I always reply with: "Then why don't you live in a glass house?" in a very serious manner and expect a response.

You should try it.

Or the ever popular "why don't you leave your door unlocked?" are you worried perhaps someone might take something of value from you?

I live in Canada, my door is always unlocked.

My Canadian family says you're foolish.

Heh, I leave my doors unlocked on my east coast home, my car doors unlocked, have for 20 years, never had a reported burglary in my town's history.

And what town would that be? I've just gotta stop and get some fuel in my burglary van and I can head your way.

It's what happens when you live in farm country and know that if you trespass you'll just be shot ;)

reported

Because it would break easily.

Also people would think I was vain or some kind of exhibitionist and we can't be having that :3

These same folks don't understand why we had a right to privacy in the first place.

They understand perfectly. They want to control privacy to obtain political power.

I just meant from the sheeple point of view. The ones that condone that kind of bullshit without even thinking about it what they're actually condoning.

Got it, agreed.

That's part of the problem. There was no codified right to privacy in the law.

[deleted]

no. It's because when you are born on this planet you have intrinsic human rights. One of these rights is no government can tell you what to do period. That's because no person can tell you what to do. As long as you are not harming others no one can make you do anything.

I'm glad you made you made this particular comment! We are each sovereign men and women, beholden to nothing but "natural-law" and non-aggression. I need not the permission of some gang of crooks and thieves to have privacy; my very consciousness validates my right to unadulterated, pure volition. Cheers!

amen

So then its my sovereign right to beat you to death and take all your possessions. Is this correct?

When you are born, you are born in a country. That makes you a citizen of that country whether you like it or not. This means that you are required to follow all the rules that your country establishes. If you dont like it, then perhaps your country gives you the opportunity to change rules/laws you dont like through a popular vote. If you still dont like it, you are free to start your own country, provided the land you claim for yourself is not already owned by some other country, then you will have to take it by force. Good luck with that.

You can take all that self-righteous freemen bullshit and shove it up your ass.

Why would you ever want to harm or take from another? Would it Improve how you feel about yourself, or how others feel about you?

I submit to no authority other than my own. I will live by my country's laws as long as they allow me to be at peace with every man. I will contribute to my community even though no law states I have to. I will pay my taxes because our cities and hospitals need to be maintained, but not because the law requires me to.

The only power that can be held over me is physical force. I will always choose to disobey the rules set before me if I feel convicted that they are in error. No one has power or my mind.

That is the crux of every argument about living in a world without laws though. People are fucked. Look at people in power, look at psychotic killers, look at just people in general. These things are in place in case for those people whose goal is nothing other than inflicting pain on other people.

So if there is some "natural" tendency for people to use force against one another, what does giving the ultimate monopoly on force to an institution of the most corrupt individuals in society accomplish? Could you imagine a better way to arbitrate conflict or ensure justice without enthroning a managerial class?

Exactly. A one world government with no corruption can lead to a utopia.

A one world government with abuse, corruption, and constant thriving for power can lead to a global collapse like has never been seen before.

Why such an aggressive tone?

So then its my sovereign right to beat you to death and take all your possessions. Is this correct?

Actually, no, you are not correct. The initiation of force is never a function of personal sovereignty. I understand that you may be perfectly fine with coercing others to give you what you want, but know that once you commit such an act of aggression, you very well may receive a heavy wrath of arbitration from your victim or an agent of your victim. You don't have the "freedom" to hinder another human being's volition. Some unprincipled person such as yourself would suit better in a heavily governed society where the institution with the monopoly of violence can oppress others for you... You wouldn't want to have to take an oath of non-aggression because you may be too used to sucking at the tit of the plunderer.

Sovereignty is about Self-Ownership and Self-Determination. If we are born of a country that makes us property of the state, what is being a citizen, really? As an infant, did I willingly choose to be collateral for the debt of a government? What divine right does government have to sidestep morality, or are we to assume that murder and theft are moral because the State does it?

What is a citizen anyway, a human resource to be exploited? Are we not, therefore, human-livestock to be farmed for good-production; chattel for all of our future generations to compensate for the debt of this institutionalized gang? Should I assume that you support slavery?

What I am saying is that if you are a sovereign citizen, there is nothing to stop me from taking your car because I like it. Or robbing you because I need the money. Or burning your house down because I like fire. Or killing you because I wanted to know what it was like. And if you call the cops, or the fire dept, or an ambulance, then you are utilizing a service established to assist the citizens of that particular country. As a citizen of the United States, I am required by my own moral code to follow the laws that have been established to protect all of its citizens. If you are a "sovereign citizen" (of which, the legal implications, by the way have never held up in court) then you are saying that you are outside of those laws. (quite literally an "outlaw") and as such, there is nothing you can do to stop me or anyone else from doing whatever they want to you.

Like it or not, if you are born in the US, that makes you a US citizen.

Translation: if you don't like it, you can just giiiit auuught!

So then its my sovereign right to beat you to death and take all your possessions. Is this correct?

This is correct. You should know that I also have the right to do that, I also have the right to beat the shit out of you for trying to do that. Everybody else also has that right. Sure there will be people going around beating people up and taking their possessions, just like there are now. At the same time there will be people who will be pissed that people are doing that and use their rights to stop them.

At the same time there will be people who will be pissed that people are doing that and use their rights to stop them.

Rights? If you are a sovereign citizen, you have relinquished any rights. If you mean the right to defend yourself, that's fine. But what all this sovereign citizen bullshit does is create a society of the weak vs the strong. There will always be people that take from the weak and there will always be weak to be taken advantage of. If you organize a society where you establish rules to prevent the strong from destroying the weak, you have created your own laws.

I'm talking about natural rights, your talking about legal rights. I don't mean the right to defend my self, I have one right and that is have infinite rights.

Oh really? What if I take you and a few of your friends, throw you on a ship, sail you across the ocean and make you plow my farmland or be beaten to death? You still going to be proclaiming that no one can make you do anything when I've tied you to a tree and am whipping you with my braided whip? If you die, I'll just get another one to replace you. You will either comply with what I am ordering you to do or die. I wont lose any sleep over it.

lol. Sure you can make someone do something, but it violates natural law.

OK, define "Natural Law"

if your not hurting someone, no one can force you to do anything.

That's adorable.

Whats not adorable is what I get to do to you if you break that rule.

No, what is adorable is you thinking that I couldnt force you to do something. I could easily put together a situation where you would be forced to do exactly what I wanted you to do without having to cause you any harm. That's all Im saying. Keep your empty threats to yourself.

Natural law is really kill or be killed. Anything else is just delusional.

Being physically forced to do something does not mean I am owned until I allow ownership of me. A slave that has allowed ownership will never try to escape. I can only be made to act if I fear death. In the absence of fear, no one can control what I do.

In the absence of fear, no one can control what I do.

That kicked ass. Well said. What do we have to fear in the absence of this institution of murderers, thieves, and plunderers? Volition can be a terrifying thing for some people...

You have no idea how easy it is to control someone. Fear or not.

See... The thing is, you are but one man. With today's communication being what it is, soon there will be no where to hide. Every action you make will be recorded, annualized, categorized and logged for later viewing. Any county actions you partake in will instantly be available for everyone to see (kony 2012 anyone) and retaliation/correction will come almost as instantly. You might get a few people enslaved but ultimately you will be drawn and quartered by hillbillies on atvs while some Tracy Lawrence song gets blared over the screaming motors.

TL;DR::god bless 'merica

Checks & Balances were written into the U.S. Constitution because the Framers were "paranoid tinfoil hatters" who understood that Power Corrupts.

Violations of privacy -- especially warrantless wiretaps -- are not aimed at Joe Public. They are aimed at eavesdropping on Congress & judges & public servants -- to control them through blackmail.

Read a biography of J. Edgar Hoover and you'll see why "Innocent people have nothing to hide" is a tool of totalitarian control.

The same policemen who will arrest you for trying to film him will tell you "if you have nothing to hide, why object to a search?"

I have a right NOT to be searched. You do not have a right not to be filmed in public.

Here's a good read on The Value of Privacy by Bruce Schneier addressing when people say 'If you aren't doing anything wrong, what do you have to hide?'

good link.."the premise that privacy is about hiding a wrong. It's not. Privacy is an inherent human right.....For if we are observed in all matters, we are constantly under threat of correction, judgment, criticism, even plagiarism of our own uniqueness. We become children, fettered under watchful eyes, constantly fearful that -- either now or in the uncertain future -- patterns we leave behind will be brought back to implicate us, by whatever authority has now become focused upon our once-private and innocent acts. We lose our individuality, because everything we do is observable and recordable."

Awesome quote! Thanks for posting that!

thing is, we are being watched but we don't know it. Therefore the behavior of most is as if they have a mask on we speak the truth. But the authority can see straight through it if they choose to.

There is an easy response:

Do you close the door to your home ever?

Do you close your curtains at night?

If so, why?

If you have nothing to hide, what do you care if anyone sees what you are doing in the privacy of your own home? Why do you close your door? Why do you close your curtains? What have you got to hide?

Why did you lock your car? What are you hiding?

If there are no drugs up your butt, you won't mind if I check. rubber glove snappy noise

Hiding nothing, just protecting things I've paid for and would be pissed if stolen.

I'd add to that:

do you ever walk down the street without any clothes on?

If so, why?

If you have nothing to hide, what do you care if anyone sees your meat and two veg

I answer yes to both questions and here is why.

1) I don't want people to come in and steal my shit. I also don't want my cat to get out.

2) Closed curtains keep drafts out and warm air in

I hate this. I brought up NYPD's stop and frisk policy to a friend recently, and his response was "I don't see what's so bad about that, If you're not doing anything wrong then you shouldn't worry".

Same dumbass who says about TOR "Secret drug internet =/= freedom", after I was trying to explain to him about how it helps people all over by anonymizing.

Fucking sheep man.

So far from the generation that sacrificed for that freedom.....only to have it taken away again.

The only one's who have really learned from history are the one's who actually want to repeat it.

I dont want the government to know how much i pick mu nose and what kind of porn i watched this morning. I'm not breaking the law, but why give up my right for them not to know that i'm into double fisting?

If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him.-Cardinal Richelieu

Why do people downvote? Seems kinda brilliant and on topic.

I dunno. Catholics, maybe?

Well then, people like that won't complain when the government starts placing surveillance cameras in their bedrooms and bathrooms. Right?

You're talking to a slave.

Its something people are brainwashed into believing.

I mentioned this article to my boss's mother once and she gave me the old "nothing to worry about" line. I gently reminded her that not all cops are trustworthy. She told me that there were no crooked cops, only liars who make cops look bad. I directed the conversation away from this quickly. Yikes.

Are you doing anything wrong by voting? Then why do you need a private ballot?

Are you doing anything wrong by taking a shower? Okay, so it's cool to mount a CCTV camera in your bathroom, right?

Oh, and while we're at it, we're going to fit your car with a transponder that checks your speed and automatically transmits to the state troopers when you're speeding. That way they can just send you a ticket and there's no need for a dangerous high speed chase.

Well, it technically makes sense.

You really go 0-60 with your points.

[deleted]

You really need some time away from the internet :/

[deleted]

I have said nothing that implies that I am any sort of drug addict. You on the other hand..

[deleted]

Literally the worst advice ever.

The jews had nothing to hide.

Lucky me, I've never heard anyone actually say it.

I only feel this way because whenever this happens I am talking to a retard.

Yes.

I'll typically counter with the usual Ben Franklin quote: "those who would give up liberty for security will lose both and deserve neither" (or a variation thereof).

But yeah, for the most part people who think along those lines in your post are very naive and ignorant about the world they're living in. Most of them, where I am, are fundies and so their god will help them.

That is bullshit and has no context in the argument. You are either constitutionally guaranteed your rights to privacy, a hallmark of a free society or you are not and you live in a police state.

don't let people say that shit to you. It's a piece of crap line.

It's conditioning. They've been brainwashed to think being watched and controlled by others is normal.

I would hate to be in USA during the times when black people were treated like shit, spied on, abused and much more. I am sure all those black people were doing something wrong to deserve such treatment.

It never stopped.

When having a weeks worth of food and water makes you a terrorist then yes privacy is important. This argument only stands up in a just world scenario which doesn't exist.

The problem is when the people who carry the role of good guys are actually bad guys in the power structure.

For example, there was a troll prick on AOL once who used sockpuppets and pretended to be a woman, and conned phone numbers from guys he hated. Then he had his brother in law who was a cop do a reverse lookup on the number and pull private data out of databases available to law enforcement. Once the troll had the address and personal data, he turned off power to the guys' homes, and did other things.

Here's the point: there are corrupt or rotten people in official positions, and the less you have to give out to anyone, the safer you will be.

Everyone is doing something "wrong" anyway. There is no one who is truly above suspicion.

The very practical danger of "Innocent People Have Nothing To Hide" is J. Edgar Hoover & his political blackmail & political control.

Warrantless wiretapping is aimed at Congress & judges & public figures. The danger is totalitarianism, U.S.S.R.-style.

It's kind of sick that we have to argue against U.S.S.R. tactics being argued in favor of, with bullshit like "Innocent People Have Nothing To Hide".

Maybe it's your use of retard that I'm taking offense to, but I think you're the ignorant one. Do you have any idea how much effot it takes to spy on someone? I dont know about other people, but when I say it, I'm thinking that since I have nothing to hide, the government isn't going to spend the resources required to actually spy on me. And, well, it's true. I work in a law firm and a lot of the cases we take have to do with federal drug offenders, and a major aspect of those cases is surveillance. It's a fucking project taking thousands of man hours and a shit ton of money. I'm not saying that we do t have a right to privacy or that I don't value that right. I'm just saying that unless you're doing something wrong, the government (usually) doesn't give a shit what you're doing.

I also realize this is like posting a republican/conservative opinion on politics, so I'm fully expecting to be down voted. But I needed to get my two cents in.

Yes! My parent's! I haven't talked to them about this subject in quite a while but after 9/11 when the news started reporting about ID chips they actually thought they were a good idea and said exactly that.

Things like this are actually a good "filter"--if someone says this to you they are invariably an idiot.

I do think people that use the word retard should be stopped and searched

I think the argument then is that the definition of bad is what needs to be amended not the secrecy of the act deemed bad.

We wouldn't want to protect a murderers right to cover up the fact he murdered someone, we demand transparency when we are worried people might be doing bad things in government, people do bad things in their private lives too and the argument works both ways.

[deleted]

Well it depends, because ultimately if no-one thinks anything is bad, the statement in the title actually works. No-one has anything to hide because no-one will incur negative consequences as a result.

If we think something deserves negative consequences, we want to know so we can impose them. If we don't we don't care if we know. The question is then, what deserves negative consequences and not what should we have a right to know about people.

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Thieves-using-Facebook-and-Twitter-to-see-when-homeowners-leave---26500-burglaries-around-Ireland-last-year-168310536.html

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2012/07/veteran-lapd-officer-pleads-guilty-to-stealing-from-luxury-hotel.html

http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/2mv6z/he_served_at_the_nsa_for_46_years_when_he_died_he/

Hahaha, wow. You dont know what to say to me, so you post about it?

Seems like you took my words into your own interpretation. I also said, if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time, and theres other factors that go into this.

Don't make this into a good vs evil showdown of epic proportions. Life isn't a movie. Yes, we probably have a soon to be revolution..But there's no reason to worry, if you get over your perception of materialism. That's all im trying to say.

PS. African-American people were always treated horrible by the US, it's no different today

You really need some time away from the internet :/