Malaysia declared that Bush and Cheney were war criminals. Most arab nations think it was a false flag. Also it wasn't the US Government. It was various people high up in the US government, working with the Israeli Mossad.

Source: Subreddit flair

Also it wasn't the US Government. It was various people high up in the US government

Wut.

I don't think anyone was insinuating everyone in the US government was in on it, but I can guarantee parties in the US are more to blame for it than any Iraelis.

http://i.imgur.com/DEQwJCw.jpg

I'm assuming that's 'shopped haha. Enlighten me though, I don't recognise that guy. Looks Saudi?

It is probably the single most talked about, written about, and thoroughly investigated event in world history. Certainly in the last 50 years. I'm pretty sure nobody has forgotten about it.

It's unclear what exactly you mean that "the US committed [it]." Clearly you believe it was a government conspiracy of some sort and to some degree, but since there are innumerable variations of that conspiracy theory -- variations that are often at odds with each other, with themselves, with basic logic, and sometimes with the laws of nature -- it's impossible to know which version of the conspiracy you subscribe to.

The one that conflicts with the laws of nature...that would be the official report, since jet fuel cannot melt steel (only soften it), and yet we saw molten metal pouring from the towers. That and the freefall demolitions into their own footprint that looks like every classic demolition ever seen and nothing like any accidental skyscraper collapse that we've ever seen.

Can we please stop using this like it's a powerful argument? In my experience, talking about how the towers fell is not an effective way to get people to reconsider the official narrative. Instead of a bunch of non-engineers making wild claims about molten steel and temperatures, why don't we put out some actual facts regarding these events.

Dick Cheney changed the hijack response protocol so that planes could not be intercepted without his permission. He conducted war games on 9/11 that introduced false radar blips, muddling everything. We already had a draft of the Patriot Act before 9/11. We immediately went to war with a country that wasn't behind the attacks. We had Bin Laden in a hospital in Dubai months before the attacks and didn't get him. We had detailed, documented warnings from several counties in the months leading to the attacks, and yet Cheney sent several of our response jets on training missions overseas. Several people were placing bets against the stocks of the airlines involved with 9/11 in the days leading up to the attack.

In summary, there are dozens of documented sources that provide much clearer evidence of a conspiracy than this tired old talking point about steel's melting temperature. If you want sources, read Michael Ruppert's Rubicon, or check out his YouTube videos.

Edit: I didn't realize there was such a lively discussion about WTC-7 below me. I'm very interested in this as well, but again, non of you are providing specific sources, and you won't have good luck convincing people. There are much more important, documented aspects of this conspiracy that don't hinge on how the buildings actually fell. Yes, I believe we took them down, but you'll sound far less crazy to an outsider if you don't focus on only that.

I think talking about the appointment and resignation of Henry Kissinger as the chairman of the 9/11 Commission is also an important point. He and Max Cleland are the only commissioners to resign, and both for very different yet important reasons!

Here's a paper detailing a scientific analysis of WTC dust which showed traces of an advanced explosive called nanothermite. Also, if you want to hear from people familiar with physics and such, check out the group Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth. They have a good amount of information and have presentations on youtube and such, demonstrating why the buildings should not have fallen the way they did.

I do not wish to be rude, but if you do not consider the molten metals to be one of the most damning and revealing pieces of evidence, then you do not understand how molten metals work. Completely forgivable. Most people have no use for that knowledge. But in this case it is of utmost importance.

The scientific laws of thermodynamics detailing blackbody radiation have beed thoroughly explained over and over again, and are among the most fundamental and consistently proved conclusions of science. (If the thermodynamics of blackbody radiation is wrong, then very nearly all of science is wrong as well.) And while I may not be an engineer, I am a physicist, so I can make claims to the veracity of those conclusions, although plenty of other imminently qualified physicists and metalurgists have already done so.

As Sheldon would say:

"Engineering. Where the noble semi-skilled laborers execute the vision of those who think and dream. Hello, oompa-loompas of science."

But jokes aside, the simple, provable science regarding the molten metal argument goes like this: All molten metals exceeding several nanometers in thickness are considered "blackbodies" (matter that absorbs all incoming electromagnetic radiation without reflecting it). And the temperature of all blackbodies can be measured simply by looking at their color (once they reach a critical minimum temperature and start radiating photons), no matter what type of atoms comprise them. So the pictures of the molten metal flowing out of the towers is completely sufficient for gauging their temperature, and cannot be dismissed as some type of metal with a lower melting point (like the aluminum comprising the planes) because, again, the color of blackbody radiation is independent of atomic composition and only dependent on temperature. And the temperatures of the molten streams in those pictures far excedes the maximum temperature attainable by jet fuel.

You could easily reference a chart on blackbody raditation temperatures-by-color and compare them to the photos to determine for yourself the temperatures of those streams. But I agree that it is useless trying to convince people without showing them evidence, so I have included links to some pictures/videos of the 9/11 molten metal and a blackbody color chart. I hope you will be curious enough to check it out. I'd be interrested to hear what temperature you think they are, based on the chart.

This does not negate any of the points that you bring up. They are salient points as well, because they indicate who may have been involved, but the molten metal helps indicates both who and how. The obvious temperatures of the metal, and the abundant presence of lab-grade, explosive-quality nano-thermite in the debris, allows us to draw some very significant conclusions. First, jet fuel could not have been responsible for the molten metal - we can tell that just by looking at the metal and a blackbody temperature chart. Second, the nano-thermite was lab-grade (highly expensive and technical), so it came from someone with access to weapons-grade explosives (this can be determined by observing the size of the nano-particles, and the specific ratio of reduction/oxidation agents. The smaller and more consistenly sized the particles are, and the more specific the ratio of reagents, the more technical expertise and expensive equipment is required to synthesize it). And third, because there was a HUGE amount of thermite in the debris, the buildings had to have been thoroughly riddled with it (if it were a single large cache instead of smaller deposits throughout the buildings we would have seen an enormous explosion), which means only someone with sweeping access to the WTC buildings and a whole lot of weapons-grade thermite could have put it there. And there are very few people who meet those criterion.

So, without intending to sound patronizing, now do you see why the molten metal (and thermite) argument is so potent? It narrows the list of suspects more than perhaps any other evidence, and it provides the most testable conclusions.

1. Blackbody temperature-color chart: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Blackbody-colours-vertical.svg

2. Alternative blackbody chart: http://www.processassociates.com/process/heat/metcolor.htm

3. Molten metal pic 1: http://imgur.com/dBS3fOD

4. Molten metal pic 2: http://imgur.com/ppNmpci

5. Molten metal VIDEO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmuzyWC60eE

6. The maximum burning temperature of jet fuel in open air is 315 degrees Celcius (588 K).

I have never seen such a thoughtful, articulate argument on this matter before, thank you. I would certainly agree, based on the charts and photos, that the temperature of those metals is well in excess of 315C. Your comment also motivated me to investigate the sources claiming nanothermite was used, and I would agree with you this is a powerful and important argument. I suppose I got fed up hearing some poorly thought out ideas from others and just moved on to different elements of this conspiracy, but now I can appreciate how damning this evidence is, thank you

I don't quite know what to do with someone changing their mind in light of one of my arguments. (blink, blink). I don't think that has ever happened before, lol. Thank YOU, sir!

This. If you want a real investigation into 9/11, read Crossing the Rubicon.

Tower collapse is interesting, but there is very little that is concrete and irrefutable. I believe without a shadow of a doubt those buildings were demolished, but that's not the best place to look if you want to prove anything beyond reasonable doubt.

what does luck have to do with intelligence, people either get basic science or they do not, the ones who are convinced passed science classes

jet fuel cannot melt steal (only soften it), and yet we saw molten metal pouring from the towers

No one ever claimed it could, and no, we did not see any molten steel.

That and the freefall demolitions into their own footprint

No, we did not see a straight free fall demolition, and no, it did not fall into its own footprint by any reasonable definition of "footprint".

Did you even see the collapse of WTC 7, which is explained away to be caused by a few fires on a couple of floors? Guess not, because that was clearly a controlled demolition, signalled by the characteristic 'kink' in the middle of the structure which allows it to fall in on itself.

And there was molten steel galore at the WTC towers, burning so hot that it would stay molten long after the collapse.

Wake up, man.

It's a shill don't waste your time.

Yeah got that after the second rebound comment. But I was killing some time at work so no worries.

[deleted]

Lol, I do believe that I have reasoning capabilities. I'd like you to point out where you think I've shown that I don't.

And yes, I do believe that the consensus of experts is the most likely accurate position, especially with an intensely scrutinized event like the twin towers attacks were.

[deleted]

Where, specifically, did I convince you that I am an idiot? I believe all my points were logically sound and properly sourced.

Did you even see the collapse of WTC 7, which is explained away to be caused by a few fires on a couple of floors?

It was not merely "explained away", it was carefully analyzed by a panel of experts.

And there was molten steel galore at the WTC towers, burning so hot that it would stay molten long after the collapse.

No, no there wasn't.

Wake up, man.

I got up a few hours ago, but thanks for checking!

Here ya go since you insist on having it rubbed in your face.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmuzyWC60eE

Well, first of all there's no need to be so hostile.

Secondly, according to the panel of experts assembled by NIST, the debris that you are claiming is molten steel was determined to be aluminum from the plane.

Source and evidence found here (question 21)

So you would believe something the gov't tells you? This is the same group behind. The USS Maine, going along with the Balfour Declaration and getting 140k US men killed in WW1, the same group who intercepted over a 1000 japanese coded messages and let the Pearl Harbor incident happen so we could get into WW2 and we lost 470k men in that one, then lets add the Gulf of Tonkin lie that got 58,500 men killed in NAM. Lets add the tuskegee experiment, and then the radioactive material dispersed on St Louis, The Iran Contra Affair, CIA involvement in bringing cocaine into the US. This is also the same gov't that went after Saddam Hussein for WMD when in November of 2000, Time magazine cover story ,he says he will not accept US Cash for oil anymore and Gaddaffi did the same in 2011. Well if you believe the gov't? Fuck you, just fuck you. You deserve whatever happens to you in the long run. And for the record NIST did not release their computer model numbers which showed why building 7 , a class one constructed building came down like a demo which had never happened before and never happened since.

Lol, so instead of addressing the evidence, you just spout off random events. That's typical conspiracy copout tactic.

And no, it's not just according to NIST, and their panel of experts, that the substance featured in the linked video. It's also according to analyses from the American Society of Civil Engineers and the Structural Engineers Association of New York, both of which consist of experts in the field.

And you're still being quite hostile. Why is that? I've shown you nothing but respect.

Sorry, Idiots bring out the worst in me. Cop-out? It's your resistance to facts that is a cop-out.

No, I am not resistant to facts. In fact, if anything, you've demonstrated that you are. You are unwilling to accept the expert opinion of the experts assembled by NIST which determined the molten metal found in your linked video was indeed aluminum.

Instead of coming back with your own evidence and expert opinions, you went on some long, irrelevant Alex Jones rant. Well, I definitely would call that a copout, and I think any reasonable person would too.

Wrong color, obviously you have no idea what molten aluminum is

Here is a video of your idiot from NIST trying like hell but unsuccessful in making molten aluminum glow yellow orange

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQdkyaO56OY

And I already pointed out that it has an orange color because it is burning organic materials like papers, desks, carpets etc.

And obviously you didn't watch or comprehend what I just showed you.

Although I appreciate your opinion, it is clear that you still believe the things which are told yo you as the 'truth' by the media. Don't you think it is at least suspicious that the collapse of WTC 7 is not even mentioned, never mind explained, in the official 9/11 commission report?

it is clear that you still believe the things which are told yo you as the 'truth' by the media.

That is certainly not the case. For example, I hate the current media meme of "deficits bad, must cut!", when all evidence is against that position.

Don't you think it is at least suspicious that the collapse of WTC 7 is not even mentioned, never mind explained, in the official 9/11 commission report?

...no? A quick look at the table of contents for the report show that it is much more about the perpetrators, and policies we can implement to mitigate risks of terrorist attacks. I'm not sure how Building 7 would fit into a report like that.

Haha so you think a report about 9/11 should not at least include all the major events that happened on 9/11, like oh shall we say, an unexplained collapse of a huge office building that was not hit by planes? In a report of 400+ pages there must be room for at least a chapter on WTC7.

Oh and these policies you are talking about robbed the US citizens of most of there constitutional freedom and rights. Yeah, well that is indeed more important than an actual report of the occurrences on 9/11.

But by now it is clear to me that indeed I am wasting my time pointing these things out, because you are too indoctrinated with current dogma to even begin asking critical questions that the media won't answer. Also, this discussion will not gain me any comment karma as your original comment was downvoted so much that the replies are not visible as well. I wish you a good day.

Haha so you think a report about 9/11 should not at least include all the major events that happened on 9/11, like oh shall we say, an unexplained collapse of a huge office building that was not hit by planes? In a report of 400+ pages there must be room for at least a chapter on WTC7.

Well, first off, it's not an unexplained collapse. It's an explained collapse.

Secondly, several other buildings fell that day. A list can be found on Wikipedia. Why are you not complaining that those buildings were left off as well?

Honestly, I really don't think you've proven your case that this specific building should be mentioned when the contents of the report you referenced has nothing to do with the specific buildings that fell, but about the geo-politics and responses of the country.

Oh and these policies you are talking about robbed the US citizens of most of there constitutional freedom and rights. Yeah, well that is indeed more important than an actual report of the occurrences on 9/11.

...what? Can you expand on this statement? I don't really understand what you're trying to say.

But by now it is clear to me that indeed I am wasting my time pointing these things out, because you are too indoctrinated with current dogma to even begin asking critical questions that the media won't answer.

No, I am willing to ask critical questions. I'd appreciate that you don't make accusations about me without good reason.

Also, this discussion will not gain me any comment karma as your original comment was downvoted so much that the replies are not visible as well. I wish you a good day.

Wow, what an immature thing to say. Why would you care about fake internet points? Honestly, this is about facts and skepticism, and I'd like to prove to you that my position is the one where the facts on. I mostly base this on the consensus of experts being on my side, rather than your side.

But, it doesn't seem to me that you really care about any of those things, and prefer to have a conspiracy theory despite the evidence. And that's a shame.

[deleted]

I need you to be much more specific on what I need to "explain".

What specifically is your claim with regards to this black skid mark?

Where are the clothes and 43 passenger bodies?

I'd assume in a cemetery somewhere. Maybe some number of them were cremated.

You clearly are too caught up with your "facts" you need reevaluate the truth buddy.

They're not my facts, they're just facts. And I believe, by definition really, that facts point to truth.

Buddy.

[deleted]

...no, I'm not acting dumb. I'm asking what you think needs to be explained.

There exist plenty of images of the site that shows sign of a plane.

Find them here

We're clearly being lied to about that event which gives even further basis to question the official report about the wtc's.

I don't agree with this statement and don't think you've proven your case in any way.

[deleted]

What do you mean? Those pictures were taken at the crash site, and they show signs of a plane, which is what you asked me to provide. What else could I provide to "explain flight 93" as you challenged me to do?

Yes we did asshole!! It's on thousands of video's on youtube, it's indisputable. What kind of con are you trying for here?

Indeed, what a douche...check out the discussion I had with him (hidden comments). He's too far gone...

How do you know what a substance is through a youtube video?

I know construction, I am a fireman, a welder, HVAC serviceman, I know what it takes to melt steel, I regularly use a cutting torch that happens to melt that steel at 6500 degrees. Its not rocket science but there is some science to it that anyone with common sense knows. Why do you think all those engineers from AE have signed on for? If you don't think the gov't did it , I don't give a shit but atleast do yourself a favor and go listen to some people who were close to the situation. Susan Lindauer makes a pretty damning case about how it got done in her testimony. She's the only woman ever prosecuted with the Patriot Act and she worked for the CIA. Whistleblowers and coming out strong. And if your just another shill, well.... your fucked.

I know construction, I am a fireman, a welder, HVAC serviceman, I know what it takes to melt steel, I regularly use a cutting torch that happens to melt that steel at 6500 degrees.

What does any of this have to do with my question? I asked how you can know whether something you're seeing in a grainy YouTube video is for example steel or aluminum. The answer is you cannot.

Its not rocket science but there is some science to it that anyone with common sense knows.

Right, it's not rocket science. It's metallurgy.

Why do you think all those engineers from AE have signed on for?

"All those"? It's a miniscule, basically zero percent of the profession of millions of professionals. And what, exactly, have they "signed"? A petition, done years ago, saying they want more investigation. How many would still sign now that the NIST report is out? (About 2/3 of the signatures were collected before the NIST final reports came out in late 2008).

If you don't think the gov't did it , I don't give a shit but atleast do yourself a favor and go listen to some people who were close to the situation. Susan Lindauer makes a pretty damning case about how it got done in her testimony. She's the only woman ever prosecuted with the Patriot Act and she worked for the CIA. Whistleblowers and coming out strong. And if your just another shill, well.... your fucked.

LOL... So the entire NIST is made up of government co-conspirators, in your eyes, and who is a 100% truthful, accurate source? A mental patient with delusions of grandeur.

I wouldn't ask the structural engineers at the NIST to weld my Monte Carlo's exhaust together, and I'm not going to ask you to understand why it's simply nonsensical to think that a government conspiracy did 9/11 with explosives, etc etc.

You drive a Monte Carlo? Oh there it is!! You are the expert we have all been looking for , please, tell us all how it is oh wise one!!

You were saying? 1. molten metal video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmuzyWC60eE

2. molten metal pic: http://imgur.com/dBS3fOD

3. NIST admiting freefall (wait for it): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4GY-ZLZg7w

Yes, there was molten metal present, and I never claimed otherwise. However, the claim was that there was molten steel present, and that was determined to be false by the NIST, and by independent evaluations from ASCE and SEANY.

And yes, there was free fall for some walls at certain points. So what?

the beauty of the molten metal is that it doesn't matter what kind of metal it was because the temperature of a radiating blackbody can be determined by its color alone and the color of the molten metal pouring from those towers easily excedes the maximum temperature of burning jet fuel. Even if someoen claims it was the aluminium from the plane, they still could not explain how that aluminium reached temperatures over 1000 degrees Celcius. Not with jet fuel anyway.

And the freefall was not for certain walls, it was for the entire building during 2.3 seconds of the 5.4 seconds NIST originally purported (which includes the crimping of the center of the roof, before the bulk of the building even began to fall. Analyses that begin timing from when both edges start collapse are consistent with free fall speed).

FACTS:

http://911blogger.com/news/2009-10-06/facts-speak-themselves

http://rememberbuilding7.org/7-facts-about-building-7/

[deleted]

No personal attacks please.

This isn't adding anything to the conversation at all, you aren't even attempting to represent your side of the debate. Future posts like this will likely earn you a ban.

• OBL didn't shutdown the pentagon air defence

• OBL didn't send the f16's in the wrong direction

• OBL didn't shoot down the shanksville plane

• OBL didn't have troops staged and ready to go into afghanistan prior to 911

• OBL didn't write the patriot act prior to 911

• OBL didn't get the "saudi passport holders" visas

• OBL didn't clear the crimescenes and destroy the evidence

• OBL didn't refuse to conduct and investigation for over 400 days

• OBL didn't elect Henry Kissinger as Chairman of the investigation

• OBL didn't wire the lead hijacker $100,000 days before the attack (that was the head of the ISI for anyone wondering - he was having meetings with officials in Washington on 9/11)

http://www.projectcensored.org/top-stories/articles/24-japan-questions-9-11-and-the-global-war-on-terror/

Just like you can't say the emperor is wearing no clothes, you can't say he murdered members of his family either.

I haven't forgotten

I will never forget 911

No, just nobody gives a shit.

No country that is a member of the bank of international settlements will do anything.

why would there be an international investigation? we don't need other countries or UN type bodies meddling in our events. We should have had an independent study performed on the same evidence the 9/11 Commission was given, but that was to no avail.

THE SENSIBLE DOUBT - Danish documentary about 9/11

Chili remembers what the US did on 9-11

Mossad did 9/11

Show me one single, incontrovertible piece of evidence that supports the claim that the US "committed" 9/11.

It's impossible to show incontrovertible evidence when that evidence is being suppressed, e.g., like the many different angles of Pentagon surveillance video that have never been seen; or the dust sample tests from Ground Zero that were never "officially" done; or the two missing "black box" flight recorders from Ground Zero; or the various governement information and testimony that was either misleading or otherwise not investigated or followed up (according to several members of the 9/11 Commission).

So then the claim of the OP, that the US "committed" it is just an opinion.

The problem is that in this subreddit, opinions miraculously trans-mutate into facts that other conspiracy theorists use to perpetuate the dis-information. There is no solid evidence that the US purposely destroyed the towers, but that doesnt stop people - who all have an anti-government bias - from connecting dots that just aren't there.

Given the downright dodgy and inept 9/11 investigation done by the U.S. government and lamestream media, then it would be naive to accept the 9/11 Commission report at face value because there is no "solid" evidence to back up their official conclusions either. Furthermore, given Uncle Sam's looooong history of propaganda and disinformation and false flag attacks, staing that "conspiracy theorists in this subreddit" perpetuate 9/11 disinformation is the proverbial pot to kettle black attack that hints at your own pro-government "opinion". That said, I believe the dots are there, and they reveal a completely different perp outline, only 'We the Peons' are not and can not be allowed to ever see them.

Are you willing to read a book? I'd recommend Michael Ruppert's Crossing the Rubicon. It is very well sourced. Or just watch some of his YouTube videos, I found him credible and informative. In conjunction with Wolfgang's reply, it is a very complicated situation and there is no single smoking gun. We can't feed you a single end all answer so easily or those responsible would already have been held responsible. If you are willing to spend some time investigating and not dismiss it all out of hand as crackpot ramblings, then you may change your mind

Have you seen the USA's military spending? The USA is the dominant force on this planet and they are not opposed to use of force or occupation.

What are people meant to say to them. "We think you were responsible for 9/11 America!" "No we weren't" .... "Um... any ideas guys?"

Our government, since its inception, has been allowed to freely do what it pleases, usually at the expense of the middle- and lower-classes, with impunity. Whether it is killing its own civilians to further a political agenda, invading countries simply because they did not want to trade with us, or because we wanted more of their land for ourselves, the government or whatever power there is controlling it, will not relent.

Why would that all stop now, when we are at our richest and most powerful state we have ever been in? It will not stop until the majority realizes we are the worlds only hope. Our powerful, elitist, Imperialistic government will be the bane of human existence if this continues.

We really still on this shit.

jet fuel cannot melt steal (only soften it), and yet we saw molten metal pouring from the towers

No one ever claimed it could, and no, we did not see any molten steel.

That and the freefall demolitions into their own footprint

No, we did not see a straight free fall demolition, and no, it did not fall into its own footprint by any reasonable definition of "footprint".

Indeed, what a douche...check out the discussion I had with him (hidden comments). He's too far gone...

How do you know what a substance is through a youtube video?

Can we please stop using this like it's a powerful argument? In my experience, talking about how the towers fell is not an effective way to get people to reconsider the official narrative. Instead of a bunch of non-engineers making wild claims about molten steel and temperatures, why don't we put out some actual facts regarding these events.

Dick Cheney changed the hijack response protocol so that planes could not be intercepted without his permission. He conducted war games on 9/11 that introduced false radar blips, muddling everything. We already had a draft of the Patriot Act before 9/11. We immediately went to war with a country that wasn't behind the attacks. We had Bin Laden in a hospital in Dubai months before the attacks and didn't get him. We had detailed, documented warnings from several counties in the months leading to the attacks, and yet Cheney sent several of our response jets on training missions overseas. Several people were placing bets against the stocks of the airlines involved with 9/11 in the days leading up to the attack.

In summary, there are dozens of documented sources that provide much clearer evidence of a conspiracy than this tired old talking point about steel's melting temperature. If you want sources, read Michael Ruppert's Rubicon, or check out his YouTube videos.

Edit: I didn't realize there was such a lively discussion about WTC-7 below me. I'm very interested in this as well, but again, non of you are providing specific sources, and you won't have good luck convincing people. There are much more important, documented aspects of this conspiracy that don't hinge on how the buildings actually fell. Yes, I believe we took them down, but you'll sound far less crazy to an outsider if you don't focus on only that.

Yes, there was molten metal present, and I never claimed otherwise. However, the claim was that there was molten steel present, and that was determined to be false by the NIST, and by independent evaluations from ASCE and SEANY.

And yes, there was free fall for some walls at certain points. So what?

I have never seen such a thoughtful, articulate argument on this matter before, thank you. I would certainly agree, based on the charts and photos, that the temperature of those metals is well in excess of 315C. Your comment also motivated me to investigate the sources claiming nanothermite was used, and I would agree with you this is a powerful and important argument. I suppose I got fed up hearing some poorly thought out ideas from others and just moved on to different elements of this conspiracy, but now I can appreciate how damning this evidence is, thank you