I was wondering why a lot of the comments on this sub are attempting to debunk posts in such an offensive manner. This is r/conspiracy. I feel like this should be a group of like minded people working towards a greater good. Yes, some theories are a bit far fetched, but they are theories. If you want to be fed mass media "truths" you're in the wrong place. I don't understand why people have to be so hostile. Just an opinion. Downvotes to the left please!

Reddit is rigged. It has been just as much as the rest of the mainstream media for quite some time. The only thing is that Reddit pretends to be free, pretends to be alternative, but really it's run by the same CEOs. (look at their ownership - Advance Publications and S.I. Newhouse at the top of their pyramid) It's time to leave Reddit en masse like we did Digg and go to free websites.

yup. And when the company marketing can't deal with you they ban you.

see rpolitics.

Whooo! Obama!!!!

yea like how r/news is like all other mainstream sites.

I like reading and posting on reddit, but it's more or less IRC with pictures.

I used to point out the old Conde Naste copyright all the time. It was a downvote magnet.

PR teams are on reddit more than anyone else.

/r/hailcorporate and /r/theoryofreddit to learn more

Yes i cannot upvote this enough, as i a paid shill who sits on my computer all day downvoting stuff on reddit this would make my job easier, as if that was possible.

Be back later gotta go give obama a blowjob then bust people online.

Edit: edit.

Pretty sure the government doesn't hire illiterates.

You think the Gov't doesn't hire illiterates? You ever seen gov't work?

Pretty sure the government doesn't hire people to go on conspiracy sites and be rational. But i guess its more likely the government is behind this than to think that individuals were...

Right?

They hired George W. Bush, didn't they?

You want to try editing this?

Yeah I'm getting ready to bug out too.

to any particular destination?

Let's give this a try. http://pastebin.com/ER5bvR0n

Shit, I thought about this just this morning. Seriously considering it. After the last two days where I was forced to defend Alex Jones of all people against baseless ad hominem attacks with absolutely zero substance. I was up late and I could see the posts being created, upvoted, and seeded with "conversation starters" pointing in the intended direction. Alex Jones is "insane". Every single post on reddit about the interview on Piers Morgan's show said so. As the day went on and others started to back me up and point out the fact that these people were not actually making any argument, just name calling, and my faith in reddit returned. But for a while there I was watching the wretched entrails of the beasts writhe and spew forth caustic lies and disparagement, and I felt helpless against the onslaught.

And then the questioning, and the second-guessing of my perception started, but these people, whether "real" redditors being paid, or whole cloth fabrications invented to fill a role, they are vile and harmful. They spread lies and deception. They attack without adding anything to the conversation. They are parasites sucking from the lifeblood of our community for the profits of their corporate masters. Call them on it. Start a conversation about deception with them.

I don't know if I'm leaving reddit, but I am emboldened to call these people out, if not for being shills, for their deceptive tactics. Keep bringing the conversation back to the subject they are attempting to avoid and they will leave themselves or risk bringing too much attention to it.

Except he says retarded things like "Hitler took the guns!" When that isn't remotely true. He doesn't help himself is what I'm getting at

I appreciate your candor. I am a Green Party-er and a progressive but this attack on our freedoms is beyond party lines. AJ's views on certain issues are abhorrent to me, but I put that aside because the global takeover with its totalitarian agenda is far more pressing than the everyday political issues we normally deal with. Personally I believe we can't win and I wish Alex would just pack up and get his family out of the country because it is clear the CIA black ops is going to kill him. They can't afford not to. The killings have already begun as I'm sure you are aware of. Oh Alex's death will probably be staged to look like a suicide since TPTB are demonizing him and planting the idea in the public's minds that he is crazy. I feel sick at the level of evil in the rotten heart of our government. And that is the problem. When Hitler was already putting his draconian policies into place, the German people (and the Jews) COULD NOT CONCEIVE that their countrymen could be capable of that level of evil. And of course, Hitler controlled the media so misinformation was all the Germans got. The end result was history. I am done with reddit and anyway it's clear that since Obama claimed the power to control all communictions when he announced martial law ( in one of his unbelievable Executive Orders last year, we're not going to have the internet when he lowers that velvet-gloved fist of his. What really makes me sick is that I voted for him in '08. I wish you luck in the NWO.

What executive order are you referring to?

on acid?

I would not say that reddit is "rigged", but it is manipulated and swain buy the hive mind of reddit trough the use of up/down votes. The hive mind on reddit also does not look to kindly on things like conspiracy theories. This is why we have trolls and downvote brigades attacking this sub from time to time.

Karma doesn't matter other than an immediate barometer of how your post is being judged by those seeing it. Another redditor shared some very wise words with me once, changed my browsing and posting experience:

"If you're NOT getting downvotes sometimes, you are a very boring fucking person."

Heh, I embody every downvote I received when debating r/politics on 9/11.

Reddit has changed greatly. Often times solid comments get the "teenager downvote" but is there more to it? Before the porn and pets, it used to be a good site for people to communicate with one another.

As far as professional propaganda commenters, there are whole staffs of people paid to make disinformation and opinion on the internet using fake "community" names and identity. It should be illegal. Instead, it is paid for by tax dollars.

reddit is not "rigged"

http://www.reddit.com/r/Libertarian/comments/z3p7e/obama_answers_a_planted_question_in_his_ama_by_a/c61fshg

In case it's not clear: http://www.reddit.com/r/Libertarian/comments/z3p7e/obama_answers_a_planted_question_in_his_ama_by_a/c61hbga

Oh look an unverifiable reddit account verifying an unverifiable reddit account!

I am sold.

Yep, I mean what more proof could be asked for really...

The whole subreddit thing with moderators is the mechanism of rigging. Many weren't using the site back then and don't know, but there didn't use to be any moderators. Alternative news stories use to be just as high up on the page as any other news as long as it was interesting and had good sourcing. Which many do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HBGary#Astroturfing

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All

And ever notice how they test out certain ideas here? And then if they're popular we see it in the news the next week? This site is a tool, itbwas fun for a while bit they took it from us just like the rest.

If reddit isnt free, where would you suggest?

PrisonPlanet Forum.

Okay... but wouldn't that be a way to make these shills entirely successful in their efforts against /r/conspiracy?

Yeah my brother keeps telling me Reddit is garbage. He's a 4Chan man.

4chan

Related

Where would those free websites be and can we all go there already?

Planet Infowars.

what other sites are there?

Maybe start a reddit-like site only available on Tor.

that would be a dream come true.

Seriously, we both got downvoted. WTF.

^ on both :)

not the first time that i've been downvoted for asking questions in this subredit. the definition of irony.

once its online i'll sign up

There are a ton of smaller social networks and social bookmarking sites.

I think most users on conspiracy would be welcomed in open arms and fit right in on stormfront.com

can consider that

What?

Look, forum sliding to "lol racists!" may have worked for you on /pol/ (which is still full to the brim with leftists and rightists despite what your rumors state), but it just won't work here.

You just accused the majority of 100,000 people of being white nationalists.

On an international site.

So you consider that, K?

Nah... I'm good.

Hey...Who are you working for? Are you a shill? What are you trying to pull? Why would anyone from here want to go to Stormfront.com?

From their site: Founded in 1988, Stormfront Studios develops award-winning entertainment products for video game consoles. We focus exclusively on creating AAA-quality original games and high-profile licensed titles, and have earned a reputation as the developer of some of the best action-adventure games available today.

;-)

Yeah, wrong link I'm guessing?

Yeah; I'm sure they meant stormfront.org which is a white power site. But why just say that when you can be a smart-ass.

They aren't too pumped to have us Jews on their board...even though I'm Sephardic and speak out against the Ashkenazim/Israeli leaders often.

Oh, by the way, I know that you were just trying to make a dickish comment. Just making one back.

You're still here aren't you?

[deleted]

You sure as fuck know how to make a thread trenchant? Your words have made me moist, and I am ready for your impeccable knowledge. Quick question when you enter a thread should we bow or clap?

Careful, he's a real hacker. You don't want to cross one of those!

Well I think conflicting views and discussion are very healthy, and I am very happy to see a lot of that here. The hostility and paid misinformers are doing nothing but harming our subreddit though, and I hope we will be able to see through the bullshit and help each other find the truth. Thanks for one of the only non-hostile comments I've received. lol

How do you know theyre paid? Did they tell you that or are you just assuming ng that they must be?

there's like a whole budget section of the NSA paying staff to go online and make disinformation and opinion shaping. It was really prominent post 9/11. this government activity should be outlawed. it is using dishonest means on the people at home. In the military definition of PYSOPS, they're supposed to be used on foreign countries.

foreign country here, thx :p

you gave me a much needed laugh. thanks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HBGary#Astroturfing

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All

You're a paid shill if you're calling OP out on his BS speculations.

You must be a paid shill for disagreeing. I think that is the logic they are using.

I think OP is more talking about the personal attacks towards people rather than just a disagreement

Where on the internet might I find disagreements without personal attacks coming into play?

Immediate personal attacks for expressing an opinion or trying to start a discussion? It's bad form either way. Some people are paid to be that way, and some people are just freelance assholes. Neither are conducive to discussion of non-mainstream concepts.

Lol, let me know if you find any

1. You are good.

2. In the above post you accuse the members of this subreddit of being crazy.

3. In the above post you reduce all 100K of us to "they".

4. In the above post you reinforce the idea that posts like these are about silencing dissent, when they are about decorum, tone, respect, etc.

5. There is scads of evidence of "paid shills" working all ends of the web, it is not too much of a stretch to assume they are here as well. Perhaps it could be one guy selling Herbalife, or it could be 600 fake accounts. Can't tell.

6. Disagreement is not, and has never been the issue. You can repeat that ad nausea, but it does not make it true. The issue is decorum and tone and respect. Finally the issue is "if you don't like conspiracy theories, why are you here messing up our good time?"

Not sure if you are doing it on purpose, but this is a great example of a "bad" post, in my opinion, due to the factors above.

But when the OP using "they" statements, all is ok, right?

Yes. And I will tell you why.

This community exists for "us", who like to discuss conspiracy.

This community is infested with "them, who like to debunk all conspiracy.

The poster is speaking from the point of view a community member has, speaking to "us" about "them".

The shills and trolls speak about "them/they/you guize" from as outsiders having invaded.

Do you get the difference? It is subtle, but it is there.

So take the sub private.

Except there is actually zero evidence of paid shills on the internet.

^{^} Here's a good example.

Exactly my point. My profile is chock full of my paid shill disinformation, isn't it? There is no way I could just be some chick in Boston who calls out the OP for sweepingly calling out a shit ton of ppl as paid shills. Or you either for that matter.

I have no idea who you are, and you have no idea who I am. So it's entirely plausible we are both just assholes. Cheers!

Yeah I'm all for discussions but for instance this guy yelling about Richard Nixon... C'mon now. And you're welcome. I'm mostly just a lurker on here. I am a softie and don't want to cry in my pillow about how some stranger responds to my opinion.

Is it possible to make a list of these shills? Only problem with that is it might turn into a witch hunt and we might forget who we are really trying to stop here.

there's a few of them out there. Someone had sent me a list of their own one time. It was pretty enlightening to see the comment history from some of the usernames on that list. Like, OBVIOUSLY people with an agenda.

Shills just make new accounts.

And so far, the mods seem completely unwilling to ban even the most obvious of disruptive posters.

As someone who isn't a paid shill and gets called a shill by conspiritards multiple times daily, I can assure you that 99% of the people called shills on this subreddit aren't. Shill is basically code for "anyone who doesn't agree with my nonsensical bullshit.

That's really what's happening. I promise...big brother wouldn't have me...

i think that absolutely there is a way to have a discussion about these topics without either side of the issue resorting to "lolzorz faggot shill" or "trolololol you conspirafags are so stupid" etc. This should be a place to consider the alternative theories provided to explain the things that we can never be sure of, not to argue like children about topics none of us will ever know the true outcomes of for sure.

not to argue like children about topics none of us will ever know the true outcomes of for sure.

This is exactly correct.

Conspiracy discussion is more akin to philosophy than science. There are unlikely to be "hard evidence", but there will always be "neat shit to think about"

i couldnt agree more. It's the problem with many of these subreddits: people have a hard time keeping the discussion at hand civil and unbiased. It always just turns into some asshole white-knighting while another asshole trolls. it doesnt make for good debate or conversation. it just detracts from the credibility of the subject at hand

It blows my mind that you think that someone is paying people to downvote and spread misinformation on a tiny sub-forum of Reddit. Seriously, who would think that's a good investment? Yeah, let's pay people real wages to argue with hard-headed idiots on the internet. That'll show'm!

Does anyone know where I can sign up for a job like this?

You've already been disqualified.

[deleted]

Regardless of the validity of any of the discussion here, you are an absolute asshole and should be banned.

I have reported your post.

If you thought conflicting views and discussion were healthy, you wouldn't try to attack the credibility of those you disagree with by calling them shills. You don't give a fuck about discourse, what you care about is having a forum full of other delusional fear mongers so you can all circlejerk and reaffirm one another's insane ideas.

wouldn't attack the credibility of those you disagree with

what you care about is having a forum full of other delusional fear mongers so you can all circlejerk and reaffirm one another's insane ideas.

My irony alarm just exploded.

I gotta point out that for a guy who feels fit to judge others on their character and sanity, Willowsmith as Buttking trolled the hell out of me. He has no credibility of argument and no manners either. But he does like to spend time wasting other people's time and deflecting them from discourse.

The problem is a lot of the conspiricists around here display approximately zero skepticism or critical thinking capabilities. Anything that vaguely resembles a conspiracy? Swallow that shit whole and chase it with some Brawndo. For being so concerned about THE TRUTH, many of you display astoundingly little concern for things like facts, explanations or counter-arguments. If your conspiracy theory is grounded in truth, it should easily withstand the hordes of paid shills and media whores besieging your noble cause.

The problem is, by being so damn gullible, a lot of meaningful shadow-activity is obscured by easily debunked garbage. Frankly, it is making this subreddit increasingly useless.

Facts and figures and evidence on a subject by hundreds/thousands/millions of people who have looked at it ? Nope, can't trust it, because we don't know "who" collected it, and they could be being paid!

Random video on the internet and/or some site/show which is funded directly by people who will profit from you believing said conspiracies, e.g. water filters to remove fluoride being promoted by a show host who tells you that fluoride makes you dumb/mind controlled? YUP, gotta believe it, because they have no reason to deceive us.

I tried to change that. http://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/1637tn/this_is_a_forum_for_free_thinking_not_hate_speech/

This subreddit is a thinking ground, above all else we respect everyone's opinions and ALL religious beliefs and creeds.

I've found that most skeptical people aren't religious.

well it would seem that way but the number of christian conspiracy theory's in this subreddit would make me think otherwise

christian conspiracy theory

It is interesting - I am a conspiracy tinfoil type, but very much agnostic (not edgy).

The presence of Christian Conspiracy theories is strange to me as well, given what I see as an obvious social control system.... and so on. They unmask all devils but their own...so to speak.

If you hang out on godlikeproductions (don't), you will see a real deluge of Christian Conspiracy...usually mixed with the most base and easily dismissed other theories, like Nibiru or Morgellons or whatever.

From a purely tinfoil angle, it seems to me that there has been an external push to make this board more like GLP - easily dismissed and almost utterly looney - of course this might just be due to the influx of more and more users to the site.

Or it could be the result of HBGary software forum sliding toward dismissible theory and a general attitude of "they crazy" instead of "some of what they point out is creepy".

We used to discuss political chicanery here, almost 24/7. Now we talk about Ghosts and shit.

yeah I know what you mean. It's the satanic abuse ritual conspiracies that really get to me. I just can't believe in them. Or the grand conspiracies of governments secretly working for satan or jews are secretly praying to satan. It's just dumb

This is why i created /r/conspiratroll

The comments are offensive because reddit, and to a greater degree this sub, is inhabited by aspy, socially inept fucktards.

Incredibly great point...which just reinforces OPs also-great point. We SHOULD all be somewhat like-minded...at the very least not resorting to personal attacks and hatred.

Those are mostly the shills (hasbara and otherwise) squirming from the woodwork.

The cool thing is that its also pretty easy to identify the folks that use this SR for the good of all by their great comments and commenting regularity...and, with RES, easy to identify the shills paid or otherwise.

Cheers for the great attitude and thanks.

In the words of King (no, Rodney King)-- can't we all just get along? :-)

"I Was a Paid Internet Shill: How Shadowy Groups Manipulate Internet Opinion and Debate":

http://consciouslifenews.com/paid-internet-shill-shadowy-groups-manipulate-internet-opinion-debate/1147073/

Mass media truths have just as much evidence as the far-fetched conspiracy theories, if not more. The truth ALWAYS lies somewhere in the middle. People on this sub are realizing that much of what is posted is based on zero evidence and little fact, but plays very well on peoples' imaginations. Paid shills have nothing to do with the increase in resistance to conspiracy theories.

It's a pretty good rule of thumb that if someone comes out of the blue to attack a poster with insults and has NOTHING of substance to say about the actual point of the thread or the discussion at hand, that they are a shill or a troll.

Downvote and ignore with a vengeance.

They may be a troll, but don't you think calling them a "paid shrill" is a little farfetched?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HBGary#Astroturfing

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All

No. They exist. And I'm sure there's some of them on reddit. But you're right, not everyone that disagrees is one. And I will admit myself that I'm quick to jump to that conclusion when someone is being a jerk on this sub.

LET THE HEALING BEGIN!

You can tell which are which, though.. or rather at least I think I can. It's not like 9/11 wasn't an inside job, or that most of the people in power are psychopathic pedophiles. If people want to come at me and say "Hey.. you're stupid and I'm not going to read anything you link", well.. fuck them! I have better things to do. If people are that gullible, then shit.. maybe they need it, so one day they get another "cold bucket of water over the head" next time one of their rights are stolen from them, so they actually realize, for real.

No, because since the government knows about online media, they must be paying loads of people to shill for them, and not a single one has ever been fired or disgruntled, and produced the evidence of them being a literal paid shill.

they are a troll

FTFY. You guys are fucking retarded if you think someone is bothering to pay people to argue with you over the internet. There is no return on investment in trying to convince idiots that they are idiots.

The return on investment issue isn't even an issue. You're talking about the government. They do very little that gives an investment return.

Like how you were attempting to troll me with your witty little insults throughout our whole UAV debate while I kept it civil?

http://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/13q6cm/drones_go_from_flying_over_terrorists_to_us_cities/c7675kq

You can call it whatever you want, it's a free country [allegedly].

K.

[deleted]

Discussion is healthy.

It's also possible that a lot of the theories in /r/conspiracy are crazy and deserve to be downvoted and questioned.

Agreed. We can't blindly accept every conspiracy at face value. Believers of a conspiracy should justify it with discussion and sources instead of replying with things like "you just wouldn't understand" or "you need to wake up" etc.

Just because it's a conspiracy doesn't mean that all conspiracies are created equally or that the burden of proof no longer applies. If there is absolutely no evidence of a conspiracy then Occam's razor applies and there probably isn't one.

We can't give crazy conspiracies equal footing as those that might be genuine, else it devalues things which are actually true.

Believers of a conspiracy should justify it with discussion and sources instead of replying with things like "you just wouldn't understand" or "you need to wake up" etc.

And they should definitely stop throwing the "paid shill" accusation around. Seriously, all-purpose arguments are frowned upon for a reason, guys.

Even if someone was being paid to argue with some nobodies on the internet, which I find very unlikely, it still wouldn't mean they are immediately wrong in anything they say. If there's evidence for what this "paid shill" is saying, then it needs to be treated as such.

You find it very unlikely that anyone has ever been paid to argue on the internet?

I could cite endless sources proving that that happens all the time, but I have no clue why you're on /r/conspiracy and don't know that this happens all the time.

Corporations hire people who do this constantly. It's their job to go online and "debunk" rumors that paint their company in a poor light. They stick to the bigger sites like this one.

Countries do the same thing, as do staffers of individual government employees.

Wikipedia tracked IP addresses of people that made edits on their site for years without telling anyone. When they announced this fact to the world, they said that half of the edits on Wikipedia were made by the Pentagon.

"Non Governmental Organizations" do this all the time, too.

The web is replete with this. Just dripping with this. And you find it very unlikely that it has ever happened?

There are also companies who pay (or otherwise convince) their staff to go online and rate them on reviewcentre.com and yelp and so on. That's all just black hat marketing techniques.

We're not talking about that, or discrete wikipedia edits, or refutations of rumors. We're talking about "They will try and disrupt discussion and progress with personal attacks, irrelevant questions, mass downvotes and lies.".

These are all things which further absolutely nothing. If the discussion is about company X doing bad deed Y, and it devolves into ad hominem attacks, no one is going to be convinced that X isn't doing Y. The rumor or story about X doing Y will still be the status quo, and they will have to do it all over again in every single discussion and article about it that pops up.

I could cite endless sources proving that that happens all the time, but I have no clue why you're on /r/conspiracy and don't know that this happens all the time.

No you couldn't. And I doubt you'll even try to prove me wrong because you know you can't cite a single credible example of this.

Corporations hire people who do this constantly. It's their job to go online and "debunk" rumors that paint their company in a poor light. They stick to the bigger sites like this one. Countries do the same thing, as do staffers of individual government employees.

Sources? Besides you telling us it's true?

Wikipedia tracked IP addresses of people that made edits on their site for years without telling anyone. When they announced this fact to the world, they said that half of the edits on Wikipedia were made by the Pentagon.

Source?

The web is replete with this. Just dripping with this. And you find it very unlikely that it has ever happened?

No it's not. Yes, I find it highly unlikely that someone finds money so unappealing that they would throw it away paying people to argue with idiots on the internet.

Asking for a source is fine, but literally saying every statement I said is untrue and that I have to source it when a simple search will come up with proof is over the top. You have Google. Use it. There's a top story today on I think /r/worldpolitics where a government is hiring people to spread disinfo on the internet.

Also, when people ask for "credible" sources when they're obviously not on /r/conspiracy legitimately and are just a troll really means "Show me CNN or Fox saying that." No other source is "credible."

It's called the Burden of Proof. When you make wild claims, you're the one that's supposed to provide proof of said claims. I can google, yes, but so can you. You brought it up.

They're only wild claims if you refuse to believe them.

I know you're trolling, and you don't care about /r/conspiracy at all, but I suppose I'll provide a few just to shut you up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Water_Army

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpVUYGcgtjw

http://www.dailypaul.com/171416/israel-hires-internet-soldiers-to-penetrate-american-forums-chatrooms

http://www.infowars.com/government-to-monitor-social-networks-for-extremist-propaganda/

http://narcosphere.narconews.com/notebook/bill-conroy/2012/05/mexican-president-calder-n-hires-us-propaganda-firm

And I suppose agent provocateuring doesn't exist either?

So just because it happened a few times, that means it happens all the time? Also, that source list is very far from "endless"

Wow! Taking trolling to a whole new level! I said "endless," so I have to give you a list that LITERALLY never ends?!? Amazing!

Stop replying. Just take your medicine and walk off, ya bag of dicks.

No need to call me a bag of dicks - we're all friends here, but it's amusing to me that you think you've fed me medicine. Thanks for that.

bureaucrats monitor online forums

correcting opinions lmao. and we pay for it all.

Posting well thought out responses with sources for their information is excellent, that's what I would hope they would do.

others call it 'butting in' and 'spying' and even 'stalking' but. hey you think it's excellent.

have a nice pay.

That's a whole different topic, however. It still isn't "personal attacks, irrelevant questions, mass downvotes and lies".

It still isn't "personal attacks, irrelevant questions, mass downvotes and lies".

on what authority can you make such an assertion? ridiculous.

Authority? Maybe the definitions of terms, I huess. I mean you just stated what you think it is, and that doesn't fit into the description given in the OP.

it's not either or. it's both. you think they only monitor and 'correct' opinions only politely? Have you seen the type of people they get to do this stuff? Nuanced. LMAO.

Read the link on the sidebar. there are all sorts of tactics used by these scum.

Even if someone was being paid to argue with some nobodies on the internet, which I find very unlikely,

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HBGary#Astroturfing

Why is this getting downvoted?

Because he's posted those two links over a dozen times?

[deleted]

i havent seen them before

Seriously? I'm not joking about the "posted over a dozen times" part.

do i get a downvote too?

If you want.

You know why.

Paid shills.

[deleted]

Not necessarily. If someone was talking about how something was handled within the company I work, I wouldn't expect someone from outside the company to know either the facts which I know, or find the evidence which I am able to find.

It doesn't matter who they are paid by if they are presenting evidence for something. For example, if a police officer had video taped someone stabbing a police officer, you wouldn't disregard the recording as evidence simply because it was presented by their colleague.

The same holds true with explanations, if they are verifiable. If it's just a matter of an accusation and then someone from that company replies to basically say "nuh huh", then take either side as you see fit. However, if they say "not possible because of X", and X is true, then once again it doesn't matter who is paying them, if what they are saying is correct.

"Nobodies on the internet" fanned the flames of the Tunisian revolution that eventually became known as the "Arab Spring". Anonymous played a big role in that.

The government and elitists know how much of a threat the internet is to their power structures which is why they want so badly to regulate it and control it, many sites have already been reigned in by different means to make it difficult for unsanctioned messages to go viral, like youtube with its sponsor policy drawing the masses into pop garbage videos and other group think tactics.

There are different models of control, some overt like that as in the novel "1984" (think North Korea) where the government actively censors media and some more complicated like that in "A brave new world" or "Idiocracy".(think USA) where the public is bombarded with useless information and the government also partakes in a little censorship without the scrutiny or care of the apathetic masses.

Anyway my original point was supposed to be, ofcourse the government pays people to "use" the internet.

ofcourse the government pays people to "use" the internet

I'd be surprised if anybody in the entire world who knows what the internet is would try and argue against that.

which I find very unlikely

Well at least I changed your mind. :)

That's a pretty hefty strawman you're talking to there.

I still find it unlikely that --and I'll quote my post so it doesn't look like I'm trying to change what I'm saying-- "someone was being paid to argue with some nobodies on the internet".

Well your general attitude towards truth and people who value disseminating it I think is telling, Ive already explained why these nobodies can actually be dangerous to governments and why governments would want to control that conversation especially in an open forum visited by thousands like this that has the potential to be viewed by millions at any time and creating a culture that undermines governments power over people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_diplomacy_(Israel)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfmY1AYVpFc

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Internet_Defense_Force

http://wanttoknow.info/060205usmilitarycontrolinternet

and why governments would want to control that conversation especially in an open forum visited by thousands like this

I want to win the lottery, but that doesn't mean I'm constantly winning the lottery.

I always find this kind of topic baffling. The government is controlling the conversation, ok. So why are they letting you explain it?

I want to win the lottery, but that doesn't mean I'm constantly winning the lottery.

I don't see how that's relevant. We're talking about the likelihood of gov paying people to monitor and influence public discourse on the web, given the US' history wit black projects, I dont see it farfetched at all if any number of US gov agencies from the CIA to FBI would partake in this.

I always find this kind of topic baffling. The government is controlling the conversation, ok. So why are they letting you explain it?

It's not a threat now, only you and I will ever see these comments (probably), if they were smart they would prioritize by what is most dangerous in terms of content and viewership. And if you stick around a while you'll notice that the most popular threads always get inundated by the same old trolls with the same old double think propaganda, especially threads critical of Israel or the US.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfmY1AYVpFc

edit: Downvoters are welcome to reply.

So at best the government "controlling" the conversations is to make comments on threads? That's hardly controlling anything.

It's relevent in the sense that there is a massive difference between what someone wants and what happens. You make the claim that the government is controlling the conversation, yet here we all are, talking freely. All day, every day.

talking freely

You seem to be completely disregarding about 50% of this thread.

What the 50% of posts with "REDACTED" stamped across half the words?

You do realise free conversation goes both ways, it doesn't mean you get to have your say and no one can disagree.

What the 50% of posts with "REDACTED" stamped across half the words?

wat?

I've already explained that the gov would prioritize because they have limited numbers and they cant go with outright censorship because that would be too obvious, besides that Ive posted a shit tonne of links that show that governments actually do employ people to monitor and "weigh in" on the net that you conveniently ignore, so yeah, Im not the one in denial here.

So what, now that the thread is about to be archived you've lost interest in this? Seems legit.

There's nothing more to say. We've reached the point where you have your mind made up and the evidence given doesn't match the conclusion. I don't particularly want to waste my time explaining how the government having some web based jobs means that r/conspiracy is full of people paid to argue or throw out personal attacks. The only reason to believe it is, is paranoia or an unwaivering belief that "the government is bad therefore everything they do must be bad. Also X is bad so the government must be doing it".

You didn't specify which government in particular we were discussing, and I have proof that the Canadian and Israeli gov partake in this activity, Occam's razor would suggest that the US also does it since it has the most dirt to cover and Orwellian security depts. not only that, but there is evidence that they hired consulting firms to help them with it. The US gov has for a long time relied on corporate media for its "public relations" needs, the internet presents a major shift in demographics away from traditional news media which is worrying for them, they cant censor it outright but they will try to use money and influence to shift demographics away from 'harmful information'.

There's unwarranted paranoia and then there's close minded naivete.

So why are they letting you explain it?

Because for every person explaining it, there may be hundreds of other "people" ready to shout down the explanation and then refer to the whole population of this subreddit as crazy.

So your idea of the government controlling the conversation is that there dissenting voices, pulling people up when they venture in to the batshit insane realm that some people sometimes go. That sounds like they're doing the sub a favor.

look at this shill trying to get /r/conspiracy to stop calling people out for being shills. Nice try, shill!

bureaucrats monitor online forums

The firm alerts the government to questionable online comments and then employees in Foreign Affairs or the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, who have recently been trained in online posting, point the authors to information the government considers more accurate.

It looks to me like they're looking for incorrect copypasta-style facts. So, for instance, the argument that the Nazis disarmed the populace is being passed around on Facebook, when the Nazis never passed a gun control law and the gun registration in Germany predated the Nazi regime by nearly a decade. If there were an organized response, maybe that bullshit could get corrected. Especially when you're dealing with government-related policies and programs, this could be hugely useful. For instance, if more people knew what the 2012 NDAA actually did then perhaps people wouldn't have wasted all that furor and all those electrons yelling about it.

It's only one example of what we are allowed to know. We also hear that the work is contracted out. Also, the US and Canada have reciprocal domestic spying agreements. Pretty much Reddit is gamed like everything else. You are talking to paid posters and my link is only one proof.

We also hear that the work is contracted out

Meaning it involves in even more people who could easily out this allegedly massive scheme. This claim just fails the basic smell test because its necessary implications are so improbable as to be unbelievable, and thus needs extraordinary evidence. One link with one benign program is not sufficient.

could easily out this allegedly massive scheme

Exactly. How do you think we heard about it? Who would believe it, especially when they are paid to make it sound innocuous.

Next to subpoenaing the documents from CSA and NSA, there's not much I can give you. You might want to ask the army why so many people are posting on Reddit. They have a whole division of 101st keyboardists. I've seen them. An indiscreet bunch also, not to mention entirely inept and obvious.

See, but this is the same problem. I'm saying all they're doing is responding directly to authors of bullshit, pointing out bullshit. You seem to be implying that they're working on the actual internet, incognito, to affect the debate by injecting their ideas into it. This would require extraordinary evidence of the existence of such individuals, since the idea that it could be rigorously covered up is extraordinary in itself.

ETA: Even if they're lying and saying "we're just notifying BS authors of that their BS is BS," that means there's actually still a massive coverup of this program of manipulating social media, which has the same leak problems as a totally-covered-up one.

I didn't say it could be rigorously covered up. Obviously it is apparent.

Incognito on the internet is difficult? Really?

Extraordinary evidence is available. Give me subpoena powers and a special prosecutor and I will show you. Other than that, talk to someone in the 101st keyboardists.

talk to someone in the 101st keyboardists.

My quick googling appears to have this as just a bunch of avidly pro-war folks. This comic seems to sum it up - just guys who are OK with military action at the drop of a hat, not paid shills. Do you have any actual evidence of paid military shills?

Are you really asking a random internet poster to provide you with evidence of US army operations. Funny.

Give me subpoena powers and a special prosecutor, then maybe. Why don't you also ask me to provide you with the invasion plans for Canada?

If you want me to believe the claim, then yes, I'm going to ask you to substantiate it with evidence.

the McCain bill should be enough to show you where they wanted to go legally. These bills are usually lagging indicators.

Which McCain bill? The guy's something of a prolific legislator.

go look it up yourself. if you think the forums aren't monitored and gamed then you are either naive or being dishonest. Probably both.

go look it up yourself.

JSYK, I'm gonna treat that as "I have no evidence so I'm requiring you to produce it," which is the same as "I have no evidence."

I don't care what you treat it as. The fact you are asking a random internet poster for evidence without subpoena power or a special investigator is hilarious. Besides, I've already shown the indications from CBC and other sources. The subject is commonly accepted by all but you. You need evidence. LOLOL

Your indication from the CBC didn't support your assertion if you actually read it.

The subject is commonly accepted by all but you

It's commonly accepted by all here, which is a (thankfully) small microcosm of human experience.

you are a tool. we were all screaming about how all communications were being split off and monitored for years before AT&T let the cat out of the bag in trial.

Are you denying that this evidence exists? See no evil and all that.. good luck with that. Bliss.

and 100,000. it's bigger than most subreddits, and certainly has a lot more interesting content than r/aww

we were all screaming about how all communications were being split off and monitored for years before AT&T let the cat out of the bag in trial.

Which trial was this?

and 100,000. it's bigger than most subreddits, and certainly has a lot more interesting content than /r/aww

Yeah, but how many of those 100K are folks like me -- that is, folks with a macabre fascination with the conspiratorial mindset, and/or (in my case "and") a desire to yell at people they disagree with?

100k subscribers, how many more view and don't subscribe? (out of paranoia probably)

The AT&T trial where they exposed the fact that their main trunk line is split off into another building and everything that crosses their path is recorded and presumable sifted by echelon or TIA or whatever they call it now. Are you just playing dumb? This was huge news!

Is this what you're talking about?

that's one of the ones we know about yes. of course r/conspiracy posters were all nutcases for years screaming about this... until it was incidentally exposed.

"the capability to enable surveillance and analysis of internet content on a massive scale, including both overseas and purely domestic traffic." Former director of the NSA’s World Geopolitical and Military Analysis Reporting Group, William Binney, has estimated that 10 to 20 such facilities have been installed throughout the nation."

There's more. Much more.. . such as Facebook. Total Information Awareness. They weren't kidding.

The problem with proof is that some people simply don't see it as such. If I see a man laughing and smirking before getting into character on television I see a ploy. However if I link to this video to proove a point to a "debunker" do you know what will happen?

He will tell me that the man is in shock at which point he has diffused my proof. Now how do you argue with a man that doesn't even believe his own eyes? You cannot, there is a fundamental difference among "debunkers" and conspiracy theorists and it is that one will do anything to prove that the world is entirely normal and ruled by non personal phenomena and the other which is trying to bring to the attention of the people that fact that many of these situations are indeed orchestrated.

You will never change a debunkers mind even with proof, and if you are experienced in this "field" you would know it yourself. 9/11 has shitloads of proof in my opinion yet none in the opinion of the debunker. So where do we stand on 9/11? Nowhere.

Don't burden us with having to play these debunker games. They only slow us down and change absolutly nothing in the end. We should converse among eachother and not give a fuck about the skeptics who are not skeptics but biased individuals cloaked as such.

You will never change a debunkers mind even with proof

You're not trying to change a "debunker's" mind, if they are indeed a debunker. Your job as a submitter to /r/conspiracy is to raise awareness and convince people. Dismissing anyone who disagrees with you as a debunker is childish and, more importantly, devalues your conspiracy.

Don't burden us with having to play these debunker games. They only slow us down and change absolutly nothing in the end.

And this attitude is what destroys the credibility of /r/conspiracy.

You should assume no-one is a debunker, unless they prove otherwise, not the other way round.

If someone has a valid question or a differing opinion it does not make them a debunker, it gives you an opportunity to explain why you think what you think and provide evidence, if any. It's your opportunity to convince and convert someone to your way of thinking, which won't be achieved by ignoring them and dismissing people as "debunkers".

You know this thing called free speech we're all trying so valiantly to protect... it allows people to have different opinions than you. To label someone who disagrees with you as a "debunker" is misinformation and dishonest.

/r/conspiracy needs to grow up.

Your job as a submitter to /r/conspiracy is to raise awareness and convince people.

No it's not. This isn't occupy wall st. Your job is it have fun and explore new ideas. If people want to believe it or not, it is entirely up to them.

It is not anybody's job to convince anyone of anything in this sub reddit. If anything it's your job to help people learn to make up their own mind.

You're talking to me as If I have no experience with these people. I know exactly when a person is a debunker and when not. So don't even start this shit that I can't recognize the difference between someone with objective statements contrary to my belief and a fuckhead that will ignore everything you say and try to pull the issue into the rediculous.

I have had hundreds if not thousands of discussions with these people trying to make them see the proof but its just a waste of time and energy. Those who are open and see proof will know it others when presented with the same proof will shield from it, it is not up to us or me to crack down that shield and try to get that person to see the truth. Just as it is impossible to make an atheist see that there infact is more to life then the material.

It is not a question of proof, it is a question of the fundamental assumptions a person has. When a person holds dearly to his assumptions of the world and sees evidence to the contrary there are those that can start to perceive the world differently and there are those who will with all their might wiggle their way out.

You didn't address this element from my comment. The element that proof is different for everybody. There is a 40 page report made on the illegal behaviours of government officials in terms of vaccination policies, yet present those papers to someone that calls anti vaccine people loons and they will dismiss the entire report.

I know when Im dealing with reasonable person and when not. In the end if like me you have put out so much energy into these people you start to understand that there are people who act very logically and portray themselves as healthy skeptics but are infact incredibly biased and closed of.

We don't owe these people anything. We as a group are not burdened with convicning the entire world. Its not up to us, we are here and we will always be here. It is up to the otherside to come to realization. And ussually people will start to ease up on the ideas presented here, it takes a long time for some of these things to seep into these hard heads. But with time nothing is impossible.

I know exactly when a person is a debunker and when not.

Given your examples, maybe you don't. I wouldn't call the person in your scenario a "debunker" at all.

Howver, you're right that the definition of proof is different for everyone. Some people have lower standards of proof than others.

For instance, using your previous example:

If I see a man laughing and smirking before getting into character on television I see a ploy.

You've seen a video of a single moment that's taken out of context. You don't know what was being said before or how a man reacts in given situations like when he's grieving or anxious. Have you never felt like laughing at inappropriate moments like a funeral?

However, you've accepted that as cast iron proof that the guy's an actor.

It's not unreasonable for rational people to ask for a little more evidence before jumping to conclusions.

He will tell me that the man is in shock at which point he has diffused my proof.

Which is a more likely explanation than the guy being a paid actor in a pantomime put on by the government to sway public opinion and steal their liberties as protected by the constitution.

Instead of labeling that person a "debunker" engage them in a conversation, giving them a different perspective, and offer more evidence.

If there is no more evidence, then maybe you're the one that's wrong. And that's a question which you should ask yourself regularly.

Skepticism is healthy for a conspiracy theory subreddit and should be encouraged. If theorists can't justify themselves it shouldn't be a theory.

We as a group are not burdened with convicning the entire world. Its not up to us, we are here and we will always be here. It is up to the otherside to come to realization.

Then why post? If it's enough for you that you personally know, why bother posting to tell other people?

If everyone had that attitude then no conspiracies would be uncovered at all.

Unrelated to the dude you were talking to, but I have some thoughts to add to the mix.

I think it is more about the mindset of "debunking", and this is something that we can't really point out or show evidence of outside of this discussion.

Let us just suppose there is a kind of person who enjoys "debunking". They will see debunkery where the wish to, just as a conspiracy person may see conspiracy.

The issue then becomes: what is this subreddit for? It is for those who enjoy entertaining crazy, far reaching conspiratorial ideas? Or is it for those who enjoy proving those theories incorrect?

There is a large difference between a discussion between two conspiracy people who disagree, and a conspiracy person and a debunker.

For example, I don't think contrails are real. A lot of people do. Rather than tell them they are wrong, or try to best them at argument online, I use the opportunity to ask pertinent questions about their beliefs, so I can better understand them. This is essentially my approach to religious people as well.

Which is a more likely explanation than the guy being a paid actor in a pantomime put on by the government to sway public opinion and steal their liberties as protected by the constitution.

Occam's Razor is like kryptonite to bad logic.

So don't even start this shit that I can't recognize the difference between someone with objective statements contrary to my belief and a fuckhead that will ignore everything you say and try to pull the issue into the rediculous.

Have you objectively/independently verified you were right every time?

For a while when I was younger I thought you could easily tell something about someone's personality by the way they looked. I'd see someone I regarded as "bad" and see them maybe not hold a door for someone that they conceivable could have, and that goes to add weight to my theory. I never spoke to these people, I never saw them in any other situation, on any other day, but I was convinced because of the evidence I saw. Confirmation bias, as it's known.

This might be why your "proof" is often disregarded by a third party. The human brain isn't as rational as it should be. People see things that they want to see, things that confirm what they believe and so on. If you already believe that there is a mass media conspiracy regarding X, and you see the news anchor laugh before presenting the story, you'll naturally take that as evidence you're right. That's working on the assumption that you are already correct about the conspiracy however, because on it's own without the pre-existing theory, that alone is evidence is exactly nothing.

It is not a question of proof, it is a question of the fundamental assumptions a person has.

Thats exactly what I said. I know people can be different from what they appear to be. But none the less there is a pattern, a way of thinking that is closed of. And I don't claim to know all infact the more I search the less I know. But atleast I'm open and being scolded for that openens being rediculed to go in thought where none dare go is enough for me to put you (not you persé) in that catagory of people no time should be spent on.

Even though I am defening the conspiracy movement I do not identify with it. Truth to me lies else where. It lies not in intellect for the intellect is a tool constrained by subjectivity and as long as there is that there is no truth. I am aware that by generalizing and catagorizing and judging I am indeed working from a fictional construct. But I need to use my energy efficiently and knowing when you are going to make a difference in a persons mind and when not is important.

Those who have a mind ready will accept the water given, those who's mind is solid will reject the water. And in this analogy the preparetion of a mind to become softened is not something to be done from outside (other people). It is a process that happens inside (self). This is something nobody can help with.

I recognize that you speak alot of truth and are wise, take care.

Peace out, friend.

rediculous.

When one diculous isn't enough.

The problem with that is that some "researchers" like Michael Tsarion claim things like ancient ice from a former "water world" planet would contain frozen fish and frogs that would reanimate upon entering the atmosphere...and were responsible for the "frogs raining from the sky" bullshit from the bible. Now, is it me that won't accept things no matter what proof I'm shown? I think one has to be willfully stupid to believe something like that.

Ofcourse there are an incredibly amount of levels and variables I can't possibly antisipate each and every goddamn conspiracy and mind which perceives it. I know I know I know. There are many theories that go way out, however an intelligent man is one who can differentiate a stupid man paints with a broad brush.

Questioned? Of course. Downvoted? Not here, I don't think.

I'm not a 9/11 truther, but the way people acted when you questioned anything regarding 9/11 really turned me off. What's wrong with asking a legitimate question? That's what I think r/conspiracy can offer - the safety to "question everything"

Honestly, people seem especially downvote happy on this subreddit. It's kind of sad, really, because conspiracies are what the internet was made for. Who knows how much longer we'll be freely able to question everything like this? To the guy below me, yeah, we definitely need to question that claim; but only to make sure that we have the most accurate picture of the grand conspiracy.

Some of them are even purposely crazy and silly. Those also deserve to be downvoted.

I see these PSAs posted every couple months telling people to watch out for paid shills and manipulators, but I think this speaks to the problem of r/conspiracy. When someone disagrees with an idea in other places then its just a difference in opinion or perspective, we may think that they are wrong but at the end of the day its just a disagreement. When it comes to r/conspiracy though its not just a mere difference of opinion, it turns the person who disagrees into some "agent of disinformation" or "paid shills", they always have an ulterior motive to silence discussion. I find this pretty silly because it speaks to an idea of inflated self-importance, believe it or not in reality this is just another sub on Reddit and its not even one of the most populated, its not actually all that influential to the greater society as a whole so guess what, the government or corporations dont give a shit what people say here, in fact its very existence shows that nobody really cares. You can talk about the Illuminati, suicide pills, bilderberg group or all of the other topics that get discussed here all you want and nobody is going to silence you, but one thing you will find are plenty of people who disagree and nobody needs to be on a payroll for that to be the case. This is why I find it kinda funny that the term free thinkers is used to describe the many people who visit this sub because it seems extremely closed minded to have a reactionary response that when people disagree with you they must be part of some larger machine determined to crush you

Honestly I wish someone would pay me for all my internet comments

Yeah, what that guy said.

Downvoted? Maybe, depends on each individual's thoughts on the subject.

Questioned? Yes. Everything should be questioned, even your dearest beliefs.

106 upvotes in here? Umm...now that's an organized wolf pack.

I'm not saying we shouldn't, but there are professional trolls and they hurt legitimate discussion.

Who is paying these "professional trolls"?

MONSANTO! OR DA RETILE PPLZ

HALLY-BURTONZ AN GEORGE BUSH LOLOLOLOZ YOLOLOLZ!!!11

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HBGary#Astroturfing

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HBGary#Astroturfing

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All

Looks at ground, sigh...we are.

Shut it down

Switch tactics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HBGary#Astroturfing

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All

You're a professional paid shill if you happen to call OP out on his BS presumption, that's who. Would like a source from OP? Well that makes you a professional troll. Not all theories are created equal and a lot of ridiculous ones should be weeded out. Legitimate discussion means you should be able to ridicule ridiculous topics.

Legitimate discussion means you should be able to ridicule ridiculous topics.

Are you twelve? No seriously.

Legitimate discussion has nothing to do with "ridicule ridiculous topics".

Legitimate discussion means asking pertinent questions, wanting to understand the other point of view.

If you have already decided a topic is ridiculous, there will be no legitimate discussion.

Get it?

ridicule ridiculous topics.

Ridiculous mean it's so bad it deserves ridicule. If it really is that much of an idiotic idea, don't let anyone get away with trying to give it any merit. Consider that people have gotten to the conclusion that a topic is completely meritless independently. Legitimate discussion means you don't let in retarded dialogue.

Ridiculous mean it's so bad it deserves ridicule.

Your biased opinion is stopping you from learning anything about what other people think.

You can learn about an opinion without embracing it.

I haven't brought up any issues, you don't know if I am biased towards anything at all. I'm just saying that it is detrimental for legitimate discussion if we pretend truly ridiculous topics merit our time and effort. If someone wants to make a case for something ridiculous, that's there problem, but there are so many other much more legitimate topics out there that we could be focusing on instead. See, people could potentially embrace a ridiculous topic, make it look as silly at it actually is. Your legitimate topic is that much less legitimate if people are arguing for the ridiculous.

I'm just saying, if you want legitimate discussion, you can't worry about people's feelings (which is the only reason a truly ridiculous topic would ever not be ridiculed). Now determining what makes a legitimate topic and what makes a ridiculous topic is a completely other issue.

I haven't brought up any issues, you don't know if I am biased towards anything at all.

You stated it is your personal job to ridicule that which you personally find ridiculous.

Don't change the subject to discussion and worrying about peoples feelings - this is about you and your notion that anything you deem ridiculous automatically is so.

Look, I'm sure right now you're think you're the champion of critical thinking and openness, but think about what you're arguing for.

this is about you and your notion that anything you deem ridiculous automatically is so.

Well no shit, if I take my time and independently find a topic to be ridiculous, then that's my opinion of it! It's like saying 2 = 2, if I find something to be ridiculous, then, for me, it's ridiculous!

Now that I found something to be ridiculous, using my critical thinking skills as best as I could, I would want others to realize how ridiculous it is as well, lest someone actually decides to take it seriously. That's what I meant by ridicule the ridiculous. If you see something you found to be ridiculous, a detriment to a legitimate discussion, or just plainly a negative force in the world, it is your duty to try get people away from that path!

Whether or not you are right in determining something as a ridiculous or legitimate topic is a whole other matter. However, if you trust your own critical thinking skills (which people usually do), then you should go out of your way to show how little merit the topic actually has. Maybe your critical thinking skills were flawed, to which I would say that you should keep an open and skeptical mind and etc. etc. That's another topic. All I know is that if you come across something retarded, don't let it get away with being on par with real topics.

Neither you or I are here to police the conversations being had on this website.

I think you don't get that.

This is a forum for discussion. We discuss. The duty of maintaining a quality discussion is that of everyone in the discussion. It's about forming your own opinions and changing that of others. As long as this website doesn't start focusing on lectures, it is sort of our job to police the information being conveyed.

If you see BS, the don't let people get away with it! That's what it takes to build a healthy legitimate dialogue.

Denial is so much easier than actual research, huh. That's one example. Surely there can't be any others, right? Right? Guys? Amiright?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HBGary#Astroturfing

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All

Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they're paid to do so

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HBGary#Astroturfing

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All

You wouldn't want your opinions challenged, would you? That'd be crazy.

You wouldn't want your opinions challenged, would you? That'd be crazy.

I don't understand what you are saying

I have no problem having my opinions challenged, that is how people grow as individuals. I have been wrong many times.

The issue is about people disagreeing with me, while at the same time implying that I am mentally unfit for society because of my opinion.

That's not what you said

I said

Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they're paid to do so

You replied with links showing that some people are paid to post on "social media"

I agree with you.

And now you know that some people are paid to post online, which is something your statement seems to imply.

A great deal of people who disagree with me are real people and I value their input.

Some people are paid as sex workers, so he called you a whore.

It all checks out after a pint of schnapps and some airplane glue.

Evidence?

It'll be a youtube link to some slow dramatic music with windows movie maker text.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HBGary#Astroturfing

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All

I don't know why you're getting downvoted. :\

But I did question the source on them, especially when I found out the source on the wikipedia page was a blog. But apparently they come from hacked emails from anonymous, so you are quite right. Which is actually worse. Hahaha.

Closes curtains

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HBGary#Astroturfing

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All

Legitimate discussion in /r/conspiracy? Since when?

Name one!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HBGary#Astroturfing

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All

Bingo! Tabloid bullshit and crazy people who cant handle details. Its pathetic.

and deserve to be downvoted and questioned.

When I see a post I don't like, I either just downvote it and move on, or I just move on.

I don't understand where the compulsion to tell other people having discussions you are not really party to that they are wrong.

I could hang out on r/christianity all day with your attitude, right? But I don't. Because I am not a dick.

When I see a post I don't like, I either just downvote it and move on, or I just move on.

Don't do that. Downvote posts that detract from the conversation or add nothing to the discussion. Downvoting because you don't like something is frowned upon here.

Downvoting because you don't like something is frowned upon here.

Thanks for quoting reddiquette to me and completely taking my post out of context.

I am stating exactly what you are correcting me with.

First they came for the communists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist...

Do you recognize that quote? Do you know where it's from?

That's why you should speak up if you see someone spreading false or dangerous beliefs, even if it doesn't involve you.

I believe that would be you going for the communists. The point of that quote is to stand up against injustice, not to call those who you disagree with false and dangerous.

That doesn't mean there shouldn't be a discussion of them. That's what the sub was for.

[deleted]

[deleted]

Oh shit really? My whole life is a lie!!!

'Laye'

Or in Canada, All those in agreement say aye, aye.

I've also noticed people posting complete bullshit conspiracies with absolutely no basis of said conspiracy. It discredits the information, and posts on this subreddit when that happens. Then we all look like morons.

I don't want to say they are all (or any for that matter) paid shills to discredit us...but if you have a theory (not you glassonglass or your post here, just referring to the other posts I see constantly), for god sakes at least back it up with some facts, some events, or some god dammit plausibility.

Keep in mind, there's a whole sub full of people who have nothing better to do than try to make this sub look stupid and full of loonies.

And there's /r/conspiratard, too.

Anyone can call out possible trolls at /r/conspiratroll

It's also a nice way to keep the "who's a troll" debate off of /r/conspiracy .

...Anyone who's specifically been invited.

First thread I've read on here, and the very existence of that sub shows how threatened some people feel by information they don't like.

Doesn't the same go for this sub?

I wouldn't say so. Sure, some people will form an attachment to certain beliefs and don't take it very well when someone threatens that, but this sub isn't made specifically to attack people who hold different beliefs. That one clearly is.

Even the skeptic sub(s) have more credibility than that one, because at least (from what i've seen) they try to back up their opinions with research and evidence.

Have an upvote.

Keep in mind, there's a whole sub full of people who have nothing better to do than try to make people believe in radical misinformation. That is why /r/conspiratard exists.

Conspiratard exists to mock the ridiculous claims people make using false and non-existent evidence.

There is a big difference between connecting the dots and making claims based on ignorance. If you can debunk someone's theory with a quick google search then they just suck.

sometime I feel like the people on this sub are oblivious to reality, heres my argument broken down.

1) most posters on this sub dont use legitimate evidence, they use many assumptions on "predictions". Ie you try to sound scientific or professional...but your usually a person with little expertise in the field that you base your conspiracy on. Like how many actually know about how the economy works and what the roots of your 'traditional" or passed down conspiracy theory is based on? p.s i have my own c. theories on things; which are backed up by my degrees in science and chem, I dont belivie in the NWO because its a undeveloped assumption; moreover all of the theorist of the NWO or illumanti are in these (any or all) groups christian, stoners ,drop out, no girlfriend, ex- Christians, video game addicts, fatansy lover, and soforth along that path, and this is why you may find sub redditts such as /r/conspiratroll or /r/conspiratardmake these sound more like propagandist try to instill fear in us.

final statement wikileaks has legitimized themselves by solid fact based evidence, such a stolen government documents, maybe we can learn a thing or two fro journalist fighting against censorship.

2+ 2=5

there should be a fact checker sub, consisting of members with a set amount of years.... just saying, this way we can shame the people trying to discredit potential posts.

Good luck getting people to agree upon a commonly accepted set of facts.

Pfft.. ain't that the truth

lols this comment made me piss a little

Having more time under your belt doesn't mean much though. I lurked around here for a few months before making an account, I'm sure others have as well.

im talking years.... at least 3

I've also noticed people posting complete bullshit conspiracies. PERIOD.

FTFY

I'm not sure I really see the difference. Sure yours is more efficient, but is that what FTFY has become? I always thought is was a joke on the internet to imply the OP did not go far enough. Like "I hate peanuts" to "peanuts are fucking horrible - ftfy"

Edit: I like peanuts

the joke is that you qualified your statement with a bunch of other stuff. my FTFY essentially says "That's funny, I just see people posting complete bullshit conspiracies. PERIOD."

I.E. all the conspiracies posted are bullshit conspiracies.

I have read a good number of conspiracies which government or corporations have refused to admit despite many cited, credible sources. Its not all "aliens abducted me" or "the president hit the button that sent the holographic airplanes into the twin towers." Although a lot of it is, thus my complaint.

I get where you're coming from. I doubt Oswald was a lone gunmen, but 99% of the shit that gets posted here is absolutely absurd and in no way reflective of reality.

That would be a good conspiracy though, that there was a conspiracy of redditors paying people to attack /r/conspiracy.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HBGary#Astroturfing

Just because someone is disagreeing with you doesn't mean you're being targeted by the powers that be. I'm new to conspiracy and many of my comments have been disagreeing with people or playing the devil's advocate, not to disrupt the discussion or piss them off, but because debate fosters the best discussion. Our conspiracy beliefs are all different, ranging from only believing there's something someone's hiding something about the recent mass shootings to full on believing that lizard people run the earth in secret. The best way anyone is going to be able to express their beliefs is going to be defending them from a nonbeliever, and in the process both parties are likely to gain some understanding that may shift their views.

That's the biggest problem with conspiracy theorists really, that when anything goes against us at all, someone's going to blame it on big brother. If there are paid shills here they're doing a terrible job, one man alone could easily wreak havoc. Basically just don't cry wolf, or nobody will give us a second look if or when the site is actual absolutely flooded by shills.

well lets be honest, the reptilians really do run the world.

We do

Okay I haven't done much research on the reptile thing. I watched a couple videos and they kept showing when Bush & the Royal family blinked how you could see they were reptiles. I honestly didn't see anything. Now I am a very open minded person. I also think most conspiracies are connected. Any good movies or something I can watch that explains this reptile theory?

Edit-seriously fuck this sub. I ask a simple honest question and people downvote me. Jokes on you. I give zero fucks about karma.

Look up some of David Icke's hour long snoozefest videos on youtube. Get ready for some serious crazy.

serious crazy

While I agree in essence, I also think Icke is a masterful artist of "crazy".

No, because they don't exist, a good video that is

I feel as though this would be easy to debunk were it untrue. The lack of such evidence is disconcerting to say the least.

You must be joking?

Maybe I'm just the only guy that likes to keep it in his array of possibilities. There are a lot of unspoken people about this, and knowing the social suicide of believing something extreme like this I wouldn't quickly discount it as mental illness unless the latter was clinically proven.

I think if you believe that stuff it is some form of mental illness, even a little bit. But hey, maybe I'm closed minded.

[deleted]

I have. I replied to another comment have a look.

Lol kinda like disproving god's existence?

Those drugs you're taking are bad for you

I'm new to conspiracy

Just get out while you still can, seriously.

You're right, we should not cry wolf, that's why I'm asking for everyone to come here with a clear head and sound judgement.

I get that and I'm all for critical thinking, it's just the wording comes off very strong. For example, after saying hello you immediately jump into "I've noticed a disturbing number of paid shills watching and attacking /r/conspiracy lately." If you think it's plausible that we could be under attack try first mentioning the downvotes and disruption, then explain why our community would be worth attacking and who would benefit, then finally conclude with the claim that you think we're under attack. When you come at someone full force you're likely to just come off as crazy like alex jones did on piers morgan. If you want to truly convince a non-believer, you have to ease them through the logic steps slowly, at least until your take their conspiracy-virginity and their eyes are open enough to stop blindly believing.

I'm sorry if you didn't like my post! I usually just lurk and writing is not one of my strengths. I was just hoping to inform some people that may be unaware that we should be on the look out for people with ulterior motives.

Fight on my friend.

no need to be so apologetic buddy, you're attempting to spread information so as far as I'm concerned you're good people, I'm just trying to give you some advice for the future so people don't just brush you off as a nutjob.

Thanks for the advice. I assume that regulars of this sub or even visitors of this sub might already be catching on to the fact we have shill visitors and how they operate. I was looking to start a discussion about this and hopefully provide positive actions we could take to improve our sub-reddit. Thanks!

Not sure why this was downvoted...

not enough foam at the mouth

shills! lol jk

I got him back to zero. Not sure why either. Sometimes reddit downvotes for the dumbest shit.

This is something I'm slowly learning!

I've posted something similar to this as well. But what I find odd is why some stories which are clearly fact driven and pulled from headlines are being posted into /r/conspiracy. Then the crazy stories which have a true conspiracy twist to them and seems to be mostly opinion of the writer are posted in /r/politics. I truly believe censorship and manipulation is abound on this site. Just like other sites. I'm not saying it's run amok or anything but I notice several instances each week. It's kind of annoying in a childish way but I just chalk it up to immaturity and a failure to have basic understanding of social media. Then again maybe I just think too much!!

lulz

Great post, I wish I'd read it before typing out my (mostly redundant) two cents.

In OP's world, your 2 paragraphs are proof beyond doubt that you are a paid shill. Thanks for disagreeing!

new...yeah

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HBGary#Astroturfing

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All

[deleted]

My brain exploded from all the red links.

They are all blue to me but I'm in night mode.

48, according to Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite

Thirty-five! Thirty-five endorsements! Ah ah ah

that guy died awhile ago (last year?) IRL :(

Sometimes I wonder if you're a shill because the sheer volume of the links you post is overwhelming to the point where I don't want to click on any of them. This may of course be paranoia on my part.

It's a bot

yrugay is, I believe, a bot that posts links related to what we are talking about.

usually everyone downvotes and attacks yrugay, which is unfortunate. The majority of the links in this one are on-topic and should be read by everyone who frequents this subreddit.

how do you have so much free time?

Maybe they're unemployed due to unwillingness or paranoia of working for their oppressors.

whoa.

You deserve gold for this sir, I wish I had a means to do it, but you absolutely are awesome.

Is this a thing now? Claim to be broke and want to give gold, then receive up-votes?

Well seeing as how I haven't received any, and really am broke...I'm gonna go ahead and say no. I just genuinely think it was a great post.

Awesome. That's what the up vote button is for. The comment was superfluous....

I regret that I have but one upvote to give!

Here's my conspiracy: this post was written by the powers that be in order to gain your trust for OP's account. Boom! I'm good at this shit!

fuck! Switch tactics!

Too late! Shut it down!

Switch Partners

Do-Si-Do

This is what I am talking about. You and I are not assholes, we both can entertain conspiracy, and we both don't take it too seriously.

High five.

High Five!

I delete my reddit account every few months...if you get a random high five from anyone in the future, it is probably me.

Be well.

Happy trails/to you/until we meet again...

Usually I find it to be the opposite - While I'm not a shill (even though I have been called one many, many times in the past), I find myself being attacked personally by some people in this subreddit I try to discuss topics with.

That's a shame. Personal attacks are one of the shill's most used tactics. If someone who is not a shill is attacking you personally, we should disregard them as well.

Can you provide even one credible example of shills existing on this subreddit?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HBGary#Astroturfing

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All

Can you provide even one credible example of shills existing on this subreddit?

What everyone apparently fails to realize is that we, /r/conspiracy subscribers, are exactly the audience companies/goverment/organizations aren't trying to influence. We aren't nearly as susceptible to the propaganda, and we have our minds pretty much made up about how we feel about a particular issue, that the effort would be wasted compared to shilling in more neutral areas of the internet.

The point to my comment was that this subreddit is the last place a paid shill would go to spread misinformation, yet everyone accuses everyone of being a shill if they disagree with their conspiracy. TRUST ME, no one of the 102,448 subscribers to this sub are getting paid to post here.

are exactly the audience companies aren't trying to influence.

companies? I am talking about government groups and think tanks dude.

aren't nearly as susceptible to the propaganda

Every link on the front page 3 days ago was to CNN and Alex Jones, so I disagree.

last place a paid shill would go to spread disinformation

I agree - they already ruined the other places!

[deleted]

What are you talking about? If you're concerned about my credibility, take a gander through my comment history. The government is mismanaged, lazy and disorganized. There's no way they would spend this much time building up a "shill" account.

Yeah. That sounds like something a shill would say though!!

Nice try.

(I'm joking)

I do battle with this adjunct subordinate of r/conspiratard on a daily. Claims to be libertarian but lives rent free on a sub that is bent on libertarian destruction. He vomits lies. In no way do I see a person of which he claims to be, associate with Hasbara Trills. This is the only way to describe how I felt after our conversation today. http://i.imgur.com/bFtY4.gif

Daily? We've "debated" once. I attempted to debunk an inaccurate claim on the recent Sandy Hook thread. Immediately (in your first response to me) you jumped into personal insults and accused me of being a shill.

That sounds exactly like what a shill would say!

I assume Poe's Law, since you actually managed to put together a coherent sentence while calling me a shill.

Jews the government of UN censorship of disturbing shill document.

Much better.

This is literally proof that you are wrong:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HBGary#Astroturfing

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HBGary#Astroturfing

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All

Ok, we get it. Add some context to these two links. Switch it up. Add more. Jeez. I've already seen this a dozen times from you in this thread alone.

it is pretty clearly needed information, given the astounding amount of ignorance in this thread.

I know. Just give some context and explanation each time.

The context and explanation is all through this thread.

I think you are peeling grapes.

If there are shills on here, I believe they are more subtle and subversive than /u/glassonglass suggests: that is to say, I suspect the real shills are the ones who post crazy, illogical items that are inexplicably upvoted into the stratosphere by virtual shills.

I am only a casual observer of this subreddit these days, but I feel that the overall quality of highly upvoted posts has gone down significantly over the last few months. Posts on the front page are either circlejerk images or conspiracies with the most tenuous of claims. As a skeptic with regard to most conspiracy theories I'd say that most items that get posted on here are so outlandish and unsupported by any evidence that they do not merit much thought.

An even more subversive type of shilling is one where there may be a genuine conspiracy but then the proponents go a few steps too far into making unnecessary assertions that are highly questionable. I'll cite what may turn out to be an unpopular example: 9/11.

There are frightening connections between the Bush family and the Bin Laden family. There's significant proof that Al Quaeda was either tiny or possibly didn't even exist in the way that most Americans think it did. Some people made huge amounts of money that day, and it appeared that some people may have been warned. There were suspicious military exercises going on that day that led to a perfect storm of non-response on the part of the US defense. But guess what, a lot of 9/11 stuff I see tailspins into pointless debates about whether or not the buildings were taken down by planes or bombs.

Without going into detail, I'll state that I am in the "planes were used on the WTC" camp. But that's not my point and please don't get distracted by that - from the perspective of caring about and investigating a 'conspiracy', you should not care whether it was planes or bombs. What you should care about is the political and financial ties between the major players involved in 9/11, and who stood to benefit the most. Some people who benefitted may have just gotten lucky, but there's an awful lot of coincidences that suggest that at least some of the parties in question may in fact have colluded.

On the subject of skepticism, I'm a big believer that most 'conspiracies' that people think exist are accidental or unintentional. The Hermany/Chomsky classic Manufacturing Consent is a fantastic study and analysis of what I'm talking about. It appeared that several parties were engaging in a conspiracy related to the US role in Latin America in the 70s when they were most likely just acting in their own self interest in a way that happened to be mutually beneficial. I also think that the few real conspiracies that have existed have been rather short term as they have a tendency to implode messily after taking a stab or two at their initial goals (e.g., the various Illuminati groups in the late 1700s). IMO the people "in control" are generally too disorganized and ineffectual to actually pull off a full blown conspiracy.

One last thing - criticism of propaganda and lies is frequently conflated with 'conspiracy' in this subreddit. It should not be a surprise that some politicians and some big corporations lie. Once a fairly substantial minority of the populace is aware of the issue it's not much of a conspiracy. I'm on here because I am interested in theories about elaborate schemes involving multiple actors pulling the strings of their Government and corporate lackeys. Energy companies lying about fracking, big tobacco lying about lung cancer, and the tea party pretending it's not shilling for the Koch brothers isn't a conspiracy, it's depressing business as usual.

/rant

edit: style/grammar niggles

You wouldn't be the Canadian neocon Johnathon Kay are you? I just saw this and your epitome of speech is quite similar. This touches on many things you did besides the financials. And many things I had never heard before. http://youtube.com/watch?v=frfZ_j2ov4w

Ha, no.

IMO we should quit with this whole 'shill' nonsense, it's just silly. While there may intact be shills here, I wont dispute, the term is now just a joke thrown about as if it even still has any meaning. Especially since the huge majority of people called shills are just people disagreeing, asking for sources, or simply trolling.

Quit mistaking 'shills' and 'trolls'

it's shilly.

I would give you the rest of my day's upvotes if I could.

Anyone who assumes there isnt misinformation being pushed by both governments and corperations is niave. Socail networking is an excellent way for strategic analysts to both monitor trends and shape them. They say as much in the job advertisments

Sure, but there is a lot of stupid shit around here, and calling everyone who points it out a "shill" reeks of severe paranoid mental illness. Nobody cares about most of these idiots enough to pay someone to point out they are in fact idiots.....

Who assumes there isn't misinformation being pushed? I didn't see anyone make that point.

Yeah, /r/conspiracy just doesn't seem like it'd be a good return on investment. If you want big bang for your buck paying shills, wouldn't you want to shape the opinions of people that matter? Not just a couple thousands idiots on a small subsection of a website on the internet?

This would be where I would post if paid to be a jack off, sucker of government cocks. It just seems more fun. This must be where their top mindwashers troll. You know because of seniority.

It's hard to tell the difference between trolls and shills sometimes, though. All shills are trolls, but not all trolls are shills. It's very rare that you get a shill that is 100% respectful all the time and never trolly.

I agree with that totally actually. I do however think feel as if the near constant drone of 'shill shill shill!' over... and over... and over... in so many threads every single day, kind of like that guy who has already called me a shill..

It literally means nothing anymore and it only serves to make us look like idiots at this point.

Yep. Been called a shill for not blaming Israel for everything myself.

You can judge a shill (some of them. The dumb ones) by checking their comment history and watch how they laser lock on one subject constantly.

Its not even about trolls. The problem is they are saying really stupid shit, and declaring everyone who disagrees a "shill" - its mentally ill...

Some of the worst offenders are probably shills/trolls in reality, as that makes us look bad.

Also, the shills that intentionally deflect (let's say... by always blaming Israel?) will always say that everyone that disagrees with them is a (n Israeli) shill.

Maybe it's the shills calling people shills to get us to turn on each other.

I have been saying agent or brigade of merry men? JIDF slave masters I only use in emergencies.

I think its not the words that matter in this case, it's more the fact that we are vastly over estimating the amount of 'shills' there are... when likely 90% of them are just trolls, or are just disagreeing.

I completely agree, it's gotten so bad that yesterday a troll was on automatic pilot or something and accused me of calling him a shill before I even had a chance to screen cap his username in r/conspiratard sub. Essentially subverting what it is I do here. Lulz I think he meant to post it somewhere else but he owned it. Haha

[deleted]

cool story bro

I'm a regular reader at /r/conspiracy, though I wouldn't describe myself as a conspiracy theorist.

I essentially disagree with a lot of what I read here. That said, I find it interesting and valuable to see what people are worrying about. After all, sometimes there really are conspiracies, and working as a (TV) journalist it's my job to unpick them and find out what's really going on. This is the kind of place where I might pick up leads.

My perspective on this 'paid shills' issue, as a relative outsider, is that what you're seeing aren't people sent here to suppress anything- but rather people who simply disagree, or have a general disdain for conspiracy theories in general.

/r/conspiracy is not a closed community, so it shouldn't surprise you when people with radically different ways of thinking post here. You already know that you're in the minority, so it shouldn't be a surprise when someone posts something at odds with the general community sentiment.

I think to jump to the conclusion that these people are 'paid shills' is pretty radical. You should welcome the opportunity to test theories and weigh up evidence against the views of those who disagree, without dismissing them out of hand because of an assumption that you make about their motives. Maybe outsiders could be of use to the community, it's hard to examine ideas with a narrow perspective, and there are a lot of like-minded people here.

They're probably just looking for a rise, so don't respond in anger- or by 'calling them out' (labelling them with no prima facie reason), engage them.

Think of it as an opportunity to reach an audience that would normally be outside of the echo-chamber of /r/conspiracy, don't anathematize all dissenting voices. Isn't the suppression of dissenting voices something we all abhor?

Hop on over to r/conspiratard, then go to r/nolibswatch they have archived some interesting facts that could change your mind maybe.

Big fan of r/conspiratard, but /r/nolibswatch is a new one to me. Thanks!

Also I'm not sure if you can search these usernames, but there was at one time jackboot IDF ultra Zionists that moderated for r/conspiritard. u/Nolibs and u/ghostofnolibs. Most likely the same user with sockpuppet. He was raging in a sub he created thinking no one could see that he was writing twisted degenerate songs about Rachel Corrie being ran over by a Zionist bulldozer. I believe one of them was about Rachel Corrie pancakes. They were able to convince their adjuncts it was a silly joke, but no it was an inside joke that is still whispered in r/conspiritard to this day in certain Hasbara circles. I would rather get waterboarded than be associated with scumbags like that.

Wrong. Downvote for being either unforgiveably ignorant or just another shill.

"Unforgivably ignorant". Educate me then.

If you are really a journalist then there is no excuse for your not having the same information that compels other redditors to post what has been reported on other reputable sites. So if you need me to tell you what you should know by virtue of your profession, then you are either an inept journalist or a paid shill and I'm not going to waste any more time on you.

I'm not here for links to (occasionally) reputable sites, I'm here to learn about the communities (conspiracy theorists and debunkers alike) and their own original theories. This is a reasonable place to do that, I can (and do) monitor news websites on my own. Self-posts and comments are what I'm here for.

I suggested it would be worth engaging with people whose views are different to /r/conspiracies instead of just labelling them. It's interesting that your response was essentially "Downvote. Shill."

I suppose you disagree.

I suggest you do more reading if you are indeed a journalist - alternative new sites, that is. The truth is not on our tv's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HBGary#Astroturfing

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All

more like, "someone disagrees with this conspiracy that makes no sense, so they must be a shill"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HBGary#Astroturfing

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All

i'm not saying that it's untrue, i'm saying that anyone that disagrees is automatically called a "shill", which is why conspiracy theorists are often made fun of.

This isn't really related to what OP is talking about.

I couldn't agree more with all of this. The other day I had a different perspective on a topic than someone else. Before even trying to explain their position and have a conversation they said "you're too far gone." Let me make something very clear- anyone who is in here has access to info that will change them should they be willing to follow the information wherever it leads them. Just being in here alone means you have a shot and are not too far gone. People need to not focus so much on trying to win a argument and stick to the purpose of being here which is to seek the truth and share ideas, insights, and information.

throwaway account

found one here:

http://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/16c0j4/135_lb_justin_bieber_sued_for_beating_up_his_ex/c7uoxpb

new user, first post brings up Jews when only Israel was mentioned. Then they play the antisemitic card in an attempt to slander the subreddit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HBGary#Astroturfing

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All

Asking for evidence isn't causing a disruption nor is asking for evidence. Furthermore it isn't a lie nor does it make someone a shill when they provide evidence that proves something incorrect.

For example - you can get lots of upvotes for asking for pictures of the Sandy Hook funerals but if you dare post any pictures you are attached.

The future belongs to those who can adapt and respond to changing information - it doesn't belong to those who know they are right and who refuse to allow differing information to be talked about.

I'm not asking for anyone to be narrow minded here, quite the opposite. I'm asking for people to be alert and keep good judgement as we discuss current events and possible explanations for the things we do not yet understand. Thanks for your comment

Thank you for responding in a polite fashion - such discourse has become rare around here - perhaps all is not lost.

Can you post any of the pictures from the Sandy Hook funerals? I legit want to see them, not a troll thing. Thanks!

https://www.google.ca/search?q=Sandy+Hook+funerals&sugexp=chrome,mod%3D0&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=0TbwUJi0N4rm2QXA2IHoDA&biw=1360&bih=643&sei=1DbwUNvlJM6A2QXp0YHACg

What would images of a funeral prove? Is their a conspiracy that those people weren't murdered?

This nonsense would be an exercise in futility if the government was completely transparent. I think openness was a platform Potus ran on. He kinda lied I think.

Who takes pictures at a funereal?

this guy is a shill

Absolutely agree that BYCNTM is a shill, and has a visible agenda of opposing any critics of government actions.

You again.

How about you say who / what I am a shill for and provide evidence of same? You will not do this but I like asking anyway as it shows how you make stuff up to fit your narrative. Now go wash your hands.

Confirmed shill.

One thing I love about this sub is how words like theory and confirmed have totally different meanings then in the read world. Here if you simply think something it is confirmed!

Its kinda funny reading this, not because of you, but this discussion is the the very reason I don't bother with any conspiracy sites.

Most of these people are fantasists they are playing the X-Files real life RPG, they don't care about truth they care about being "right". About being the cool guy that knows all the stuff, you know Kevin Smith in that shitty Die Hard 4 movie? THAT GUY! (It wouldn't be an issue if "that guy" wasn't fictional I guess)

That's why asking for things like logic & evidence makes you a shill, and even then, what would half of these gimps do if they actually did find something? We already all know the answer to that don't we!? Same as they've always done, NOTHING

Conspiracy sites nowadays either by accident or by design are basically Facebook for people with no friends! (in terms of worthwhile content at least)

switch tactics

why?

they are correct, this poster is a confirmed shill.

if not a shill, this poster is

1. only interested in debunking theory, not at all interested in discussion

2. a total asshole.

get out of here, dude, I have already called you out for being a troll, everyone knows you're a troll, no one actually likes you here, go hang out at /r/aww that's probably more your forte.

I appreciate his posts. He makes good points and provides a necessary counter argument.

nice try, him.

"What? two people disagree with me?! SOCKPUPPET SHILLS."

[deleted]

me too

Hello there sockpuppet! http://imgur.com/k0ngT

His pedophile name gives him such credibility.

First day user posting immediately in r/conspiratard, circlejerking a simpleton routine of sarcastically calling each other shills. All but the fact it's an obvious sockpuppet account was normal. A little shame goes a long way. Obesity prince would be my guess, lulz he has been off his game and getting made a bitch on the regular. I have red dogged him for days. Once a daily nuisance hasn't posted in of 36 hours or more.;)

First day user posting immediately in r/conspiratard, circlejerking a simpleton routine of sarcastically calling each other shills. All but the fact it's an obvious sockpuppet account was normal. A little shame goes a long way. Obesity prince would be my guess, lulz he has been off his game and getting made a bitch on the regular. I have red dogged him for days. Once a daily nuisance hasn't posted in of 36 hours or more.;)

What about asking for evidence? Is that a disruption?

(Joking)

[deleted]

I was being sarcastic because the original post said "Asking for evidence isn't causing a disruption nor is asking for evidence. "

also due to the philosophic nature of most conspiracy theory, there will never be real evidence.

conspiracy is more akin to thought experiments and philosophy than hard science, in my humble opinion.

I have read this same post written slightly different like 20 times today. Consequently one or two times it wasn't even you that wrote it. Heh!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HBGary#Astroturfing

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All

Maybe we need some standards for information value.

A verified, declassified document obtained by FOIA requests is obviously of much higher value as evidence than some Youtube video trying to discern the emotional content of a witness's secondhand account.

I realize not all evidence can be of this high quality. However, watching the community hoover up these speculative videos and easily manipulated images as if they were the secret Illuminati files revealed at last is getting depressing.

Get RES (/r/enhancement) and start tagging these guys!

Okay. Tagged as "Believes governments will pay people to argue with people who nobody takes seriously anyways." in fuchia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HBGary#Astroturfing

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All

[deleted]

Fucking shill.

You found me out. I'm actually a advanced AI.

RES is a tool of mass media oppression.

Thanks Obama!

Seriously, it makes Reddit a whole new world. When you see what you are pretty sure is a shill, copy and paste the 'best' part of their comment into their tag field. Color-code it a chosen color to denote what you did, then just sit back and do your Reddit thing. The shills will paint themselves into a corner very quickly by their behavior alone. You don't even need to interact with them directly, just observe their character. It sure makes the downvotes easier. :)

(Cue a pile of shills to come insult me now for this very good advice. Call it a practice round for those new to the tagging concept.)

Edit to add what I sing to myself and have for years. (NSFW) (I had to do some mike work this morning and this popped-out. No time for a wicked beat, but it has extra giggles.)

I'm a shill, and i approve this message.

ooo, Tag me! Tag me as "lowest paid shill on /r/conspiracy"

i have been lurking here awhile and at first i thought . hmmm they might have something here. then as time went on I started thinking about it and this is what i came up with. one important question I never see asked in this subreddit or with most conspiracy crowds is this, WHY? why do it this way when there are so many eaiser ways to do it? This post for instance. Why are there shills in abundance? Does this subreddit hold enough importance to discount? most people consider conspiracy nuts to be just that nuts. Why would they care enough to discredit you? In conclusion, im not discounting anything said in this post or any other, just ask yourself why before you jump on the bandwagon. ( I now go to be downvoted to oblivion.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HBGary#Astroturfing

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All

does this subreddit hold

Yes. After the majority of reddit figured out that r/politics is completely staged they came here.

There is a very clear push to make r/conspiracy more like GLP and less like OWS.

Man, if only I got paid for all the time I spend in here debating your guys' bullshit.

So you are admitting you are just a loser with no life, then?

I don't understand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HBGary#Astroturfing

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All

I am, yes. I'm an unemployed law school graduate who uses Reddit to make studying for the bar bearable, which means I need a lot of Reddit. I'll freely admit I have no life, as I don't have the money to have a life.

Did you read the links I posted?

Obviously there are going to be bored people like you, but the links show evidence of a more sinister form of disagreement.

Also, you replied to me somewhat politely, thanks, I was not expecting that.

I already knew about HBGary, I just highly doubt they'd be shilling here, and the accusation is already thrown around way more than the evidence merits.

Also, you replied to me somewhat politely, thanks, I was not expecting that.

Maybe you should strive to comment in such a way that you're not expecting vitriol in return...

Maybe you should strive to comment in such a way that you're not expecting vitriol in return...

I posted two links to a person who has "Team Debunk" as their flair. Excuse me for expecting vitriol from you.

So you are admitting you are just a loser with no life, then?

Are you so far removed from reality that you genuinely have no clue when you've just insulted someone? Talk about self-fulfilling prophecy...

Oh and the two links you've spammed all over this thread are a complete non sequitur to the people you're replying to.

No, I knew I was insulting that person.

And I disagree that the links are non sequiturs.

I knew I was insulting that person.

So you were attempting a self-fulfilling prophecy, then - good to know.

I disagree that the links are non sequiturs

People asked for specific evidence of paid shills on this subreddit and you replied with a link to wikipedia that links to unsourced blog posts. Those links are not evidence, much less proof of the claims being made in this thread, hence why its a non sequitur.

The problem with your 'evidence' is that if you accept it, it leaves you with no ability whatsoever to distinguish between a 'paid shill' and someone who's merely not convinced of your argument.

With such a mentality you're likely to conclude anyone and everyone who disagrees with you is a paid shill, which is plainly absurd.

So you were attempting a self-fulfilling prophecy, then - good to know.

I don't understand your use of self-fulfilling prophecy...I was perhaps being sarcastic, but I am not sure how prophecy fits here.

People asked for specific evidence

Please supply me with specific evidence that we landed on the moon, that the earth is round, that God is or is not real, or that the sun is nuclear and not just a hot ball of fire.

My point is that "asking for specific evidence", in the case of philosophical, thought-based conjecture and theory, is stupid.

The problem with your 'evidence' is that if you accept it, it leaves you with no ability whatsoever to distinguish between a 'paid shill' and someone who's merely not convinced of your argument.

Yes, that is in fact the exact problem.

With such a mentality you're likely to conclude anyone and everyone who disagrees with you is a paid shill, which is plainly absurd.

I don't conclude that, so don't assume I do.

For instance, I am fairly certain you are a real person. In fact, a lot of real people disagree with me, all the time. I can't even start to guess at who is "real" or not. Heck - maybe sometimes the people who are agreeing with me are the shills?!

The point is that we have evidence that the system is gamed, so it is not a stretch of the imagination to claim that the system is gamed.

A hilarious and cheap side effect of all this possible shilling, just as you pointed out, is that the community no longer trusts each other.

The problem is alot of rhetoric in here is code words (and sometime very overt) for hate and racial politics. I know I've become frustrated with the white supremacists and antisemitics in here. This causes frustration which leads to less than polite debunking of theories. This sub needs a good clean out and then arguments will become more polite. It's quickly becoming a safe haven for racists and neo-nazis.

Could you compile a list of these posts, or put up a post on how to spot the code words?

I just don't believe you. I see the racist stuff get posted, but not nearly to the extent that you seem to think.

Furthermore, there are 100,000 users here. Think about that.

Off the top of my head while on lunch: Zionists is the obvious choice for code word. I've seen calls for a Christian nation from Bumbling. Talks about immigrant influxes damaging countries that were otherwise very white.

Talks about immigrant influxes damaging countries that were otherwise very white.

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2007/08/05/the_downside_of_diversity/

Zionists

But zionism is a real thing, has real followers, and would have potential threats to the sovereignty of other nations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

Please don't call me a racist, as I am most definitely not.

Anything bumblingmumbling says should be disregarded, because BM is the most notorious anti-semite on the board, and has been posting his opinions for years - he is easy to spot, and one is hardly a large number.

I'm not accusing you of racism but stating that Zionism is often a code word for Jews. The idea that Jews should be self determinate and eschew other countries is hardly a threat to said countries.

I get that. Often when I see people talking about "jews" I ask them if they mean "zionism or israel" instead.

The point is that you can't just debase every use of the word "zionism" if it is indeed a real thing that is worth discussion.

I didn't mean to, I was simply pointing out as a highly visible example of a code word

Does your bling say "paid shill"? And you think that isn't starting of a friendly debate in here without being in some sense derogatory?

Nah, I find it funny

"I stand by what I said. What ever that was." Mitt Romney I like to laugh, not jokes but spontaneous humor, no I like jokes too.

roger

What I find more concerning is the fact that any dissenting opinion or attempt to debunk conspiracies are downvoted to shit and mocked. This should be an open forum for all opinions, but the biggest conspiracy I know of is the one here. If you disagree about a conspiracy everyone will harass you or downvote you. There should be no downvote button in this sub.

Given the number of Reddit readers and subscribers, I think to doubt that this is happening is astronomically naive. And it's not just r/conspiracy. Reddit is also a viral marketer's playground. In an environment where more than a few dozen people can't gather without someone seeing it as an opportunity to push ads in their faces, no one should be even remotely surprised at this. One can't even lay on the beach without someone hiring tow planes to fly banner ads all day.

If I was charged with turning/controlling/shaping public opinion on literally anything, I'd have a whole room full of people (with signed non-disclosure agreements) scouring social media with conjured personas manipulating the paid agenda whenever and wherever it happens to pop up. And that would be way less expensive than a MSM PR campaign.

You know this subreddit has been highjacked when you see an entire thread full of comments supporting Alex Jones with positive karma.

Reddit is a horrible place for good discussion. It's essentially a popularity contest that can be manipulated. As long as the upvote/downvote exists, it will be hard to stop this.

I dont think its shills I think the people on reddit are just that stupid. Reddit has changed and is attracting people who just troll and say things they would never say in real life to anyone.

I am confused. Are you saying the downvoters are stupid, or the OPs?

I guess neither. The overall quality has gone down.

Sounds like something Obama would say to keep us enlightened individuals of the internet quiet!

To be fair a lot of people have been called a shill when there is no proof of it, myself included

"Hello critical thinkers! I've noticed a disturbing number of paid shills watching and attacking /r/conspiracy lately."

Any evidence they are paid shills? I mean more than your word. I doubt it because quite frankly there is none.

"They will try and disrupt discussion and progress with personal attacks, irrelevant questions, mass downvotes and lies."

Really? I usually see this with Conspiracy believers downvoting those who disagree with their assessment. Even if you're right they are probably just trolls not "paid government shills" trying to spread disinformation.

"Big brother is getting desperate and will try anything to silence or confuse us. We will not let their lies and distractions slow the exposition of truth!"

As another poster said the "truth" varies between being suspicious of the integrity of bankers (Like I am) and believing Reptile men from Nibiru that eat babies are secretly ruling the planet.

There is no Illuminati conspiracy. There is no New World Order. There are only a bunch of incompetent bastards fucking up on a daily basis. How do I know this? Because humans are all fucking incompetent. For God sakes Richard Nixon the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES could not cover up a breakin at an office building, and you think people are ruling the world? Sorry but it's bullshit. I'd advise you to use your time with meaningful things (There's plenty of poverty in the U.S.) or even possible conspiricies (The LIBOR scandel is a serious issue). This New World Order Governments out to get me bullshit is distracting people from ACTUAL issues.

Sorry if you didn't like my post! You can downvote if you would like. There was an article recently where an ex-shill was explaining some tactics used by shills, and I felt like a lot of people may have been unaware that shills may be in our presence. As for what conspiracies we believe in, although I mentioned "big brother", discussions about conspiracies would be better suited to take place in other threads. Thanks!

A CLAIMED ex-shill, it's an important distinction. I can claim I'm George W Bush but that does not make it true. Also I see posts constantly accusing this person or that person of being a shill so people definitely appreciate it.

Lets take a good look at your opinionated ass shall we? Oh well?! What's this? 1st day redditor account! "Wags finger" already looks bad. Everyone of your posts have been on r/conspiracy ranting bullocks. By your comments it looks like you have quite an understanding of reddit. Sockpuppet accounts are not and should not get any credence in this sub. You have chutzpah god damn it! Tldr; first day redditor has sockpuppet account trolls thread on shills. I know I wagged my finger at you but your gigantic balls gets a tip of the hat.

Isn't the entire point of reddit anyone can post what they want?

Ok go tell all your buddies that pointing out in every single paragraph that this sub is nazi or anti Semitic. Simply because bumblingmubbling has a hard on for jooz is not allowed or off limits. Generalizing an entire sub because of one neonazi, would be hypocritical because your guys have a moderator that's a blood thirsty Zionist out to enslave or kill non jooz. Get back to me whenever. Good talk!

I'm honestly not quite sure what that rant was about, but OK.

Stick around a while and copy this post somewhere. Periodically go read it and it will eventually make sense. Well the previous post. Goddamnit you know what I mean...if you have questions and shit pm me and I will "try" to give an unbiased answer. Cheers!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HBGary#Astroturfing

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All

I'm glad Richard Nixon represents the whole human race...

This. Conspiracy folks would do well to remember that every government organisation is basically run like the Pawnee Parks and Recreation Department.

Correct.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HBGary#Astroturfing

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All

[deleted]

"Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate" "Frustra fit per plura quod potest fieri per pauciora" "Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem"

Occam's Razor "when you have two competing theories that make exactly the same predictions, the simpler one is the better."

Now in this case the "prediction" would be that the world has fucked up things happen in it every day. Now which theory sounds more plausible

New World Order A cabal of elite bankers and Zionists (AKA: Jews) have formed a centuries long group with the end goal being complete control of the world. Said people orchestrate false flag attacks, bombings, and economic crisis in order to further facilitate their goal of world domination. People really have no power in their government and everything is run by a very few individuals in secret societies. (Note this theory can involve: Lizard People, Nibiru, Chemtrails, UFO's, Roswell, Government Shills, Bio terrorism, Anti Semitism, and all manner of other things)

OR

My version of events The world is a chaotic place with lots of incompetent and stupid people. There is no group controlling world events due to the complex nature of our system.

Any evidence there's no conspiracy?

That's not how it works.

Evidence of a negative?

It's not a negative, I just used language to frame it as a negative. To frame it as a positive would take a lot more words. In more words I might ask for evidence for the fact that certain events or historical facts or whatever we see as the outward signs which some take to be the results of conspiracy are actually instead the result of incompetence, happenstance and self interest on the part of unconnected parties.

But, with that said, I should exasperatedly ask you, you don't think it's possible to produce evidence of a negative? What do you think billions of dollars were spent for in constructing the CERN installation for example? It was, among other things, so that the existence of the Higgs boson could be proved or disproved with some amount of certitude. A positive or negative result to so many standard deviations would prove to the satisfaction of most that it either did or didn't exist.

Why do you think you can't have evidence of a negative? You can have a logically consistent thesis which has certain observable physical characteristics and you can watch for them and if you see them, if you're clever enough in your question, you can prove to some degree of certainty that it exists and if you have good reason to expect those characteristics and you don't observe them you can be as certain that it doesn't exist.

The history of science is full of examples of evidence proving a negative, the aether, phlogiston, etc. That's not how it works? How does it work?

"Assertions that are made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence" - Christopher Hitchens

I'm honestly not sure if you're trolling or not but I can't prove a negative (No one can PROVE there isn't a fish hiding in the sun). But evidence and logical reasoning suggests that would be extremely unlikely. The burden of proof is on YOU to show me that there is an actual conspiracy.

I'm not going go down some epistemological rabbit warren here but we can't be sure that we can prove anything objectively but there are certain criteria and standards that we can agree on which constitute something approaching proof and we can look for it either way, whether we test for a positive or a negative. It's also a philosophical question as to what the status quo or null is which we hold as the default which must be disproved rather than the alternative which challenges it.

But you're right, for most of us, myself included, the null hypothesis in this and most cases is that nothing is going on, there is no conspiracy, and some tests would have to be constructed to challenge that status quo assumption to some degree of certainty in order to reject the null and then replace it with the alternative. The burden of proof is on those challenging the null, but the null isn't written in stone and which side occupies the null is at root a question of philosophy, a different school of thought or other culture etc. might pose the question the opposite way. To be clear however I agree, the null should be nothing is going on. But, sometimes the null is that something is going on and we have to prove that it isn't depending on the question.

It's often a good idea to keep this in mind and even when one side is firmly in the status quo and reframe it so that it's not; if you're position is strong it will only be made stronger, if it's mostly rightly but tenuously this might reveal some important detail to improve it, and if it's wrong then it's overturned. And of course it's possible to prove a negative, in so far as we define proof, it's actually no different than proving a positive. An assertion is made, that statement can be framed in a positive or negative way, it's tested, results observed and computed and the assertion is either supported or it isn't.

You must be new here. This has been happening since its inception.

Yes, but there has been a big increase in the frequency of the attacks recently. Good posts get down voted so they're never seen by most casual browsers of /r/conspiracy. (The Paul Craig Roberts blog post on the agenda driven news cycle, for instance http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2012/12/28/agenda-prevails-over-truth/).

Even posts in other sub-Reddits are being down voted if they even hint at a view that the government or authority figures would rather not see or respond to. (There was a post by a cop that accused a redditor of "overthinking" when he suggested that the role of the police was to serve as enforcers for the status quo or armed thugs for the rich and powerful for anyone that would complain about massive inequality and myths of opportunity for the poor and the middle class. Remember the retired Philidelphia Police Captain that was arrested at the New York OWS gathering -overthinking suggested by a low level cop as opposed to a thoughtful analysis by someone is a position to KNOW. http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/161545/retired-philadelphia-police-captain-ray-lewis-arrested-at-ows-calls-nypd-rationale-a-farce/

There is definitely a concerted effort being made to control the narrative of current events and government policy in this sub Reddit as well as on other sub-Reddits.

We're in a war with those that would have you forget real history and would instead force the corporate media's version of the truth on you. They are constantly rewriting history for their benefit.

There is definitely a down vote brigade at work that started really ramping up their efforts within the last month.

I have come to a similar conclusion. I now view reddit as a waste of my valuable time. Au revoir reddit.

Fantastic post!!!

Thanks!

Yes, they (those using Pentagon-built astroturfer software) have the capability of burying anything and everything into oblivion, and promoting the crappiest of the crap pile into the spotlight.

Pentagon-built astroturfer software

This is just an assumption on your part. /r/conspiracy has gained increasing numbers of subscribers in recent months, and given how divisive the conspiracy crowd is, it doesn't have to mean anything sinister.

For example, when a story which promotes theory A as the perfect explanation gets downvoted, it's likely by other conspiracy theorists who prefer theory B, not "shills".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HBGary#Astroturfing

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All

Here's an example of what I meant.

Taking the chemtrails claim as a central theory, there are people who believe that spraying vinegar somehow breaks up a chemtrail 30,000 feet over their heads. Are they chemtrail conspiracy theorists, or are they shills?

Others believe in "slyphs", or air elementals which somehow disrupt chemtrails. Are they chemtrail conspiracy theorists, or are they shills?

A yet third group, believe that they have a disease called Morgellons, spread by chemtrails, and that that is what chemtrails are used for.

Now imagine someone posts a chemtrail story which uses geoengineering as an explanation for the purpose of why they exist.

If a vinegar-sprayer, sylph-believer or Morgellons person sees the story, are they going to automatically agree with it, or could they consider it to be "disinfo", because it's not compatible with their own personal reasoning for chemtrails?

Just something to think about.

Of all the people I find myself regularly being challenged by, I like you the most.

I understand this. I feel like I've seen an increased frequency and this is my concern. Thanks.

You are 100% on the money.

It's not just Reddit.

Haha glad to hear I'm not crazy. Ahhhh conspirator jokes.

I don't hold to this sub very often, merely, I glance over it once in a while to see what people are thinking. But it's quite clear that you're not here to think, you're just here to rant mindlessly.

Now, please, in a rational way, explain to me what the fuck you're talking about.

We are here to think, but it ends up turning into stupid arguments and bullshit, and a big contributing factor to that are people who are paid to lurk on internet forums and spread misinformation.

edit: fixed a word

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HBGary#Astroturfing

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All

I understand this is r/conspiracy, but this post is sounding a bit conspiracy-fanatical. You have to watch out what you say, someone who's skeptical, someone who doesnt agree with you or a simple internet troll is MOST LIKELY not a "paid shill".

Don't get paranoid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HBGary#Astroturfing

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All

You keep posting that like it proves that someone not agreeing with you is proof of them being a shill.

All it proves is that there are people that come to internet forums to stir up shit in one way or another. It doesn't prove that every person who disagrees with a particular train of thought is a shill or government agent of some sort.

Fuck, I don't believe that the moon landing was fake, but that doesn't make me a shill. It just means I don't believe that particular train of thought.

paid shills? or those who just disagree? Not everyone has a hidden agenda

I agree with you.

However

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HBGary#Astroturfing

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All

Hello critical thinkers!

That's the funniest thing I've read all day.

That is because it was clearly not addressed to you.

Oh you are so going to get it when I tell my Illuminati paymasters how you tried insulting me. I hope they send Bigfoot after you to steal your tinfoil hat.

Bigfoot after you to steal your tinfoil hat.

See, although that would be a hoot to have bigfoot be real, or the illuminati, I just don't think they are.

However, you will accuse me of believing in such things because it makes it easier to debase my actual opinions and concerns, which are quite sane and quite based in reality.

No, I'll accuse you of such things because I think it's funny. There is some sane, reality based stuff on /r/conspiracy, but it's buried under nonsense. But, then again the nonsense stuff is much more fun anyway.

but it's buried under nonsense.

Agree!

nonsense stuff is more fun anyway.

Again, I agree.

But I try to ask polite questions instead of just attacking those I think are living in a reality different from mine. I guess I just want the same level of respect from everyone on this board.

Wishful thinking - probably.

I've noticed a disturbing number of paid shills

And you know this... how exactly..?

Just because someone doesn't agree with everything that gets posted here doesn't mean that they're "paid shills."

Same thing's going on in r/guns or any of the other pro-gun subs

Hello critical thinkers. I've noticed a disturbing number of comments accusing people the OP doesn't agree with of being paid shills. I urge you all to pile on to whatever comments the OP doesn't agree with, and to accuse them of being paid shills. Only this way will the forum be secure for the dissemination of everything the OP agrees with, and safe from people the OP doesn't agree with (ie, paid shills).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HBGary#Astroturfing

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All

I guess I'd find this more useful if you'd identify some of the shill posts.

Try /u/leftsans

http://www.reddit.com/user/haveyouconsideredthe

furthermore

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HBGary#Astroturfing

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All

Constant vigilance

If you've noticed a disturbing number of paid shills, please provide a list of the one's you've discovered so far so that we know who to investigate.

Can you please call out specific posts, people and/or questions?

Didn't we just have this same exact thread less than a week ago?

How do we know that you aren't a shill yourself, glassonglass?

You know, the same could be asked about anyone that posts here.

• Everything is fine.

• Go back to sleep.

Dear conspiracy people, you are fucking delusional. I find it both frightening and hilarious that you guys think you are a blip on the radar of anyone with the ability to create massive armies of paid internet shills(come the fuck on.)

Seriously. Can I get some of the drugs you motherfuckers are on?

Also no more reposts of the same adam lanza video. This subreddit used to offer interesting stories not brought to light by the mainstream. Now I feel like its mostly about 2 issues. Its coming back this week to becoming more diversified again.

http://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/1637tn/this_is_a_forum_for_free_thinking_not_hate_speech/

The other side of the coin is that there are literally a million, ahem, "sheeple" who come here with sincere belief in the system.

I hate that term because it's dismissive but my point still stands. The ones that haven't entered the alternative news questioning mindset come here to feel superior. Slaves to their own egos.

Yes there are disinformation agents. But some people are just skeptics who like to troll.

I see that a lot, and a lot of the times they get shot down and derided. The mature thing to do would be to educate them in an intelligent and thought out manner with links and sources.

Too many times a differing opinion will receive insults instead of discussion and it's discussion which will out the truth.

Just because a conspiracy is believed doesn't instantly make it fact. It's more likely that neither person is 100% correct.

True, we are already aware of trolls, I just want those unaware to understand there are professional trolls here for the sole purpose of impeding progress and honest discussion. Thanks for your comment

We should disallow downvotes in this sub and only allow upvotes

getting downvoted for suggesting a logical and workable solution!

I'd like to take the opportunity to piggy-back on this meta post to promote the use of /r/Vetting to discuss the details/evidence and otherwise for/against specific conspiracies.

I think the more we get into the vetting mindset the more we'd be taken seriously and the better 'pull' we'd have with other subreddits.

Ultimately I'd love to see posts in /r/worldnews like "yeah, this politician's linked with this controversy, check out r/conspiracies vetting post on it."

Or

"actually USA's foreign policy is very offensive, I saw a r/vetting post which showed all their drone kills."

Also instead of always discussing if 9-11 was an inside job or not in every post about 9-11 we could just link the r/Vetting thread on it.

Can you explain to me how drone kills are more offensive than "boots on the ground" kills?

I often wonder why when I post an alternative I get down voted to hell, when I'm only just curious.... I understand why there's a distrust for paid shills, and the well deserved cynicism, but it just makes me feel like less of you are here for for open minded, critical thinking, if it's critical of your idea. Try looking at people's past comments of awards on here to determine whether they are mindless drones or not.

Can you give a list of some of these paid shills? A little proof would be nice as well.

I don't like how you speak for me. Please use "I", not "We". I don't necessarily share your views.

I love how you think you're promoting critical thinking but presume that disagreeing has ulterior motives and that most people who do so vocally are paid shills.

Yeah... way too many users here proclaim others to be shills whenever someone disagrees with them. I would call that a more disturbing trend when, in reality, nobody gives a crap about this subreddit or would pay money to someone to "infiltrate" it.

I think this is kind of what most subs go through when they get larger. I know you'd like to think that what you all have to say is really important and shocking, but mostly it's not. I don't see why any government organization would bother with you. Frankly, all this stuff is old conspiracies with new suspects anyways.

Tl:dr no disrespect, but it doesn't seem like this is more than some kids having fun with you.

I became interested in who conspiracy people were after Alex Jones lost his mind on television.

Hello critical thinkers!

It's funny to me that you say this because since I started exploring this subreddit the most common theme I see is that you guys don't care about critical thinking. It seems like most people here hate the truth, just seriously hate the truth. I see so many claims of "undeniable proof" that are straight up obvious lies but they get upvoted for some reason.

I care about what is true or not, so when I am presented with something my line of reasoning goes like this.

• event happened
• what could have caused that?
• research
• come to conclusion using available evidence
• have the ability to change your position as new evidence becomes available

and here it looks like critical thinking goes like this

• event happened
• how is the government involved?
• twist evidence to fit your desire
• call everyone who points out the flaws in your reasoning a shill
• declare that everyone needs to wake up to the truth

You know, the government does do some awful shit and having people who are skeptical is a wonderful thing imo. But making up facts and creating nonsensical connections between events simply because you hate the government is doing far more harm than good.

The biggest issue is assuming we are a single block with a single politic.

There are crazy people here. There are also quite sane people here.

I care a great deal about critical thinking.

I also know enough about the way the media works, and the history of US influence over it, to know that Alex Jones is what is called "Controlled Opposition" and is meant to make all conspiracy people look crazy.

Rather than actually talk to me, any random person could just decide I am "just like Alex Jones". The reality is far from it, as I think Alex Jones is a fucking moronic charlatan.

Hugs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HBGary#Astroturfing

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All

So you read my post about how conspiracy people here ignore facts so they can make up their own reality and your first thought was to counter my argument by claiming Alex Jones is part of a conspiracy to make you look bad and that the government has agents online to try and make you think differently.

I think our definition of critical thinking is vastly different. When I say critical thinking, I mean taking a scientific method approach to reaching conclusions, drawing from facts and not wild speculation. I think you mean critical as being opposed to something, like being critical of the government.

I think our definition of critical thinking is vastly different. When I say critical thinking, I mean taking a scientific method approach to reaching conclusions, drawing from facts and not wild speculation. I think you mean critical as being opposed to something, like being critical of the government.

No.

You are talking to someone with a Masters in sociology - I understand very well what critical thinking is.

Alex Jones is most likely "controlled opposition."

This is not a crazy statement to make, given the political history of countries and movements seeking to control their opponents.

Given the way Alex Jones characterizes himself, and is characterized by the mainstream media, I believe he is meant to be an easily-dismissible charlatan.

Please notice that rather than engage with me about the concept of Controlled Opposition, you chose rather to insult my inteligence.

Have a nice day.

Oh well, I understand there will always be people as determined to lie for your fantasies as you, but there are probably a lot of people here who do care about the truth and what is real.

Maybe they'll care enough to look for the truth instead of just upvoting nonsense because they want to support others who also claim to be skeptics.

Instead of talking about a single point I mentioned, you have implied I am a liar and crazy.

Like Alex Jones did on Piers Morgan, you never made a point. Instead you linked the 2 links you've been spamming all over in an attempt to talk about something else.

You then claimed Alex Jones is part of a conspiracy to make you look bad, again offering no proof to back up your claim.

You then offered up that you have an MA in sociology to prove how smart you are while moving on to say I was using ad hominem attacks against you, then retreating by saying the conversation was over with a snide good day.

With your tremendous record of scholastic achievements you should be fully aware of good arguments and bad arguments.

Here's a bad argument. "I can prove the government blew up a daycare to scare people. Here's a wikipedia page proving that bombs do in fact exist, and here's a wikipedia entry showing that a political party in germany had once done something terrible. All proof that the government wants us dead."

an attempt to talk about something else.

I posted that link to every post I felt said "there is no evidence that anyone would ever pay someone else to post stuff online". Sorry if that jars your preserves.

You then claimed Alex Jones is part of a conspiracy to make you look bad, again offering no proof to back up your claim.

No, I claimed that Alex Jones is "controlled opposition" and exists to make other conspiracy theorists easy to debase. I do not believe Alex Jones is part of a conspiracy to discredit me individually.

offered up that you have an MA in sociology to prove how smart you are

No, I offered that as an example suggesting that I am aware of what "critical thought" is. Stating that I do not know what the world "critical" means in the context of "critical thought" is an attack, despite what you may be claiming now.

Here's a bad argument. "I can prove the government blew up a daycare to scare people. Here's a wikipedia page proving that bombs do in fact exist, and here's a wikipedia entry showing that a political party in germany had once done something terrible. All proof that the government wants us dead."

what does this have to do with anything at all?.

Please understand I am trying to take you seriously, and I am trying to engage with you through discourse. Please take this into account when replying.

I never said nobody has ever been paid to be a shill. You made that connection based on the same poor reasoning I've shown in my example.

You're not going to understand because you don't want to.

It's funny to me that you say this because since I started exploring this subreddit the most common theme I see is that you guys don't care about critical thinking. It seems like most people here hate the truth, just seriously hate the truth. I see so many claims of "undeniable proof" that are straight up obvious lies but they get upvoted for some reason.

You started by attacking the community.

You continued by attacking the community.

I engaged with you, fairly politely, and shared a couple of links that I think are handy primers for the concept of sock puppet forum sliding.

At some point you decided my links were meant to reveal the secrets of the universe to you, and you remain disappointed. Sorry, knowledge does not work that way.

You're not going to understand because you don't want to.

No, I really do want to understand.

Right now it is my theory that you don't have a point...do you have a point? It was my intention, initially, to suggest that you should not draw such large blanket statements about r/conspiracy, especially in the face of some sort of evidence. You proceeded to attack me with every post.

Yes, I am criticizing the community. As I stated I think skepticism is a wonderful trait. But it's not enough to be skeptical without seeking truth because then what you have is an agenda, you're not looking for truth you're looking for ways to convince others that the government is out to get them.

As I previously stated as well, the government does enough bad things that it doesn't need storied reptilian aliens coordinating false flag attacks with the illuminati to remove your guns from your home. Creating lies doesn't make people want to stand up against the government, it makes them roll their eyes at you.

Your links had nothing to do with the conversation, you have spammed them throughout this thread and decided you would do the same here. What were you trying to show? That someone did something once, therefor the government is doing it now and everyone who disagrees with you is a shill. I already stated the shill argument is a poor way to hide from facts.

Stop using the Alex Jones method. If you think something is amiss, provide evidence for that case. Not evidence that it happened in the past by someone else or that you just have a gut feeling.

storied reptilian aliens coordinating false flag attacks with the illuminati to remove your guns

Strawman motherfucker do you speak it?

I wonder why Alex Jones would be needed to make conspiracy types like yourself look stupid...

Alex Jones is justifiably paranoid. Sometimes the gubment really is out to get us. He fully expects to be silenced eventually, perhaps even permanently. But no one "controls" him.

So... you don't think that these might be actual people coming in here to give you guys a hard tome because you all appear to be really paranoid and gullible and will believe almost anything with very little to no actual evidence just so long as it's not "mainstream" and you don't suppose that these folks do it... I dunno... do it to get a rise out of you and to see you all go nuts screaming "shill omg! omg obama is gonna get us it's a shill! FREEDOM!"... so that never occurred to you?

Further... you don't suppose the uptick MIGHT be due to all of the sandy hook denialism in here because, you know, denying that a bunch of people were slaughtered always sits well with people... ya know... JUST SAYING.

And no, I'm not a shill. I come in here because you guys do post some interesting shit. I won't lie, it's a good read. Also I like to see what my dad is going to toss at me next because I'm pretty sure this is where he gets his national news from... I just don't see how you couldn't... SEE this. It's blazingly obvious.

could you explain to us how a usd come into creation?

I love the discussions here but I see a ton of people who I honestly believe are unstable and or just completely out of their minds in the whole conspiracy thing. For this reason I find /r/conspiratard hilarious because its usually those people just acting foolish that show up. Theres good content here, and theres bad content. Also people who seem down right racist or want really badly to be able to murder people.

To make sure you read every topic that comes up (to prevent reposts as well), just subscribe to the subreddit via the RSS feed.

A simple search would stop a lot of the repeat posts.

Evidence should be collected together rather than scattered about in different posts throughout the sub.

Maybe a solution would be to make /r/conspiracy a self-post sub only. That way people won't repeat postings for karma. Posts could be created for a particular subject and all comments and discussion sits there and it could be edited regularly to show the latest developments and consensus.

Sounds like a good idea to me!

Lets be alert and try to call out shills when possible, and I feel its important to read and give each comment and post fair judgement, ignoring downvote and upvote counts when necessary.

Emphasis mine.

Freud might have some thoughts on that sentence.

[deleted]

gosh isn't it interesting that those two have such similar names?

totally coincidental, i suppose.

I suggest a new, private sub, to be formed. One where the described abuses are not tolerated. You must be invited. I'd also suggest mods who are not mods here, save one. This gives more access to the submissions in both rooms, giving them the ability to to filter invitees without overloading the mod. A kind of safe haven for hypotheses and evidence to be formed and ordered, giving true theorists an opportunity to regroup and debate logically possible scenarios, without these ad-hominem attacks and ridiculous antics. Then bring the well thought out theory here, to conspiracy as an intelligent group.

A group, conspiritards, want to fight with uniform lies, going on irrational hostile tangents while twisting your words into something they are not. Respond with uniform truth, intelligent even keeled arguments, and logic, as a group.

Face it, this sub is no longer a safe place to think out conspiracy, but another battleground under heavy attack by a well organized enemy. If there is to be any fighting this conspiracy needs a core group, mostly independent of this place to keep the sub neutral, who are intelligent, to put out the message that we are not going to succumb to these attacks nor will we lie down and quit.

I believe this kind of group may already have a start here, though their methods at the current time don't seem to be working. Can't think of the sub name at the moment. If I had the time I'd start one.

the biggest problem is if we close the sub we lose the ability to have our discussions read by thousands of nonparticipants.

Consider the ability to read this whole thread without signing into reddit.

I wasn't suggesting closing this sub, but to make a new one for those of us who are more learned in conspiracy to formulate hypotheses without snide and ignorant responses belittling the process. Then to take the conclusion here, with group support and whatever evidence deemed appropriate by the group.

Maybe not as many people paid as we think. With anonymity comes all kinds of people willing to be assholes for all kinds of reasons. I myself have even done it, namely to the flat earth society but I digress. I'm sure theres plenty of people paid to be shills on the internet. Especially during election years. I just think most of the bullshit on this sub is just your everyday /b/ grade trollcraft. Theres probably far more people paid to blog, which is just a more proactive version of shillery.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HBGary#Astroturfing

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All

Interesting. are those the guys advertizing as reputation mitigators for webtraffic? That might classify as shillcraft as well.

As more evidence floats to the surface, more people become aware, the fight to suppress the information will only get worse. This should be an interesting year.

What is so bad about having ones theories challenged? Most conspiracy theorists know themselves we have far too little critical thought taking place these days. We need critical thinking and ideas challenged on all sides of any issue. From such dialog should eventually emerge the truth, whatever that is.

Isnt downvoting a form of censorship, though?

There are definitely paid shills on reddit- but they're probably not spending too much time in this sub.

I'm sure you have Megaphone people from /r/conspiratard messing around in here, though. I don't know that they're paid, but I'm sure there are a few who work with the JDL and other lobby orgs.

Why are you sure of this?

sure of what? that there are people from /r/conspiratard who mess with r/conspiracy? or sure that there are people from that subreddit who work with Megaphone?

Sure that there are folks for the jdl and similar orgs posting in this sub to incite...something? Sow confusion and dissent?

I don't like knitting. But I don't go to /r/knitting to denigrate knitting and how stupid it is to sit around making scarves all day. So why do believers in the MSM come here?

Just because i dont believe what you post doesnt mean i believe the msm either.

But I don't go to /r/knitting to denigrate knitting and how stupid it is to sit around making scarves all day.

I also post something other than "its stupid to sit around and think of conspiracies all day."

So i dont think that the msm produces real news, but that doesnt mean i agree with 95% of whats posted here.

The majority of my posts are "got any evidence for that? If not youre posting your opinion and conjecture and not fact"

If not youre posting your opinion and conjecture

What is wrong with posting opinion and conjecture?

The rest of what i posted.

I don't understand how the rest of what you wrote answers the question of "what is wrong with posting opinion and conjecture?"

What i wrote was "do you have evidence of that? If not you're posting your opinion and not fact"

This is a new trend? Seems same old shit to me.

While I understand the concern, I feel that the words shill and debunker are thrown around too easily. Someone doesn't agree? Shill! Someone tries to be logical and skeptical? Debunker!

Slippery slope.

This subreddit is awful now. Posts like this one do nothing more than feed the paranoia and reaffirm unproven beliefs.

Excellent advice! Do you mind if I borrow this to use in the Information War?

Go for it. I'm glad you liked what I had to say

The disturbing trend is that you're all bat shit crazy. WTF did I just read? LOL.

this topic is one of the reasons i abandoned most conspiracy theories a few years ago: if u call everyone who disagrees w/ u a "shill" or "troll", it means you aren't addressing the actual content of their arguments. questioning the motives of a poster is ad hominem & ultimately irrelevant if you're interested in truth. and bc of the way reddit works, its highly unlikely that a bunch of ministry of truth bureaucrats could even make a dent in vote totals for popular posts. when u write off those who disagree w/ u as being "in on the conspiracy", or at least agents of it, u set up a situation in which rational challenges to claims are suppressed, and u end up acting as thought police.

there's this thing called "gang-stalking", which is when a paranoid schizo hallucinates that they're being followed or stalked by groups of ppl. these schizos form communities online & talk about how the evil gov't is stalking them, and if u question anything about it, they all call you a "perp", which in their lingo means you're 1 of the stalkers & thus in on the conspiracy. it makes their communities incredibly biased & they just reinforce each others' delusions. that's what happens when u stifle debate, and disregarding someone's ideas just because they disagree w/ u is the opposite of what "critical thinkers" do. trust me, when u blame any and all dissent on the presence of "trolls and shills" it makes u look brainwashed.

While some of the posts on this sub are interesting and have some valid points or raise hard to answer questions. A lot of the posts are just so far out of the realm of possibility that it is hard not to giggle at them. I won't name call or call the person an idiot for believing it, I just think that the people who post such things are perhaps a little too easily led to believe. At the same time it doesn't make me a "shill" for not believing it, and it doesn't make me a "shill" for posting an opposing view. Just ignore the people who are clearly only here to make trouble.

edit: spelling.

They aren't paid. They are bored neckbeards who do the same thing on other subreddits. I'm not saying the shills don't exist, but every person who doesn't know how to argue a thought coherently isn't being paid by the government. More than likely, they are just /r/atheism teenagers trying to prove a point.

Could it be both?

I definitely agree with you about bored neckbeards, but sometimes it does not seem as 'lulzy' as it does 'intentionally directed'.

I don't mean they are doing it to fuck with us. They just found this sub and think they are smarter than everyone and just are generally being dicks. Like teenagers arguing on funnyjunk.

Again, I agree with you.

I just also give some credence to the other idea too.

I feel like this might be a bit paranoid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HBGary#Astroturfing

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All

[deleted]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HBGary#Astroturfing

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All

It would appear you've outed most of them instantly.

I have a few questions and comments:

1. What's the difference between a shill, a paid shill, and someone who just disagrees with you? How do you tell the difference? I assume there is a way to tell, because too often I've seen very clear statements of "X is a paid shill" as if you're absolutely certain.

2. I've seen way too many times members of /r/conspiracy treat others with "personal attacks, irrelevant questions, mass downvotes and lies". (TTTOTTT comes to mind off the top of my head)

3. How can you make claims like "Reddit is rigged" and hope to be taken seriously? Even if what many of you are claiming to be true is in fact true, I have to say you're really doing an awful job at conveying this truth. Because you do a poor job at explaining something (and understandably, others are left incredulous), why do you then resort to calling these same non-believers shills? Then ask for respect in return?

4. Too often, I see some rabid CTs who dismiss out of hand whatever facts don't suit based on an argument of "well, that publication can't be trusted because they did this 5 years, 7 months ago on page 13"; yet, will absolutely claim truth when their facts come from some alternate news sources, almost all of whom have been proven to be unreliable at some point or another.

I didn't visit to take sides here, but these are genuine issues that I have that usually prevent me from coming back and visiting. I know a lot of people who ARE interested in a lot of these theories (myself included), but the tone in this subreddit is too often hostile, which in turn, I think is doing you all a disservice if you're trying to spread the word.

Put alternatively, if there are indeed paid shills, get over it and find another way. It's getting tiring to see that become the default excuse for losing an argument. There always have been, and there always will be - MOVE ON!!!

Edit: Adding in that users like seriouslyyo, while they may have a legitimate point WILL get reported and eventually banned for just being an annoying twat. They will NOT get banned because of a secret army, government agency, or a group of israelis operating out of a basement. It's his own doing, and know that he's making the legitimate /r/conspiracy users looks like a bunch of idiots for allowing this shit to go on.

for just being an annoying twat

Sadly I don't think reddit works that way.

And I don't expect to get banned due to a secret army.

And I don't expect to get banned due to your cute little rant.

However, the links I post provide evidence that you are completely and utterly full of shit re: shills on this site.

PS: telling people to "just get over it you lost" is totally stupid.

Thanks for proving several of my points :D

Also the suspicion shills might be there is already inflicting considerable distress and paranoid. That itself makes "our enemies" win.

bureaucrats monitor online forums

Holy shit man you're the first one to ever point this out!

Let me ask you one thing as a test for legitmacy: what do you think happened at Sandy Hook?

I think the reddit rule of "no posting personal information" is needlessly restrictive in the battle for truth. With our evidence-gathering capabilities, we could gather info in known trolls and shills, and use that personal info to discourage them. Imagine contacting a troll's employer with a link to their on-the-job Internet activities. We did this sort of thing back in the Digg days with amazing success.

That's harassment which is illegal and wrong.

Doxxing, the information age equivalent of the Boston Tea Party.

If it helps deter truth-suppression, then it's necessary. I'm simply helping their employers know what their employees are doing on company time.

• You don't know if people you hate are using Reddit on company time.

• No one is suppressing truth. You just want to dox people you disagree with.

• Reddit is strongly against doxxing and harassment and you will be banned if you try to do such a thing.

I'll be honest. I've never seen them thicker ANYWHERE online then on Reddit. And I've been doing the Forum thing since the early 90s on BBS's.

Lately? I remember these shills showing up about 8 months ago.

Which shills specifically? Who pays them? How did you reach this conclusion?

I only know of one by name because there are so many, he is BetYouCanNotTellMe.

I dont need to know who pays the shills to know that they're shills.

I used common sense.

How do you mean common sense? What brought you to that conclusion?

I don't know what you want. Do you want me to explain to you what common sense is?

If someone is a shill they try to sell their product and show no or invalid data to back it up so people buy it.

You can easily find those shills all over r/conspiracy by simply using common sense and good judgement based on knowing what a shill is.

Is this difficult to understand or something?

EDIT: spelling

You going to respond, or ignore me?

I did respond.

how did you reach that conclusion? common sense tells me nothing. Who pays betyoucannottellme?

I'm not going to repeat myself.

How did you use common sense to reach that conclusion?

Go back and read what I said.

I have nothing else to say to you.

Thats what i figured. Its common sense, and if i disagree im probably a shill too.

Nope, I don't care if you disagree.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HBGary#Astroturfing

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All

I only know of one by name because there are so many, he is BetYouCanNotTellMe.

I dont need to know who pays the shills to know that they're shills.

I used common sense.

8 months. That's funny. Closer to 8 years.

There you have it.

[deleted]

I love it when people say TPTB are either scared or desperate. Of what/who exactly? Oh dear god, the conspiracy theorists are... Talking amongst themselves! And that's it! Sure every now and they will stage shit like "occupy" to bring out everyone to actually keep an eye on since they are the ones who will be willing to get up off their asses but that just amounts to preparations for a situation like a Chinese prison where they separate the leaders from the followers. With no strong willed leaders, the occupants are docile and more easily managed without fear of uprising.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HBGary#Astroturfing

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All

I have seen many others subreddits which doesn't have downvote button

Not if you click the box to not use the subreddit skin

And your evidence that there is even one "paid shill" here is what?

No. You're full of shit. "Paid shill," to you, simply means anyone who disagrees with what you say. This sub has to be a big booming echo chamber for any cockamamie belief you put out, otherwise it's all "paid shills".

This is why your theories never go anywhere. Being afraid to confront counterarguments, and instead calling names with no evidence, scuttles any tiny amount of credibility you might have.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HBGary#Astroturfing

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All

[deleted]

And for the third time: what proof do you have that I am, or that anyone on earth is a paid shill?

Hint: disagreeing with you is not proof.

[deleted]

Ahem, have I ever mentioned you being a "paid" shill?

You admit right here that "shill" equates with being paid to post, when you say that the term "shill" should "stay" on your little board, as distinct from troll.

The word "shill" implies payment. Check the etymology.

[deleted]

So namecalling substitutes for rational argument in your mind. And instead of rational argument, what you want is a circlejerk. Everyone agreeing no matter what.

[deleted]

No, you don't do your own research. You rely on YouTube clips, and blog posts, and other message boards. And that's exactly the problem: you exist in a world where any source that confirms your belief is "good," and any that doesn't is mocked.

Then, when people point that out, like me, instead of addressing those concerns and examining your biases, you call names, or worse, accuse the person of being a co-conspirator.

As for what "theories" I believe in, you'd need to be more specific.

[deleted]

You asked what "theories" I believe in. There are billions of "theories" in human history. Gravity. Evolution. Relativity. Atlantis. Bigfoot. Universal Gravitation. The Flat Earth. The Round Earth. Heliocentric solar system. I'm not going to list my belief in everything.

[deleted]

LOL... You asked a vague question, I asked for clarification, and you accuse me of deflecting?

1 rule of the tinfoil hat club: never ever ever ever admit you're wrong.

[deleted]

You have lost total and complete credibility to me.

I consider that an honor coming from people with no ability to critically examine their sources.

Suddenly my sources, which I have not divulged to you in any shape or form, are not valid? Based on what?

Please. You are seriously going to pretend you don't go to the same places as every other conspiracy theorist? Uh huh.

Also based on this logic, a law student who goes to the library to research a paper, will pick up a book. Now because they didn't write it themselves, it's not a valid source for research?

That's not what I said. But what you said makes a great point - unfortunately for you, it's against you.

A law student who goes to the library will pick up a book (or, more likely, use Westlaw or Lexis). There are primary sources and secondary sources in their library. They can read a law or case themselves, or they can read what someone else says about that law. Whether you're a law student or a practicing attorney like me, the primary sources are better, because they are the actual item being discussed. A statute is a primary source. A law professor discussing a statute is a secondary source.

When you use secondary (or tertiary, as most threads here) sources, you have to examine the source as well as the information. How did the source come to this information? What are the source's qualifications to make this evaluation? You wouldn't say a music teacher is a very good source on tax law, and you wouldn't say a YouTube video done by a teenager is a very good source of 9/11 research - unless, of course, you are a conspiracy theorist, and that teenager is confirming your already-held beliefs, hence "Loose Change" being taken seriously.

Now you appeal to theories like flat earth as another form of ridicule when I clearly mean the theories currently presented on the front page of this sub.

You don't "clearly" mean anything. If there's one thing I've learned from conspiracy theorists, it's that you're constantly looking for "gotchas," and so I don't assume things like that.

So, theories "on the front page of this sub," alright.

• Adam Lanza was a psycho, with a mom who was nearly as psycho (and in fact, a conspiracy theorist - "Doomsday prepper" - herself! Any of you have kids?). He went into a school and shot a bunch of innocent people. The "government" had no involvement.
• 9/11 was done by 19 Muslim terrorists, mostly Saudis. They flew planes into buildings, which caused damage and collapse. The government royally fucked up in their pre-attack actions, their attempts to stop the attack, and their disaster preparedness, but I do not ascribe to malice that which can be explained by incompetency.
• Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin landed on the moon in 1969.
• Approximately 5 million Jews, along with lots of other people, were systematically exterminated by the Nazis during their reign in Europe.
  
• The Jews have a lot of rich and powerful friends, but they don't really run "everything."
• Chemtrails do not exist. They are contrails.
• Aliens have never been to Earth, or, if they have, they sure as hell have no interest in secretly running our governments, because they are advanced enough to just destroy us in much more sophisticated ways.

What am I missing?

When you get tired of getting verbally bitch slapped just tell me. This is fun.

If you seriously think that is what is occurring here, you are delusional.

[deleted]

LOL... Didn't you say "goodbye" two posts ago?

What do you mean my purpose here isn't to contribute? My purpose here is to contribute a dose of reality into the generally ridiculous conversations that go on.

Now please specify how you reached those conclusions on those bullet points, oh wise one.

In many of those cases, as with most bogus conspiracy theories, basic logical reasoning is enough to get a person most of the way to the right answer. Tools like Occam's Razor, the understanding of logical fallacies, and psychology of secrets/secret organizations are things that any college graduate should be capable of applying to arrive at the correct conclusion.

In many cases, it is enough to say that (1) we know the event happened, and (2) none of the various government conspiracy theories could have possibly happened. By basic principles of paradigm shifting, we end up with the generally accepted account. However, people in this sub are incapable of doing so at one step or another, and as such wind up in la la land.

edit: Be snappy. I don't have all day. If I don't reply to the next pile of horseshit you present is because I've moved on to more productive things, like watching cartoons.

Right. Well, I respond in time, but in fairness, I have a busy law practice, two kids, an adjunct professor position at my alma mater, a scout pack, a pregnant wife, a classic car, an apartment rental business, a church committee, a brewing hobby, a sailing hobby, a political organization, and a Netflix account. Sorry if this cuts into your cartoon time.

A landlord and a lawyer? A "political organization" Access to children? You're one shady character.

LOL... Care to explain why any of that makes me shady? The political organizations are both my local LP and a local Village political group (our municipality doesn't have major party involvement). And generally, people who are parents have "access to children."

You take absurd paranoia to some kind of perverted art form.

I have noticed an intense amount of BULLSHIT anti Israeli propaganda too on r/conspiracy. Save that for r/antisemite please.

your post is too anti-gentile. Please save your racist thoughts for r/ihategoyim

Poe's law?

is r/ihategoyim even a real subreddit? If not, then I think you can consider this a parody. :)

haha FUCK GENTILES!

wait... I guess I'm a gentile too so... well fuck it. FUCK ME!

See, if you have something against blatant antisemitism, for example, you would make a case against it. In OP's world that's proof beyond a doubt that you're a paid shill. Thanks for disagreeing!

I post in various Russian news website too and almost EVERYONE there claims I am a paid Israeli Mossad Dis-Info. agent. It apparently happens that folks are paid to post online to counter or promote ideas but how effective could that be even? I can see a very weak minded person be influenced but are there THAT MANY out there to make a difference? I would like the job though, sit and do what I do regardless and get paid??? Dream job.

Someone has posted this exact same thing every week for as long as this sub-reddit has existed.

We are the future

You are just some dude reading an online forum stop being so narcissistic.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to sound egotistical. I meant convey the idea that sound minded people who have the ability to see through lies and find the truth have the possibility of changing the world for the better. It was just meant to be a motivational phrase, I feel like there has been a lot of negativity floating around lately.

haveyouconsideredthe is this subs main troll.

install RES and block him.

also ask the mods to ban him, although that will get you nowhere.

Note that haveyouconsideedthe is a shill/troll too. He's applying one of his methods to you to deflect your points.

Honestly what makes you believe you can do that any better than anyone else?

I never said I could. Like I said, I wasn't trying to be egotistical. Thanks!

redditor for six months

as long as this sub-reddit has existed

Oh die in a fire already.

redditor for 23 days

Sorry does account age indicate how long someone has been around here?

Where's yrugay when you need em

Moral of the story for the moment: Sandy Hook is not a conspiracy.

We should discuss this in other threads, this thread was made to discuss shills and shills only. Thanks!

No you don't get it. You have to understand that shills take advantage of events such as this. They spread relevant disinformation and encourage others down the never ending rabbit hole.

I understand very well how shills operate ;) thanks

Then you should understand that my original comment was relevant. Thanks.

hey guys im a paid shill and im here to de rail this mother fuckin retarded op fagot thread edit: 9/11 was all arbs the government had shit to do with it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HBGary#Astroturfing

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All

What is even the context of your comment?

So how do you know they are paid? Do you "know" this in the same way people "know" things about Jesus?

Because only a shill would waste their time asking the question that you just posed.

So how does that prove that they are being paid?

shill

paid to troll

troll

freelance.

So, if they are trolls, you are correct. If we accept from the start the word "shill", it is implied they are being paid. That is the difference between the two.

Pro shills are the ones who have been around for many years and who seem to have no day job, spending ALL their time online opposing inquiry. You have to ask why someone would spend huge amounts of time online posting only on topics related to inquiry about or against the government. Who can afford to do that for years on end?

Trolls can spend bursts of time but don't always spend all their time daily combating criticism of or inquiry into government actions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HBGary#Astroturfing

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All

We know this because there is long existing real evidence of it.

Stop being such a jerk, especially when you could have just googled these links up yourself.

I guess some people just want to watch the world burn, but anyone who values truth and is here for the truth will not impede progress of finding and declaring the truth.

Amen, I always say there are gov trolls here, when we call them out ppl say we're crazy. I clicked the comments on the sandy hook father actor post and the top comment was about how people don't understand grief and it had 200+ upvotes. Looking back now I realized there are parasites among us.

Or... There are a lot of people that understand that a five second clip "Omg, he's smiling! He must be an actor!" does not a conspiracy make.

Correct. But some people are dumb

Correct you are.

I also met several parents who saw that video and do not partake in alternative history or conspiracy related topics and though it was very strange that the patent of a dead child could even be on the television after a tragedy like that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HBGary#Astroturfing

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All

You're ill, get some help.

every time they lie, people die

I've noticed a disturbing number of paid shills watching and attacking /r/conspiracy lately.

[citation needed] I'm all for critical thinking, BUT you need to back up statements with fact and not just FUD.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HBGary#Astroturfing

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All

I looked over both and I don't see anything related to reddit or /conspiracy.

The articles are meant to introduce you to the evidence that the US Government uses software to manipulate social media.

Go ahead now and tell me that reddit is not a big enough website for the US Government to notice.

Big enough for them to notice? Most definitely.

But does that mean that they care about this place, specifically this subreddit? Not at all. Compare the number of subs here to /r/politics or /r/worldnews. Why would they be here rather than there?

It is possible that they're not paid shills, but simply sheep that don't like their worldview challenged.

Never attribute to malice what you can attribute to incompetence.

Or both?

true, though I have a hard time believing people would get paid for this. I suppose since they print all the money they need, the money factor isn't an issue

The right way to handle a shill is to simply recognize the shill's use of worn out talking points and dismiss them for the worn out talking points that they are, rather than to attack the shill for being a shill.

Oh jesus, half the people in this subreddit are fucking retards who post tabloid bullshit. They are also mentally ill declaring everyone a "shill" for pointing out they are complete jackasses. Look at yourselves first. Stop saying stupid shit if you dont want to be called out on it. You are all so fucking sloppy on the details its pathetic.....

If conspiracy theory upsets and offends you so much perhaps for the sake of YOUR mental health you might consider the comics in Reddit.

what the fuck are you talking about? if you dont realize most of this subreeddit are simplistic mentally ill losers obsessed with tabloid bullshit, then maybe.......

lol

I've noticed a lot of dicks in your mouth recentley!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HBGary#Astroturfing

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All

You again.

How about you say who / what I am a shill for and provide evidence of same? You will not do this but I like asking anyway as it shows how you make stuff up to fit your narrative. Now go wash your hands.

Thank you for responding in a polite fashion - such discourse has become rare around here - perhaps all is not lost.

Correct. But some people are dumb

Correct you are.

They are all blue to me but I'm in night mode.

48, according to Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite Reddit Enhancement Suite

Discussion is healthy.

It's a bot

I also met several parents who saw that video and do not partake in alternative history or conspiracy related topics and though it was very strange that the patent of a dead child could even be on the television after a tragedy like that.

yrugay is, I believe, a bot that posts links related to what we are talking about.

usually everyone downvotes and attacks yrugay, which is unfortunate. The majority of the links in this one are on-topic and should be read by everyone who frequents this subreddit.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=Sandy+Hook+funerals&sugexp=chrome,mod%3D0&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=0TbwUJi0N4rm2QXA2IHoDA&biw=1360&bih=643&sei=1DbwUNvlJM6A2QXp0YHACg

Who takes pictures at a funereal?

That is because it was clearly not addressed to you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HBGary#Astroturfing

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HBGary#Astroturfing

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All

Anyone can call out possible trolls at /r/conspiratroll

It's also a nice way to keep the "who's a troll" debate off of /r/conspiracy .

What would images of a funeral prove? Is their a conspiracy that those people weren't murdered?

So at best the government "controlling" the conversations is to make comments on threads? That's hardly controlling anything.

It's relevent in the sense that there is a massive difference between what someone wants and what happens. You make the claim that the government is controlling the conversation, yet here we all are, talking freely. All day, every day.

talking freely

You seem to be completely disregarding about 50% of this thread.

Absolutely agree that BYCNTM is a shill, and has a visible agenda of opposing any critics of government actions.

foreign country here, thx :p

it's not either or. it's both. you think they only monitor and 'correct' opinions only politely? Have you seen the type of people they get to do this stuff? Nuanced. LMAO.

Read the link on the sidebar. there are all sorts of tactics used by these scum.

It's funny to me that you say this because since I started exploring this subreddit the most common theme I see is that you guys don't care about critical thinking. It seems like most people here hate the truth, just seriously hate the truth. I see so many claims of "undeniable proof" that are straight up obvious lies but they get upvoted for some reason.

You started by attacking the community.

You continued by attacking the community.

I engaged with you, fairly politely, and shared a couple of links that I think are handy primers for the concept of sock puppet forum sliding.

At some point you decided my links were meant to reveal the secrets of the universe to you, and you remain disappointed. Sorry, knowledge does not work that way.

You're not going to understand because you don't want to.

No, I really do want to understand.

Right now it is my theory that you don't have a point...do you have a point? It was my intention, initially, to suggest that you should not draw such large blanket statements about r/conspiracy, especially in the face of some sort of evidence. You proceeded to attack me with every post.

Does your bling say "paid shill"? And you think that isn't starting of a friendly debate in here without being in some sense derogatory?

I think if you believe that stuff it is some form of mental illness, even a little bit. But hey, maybe I'm closed minded.

Big fan of r/conspiratard, but /r/nolibswatch is a new one to me. Thanks!

This is a forum for discussion. We discuss. The duty of maintaining a quality discussion is that of everyone in the discussion. It's about forming your own opinions and changing that of others. As long as this website doesn't start focusing on lectures, it is sort of our job to police the information being conveyed.

If you see BS, the don't let people get away with it! That's what it takes to build a healthy legitimate dialogue.

You can call it whatever you want, it's a free country [allegedly].

I only know of one by name because there are so many, he is BetYouCanNotTellMe.

I dont need to know who pays the shills to know that they're shills.

I used common sense.

I've already explained that the gov would prioritize because they have limited numbers and they cant go with outright censorship because that would be too obvious, besides that Ive posted a shit tonne of links that show that governments actually do employ people to monitor and "weigh in" on the net that you conveniently ignore, so yeah, Im not the one in denial here.

If you are really a journalist then there is no excuse for your not having the same information that compels other redditors to post what has been reported on other reputable sites. So if you need me to tell you what you should know by virtue of your profession, then you are either an inept journalist or a paid shill and I'm not going to waste any more time on you.

So what, now that the thread is about to be archived you've lost interest in this? Seems legit.

I only know of one by name because there are so many, he is BetYouCanNotTellMe.

I dont need to know who pays the shills to know that they're shills.

I used common sense.

First thread I've read on here, and the very existence of that sub shows how threatened some people feel by information they don't like.

Keep in mind, there's a whole sub full of people who have nothing better to do than try to make people believe in radical misinformation. That is why /r/conspiratard exists.