But it's currently being controlled by a force that is other than the people themselves and is ready to be used AGAINST the people. The question or issue isn't whether they're already in charge or not, but who CONTROLS them. Right now, the people do not. My point is that it's possible for them to fight FOR the people (as should be the case) instead of against them is the case currently.

I put an OP up in /r/Army relating to this, and even though there were a lot of blind, indoctrinated responses, there seemed also to be a glint of hope in there that enough WOULD stand for the people.

This is correct, but one has to realize that the military industrial complex is composed of the military and the individuals in it. Again, the reality of it just happened in Egypt. Not saying it would be just as easy or easy at all here in the U.S., but it's nowhere near impossible.

Read my "EDIT". I understand better that things are a bit more complicated than I was thinking when I initially made the OP statement.

Really? Hmmm (no /s). Who knows what might truly be the case. I can say that I've read that the PEOPLE are the ones that began with the marches and not the military, and it was because THE PEOPLE said this president had a whole year to make things happen and he DIDN'T, so his time is up. To my understanding, this is why the people were demonstrating en mass: Because the pres that took over didn't change things for the better either. That pres then said to the people "No. I'm not stepping down".

Then the military stepped in, took the side of the people (as they should), and said "Yes. As a matter of fact, you are stepping down."

That's my understanding of what's happened. If you know of information counter to this, please share it, as I know that there are a lot of psyops lies and b.s. that get flung around and I acknowledge that I could be mistaken in my perspective of things.

And stand humanity will. We just have to get to burning.

I feel we need to do it intelligently, however, and not just riot like morons. Intelligent revolution - peaceful or otherwise - is the way to go. I agree w/what you're saying, however.

Revolution is a messy business.

It certainly can be. Yes.

Its never gonna happen until people accept that it may not be possible to carry out with a surgeons precision.

I think a lot of people OUTSIDE of America realize this. Here in the US, however, it does seem that too many of us are waiting for something that is in all likelihood not going to happen before we get up and act upon the maladies that have been occurring in this country and world.

Espescially if we're talking about ousting "the men behind the curtain" as we only have a vague idea who they are, specifically.

I would agree that we may not have that great an idea, but we have a better idea now than ever before, perhaps.

Unless we're just gonna lynch everyone who makes more than 50,000 dollars.

Certainly not.

Which 1) makes him part of the problem, and 2) he's there to do more than just that.

Obama is certainly PART of the problem, but don't think for a second that I think he's the main or the biggest problem even for a moment. When I said we need to follow suit, I meant more that we need to get ready to stand up for our rights as citizens.

What has happened in Egypt is gross violation of their constitution!

The problem previously was that the president was engaging in a not-so-gross but just as negligent violation of their constitution by virtue of his simply not working for and on behalf of the people.

The democratically elected president has been torn down by the Army destroying the constitution set out last year.

I admit that it might sound kind of fucked up to say this, but maybe that wouldn't have happened if that president would have done the job he was elected to do in the first place - which, after a year, he still hadn't done.

The Army and Police, who last year were the enemies of the people, both groups responsible for propping up past dictators and numerous human rights abuses are not the hero’s of the people.

Valid statement. Acknowledged.

Now you say you want this to happen in America?

I'm saying that continuing to let the White House carry on in the business-as-usual manner that has been the case for God knows how long is NOT working in the least.

I guess what you are saying is you want the US army to take over the country and denounce your President and elected representatives. Now that my friend is the New World Order.

The difficulty in allowing any type of military coup involves what happens after - especially if it's the military itself that is now in power. I, again, acknowledge this. It is obviously not an easy dynamic in the least. It does seem to me that things carrying on as they have been for the past decade plus (actually way more than a decade plus) is NOT helping the county in the least, however.

It feels like the difference between "a soft kill" (the current way of governance in the United States) and "a hard kill" (the military siding w/the people). You end up dead in both scenarios anyway...

EDIT: Actually you know what? What I've been advocating the entire time, as I just realized when I included the last parenthetical statement on here, is the military working on BEHALF OF THE PEOPLE. I wouldn't call this a "military coup" per se. It's the military exercising the will of the people against a despotic government. I understand that the problem with this occurs if the military then takes over the entire government and themselves ends up actually being WORSE than the one they just deposed. This is a very valid concern, and it's not one that I was talking about or advocating for. Again, I'm advocating the WILL OF THE PEOPLE to be preeminently represented - as it indeed should be - and not just the will of a few cronies in power in the White House as is currently the case. The current cronies in the WH have sucked so badly for so long, and the civilian population has done so little to stand up and demonstrate against them, that the idea of the military itself standing up FOR THE PEOPLE and ousting the WH cronies does indeed seem like a good idea - especially since that's exactly what it seems just happened in Egypt. The problem, I see now, is that the government that comes after might be one controlled by a military that might be WORSE than the previous one.

So then WTF should be done? Allowing the current administration to continue on as has been the case is NOT the answer by any means. So, again, what to do?

I'm not saying we should be stupid and crazy and riot as a citizenry. ABSOLUTELY NOT. However, I think we should be kind of DONE with continuing to just "sit and wait and see what happens next". That has been the general modus operandi of the American citizenry while the citizens of other countries grow more and more tired of getting taken advantage of and end up standing up and exercising their rights. Meanwhile the cage of our totalitarian incarceration gets steadily completed while we continue sitting back, watching tv and patting ourselves on the back for being such an awesome people in such an awesome nation. "Amurrika! Fuck yeah!" kind of thing. Idiocracy come to life kind of thing...

We're not exercising them as well as we should be, however. The other point that you brought up in this thread is a very valid one, and I responded at length to it.

which of you geniuses knows how to build a republic from the rubble?

I would say quite a few.

Think fast, you don't have much time to act before outside forces destabilize your struggling nation in an attempt to loot resources.

And "thinking fast" is not by any means an impossibility here.

Oh and America is far from homogeneous, so you'll also have sporadic race, class, gender, etc wars to contend with.

Wouldn't that make them HETEROgeneous and not homogenous? Even so, you are failing to realize that the only way that we would be able to be successful in something like this is if we come together as a people FIRST - and if we DO become sufficiently homogeneous to succeed, the "sporadic race, class, gender" wars you mention won't be as big of an issue as you might think.

Good luck to you and pray that the strongest, baddest motherfuckers with tanks and bombs don't decide to turn things into a hell-on-earth military dictatorship devoid of television, internet, food programs, welfare, subsidies, or any of the thousands of amenities we each take for granted.

And who would those "strongest motherfuckers" be? What would stop them from suffering the same fate as the government that would have just gotten overthrown prior?

Small African nations turn into hell when things collapse, what do ya'll think will happen to the continental US?

This is a good and valid point. However, there is already a deep, established well of academia and effective revolutionary thinkers here in this country. I understand that it wouldn't in any way be easy, but I feel that a consortium "round table" of sorts could take place that could devise effective alternates to what currently exist in this country and then present that to the people to decide upon.

Woohoooo, let's fuck shit up without having any idea what to build in its place or any consensus on what this new nation's policies should be!

You couldn't have stated that more ignorantly, I feel. This is by NO means whatsoever what I am advocating or what I have at any time said should take place. Perhaps it shows where your mind is at more than that of anyone else when you say things like this, as it is nowhere near to what I feel should be done.

So what should we do then? Simply allow the shitty government that exists keep fucking us more and more? Heck, the fact that we ARE as generally privileged here as we are is what's making us remain complacent while more and more of our liberties keep getting slowly taken away. Soon we WILL be locked down and then we WON'T be able to get up and demonstrate/let our discontent be known and heard.

Are you saying that America is so different than Egypt that it's not even applicable or analogous to compare what they did over there to what we can do over here? Are you saying that the people here in this country aren't on their way to being as taken advantage of more and more? Are you saying that we in this country aren't going to need to stand up for our rights soon as more and more and more of them continue to be getting taken away?

Hell that's the very reason why if the military wakes up and realizes that they work for the PEOPLE and the constitution of the United States instead of the corporocrats that have turned them into world raping mercenaries and have caused them to RAPE that constitution, then maybe they might snap out of what's happening and SIDE with the people. If that happens, and the U.S. military get behind the people...shit. There's not a country or a government or a corporation in the world that can stop that.

Not saying it would be easy. Just saying that it's not in spite, but BECAUSE of how much power and influence the military has that their siding with the people would be such a monumentally big thing.

Ah. Okay. I get it. So just go ahead and keep sitting back and eating your potato chips and having your cookouts while you watch Monday Night Football with your thumb up your ass while the government takes more and more rights away from you, right?

I'm not quite sure I'm the one being "most fucking retarded" here.

A Coup d'etat often times leads to a brutal/oppressive regime. Look at both modern and historical examples. What you're suggesting is not a good way to go about initiating change in our society.

I understand this better now.

The only true way to do that is to elect honest, moral & incorruptible leaders.

This is 100% correct, but this is 100% what we DON'T have. We don't have honest people in power, and we also don't seem to have a citizenship with enough moral fiber to be able to fully assess exactly WHO should in fact be in power in the first place. The fact that we are a people that have allowed the US to be as world raping as it certainly does not speak well for our ability to elect honest, moral, incorruptible leaders.

It's definitely a chess game for sure, but I think we need to be very wary of continuing to say "wait a little longer". As I said elsewhere here, I don't advocate just starting to storm about and riot or anything. That would be stupid for the citizenry to do. However, the waiting time I think is REEEEALLY close to being over with and we need to be REAL ready to begin to act soon.

Well, I would say that secret societies and secret information in general eventually comes back and bites itself in the rump. Not that there aren't a lot of risks w/having the information be open, but I still feel it's better to NOT hide things than to hide them.

No treason if the human family drops all the bullshit separation shenanigans and becomes one people. Easier said than done, I understand, but still...

Bavo, and how do you plan on persuading our military to follow suit?

Bavo?

...

Regardless, I don't plan on persuading the military to do anything in this area. Simply realize that there is a constitution they swore to protect, and if/when they find that their jobs involve having to aggressively pursue their own citizens and their own mothers and fathers and husbands and wives while they're at it, they might realize they're going after the wrong people and might, instead, be more justified in going after those forces ordering them to do such things instead of the American people (if things ever get to that point).

Egyptians need to learn that real democracy has it's unrest until a real constitution can be drafted and voted upon.

With talk like this, what do you as an American know about a "real constitution"?

Everything you said that took place happened because the people themselves didn't consistently stand up enough for their rights. From your words - indicative of others' thoughts as they may be - it would seem that you might be right and the human race has really very little chance of ever being able to do what so many in this subreddit whine at not being able to do: Rule themselves, not be enslaved by shitty laws, not be shat on by a corrupt government, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah.

None of what you said would happen if the people were disciplined enough to come together and work TOGETHER for a better government and a better country. Your response (again, as indicative of many, unfortunately) seems to ensure that most will be willing to simply continue with things as they are.

What do you propose? What do you think would work? Why would you ever come on a subreddit like this and talk about "the wrongs that are going on in this world" if your biggest response to something that can actually REALLY change things is "Helll no! Gawd what a stupid idea."

Oh what...does your idea of how to change things involve "Voting!" and "Signing petitions to let our leaders know just how upset we are with them!"

The problems that exist in this country cannot be rectified or fixed through the use of the very organizations and methods that created them.

In fact they have the golden opportunity to improve on such by being patient and using the ballot box.

The ballot box has proven to be a joke in this country. This is not hyperbole or theory. It has been proven that the elections are rigged and voting is a rigged sham. All the patience in the world won't change that for the better.

Such as limiting to one term or a requirement to make mans natural law comes before governmental law comes first. Allow open tolerance to different political philosophies and to curtail of the power of the military to answer to a Republic. Not giving corporations the same rights as people.

All of this sounds good and I would agree with it. As the system in this country stands now, however, such ideas are simply not even allowed to be voiced, let alone really voted upon in a fair manner...so how exactly are ideas like that to be brought to the fore when there is a group in power that simply doesn't allow it?

You also seem to think we didn't have a civil war either?

What did I say or do to give you that impression?

Our country is not perfect, and eventually we will either solve it or fall into the same trap as previous democracies did such as Rome into a dictatorship.

The latter seems to be on its way toward happening. Sitting by passively or trying to use the SAME system that got us here in order to save things might not be the best approach.

That's the weakness of democracies due to it's citizens not taking action.

And that's why this OP is at least advocating SOME action that is different than either the non action that most Americans are currently engaged in, or the "voting" non action that is the alternative that many choose.

However you cannot tell me that military coups are the answer.

Despite the proclamations of the OP, I wouldn't go that super far either.

Our rebellion against England as did Ireland or France revolutions did not need a military coup.

Our rebellion against England wasn't a military coup? It was a people's rebellion, was it not? That made it almost military in a defacto manner because the citizenship got into a confrontation w/the military of England, no? Seems a bit semantic.

I'm just stating that Egyptians should be more patient even if it required waiting until another election.

I think they're tired of being fucked with by a government that promises one thing and does/delivers another. I'm saying that it has long since been time that WE AMERICANS should be feeling like this. Telling Americans, for example to "Just wait for another election." seems like a REALLY bad idea, since the ills in this country have been the case for a long, LONG time, and there should really be no more "waiting for another election" by the people. How would it be any different than the one before and the one before that?

They did not even give their current president a chance.

Na. He had a chance. He had a whole God damn year. Don't tell me he couldn't have done anything in that time. That's bullshit.

Democracies are usually slow in action.

No. Politicians are the ones that are usually slow in actions. Shit can get done a lot more expeditiously. A LOT more.

Egypt also did not take enough time to develop a good solid Constitution. that needs time and lots of arguments between leaders locked in a room for weeks to develop.

Emphasis on weeks. That pres had a year.

This time try making a real level headed constitutions and hope your military answers to the republic and not to themselves like so many times before.

I do not disagree with this.

Maybe you should have waited to see if the local citizens of Egypt took control themselves instead of the military doing it for them?

I'm not sure that military involvement wouldn't have happened one way or the other if the citizens did try to handle things themselves. I'm just saying I'm glad that the military took the side of the citizens this time.

We need to simply dissolve the system by no longer participating in it.

This got downvoted, but I would actually wholeheartedly agree.

Reorganize in hyper-local and online communities.

Or hyper national...or hyper global. I think the main point is that we have to organize in a manner that is not as separatist as it has been and is currently.

Do not pay taxes. Reduce your reliance on currency.

This. I'm not certain how evolved and capable the human race is at doing this, but this is indeed what is needed none the less.

Produce yourself everything that you can.

Along with cooperating and openly trading w/others.

I think it is a very dangerous thing for an Army to move against a democratic nation irregardless of the will of the people in this regard.

I certainly think it is very risky, yes. However, I also feel that America is fast approaching a point (if it's not there already) where something has to get done and done soon or we are going to be a LOT closer to a totalitarian state than we might think could be the case.

The nature of what the Egyptian military did in Egypt is simply a hybrid coup and it should not have happened.

Seems to me that things continuing on in the manner that they were weren't really helping things go down a good path either though. The president that took over wasn't changing things for the better. He simply wasn't.

The installation of a defacto president, control by military police, etc, is not conductive to a democratic nation. Nor a republic like the United States.

I wouldn't disagree with this.

Consider as well, in the US, that the very issue is a military-industrial complex that has lost its ability to be governed, or rather, we have lost the ability to govern a standing military and the industries and people that feed it.

Basically what you're saying here is "Would you rather have America controlled by Obama and his cronies? or by the general of the Army itself?"

That's a good question, but...well, isn't the POTUS traditionally a former military general anyway? Perhaps it would be going from one bad situation to another. Perhaps.

Would you like to change America? Educate yourself and those near you. Nothing destroys the elite faster than information rich masses of people.

Well said and very much agreed. It's difficult, however, since this entire country is bombarded by overt and (more importantly) covert methods of dumbing down the masses. This makes it VERY difficult for people to help and educate themselves. VERY difficult.

As I mentioned to someone else in this thread, I posted an OP in /r/Army and there seemed to be at least a little thread of hope similar to what you mentioned here.

And people thinking this is the very reason why we are 1) so easily contained as a citizenry by TPTB, and 2) why it looks like we may likely remain enslaved and have very little chance against the encroachment that's been happening to our freedoms more and more.

I wish, oh I wish you were not generally correct in this sentiment. Stockholm Syndrome is strongest in the American mind, it seems.

Your comment was downvoted, but is still actually very, very valid, unfortunately. We have indeed been programmed to sit still and take our beatings like good citizens.

Correct and agreed. I understand better now that things are more complicated than I initially stated, and I posted an EDIT to that effect, but ultimately the will of the people themselves would negate any of these difficulties if it were simply strong and resolute enough to WORK. Unfortunately, we continue to allow ourselves to be led, and often time those that are interested in taking the mantle of leading do NOT have the best intentions in mind.

Might sound kind of out there, but I'm not sure that the following isn't closer to the truth:

The experiment that is America the human population on planet Earth is unfortunately seeing the reigns held by rather heartless people beings.

Relevant: 1 and 2

Fair enough. Either way, I would tend to agree with you that the reigns are held by those that are not interested in the welfare of the American people or humanity in general.

I understand the military can't be trusted. I've always known this. I understand the negative implications of having the military take over the government now more than before I made the post. However, I still say that not doing anything against things as they currently stand will effectively lead to the same despotic situation that you say would happen if the military ousted the current government and they themselves took over. Allowing things to remain as they are is NOT the answer.

Have a little faith in the rebel spirit of Americans. When we had enough then we will let it out.Especially

But you see that's kind of the whole point. Here in America, things have been so good for so long in comparison with the rest of the world that we have gotten that rebel spirit all but sapped out of us. We have gotten so rotten and lazy and spoiled that it seems by the time we stand up and say "We've had enough!" things will already long have been so unGodly horrible that it will simply be too late to actually DO something about it at that point.

The faith in the rebel spirit of Americans is one that might have been well placed when thinking about those who lived a century or more ago...but today? That spirit is seeming to be more of a vestigial remnant long covered in Doritos, Double Cheeseburgers, Jerry Springer, and Monday Night Football.

I'd love to be wrong, but our actions (or inaction) up to this point have seemed to say otherwise.

Plenty in the army will jump side also if it comes down to that.

And that is the VERY reason why I initially said it might not be a horrible idea if the military fight FOR the people. I wasn't thinking about the real possibility of a military coup ending up making things worse in this country AFTER the ousting of the current government and possibly installing a military dictatorship or whatnot in its place. I was thinking about the fact that there ARE indeed real patriots that ARE armed and that DO belong to the armed forces and that feel this country should be free and NOT a dictatorship and would be willing to fight FOR keeping it free - a thing it's been pretty far from for a while now and growing less and less free every day.

All these wars being fought in other people's land killing them in the name of "freedom"? Well what would happen if the military REALLY woke up and found out that the real enemy is indeed right here in this country and it is THEY that need to be fought against by the military? That's where my sentiment was going.

However the Federal army leadership. No way.

Hell no. Of course not. Most that are that far up are so far gone that it's a lost cause to think about them. It's more about the rank and file and those a bit above them. That's where the true numbers are at anyway though. That's who I was referring to with regard to fighting for the people.

Very valid point, and acknowledged. Read the "EDIT" I put on the OP.

There's more to it than that.

Yes. I'm understanding this better now.

enough damn states need to hold a convention to change the constitution to add tern limits on congress.

I think this is the least that should be done actually.

Interesting added information. Thanks for that.

Na. First of all, you have to define who and what the "leader" is. Second of all, if what you want to do is fight for the betterment of a people, it might be better to fight with your words in front of a podium than with a gun. I'm not opposed to armed conflict, but I think people being willing en mass to come together and demonstrate against TPTB would be pretty strong too.

Hmm? Explain what you mean please.

Everything you refer to here as "the military" is, in fact, those corporacrats and generals at THE VERY TOP that command all the underlings below them. It doesn't refer to what the mass throng of soldiers think and feel or want to do. The idea that "the military would love nothing more than more power", again, refers to an area of the military that itself is in the vast minority. That area (the top minority) has a LOT of power, but those below are much more likely to NOT go along with that blind acquisition of power in the same way if at all.

Most solderers said they would shoot on Americans if ordered as long as it wasn't their own family while one even said he would gladly throw his siblings in a cell.

Interesting because that seems to go directly against the general sentiment in this particular thread I started in /r/Army that addressed THAT VERY THING. Various of the soldiers there said they would 1) NOT shoot American citizens and 2) would question and disobey if they were directly ordered to do something that they could not themselves adequately question or responded to.

Now we have foreign troops training here in America, gee I wonder what they will be used for.

Now that is a very real concern, and I think is indeed something that needs to be considered because, while the US military might not shoot civilians, US trained foreigners very well might.

The fact is a good chunk of our soldiers won't refuse an order to fire on Americans.

I got the EXACT opposite response when I myself directly questioned them, so I very much beg to differ.

Meanwhile we have troops on loan to shore up the numbers in a few small areas where they won't fire on people and you can bet they will be imprisoned for treason.

Some of the soldiers I questioned in the link I provided also said that if they saw OTHER soldiers going against the constitution and shooting at civilians, they themselves would protect the civilians and detain/stop the offending soldiers.

While I don't think you have bad responses, and we DO have to be very mindful of some of the things you mentioned here, I asked /r/Army and straight enough from the horse's mouth, I was told that they would NOT attack civilians in the manner that you mentioned here.

don't be surprised if they start fighting amongst themselves first.

I wouldn't be very surprised, as the military indoctrination is actually VERY much against what many of us would do as compassionate human beings, and I imagine various military people are still very compassionate humans even though they've been hammered in their indoctrination very differently and counter to that internal compassion. It creates for a lot of internal angst. That could cause many to go against one another.