Not true. Go and read the Old Testament. It is a ridiculously hate-ridden fantasy written by a paranoid and self-important people who celebrate retribution and horrific violence (not to mention themselves) as religion. I always find it funny when people try to distinguish between zionism and judaism like one is despicable while the other is utterly grounded in goodness when their only difference is the belief in a national homeland for the Jews. The central tenet of judaism is actually grounded in a racist concept; ie God having been silly and petty enough to have chosen one race of people as his own and delegating the rest to their fiefdom. If you don't see that as racist, I don't know what you will. If I told you I was black, and that I believed blacks were superior to whites because my "religion" teaches me this, would that not make me a racist? What would be the difference?
Go and read the Old Testament. It is a ridiculously hate-ridden fantasy written by a paranoid and self-important people who celebrate retribution and horrific violence (not to mention themselves) as religion.
Amazingly, sionism manages to pervert even that perversion.
Kind of like how Mormonism out-cults normal Christian religion.
Go and read the Old Testament. It is a ridiculously hate-ridden fantasy written by a paranoid and self-important people who celebrate retribution and horrific violence (not to mention themselves) as religion.
Which explains why Christianity and Islam are also shitty world views.
i get what you are saying....but there is alot of hate in every "holy" book. but some interpritations of religious holy scripters are just interpritations and have nothing to do with the message encoded within. And just about every religon believes they are superior to any other because they know what god really is or what he wants bla bla bla. zionism is just a misslead belief that a certain interpritation is true.
they whorship saturn...they observ the sabath every saturday..like christs the sun of god the sun gods followers whorship on?? SUN-day.....SOLAR CULTS......question the origins of religon. the stories are metaphors full of occult science wisdoms
The concept of Judaism/Jewish race does not exist outside Europe and Israel, certainly in the Middle East and the Muslim world Judaism is still viewed only as a religious belief. There are a lot of Jews that converted to other religions in the Middle East and they are simply accepted as non-Jews.
Personally, I think the Zionists tried to force the concept of having a Jewish ethnicity/race so they could avoid being persecuted. The whole idea is laughed upon in the Arab World as you can't identify who is a Jew by genetic tests and someone who claims to be a Mirzahi Jew is genetically identical to an Arab or a person from the Levant. The same goes for White Europeans and Ashkenazi Jews.
There is no question that the Zionist State of Israel is racist, and there is nothing wrong with that claim. I don't think Judaism is racist if you follow the true peaceful message of the Torah, but sadly a small proportion of Jews follow it these days. The only way to stop Zionism is for Jews to wake up and understand that Israel is destroying their religious belief.
Personally, I think the Zionists tried to force the concept of having a Jewish ethnicity/race so they could avoid being persecuted.
The ethnicity/race duality is also useful for justifying things. For example. a Jewish state could be regarded as a theocracy if being Jewish was strictly a religious thing. Conversely, if Israel is looked upon as apartheid because Jewish ethnic control is baked into the country's design, then it is said that being Jewish is also religious so non-ethnic Jews can be converted (which is true, but, unlike more open religions, converts require training and the approval of rabbis).
I don't think Judaism is racist if you follow the true peaceful message of the Torah
Well, you are wrong. As stated elsewhere here, the Torah is only applicable to other jews. When you start looking at the rabbinical commentary this idea becomes crystal clear.
The concept of Judaism/Jewish race does not exist outside Europe and Israel, certainly in the Middle East and the Muslim world Judaism is still viewed only as a religious belief.
True dat. The Enlightenment movement was a European 19th century Jewish movement that sought to abolish the Jewish religion and replace it with a Jewish nationality. Zionism was an outgrowth of that. It never took root in Asia Minor and North Africa so most Mizrahi Jews never even knew there was such a concept until they were refugeed to Israel.
There are a lot of Jews that converted to other religions in the Middle East and they are simply accepted as non-Jews.
Meh. Maybe there are a couple. Certainly not a lot. And I doubt you'll find any that still identify themselves as Jews.
Personally, I think the Zionists tried to force the concept of having a Jewish ethnicity/race so they could avoid being persecuted.
Probably. Again, Zionism is an outgrowth of the Enlightenment one state goal of which was to avoid persecution by dropping religion. One early Zionist plan was to have all Jews convert to Christianity.
The whole idea is laughed upon in the Arab World
I think that Judaism is misunderstood in places where there are few Jews and where anti-Jewish hostility exists, so I wouldn't put much backing on what the Arab world thinks about Jews. I would venture to guess that most Muslims in the Middle East don't understand that there is a difference between Jews, Israelis and Zionists.
There is no question that the Zionist State of Israel is racist, and there is nothing wrong with that claim.
There are more Arabs in the Knesset than there are blacks, Asians and Hispanics in Congress and the Senate. There are 2000+ strong Arabs and Druze serving in the IDF. There are Arabic TV and radio stations. Every public sign must be written in Arabic and Hebrew. Arab Israelis are generally much more supportive of the State of Israel than virtually any other Muslim group in the world. Sure there's some discrimination, but to say that "the State" is racist is taking things a little too far.
I don't think Judaism is racist if you follow the true peaceful message of the Torah, but sadly a small proportion of Jews follow it these days.
Orthodox Jews number about 30% of Israelis and 20% in the rest of the world. Out of them, about 30% are Haredi and believe that Zionism runs against the Torah (not Neturei Karta/Torah Jews against Zionism. They are a tiny fringe group of 20-30 men that has long been ostracized from even the most Anti-Zionist religious groups). Out of the remaining 70% religious Jews, a huge percentage of them are left wingers and against many practices in the State of Israel.
The only way to stop Zionism is for Jews to wake up and understand that Israel is destroying their religious belief.
Israel has actually made huge inroads into accepting religious Jews. In the 1950s they made a concentrated effort to brainwash Sephardic children that religion is outdated and Judaism=Zionism.
There are more Arabs in the Knesset than there are blacks, Asians and Hispanics in Congress and the Senate. There are 2000+ strong Arabs and Druze serving in the IDF.
That's because Arabs make up more than 20% of the population of Israel. They'd never vote for an Israeli Jew because of the crimes of Israel and the illegal occupation of Palestinian land.
Also, having only 2000 IDF soldiers from Arab and Druze origins from a total population of over 1.5 million Arabs clearly indicates that they're not happy serving in the Israeli Army.
If you want to defend the crimes of Zionist Israel you can start by explaining the illegal occupation of East Jerusalem, the West Bank, and the Golan Heights plus the Gaza blockade. There are over 350,000 illegal Israeli settlers in the West Bank alone and numbers have doubled in 12 years.
Can you explain again how anything you just said makes Israel into a racist state? By your own admission, Arabs make up 20% of the population and could vote for whomever they want and choose whether or not to serve in the army.
EDIT: And the title specified Israel and the Jewish religion. Can you explain to me the second?
But then again most religion has some kind of ego hook - "You are better than everyone else because you are a [jew, christian, muslim, buddhist, whatever] all those other deluded (gentiles, heathens, infidels, etc) are just brainwashed fools who cannot see the truth like me!"
Judaism, like Hinduism ties this superiority into your birth - your mother a (jew, brahman, khashatriya?) you're in!
I think the Jewish religion/ethnicity has some racist ideas: you can charge interest to non-Jews, but not Jews etc.
Israel is also racist, I think. I think they have some laws which say Jews can do one thing, but non-Jews cannot. Then, the whole state is based upon taking palistinian land, so yeah...
There is a great deal of variation among Jews as to how much they follow the ideas of the religion and how much they support the state.
I don't know anything racist about Judaism, but I will assume you are referring to the concept of "Chosen people" and to some aggressive quotes in the Old Testament.
Chosen People: This concept has two roots.
1)As you know, Religion is used to explain that which people have trouble explaining. Throughout all of history, Jews have been a small and persecuted group of people, but despite that they always managed to not just survive, but to play an active roll in the world. Some Jews explain this phenomena with the concept that Jews were chosen by God to be his servants. Therefore, God makes sure that Jews continue to exist and play an active roll in the world.
2) According to Judaism, God occasionally chooses a group of people to reveal more of himself to. At one point, God chose to reveal more of himself to the Jews, hence Jews were a "chosen people". But, Jews were not the first or the last to be chosen. Some directions of Judaism say that there is no group that has not been chosen. It's an abstract concept, just like God.
Also, loves all people, regardless of whether they're Jewish or not. There is a Jewish story that talks about the Jews celebrating after God drowned the Egyptians who were chasing them to make them slaves. God sees the Jews celebrating and tells them "Why are you celebrating when I have just killed so many of my children?"
Aggressive quotes in the old testament:
The old testament was written over 3000 years ago! Some parts were written almost 5000 years ago! If you take it literally and apply it to the world today, of course it's a load of crap. It's supposed to be understood non-literally, and within historical context. Jews know that, and that's why most Jews describe themselves as non-Religious, despite claiming to have a religion.
In fact, there is nothing in Judaism that supports converting others to Judaism. Judaism is a philosophy based on Jewish history. If someone non-Jewish finds it useful, great! But there is nothing in Judaism that says that everyone has to be Jewish. Other people have their own histories, and their own philosophies based on them, so it wouldn't make sense for them to have to follow the Jewish philosophy.
Culturally, Jews almost always lived as a minority, and co-existence with other cultures is a big part of Jewish culture and philosophy. Racism is considered horrible in Jewish culture.
As for Israel, it is not Racist. All Israeli citizens have equal rights, regardless of their background.
A very good Israeli friend of mine, a rabbi actually, married a Palestinian woman.
After he did this he lost his job at University of Tel Aviv and became ineligible (unofficially) for a job anywhere in Israel. He remained basically unemployed (yet publicly protested the very Zionism that ruined him) until the day he died; a third-class citizen in the country that he fought to bring into existence.
There is no way around it; Israel is a criminal apartheid terror state that is, as I type this, engaging in the very same crimes that the Nazis did before them.
What was his name? University? What form of Judaism was he a Rabbi for? You have a tendency to become remarkably forgetful and inconsistent when ask details about all of these stories that happen to 'friends' of yours.
Nice try at discrediting me there. Unfortunately (for you) you are systematically failing and just looking like an idiot.
You and I both know that I didn't "forget" one thing. I will NEVER forget the terror state of Israel--nor will I forget many of the AWESOME people that I met and am friends with 'till this day. I'm even "hosting" the rabbi's son next summer in America it looks like.
Are you fucking high? I'm not giving out his name! The poor man has been through enough.
He is an orthodox Ashkenazi Jew. His family is also involved with Neturei Karta--which is all you need to know.
If you would have read the comment I TOLD you the university (University of Tel Aviv). What are you having trouble understanding?
I posted basically his entire life's story and why he's an anti-Zionist two days ago; did you not read it? Look through my comment history if you want to know more about my "story" of how I know rabbi M and his good family.
I have no reason to "forget" anything; in fact, I said more than I should have. Don't believe me? Tough shit. I know its true and so does rabbi M--some random guy on Reddit means jack shit to me. I only come here to tell the truth and to learn the truth from others. The JIDF and ADL may not like it but they can go to hell. This information needs to be out there.
I certainly am sorry that I didn't "out" the rabbi's name but fuck you and your suggestions that I've been less than forthcoming.
I believe you picked "Neturei Karta" because it's the only Orthodox organization of anti-Zionists that is widely known (mainly due to their extreme beliefs and loud noises). The fact remains that there are less than a few dozen Neturei Karta families world wide. In 1967, when you say that he lost he job, it was even less. There are very few ordained Rabbis in the organization and precious few members who have any sort of higher secular education as they shun it by principle. To say that a Neturei Karta member or even an Orthodox Jew was a professor in Tel Aviv U, a very secular college, is very hard to believe.
If he is an Orthodox Ashkenazi Jew, he would not have married an Arab who didn't convert. If she converted, then he would not have any sort of issues with his friends and family as that is widely accepted. I think you have that part of the story wrong somehow.
You see why I am skeptical of your comments. Also when having discussions with you in the past, you've stumbled and came up with some bizarre explanations for some of your comments. The one that particularly stands out was a comment of yours on the infamous video of a group of Israelis saying that they took out their video cameras to "document the event" regarding 9/11. You confirmed that the Hebrew translation was correct. When I questioned your Hebrew speaking ability, you mentioned that you don't but your mom "understands a little". When I questioned the fact that the video was dubbed into English and the Hebrew completely missing from the audio you replied with, and I quote, "She read their lips".
So, yeah. Combined with the fact that most of your comments bolster hateful sentiment (Holocaust denial, Protocols of the Elders of Zion, etc) makes me extremely skeptical when you start with these stories of people "you know".
I had no idea what Neturei Karta was, and still do not really. I know that they are Jews against Zionism, and one of my hosts was aligned with them (though I didn't remember the name and WOULD never had until, actually, you brought it up to me). Neturei Karta had nothing to do with the meeting that I attended in Chicago, nor are they affiliated with "Jews Against Zionism"--though this is exactly what they do--Neturei Karta is mainly made up of HIGHLY Orthodox Jews who do NOT toe the Israeli's "party line" and make no bones about this fact. Most of them are located far away from me though--in New York and Israel. Rabbi M was affiliated with NK somehow but I have do idea if he was a "member" or just supported them and have not talked to him since he visited Virginia about 5 years back.
Actually, his wife DID convert--and he STILL had tons of trouble, and so did she. She is not considered a "real Jew" in Israel and is therefore WAAAY down in the pecking order--just above an Arab actually. She lost her job at the school where she worked (a Palestinian school) because it took her sometimes HOURS to make it through the FIVE checkpoints she had to cross to get into Jenin (where she was laughed at, spit on, and treated like cattle--luckily the IDF Major, when he was there, loved her and used to take his men to task when he saw this.
Please note that rabbi M didn't lose his REAL friends--he had business acquaintances he had worked with for years shun him. Merchants, service employees, that sort. But he DID lose friends. To be fair, so did his wife for converting. So much for "equality" in racist Marxist Israel, huh?
You should visit more often and see this blatant racism with your own eyes.
The video...we both know that you can hear some Hebrew--enough at points to make translations based on both sounds and lip movements--but my grandpop (long dead) was the Hebrew speaker, so I wouldn't know. My Mom can only catch words here and there. I sincerely DOUBT this translation is bad because, if so, where is the "good" one? You and I both know that, if a "correct" translation DID exist, the ADL would have rolled that bitch out years ago. The reason? The real video is the one that's up on YouTube for all of us to see. And we both know, even with assholes talking over a lot of it, that the translations were correct. The men didn't PULL OFF 9/11 after all---they were only sent here by their Mossad bosses (who DID pull off 9/11) to "document" the event. I mean, if fake that overdubbed vid could have said--"these men know that they were working for the people who brought down WTC--what do they have to say??"
They said almost nothing--nothing that implicated themselves or Mossad. Good little soldiers.
Anyhow, what would the explanation be from these "dancing Israelis"?? "Oh, were just Mossad agents, and were having some fun with our new cameras taking pix of both planes crashing that we had prior knowledge of AND photographing out lit Zippos in front of the demolished wreckage! Yeah, it's PRETTY WEIRD that we had a camera rolling when the first and second airplanes hit...and then the Bergen NJ police find us, our cameras, $5k in cash in an old sock, and explosives residue WHILE WE JUST HAPPEN to be dressed in Arab garb and telling the police that "Palestinians are your problem, not us!"
Do you not consider this "news??" Hell, it's the fucking smoking gun!
Yet, the MSM buried it as usual.
I am now more convinced than ever than you are smoking crack...at least a little right? You can tell me.
I played that video MONTHS ago to a deaf-mute who both speaks Hebrew AND ASL and he confirms that the english overdub is accurate (from what he can see)--with the exception of a few non-critical words. If YOU would like to do the same thing bring the video over to a shul for the disabled. We have nearly 10 within 50 miles from me and they'd be happy to help you.
Be skeptical all you'd like--I have nothing to hide. Trust me--the way things are going in the world right now I wish I was not Jewish! The backlash is coming and coming fast. Finkelstein, Kissinger, etc. are correct with that fact!
Sorry I'm not a "good Jew" so things more deeply involved in Judaism are not going to be things that I know about. In fact, I didn't even begin my fight against Zionism until after my grandpop died--so I am just getting started learning and speaking out. I'm also slowly learning Hebrew.
Thanks for your comment anyways! Sorry it didn't have its intended effect, but thanks.
Of course there's idiots who discriminate, but according to Israeli law, all citizens have equal rights. If you regularly read Israeli news, you will find that the government does a LOT to stop such illegal forms of discrimination.
I don't know what country you're from, but I'm sure there are examples of discrimination there that some people create on their own, without the law on their side.
So next time you want to tell someone to shut the fuck up, sit the fuck down and think about it first.
Or it means the government hasn't yet succeeded in or finished responding;) Even if there had been no government response (although there have been several responses) it doesn't change the fact that according to the law, all citizens have equal rights.
Seriously, are you a troll? Trolls usually make wittier comments, but maybe you're just a noob troll.
As for Israel, it is not Racist. All Israeli citizens have equal rights, regardless of their background.
Except that the notion that the state must be controlled by Jews is baked into the country's DNA: it's a democracy founded on enshrining the dominance of one demographic. If you're a different race living in Israel, you're always going to know in the back of your mind that you're not part of the ruling tribe.
Actually, non-Jews get elected into office in Israel, and are generals in Israel's army, and work as government ministers too. Jews are the majority of the population, so of course they're the majority of the leaders, but they are not the only leaders. There is no law in Israel that says that to have a certain position someone has to be Jewish.
Just like in France of England or any other democracy, you don't have to be French of English to be in government, but the majority of the people are. Sure, if you're not English and living in England you will always know that you're not part of the ruling tribe, but as long as the law treats you equally, its okay.
What does religion have to do with this? Jews are an ethnic group. Israel in a secular state. There are religious political parties in Israel, but they get very little votes. France is a French state, and England is an English state.
Many people think Jews are a religious and not an ethnic group, because as mentioned above, Judaism doesn't preach converting people, so the Jewish people's religion never spread much beyond the ethnic group that created it. When Israelis call Israel the Jewish state, they mean the Israelite state, not the state founded on Judaism.
And Israeli is the adjective form of Israel? (Israelite is the personal noun form of israel, so to say "israel is the israelite state" is redundant and nonsensical. Change the words out and see how much sense it makes. When Americans call America the christian nation, they mean the American nation, not the nation founded on Christianity)
"Jewish" has two meanings, one being the adjective form of Judaism, and the other being the adjective form of Jews. Israelite is an older word for Jews, just like Hebrews. Jews have been around for a while, so there are more than one word to describe them. Israeli is the adjective form of Israel the country. Israelite is used only to refer to a person. Here's why:
There's a people called the Hebrews. According to Hebrew legend, all Hebrews are descendant from a guy named Israel. So, the Hebrews also call themselves Israelites. At one point, the Hebrews/Israelites create a country and name it "Israel" after their legendary common ancestor.
There was a province of Israel called Judea. At a later point in history, it becomes it's own country. Shortly after that, the rest of Israel got conquered. Some time after that, Judea reclaimed the lands of the rest of Israel that were previously conquered. The "new" Hebrew/Israelite state was officially still called Judea, but some loosely called it Israel. The Hebrews/Israelites who lived there started being called Judeans, and other Hebrews/Israelites around the world started being called Judeans regardless of whether they were from the province Judea.
So, the Judeans/Hebrew/Israelites, have a religion that only they follow. It's based on Judean/Hebrew/Israelite history, so people started calling the religion "Judaism". Kind of like lumping Greek culture, philosophy, mythology, and religion together and calling it "Greekism".
Jew is a short form of Judean, which was originally a derogatory term, but became accepted in the western countries as a normal term. Today, the word Jewish can be an adjective of anything relating to Jews, including but not limited to the Jewish religion Judaism.
So back to Judea/Israel... It was later conquered by Romans, and then Arabs, and then someone else, and then Turks, and then English, and then with cooperating with the English the Jews/Judeans/Hebrews/Israelites got it back again. They officially called it Israel. Anything from there is called "Israeli". It wouldn't make sense to call anything from there "Israelite" because Israelite is only used to refer to people.
Thing is, in the English world, the word commonly used to refer to Israelites is "Jews", so when speaking English, people call Israel the Jewish state. In Russia, for example, the proper way to refer to Israelites is Hebrews, so when speaking Russian, people call Israel the Hebrew state.
The fact that the name of the Jewish religion sounds similar to the English way of referring to the Jewish ethnic group, does create confusion. Hopefully I cleared that up for you.
Wait, so why don't we just use the word israelite to refer to the ethnic group?
It couldn't be because there are a lot of muslims who would meet that criteria could it?
naw
no chance
Oh and by the way
According to the state of israel
Jewish has a very specific meaning
If you are jewish you get citizenship!
and guess what
according to their definition
Sammy davis jr. isn't jewish
Oh and all this semantics surrounding the "jewish state"
its all doublespeak
You just admitted that it's doublespeak
It allows people to be racist while at the same time claiming they are not
It is disgusting and your attempts to defend it are the same
Your philosophy is as morally bankrupt as your theology
At the end of the day
You cannot deny
The word jewish is inherently exclusive
So when you say "jewish democracy"
you are saying
"exclusive democracy"
which is an oxymoron
as democracy means inclusive
Oh and the fact that you use religious mythology which has been thoroughly disproven by archaeology and anthropology - it doesn't make me trust your intellect very much or your critical reasoning
then again the fact that you have to type this much to explain how "jewish state" isn't racist/exclusive
Jewish means one thing when speaking with the general public
It means quite another when speaking with other "jews"
Those with intellectual honesty who have jewish heritage but do not practice judaism do not call themselves jewish. They call themselves of jewish heritage.
These language games have got to stop
I know what you mean
I don't think you know what I mean
Because you are obscuring it from your awareness
intentionally
because you're jewish
so to admit some nefarious intent on the part of the jewish state
is to admit your own nefarious intent
which you may or may not have
but my aligning your identity with that of the modern "israeli secular jew"
Did you even read what I wrote? Or were you too busy writing poems? "Israelite" does refer to the ethnic group. It's just not used as commonly as its synonym "Jew".
I love how you argue that the fact that I wrote a lot is just cause to discredit me. Some things require a lot of writing to explain, and a lot of reading to understand;) Not everything is as simple to explain and understand as the latest trendy conspiracy theory.
Few other ethnicities have been around as long as the Jews. Few other ethnicities follow a religion that doesn't preach conversion, and hence are approximately the only ethnic group following that religion. Few other ethnicities have to deal with people denying their identity and their right to live in their country. Few ethnicities have a homeland on land as stretegic for empires to control, as Israel. No other ethnicities fit all of the above conditions. I agree, Jews are a unique group, that call for unique explanations.
Jews have been around for roughly 4000 years. It's no surprise that they've been called by different names throughout the years, and no surprise that that could cause confusion. The overwhelming majority of today's ethnic groups are much younger than the Jews, so of course explaining Jewish history is more complicated than explaining the history of the average ethnic group.
So when faced with something more complicated than average, you can try extra hard to try to understand it, or you can say "There's no way something could be this complicated. It must be a lie". I recommend the former.
Not quite sure what you're saying, but I didn't invent the English language, and I agree the English language has its imperfections. "Jewish" is a strange word especially because it's an adjective form of a former slang term turned proper. If Jews were still called "Judeans" and Israel was still called "Judea", there'd be no confusion, right?
After I became interested in the subject, I read about it from many different respectable sources, and they all converged on the details I've told you. It's a good thing I wasn't too lazy to do a lot of reading from a lot of different sources. I'm interested in reading about all history in general, and have read a lot about history of different corners of the world, and talked to people from those corners. Having a greater grasp of general history also helps see a clearer picture of specific conflicts, such as this one.
This conversation is getting boring. I grew out of name-calling a while ago. You have access to official sources, and can read it yourself. Unless you have genuine questions for me that don't accuse me of being brainwashed, there's no point in continuing this conversation.
People who claim to personally know the will of god are in my opinion by definition insane. You are such a person. You think god told your ancestors some secret knowledge. I think that is insane
Actually, I don't think or claim what you accuse me of thinking and claiming. I'm not religious. I was just explaining what the Jewish religion says in the most literal interpretation, to explain that it's not racist.
I even wrote in my original reply, that if you take the religious writings literally, they're a load of crap. I guess you didn't read that part. You really shouldn't be too lazy to read long pieces of writing. It would have saved us a lot of time and misunderstandings.
Israel doesn't fight wars for religious goals. Israel fights wars for survival, because countries around Israel want to destroy Israel for religious goals.
...All Israeli citizens have equal rights, regardless of their background
This is meant to be a joke, right?
Because, my friend, NOTHING is further from the truth.
Try being an Israeli citizen as an Israeli Arab.
I have seen this with my own eyes! There is BLATANT racism in every single aspect of day-to-day Israeli life--from the jobs you can get to the roads you can drive on.
Basically, Ashkenazi Jews receive the benefits of full citizens. Diaspora Jews from America come second. Next are the Sephardic Jews, followed by the "lesser" Jews (as they call them)--African Jews and the like. These are followed by Arab Jews.
Finally, at the very bottom, are the Moslems and the Christians.
That's what cracks me up about Christian Zionists. If they spent ONE HOUR in Israel they would realize that Israelis are NO friends to Christians! I watched a totally white-bread American Christian family get mercilessly teased, yelled at, and spit on by nearly 15 people JUST BECAUSE they were Christians. It was utterly disgusting--and this was NOT a unique situation. There are hundreds of vids on YouTube showing the same thing--the JIDF has removed most of them, but there are still some left.
Israel is, far and away, the most racist rogue terror state since 1939 Germany. Period.
I don't know what parts of Israel you or the people making those youtube videos go to, but I know Israeli Arabs and Israeli Christians, and they get equal rights, and enjoy visiting their Israel, and wouldn't trade Israel for any other country in the region. The Christians especially, because Christian Arabs get oppressed by Muslim Arabs. Sure there are racist people in Israel like in every country, and there are neighborhoods where Arabs shouldn't go, and there are neighborhoods where Jews shouldn't go, but overall and legally, everyone has equal rights. I suggest not forming your opinions of a place from youtube.
Yes! God damn!! The partying! I'm glad you enjoyed the country.
See, the country's not perfect, but it's doing a pretty good job considering the surroundings it has to deal with. People from other countries in the region want Israel destroyed and replaced with a country that's backwards in modernity. Israel is not the country that can be compared to Nazi Germany. It's Israel's neighbors that act like Nazi Germany, and are proud of it. That's why Israel has to fight for survival. Israelis hate fighting, but they hate dying even more.
Well, we both agree that the IsraelI people are not the problem.
The people I met in Israel were the best ever; Jews and Arabs both. They were also, by FAR, more aware and awake re: world issues than any group of folks that I've ever met. My host family in Israel were both antizionists and fighters for the rights of the Palestinian people.
Plus, as I said, NOBODY knows how to party like the Israelis! Strange when you remember that in Israel even energy drinks are illegal...yet ecstasy is consumed like Tylenol! :-)
Indeed, I never had as much fun as I did in Tel Aviv. Great people, great music, great fun all around.
I just pray the Zionists don't force Israel into a war that is unwanted by the people...VERY many Israelis that I met did not like their government all that much. I was there before Rabin was killed and peace was this close! It totally sucked when I found out that, inevitably, he was murdered. Very sad; if allowed to live Israel would have been a far better place IMHO.
I don't think saving Rabin would have created peace to be honest. It also wasn't the only time that Israel was close to making a peace deal. If peace were to ever come to Israel, it would leave Palestinian terrorist organizations with no more source of cash. The terrorists know this, and that's why whenever Israel comes close to a peace deal, terrorists attack Israel, provoking a response, and the peace deal falls through. This pattern continues to this day.
If Rabin had been saved, I see no reason why the same pattern wouldn't still continue. Look what happened with Gaza. The whole territory was returned, and as a result the situation got less peaceful. Today many Gazans (especially women) are quietly talking about how much better it was under Israeli rule.
Also, what do you mean by the word "Zionist"? The word is used to mean different things, and I just want to be sure I understand you correctly.
The powerful thing about religion is that one person can read a holy text and become a champion for human rights, and another can read the same text and become a genocidal mass-murderer.
I don't see your point. As a person with a Jewish ancestry I acknowledge the Jewish government is but so are most governments regardless of religion. Am I automatically racist since my mother's family is Jewish?
The Jewish religion is interesting. Did you know that they used to practice ritual animal sacrifice called "Burnt Offering"? The word for this practice was "Holocaust." That's where the word Holocaust comes from - Judaic Ritual sacrifice in which the animal is completely burned up. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_(sacrifice) Now, can someone explain to me why the Jewish people would choose to refer to the German genocide in which the Jews were burned in ovens, using their own word from their religion for ritual sacrifice?
Oh don't get me wrong. There is a ritualistic elements in the 'holocaust'. That is what I am helping you out with with the link I gave you. You just shouldn't label it as 'Jewish'. I think that the whole 'Jesus as God out, Jews as Gods in' thing is a purely Pseudo-Christian thing. The embarrassment of damning people on theological grounds being replaced with the arrogance of damning them on materialistic / scientific grounds being their (the pseudo-Christians) relief alone. You are not going to burn in hell you are going to burn on a material Darwinian earth etc. Everybody else is a lot more confused.
Real Jews know that is forbidden to have a state or a kingdom. Real Jews believe in Tikkun Olam and don't pray for bombs to drop. Real Jews are NOT Zionists.
Hmm... Since Jewish people can be of many different races I do not think their religious stance of being better then non-jews could really be classified as racism.
edit: are you confusing racism with discrimination?
I'm fully versed in evolutionary biology, religion creates separation between people, which creates race. But Judaism functionally creates much more separation, and they are very focused on making sure you have the right racial origins.
Race is an entirely human-made concept that has nothing to back it up. You are more genetically similar to people who look different than people who look 'the same.'
The same is true of dog breeds. A poodle has more in common genetically speaking with a jack Russell than it does with other poodles. So tell me again how this fact doesn't apply to humans and heritable traits like intelligence?
Its true but not a popular topic and many attempts have been made to de bunk the idea. Neither of these articles are going to give you an easy read but at the heart of them lies what I typed above.
I am not saying one breed of dog or race of person is superior but we are different. Then add in the other fact that all non Africans are 2-4% neanderthal and then you really have to say we are not the same.
"… there is less mtDNA difference between dogs, wolves, and coyotes than there is between the various ethnic groups of human beings, which are recognized as a single species. (Coppinger & Schneider, 1995)"
lolwut?
mtdna = mitcochondrial dna = doesn't really determine phenotypic traits for the most part (aside from metabolic disorders)
I think you have Jewish religion mixed up with the majority of all religions. The vast majority of religions in general create a culture of "us" vs. "them". The situation in the middle east is filled with hatred on both sides. Think about it using the common analogy of Iran being surrounded by US military based. It's the same situation for Israel, they are surrounded by countries who do not want them there. The only thing maintaining that balance is Israel's vast military/US(NATO) support. Saying this doesn't excuse Israels behavior towards Palestine, I just feel more context should be added to this discussion.
That's because Israel shouldn't exist. There was a lot of Jews living in Jerusalem before the creation of the state of Israel. The west just decided that the Jews needed a homeland, and that's why there's all this fucking problems.
Not true. Have you even read the New Testament? Jesus taught his disciples to love their enemies and to be meek and humble. Jesus taught that the first shall be last and the last shall be first while the Jews of the Old Testament teach that the Jews shall always be first because God wills it. Jesus blessed the Gentile woman who pleaded for his help. Jesus never once said it's us versus them. I agree that this is how most christians think but that is only because they haven't read their New Testaments, or because they have listened to their corrupted religious institutions which have fed them lies about how the Old Testament and New Testament are one book written by God that therefore must be interpreted as one message (which is impossible). The Old Testament (judaism) an New Testament (christianity) couldn't be ANY MORE DIFFERENT. The messages contained in each of these texts are absolutely irreconcilable.
If anyone actually took on board the teachings of the first four books of the New Testament, the world would be a great place (I say that as a lifelong atheist).
Sadly, no one does.
I mean holy fuck, look at the all the rich Christians - one of the biggest and most obvious pieces of hypocrisy you can see.
I agree with this more than words can express. I can't even join a Church or faith-based community because it makes me crazy to see how unChrist-like these self-described christians can be.
I hear what you are saying, but I am not going to cast down the book or the message because the people reading it are idiots. I mean, it's pretty fucking clear what message Jesus intended to convey in the story of the New Testament.
And again, if the people are idiots, shouldn't the book be simpler?
I mean god made the people right?
why make people and then write a guide for them that they can't understand?
doesn't make sense to me (like most of the bible)
"Isn't it strange how the game change the face of the innocent? Plus the face of the guilty too - dude I'm in the court shouting out not guilty dude! What's real to me might not be real to you! But you should feel me dude."
If it's so clear, how do you explain all these racist evangelicals? white christian slave owners thruout history? the inquisition? the catholic pedophillia scandal? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre - perpetrated by christians
I can't explain these things. They are wrong. Jesus did not condone such behavior in the story of the New Testament.
The behavior of the people who participated in those events cannot be reconciled with the message of the Christ. Period. I cannot explain to you how they believed they were following in his message while enslaving or killing or doing violence to other people because this is absolutely not permitted under the law of the New Testament. This is not Christlike behavior.
I cannot explain to you how they believed they were following in his message while enslaving or killing or doing violence to other people because this is absolutely not permitted under the law of the New Testament.
I think you mean
"This is not permitted under my understanding of the law of the new testament"
Any text which does not confer instant understanding is not perfect or infallible.
Obviously people can read the same book and come away with a different message. Are you going to try to say these people didn't read the bible?
"By the end of the Medieval period, enslavement of Christians had been largely abolished throughout Europe, although enslavement of non-Christians remained an open question."
"Since the Middle Ages, the Christian understanding of slavery has seen significant internal conflict and endured dramatic change. Nearly all Christian leaders before the late 17th century regarded slavery as consistent with Christian theology"
It took reading that book for 1600 years to figure out that slavery is wrong?
What a great book it must be!!!!
like OMG
like for reals
oh my god
so good
good god
god damn
soul vibrations
why hate it?
when you really could be lovin it
you know we holdin that heat like an oven mitt
The fact that people can be this devout (you cannot argue that some of the worst sinners have been some of the most devout christians - the inquisitors, these phalange militias, slave owning confederates who were extremely religious; as a side note, jesus tells a slave to obey his master, as his master should obey god. kinda fucked up if you ask me - he even recommends a slave return himself to his owner. but yeah no way to misconstrue that message!)
First explain why they you feel that they are, and I'll attempt to answer you. You do understand that you are discussing two entirely different things, right? The State of Israel has nothing to do with the Jewish religion and vice versa.
Yes, but the whole original concept of Zionism rejected the notion that Judaism is a religion and sought to create a secular state. Here's a bit of light googling, check out these things and get back to me on how you feel.
Theodore Herzl
Labor Zionism
Zionism and Religion
The Jewish People
Altneuland
Der Judenstaadt
Menachem Begin
Haredim and Zionism
Who is a Jew?
EDIT: Not to mention many famous Atheists, such as Christopher Hitchens and Albert Einstein, identified themselves as being Jewish.
Ok, not "nothing at all" but much less than people think. Did you know that all the founders of Zionism and almost every Prime Minister of Israel were Atheists?
Zionism is a secular belief based on the Jewish ethnicity.
There's a connection. But at the end of the day, you're talking about two different entities and concepts. One: The State of Israel, a (mostly) secular political entity that controls most of the land and people between the Mediterranian and Jordan. And two: the Jewish religion. A religion followed by many people around the world and some 20-40% of Israelis.
""A Jewish and Democratic State" is the definition of the nature and character of the State of Israel, as the Jewish nature was first defined within the Declaration of Independence of 1948, and the "Democratic" character was first officially added to the "Jewish" nature in the amendment to the Basic Law: the Knesset that was passed in 1985 (amendment 9, clause 7A)."
got any more lies for me?
you really aren't helping the reputation (which I personally don't believe) that jews are intentionally mislead gentiles for their own benefit
I'm not sure where you got your facts from and what you mean by "disproven by genetic studies". The only genetic studies I know of show that all Jews from almost all areas of the world show genetic similarities.
Who cares what he was? The fact is that he, like many many others, defined Judaism as something separate from religion. Why are you consistently denying that this is so?
Ok, so Jewish is a social convention. To a lot of people it's a secular social convention. Including the definition used in the founding of the State of Israel. I can bring you references if you want (you so far have brought none). Start with Herzls work, The Jewish State. Read carefully the chapter where he state very explicitly that "The State must not be a Theocracy". Then get back to me.
I will answer every question you have provided you refute my claims that Israel is a secular Jewish state.
I'm am providing you with propaganda. But it's propaganda aimed at secular Jews, and is obvious as such. I am also providing you with objective sources, such as Wikipedia. If you will refuse to even look at it, then I guess you will just choose to be as brainwashed and closed minded as all the "sheeple" this subreddit is meant to ridicule.
People who are religiously Jewish are also ethnically Jewish. There are many religious Jews (Haredim, which make up about 10% of Israeli society) who do not consider Israel to be "their" State. It's just where they live.
First answer this: Is Woody Allen Jewish? Is he an Atheist? What about Einstein? Herzl? Hitchens?
The answer for all of them, as everyone knows, is yes. Now, if Judaism is , as you claim, just a religion, how do you explain that? You have yet to answer that one simple question that is the underlying root of our argument. No more questions, answer me first. And answer my previous arguments to your opinion that Israel is a Theocratic State.
"In the registering of "nationality" on Israeli Teudat Zehut ("identity card"), which is administered by the Ministry of the Interior, a person had to meet the halakhic definition to be registered as a "Jew"."
halakhic definition = your mother was a practicing religious jew or descended maternally from one
"As a result, mere belief in the principles of Judaism does not make one a Jew. Similarly, non-adherence by a Jew to the 613 Mitzvot, or even formal conversion to another faith, does not make one lose one's Jewish status. Thus the immediate descendants of all female Jews (even apostates) are still considered to be Jews, as are those of all their female descendants. Even those descendants who are not aware they are Jews, or practice a faith other than Judaism, are defined by this perspective as Jews, as long as they come from an unbroken female line of descent. As a corollary, the children of a Jewish father and a non-Jewish mother are not considered to be Jews by halakha unless they formally convert according to halakha, even if raised fully observant in the mitzvot"
so basically yeah its not a religion, it's institutionalized racism
way better!
It is also a great way to guarantee inbreeding - No jewish man is going to marry outside his tribe if it means cursing his descendants
Keep everything "in the family" as it were
Also explains all the genetic diseases ashkenazi jews get
Just like purebreed dogs have all kinds of genetic issues from years of inbreeding
Ashkenazi's have them from millenia of it
And this isn't a racist statement, it is a statement of fact. Just like irish people have red hair and pale skin (everyone living on an island? there's gonna be some in breeding) or british royalty have hemophilia, or icelandic people have pale skin and white hair
n. After the establishment of the state of Israel, the Israel Lands Authority oversaw the administration of these properties. On 8 March 2000, the Israeli Supreme Court ruled that Israeli Arabs, too, had an equal right to purchase long-term leases of such land, even inside previously solely Jewish communities and villages.
Took 50 years to acknowledge that arabs have the same property rights as jews
In 2007, the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination reported that Palestinians and Israeli settlers in the occupied territories are subject to different criminal laws, leading to longer detention and harsher punishments for Palestinians than for Israelis for the same offenses
Not true. Have you even read the New Testament? Jesus taught his disciples to love their enemies and to be meek and humble. Jesus taught that the first shall be last and the last shall be first while the Jews of the Old Testament teach that the Jews shall always be first because God wills it. Jesus blessed the Gentile woman who pleaded for his help. Jesus never once said it's us versus them. I agree that this is how most christians think but that is only because they haven't read their New Testaments, or because they have listened to their corrupted religious institutions which have fed them lies about how the Old Testament and New Testament are one book written by God that therefore must be interpreted as one message (which is impossible). The Old Testament (judaism) an New Testament (christianity) couldn't be ANY MORE DIFFERENT. The messages contained in each of these texts are absolutely irreconcilable.
That's because Israel shouldn't exist. There was a lot of Jews living in Jerusalem before the creation of the state of Israel. The west just decided that the Jews needed a homeland, and that's why there's all this fucking problems.
As for Israel, it is not Racist. All Israeli citizens have equal rights, regardless of their background.
Except that the notion that the state must be controlled by Jews is baked into the country's DNA: it's a democracy founded on enshrining the dominance of one demographic. If you're a different race living in Israel, you're always going to know in the back of your mind that you're not part of the ruling tribe.
...All Israeli citizens have equal rights, regardless of their background
This is meant to be a joke, right?
Because, my friend, NOTHING is further from the truth.
Try being an Israeli citizen as an Israeli Arab.
I have seen this with my own eyes! There is BLATANT racism in every single aspect of day-to-day Israeli life--from the jobs you can get to the roads you can drive on.
Basically, Ashkenazi Jews receive the benefits of full citizens. Diaspora Jews from America come second. Next are the Sephardic Jews, followed by the "lesser" Jews (as they call them)--African Jews and the like. These are followed by Arab Jews.
Finally, at the very bottom, are the Moslems and the Christians.
That's what cracks me up about Christian Zionists. If they spent ONE HOUR in Israel they would realize that Israelis are NO friends to Christians! I watched a totally white-bread American Christian family get mercilessly teased, yelled at, and spit on by nearly 15 people JUST BECAUSE they were Christians. It was utterly disgusting--and this was NOT a unique situation. There are hundreds of vids on YouTube showing the same thing--the JIDF has removed most of them, but there are still some left.
Israel is, far and away, the most racist rogue terror state since 1939 Germany. Period.
150 comments
17 weakmoves 2012-10-05
zionism is what you are talking about. its a hijacked real judiasm and replaced it with a theo-political physco club
25 SonOfMan11 2012-10-05
Not true. Go and read the Old Testament. It is a ridiculously hate-ridden fantasy written by a paranoid and self-important people who celebrate retribution and horrific violence (not to mention themselves) as religion. I always find it funny when people try to distinguish between zionism and judaism like one is despicable while the other is utterly grounded in goodness when their only difference is the belief in a national homeland for the Jews. The central tenet of judaism is actually grounded in a racist concept; ie God having been silly and petty enough to have chosen one race of people as his own and delegating the rest to their fiefdom. If you don't see that as racist, I don't know what you will. If I told you I was black, and that I believed blacks were superior to whites because my "religion" teaches me this, would that not make me a racist? What would be the difference?
13 WarHymn 2012-10-05
No where in the Old Testament can you find evidence god cared for anybody outside of the Jews. The Old Testament god is racist that's for sure.
6 mothereffingteresa 2012-10-05
Amazingly, sionism manages to pervert even that perversion.
Kind of like how Mormonism out-cults normal Christian religion.
5 greenw40 2012-10-05
Which explains why Christianity and Islam are also shitty world views.
7 [deleted] 2012-10-05
[deleted]
-1 sh3rog 2012-10-05
oh much better
" all the people who don't think like I do will be punished for all eternity"
sounds like a conspiracy theorists dream!
5 txstoploss 2012-10-05
That's why I use the term "Abrahamic Triad of Terror", because they all "worship" a petty, vindictive "god" with the brain of a five-year-old.
2 [deleted] 2012-10-05
[deleted]
2 iknowwhatyoumeme 2012-10-05
Nice reference. Must re-read the preacher books.
2 weakmoves 2012-10-05
i get what you are saying....but there is alot of hate in every "holy" book. but some interpritations of religious holy scripters are just interpritations and have nothing to do with the message encoded within. And just about every religon believes they are superior to any other because they know what god really is or what he wants bla bla bla. zionism is just a misslead belief that a certain interpritation is true.
2 DwarvenPirate 2012-10-05
Israel is founded upon the idea of land for jewish people. If jewish is a race, it is racist by definition.
1 weakmoves 2012-10-05
they whorship saturn...they observ the sabath every saturday..like christs the sun of god the sun gods followers whorship on?? SUN-day.....SOLAR CULTS......question the origins of religon. the stories are metaphors full of occult science wisdoms
1 szalinski 2012-10-05
zionism is just a cover word
16 [deleted] 2012-10-05
Strict Judaism is pretty racist.
15 findnotruth 2012-10-05
Even the Israeli youth are racist. They don't believe that Arabic people should have equal political rights.
Basically all hardcore religious sects are xenophobic assholes.
3 cancerbotX 2012-10-05
oligarchy and religion its all the fucking same to me
10 Redhawk1000 2012-10-05
The concept of Judaism/Jewish race does not exist outside Europe and Israel, certainly in the Middle East and the Muslim world Judaism is still viewed only as a religious belief. There are a lot of Jews that converted to other religions in the Middle East and they are simply accepted as non-Jews.
Personally, I think the Zionists tried to force the concept of having a Jewish ethnicity/race so they could avoid being persecuted. The whole idea is laughed upon in the Arab World as you can't identify who is a Jew by genetic tests and someone who claims to be a Mirzahi Jew is genetically identical to an Arab or a person from the Levant. The same goes for White Europeans and Ashkenazi Jews.
There is no question that the Zionist State of Israel is racist, and there is nothing wrong with that claim. I don't think Judaism is racist if you follow the true peaceful message of the Torah, but sadly a small proportion of Jews follow it these days. The only way to stop Zionism is for Jews to wake up and understand that Israel is destroying their religious belief.
5 selfchosen2 2012-10-05
The ethnicity/race duality is also useful for justifying things. For example. a Jewish state could be regarded as a theocracy if being Jewish was strictly a religious thing. Conversely, if Israel is looked upon as apartheid because Jewish ethnic control is baked into the country's design, then it is said that being Jewish is also religious so non-ethnic Jews can be converted (which is true, but, unlike more open religions, converts require training and the approval of rabbis).
3 DwarvenPirate 2012-10-05
Well, you are wrong. As stated elsewhere here, the Torah is only applicable to other jews. When you start looking at the rabbinical commentary this idea becomes crystal clear.
0 Yserbius 2012-10-05
True dat. The Enlightenment movement was a European 19th century Jewish movement that sought to abolish the Jewish religion and replace it with a Jewish nationality. Zionism was an outgrowth of that. It never took root in Asia Minor and North Africa so most Mizrahi Jews never even knew there was such a concept until they were refugeed to Israel.
Meh. Maybe there are a couple. Certainly not a lot. And I doubt you'll find any that still identify themselves as Jews.
Probably. Again, Zionism is an outgrowth of the Enlightenment one state goal of which was to avoid persecution by dropping religion. One early Zionist plan was to have all Jews convert to Christianity.
I think that Judaism is misunderstood in places where there are few Jews and where anti-Jewish hostility exists, so I wouldn't put much backing on what the Arab world thinks about Jews. I would venture to guess that most Muslims in the Middle East don't understand that there is a difference between Jews, Israelis and Zionists.
There are more Arabs in the Knesset than there are blacks, Asians and Hispanics in Congress and the Senate. There are 2000+ strong Arabs and Druze serving in the IDF. There are Arabic TV and radio stations. Every public sign must be written in Arabic and Hebrew. Arab Israelis are generally much more supportive of the State of Israel than virtually any other Muslim group in the world. Sure there's some discrimination, but to say that "the State" is racist is taking things a little too far.
Orthodox Jews number about 30% of Israelis and 20% in the rest of the world. Out of them, about 30% are Haredi and believe that Zionism runs against the Torah (not Neturei Karta/Torah Jews against Zionism. They are a tiny fringe group of 20-30 men that has long been ostracized from even the most Anti-Zionist religious groups). Out of the remaining 70% religious Jews, a huge percentage of them are left wingers and against many practices in the State of Israel.
Israel has actually made huge inroads into accepting religious Jews. In the 1950s they made a concentrated effort to brainwash Sephardic children that religion is outdated and Judaism=Zionism.
10 Limbo_Arab 2012-10-05
That's because Arabs make up more than 20% of the population of Israel. They'd never vote for an Israeli Jew because of the crimes of Israel and the illegal occupation of Palestinian land.
Also, having only 2000 IDF soldiers from Arab and Druze origins from a total population of over 1.5 million Arabs clearly indicates that they're not happy serving in the Israeli Army.
If you want to defend the crimes of Zionist Israel you can start by explaining the illegal occupation of East Jerusalem, the West Bank, and the Golan Heights plus the Gaza blockade. There are over 350,000 illegal Israeli settlers in the West Bank alone and numbers have doubled in 12 years.
Seriously take this hasbara crap somewhere else.
-6 Yserbius 2012-10-05
Can you explain again how anything you just said makes Israel into a racist state? By your own admission, Arabs make up 20% of the population and could vote for whomever they want and choose whether or not to serve in the army.
EDIT: And the title specified Israel and the Jewish religion. Can you explain to me the second?
4 sh3rog 2012-10-05
Uhm all those settlers taking other peoples land?
They are all jewish
the peoples land being taken - all muslim
and the courts?
side with the settlers 9/10 times
that is racist
0 sh3rog 2012-10-05
The jewish religion is totally racist dude
It says god chooses favorites based on ethnicity!
Super racist
But then again most religion has some kind of ego hook - "You are better than everyone else because you are a [jew, christian, muslim, buddhist, whatever] all those other deluded (gentiles, heathens, infidels, etc) are just brainwashed fools who cannot see the truth like me!"
Judaism, like Hinduism ties this superiority into your birth - your mother a (jew, brahman, khashatriya?) you're in!
No?
too bad :-(
god didn't choose you
5 SonOfMan11 2012-10-05
That's because they are. Welcome to the club of evolved (and yet somehow "politically incorrect") humans.
4 funkarama 2012-10-05
I think the Jewish religion/ethnicity has some racist ideas: you can charge interest to non-Jews, but not Jews etc.
Israel is also racist, I think. I think they have some laws which say Jews can do one thing, but non-Jews cannot. Then, the whole state is based upon taking palistinian land, so yeah...
There is a great deal of variation among Jews as to how much they follow the ideas of the religion and how much they support the state.
2 redpen44 2012-10-05
You have been misinformed.
I don't know anything racist about Judaism, but I will assume you are referring to the concept of "Chosen people" and to some aggressive quotes in the Old Testament.
Chosen People: This concept has two roots.
1)As you know, Religion is used to explain that which people have trouble explaining. Throughout all of history, Jews have been a small and persecuted group of people, but despite that they always managed to not just survive, but to play an active roll in the world. Some Jews explain this phenomena with the concept that Jews were chosen by God to be his servants. Therefore, God makes sure that Jews continue to exist and play an active roll in the world.
2) According to Judaism, God occasionally chooses a group of people to reveal more of himself to. At one point, God chose to reveal more of himself to the Jews, hence Jews were a "chosen people". But, Jews were not the first or the last to be chosen. Some directions of Judaism say that there is no group that has not been chosen. It's an abstract concept, just like God.
Also, loves all people, regardless of whether they're Jewish or not. There is a Jewish story that talks about the Jews celebrating after God drowned the Egyptians who were chasing them to make them slaves. God sees the Jews celebrating and tells them "Why are you celebrating when I have just killed so many of my children?"
Aggressive quotes in the old testament:
The old testament was written over 3000 years ago! Some parts were written almost 5000 years ago! If you take it literally and apply it to the world today, of course it's a load of crap. It's supposed to be understood non-literally, and within historical context. Jews know that, and that's why most Jews describe themselves as non-Religious, despite claiming to have a religion.
In fact, there is nothing in Judaism that supports converting others to Judaism. Judaism is a philosophy based on Jewish history. If someone non-Jewish finds it useful, great! But there is nothing in Judaism that says that everyone has to be Jewish. Other people have their own histories, and their own philosophies based on them, so it wouldn't make sense for them to have to follow the Jewish philosophy.
Culturally, Jews almost always lived as a minority, and co-existence with other cultures is a big part of Jewish culture and philosophy. Racism is considered horrible in Jewish culture.
As for Israel, it is not Racist. All Israeli citizens have equal rights, regardless of their background.
11 funnymanisi 2012-10-05
Shut the fuck up.
11 [deleted] 2012-10-05
Oh really?
A very good Israeli friend of mine, a rabbi actually, married a Palestinian woman.
After he did this he lost his job at University of Tel Aviv and became ineligible (unofficially) for a job anywhere in Israel. He remained basically unemployed (yet publicly protested the very Zionism that ruined him) until the day he died; a third-class citizen in the country that he fought to bring into existence.
There is no way around it; Israel is a criminal apartheid terror state that is, as I type this, engaging in the very same crimes that the Nazis did before them.
0 Yserbius 2012-10-05
What was his name? University? What form of Judaism was he a Rabbi for? You have a tendency to become remarkably forgetful and inconsistent when ask details about all of these stories that happen to 'friends' of yours.
2 [deleted] 2012-10-05
Nice try at discrediting me there. Unfortunately (for you) you are systematically failing and just looking like an idiot.
You and I both know that I didn't "forget" one thing. I will NEVER forget the terror state of Israel--nor will I forget many of the AWESOME people that I met and am friends with 'till this day. I'm even "hosting" the rabbi's son next summer in America it looks like.
Are you fucking high? I'm not giving out his name! The poor man has been through enough.
He is an orthodox Ashkenazi Jew. His family is also involved with Neturei Karta--which is all you need to know.
If you would have read the comment I TOLD you the university (University of Tel Aviv). What are you having trouble understanding? I posted basically his entire life's story and why he's an anti-Zionist two days ago; did you not read it? Look through my comment history if you want to know more about my "story" of how I know rabbi M and his good family.
I have no reason to "forget" anything; in fact, I said more than I should have. Don't believe me? Tough shit. I know its true and so does rabbi M--some random guy on Reddit means jack shit to me. I only come here to tell the truth and to learn the truth from others. The JIDF and ADL may not like it but they can go to hell. This information needs to be out there.
I certainly am sorry that I didn't "out" the rabbi's name but fuck you and your suggestions that I've been less than forthcoming.
1 Yserbius 2012-10-05
I believe you picked "Neturei Karta" because it's the only Orthodox organization of anti-Zionists that is widely known (mainly due to their extreme beliefs and loud noises). The fact remains that there are less than a few dozen Neturei Karta families world wide. In 1967, when you say that he lost he job, it was even less. There are very few ordained Rabbis in the organization and precious few members who have any sort of higher secular education as they shun it by principle. To say that a Neturei Karta member or even an Orthodox Jew was a professor in Tel Aviv U, a very secular college, is very hard to believe.
If he is an Orthodox Ashkenazi Jew, he would not have married an Arab who didn't convert. If she converted, then he would not have any sort of issues with his friends and family as that is widely accepted. I think you have that part of the story wrong somehow.
You see why I am skeptical of your comments. Also when having discussions with you in the past, you've stumbled and came up with some bizarre explanations for some of your comments. The one that particularly stands out was a comment of yours on the infamous video of a group of Israelis saying that they took out their video cameras to "document the event" regarding 9/11. You confirmed that the Hebrew translation was correct. When I questioned your Hebrew speaking ability, you mentioned that you don't but your mom "understands a little". When I questioned the fact that the video was dubbed into English and the Hebrew completely missing from the audio you replied with, and I quote, "She read their lips".
So, yeah. Combined with the fact that most of your comments bolster hateful sentiment (Holocaust denial, Protocols of the Elders of Zion, etc) makes me extremely skeptical when you start with these stories of people "you know".
1 [deleted] 2012-10-05
Well, if you remember correctly...
I had no idea what Neturei Karta was, and still do not really. I know that they are Jews against Zionism, and one of my hosts was aligned with them (though I didn't remember the name and WOULD never had until, actually, you brought it up to me). Neturei Karta had nothing to do with the meeting that I attended in Chicago, nor are they affiliated with "Jews Against Zionism"--though this is exactly what they do--Neturei Karta is mainly made up of HIGHLY Orthodox Jews who do NOT toe the Israeli's "party line" and make no bones about this fact. Most of them are located far away from me though--in New York and Israel. Rabbi M was affiliated with NK somehow but I have do idea if he was a "member" or just supported them and have not talked to him since he visited Virginia about 5 years back.
Actually, his wife DID convert--and he STILL had tons of trouble, and so did she. She is not considered a "real Jew" in Israel and is therefore WAAAY down in the pecking order--just above an Arab actually. She lost her job at the school where she worked (a Palestinian school) because it took her sometimes HOURS to make it through the FIVE checkpoints she had to cross to get into Jenin (where she was laughed at, spit on, and treated like cattle--luckily the IDF Major, when he was there, loved her and used to take his men to task when he saw this.
Please note that rabbi M didn't lose his REAL friends--he had business acquaintances he had worked with for years shun him. Merchants, service employees, that sort. But he DID lose friends. To be fair, so did his wife for converting. So much for "equality" in racist Marxist Israel, huh?
You should visit more often and see this blatant racism with your own eyes.
The video...we both know that you can hear some Hebrew--enough at points to make translations based on both sounds and lip movements--but my grandpop (long dead) was the Hebrew speaker, so I wouldn't know. My Mom can only catch words here and there. I sincerely DOUBT this translation is bad because, if so, where is the "good" one? You and I both know that, if a "correct" translation DID exist, the ADL would have rolled that bitch out years ago. The reason? The real video is the one that's up on YouTube for all of us to see. And we both know, even with assholes talking over a lot of it, that the translations were correct. The men didn't PULL OFF 9/11 after all---they were only sent here by their Mossad bosses (who DID pull off 9/11) to "document" the event. I mean, if fake that overdubbed vid could have said--"these men know that they were working for the people who brought down WTC--what do they have to say??"
They said almost nothing--nothing that implicated themselves or Mossad. Good little soldiers.
Anyhow, what would the explanation be from these "dancing Israelis"?? "Oh, were just Mossad agents, and were having some fun with our new cameras taking pix of both planes crashing that we had prior knowledge of AND photographing out lit Zippos in front of the demolished wreckage! Yeah, it's PRETTY WEIRD that we had a camera rolling when the first and second airplanes hit...and then the Bergen NJ police find us, our cameras, $5k in cash in an old sock, and explosives residue WHILE WE JUST HAPPEN to be dressed in Arab garb and telling the police that "Palestinians are your problem, not us!"
Do you not consider this "news??" Hell, it's the fucking smoking gun!
Yet, the MSM buried it as usual.
I am now more convinced than ever than you are smoking crack...at least a little right? You can tell me.
I played that video MONTHS ago to a deaf-mute who both speaks Hebrew AND ASL and he confirms that the english overdub is accurate (from what he can see)--with the exception of a few non-critical words. If YOU would like to do the same thing bring the video over to a shul for the disabled. We have nearly 10 within 50 miles from me and they'd be happy to help you.
Be skeptical all you'd like--I have nothing to hide. Trust me--the way things are going in the world right now I wish I was not Jewish! The backlash is coming and coming fast. Finkelstein, Kissinger, etc. are correct with that fact!
Sorry I'm not a "good Jew" so things more deeply involved in Judaism are not going to be things that I know about. In fact, I didn't even begin my fight against Zionism until after my grandpop died--so I am just getting started learning and speaking out. I'm also slowly learning Hebrew.
Thanks for your comment anyways! Sorry it didn't have its intended effect, but thanks.
4 space_walrus 2012-10-05
That article presents evidence of sexism and religious restrictions on women's rights in Israel, but it has nothing to say about racism.
This one does a good job of that:
http://www.timesofisrael.com/public-security-minister-anti-arab-rioters-will-be-prosecuted/
-3 redpen44 2012-10-05
Of course there's idiots who discriminate, but according to Israeli law, all citizens have equal rights. If you regularly read Israeli news, you will find that the government does a LOT to stop such illegal forms of discrimination.
I don't know what country you're from, but I'm sure there are examples of discrimination there that some people create on their own, without the law on their side.
So next time you want to tell someone to shut the fuck up, sit the fuck down and think about it first.
8 funnymanisi 2012-10-05
Systematic discrimination means there is no government response to said discrimination. So yes, SHUT THE FUCK UP SHILL.
-1 redpen44 2012-10-05
Or it means the government hasn't yet succeeded in or finished responding;) Even if there had been no government response (although there have been several responses) it doesn't change the fact that according to the law, all citizens have equal rights.
Seriously, are you a troll? Trolls usually make wittier comments, but maybe you're just a noob troll.
7 selfchosen2 2012-10-05
Except that the notion that the state must be controlled by Jews is baked into the country's DNA: it's a democracy founded on enshrining the dominance of one demographic. If you're a different race living in Israel, you're always going to know in the back of your mind that you're not part of the ruling tribe.
1 redpen44 2012-10-05
Actually, non-Jews get elected into office in Israel, and are generals in Israel's army, and work as government ministers too. Jews are the majority of the population, so of course they're the majority of the leaders, but they are not the only leaders. There is no law in Israel that says that to have a certain position someone has to be Jewish.
Just like in France of England or any other democracy, you don't have to be French of English to be in government, but the majority of the people are. Sure, if you're not English and living in England you will always know that you're not part of the ruling tribe, but as long as the law treats you equally, its okay.
7 sh3rog 2012-10-05
none of these countries have it in their founding documents that they are a "christian state"
-1 redpen44 2012-10-05
What does religion have to do with this? Jews are an ethnic group. Israel in a secular state. There are religious political parties in Israel, but they get very little votes. France is a French state, and England is an English state.
Many people think Jews are a religious and not an ethnic group, because as mentioned above, Judaism doesn't preach converting people, so the Jewish people's religion never spread much beyond the ethnic group that created it. When Israelis call Israel the Jewish state, they mean the Israelite state, not the state founded on Judaism.
7 sh3rog 2012-10-05
So they don't mean what they say the mean?
neat!
How could anyone be confused by this?
5 sh3rog 2012-10-05
Just to double check:
Jewish is the adjective forum of Judaism correct?
Meaning of or relating to Judaism?
And Israeli is the adjective form of Israel? (Israelite is the personal noun form of israel, so to say "israel is the israelite state" is redundant and nonsensical. Change the words out and see how much sense it makes. When Americans call America the christian nation, they mean the American nation, not the nation founded on Christianity)
-2 redpen44 2012-10-05
"Jewish" has two meanings, one being the adjective form of Judaism, and the other being the adjective form of Jews. Israelite is an older word for Jews, just like Hebrews. Jews have been around for a while, so there are more than one word to describe them. Israeli is the adjective form of Israel the country. Israelite is used only to refer to a person. Here's why:
There's a people called the Hebrews. According to Hebrew legend, all Hebrews are descendant from a guy named Israel. So, the Hebrews also call themselves Israelites. At one point, the Hebrews/Israelites create a country and name it "Israel" after their legendary common ancestor.
There was a province of Israel called Judea. At a later point in history, it becomes it's own country. Shortly after that, the rest of Israel got conquered. Some time after that, Judea reclaimed the lands of the rest of Israel that were previously conquered. The "new" Hebrew/Israelite state was officially still called Judea, but some loosely called it Israel. The Hebrews/Israelites who lived there started being called Judeans, and other Hebrews/Israelites around the world started being called Judeans regardless of whether they were from the province Judea.
So, the Judeans/Hebrew/Israelites, have a religion that only they follow. It's based on Judean/Hebrew/Israelite history, so people started calling the religion "Judaism". Kind of like lumping Greek culture, philosophy, mythology, and religion together and calling it "Greekism".
Jew is a short form of Judean, which was originally a derogatory term, but became accepted in the western countries as a normal term. Today, the word Jewish can be an adjective of anything relating to Jews, including but not limited to the Jewish religion Judaism.
So back to Judea/Israel... It was later conquered by Romans, and then Arabs, and then someone else, and then Turks, and then English, and then with cooperating with the English the Jews/Judeans/Hebrews/Israelites got it back again. They officially called it Israel. Anything from there is called "Israeli". It wouldn't make sense to call anything from there "Israelite" because Israelite is only used to refer to people.
Thing is, in the English world, the word commonly used to refer to Israelites is "Jews", so when speaking English, people call Israel the Jewish state. In Russia, for example, the proper way to refer to Israelites is Hebrews, so when speaking Russian, people call Israel the Hebrew state.
The fact that the name of the Jewish religion sounds similar to the English way of referring to the Jewish ethnic group, does create confusion. Hopefully I cleared that up for you.
5 sh3rog 2012-10-05
Wait, so why don't we just use the word israelite to refer to the ethnic group?
It couldn't be because there are a lot of muslims who would meet that criteria could it?
naw
no chance
Oh and by the way
According to the state of israel
Jewish has a very specific meaning
If you are jewish you get citizenship!
and guess what
according to their definition
Sammy davis jr. isn't jewish
Oh and all this semantics surrounding the "jewish state"
its all doublespeak
You just admitted that it's doublespeak
It allows people to be racist while at the same time claiming they are not
It is disgusting and your attempts to defend it are the same
Your philosophy is as morally bankrupt as your theology
At the end of the day
You cannot deny
The word jewish is inherently exclusive
So when you say "jewish democracy"
you are saying
"exclusive democracy"
which is an oxymoron
as democracy means inclusive
Oh and the fact that you use religious mythology which has been thoroughly disproven by archaeology and anthropology - it doesn't make me trust your intellect very much or your critical reasoning
then again the fact that you have to type this much to explain how "jewish state" isn't racist/exclusive
is how I know I'm right
5 sh3rog 2012-10-05
Oh and guess what
there is an adjective form of israel
israeli!
not israelite
so again your contention is nonsensical
but you're trying to make sense of nonsense so this much is not surprising
Read your whole statement again
and realize how utterly devoid of any insight it is
4 sh3rog 2012-10-05
TLDR:
Jews practice doublespeak
Jewish means one thing when speaking with the general public
It means quite another when speaking with other "jews"
Those with intellectual honesty who have jewish heritage but do not practice judaism do not call themselves jewish. They call themselves of jewish heritage.
These language games have got to stop
I know what you mean
I don't think you know what I mean
Because you are obscuring it from your awareness
intentionally
because you're jewish
so to admit some nefarious intent on the part of the jewish state
is to admit your own nefarious intent
which you may or may not have
but my aligning your identity with that of the modern "israeli secular jew"
you have chosen to be exclusive
and racist
4 sh3rog 2012-10-05
Also for legal matters, in the country of israel, Jewish/Non-Jewish status is determined by...
ding ding ding - A rabbinate
as in a rabbi
So again, your lies ring hollow
4 sh3rog 2012-10-05
Self referential definitions are invalid
To say that jewish is the adjective form of jews doesn't make sense without first defining jews
to which you will say " a jew is someone who is jewish"
and around in loops we go
1 redpen44 2012-10-05
Did you even read what I wrote? Or were you too busy writing poems? "Israelite" does refer to the ethnic group. It's just not used as commonly as its synonym "Jew".
I love how you argue that the fact that I wrote a lot is just cause to discredit me. Some things require a lot of writing to explain, and a lot of reading to understand;) Not everything is as simple to explain and understand as the latest trendy conspiracy theory.
1 sh3rog 2012-10-05
Haha notice how no other ethnicity takes 2 paragraphs of explanation for things like this
1 redpen44 2012-10-05
Few other ethnicities have been around as long as the Jews. Few other ethnicities follow a religion that doesn't preach conversion, and hence are approximately the only ethnic group following that religion. Few other ethnicities have to deal with people denying their identity and their right to live in their country. Few ethnicities have a homeland on land as stretegic for empires to control, as Israel. No other ethnicities fit all of the above conditions. I agree, Jews are a unique group, that call for unique explanations.
Jews have been around for roughly 4000 years. It's no surprise that they've been called by different names throughout the years, and no surprise that that could cause confusion. The overwhelming majority of today's ethnic groups are much younger than the Jews, so of course explaining Jewish history is more complicated than explaining the history of the average ethnic group.
So when faced with something more complicated than average, you can try extra hard to try to understand it, or you can say "There's no way something could be this complicated. It must be a lie". I recommend the former.
1 sh3rog 2012-10-05
Nah what I'm saying is the language is chosen in such a way that in one context it means a, in another it means b
rather than choosing word a and word b
you use Jewish
1 redpen44 2012-10-05
Not quite sure what you're saying, but I didn't invent the English language, and I agree the English language has its imperfections. "Jewish" is a strange word especially because it's an adjective form of a former slang term turned proper. If Jews were still called "Judeans" and Israel was still called "Judea", there'd be no confusion, right?
1 sh3rog 2012-10-05
lol
done here
you're brainwashed
well we all are
but you don't know it
1 redpen44 2012-10-05
I'm happy to hear you admit you're brainwashed. I hope some day you will no longer be brainwashed. Peace (or should I say Shalom?), fellow Earthling.
1 sh3rog 2012-10-05
Were you born with all these thoughts and ideas?
Or did someone wash them into you? (Wash as in dissolve parts of a whole)
1 redpen44 2012-10-05
After I became interested in the subject, I read about it from many different respectable sources, and they all converged on the details I've told you. It's a good thing I wasn't too lazy to do a lot of reading from a lot of different sources. I'm interested in reading about all history in general, and have read a lot about history of different corners of the world, and talked to people from those corners. Having a greater grasp of general history also helps see a clearer picture of specific conflicts, such as this one.
1 sh3rog 2012-10-05
You trying to convince me?
Or yourself?
1 redpen44 2012-10-05
You.
This conversation is getting boring. I grew out of name-calling a while ago. You have access to official sources, and can read it yourself. Unless you have genuine questions for me that don't accuse me of being brainwashed, there's no point in continuing this conversation.
1 sh3rog 2012-10-05
I don't have any questions you can answer
People who claim to personally know the will of god are in my opinion by definition insane. You are such a person. You think god told your ancestors some secret knowledge. I think that is insane
1 redpen44 2012-10-05
Actually, I don't think or claim what you accuse me of thinking and claiming. I'm not religious. I was just explaining what the Jewish religion says in the most literal interpretation, to explain that it's not racist.
I even wrote in my original reply, that if you take the religious writings literally, they're a load of crap. I guess you didn't read that part. You really shouldn't be too lazy to read long pieces of writing. It would have saved us a lot of time and misunderstandings.
1 sh3rog 2012-10-05
Your efforts to defend the indefensible are what make you a racist
It's like saying
"well I'm not saying blacks should be slaves. But according to biblical history, they are cursed by god"
1 cancerbotX 2012-10-05
" Israel in a secular state" - your a liar Israel would risk war with other nations in pursuit of their religious goals.
1 redpen44 2012-10-05
Israel doesn't fight wars for religious goals. Israel fights wars for survival, because countries around Israel want to destroy Israel for religious goals.
7 [deleted] 2012-10-05
[deleted]
0 redpen44 2012-10-05
Why? You don't believe the last sentence? It's true though. It's too bad if you don't take the rest of the post seriously, because its true too.
2 [deleted] 2012-10-05
This is meant to be a joke, right?
Because, my friend, NOTHING is further from the truth.
Try being an Israeli citizen as an Israeli Arab.
I have seen this with my own eyes! There is BLATANT racism in every single aspect of day-to-day Israeli life--from the jobs you can get to the roads you can drive on.
Basically, Ashkenazi Jews receive the benefits of full citizens. Diaspora Jews from America come second. Next are the Sephardic Jews, followed by the "lesser" Jews (as they call them)--African Jews and the like. These are followed by Arab Jews.
Finally, at the very bottom, are the Moslems and the Christians.
That's what cracks me up about Christian Zionists. If they spent ONE HOUR in Israel they would realize that Israelis are NO friends to Christians! I watched a totally white-bread American Christian family get mercilessly teased, yelled at, and spit on by nearly 15 people JUST BECAUSE they were Christians. It was utterly disgusting--and this was NOT a unique situation. There are hundreds of vids on YouTube showing the same thing--the JIDF has removed most of them, but there are still some left.
Israel is, far and away, the most racist rogue terror state since 1939 Germany. Period.
1 redpen44 2012-10-05
I don't know what parts of Israel you or the people making those youtube videos go to, but I know Israeli Arabs and Israeli Christians, and they get equal rights, and enjoy visiting their Israel, and wouldn't trade Israel for any other country in the region. The Christians especially, because Christian Arabs get oppressed by Muslim Arabs. Sure there are racist people in Israel like in every country, and there are neighborhoods where Arabs shouldn't go, and there are neighborhoods where Jews shouldn't go, but overall and legally, everyone has equal rights. I suggest not forming your opinions of a place from youtube.
1 [deleted] 2012-10-05
I'd have to agree--if I were in the region Israel is by far the nicest country as far as modernity goes!
I had some bad experiences there but I absolutely LOVED most of the people.
Plus, the partying...god damn!! The partying! ;)
1 redpen44 2012-10-05
Yes! God damn!! The partying! I'm glad you enjoyed the country.
See, the country's not perfect, but it's doing a pretty good job considering the surroundings it has to deal with. People from other countries in the region want Israel destroyed and replaced with a country that's backwards in modernity. Israel is not the country that can be compared to Nazi Germany. It's Israel's neighbors that act like Nazi Germany, and are proud of it. That's why Israel has to fight for survival. Israelis hate fighting, but they hate dying even more.
1 [deleted] 2012-10-05
Well, we both agree that the IsraelI people are not the problem.
The people I met in Israel were the best ever; Jews and Arabs both. They were also, by FAR, more aware and awake re: world issues than any group of folks that I've ever met. My host family in Israel were both antizionists and fighters for the rights of the Palestinian people.
Plus, as I said, NOBODY knows how to party like the Israelis! Strange when you remember that in Israel even energy drinks are illegal...yet ecstasy is consumed like Tylenol! :-)
Indeed, I never had as much fun as I did in Tel Aviv. Great people, great music, great fun all around.
I just pray the Zionists don't force Israel into a war that is unwanted by the people...VERY many Israelis that I met did not like their government all that much. I was there before Rabin was killed and peace was this close! It totally sucked when I found out that, inevitably, he was murdered. Very sad; if allowed to live Israel would have been a far better place IMHO.
Cheers friend!
2 redpen44 2012-10-05
I'm glad we agree on many things.
I don't think saving Rabin would have created peace to be honest. It also wasn't the only time that Israel was close to making a peace deal. If peace were to ever come to Israel, it would leave Palestinian terrorist organizations with no more source of cash. The terrorists know this, and that's why whenever Israel comes close to a peace deal, terrorists attack Israel, provoking a response, and the peace deal falls through. This pattern continues to this day.
If Rabin had been saved, I see no reason why the same pattern wouldn't still continue. Look what happened with Gaza. The whole territory was returned, and as a result the situation got less peaceful. Today many Gazans (especially women) are quietly talking about how much better it was under Israeli rule.
Also, what do you mean by the word "Zionist"? The word is used to mean different things, and I just want to be sure I understand you correctly.
2 miffelplix 2012-10-05
The powerful thing about religion is that one person can read a holy text and become a champion for human rights, and another can read the same text and become a genocidal mass-murderer.
1 ingy2012 2012-10-05
I don't see your point. As a person with a Jewish ancestry I acknowledge the Jewish government is but so are most governments regardless of religion. Am I automatically racist since my mother's family is Jewish?
1 REWARDIT 2012-10-05
And? The opposite of 'racist' is bigoted.
1 Thevents 2012-10-05
The Jewish religion is interesting. Did you know that they used to practice ritual animal sacrifice called "Burnt Offering"? The word for this practice was "Holocaust." That's where the word Holocaust comes from - Judaic Ritual sacrifice in which the animal is completely burned up. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_(sacrifice) Now, can someone explain to me why the Jewish people would choose to refer to the German genocide in which the Jews were burned in ovens, using their own word from their religion for ritual sacrifice?
3 REWARDIT 2012-10-05
They don't. They use the word 'Shoah' (Hebrew for calamity).
This might interest you in relation to 'holocaust' usage by Christians though.
1 Thevents 2012-10-05
Then you should fix the wiki page.
1 REWARDIT 2012-10-05
Oh don't get me wrong. There is a ritualistic elements in the 'holocaust'. That is what I am helping you out with with the link I gave you. You just shouldn't label it as 'Jewish'. I think that the whole 'Jesus as God out, Jews as Gods in' thing is a purely Pseudo-Christian thing. The embarrassment of damning people on theological grounds being replaced with the arrogance of damning them on materialistic / scientific grounds being their (the pseudo-Christians) relief alone. You are not going to burn in hell you are going to burn on a material Darwinian earth etc. Everybody else is a lot more confused.
1 Captain_Num-nutz 2012-10-05
You need to think of Judaism as a culture and not a religion, because that is what it is.
1 bakedphilosopher 2012-10-05
Real Jews know that is forbidden to have a state or a kingdom. Real Jews believe in Tikkun Olam and don't pray for bombs to drop. Real Jews are NOT Zionists.
0 VanillaPudding 2012-10-05
Hmm... Since Jewish people can be of many different races I do not think their religious stance of being better then non-jews could really be classified as racism.
edit: are you confusing racism with discrimination?
0 Sailer 2012-10-05
Well, in fact, you are right.
0 SpasticusAutisticus 2012-10-05
They are. Of course they are.
-1 BobNoel 2012-10-05
You need to start by understanding that a person can change their race by choosing a particular religion.
4 antinuclearenergy 2012-10-05
I'm fully versed in evolutionary biology, religion creates separation between people, which creates race. But Judaism functionally creates much more separation, and they are very focused on making sure you have the right racial origins.
6 BobNoel 2012-10-05
I personally believe there is only one race, the human race. But that's just me.
2 rrp0423 2012-10-05
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence#The_genetic_hypothesis
1 Astald_Ohtar 2012-10-05
Technically yes , there is only a human race that have a lot of ethnicities .
2 daminkz 2012-10-05
Race is an entirely human-made concept that has nothing to back it up. You are more genetically similar to people who look different than people who look 'the same.'
1 WarHymn 2012-10-05
The same is true of dog breeds. A poodle has more in common genetically speaking with a jack Russell than it does with other poodles. So tell me again how this fact doesn't apply to humans and heritable traits like intelligence?
4 sh3rog 2012-10-05
source?
Don't think this one is true
1 [deleted] 2012-10-05
Its true but not a popular topic and many attempts have been made to de bunk the idea. Neither of these articles are going to give you an easy read but at the heart of them lies what I typed above.
http://evoandproud.blogspot.com/2008/06/more-genetic-variation-within-than.html http://www.globalanimal.org/2011/09/25/only-seven-different-genes-for-all-those-dogs/11584/
I am not saying one breed of dog or race of person is superior but we are different. Then add in the other fact that all non Africans are 2-4% neanderthal and then you really have to say we are not the same.
http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2011-12/20/neanderthal-test
1 WarHymn 2012-10-05
more on Humans and Neanderthals interbreeding. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/05/100506-science-neanderthals-humans-mated-interbred-dna-gene/
1 sh3rog 2012-10-05
"… there is less mtDNA difference between dogs, wolves, and coyotes than there is between the various ethnic groups of human beings, which are recognized as a single species. (Coppinger & Schneider, 1995)"
lolwut?
mtdna = mitcochondrial dna = doesn't really determine phenotypic traits for the most part (aside from metabolic disorders)
so this statement is pretty irrelevant
0 BobNoel 2012-10-05
It's a word that means nothing so it can mean anything, similar to the word 'terrorist'.
-4 Raikko 2012-10-05
I think you have Jewish religion mixed up with the majority of all religions. The vast majority of religions in general create a culture of "us" vs. "them". The situation in the middle east is filled with hatred on both sides. Think about it using the common analogy of Iran being surrounded by US military based. It's the same situation for Israel, they are surrounded by countries who do not want them there. The only thing maintaining that balance is Israel's vast military/US(NATO) support. Saying this doesn't excuse Israels behavior towards Palestine, I just feel more context should be added to this discussion.
9 Sangui 2012-10-05
That's because Israel shouldn't exist. There was a lot of Jews living in Jerusalem before the creation of the state of Israel. The west just decided that the Jews needed a homeland, and that's why there's all this fucking problems.
3 SonOfMan11 2012-10-05
Not true. Have you even read the New Testament? Jesus taught his disciples to love their enemies and to be meek and humble. Jesus taught that the first shall be last and the last shall be first while the Jews of the Old Testament teach that the Jews shall always be first because God wills it. Jesus blessed the Gentile woman who pleaded for his help. Jesus never once said it's us versus them. I agree that this is how most christians think but that is only because they haven't read their New Testaments, or because they have listened to their corrupted religious institutions which have fed them lies about how the Old Testament and New Testament are one book written by God that therefore must be interpreted as one message (which is impossible). The Old Testament (judaism) an New Testament (christianity) couldn't be ANY MORE DIFFERENT. The messages contained in each of these texts are absolutely irreconcilable.
7 Simsimius 2012-10-05
If anyone actually took on board the teachings of the first four books of the New Testament, the world would be a great place (I say that as a lifelong atheist). Sadly, no one does.
I mean holy fuck, look at the all the rich Christians - one of the biggest and most obvious pieces of hypocrisy you can see.
4 SonOfMan11 2012-10-05
I agree with this more than words can express. I can't even join a Church or faith-based community because it makes me crazy to see how unChrist-like these self-described christians can be.
1 sh3rog 2012-10-05
makes you wonder
what good is a religion no one seems to be able to follow?
I can tell you what bad it is - it allows people to think they are righteous while doing horrible things to their fellow man. In the name of "god"
I trust people a lot more when they don't claim to personally know what god wants
It is a trait shared with the insane
0 sh3rog 2012-10-05
"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
But yeah you know your bible real good
totally says to accuse others of being unchristian for their failures
4 sh3rog 2012-10-05
have you been to america?
have you met the christians?
what good is a book that no one seems to understand properly?
“Better than a thousand hollow words, is one word that brings peace.”
2 SonOfMan11 2012-10-05
I hear what you are saying, but I am not going to cast down the book or the message because the people reading it are idiots. I mean, it's pretty fucking clear what message Jesus intended to convey in the story of the New Testament.
-2 sh3rog 2012-10-05
If it's so clear, how do you explain all these racist evangelicals?
white christian slave owners thruout history?
the inquisition?
the catholic pedophillia scandal?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre - perpetrated by christians
And again, if the people are idiots, shouldn't the book be simpler?
I mean god made the people right?
why make people and then write a guide for them that they can't understand?
doesn't make sense to me (like most of the bible)
"Isn't it strange how the game change the face of the innocent? Plus the face of the guilty too - dude I'm in the court shouting out not guilty dude! What's real to me might not be real to you! But you should feel me dude."
3 SonOfMan11 2012-10-05
I can't explain these things. They are wrong. Jesus did not condone such behavior in the story of the New Testament.
-6 sh3rog 2012-10-05
Now whose the idiot?
3 SonOfMan11 2012-10-05
Really?
-3 sh3rog 2012-10-05
as a side note:
I'm dumb
I'm smart
I'm an idiot
Plus some other shit
And I don't even know what I am
Caveman pornstar riding on a unicorn
Undercover cop and I'm wearing a uniform
Plus I wrote all of my rhymes in cuneiform
Hella years ago bc you better be informed
don't get it?
you're at a computer google it
-4 sh3rog 2012-10-05
Well if you can't explain this to me, its because you are
a) an idiot
b) willfully ignorant
(I consider b a subset of a)
I can explain it to you, if you'd like (you wouldn't)
2 SonOfMan11 2012-10-05
The behavior of the people who participated in those events cannot be reconciled with the message of the Christ. Period. I cannot explain to you how they believed they were following in his message while enslaving or killing or doing violence to other people because this is absolutely not permitted under the law of the New Testament. This is not Christlike behavior.
0 sh3rog 2012-10-05
I think you mean
"This is not permitted under my understanding of the law of the new testament"
Any text which does not confer instant understanding is not perfect or infallible.
Obviously people can read the same book and come away with a different message. Are you going to try to say these people didn't read the bible?
"By the end of the Medieval period, enslavement of Christians had been largely abolished throughout Europe, although enslavement of non-Christians remained an open question."
"Since the Middle Ages, the Christian understanding of slavery has seen significant internal conflict and endured dramatic change. Nearly all Christian leaders before the late 17th century regarded slavery as consistent with Christian theology"
It took reading that book for 1600 years to figure out that slavery is wrong?
What a great book it must be!!!!
like OMG
like for reals
oh my god
so good
good god
god damn
soul vibrations
why hate it?
when you really could be lovin it
you know we holdin that heat like an oven mitt
The fact that people can be this devout (you cannot argue that some of the worst sinners have been some of the most devout christians - the inquisitors, these phalange militias, slave owning confederates who were extremely religious; as a side note, jesus tells a slave to obey his master, as his master should obey god. kinda fucked up if you ask me - he even recommends a slave return himself to his owner. but yeah no way to misconstrue that message!)
edit for sauce
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_slavery#Patristic_era
1 cesarjulius 2012-10-05
I think he was saying that you look stupid asking "now whose the idiot?" instead of "now who's the idiot?"
You kind of have to get your words right when trying to insult someone else's intelligence...
1 sh3rog 2012-10-05
eh only if you're a native english speaker and you care about semantics
its about the message not the medium
did you get the message?
why are you so hung up on the medium
I'm fine with looking stupid
I'd take it over being stupid any day of the week
unfortunately it seems like this trend is not common amongst image conscious americans
1 sh3rog 2012-10-05
Then again
the message is the medium
drops tops you see me in
plebian but still use a word like plebian
sat season again so collegiate
stupid with greasy friends
scoopin up easy 10's
easy e got mercked by counterintelligence weasels
them schools don' teach us shit
what we need is freedom
tryn to get all that I can get
you like that?
tryin to get all that I can get...
dumb shiny
come find me
none I see run quite like me
dumb questions
run one by me
son I stun like stun guns
try me
2 cesarjulius 2012-10-05
ONLY IN AMERICA COULD YOU FIND A WAY
TO EARN A HEALTHY BUCK AND STILL KEEP YOUR ATTITUDE ON SELF-DESTRUCT.
-9 Yserbius 2012-10-05
First explain why they you feel that they are, and I'll attempt to answer you. You do understand that you are discussing two entirely different things, right? The State of Israel has nothing to do with the Jewish religion and vice versa.
EDIT: Can someone at least answer my question?
7 SonOfMan11 2012-10-05
You're right... it's not like IT'S THE JEWISH STATE OR ANYTHING. sorry about the caps. I just scream when people say stupid things.
-4 Yserbius 2012-10-05
It's not like BEING JEWISH DOES NOT MEAN BEING RELIGIOUS OR ANYTHING. sorry about the caps. I just scream when people say stupid things.
4 SonOfMan11 2012-10-05
The state is based on a religious tribe. Not a race. There are multiple races of Jews living in Israel.
-3 Yserbius 2012-10-05
Yes, but the whole original concept of Zionism rejected the notion that Judaism is a religion and sought to create a secular state. Here's a bit of light googling, check out these things and get back to me on how you feel.
EDIT: Not to mention many famous Atheists, such as Christopher Hitchens and Albert Einstein, identified themselves as being Jewish.
6 sh3rog 2012-10-05
nothing at all?
you believe that?
really?
-3 Yserbius 2012-10-05
Ok, not "nothing at all" but much less than people think. Did you know that all the founders of Zionism and almost every Prime Minister of Israel were Atheists?
Zionism is a secular belief based on the Jewish ethnicity.
3 sh3rog 2012-10-05
ok but judaism the relgious belief originated in israel correct?
seems like a pretty strong connection to me
-1 Yserbius 2012-10-05
There's a connection. But at the end of the day, you're talking about two different entities and concepts. One: The State of Israel, a (mostly) secular political entity that controls most of the land and people between the Mediterranian and Jordan. And two: the Jewish religion. A religion followed by many people around the world and some 20-40% of Israelis.
2 sh3rog 2012-10-05
how is it mostly secular?
is the government paying for muslim religious schools?
I dont think so
-1 Yserbius 2012-10-05
Actually, it is.
It is mostly secular because with the exception of marriage laws and government closures on Saturday, there are few to no laws with a religious basis.
2 sh3rog 2012-10-05
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_and_democratic_state
""A Jewish and Democratic State" is the definition of the nature and character of the State of Israel, as the Jewish nature was first defined within the Declaration of Independence of 1948, and the "Democratic" character was first officially added to the "Jewish" nature in the amendment to the Basic Law: the Knesset that was passed in 1985 (amendment 9, clause 7A)."
got any more lies for me?
you really aren't helping the reputation (which I personally don't believe) that jews are intentionally mislead gentiles for their own benefit
-3 Yserbius 2012-10-05
You do realize that defining something or someone as Jewish does not necessitate that it's religious?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_Judaism
FYI, my point still stands. There are few religious laws in Israel, nothing you said refutes that fact.
3 sh3rog 2012-10-05
Ethnic judaism is a myth which has been disproven by genetic studies
try again please
This is a stupid as calling me a secular christian because my parents are christian
and you do realize that it does necessitate exclusivity
or is it "separate but equal"
-2 Yserbius 2012-10-05
I'm not sure where you got your facts from and what you mean by "disproven by genetic studies". The only genetic studies I know of show that all Jews from almost all areas of the world show genetic similarities.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_genetics_of_Jews
Christians never referred to themselves as a nationality and never had a movement to redefine Christian to mean an ethnic group. Jews have had both.
Just explain to me one thing: Albert Einstein defined himself as being Jewish and was an outspoken Atheist. Explain.
2 sh3rog 2012-10-05
He was a physicist not a geneticist, anthropologist or a sociologist?
Social conventions are just that - conventions made up by society not naturally existing
Jewish is a social convention not a race
Unless you can point me to an "are you jewish blood test"
-2 Yserbius 2012-10-05
Who cares what he was? The fact is that he, like many many others, defined Judaism as something separate from religion. Why are you consistently denying that this is so?
Ok, so Jewish is a social convention. To a lot of people it's a secular social convention. Including the definition used in the founding of the State of Israel. I can bring you references if you want (you so far have brought none). Start with Herzls work, The Jewish State. Read carefully the chapter where he state very explicitly that "The State must not be a Theocracy". Then get back to me.
1 sh3rog 2012-10-05
Haha sorry not gonna read your propaganda
Tell me this
What about people who are religiously but not ethnically Jewish?
Is it their state too?
or no?
-2 Yserbius 2012-10-05
I will answer every question you have provided you refute my claims that Israel is a secular Jewish state.
I'm am providing you with propaganda. But it's propaganda aimed at secular Jews, and is obvious as such. I am also providing you with objective sources, such as Wikipedia. If you will refuse to even look at it, then I guess you will just choose to be as brainwashed and closed minded as all the "sheeple" this subreddit is meant to ridicule.
People who are religiously Jewish are also ethnically Jewish. There are many religious Jews (Haredim, which make up about 10% of Israeli society) who do not consider Israel to be "their" State. It's just where they live.
2 sh3rog 2012-10-05
What?!
I didn't know you could change your ethnicity by changing your religion
If I become a muslim it makes me arab?
really? you believe this?
then why would becoming a religious jew make me an ethnic jew?
Sounds like you're trying to have your cake and eat it too
-1 Yserbius 2012-10-05
First answer this: Is Woody Allen Jewish? Is he an Atheist? What about Einstein? Herzl? Hitchens?
The answer for all of them, as everyone knows, is yes. Now, if Judaism is , as you claim, just a religion, how do you explain that? You have yet to answer that one simple question that is the underlying root of our argument. No more questions, answer me first. And answer my previous arguments to your opinion that Israel is a Theocratic State.
1 sh3rog 2012-10-05
Is sammy davis junior jewish?
And I never said israel is a theocracy
or that judaism is just a religion
What I am saying is that if judaism is an ethnicity as you claim it is
a policy of having a "jewish character" to the state
is blatantly racist
Just like the united states having an "anglo-saxon" character would be racist
"Jewish demoracy"
this is an oxymoron - what ensures the jewishness of said democracy?
1 sh3rog 2012-10-05
Give me a set of questions I can ask someone to determine if they are jewish by your definition of judaism
Because as it stands your definition seems to be shifting based on context
So again - give me some simple yes or no questions I could ask someone to determine their jewishness
Oh and "Do you consider yourself jewish?" doesn't count, because it wont get me into israel under the right of return
1 sh3rog 2012-10-05
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew#Law_of_Return
"In the registering of "nationality" on Israeli Teudat Zehut ("identity card"), which is administered by the Ministry of the Interior, a person had to meet the halakhic definition to be registered as a "Jew"."
halakhic definition = your mother was a practicing religious jew or descended maternally from one
"As a result, mere belief in the principles of Judaism does not make one a Jew. Similarly, non-adherence by a Jew to the 613 Mitzvot, or even formal conversion to another faith, does not make one lose one's Jewish status. Thus the immediate descendants of all female Jews (even apostates) are still considered to be Jews, as are those of all their female descendants. Even those descendants who are not aware they are Jews, or practice a faith other than Judaism, are defined by this perspective as Jews, as long as they come from an unbroken female line of descent. As a corollary, the children of a Jewish father and a non-Jewish mother are not considered to be Jews by halakha unless they formally convert according to halakha, even if raised fully observant in the mitzvot"
so basically yeah its not a religion, it's institutionalized racism
way better!
It is also a great way to guarantee inbreeding - No jewish man is going to marry outside his tribe if it means cursing his descendants
Keep everything "in the family" as it were
Also explains all the genetic diseases ashkenazi jews get
Just like purebreed dogs have all kinds of genetic issues from years of inbreeding
Ashkenazi's have them from millenia of it
And this isn't a racist statement, it is a statement of fact. Just like irish people have red hair and pale skin (everyone living on an island? there's gonna be some in breeding) or british royalty have hemophilia, or icelandic people have pale skin and white hair
2 sh3rog 2012-10-05
n. After the establishment of the state of Israel, the Israel Lands Authority oversaw the administration of these properties. On 8 March 2000, the Israeli Supreme Court ruled that Israeli Arabs, too, had an equal right to purchase long-term leases of such land, even inside previously solely Jewish communities and villages.
Took 50 years to acknowledge that arabs have the same property rights as jews
but yeah nothing discriminatory here
1 sh3rog 2012-10-05
In 2007, the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination reported that Palestinians and Israeli settlers in the occupied territories are subject to different criminal laws, leading to longer detention and harsher punishments for Palestinians than for Israelis for the same offenses
1 sh3rog 2012-10-05
Just read the wikipedia link you posted and it back up what I'm saying -
there is ashkenazi jews, sephardi jews and mizrahi jews who have vastly differing genetics
1 sh3rog 2012-10-05
also to base a state on ethnicity and not beliefs to me is even worse
at least people can choose what to believe
you are stuck with your ethnicity
sounds like a guaranteed recipe for racism to me
1 sh3rog 2012-10-05
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Israel#Proposed_oath_of_allegiance
1 sh3rog 2012-10-05
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_the_apartheid_analogy
3 Limbo_Arab 2012-10-05
Thank you hasbara, now go back to /r/Israel.
-13 [deleted] 2012-10-05
[deleted]
3 SonOfMan11 2012-10-05
nice try
3 bumblingmumbling 2012-10-05
Congratulations on your first post to reddit!
Black Propaganda much? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_propaganda
3 SonOfMan11 2012-10-05
Not true. Have you even read the New Testament? Jesus taught his disciples to love their enemies and to be meek and humble. Jesus taught that the first shall be last and the last shall be first while the Jews of the Old Testament teach that the Jews shall always be first because God wills it. Jesus blessed the Gentile woman who pleaded for his help. Jesus never once said it's us versus them. I agree that this is how most christians think but that is only because they haven't read their New Testaments, or because they have listened to their corrupted religious institutions which have fed them lies about how the Old Testament and New Testament are one book written by God that therefore must be interpreted as one message (which is impossible). The Old Testament (judaism) an New Testament (christianity) couldn't be ANY MORE DIFFERENT. The messages contained in each of these texts are absolutely irreconcilable.
6 sh3rog 2012-10-05
nothing at all?
you believe that?
really?
9 Sangui 2012-10-05
That's because Israel shouldn't exist. There was a lot of Jews living in Jerusalem before the creation of the state of Israel. The west just decided that the Jews needed a homeland, and that's why there's all this fucking problems.
7 SonOfMan11 2012-10-05
You're right... it's not like IT'S THE JEWISH STATE OR ANYTHING. sorry about the caps. I just scream when people say stupid things.
3 Limbo_Arab 2012-10-05
Thank you hasbara, now go back to /r/Israel.
11 funnymanisi 2012-10-05
Shut the fuck up.
7 selfchosen2 2012-10-05
Except that the notion that the state must be controlled by Jews is baked into the country's DNA: it's a democracy founded on enshrining the dominance of one demographic. If you're a different race living in Israel, you're always going to know in the back of your mind that you're not part of the ruling tribe.
3 cancerbotX 2012-10-05
oligarchy and religion its all the fucking same to me
2 [deleted] 2012-10-05
This is meant to be a joke, right?
Because, my friend, NOTHING is further from the truth.
Try being an Israeli citizen as an Israeli Arab.
I have seen this with my own eyes! There is BLATANT racism in every single aspect of day-to-day Israeli life--from the jobs you can get to the roads you can drive on.
Basically, Ashkenazi Jews receive the benefits of full citizens. Diaspora Jews from America come second. Next are the Sephardic Jews, followed by the "lesser" Jews (as they call them)--African Jews and the like. These are followed by Arab Jews.
Finally, at the very bottom, are the Moslems and the Christians.
That's what cracks me up about Christian Zionists. If they spent ONE HOUR in Israel they would realize that Israelis are NO friends to Christians! I watched a totally white-bread American Christian family get mercilessly teased, yelled at, and spit on by nearly 15 people JUST BECAUSE they were Christians. It was utterly disgusting--and this was NOT a unique situation. There are hundreds of vids on YouTube showing the same thing--the JIDF has removed most of them, but there are still some left.
Israel is, far and away, the most racist rogue terror state since 1939 Germany. Period.