The thing that gets me the most is that somehow a passport survived a fire that caused a skyscraper like that to collapse.

had completely forgotten about that, thanks for the contribution. Ya it is completely ridiculous.

[deleted]

That would be correct.

A very important thing to note is that, 13/15 on that list were either partially recovered or lost in water at the location of the crash(es). The other 2/15 were neither over water nor partially recovered. The only 2 in history. Just take a guess which one's those were. Of course, one could argue that "there's a first time for everything," but that argument falls apart once you realize it happened twice on the same day in just about the same location.

It was also the first time a jumbo jet rammed into a skyscraper.

I just saw this and this was my reaction.

Elaborate.

FFS! Because they were both buried by the same collapsing buildings perhaps?!

But they can find a hijackers passport on the ground undamaged?

How many did they find? And I'll bet it wasn't "undamaged". That's just the typical kind of exaggeration I see here all the time.

Let's put it this way. Say there was 4 hijackers on the plane, and 196 other passengers (I don't know how many there were, perhaps someone can enlighten me). Say they find one passport only, and it's a hijackers... it's only 50 to 1 odds. It's uncommon odds at best.

I'd be interested in the actual numbers. I'm sure all you people who've "done your research" can answer without even looking it up by now. You've had 12 years after all.

Looks to be in amazing condition

How many did they find? And I'll bet it wasn't "undamaged". That's just the typical kind of exaggeration I see here all the time.

For you to say jetfuel melted steel but left a passport intact and legible, meanwhile the black boxes were lost forever is insanity and illogical.

Why do you expect consistent conditions in such a varied environment?

Why do you seem to think the exact same fate will meet every object in that environment?

And why are you still talking about melted steel after 12 fecking years?

A passport is light and relatively rigid so it's going to end up in a different place than a fairly heavy box in a cupboard.

Part of the issue seems to be that conspiracy theorists don't accept complex, chaotic situations. Everything must be easily explainable. any oddities are immediately considered suspicious. Well, I hate to tell you but you live in an odd and uncertain world.

Why do you expect consistent conditions in such a varied environment?

Consistent conditions? you mean like physics? any sane person would expect them to be. Unless youre suggesting fire is only hot sometimes?

Why do you seem to think the exact same fate will meet every object in that environment?

because 11400 gallons of jetfuel is not a picky 12 year old girl. If its in the proximity it gets burned. the fact i have to explain fire to you is mind numbing

And why are you still talking about melted steel after 12 fecking years?

Because it happened? Its part of some theories, its claimed in the commission report, and theres pictures. Why are you NOT talking about melted steel? look to your right and gaze at the photos of all the steel frame structures that were in much more intense fires AND DIDNT COLLAPSE.

A passport is light and relatively rigid so it's going to end up in a different place than a fairly heavy box in a cupboard.

Are they also fire retardant to combusting jetfuel (850+ Celsius)?

Part of the issue seems to be that conspiracy theorists don't accept complex, chaotic situations.

theres a difference between complex and chaotic with outright lies and bullshit. Just because something is "chaotic" or "complex" means they receiver a waiver from the universe and are able to defy physics.

everything must be easily explainable. any oddities are immediately considered suspicious.

have you seen some theories? no one is looking for easy explanations. just because youre willing to sit on your thumb and just nod at the idea "its too complex for my little brain to understand".

Your argument is simply that i should accept the fact that all the events on 9/11 defied physics (in conjunction with the official story) based off the principle of its " an odd and uncertain world", a world apparently void of laws or rules. go away, its clear you dont know what youre talking about.

Nothing defied the "laws of physics". Your understanding of the event is incomplete which is why you have "inconsistencies".

Nothing defied the "laws of physics".

ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Your understanding of the event is incomplete which is why you have "inconsistencies".

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Its even funnier the second time!
From the man who claims a paper passport can survive a jetfuel explosion strong enough to collapse and entire steel framed structure. Lets build building out of passports, since they seem to be more reliable and fire resistant than concrete and steel! hilarious!

it clear by your blatant avoidance of the rest of my comment and focus on 3 words i said, that you have no leg to stand on. Go away, and dont contaminate the gene pool

You're both very silly and offensive.

sorry you feel that way

I've looked it up...

American Airlines Flight 11 – One World Trade Center

87 people onboard total and 5 hijackers. If they only found one passport from the plane, the odds would be a bit over 17 to 1...

Well, that makes it less extraordinary already.

Well, they crashed into top of the buildings, not the ground floor, and then someone had to pick all that up, aka sift through it. So it wasn't buried under the whole thing and left for a decade. It was buried under a 1/4 of it and picked through for over a year.

Also, it was a huge, historical event, and you'd expect that they gave it their best shot at sifting through the rubble, for bodies and for black boxes as well, obviously. And then of course there's the forensic wealth to be discovered.

No, wait, that's not what happened, though. Instead, the exact opposite happened. They found a paper passport that was on the plane, and literally sold the rest of the rubble to China immediately (or so I hear all the time).

But wait, is that true? This link says that they searched in the rubble for over a year, only recovering 1400 bodies. Is that even half of the bodies?

But if bodies and paper could be found after looking for more than a year, why not titanium and steel purpose-built devices created solely to preserve data through a catastrophic failure, such as a plane crash?

Maybe they disappeared amidst all the thermite reactions.

They were found: we just don't get to hear them. Jesse Ventura put that on his show.

How many were subsequently pulverized in 1000's of tons of collapsing building?

As you may know, black boxes are specifically designed to withstand extreme environments. However, that's not to say they're completely indestructible, but even then, at the very least, remnants of a pulverized black box would have been noticed, being a vibrant red or orange. Not even pieces of one were found during cleanup (or so they say.)

Wait, wait. A black box is red or orange?!?!

Really?

I would expect that even a black box to have been obliterated given the circumstances of the collapsing towers.

You assume that the paint couldn't be scraped off of it...

designed to survive 600mph into a mountain, i think it can cope with a bit of rough and tumble at freefall

Ahh... Why are you ignoring the weight and total destruction of the building it was in?

Because the weight of a building isn't going to squish a box into oblivion, it'd still be there somewhere.

[deleted]

Whut? I wasn't aware being somewhere was a prerequisite to having a view on something...

WERE ^YOU THERE O^MFG JEZ?! Get real.

the majority of the debris was DUST anyway.

Just what? No, just no. What are you using to measure the debris? Weight? Appearance?

Do you think the towers just turned to dust the moment they began to fall, holding little to no mass as they fell down?

Obviously it just took weeks to clear up afterwards due to dust pan shortages. /s

The streets were covered in paper from the offices, but they found the passport in the middle of it. Not like it would have been just sticking out.

Actually, at this time it wasn't really covered with paper.

There are pictures.

It is metal like debris... and pieces of people.

NSFL NSFW

I hate linking this, but it is necessary to illustrate the discussion of how the passport was found. (NSFW NSFL just generally makes me feel bad)

NSFL NSFW

It's weird though... This photo ALSO shows cars on fire which would explain why many witnesses said there were "car bombs" going off?

I would guess flaming debris from a plane crash might cause a few car fires. Considering every space in New York that isn't a building is likely a car.

the whole building wasnt on fire. there will obviously be some papers.

The disconnect is that a man whos passport was on his person, right in the middle of the supposed explosions and burnings, was found and was legible.

meanwhile the blackbox, a peice of equipment designed for such instances, disappeared

Passports look quite different to sheets of white paper though.

You find a passport in the street, your first conclusion is that it fell from the skies?

Have you done any blood sacrifices recently?

Have you done any blood sacrifices recently?

What the fuck is wrong with you?

Actually lots of weird stuff survives plane crashes that you wouldn't expect. The whole thing could slam into the ground, and you'd still see sheets of paper completely untouched floating around the site. It's not beyond the realms of possibility.

It happened several times- there were at least two passports found immediately after 9/11.

and not a single black box.

Or a plane amirite?

No NTSB investigations either, weird huh?

Yeah, the circumstances and timings were amazing. Wasn't one FBI guy just "out for a jog" when he found one?

No idea about the terrorists prior to 9/11.

4 days later, full list of every one involved.

Within hours - "Bin Laden!"

Yep. Seven of those guys are magically still alive, at least, and their main "proof" was Atta's "misplaced" bag that miraculously didn't make it onto the suicided plane and had the names on it. Case close to them, apparently.

Other people using the same names are still alive, you mean.

Luckily none of the terrorists were called John Smith, or you'd be really confused!

Well they kinda used their real names when buying tickets...

and had apts, cars, and a paper trail a mile long...

They never attempted to hide their name at all. Why would they? They're dead.

Actually many of the 'hijackers' named by the FBI are still alive. Ever heard the term 'an orgy of evidence'?

Amongst tons and tons and tons of office paper, mind you.

Yes THE passport which linked mohammed atta...

Exactly, what are the odds?

Uh, no... the name on the passport is Satam Al Suqami

sad that this got 5 upvotes.. doesn't anyone check anymore?

True, but it was still one of the 19 hijackers

When the hivemind disagrees, you have to provide a link. No one is steering this thing, except shills and teenagers, so it really is up to you, patriot.

Are you the commentor reddit needs, or the one it deserves?

Not to mention that Mohammed Atta's luggage never made it onto the flight, and it was apparently the only luggage that didn't get loaded onto that flight. It coincidentally contained damning evidence of al-Qaeda's involvement and Atta's Will and confession.

My question: If you're a terrorist and your plan is to hijack a plane to suicide crash it into a building, why would you need to check your luggage to make sure it was on that plane with you, especially if you had your Will inside?

http://www.globalresearch.ca/9-11-contradictions-mohamed-atta-s-mitsubishi-and-his-luggage/8937

If I were a 9 dollar an hour screener,

I'd be less suspicious of a man who was bringing his will along with him. It is unlikely to be read if it is in a burning wreckage of a plane.

They found the passport but missed the landing gear on the roof for 12 years lol

might have well sprinkled a little crack on it....

They found that passport REALLY DAMN FAST -- yet they took 12 YEARS to locate an entire piece of one of the planes that hit WTC

I presume, that had the evidence NOT been shipped off to China ASAP - and an ACTUAL NTSB FAA investigation had taken place (like in every other crash) they would have known this part was missing from the plane rebuild.

So what? Lots of debris survived the fires. The fires didn't disintegrate everything.

It was ejected. It wasn't found in the burning rubble.

Just the passport was ejected?

What do you mean? There were all kinds of things ejected and found on surrounding streets including an engine, body parts, papers, luggage, etc.

A shame your father ejected.

The passport makes sense, too, considering they were at the front of the plane ahead of the explosion, and they would be among the few passengers expected to have a passport. Since they were foreigners, they couldn't get through security with just a driver's license like everyone else.

Ejected by what, the plane crashing into the building and creating a huge fireball that brought down one of the largest steel buildings in the world for the first and only time?

Or ejected by the hot air escaping your punctured world-view when confronted with an epic logic burn?

"Epic logic burn"? Are you 15 yrs old?

I'm not even on your lawn, old man. Are you 65? The Medicare thread is over there ->

Sorry, it was just such an "epically" stupid thing to say that it jumped out at me.

That's what I'm paid to do.

It was found in the airplane debris before the tower collapsed... along with a bunch of things... plane parts... seats cushions... pieces of people... mail from the plane

plane parts... seats cushions... pieces of people... mail from the plane

Plane parts. The plane broke apart, no? As in, an extremely durable thing that holds hundreds of people entrusting their lives in its ability to take them through the air at hundreds of miles per hour across the country/planet? But the passport was all fine and dandy, no?

Seat cushions? You mean durable things that hold multi-hundred pound apes in comfort? That broke off from the thing in which they entrusted their lives?

Pieces of people? I'm pretty sure every part of me is far more durable than paper. Preeeeeetty sure. Finding a readable passport in the debris would be like finding a dude that survived the crash and walked away from it without needing to go to the hospital.

Mail from the plane? Ok, now we're on to something. Very comparable. Fully intact mail that could conceivably be delivered? That weren't in a protective bag?

Like who would be carrying a terrorist passport? Like the terrorist right? And conceivably he was flying the plane into the big large ass building right? So that means he was in front of the plane right? And the plane was moving like 500mph, so conceivably the terrorist who is now in several thousand pieces was ahead of the big explosion that would have taken place in the wings right? because the fuel is in the wings. Correct? So things could have gone right through the building (with the tower being mostly air after all with its spacious floor plans)ahead of the explosion would have ended up on the street right?

Silly.

Wow. Who's reaching now? I've never heard such speculation and theorizing. Even in /r/conspiracy...

you mean these passports?

I don't see the connection you are trying to imply here.

How does the CIA issuing visas in the late 80s have anything to do with the Jeddah Saudi Arabia issuing visas a year leading up to 2001?

I don't see the connection that you are trying to imply.

CIA may have issued visas in 1987-1989 in Jeddah, so they could have issued visas in 2000 in Jeddah?

I don't see any evidence that the CIA had anything to do with the issue of the passports to any terrorist. It is just trying to imply some silly loose connection between two separate events 12+ years apart.

Just Michael Springman who says the CIA may have issued visas in the 80s for Afganistan militants for training in the US for the Afgan/Soviet war.

Are you reaching or what?

I'm pretty sure that Springman is on record saying that HE was the one who issued passports to 9 or 10? I think, of the highjackers, AND that he wouldn't have issued them due to security concerns, but someone higher up intervened and forced him to.

Nope, he worked in Jeddah from 1987-1989

Ah it appears you are correct...

Springman learned from contacts within the government that the American Consulate in Jeddah was one of several conduits to the United States of young Moslem men who were destined to be trained at American military basses in hit and run operations and terrorist tactics, and then sent off to Afghanistan to employ their newly acquired skills against Soviet troops there.

The value of Springman's testimony is showing how passports are issued on National Security grounds for questionable characters who may in the end be terrorists, or involved in a plot conducted by the CIA.

Several weeks after the 9/11 attacks it was reported in the press that of the nineteen hijackers who commandeered aircraft on the morning of September 11, 2001, fifteen had obtained their visas at the American Consulate in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia.12 Springman was surprised to read this. He had thought that the CIA operation in Jeddah had been closed down long before the 9/11 attacks, considering he, "had complained to the diplomatic security in Washington…had complained to the General Accounting Office…had complained to the State Department Inspector General's office, and…had complained to the Bureau of Consular Affairs at the State Department."13 It would seem that Langley takes little notice of storm warnings emanating from Foggy Bottom.

Interestingly enough, in November 2001 an Yemeni citizen who worked at the Jeddah Consulate was arrested in Las Vegas for providing fraudulent visas to foreigners.14 He was in America accompanying a trade delegation from the Mideast. Well, does "trade delegation" ring any bells? It should. Remember the two Pakistanis who said they were part of a Commerce Department-sponsored trade mission, but couldn’t remember the name of the trade show they were going to, nor the location of the city it was to take place in?

So you have nothing but a loose connection, which I said from the beginning... There is no evidence that the CIA issued any terrorist passports beyond someone who wasn't there speculation.

Dude, do you even conspiracy? That's what we do here.

foreign policy doesn't change unless the leadership does.

Well I'd like to see actual evidence, not implied evidence based on a loose connection

but you are saying that if i were to find stronger evidence that your perception could be swayed, yes?

Actually, in a crash, a tiny item like a passport is far more "durable" than you are.

Throw a passport out a high-rise window. Throw you out a high-rise window. Which one will be relatively undamaged after it hits the ground?

Be right back. I have to test whether me or my passport better survives being thrown out of a high-rise window. I'm going to prove you wrong yet!

I have to upvote you for tenacity, at least!

Edit: The Official List, Edited, Formatted and Expanded is up here most sections are expanded

• A tape made by FAA officials who dealt with hijacked aircraft describing the event was destroyed by a supervisor without a transcript being made

• "On Sept. 10, NEWSWEEK has learned, a group of top Pentagon officials suddenly canceled travel plans for the next morning, apparently because of security concerns."

• Regarding suspicious financial transactions, from Reuters: Convar has recovered information from 32 computers that support assumptions of dirty doomsday dealings.

• Some hijackers trained at secure military facilities

• Zbigniew Brzezinski claimed in his book The Grand Chessboard that central asia was the key to maintaining world power

• FBI officer sent a memo to superior in which he stated "that he has observed large numbers of Middle Eastern males receiving flight training at Oklahoma airports in recent months", no action was taken

• Operation Able Danger identified Atta and 3 other hijackers in the year 2000, the 9/11 commission would deny it until enough evidence was provided to prove it

"$43 million to the Taliban rulers of Afghanistan, the most virulent anti-American violators of human rights in the world today. The gift, announced last Thursday by Secretary of State Colin Powell, in addition to other recent aid, makes the U.S. the main sponsor of the Taliban and rewards that "rogue regime" for declaring that opium growing is against the will of God." - Los Angeles Times

WTF why haven't I heard of this?

• Larry Silverstein finalizes WTC lease less than 2 months before the attacks.. He collected 3.5 billion and has sued for more including airline companies for responsibility

• 4 war games were in process during the attacks

• the National Reconaissance Office " was planning an exercise last Sept. 11 in which an errant aircraft would crash into one of its buildings." (Published in 2002)

Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney in 2005 at a Congressional Hearing: "Mr. Secretary: according to the Comptroller General of the United States, there are serious financial management problems at the Pentagon, to which Mr. Cooper alluded.

Fiscal Year 1999: $2.3 trillion missing.

Fiscal Year 2000, $1.1 trillion missing.

And DoD is the number one reason why the government can't balance its checkbook."

The FBI is unable to obtain any useful data from 2 black boxes found from the crashed airline, other 2 were not found.

"It's extremely rare that we don't get the recorders back. I can't recall another domestic case in which we did not recover the recorders,"- NTSB spokesman Ted Lopatkiewicz

The black boxes didn't make it, but the terrorists' passports did? You'd have to be fucking retarded to believe that's what actually happened. Wouldn't be surprised to find out those planes weren't equipped with black boxes. Makes it easier to hide a crime when the evidence never existed in the first place.

I've been a "truther" for a long time, and this thread has been a real eye opener to just how much there is to disprove the "official" story. It's amazing how blind people are.

I can't recall another domestic case in which we did not recover the recorders

Do they get a lot of cases where thousands of tons of rubble are dropped on them them? I doubt it.

the National Reconaissance Office " was planning an exercise last Sept. 11 in which an errant aircraft would crash into one of its buildings."

*due to mechanical failure

that never happened... because it was canceled... and most of the people went home early... because of the attack... and what does spy satellites have to do with 9/11 anyway?

and what does spy satellites have to do with 9/11 anyway?

Possible method of remote control signal source.

Stable platform to project volumetric holographic coverage over top of missiles launched from undersea submarines, durr.

I said nothing of the sort.... didn't even insinuate.... talk about jumping to conclusions.... durr.

This conversation topic is literally older than half of the people responding to it. The other half are provable shills and please explain to me how millions of rational adults across the world and for a decade can look at the same evidence and historical event and each come to a different conclusion?

Here's your conspiracy: The average person is stupid, so half of all people are mathematically stupider than that. Combine this with free speech and you can see why there is a problem fundamental to the situation. And the same thing applies to democracy, because they have the right to vote, as well.

The real question should be "Do people have a right to be stupid?"

So, just to be clear; which side are you saying is stupid? The side that believes the official story? Or the side that promotes the conspiracy theory?

Both sides. Arguing on the Internet has long been established to be equivalent to competing in the special Olympics.

I'm gonna need more sources from this one. And it doesn't say anything about Los Angeles Times.

EDIT: I found the cnn.archive article about it and while we all know what CNN is, hat article said atleast $28 million of it was IN wheat. Not money, it was actual food. It also said the aid bypassed the Taliban.

Again, we all know what CNNis, but I just want more proof that the article you linked wasn't blatant misinterpretation.

• BBC Reported Building 7 Collapse 20 Minutes Before It Fell

• FBI finding the highjackers passports several blocks away from the WTC, surving the impact of the plane crash.

• Dr. Steve Pieczenik admits 9/11 was a false flag operation.

• Operation Northwoods

• 9/11 Drill goes live

• Al Qaeda Leader Dined at the Pentagon Just Months After 9/11

If you don't mind, i would like in the end copy the complete list in the /r/conspiracy/wiki.

Steve Pieczenik is a highly trained and connected CIA Shrink/spook who worked under 6 administrations in the state department (directly for Kissinger and Baker). He's a psyops expert and is always confirming terrorist events as intelligence operations and false flags and he seems to constantly be pushing the idea of military coup in the US.

He's a dangerous guy and while he knows what he's talking about, I'd be very skeptical of anything he has to say.

"On Sept. 10, NEWSWEEK has learned, a group of top Pentagon officials suddenly canceled travel plans for the next morning, apparently because of security concerns."[2]

Fuck those people. They knew there was an attack underway and they let thousands of people die.

Edit: The Official List, Edited, Formatted and Expanded is up here* most sections are expanded

NORAD scrambled jets 67 times between September 2000 and June 2001

When the Lear jet of golfer Payne Stewart didn't respond in 1999, F-16 interceptors were quickly dispatched within 20 minutes

Flight 11 crashed into the north tower 26 minutes after controllers lost contact

Flight 175 crashes into the south WTC tower 23 minutes after NORAD was notified, 43 minutes after air traffic control lost contact with pilots

Flight 77 crashes into the Pentagon 42 minutes or more after contact was lost, one hour after NORAD notification of first hijacking

Wiki timeline of events

On 9/11 it took three minutes for NORAD to put fighters on alert.

Payne Stewart's Jet took an hour and 20 minutes to intercept. The original article missed the time zone difference.

Flight 175 crashed about a minute after flight controllers notified NORAD that it was hijacked. How were they supposed to look for a plane that they didn't even know was hijacked?

Flight 77 crashed before the FAA notified NORAD that it was hijacked. So how were they supposed look for a plane that they didn't know was hijacked?

Flight 175 crashed about a minute after flight controllers notified NORAD that it was hijacked. How were they supposed to look for a plane that they didn't even know was hijacked?

NORAD should have been notified much sooner. They should have had jets scrambled as soon as the first jet was hijacked.

Flight 77 crashed before the FAA notified NORAD that it was hijacked. So how were they supposed look for a plane that they didn't know was hijacked?

It flew over 2 major airports before it got to the pentagon.

They did scramble planes. Right away. The problem was how do you find one flight among 5000? That was the problem they had.

You still haven't answered my question, how were they supposed to find a plane that they didn't even know was hijacked? They can't read minds of the controllers and pilots. It isn't a video game where hijacked plane appears on your screen the second it happens. Someone has to tell you there is a problem before you can solve it.

The controller was in the process of contacting/determining if it was hijacked when flight 77 crashed

I'm noticing a fundamental problem with all your questions. You kind have to know the "official story" before you can really question the pieces of it.

They did scramble planes. Right away. The problem was how do you find one flight among 5000?

Not only was the military well prepared for this scenario, (scrambles are ordered all the time, and practised often) but they were practicing this very scenario on the morning.

What slowed them down was not picking out the correct aircraft, waiting for removal of training 'blips' (fake radar contacts) was what slowed the appearance of the training aircraft.

The actual aircraft meant for interception on the east coast (6 of them?) were not scrambled in a timely manner.

but they were practicing this very scenario on the morning.

No they weren't. They were doing a wargame involving a Russian bomber over Alaska.

What slowed them down was not picking out the correct aircraft, waiting for removal of training 'blips' (fake radar contacts) was what slowed the appearance of the training aircraft.

No, it didn't. In fact, it took them three minutes to put planes on alert. You can find it on the NORAD audio tapes at the NYtimes.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/09/08/nyregion/911-tapes.html?_r=0

No they weren't. They were doing a wargame involving a Russian bomber over Alaska.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002-08-22-sept-11-plane-drill-_x.htm

"Officials at the Chantilly, Va.-based National Reconnaissance Office had scheduled an exercise that morning in which a small corporate jet would crash into one of the four towers at the agency's headquarters building after experiencing a mechanical failure.

The agency is about four miles from the runways of Washington Dulles International Airport. "

The NRO is a completely different building thousands of miles away completely unrelated to NORAD.

a drill that was scheduled... that never happened... because it was canceled... and most of the people went home early... because of the attack... and what does spy satellites have to do with 9/11 anyway?

It was a glorified fire drill that had more to do with being in the path of an airport, than a terrorism drill. The drill was a plane that crashed into their building due to mechanical failure. That is the part conspiracy theorists leave out.

According to NRO spokesman Art Haubold, the exercise will be called off “as soon as real world events began to unfold.” However, he does not give a specific time. All but the NRO’s most essential employees will then be sent home.

http://www.upi.com/Security_Industry/2002/08/22/US-agencys-strange-9ll-coincidence/UPI-70461030045607/

devil is in the details.

Don't change words in quote. I actually read sources. From your source:

"The exercise was called off "as soon as real world events began to unfold," Haubold told United Press International on Thursday. All but the most essential employees were sent home.

Not "will" was.

And like I said, it doesn't even matter anyway because it was completely unrelated to 9/11 anyway.

From your source:

"It was just a coincidence. It wasn't an anti-terrorism exercise. It was an emergency response exercise. It was just a strange coincidence," said Art Haubold, NRO spokesman.

A glorified fire drill because they were in the path of an airport.

Those same tapes show the intercepters were sent out over the Atlantic Ocean before they turned around and vectored to target. Part of the reason they intercepted so late. They were not given an immediate vector to the hijacked aircraft. Whether this is due to incompetence, obstruction, or otherwise is up for debate.

They intercepted so late is no one knew where the hijacked plane was going.

It was camouflaged in normal air traffic. The controllers had to relay the information where flight 11 was, while it was moving really fast, to NORAD people, and then the NORAD people had to tell the fighters where to go. This was the critical breakdown because hijacking at the time were seen as "peaceful" events. They would land, and there would be a hostage situation, etc. Not determined suicide weapon attacks on buildings. They thought they had time.

So NORAD responded very quickly, the problem was the breakdown of communication between, controllers, FAA, NORAD and the fighters.

Also keep in mind that commercial aircraft use transponders to actively tell the traffic controllers on the ground who and where they are. The hijackers turned off the transponders, so the interceptors would have had to rely on radar to find the planes. Just to illustrate how many planes are in the sky at any given time, check out the following:

http://www.flightradar24.com/

Finding the hijacked plane in all of that traffic is like looking for a needle in a stack of needles.

Pilot here.

NORAD can see ANY and ALL aircraft in the sky just fine, thank you, without the plane squwaking normally OR ident.

In fact, having the transponders off makes their job EASIER if anything...because then they're just looking for planes NOT squawking.

As others have pointed out they have to actually be looking for it. When the transponders went off, there was initially no thought that the planes were being hijacked with the intent of flying them into buildings.

There was a lot of confusion on that day. Combine that with the fog of war environment and it is not at all unreasonable that there were conflicting orders and conflicting information coming in, resulting in the planes not being intercepted before they hit the buildings.

true dat

Agreed there was a serious breakdown specifically between NORAD and the FAA, suspicious no?

I'd like to think it was due more to over-confidence and unpreparedness.

I really don't think so... they practice all the time, so I don't think you can chalk it up to being unprepared, besides, this is the US military we are talking about here, they have contingency plans for zombies, which they practice for goodness sake!

Check this: http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=a90regularscrambles

Also:

"According to a statement from NORAD, 'Before September 11th, 01, NORAD regularly conducted a variety of exercises that included hijack scenarios. These exercises tested track detection and identification; scramble and interception; hijack procedures; internal and external agency coordination and operational security and communications security procedures..... At the NORAD headquarters' level we normally conducted four major exercises a year, most of which included a hijack scenario.'" NORAD exercise had jet crashing into building CNN, 19 April 2004

They launched the alert planes within three minutes of being contacted.

So if you want to argue that the war games delayed response by three minutes, be my guest.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/09/08/nyregion/911-tapes.html click on "Real world or exercise"

Could you please tell me the amount of time that passed between launch and intercept?

8:34 Boston contacts NORAD about Flight 11 being hijacked

8:37 NORAD puts fighters on alert

8:47 Flight 11 hits north tower; Fighters just taking off... fighter parked off long island because they are unsure where Flight 11 is

9:01 NY Controllers notice Flight 175 is off course

9:03 NY Controllers call NORAD to tell them about 175

9:03 Flight 175 crashes into the south tower

9:15 Controllers in Washington are told flight 77 is missing by Indianapolis

9:32 DC Controllers call NORAD and tell them Flight 77 is missing

9:37 Flight 77 crashes into Pentagon

9:28 Cleavland loses contact with Flight 93

9:43 Herndon (VA) controller calls the FAA and tells them United 93 is not responding and is off course

10:00 A pilot sees Flight 93 rocking its wings reports it

10:03 Flight 93 crashes

10:14 Controllers call NORAD and tell Flight 93 is down

It is all on tape here:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/09/08/nyregion/911-tapes.html

I'd like to think that you are forgetting about PTech--the Israeli software company that wrote code for the FAA computers making it IMPOSSIBLE to tell RW from exercise.

NORAD computers... and the problem is there was a total of three minutes to where they went from exercise to real world. It wasn't a software problem, it was a communication problem. If you examine the tapes of what NORAD knew when, there was no time to stop it.

The whole PTech Israeli BS came out before the NORAD tapes were released and showed that there was no delay from any software.

So go post your Israelis did 9/11 BS to stormfront or somewhere. I am now taking a screenshot of this conversation "documenting" the event.

My guess is that since the radars the air traffic control towers use also say what the call signor whatever of the plane is, the fighters could use if not the same technology, then visual since the same letter/number combination is usually on the tail at least.

As for the one plane in 5000, did they ground all or did they not let them land? The Pentagon one does seem weird since it went such a large distance, it seems that one would've been a little easier to intercept.

The radars in any major "center" show the "blips" (planes) with markings next to them indicating flight, vector, and altitude. This information is tied to the plane's transponder, which can "squawk" any 4-digit number. Before you take off you are given a number by ATC to squawk so they know who you are. If they ask you to "squawk ident" you basically push a button marked "IDENT" on your transponder, which makes your blip "bloom" on the 'scope.

Just letting you know how its done...cheers.

They didn't ground all planes until after the third plane hit the Pentagon.

The fighters don't have the ability to pick out one plane from the rest. They have to be told by controllers which plane is which.

Good to know. Interesting they don't have their own little screen or something, you think that'd be useful for what they do.

Imagine you were a controller or a pilot on 9/11.

Now look at this screen and tell me how easy it would be to pick out the right plane.

You obviously don't know much about ATC.

NO one controller sees that many planes...EVER. They see what's in their "sector" which can be up to 20 planes at a go in a busy sector. Remember that each of these planes has an identifier, a vector, and an altitude. When a transponder is turned off the plane will "drop off" the scope for most civilian controllers...but military ATC uses far more powerful radar that will discern the aircraft even with the transponder off.

Therefore, on 9/11 it would have been as easy as to see what plane WAS NOT displaying this information. 99.999% of them would have been showing something.

if you listen to the NORAD tapes, you'll see that it was far from easy

He can't answer. You've taken him off script.

"Flight 77 crashed before the FAA notified NORAD that it was hijacked. So how were they supposed look for a plane that they didn't know was hijacked?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDfdOwt2v3Y

they had tracked 77 and knew it was heading towards a mark in DC.

wikipedia isnt as informative as people believe.

that wasn't flight 77, that was a "phantom" flight 11. In the confusion, it was falsly reported that flight 11 hadn't hit the north tower and was headed to washington. What they were tracking, is the time it was taking from its last known position (near NY) to washington at the speed it was going.

That is why the fighters launched from Langly were headed north, to intercept a flight that wasn't there. They weren't aware of Flight 77 coming in from the west of washington.

We have the benefit of hindsight.

no he was talking about flight 77.

http://www.9-11commission.gov/archive/hearing2/9-11Commission_Hearing_2003-05-23.htm

MR. MINETA: No, I was not. I was made aware of it during the time that the airplane coming into the Pentagon. There was a young man who had come in and said to the vice president, "The plane is 50 miles out. The plane is 30 miles out." And when it got down to, "The plane is 10 miles out," the young man also said to the vice president, "Do the orders still stand?" And the vice president turned and whipped his neck around and said, "Of course the orders still stand. Have you heard anything to the contrary?" Well, at the time I didn't know what all that meant. And --

MR. HAMILTON: The flight you're referring to is the --

MR. MINETA: The flight that came into the Pentagon.

MR. HAMILTON: The Pentagon, yeah.

see the issue with the story of 9-11 is you have to dig for factual info. it isn't handed to you on a silver platter, you have to work for it. how one labels the source of information will determine what story they believe.

http://www.historycommons.org/searchResults.jsp?searchtext=tracked+flight+77+in+pentagon&events=on&entities=on&articles=on&topics=on&timelines=on&projects=on&titles=on&descriptions=on&dosearch=on&search=Go

The fighters were tracking a phantom flight 11.

The problem is the explanation is far to long to place here of the whole Minetta saga.

This is a very long, but a very detailed with sources on why Minetta was incorrect during his testomony.

The reason none of this matters is because the tapes of NORAD show that they weren't aware of Flight 77 before it crashed.

truth doesn't matter, credibility does. 9-11 commission trumps wiki in credibility. in order to consider your position seriously I need more than wiki.

The NY times audio timeline with the actual recording good enough?

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/09/08/nyregion/911-tapes.html?_r=0

Click on 9:21

history can be revised at anytime, especially since information in this day and age is always in a state of flux. I have to go but I will examine the Ny times a bit further. But if you could find other sources that would be awesome.

[deleted]

sorry, I'm fresh out of credible INFOWARS.COM links

ID Tech But again, remember nothing has been confirmed as far as which aircraft have hit the World Trade Center, but the other one we have is information headed towards Washington. Washington Center O.K., now let me tell you this, I, we’ve been looking, we’ve also lost American 77. ID Tech American 77. Washington Center Excuse me? ID Tech Where was he proposed to head, sir? Dooley American 77. Dooley O.K., American 77’s lost.

they still were looking for 77 despite the unconfirmed report of the possibility of flight 11 heading towards DC. so that means if they had followed protocol Andrews air-force base planes would have been in the skies around DC region.

They were trying to intercept phantom flight 11 before it got to DC, that is why they were headed North East out of Washington.

Like I said though... as they are having this conversation Flight 77 is crashing into the Pentagon. The conversation starts at 9:32, it lasts for 3 minutes. The Pentagon is hit at 9:37.

what you posted does not support your theory. they did not try to intercept flight 11 because they just found out about the rumor (because it was unconfirmed) minutes before flight 77 hit the pentagon. they focused on 77. which was coming from the Indianapolis Indiana direction according to the very site you linked.

example "Washington Center O.K., now let me tell you this, I, we’ve been looking, we’ve also lost American 77." Washington center did not consider flight 11 as a possibility until it was reported 5 minutes before flight 77 crashed.

stop wasting time grasping at straws. 9-11 could have been prevented on many fronts. the same types that oversaw Iran -contra and was birthed out of the corrupt Nixon Administration. they got their "pearl harbor". they got their draconian patriot act which was drafted in 1997. they got their middle east war that they had planned in the PNAC documents. And now Obama continues this. Time will tell if the Bush doctrine creates a peaceful middle east (by getting rid of the trouble makers) or if it makes it worse.

Someone was tracking the Pentagon flight: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bDfdOwt2v3Y&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DbDfdOwt2v3Y

we were already having this conversation in this thread. read more.

Missed it in the 312+ comments. It is still valid info

Here is the short version: Minetta was wrong, he arrived after Flight 77 hit the Pentagon. He countdown you hear is from the phantom flight 11 that doesn't exist.

For sources and my explanation why it doesn't even matter, see the other conversation.

You are right. According to this article from 2002, Cheney authorized the shoot down of the Shanksville flight while military personnel were tracking it: fter the planes struck the twin towers, a third took a chunk out of the Pentagon. Cheney then heard a report that a plane over Pennsylvania was heading for Washington. A military assistant asked Cheney twice for authority to shoot it down. http://archives.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/09/11/ar911.king.cheney/ "The vice president said yes again," remembered Josh Bolton, deputy White House chief of staff. "And the aide then asked a third time. He said, 'Just confirming, sir, authority to engage?' And the vice president -- his voice got a little annoyed then -- said, 'I said yes.'"

the dancing israelis that were deported. don't forget that one.

google dr judy wood for shit your pants material on this subject.

The woman has done an amazing job of finding evidence. Just have a look through her website and you can add another 20 pages to this. haha

You should save this all in a google document and link it so that it is easier to read.

Also, try to be as charitable as you can to the other side -- research it as though you were going to try to prove that everything said was true and make their argument the best it possibly can, that is the only way to create a balanced and reasoned argument that will persuade people.

For example, there is a very detailed story of building 7 burning out from the inside out; try and prove that this is true - what evidence is there?

The Mystery of Ali Mohamed: alleged 9/11 hijacker "trainer" and Al Qaeda lieutenant, prosecuted & convicted & never sentenced for the Kenya Embassy bombing -- entered the U.S. on a CIA waiver in the 1980s, became an FBI informant, became a staff sergeant at Ft. Bragg where he trained Mujahadeen, was let go by Fed Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald who later refused to indict Rove & Cheney for outing Valerie Plame

The Coincidence Theorist's Guide to 9/11

Personally, I'm sick of the conspiracy theory emphasis on WTC.

Look at the fucking TRAIL OF MONEY and put options and the Bush Administration's shut-down of Operation Green Quest, the investigation into terrorist financing. WHO shuts down an investigation into terrorist financing except a terrorist?

Al Capone wasn't convicted using evidence of his organized crime. Does anyone remember?

Also, if anyone thinks they're a 9/11 researcher and they don't know about HistoryCommons.org Complete 9/11 Timeline, then you're not a serious researcher yet.

http://www.historycommons.org/project.jsp?project=911_project

http://www.historycommons.org/project.jsp?project=911_project

http://www.historycommons.org/project.jsp?project=911_project

Edit: The Official List, Edited, Formatted and Expanded is up here most sections are expanded

The history of Bin Laden leading up to 9/11

• "Bin Laden was, though, a product of a monumental miscalculation by western security agencies. Throughout the 80s he was armed by the CIA and funded by the Saudis to wage jihad against the Russian occupation of Afghanistan. Al-Qaida, literally "the database", was originally the computer file of the thousands of mujahideen who were recruited and trained with help from the CIA to defeat the Russians. Inexplicably, and with disastrous consequences, it never appears to have occurred to Washington that once Russia was out of the way, Bin Laden's organisation would turn its attention to the west." - Robin Cook, former UK Foreign Secretary

• The CIA created and armed the Mujahideen with 7.5 billion in 1979 and the Saudis matched them dollar for dollar

• Bin Ladens MAK, precursor to Al Qaeda, received funding from the ISI (which received funding from the CIA)

• Bin Ladens tunnel complex, which he would later use after 9/11, was financed by the CIA

• "The Sudanese security services, he said, would happily keep close watch on bin Laden for the United States. But if that would not suffice, the government was prepared to place him in custody and hand him over, though to whom was ambiguous. In one formulation, Erwa said Sudan would consider any legitimate proffer of criminal charges against the accused terrorist." Their negotiations concluded as such: ""We said he will go to Afghanistan, and they [US officials!] said, 'Let him.'"- Washington Post 2001

• Clinton declined to charge bin laden with a crime in 94 even though he had been clearly linked to the WTC bombings.

• MI6 paid large sums to al qaeda in Libya to assassinate gadhaffi in 96. Gadaffi issued an INTERPOL arrest warrant for bin Laden in 98, US and UK downplayed it, likely because they had recently funded the libya cell. 5 months later, al qaeda bombed US embassies in Tanzania and Kenya

• Al Qaeda and the US fought on the same side of the war in Kosovo and Bosnia. They recently repeated the process with Libya and Syria

• According to the official story, bin Laden turned against the US after they occupied military bases in Saudi Arabia. This doesnt make sense, because: Scott Armstrong, at the time the top investigative reporter for the Washington Post, stated that the United States and Saudi Arabia had jointly conspired to covertly build $200 billion worth of military installations between the years 1979 and 1992. Steve Coll, eminent Bin Laden biographer, states that the Binladen group received a multitude of these contracts, with the knowing intent to support to house US military personal during wars that may threaten Saudi territory. This was occuring at the same time that Osama was tight with his family and using Binladen group assets to build bases in Afghanistan. Of course he was aware of the business dealings between the company.

• Prince Bandar bin Sultan of Saudi Arabia, on Larry King Live: "In the mid-'80s, if you remember, we and the United - Saudi Arabia and the United States were supporting the Mujahideen to liberate Afghanistan from the Soviets. He [Osama bin Laden] came to thank me for my efforts to bring the Americans, our friends, to help us against the atheists, he said the communists. Isn't it ironic?"

and then there is the fascinating story of Egyptian Ali Muhammed, only tangentially related but thoroughly interesting nonetheless.

He was a part of the fundamentalist military unit that assassinated Egyptian President Anwar Sadat in 1981. In 1984, he was hired by the CIA, though they claim that their relationship was short-lived. He would soon join the military and become a member of the Green Berets, and serve as a drill sergeant at Fort Bragg while providing clandestine training to jihadists such as Mahmud Abaouhalima, convicted perpetrator of the 1993 World Trade Center bombings.

He would take a short leave from his military duties and travel to Afghanistan in 1988 to assist the Mujahideen, returning just months later.

In the early 1990's he would return to Afghanistan and began training jihadists with the skills he had learned at Fort Bragg. According to former FBI special agent Jack Cloonan, in an interview with PBS, his first training session included Osama bin Laden, as well as Ayman al-Zawahiri, the current leader of Al Qaeda.

Former Directors of Counter-terrorism at the National Security Council have alleged that Muhammed took maps and training materials from Fort Bragg and used them to write the Al Qaeda terrorist training manual.

His superior at Fort Bragg, Lt. Col. Robert Anderson, has stated that “I think you or I would have a better chance of winning the Powerball lottery, than an Egyptian major in the unit that assassinated Sadat would have getting a visa, getting to California, getting into the Army and getting assigned to a Special Forces unit. That just doesn’t happen.”

Elsewhere he stated that "It was unthinkable that an ordinary American GI would go unpunished after fighting in a foreign war," and that he assumed that Muhammed was sponsored by the CIA.

There is a really good BBC documentary called the Power of Nightmares (I think)- that sadly isn't available online anymore as far as I know-- in which they essentially show that Al Qaeda as an organization does not even exist. It was basically made up by the CIA.

No, it indicates the threat of al Qaeda as an organisation wasn't significant at that time, not that they didn't exist.

No, it quite emphatically said that there was no such organization...there were some loosely affiliated people, but nothing resembling any sort of central organization.

• "Five of the alleged hijackers have emerged, alive, innocent and astonished to see their names and photographs appearing on satellite television. ... The hijackers were using stolen identities, and investigators are studying the possibility that the entire suicide squad consisted of impostors."- London Times, 2001

• BUT THE 9/11 COMMISSION DOESNT EVEN ADDRESS IT AND USES THE NAMES OF THE FAKE IDENTITIES! - see here chapter 7 of the commission, vs article linked above

• FEMA removed the steel from building 7 immediately, even though it ought to have been studied, seeing it was the first skyscraper to ever have collapsed due to steel fires

• the world trade center buildings were designed to withstand attacks from the very planes that hit them

• Silverstein Properties had planned to meet on September 11 on the 88th floor of one of the towers to "discuss what to do in the event of a terrorist attack," but canceled the meeting late on September 10 "because one participant could not attend." -NYT

• FBI says it has “No hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11”

• ‘USS Liberty’, ‘Gulf of Tonkin’, ‘Operation Northwoods’, 'Operation Gladio'

• Bush waited 441 days before starting the 9/11 commission

• 9/11 commission was $15 mil, Lewinsky scandal was given 60 mil

• Ron Paul and other insiders have claimed the Patriot Act was drafted before 9/11. Regardless, Joe Biden claims his 1995 bill was the basis of the Patriot Act and it was passed less than 2 months after 9/11

• Conspiracists (can I coin a new term conspiratorian?) Alex Jones and William Cooper both predicted 9/11

FBI says it has “No hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11

That says it all right there. The knowledge of the existence of WMDs was a lie and Bin Laden was not linked to 9/11 by the FBI, so we have absolutely no excuse for being at war in Iraq or Afghanistan except to fucking land grab.

I think THE most Obvious thing would be....

In probably every third world country, a commercial plane flying off route and with no communication with air traffic control would be intercepted within minutes.

USA's (israel's) 911= best air traffic control, radars and fighter jets in the world yet 3 or 4 planes went off route for how long ???

Terrorism drill on the same day, like in sandy hook, boston m, etc etc

How many planes were in the air in that corridor at that time? How many in any given "third world country"? A 100th?

The planes turned off their transponders. They were lost in the clutter of 100's of planes.

Look, go in circles all you want. If they wanted to take them down, they would have.

[deleted]

maybe not "probably every", but Im sure in most.

If they wanted to stop it, they would have taken all 3 or 4 planes down in less than 5 min lol

Ewolv

All of these need to be verified:

• You missed that Larry Silverstein took out a 99 year insurance policy, covering terrorism, 6 weeks before the attack.
• That the steel girders in each building were covered in a hazardous, but fire retardant material, asbestos. A material that would have cost a lot of money to replace - which is a legal obligation.
• That passengers on flight 93 managed to make cell calls even though they were not in range with a cell transmitter - cell transmitters were not introduced into America flights until a year or two later. This makes calls impossible due to the cellular nature of cell phones - they are not long range transmitters - they are short range and require transmitters every few hundred meters.
• http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucGCs0hl9S8
• That aircraft carriers were already stationed in the Caspian Sea months before the justification for war.
• That the Patriot Act was drawn up 20 years previous to the attacks but it sat in the proverbial drawer until proper justification could be made - couple this with the PNAC statement that a "new Perl Harbour would be needed" to further America's domination.
• That the architect of the twin towers stated that those buildings were designed to take a hit from a large airliner.
• That a B32 bomber hit the Empire State Building in the 40's but yet it still stands.
• That just two days before Rumsfeld admitted that $1tn of the US budget could not be accounted for.
• That building 7 actually contained case files on hundred of corruption cases from people on wall street being investigated by the FBI.
• That building 7 had some greater purpose with the alphabet soup agencies - not sure which but I know the FBI held case files there.

[deleted]

Thanks. This is what sharing is all about.

That the architect of the twin towers stated that those buildings were designed to take a hit from a large airliner. That a B32 bomber hit the Empire State Building in the 40's but yet it still stands.

Just to clarify on these two points: the engineer architect was referring to low flying, slow moving aircraft that were lost in the fog on their way to/from an airport. Also, at the time the towers were built, 747s didn't exist.

The case of the B-25 colliding with the Empire State Building was at a much slower speed and was not a direct head-on collision. Also a B-25 weighs significantly less than a 747. (Maximum of under 50k lbs vs maximum of close to 1M lbs.)

A snippet from shill-site http://www.911myths.com/html/empire_state_b-25.html

These two situations aren't entirely comparable.

The maximum weight of a B-25 ranged from 27,100 lb to a limit of 41,800 lb, for instance (see www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/URG/b25mitchell.html). A 767-200 ranges from 179,080 lbs (empty) to 395,000 lb (maximum takeoff load) (www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/jetliner/b767), and FEMA said the 9/11 planes had “an estimated gross weight of 274000 pounds" ( http://www.fema.gov/pdf/library/fema403_ch1.pdf ).

Fortunately, the WTC was designed for a 707

Boeing: 707 Advanced 707-320B;

Wingspan : 145 feet 9 inches (44.42 m)

Length : 152 feet 11 inches (46.6 m)

Wing Area : 3,010 square feet (280 m 2)

Gross Weight : 336,000 pounds

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/707family/product.html

“Leslie Robertson, one of the two original structural engineers for the World Trade Center, is asked at a conference in Frankfurt, Germany what he had done to protect the twin towers from terrorist attacks. He replies, ‘I designed it for a 707 to smash into it,’ though does not elaborate further.”[6]

[Leslie Robertson:] “The twin towers were in fact the first structures outside the military and nuclear industries designed to resist the impact of a jet airplane.”[7]

[Frank A. Demartini:] “The building was designed to have a fully loaded 707 crash into it. That was the largest plane at the time. I believe that the building probably could sustain multiple impacts of jetliners because this structure is like the mosquito netting on your screen door -- this intense grid -- and the jet plane is just a pencil puncturing that screen netting. It really does nothing to the screen netting.” Frank A. Demartini, on-site construction manager for the World Trade Center, spoke of the resilience of the towers in an interview recorded on January 25, 2001.[8]

http://911blogger.com/node/6040

... and the building did withstand the impact of the fully loaded 767. It then fell down after having fires burn uncontrolled for some time in it.

In that youtube video of Rumsfeld "oopsing", watch the reaction of the two people in the background at ~0:16 seconds.

Is a B32 the same size/mass of a fully fueled 767? Do the both fly at over 500mph? Were the twin towers and ESB even remotely similar in terms of design, materials and construction?

Short answer: no, no, no.

Did I say that all of these need to be verified?

Short answer: shut up.

Oh I see. Just a bunch of spurious "facts" then. Don't try too hard. Consider this one verified but completely irrelevant then.

Oh, and Fuck you.

You could call them that yes - that was the implied meaning behind what I said... and it's spelt too*. Fuck you more.

You may get a more dignified response next time if you treat people with respect. I don't waste time on disrespectful people.

Yes. That's how I spelled it.

Good for you. Now fuck off and bother someone else.

Awww. So sowwy.

Apology accepted.

Goody.

Last word.

LoL. You win.

K.

I won't post again.

Able Danger - terrabytes destroyed
Phoenix memo
Moussaoui/Berg connection
WTC 93 FBI involvement

Able Danger - terrabytes destroyed

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Able_Danger#Able_Danger_data_destroyed

Phoenix memo

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Memo

Moussaoui/Berg connection

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/Northeast/05/13/berg.encounter/

WTC 93 FBI involvement

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcldy9GT8p4

You're my hero.

Keep fighting!

I think I'll use some of this compiling for a video.

please do and dont credit me I'm pulling much of it from 6 or 7 different compiled sources myself so its all fair game

But he should cite the original sources that you're citing. So we're not just showing "A Youtube video."

Can you tell me when the video is up or pm the link to it when it's finished? Really intrigued to see the video and show some people.

Sure! It's gonna be fun. In a few days.

• Over 1000 bodies are unaccounted for!

• Cheney ran the government from an underground control room on 9/11 because the executive order by the President four months earlier had permitted Cheney to bypass the previous protocol.

• 15 of 19 hijackers were Saudi Arabian. The House of Saud and the Bush Family are deeply intimate business partners

• "The Able Danger intelligence, if confirmed, is undoubtedly the most relevant fact of the entire post-9/11 inquiry. Yet the 9/11 Commission inexplicably concluded that it "was not historically significant." This astounding conclusion--in combination with the failure to investigate Able Danger and incorporate it into its findings--raises serious challenges to the commission's credibility and, if the facts prove out, might just render the commission historically insignificant itself." -- [Former FBI Director Louis Freeh in the Wall Street Journal, 11/17/05]

• Able Danger Key Facts: The Pentagon "ordered five key witnesses not to testify", according to Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Arlen Specter

• According to statements by Lt. Col. Anthony Shaffer and those of four others, Able Danger had identified 2 of 3 Al Qaeda cells active in the 9/11 attacks... including September 11 attacks leader Mohamed Atta [wiki]

• Speaking on behalf of Lt. Col. Shaffer, attorney Mark Zaid testified "The copies that would have been in the possession of the U.S. Army were apparently destroyed by March 2001. The copies within Lt Col Shaffer's files were destroyed by the DIA in approximately Spring 2004." [wiki]

• 13 renowned microbiologists die in under 5 months, 12 due to suspicious circumstances- Globe and Mail 2002. All have exertise relating to bioterrorism. Maybe connected to the Anthrax revelations

• "If one looks at the map of the big American bases created for the war, one is struck by the fact that they are completely identical to the route of the projected oil pipeline to the Indian Ocean."- Chicago Tribune discussing oil politics and the Afghanistan war, 2002

• Opium production had almost stopped under Taliban, Afghanistan now accounts for 92% of worlds opium supply. Iran/Contra/Cocaine anyone?

• Airforce General Richard Meyers "The goal has never been to get bin Laden."- Interview with CNN

• "I truly am not that concerned about him."- George Bush in regards to bin Laden, 2002

• "We have not uncovered a single piece of paper that mentioned any aspect of the 9/11 plot. The hijackers had no computers, no laptops, no storage media of any kind."- FBI Director Robert Mueller, LA Times 2002

• "It is an obscene comparison - you know I am not sure I like it - but you know there was a time in South Africa that people would put flaming tyres around people's necks if they dissented. And in some ways the fear is that you will be necklaced here, you will have a flaming tyre of lack of patriotism put around your neck," he said. "Now it is that fear that keeps journalists from asking the toughest of the tough questions."- Dan Rather on the pressure for journalists to conform to the official story on 9/11, The Guardian 2002

• "I have deep concerns that a delicate and subtle shading/skewing of facts by you and others at the highest levels of FBI management has occurred and is occurring."- FBI agent Coleen Rowley in a memo to the Director. The memo linked goes in to lots of details

A recent analysis of the blackbox recordings released by the governments reveals that the doors to the cockpit were never opened. Either that or the government has released falsified data.

http://rockcreekfreepress.tumblr.com/post/285492999/flt77fdr

I think I read that this was not an actively monitored data point and that there was no sensor put in ever.

Pilot here.

There IS a sensor on the door to the flight deck. It is polled every three seconds on the 757-223 and the state of the cockpit door is written to memory.

Flight 77's FDR shows that, from the time the avionics were powered on until the time of impact, the flight deck door remained in the "closed" position...meaning that hijackers would have HAD to be in the cabin from the time shortly after the pilots sat down until impact with the Pentagon.

I believe the argument is that since that time it has become a monitored feature. Remember we're talking about 12 years ago, so your recent experience as a pilot might be quite different.

I am a firm believer in the conspiracy of 9/11, I just don't think this is the strongest argument.

Try some of these;

http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2004/08/coincidence-theorists-guide-to-911.html

thanks for doing this because i facepalmed pretty hard at that circlejerk yesterday where a poster in /r/changemyview got called out for having a debate about 9/11 with himself- copy+pasting his 'counter-argument' straight from the NIST report.

do work, to the front page gentlemen!

haha yes that thread was my motivation for putting this together

keep fighting the good fight!

Dick cheney and Bush both asked majority house leader not to investigate 9/11 on numerious occassions. - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pTt2cQvUww

Henry Kissenger was originally selected as the head of the 9/11 comission but was dropped before he had ties with the Bin Laden family.

I worked at the WTC temporarily a few times about a year before 9/11. There were contractors that had access everywhere in the building, I looked up when one was on a ladder and he was working directly on the steel joints of the building. These guys were everywhere in the building for months. Any visitor such as myself, had to be escorted at all times by an employee of the business we were visiting. These guys didn't look like any normal maintenance men to me, I had worked in many Manhattan highrises, and these weren't your typical joe shmoes. They were very professional and clean cut, like maintenance men I've never seen in any building, and they didn't like when I tried to see what they were doing. You need to find more eyewitnesses who worked there to corroborate my story. From what I was told, everyone knew of them, and they were there almost 24/7. I really can't believe I haven't heard of this from anyone anywhere before. No accents, clean cut, not exactly military types, but also not a regular handy man. From what I remember, they were private contractors. They had their own security badges and access everywhere. Employees that worked there only had badges and access to their own businesses. These guys would walk right through security without being checked because of their badges regularly with small to medium sized bags all the time, anyone else had to have their things checked. I don't necessarily believe in most theories behind 9/11, but I believe in asking questions.

This issue about how could they place thermite without anyone seeing all the activity was my initial dismissal of this as a possibility. I then learned that there were indeed a lot of workmen all over doing retrofits (which you back up here as well). I don't think anyone can say there wasn't opportunity.

Very interesting testimony.

$200 million was spent on WTC 7 "...cutting out floors, adding elevators, reinforcing steel girders, upgrading power supplies and making other improvements in its million square feet of space," in 1990.

Your story along with this is very interesting. Why would it be that hard to imagine that buildings as important as these wouldn't have some sort of self-destruct sequence in the even that some foreign power took over Manhattan, for example. There were extremely important documents in each of these buildings, probably worth more than the lives that were inhabiting them, at least to some power-hungry psychopath.

If you notice, Germany tried to withdraw all their gold from the Federal Reserve and were just recently denied. Some people say it isn't there because they sold it all. I heard a theory, that there was plenty of gold in the basement of the WTC or other buildings nearby, and someone pulled a Diehard 3 and pretended they were working crews and stole it all. But I've read a lot of crazy theories out there, it's just very interesting to think of the possibilities.

Marvin Bush's (George's brother) security company were guarding elevators in the the WTC during modernisation maintenance.

Here's a good ATS thread on that security company INCLUDING the pretty large coincidence that in both WTC buildings, the planes hit in the areas that were being "fireproofed". Also, the area of the pentagon that was hit by Flight 77 also was undergoing "construction".

Good work.

If there is anyone out there who has already done their fair share of research, i cannot recommend this book enough: Crossing the Rubicon. It's intense, and you're a better man than i am if you can take it all in on the first read, but it is without a doubt a must-read if you really want to understand this thing properly.

There is stuff in there that needs to be read by a lot of people, as it seems to me like people who think they have this whole thing figured out really haven't put the time in, especially the "it was the Israelis" crowd. This is a proper investigation: there is very little conjecture in the book, and everything is sourced.

Who does the book say was responsible? I agree "the israelis did it" falls short of the next few steps to who really ordered it. Were Israelis/Zionists involved? Obviously - but ceasing your investigation at that level is a mistake.

Various parties. If there was one guy that you could put in jail over all others, going by the evidence presented in the book: Dick Cheney. It's quite complicated to place real blame, as massive portions of it were obviously heavily compartmentalised, but there are a few specific names that come out as being the guys you'd want sat in orange jumpsuits in a courtroom. PNAC would be the group that you'd probably focus most attention on if you were looking for a group of people who would likely have actually discussed this between themselves. Ruppert called them a "government in waiting". And someone made sure they were "waiting", and not "hoping". But again, the blame doesn't stop there.

Yes, the Israelis (Mossad), had involvement, but as far as this book goes, the involvement was fairly minimal. From what i recall (i need to read it again at some point), the suspicion is that those agents inside the US were basically keeping an eye on the hijackers. I don't want to say any more than that, as my memory sucks and i'll probably get something wrong, but there was a motive for the surveillance - i'd have to go back to the book to give you any more details.

If you haven't already check out the free ebook "9/11--The Deception that Changed the World" by Chris Bollyn. It's available on his site <bollyn.com>.

Also very interesting--have you heard about the Gomel Chesed Cemetery incident? A Jewish man, months before 9/11, watched a meet-up in the cemetery while hiding. The people talked (in Hebrew) about how America would cave to Israeli demands "once the twins were destroyed in September."

He tried to alert the FBI (IIRC) three times and was dismissed as a crackpot.

There's free copies of the book online. Ruppert spends most of the book running through the evidence and keeping conjecture to himself. In the final chapter he gives a succint version of his opinion of what happened and who was running the show (spoiler alert: cheney et al + elements of other governments). Crossing the Rubicon is the most well researched book on this topic I have come across. His chapter on PROMIS software is more relevant now then when the book came out due to recent NSA drama.

scramble/distraction fuckery I never see mentioned...

http://newsminer.com/pages/full_story/push?blog-entry-Whitehorse+filmmaker-+retired+Anchorage+controller+offer+stunning+evidence+on+Sept-+11+Alaska+flight%20&amp;id=15462534&amp;instance=blogs_editors_desk

I had a long conversation today with Max Fraser, an independent documentary filmmaker in Whitehorse, that has left me stunned.

He has performed an impressive feat of investigatory work in the research for his documentary, "Never Happen Here: The Whitehorse 9/11 Story." ...

...As part of his research, Fraser has uncovered strong evidence that contradicts official claims and statements about what happened after a Korean Airlines 747 bound for Anchorage inexplicably sent out a text message saying it was hijacked.

No one has ever explained why the text message "HJK" was sent by the pilot. Fraser does not dispute that message. It remains unexplained. He said he was stonewalled by Korean Airlines, which refused to comment on the matter.

The text message was cited, in testimony to the Alaska Legislature in 2002 by Gen. Norton Schwartz, now the head of the U.S. Air Force, as the first sign that the plane may have been hijacked.

Schwartz went on to say that the second sign was that the plane was sending out the 7500 squawk code, which is a distress call that the plane has been hijacked.

...

The film and the controller say that the Federal Aviation Administration actually gave the order for the Korean jet to transmit the electronic signal that it was being hijacked. This was a foolhardy thing to do when armed F-15s are following the jet, thinking that it might be controlled by hijackers.

Fraser obtained FAA documents that show the agency ordered the jet to send the distress call. He also has transcripts of statements by Whitehorse RCMP officials who said the pilot told them he was ordered by the FAA to make the distress call.

This is an alarming piece of evidence because it put the lives of innocent people at risk. The nation was in a panic mode that day. A lot of things happened that probably would not have happened under normal circumstances.

Rick Wilder, a retired pilot and air traffic controller who was working in Anchorage that day, said the "worst thing I've ever had to do" was to issue the order to the Korean jet to issue the 7500 squawk code. He said it made no sense that day and it makes no sense now.

...

"The 7500 squawk was the hijack code," Wilder said. "A supervisor came down and said we need to have the Korean Air squawk 7500."

"I didn't really think it was the right thing to do," he said. "So they actually left and regroup and talked about it. I had my opinions of why it wasn't, but then later I was ordered to do it."...

...Here is a video of Townsend's interview with the controller that was shown after the documentary. He does not appear in the documentary. Wilder did contact Fraser after he first saw the film and let him know about it being the worst action that he had to take in his working life.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNwKo402zoY

Ah yes, transponder codes...

75 - The arab wants to drive - Hijacked 76 - the engine's quit - mechanical emergency/emergency landing 77 - pray to heaven - Mayday

At least I think that's what it was.... it's been a while since I was in flightschool

Hahaha, I learned my transponder codes very much like this.

Thanks for making me smile!

Note to non-pilots:

"75-The Arab wants to drive" corresponds to xpd code 7500--meaning the plane's been hijacked.

This would also seem to run in to the issue of cell transmitters. If he sent a text from a cell, how?

The link for newsminer.com is a 404

Has anybody noticed that "HJK" are all right next to each other on a phone keyboard?

Back in 2001-2002, when most people used T9, only TWO keys would have had to be pressed (besides for send) to compose this message.

There are pictures of the pentagon prior to the widely shown roof collapse photos. They clearly show a hole too small for a 747. Also, the portion of the pentagon which was hit was already under construction, and part of the records which were destroyed was about the 500 million missing from the budget that Rumsfield had announced 2 days before.

There were only 5 lo res frames released of the pentagon attack. All other videos were confiscated. The 5 frames also appear to be doctored, some have rounded edges, others don't. (All videos of the OKC bombing were confiscated too btw)

Many reports from the pentagon say it looked like a missile.

There were an abnormally high amount of govt personnel on the planes.

Several planes routes took them over military bases, where their transponders were messed with.

PNAC wanted "A New Pearl Harbor"

Just after 9/11 financial rules were temporarily changed for a few days allowing many billions in bonds to be transferred without the verification they normally required.

All the training exercises going on at the same time.

Bottom line, in my opinion there were several reasons for the attacks, and they were done by 'terrorists' from within our own government. It was to ramp up the military-industrial complex, but the main reason was to lay the framework so a select few could become even more rich and powerful.

Take a good look through Killtown's 9/11 coincidences and oddities page! http://killtown.911review.org/oddities/911.html Plus of course the other related pages for the years proceeding and afterwards.

Here is a list of video links collected from comments that redditors have made in response to this submission:

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The procedure for intercepting hijacked planes by the Air Force was changed just 3 months prior on 1/6/2001 which made intercepts effectively take longer.

http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/analysis/norad/docs/intercept_proc.pdf

I don't have time to find any links to it but, I saw an interview with an IT guy at WTC talked about strange system shutdowns and unusual activity in the months or weeks prior to 9/11.

I like this single pic that is a collection of pics for building 7

The interesting thing about this is the other buildings didn't collapse, but 7 did, despite two of them looking like they were pretty bad. (Especially that hotel).

But at the same time, there are so many variables for this sort of thing it's hard to say why one falls but not the other.

True but that Mandarin Oriental one compared to building 7 is pretty suspect.

Yeah, but maybe it leaning against itself is holding it up, barely. Hard to say. But on the face of it, it definitely is weird.

True, but to be fair, somebody needs to show the SOUTH side of WTC 7, which is burning like a roman candle.

Was it? Please shw some evidence to support your "roman candle" claim.

The only evidence I have is my recollection that I saw that picture, actually 2 pictures, somewhere out there on the interwebs. But regardless, doesn't it at least beg the question, if all we've ever seen is one side of the building?

Please look up all you can on "The B Thing" so called " art installation" in the Twin Towers:Balcony Scene (Or Unseen) Atop the World; Episode at Trade Center Assumes Mythic Qualities "In the spring of 2000, Gelatin and 14 other artists shared free studio space on the 91st floor, where the group's artmaking appeared to consist of building a clubhouse out of cardboard boxes." source http://www.nytimes.com/2001/08/18/nyregion/balcony-scene-unseen-atop-world-episode-trade-center-assumes-mythic-qualities.html?scp=1&amp;sq=

very strange- possible Mossad "art students" (quotes intentional) build bizarre balcony that juts OUT from a 91st floor window, they did it all very surreptitiously and without permission, then took it all down quietly. For more information on weird "art students" just do a simple web search for "Israeli art students" there are many suspicious instances regarding persons claiming to be art students eager to show/sell their "art": very poor renditions- they always try to enter secure buildings or make friends with important persons. Another thing to look up are Mossad mall kiosks! Very interesting, you'll waste some hours reading. These phony art students have been investigated and followed by law enforcement. You will not hear many stories or opinions from US law and intel agents regarding what the real story is as the media is not controlled by them- but by our enemies who are eager to change your mind to believe a lie. Thanks for considering// we can't let this 911 fiasco get away with the phony mainstream explanation. I watched non-US satellite tv (free to air Ku band) and before US news got the scoop, it was already on arab TV about the so called terrorists that were named found alive and well and wondering why their names were associated with this tragedy. They also exposed the phony "celebration" taking place in Palestine that was in reality an old file footage of a political parade for a local Palestinian politician. Not shown on Western media til much later and without all the fanfare on non-western media of course.

Mayor Guiltiaanni spent millions refurbishing his "command center" but spent zero time there during the crisis. He walked around down on the streets.

The Pentagon videos are not being shown... why is that again?

[deleted]

Not really. We just do as we always do. Nothing. Allright, signing off Reddit, got to get some government work done.

Evidence. They found a hijackers wallet in the wreckage. All the other wreckage turn to dust. LOL

What would be really awesome, reddit-defining, is if a post was made about each of the points, with people giving varying evidence for and against. Then you would end up with a handful of points that may or may not show a conspiracy took place.

Somebody needs to make /r/911showdown.

• The Facts Speak for Themselves: http://911blogger.com/news/2009-10-06/facts-speak-themselves

• The Facts of WTC 7: http://rememberbuilding7.org/7-facts-about-building-7/

• Henry Kissinger being assigned and then resigning from the 9/11 Commission Chairmanship.

• Tom Daschle and Patrick Leahy receiving anthrax attacks blamed on muslim extremists.

• Tom Daschle saying that Dick Cheney specifically told him not to investigate 9/11.

• Max Cleland resigning from the 9/11 Commission.

• Another Nineteen: Investigating Legitimate 9/11 Suspects (by Kevin Ryan) http://www.amazon.com/Another-Nineteen-Investigating-Legitimate-Suspects/dp/1489507833

• Here's the link to the Bentham Paper: http://www.benthamscience.com/open/tocpj/articles/V002/7TOCPJ.htm

• Complete sourced 9/11 Timeline: http://www.historycommons.org/project.jsp?project=911_project

• Bush and Cheney refused to meet with the 9/11 Commission, then relented but insisted on doing it together and refused to be sworn in under oath.

• Bush Administration denied healthcare to many of the first responders from that day.

You'll never give up on the wtc7 bullshit will ya? If a building halfway across town had fallen down for no reason I'd agree with you, but it was right next to a massive disaster, it had huge holes in it and was on fire for 8 hours with no fire suppression. If you really think wtc7 is your smoking gun, then you are smoking too much shit.

Starring Special Guest Shills: _Dimension, AnSq & buddhahat

in

We Need More Straw!

[deleted]

And Digitalcartel713 as The Village Idiot

all the planes pass directly over and/or abruptly turn above military bases

planes in photos clearly have protuberances on the underside exactly resembling known remote control pods

Pentagon planes hit areas performing audits on untracked $trillions in military transactions

John P. O'Neill. Works Counter-terrorism for FBI for over 20 years. Quits because the Bush administration put limits on his investigations, mainly into the money trail that had led him to Pakistan's ISI and Saudi Arabia. Upon leaving he decides to take a job as head of security for the Twin Towers, hired by Larry Silverstein. His first day of the job is 9/11. He didn't make it.

http://www.corbettreport.com/episode-001-investigate-911/

Has a couple I think you missed.

911: in plain sight. Said something about the ceo of rolls royce (and the other jet engine manufacturer) saying something along the lines of "there is no piece of an engine in the picture of the pentagon". You can't melt a jet engine without much higher tempratures. I'm convinced a predator drone is what hit the pentagon.

What about the military exercises, vigilant guardian etc

Something almost never mentioned. I remember hearing on my local PBS station that the Pentagon was reinforcing its walls. Just one of them. The day of 9-11 I wondered if the missile hit that one wall. Turns out that yes, the ONLY wall of the 5 sides of the Pentagon that was reinforced was the wall that was hit.

Even if you are evil you need to be smart. They could have at least pretended to reinforce the other walls.

http://www.public-action.com/911/4flights.html

I love you OP. I will peruse this post and see if there's anything I can add, but I highly doubt it.

With the destruction of WTC7, high profile SEC investigation files were destroyed, without apparent backups.

Forgive me if it's been stated, but the Twin Towers underwent their vest elevator upgrades in history in the months leading up to 9/11. The company that did the upgrades had some sketchy ties. Theory goes that they would have had ample opportunity to either plant explosives, or use thermite laden paint...

Policy and procedure of the National Fire Protection code 921 was ignored criminally! A crime occured and the evidence was destroyed by the government and shipped away.

Here, in Bosnia, there are two twin skyscrapers in our capital, Sarajevo. Just behind those two buildings there is an American embassy. Now, you may notice that the embassy is surrounded with 2-3 meters long wall. There is a claim that they practiced right here for the attack and calculating how to destroy the building. There were constant observations and FBI agents visited the building few times before the 9/11 to look at their infrastructure.

EDIT: I'm still wondering what's Turkish premier Erdogan doing on the billboard in the first picture in this post?

I don't see how those two smallish buildings are remotely comparable with the WTC towers.

I'll be glad to answer you, and I'll take the opportunity to tell a little bit more about that buildings and the U.S. embassy two blocks away.

First of all, these buildings are old, they were built in 1984 I think. They were highly damaged during the Yugoslavian war in 1990s. (here's the picture of the tower after the battle for Sarajevo was over, another one and another one). The buildings were built ten years after the World Trade Center, using World Trade Center as a model. There was even a fire in one of the towers during the war, but the buildings survived without collapsing. The American embassy was built after the battle for the Sarajevo. The war was still going strong. The year was 1994. Obviusly the Americans were impressed that the building survived.

Wikipedia says that the American intelligence analysts became concerned that Arab immigrants in Bosnia and Herzegovina planned to attack the US Embassy in Sarajevo just after 9/11, and, as a part of that attack, crash into those towers. (source). As I've pointed out in my previous post, there are evidences that the FBI agents inspected those towers, but not after the 9/11, before. And not once, a couple of times, last inspection was on the September 1st, ten days before planes crashed into WTC. Six men were even arrested because they were "connected to AlQuaida and planned that attack". Of course, there were no evidences, US admitted that and they were released from Guantanamo in 2008. So, they've spent seven years in Guantanamo for nothing. The story was not covered by the mainstream media.

In 2011., there was a minor "terrorist attack" on the U.S. embassy (here's the report from the FBI], basically nothing more than one guy with a machine gun and he didn't manage to kill nobody. Funny thing is he just walked inside the embassy. Through the main gate. With a shotgun. Nothing suspicious at all. Nobody even tried to stop him. During the trial, he said that he did that because the U.S. planted the bomb in the infrastructure of those two towers during the war. According to him, the bombs were planted while the towers were reconstructed (so between 1994 and 1998). The bomb was never found, nobody even looked for them. Ever. And he had some evidences to support that claim, but still... nothing. According to AlJazeera Balkan, that was nothing more than a "propaganda". The rest of the media just followed what AlJazeera reported. He's serving 10 years in prison here in Bosnia now. Nine to go.

That's pretty much all I know. So I have to say that in my opinion these two towers are VERY much connected to the 9/11.

Check out youtube user Alienscientist... He has so really great videos on this and other stuff... he is some sort of genius graduated from MIT studied physics. He put everything together very nicely.

When the nation was under attack, the president was not evacuated and later claimed that he saw the first plane hit on tv. Seems like someone knew it was coming.

The military trained for the exact events of 9/11 a year prior, but the orders to shoot down the "hijacked planes" was never given

This is what a proper conspiracy thread should look like.

Kudos all.

The Center for an Informed America

http://davesweb.cnchost.com/ < great stuff on 911

"People with the internet are harder to govern", because it is harder to lie to them.

You're doing God's work, son.

http://www.historycommons.org/project.jsp?project=911_project

Why would you comment this in response to me? Are you looking for a pat on the head as well? Why not comment directly to the OP where he's more likely to see it? He's the one compiling the information, not me.

Mechanics of Twin Towers' collapse Both buildings collapsed symmetrically and more or less straight down, though there was some tilting of the tops of the towers and a significant amount of fallout to the sides. In both cases, the portion of the building that had been damaged by the airplanes failed, which allowed the section above the airplane impacts to fall onto the undamaged structure below. As the collapse progressed, dust and debris could be seen shooting out of the windows several floors below the advancing destruction, caused by the sudden rush of air from the upper levels. The first fragments of the outer walls of the collapsed North Tower struck the ground 11 seconds after the collapse started, and parts of the South Tower after 9 seconds. The lower portions of both buildings' cores (60 stories of WTC 1 and 40 stories of WTC 2) remained standing for up to 25 seconds after the start of the initial collapse before they too collapsed.[12]

While the buildings were designed to support enormous static loads, they provided little resistance to the moving mass of the sections above the floors where the collapses initiated. Structural systems respond very differently to static and dynamic loads, and since the motion of the falling portion began as a free fall through the height of at least one story (roughly three meters or 10 feet), the structure beneath them was unable to stop the collapses once they began. Indeed, a fall of only half a meter (about 20 inches) would have been enough to release the necessary energy to begin an unstoppable collapse.[50]

But the undamaged massive lower section of each tower offered no resistance whatsoever. The larger, more robust lower section should have measurably slowed the collapse and then arrested further collapse. A building cannot pile drive itself into dust. If ten floors fall on the floors below, each of the ten floors will consume itself in destroying another floor. After the ten floors have expended their energy none remains to do any crushing as the building has always been supporting the weight.

http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/1kkvd3/i_believe_911_was_an_inside_job_cmv/cbpzob2?context=1

Most of this has been debunked.

Boston Bombing connection

boston bombers tamerlan and jahar thought 9/11 was an inside job and may have been framed

as a hip hop fan, jahar might have liked songs like these: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrQSAkaWsaU, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3u3JSEqNtlg

jahar became a naturalized citizen on september 11, 2012

tamerlan is being accused by the fbi of being guilty of the waltham triple murders which took place on september 11, 2011. the basis of this accusation is the alleged testimony of ibrigam todashev, who was killed by the fbi like tamerlan was: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibragim_Todashev#Todashev.27s_questioning_and_death

it might be worth doing a separate article on the bb, but here's some other stuff on it:

1. The fbi refused to comment on the alleged presence of craft international at the boston bombings (whose backpack, unlike jahar's, matches the one that exploded)

2. the police captured a naked man at 1 AM who looks like tamerlan. This was the same time Tamerlan was captured by the police. tamerlan's aunt also claims that this person was tamerlan. neither the police nor media have offered an alternative identity for the naked man, nor has he (if he isn't tamerlan) identified himself to clear up the confusion. the timeline doesn't match up with this article.

3. in this video tamerlan and jahar claim they are innocent

4. the fbi refuses to release the tape they claim to have of jahar dropping his backpack

5. there is no photo evidence to support jahar's alleged confession scrawled on the boat wall where he was captured.

6. the fbi extracted another alleged confession from jahar 16 hours before reading him his miranda rights

7. there is no forensic evidence that jahar or tamerlan ever had guns or fired on police. claims that a shootout took place at the boat were later retracted.

8. one of the fbi's key witnesses has been identified only as "danny". the brothers are alleged to have carjacked him. danny's testimony is the only basis for the fbi's claim that the brothers killed MIT police officer, sean collier.

9. jennings aske claims to have photos of the brothers shooting at police, but they are nowhere to be found.

MISC

fed economist fired for investigating suspicious cash transfers: http://topinfopost.com/2013/07/29/fed-economist-fired-for-investigating-suspicious-911-cash-transfers

government destroyed documents regarding pre-9/11 put options: http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2010/06/sec-government-destroyed-documents-regarding-pre-911-put-options.html

The project for a new american century cited the need for "a new pearl harbor" in early 2000: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2003/sep/06/september11.iraq

Opium in afghanistan and the russian connection: http://lobster-magazine.co.uk/articles/global-drug.htm

Atta's german connection: http://rigint.blogspot.com/2006/11/that-body-snatchers-moment.html http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2006/03/springtime-for-atta_31.html

Bank of America's $3 billion in terrorism funding: http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2006/04/money-doesnt-talk.html

michael springmann on cia issuing saudi’s visas: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Springmann, http://www.webcitation.org/6DVpEBvmF

Cass Sunstein, who was the White House's head of Information and Regulatory Affairs from 2008-2012, wrote an article advocating 9/11 shils shortly before taking up his position: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cass_Sunstein#.22Conspiracy_Theories.22_and_government_infiltration

Michael Hastings was researching sock puppets: http://www.mathaba.net/news/pda.shtml?x=633336

Phillip Marshall

Marshall, his two kids, and dog were found dead in early february. The police declared it a murder suicide the day he was discovered, and claim to have ruled out foul play. They did a short investigation and backed up their claims saying that they have medical records proving he is mentally unstable and surveillance video of him buying a gun the week before. They also claim to have police reports from 2008 regarding conflict between him and his wife. His wife has said very little publicly and there has been almost no msm coverage: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2013/02/hundreds-mourn-teen-siblings-killed-by-father-in-murder-suicide.html

"Marshall, a former United Airlines pilot, has written about his work with drug-runner Barry Seal during the Iran-contra scandal. Seal was murdered in 1986. Also, Marshall has challenged official accounts of 9/11. He was working on a new book about the 1963 assassination of President John Kennedy, one of more than 250 by various authors."

http://dcxposed.com/2013/02/06/911-conspiracy-author-phillip-marshall-murders-children-self-in-ca/ http://www.justice-integrity.org/faq/443-questions-raised-on-author-s-suicide-murder-finding

http://21stcenturywire.com/2013/02/28/philip-marshall-murder-suicide-a-lack-of-evidence/

"Many news reports have been quick to echo what the Calaveras County Sheriffs Department has claimed; Philip Marshall killed his two teenage kids, his dog, and himself. What we know is that there is no motive for the allegation, and we know that this conclusion was made the same day that the three bodies were found."

"The biggest conspiracy theory here is the one that the police have come up with. Have they tested Philip Marshall for gun residue (ballistics testing)? The police department have not released any information about this question and I haven’t seen it asked in the local news reports about Philip Marshall."

Why would he have killed his kids because of a dispute with his wife? Neighbors and close friends report that he was very close to them, involved in their school activities, etc. There was an upcoming divorce hearing in late february, but it's unlikely they would have wanted to move away rather than finish high school where they were, with their friends.

More on PTECH

Ptech was a Boston software firm financed by Saudi businessman Yassin Al-Qadi. The UN placed sanctions against him in 1999 and 2000, when he was named by UN Security Council Resolutions 1267 and 1333 as a suspected associate of al-Qaeda.

Oussama Ziade, CEO of Ptech, claims that al-Qadi "talked very highly of his relationship" with Dick Cheney.

In mid-June of 2002, Joe Bergantino, a reporter for WBZ-TV's investigative team was working on this story. He received a tip from Indira Singh who suspected that Ptech had tied to terrorists. His research revealed that Ptech's clients included many federal government agencies including the U.S. Army, Air Force, Naval Air Command, Congress, Department of Energy, Aviation Administration, Internal Revenue Service, NATO, FBI, Secret Service, and the White House.

In September, Bergantino was told by federal authorities not to air the story because it would jeopardize their investigation and threaten national security. These authorities claimed that if the story was run, documents would be shredded and people would flee.

Despite an October 2001 Executive Order signed by Bush which froze the assets of individuals linked to terrorism, a list which included al-Qadi, the government did not investigate Ptech in October 2001. It waited until August 2002, when Bergantino called attention to Ptech.

After Bergantino pushed again to air the story, the government became abusive and claimed they would blame WBZ-TV if their investigation got botched. They promised Bergantino that if he held the story, he would have advance noticed about a planned raid on Ptech. They did not tell him, and alerted an ABC News reporter instead.

Modified excerpts from Jeff Well’s extended “Coincidence Theorist’s Guide to 9/11” found in “Amoral America” with additional citation

Jonathan Bush's Riggs Bank has been found guilty of laundering terrorist funds and find a US-record $25 million: http://www.talkleft.com/story/2004/05/17/404/87817/otherpolitics/Bush-s-Uncle-is-Head-of-Bank-Fined-in-Money-Laundering-Probe

43 lbs of heroin was found on board the Lear Jet owned by Wally Hilliard, the owner of Atta's flight school, three weeks after Atta enrolled - the biggest seizure ever in Central Florida. Hilliard was not charged: http://web.archive.org/web/20040409154402/http://longislandpress.com/v02/i08040226/news_02.asp

Hilliard's plane had made 30-round trips to Venezuela with the same passengers who always paid cash. The plane had been supplied by a pair of drug smugglers who had also outfitted CIA drug runner Barry Seal. 9/11 commissioner Richard ben-Veniste had been Seal's attorney before Seal's murder.

George Bush found success as a businessman only after the investment of Osama's brother Salem and reputed al Qaeda financier Khalid bin Mahfouz: http://www.theguardian.com/media/2004/mar/31/pressandpublishing.saudiarabia

One of George Bush's first acts as President, in January 2001, was to end the two-year deployment of attack submarines which were positioned within striking distance of al Qaeda's Afghanistan camps, even as the group's guilt for the Cole bombing was established

The standing order which covered the shooting down of hijacked aircraft was altered on June 1, 2001 to take discretion away from field commanders and place it solely in the hands of the Secretary of Defense. The order was rescinded shortly after 9/11: http://911review.com/means/standdown.html

In the weeks before 9/11 FBI agent Colleen Rowley found her investigation of Zacarias Moussaoui so perversely thwarted that her colleagues joked that bin Laden had a mole at the FBI: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,249500,00.html

Dave Frasca of the FBI's Radical Fundamentalist Unit received a promotion after quashing multiple, urgent requests for investigations into al Qaeda assets training at flight schools in the summer of 2001: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122418677743141839.html

FBI Special Investigator Robert Wright claims that agents assigned to intelligence operations actually protect terrorists from investigation and prosecution, that the FBI shut down his probe into terrorist training camps and that he was removed from a money-laundering case that had a direct link to terrorism. This includes Yassin al-Qadi, owner of PTECH: http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/tearful-fbi-agent-apologizes-sept-11-families-and-victims-0

Mahmood Ahmed, chief of Pakistan's ISI, authorized an al Qaeda payment of $100,000 to Mohammad Atta days before the attacks, and was meeting with senior Washington officials over the week of 9/11. Porter Goss met with Ahmed the morning of September 11 in his capacity as Chariman of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence and was subsequently selected by the White House to head the Central Intelligence Agency: http://globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO206A.html

Goss's congressional seat encompasses the 9/11 hijackers' Florida base of operation, including their flight schools

Republican guru and libertarian Grover Norquist aided financiers and supporters of Islamic terror to gain access to the Bush White House, and is a founder of the Islamic Institute, which the Treasury Department believes to be a source of funding for al Qaeda: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grover_Norquist

FBI informant Randy Glass, working an undercover sting, was told by Pakistani intelligence operatives that the World Trade Center towers were coming down. His repeated warnings continued until weeks before the attacks and included the mention of planes used as weapons, but were ignored by federal authorities: http://www.historycommons.org/entity.jsp?entity=rajaa_gulum_abbas

John Ashcroft stopped flying commercial aircraft in July 2001 on account of security considerations: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/07/26/national/main303601.shtml

Former lead counsel for the House David Schippers says he'd taken to John Ashcroft's office specific warnings he'd learned from FBI agents in New York of an impending attack - even naming the proposed dates, names of the hijackers and the targets - and that the investigations had been stymied and the agents threatened: http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/entity.jsp?entity=david_schippers

Garth Nicolson received two warnings from contacts in the intelligence community and one from a North African head of state, which included specific site, date and source of the attacks, and passed the information to the Defense Department and the National Security Council: http://www.mediamonitors.net/mosaddeq36.html

In the months prior to September 11, self-described US intelligence operative Delmart Vreeland sought, from a Toronto jail cell, to get US and Canadian authorities to heed his warning of his accidental discovery of impending catastrophic attacks: http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/04_04_02_vree_intervw.html

FEMA arrived in New York on Sept 10 to prepare for a scheduled biowarfare drill, and had a triage centre ready to go that was larger and better equipped than the one that was lost in the collapse of WTC 7 (9/11 Commission, NYC.gov, CBS video)

Pentagon officials cancelled flights on Sept 10 for the following day on account of security concerns : http://web.archive.org/web/20030211002640/http://www.msnbc.com/news/627963.asp?cp1=1

Lt. Col. Steve Butler, Vice Chanceller for student affairs of the Defense Language Institute during ALghamdi's terms was disciplined, removed from his post, and threatened with court martial when he wrote "Bush knew of the impending attacks on America. He did nothing to warn the American people because he needed this war on terrorism. What is contemptible is the President of the United States not telling the American people what he knows for political gain.": http://globalresearch.ca/articles/ISA206A.html

Ha'aretz and Forward both published stories about Israelis with links to military-intelligence that were arrested on Sept. 11 videotaping and celebrating the attacks, an Israeli espionage ring surveillancing DEA and defense installations and trailing the hijackers, and of a warning of impending attacks delivered to the Israeli company Odigo two hours before the first plane hit: http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/odigo-says-workers-were-warned-of-attack-1.70579

The National Military Command Center ops directors asked a rookie substitute to stand his watch at 8:30 am on Sept 11: http://tomflocco.com/fs/NMCCOpsDirector.htm

A former flight school executive believes the hijackers were 'double agents,' and says about Atta and associates, "Early on I gleaned these guys had government protection. They were let into this country for a specific purpose." He was visited by the FBI just four hours after the attacks to intimidate him into silence: http://www.madcowprod.com/mc332004.html

Two Arabic messages sent from Saudi Arabia to Afghanistan are intercepted by the National Security Agency, which state "the match is about to begin" and "tomorrow is zero hour." The NSA claims they were not translated until September 12: http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=a091001arabic

Eight hours before the attacks, San Francisco Mayor Willie Brown receives a warning from his "security people" advising him against flying to New York the next morning: http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/matier-ross/article/Willie-Brown-got-low-key-early-warning-about-air-3314754.php

I suggest making your own post, as your getting downvoted, maybe because it is 'off topic'

i may make a post about the BB later. these were just to provide information for /u/Three_Letter_Agency

as a hip hop fan, jahar probably liked songs like these: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrQSAkaWsaU[1] , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3u3JSEqNtlg[2]

Yeah that is not assuming at all. Continue on with your nonsense.

he liked hip hop and thought 9/11 was an inside job.

I changed it to might have because probably reflects my own subjective bias and emotional identification with someone who seems very similar to me

I asked above, but haven't received an answer yet, so I'll ask you. What do you hope to gain by researching all hese conspiracies? I mean, what is the end goal for you guys?

It feels good to not feel like the only one that feels everything we were ever taught about this country in school was a facade.

The end goal is a new, transparent and impartial investigation. If we truly are fighting a war based on lies, then we deserve tonnage the right to stop the killing of innocent humans from all walks of life.

You are referring to the Boston case or 9/11 here? Either way, I meant conspiracies as a whole. Will you go on to solve the next after you solve this, or what is in it for you?

Edit:

Also, do you actually believe in evil people wanting to kill innocent lives sitting in the government?

I was referring to 9/11, sorry for the confusion.

There was a time when I highly doubted that there were men evil enough to conspire to commit false flags as a pretense to war. Then came the declassification of Operation Northwoods in 1997. This gave clear proof that not only were all four branches of the military intent on fabricating a cause for war with Cuba, but they didn't give a rats ass about innocent people dying. Google it. Read through the document. Then tell me you don't believe there are men evil enough to use false flag terror events to reach their means.

I know about Northwoods, but I'm from Europe, so I need to read up on it.

It's just so odd to me if your government is so pure evil at the top, and every president that gets elected seems to be connected to some sort of major conspiracy. Almost all Americans I have encountered in my life have been happy go lucky people, polite and open. But for some reason your government just appears to be evil as fuck. Plus, every fucking American I talk to, almost always despise their government.......I don't know man, it's a weird place apparently.

Thank you for the NBA, (most)music and movies though :)

Actually, I'm Canadian. :-) But my country has sent troops to die in these wars, and after reading all 3 of the US governments reports regarding 9/11 (they had to keep commissioning new ones after flaws were pointed out) I have to conclude that they did a sloppy investigation all 3 times. I was 30 years old on 9/11... I watched the news from the moment the first plane hit. I saw interviews with people who said there were explosions. I saw interviews with Firefighters and heard the explosions in the background. When asked if NIST investigated of there was any evidence of explosive devices, they said no, but they admit they didn't look for any. Hunh? The biggest terrorist attack in US history and you don't even think that it could be a possibility that planes were not the only reason those three buildings fell? It's the avoidance of researching probable scenarios that makes me suspicious of the government's involvement. And if I can just get back to building 7 for a second, the NIST report attempts to explain how the building fell. The problem is that their models and diagrams show the building collapsing in a way that the visual evidence simply does not support. It looks completely different, and they refuse to supply the parameters upon which their hypothesis is based. Some of the stuff in this thread is overwhelming, but this fact is irrefutable. If you're interested I know you can find the final NIST report online, I think the building 7 stuff starts around page 300ish. The artwork doesn't match what we can see with our eyes.

PS you're welcome for hockey!

Hockey is allright.........ahh fuck it, THANKS! But seriously, thank you for Steve Nash and Pamela Anderson. Awesome job.

I viewed the whole thing as it happened aswell. Over here it all started at 3 in the afternoon, so everyone just got back more or less. I lost a good friend in Iraq because of this, so it's close to my heart aswell. I heard most of the interviews aswell, and you can of course view them on youtube now. I believe a lot of explosions did happen that day, I just cant see it would be planted explosives.

My rational mind is just asking my why you wouldnt just set off the bombs immediatly and get max kill numbers, instead of going through all these random times, of planes hitting, towers collapsing at random times, the plane that crashed in the field etc.

What's your point of view on that?

Building 7 was destroyed because of the information that was there? Why would they not just blow that building up aswell immediatly, instead of letting it collapse later in the day when that information could have been salvaged?

Well, I think if they just blew everything up at once, it would be obvious to everyone who witnessed it that the explosions would have to be investigated. Questions would be asked. The most important of which would be, "How could enough explosives be planted to accomplish this without it raising any suspicions?" The only conclusion would be that there would have to be someone on the inside orchestrating it.

(on a side note, in the 4 months leading up to 9/11, WTC 1&2 were a part of the largest elevator upgrades in history. Is it possible, they were wittingly, or unwittingly involved?)

By crashing planes into the building first, there is a diversion of focus and time to evacuate as many potential 'up close' witnesses as possible, allowing them to paint the remaining witnesses as unreliable, delusional, or simply mistaken due to trauma.

This is just a theory of course, but again, the fact that from day one, no one in the US government would even entertain the possibility of explosives is baffling. The fact that they flat out refuse to investigate that possibility is an afront to the Scientific Method.

Yes it would be investigated, and it would conclude that Osama did it. Would it not be more spectacular, and give them even more reason to just do whatever they wanted to? What is the difference from security lacking in the air or in the WTC? I know I am just being the devils advocate here, but I just can't see the reason for the extreme attacks. Would any public target not been enough to fuel a war?

As for the reasoning behind the investigation is lacking. I would assume they wouldn't be interested in paying the $ neccesary for an investigation they deem unreasonable. The wittnesses who claims there was bombs clearly aren't good enough. I heard most of the bomb claims, and they are all random. "We heard explosions....." Yeah, well shit was blowing up. But there havent been any claims of a clear explosion as when the planes hit? If so, just link it, I would be extremely interested.

I get what you're saying and there is some sense to it for sure. While I agree they would still blame it on Bin Laden, people would be like, "how the fuck did Al Queda get access (for months) to all those buildings?" there would need to be some blame placed to at least SOME of the staff in the buildings. That being said, no one to date from the airlines have been blamed or faulted so maybe it would also get swept under the rug.

I don't have all the answers to be sure. I'm at work and Googling reports of explosions on my phone is cumbersome. Some of the evidence listed in that thread is a reach, but there's also a lot of very valid points that I've investigated. My gut says that with all the facts presented, there WERE people in high places that knew this was going to happen and by being either involved directly, or simply allowing it to happen, it would further their war agenda. And if all this death and war were simply about 9/11... Why are we still in it? Bin Laden is dead and so is Hussein, and for 12 years the news pops up now and again how they have captured or killed one of Osama's right hand men. Seriously, how threatened should we feel? At this point I won't even cross the border to the US because it is being run by fascists... Road side strip searches, warrantless spying and confiscation of cellphones and laptops. People killed on American streets by drones and police without even a trial. This is what America has become because of 9/11. They have almost complete control over their citizenry and I don't believe for a second that it's some kind of a 'natural progression' I believe Sociopaths and Psychopaths have infiltrated some very high places in all branches of government, and the only thing they care about is money, power, and their own agenda.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdTpU5WZHHM

No..........NO! You can't just be that vague..... I need to know what the end goal is!? I want the world to be less war and poverty stricken place, but spreading negativity and uncertainty through researching conspiracy theories is not a way to a more happy and accepted way of life.

I'll take your lame excuse for bait... Lets just say it's all true.

Lets say our entire government is a sham and has no problem killing it's own citizens in order to promote it's own secret agenda.

Yeah, we'd need to deal with that.

That's something I would rather risk my own life fighting instead of letting the burden fall on my childrens' backs.

I don't really think it's fair to equate this with spreading negativity. This negativity already existed and has already hurt millions of people's lives (all those who have died in the wars in afghanistan and iraq, for instance). Learning from history and understanding how and why the world we live in today is a war and poverty stricken place is crucial if we are to do something about it and prevent these kinds of things from happening again.

For instance, this is an interview with someone who has written a book which claims that the fbi killed mlk as well as many other black leaders. Knowing what the fbi and cia have done, are doing, and plan to do is important. Knowledge of this history is why I don't believe that jahar and tamerlan are guilty on the basis of the fbi's word alone.

I don't really think it's fair to equate this with spreading negativity. This negativity already existed and has already hurt millions of people's lives (all those who have died in the wars in afghanistan and iraq, for instance). Learning from history and understanding the how and why the world we live in today is a war and poverty stricken place is crucial if we are to do something about it and prevent these kinds of things from happening again.

<---- Had to post it since you deleted it.

Every conspiracy you don't get right, only spreads negativity and uncertainty, mistrust etc. No way you can debate me on that. But you again avoided the question. What is the end goal for the internet conspiracy theorists as yourself? Don't take this personal, you're just a username, but you know what I mean.

Sorry, I edited it to add a few things. It's here.

Every conspiracy you don't get right, only spreads negativity and uncertainty, mistrust etc. No way you can debate me on that. But you again avoided the question. What is the end goal for the internet conspiracy theorists as yourself? Don't take this personal, you're just a username, but you know what I mean.

How do you weigh that in advance against the ones we do get right? I think that learning is an intrinsically valuable endeavor and I am interested in conspiracies because they seem to get at the heart of so many problems we face today.

I don't really know what the end goal is. I don't think it can be determined so precisely before we get there, or we wouldn't be learning anything. I want to know what's going on so that I can use that knowledge to make the world a better place. I want to be able to share my knowledge with others and learn from others in turn. That's all.

So much of history is a lie. I think that our educational system is broken, and making sure that future generations learn what actually happened seems pretty important to me.

We happen to be doing this right now with blogs and through discussions on reddit. I'm going to write a thesis on conspiracy theory two years from now. I don't really know what I'm going to do after that.

Cool beans. Sorry for the late reply bro, been out dining with the family.

I have a hard time really writing what I am thinking here. Though I get what you're saying....

I don't trust everything blindly, far from it, but on the other hand, I don't distrust it blindly. I am aware of people, and the mistakes they can make, innocently and on purpose. I just always have a hard time having rational conversations with "conspiracy people", and they often end in a angry fashion, even though I don't want them to, they often end in: "Fucking shill" "Disinfo agent" etc.

So if these are the people who are solving all these cases.........well consider me amazed.

I am rambling here I know. Too much wine.

a few bad apples give the rest of us a bad name. the people throwing around accusations like that are more likely to be shills than anyone else, or at the very least aren't aware of how polarizing, divisive, and unprovable such accusations are

That's the thing. I isn't a few. It's the vast majority. For open-minded people they are very set on one thing.

Answer me this man; Do you believe that it is mean people who is head of security, Governments etc. and they are controlling and manipulating the rest of us like dumb animals.

Or, can it be a few bad apples that gives the rest of them a bad name?

"vast majority" is a very strong claim. i don't think it's true.

i think that our rulers are, by and large, psychopaths.

the rest find themselves surrounded by psychopaths and unable to do what they would because of this.

Honestly, this is the most normal convo I've had in ages asking these questions, true story. Thanks.

Good read, the link. I'm halfway through already. But had to write this question before i forgot:

Lets say these psycho's actually have managed to get in the right political positions worldwide, and they are just doing evil horrible stuff on a daily. Could it not just be a natural thing for us people? We get on top, and we get straight up evil, always, no excuse. And if you are not in a position of power, you only see the bad in people, conspiracies everywhere.

This is starting to make more sense to me...........and my wine.

I'll finish the read.

I'm glad!

I think it is natural, to an extent. But I don't think that means it's unchangeable or inevitable. hierarchies tend to exacerbate this and working to undo hierarchies and replace them with horizontal structures would hopefully do a lot to overcome it.

there are a lot of examples of good, too. people that are trying to do something about this, that are just interested in getting along with folk and enjoying the time they have with their family and friends.

hierarchies tend to exacerbate this and working to undo hierarchies and replace them with horizontal structures would hopefully do a lot to overcome it.

But do you think horizontal structures really work. How horizontal would i be if you could choose? I know we are talking in a broad spectrum here....

yeah i do. this book is a good read if you're interested, it discusses 5 examples of horizontalism in action today.

But that would really depend on the people you are working with in the organization. How would this become a possibility when you still have religion spooking in the background. Im all for it though.

Implying that we should cease scrutiny of suspicious circumstances?

If ANY of these conspiracies are true wouldn't you agree that the benefit of knowing the truth outweighs any negativity or uncertainty garnered by the others?

This cannot be proved either way so it is irrelevant. No one has any idea of how many REAL conspiracies there are as opposed to how many people believe there are.

Anyways, that's like saying its okay to spy on everyone using the NSA in case we find one terrorist. Or sacrificing the rights of the many innocent to catch the guilty. It's the other way around. Why spread tons of negativity and falsehood JUST IN CASE when in reality it's probably not a secret society at the top trying to fuck people over.

And truth is relevant too. For example, the truth behind a moon conspiracy would just be lies(granted, big ones). The truth behind a 9/11 coverup would mean that a GOVERNMENT MURDERED THOUSANDS OF THEIR OWN PEOPLE. Clearly not all of them are created equal, so how could you say the truth would be worth it? Who would it really affect? You could have convinced someone that the government was responsible for their father's death because you're trying to spread "truth".

Like I said, can't be proved either way but cmon let's consider both sides.

By "these" I meant the ones being discussed in this thread, sorry for the lack of clarification.

The negativity surrounding 9-11 conspiracies and the others that question the governments actions are furthered most by the complete lack of cooperation of govt officials that are supposed provide a certain level of transparency to the people that they are charged to defend.

Most of the people that come to this sub don't come here for the reptilian threads.

Anyways, that's like saying its okay to spy on everyone using the NSA in case we find one terrorist. Or sacrificing the rights of the many innocent to catch the guilty. It's the other way around.

Lol, how so?

The comparison I'm making is you are suspecting everything with the hopes you find an ounce of truth. I don't think that is justified, the amount of suspicion and problems caused is not worth the reward. It is a different case when specifically talking about this conspiracy though I can say that.

I don't suspect everything, but when I find something to be suspicious I prefer to have those suspicions addressed through research.

Saying that we shouldn't look into such things because it erodes the public trust is laughable. If such suspicions aren't dispelled there is no public trust.

Nope. I am just looking for what people think the end goal is. One conspiracy at the time till you catch Mr. Illuminati and then we begin a new, completely innocent!?. Or can people cope with the fact they they might take "opportunities" if they were put in the same situation as some of the people commiting conspiracies.

Sorry for the spelling, English isn't my first language.

There's "opportunities" and then there's "sworn duties".

Some people that have performed public service actually took their oaths seriously and would like to see people held accountable if they have in fact broken that trust.

That wasn't my question. But yeah, I am with you on that. I don't believe everyone is evil, but i do believe everyone is capable of evil in a certain situation.

Taking 1000's of innocent lives knowingly though, for money, and you are already rich as fuck, I find that hard to believe would be happening on such a grand scale that "most" conspiracy people wish for it to be true.

Honestly, the fact that no plane hit building seven is irrelevant. No one said that it was hit with a plane. It was hit with debris, that could have easily started the fires, so I don't understand what people are trying to say with that one.

If I'm missing something please explain.

Also I have only seen one of the BBC too-soon reports of 7 falling. The one with the building visible over the girls shoulder. Can I get a link to the other?

Here is a compilation of buildings on fire and after pictures

http://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/1kj5yj/steel_frame_building_fires/

I have seen that. It is pretty cool. What does it pertain to in regards to my comment...I are confuzzeled

People are finding it hard to beleive a building that was on fire for a few hours would suddenly collapse at free fall speed. No building over 15 stories has ever fallen due to fire. The link I showed you illustrates what 'normally' happens when a building is engulfed in flames.

Oh I know that. I think you misunderstood. I also don't buy the official reason they say it fell.

Phrasing it as "No plane hit building 7" seems kinda silly though. Yeah. No plane did, and no one said it did. What does it refute? Not much.

This idea is beter phrased by "No steel frame building has ever collapsed due to fire of ANY magnatude prior to building 7." and "Buildings with asymetrical damage would be reasonably expected to collapse in an aysymetrical fashion, as has been well recorded."

Oh I understand you now.

On the same page with this then. I agree with you, the wording is not brilliant

I just dont think, as a "Terrorist mastermind" anyone would plan 911 and think they would have any success. There are so many more valuable targets where you could have many more casualties. 4/4 on hijacking commercial AMERICAN aircraft? Then plan relies on that happening. Without that, plan fails. Why would you waste resources like embedded cells on something as high risk as that? Suicide bombers at simulateous nfl nba nhl or mlb games would seem a much lower risk, higher probability of success with more casualties. Thats just one example

Please feel free to post this on /r/Vetting

the cnn clip of the underbelly approach to tower2 is THE smoking gun of 911

check this 200fps slomo video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSDfbm8OhCg

watch and rewatch as a puff of smoke is followed by a flash from the extra pod on the underside of the plane, the pod then makes its own entry wound on the face of the building. PROVING 100% that the plane was carrying additional equipment, not a "shadow" or other disinfo bullshit.

why fire a missile or incendiary into the building before impact?

to guarantee ignition of the jetfuel, to guarantee destruction of all data and personnel on the floors targeted, to damage the mighty steel core.

This has to be the biggest circlejerk in history.

This is great work, OP. Thanks.

Ok. So we've gathered the evidence of almost 12 years of investigation. Who did it and why?

Larry Silverstein had the WTC insured 2 months before 9/11 to cover acts of Terrorism After 9/11 he tried to file for double the money because 2 acts of terrorism had happened upon his buildings. He made 7 Billion in insurance.

So many of these alleged facts are misrepresentations, or distortions of the actual facts, such as a number of NIST's findings on Building 7's collapse.

Many more are simple fantasies, such as evidence of nanothermite (which you rather laughingly suggest has been peer reviewed by the BenthamOpen Chemical Physics Journal.)

Still more appear to have no connection whatsoever to the tragic events of 9/11 and appear to have been included simply to bulk up your list, or because their inclusion seems to support your overall narrative.

This list is a perfect example of why many people are so hostile to conspiracy theories, and often, rightly so.

No NTSB investigations or reconstructions of the 4 flights.

Insider trading blamed on cave dwellers. It's laughable that anything suspicious is simply blamed on Osama, no matter how unrealistic it is.

It might be worth mentioning that a controlled demolition on that scale would take more than a day to set up.

You're about 50k words probably but let's get to the bottom of this.

I'm gonna get down-voted to hell and back.

Let's treat this as a thought experiment, and let's use Occam's Razor:

What if they just had explosives in place and decided to take down the WTC to minimize casualties?

Sibel Edmonds has ZERO credibility-- she worked at the FBI for less than 6 months after 9/11 and her whistleblowing was related to administrative procedures and had nothing to do with 9/11. It only takes a little research to completely realize that she is not credible and most of her claims are gibberish.

Otherwise, I'm impressed by the research the OP has done to compile this info.

Yes, that's right, the most gagged woman in the world is spewing BS. Uh huh. I suppose you think that all of Snowden's information was crap as well, total BS right?

She was a whistleblower. She was virulently attacked by the Bush administration and the DOJ. I'm 99% sure she's legit.

Do your research; you'll find I'm absolutely correct.

I think Snowden is legit, but thanks for making an assumption.

Sibel Edmonds is the founder of Boiling Frogs Post. She is known by many for her 6 month tenure as an FBI linguist which ended in termination. Edmonds termination was, in-part, a retaliation for the continuous concerns she raised about a co-worker; concerns that caused many in the Bureau to find Edmonds disruptive. After being fired, Edmonds was vocal about being wrongfully terminated. Long story short, Edmonds persistence resulted in exposing the FBI's poor internal investigation practices and significant reform of these practices. That being said, I've listened to a lot of her appearances with various alternative media outlets as well as her own material at Boiling Frogs Post. Edmonds seems to be universally praised by the alternative media and her pontifications are mostly treated as likely accurate because of her "insider" status based on her history. As I became more exposed to Edmonds thoughts on a plethora of topics, I found myself having growing doubts about most of her claims/theories on issues of the day and wondered why her ideas were never challenged by others in alternative media; I was perplexed, so I decided to examine Sibel Edmonds background and experience that makes her such an important "insider" because clearly I must be missing something. I read countless materials about her in order to understand why she is hailed as this great government "insider" who is intricately knowledgeable about the secrets of the justice department. (Fun Fact: She's an author, in 2012 she wrote "Classified Woman-The Sibel Edmonds Story: A Memoir" which I obviously thought was a big deal and would boost her credibility until I noticed her publisher is Sibel Edmonds... Yes, it is self-published; you could do the same thing for yourself, Amazon will show you how) For background, here is what the ACLU writes about Edmonds FBI tenure which lasted from late-September 2001 until 22 March 2002 (just 6 months): http://www.aclu.org/national-security/sibel-edmonds-patriot-silenced-unjustly-fired-fighting-back-help-keep-america-safe While an FBI translator, Edmonds discovered poorly translated documents relevant to the 9-11 attacks and reported the shoddy work to her supervisors. She also expressed concerns about a co-worker who had previously worked for an organization under FBI surveillance and had a relationship with a foreign intelligence officer also under surveillance. In addition, Edmonds claimed that she was told to work slowly to give the appearance that the agency was overworked so it would receive a larger budget, despite a large backlog of documents that needed translating. Even though she followed all appropriate procedures for reporting her concerns up the chain of command, Edmonds was retaliated against and fired. However, I figured that surely her pre-FBI experience must be vast; I was sorely mistaken... According to the U.S. Department of Justice Office of the Inspector General's 2005 report titled "A Review of the FBI's Actions in Connection With Allegations Raised By Contract Linguist Sibel Edmonds" which details her experience prior to her 6 months at the FBI: http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/doj/oig/sedmonds.html Edmonds, who was born abroad and speaks English fluently, moved to the United States in 1991 to attend college. She married an American citizen in 1992. Before joining the FBI, Edmonds worked as a volunteer at a local courthouse, as a court-appointed special advocate for children, and for the Rostropovich foundation, a non-profit organization that delivers medical supplies and food to a children's hospital. In addition, Edmonds served as a corporate officer (Secretary) for her husband's consulting business. Her experience is flimsy at best. After trying to debunk my own doubts about her, my research has resulted in even more doubts about her credibility. So, I figured I'd ask if there is something that I am missing???? I mean Sibel Edmonds is hailed as such a trusted voice and purported "insider" by so many in alternative media but her experience doesn't even come close to meriting her pontificating "insider" info on so many current topics. After learning her background, I really feel like Dorothy after Toto pulls aside a curtain, revealing the Wizard to be a harmless elderly illusionist...

I'm not sure where the criticism of her credibility here is?

Is it the self published book? I'm willing to bet many publishers would not touch her given the ongoing litigation.

Is it the fact that she only had 6 months experience at the FBI? She was recruited by them specifically because of her language skills.

Otherwise, I cannot see anything based on what you wrote which is a valid criticism of her legitimacy.

Edmonds is treated as an oracle of government secrets & her analysis is almost universally praised in alternative media when her credentials do not merit or validate her expertise.

One MAJOR point that what is consistently missed by the hype and fawning over her is that she blew the whistle on the FBI's abysmal internal investigation practices related to handling one employee's concerns about another employee.

While she should be commended for being the catalyst for the FBI reforming these practices. However, her actions were not privy to or revealing of anything that would provide her with unique, specific information on 9-11 which is what she claims.

Considering her entire professional career experience prior to her six months with the FBI was: volunteering at a local courthouse as a special advocate for children and volunteering for the Rostropovich foundation; and by examining her duties while with the FBI it is clear that she lacked access to the information she claims and that she did NOT blow the whistle on anything related to 9/11 as she claims.

No you are correct, she did not blow the whistle on anything 9/11 related, except to say that she had seen some suspicious documents while doing translating.

You don't like her, that's ok, I think she's ok, that should be ok too.

As far as her credentials: In the aftermath of 9/11 the security state shifted gears and went into overdrive. They were hiring all over the place. She happened to be fluent in the languages they required, therefore qualified for the job. She was not an analyst, she was not a field agent, she was employed simply to translate. While she was doing this she may or may not have seen some shady stuff regarding 9/11.

What I can tell you is that the foreign languages division is near always the most sensitive department of an intelligence organization, it has a huge potential for abuse (read: falsifying information/manipulating translations) It would not surprise me if she had seen a lot of different things there that would shock anyone.

I appreciate your thoughtful reply and our dialogue.

I was a fan of Edmonds and would regularly listen to her interviews & podcasts. After hearing her repeated references to her time at the fbi being the foundation of her claims and insights I started researching her time at the FBI and was quite surprised with what I learned. I thought I must be missing something and began a thread here asking for assistance to fill in the blanks; I learned there weren't any holes in my research.

Based on this, it was clear that her alleged extensive contacts and intimate knowledge of the inner workings were severely embellished and that such claims serve as the foundation for her credibility then it is impossible to accept each theory she utilizes about a particular topic as valid which most alternative media being with her.

I just think it's important to vet sources.

You know, it wouldn't really surprise me if she did embellish here and there. Of course that does hurt her credibility. I guess I've seen enough video of her speaking to believe that she really does want to do the right thing, that she's not really in it for the money like some others are, she genuinely cares; or at least she appears that way to me.

Anyways, cheers to the discussion.

I wish I could upvote again.

Shut it down.

[deleted]

No. It. Didn't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_8783&amp;feature=iv&amp;src_vid=POUSJm--tgw&amp;v=rVCDpL4Ax7I

Yes. It. Did.

Can you read? I was responding to it "falling into its own footprint".

Here, try again:

Fell neatly into its own footprint

No. It. Didn't.

What's your point?

My point is that building 7 obviously did not fall into its own footprint, contrary to OP's claims. I thought that was pretty clear.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_8783&amp;feature=iv&amp;src_vid=POUSJm--tgw&amp;v=rVCDpL4Ax7I

But it utterly undeniably most definitely did.

That's about freefalling, not about falling into its own footprint. How many times do I need to tell you that? Are you really that dumb?

Uhh the discussion is mostly centred around free fall but in the video you can watch, repeatedly, the building fall into its own footprint as perfectly as you can imagine. In any case the video shows clearly that Building 7 fell due to controlled demolition, which is the entire import of the footprint argument anyway...

Uhh the discussion is mostly centred around free fall

No. It's not. It's a list of all supposed "suspicious circumstances and flaws" regarding 9/11. You're trying to turn it into a discussion about freefall because you have poor reading comprehension and can't bring yourself to admit that you're wrong.

but in the video you can watch, repeatedly, the building fall into its own footprint as perfectly as you can imagine.

No, I can't. It's too far away and to blurry to make any decision on whether or not it fell exactly into its own footprint. You can't see much below the 29th floor, over 600 feet above the ground. You can't see the footprint at all.

In any case the video shows clearly that Building 7 fell due to controlled demolition

No it doesn't. It attempts to demonstrate (perhaps correctly, I haven't checked the data) that building 7 was in freefall. I does not provide enough evidence to definitively prove that it was demolished (for example, where are the demolition charges, who planted them, and when?).

for falling into its own footprint, it seemed to do a lot of damage to the surrounding buildings

Are you for real...what planet are you people from???

The kind that looks at evidence, rather than what we are told.

;)

Are you a bot?

Most of the people that argue in favor of the official story or try very hard to knock down the alternate version of events are members of /r/conspiratard For whatever reason they find it fun to make fun of us in their sub, and then come over here and either discuss or ridicule us.

Admittedly some of their members are respectful and provide some good arguments, but I wouldn't count on changing their minds much.

If so, you've just been out-argued by a bot.

Thank you for being sane.

If you're going to tell me I'm wrong, the please explain to me how I'm wrong using sources and evidence.

Nothing you've posted merits a serious response, and your demeanor suggests you wouldn't listen anyway, so...nah.

This is EXACTLY the sort of thing I was referring to.

I am truly and genuinely interested in finding out why my arguments are wrong. I don't know that I've had anybody seriously respond, much less disprove, any of my arguments about 9/11.

You're not helping.

I am truly and genuinely interested in finding out why my arguments are wrong.

It doesn't seem so. In the case of building 7 falling into its footprint you produced a sketchy photograph, claimed it indisputable evidence and ignored the video I posted which clearly shows your claim is bogus.

That video has nothing to do with falling into its footprint. The photographS I provide (there were three of them) were quite clear in showing a large amount of debris on another building. It was enough to make that building unsafe for habitation and it was taken down because of it.

Here's even more photos of the damage.

Also, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZbMfTtHkYM

http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/akrna/i_am_a_debunker_of_911_conspiracy_theories_ama/

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLD53B1326B705253D

Good post. Nice to see some sense in here.

I like the cut of your jip. I do like it how the original poster didn't bring up the thermite though. I was waiting for it. This is something that has been debunked so much.

But he did mention the old BBC report and my eyes did roll. There is not a less likely news network on the face of the planet that would be involved with a 9/11 cover up.

On the whole though, when I see all this info it does make me question things. Do you have any doubt at all Ansq?

[deleted]

If you're going to tell me I'm wrong, the please explain to me how I'm wrong using sources and evidence.

Thank you.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem

Wtc7 is all the evidence I need. Lack of any footage and the snatching of video of the Pentagon strike is also proof of complicity.

[deleted]

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/bandwagon

Of course we've seen them. That doesn't mean they help anything. It's a problem that needs to be fixed. (Yeah right.)

[deleted]

___@__ tumbleweed

I am not into the conspiracy regarding that day, since I don't believe there was one.

On a serious note, before the downvotes make me invisible. What is your purpose of doing this and what do you hope to achieve at the very end? .....Genuinly curious.

From reddiquette:

Please do [...] Vote. If you think something contributes to conversation, upvote it. If you think it does not contribute to the subreddit it is posted in or is off-topic in a particular community, downvote it.

The comment provides little to the conversation that isn't already known by most, i.e. there are plenty of people who are "not into the conspiracy" because they "don't believe there was one".

It doesn't mean that I think you're wrong. It doesn't mean that I think 9/11 conrpiracy theories are all true. *shrug*

Did you read this post? Genuinely curious.

If you haven't please do.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensationalism

The Cherry on Top Cartel.

You are missing the most important timeline. The collapse of towers. It was said that the pancaking effect was unstoppable and said the force needed to make it unstoppable was way more then needed. How did they stop and start again around the 40th and 60th floor if the math they are using for the unstoppable formula says it shouldn't have stopped?

Ewolv is right.

The Bottom of the Rabbit Hole. Reading all of this might get you on the kill list.

http://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/1k7mhj/the_bottom_of_the_rabbit_hole_reading_all_of_this/

Fuck the CIA

http://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/1k7xxv/fuck_the_cia/

And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. (Revelation 11:18, 19 KJV)

there are sites that collected all of those points for years now. there are also sites dedicated to debunk these sites. read both kinds of sites and form an opinion instead of this circlejerk.

I guess you must be too tired to post any links to specific rebuttals...

The timeline of events: Flight 77 hijacked AFTER the North Tower is hit, allowed to fly back to the Pentagon unhindered for nearly an hour, over Washington Dulles and Ronald Reagan airport airspace, and crash into the pentagon, completely unhindered.

Nobody knew Flight 77 was hijacked, there was 5000 planes in the air at the time. Just because one plane is hijacked and they are looking for that, doesn't mean all the sudden they are going to be alerted of another 400 miles away.

The NORAD drills planning for the exact same event that happened.

Not true at all. Russian bomber over Alaska was the drill that day.

Not true at all. Russian bomber over Alaska was the drill that day.

False: (1) There were multiple drills that day; (2) the NRO drill involved aircraft flying into buildings.

No, there was only one NORAD drill going on that day, the Russian bomber part of Vigilant Guardian...

The NRO is a completely different building thousands of miles away completely unrelated to NORAD.

a drill that was scheduled... that never happened... because it was canceled... and most of the people went home early... because of the attack... and what does spy satellites have to do with 9/11 anyway?

Not true at all. Russian bomber over Alaska was the drill that day\

You are right I will edit. It was the National Reconaissance Office that had a drill of a plane crashing into a skyscraper source

Nobody knew Flight 77 was hijacked

It flew over 2 major airports before it got to the pentagon, I'm not buying that at all

National Reconnaissance Office drill... that never happened... because it was canceled... and most of the people went home early... because of the attack... and what does spy satellites have to do with 9/11 anyway?

You can listen to the NORAD tapes online. You can listen for yourself when they were aware of what.

[deleted]

NORAD didn't destroy tapes.

The FAA destroyed a tape of interviews with the controllers taken the day of but after the incident.

[deleted]

some highlights from the norad tapes

• NORAD Exercises: Simply, the mention of exercises during the day debunks the myth that the gov't had no idea that they were planning something like this. They were well aware of the threats, and they were keeping the FAA and other agencies pretty busy that morning with fake stuff that led them away from the "real world" actions taking place. They aren't innocent by any means, and this proves it beyond a shadow of a doubt. They refer to "falcon" repeatdly, and eventually bring down the training planes, but not until they confused the hell out of the operators.

• The reports of the first plane: The initial reports were that either a bomb or a smaller aircraft (737) had hit the WTC, instead of American 11. American 11 was tracked after the hit, so why wasn't a better effort made to find out what really hit WTC 1? This would also explain why the first building collaped after the second tower...which was hit hours later. The plane was lighter, so the stress wasn't as great? Or...did bombs in the basement still bring those buildings down? The whole WTC is fishy. WTC 7 flat-out-stinks...but that's another story. But, why were these people seeing this for the first time on CNN anyways? How did these attacks surprise them? Aren't they supposed to know where planes are? They could all see Flight 11 on radar even after it had supposedly hit...were they all wrong?

• Phantom Flight 11: American 11 (the first plane) was tracked for about 20 minutes after it hit the WTC, they were still tracking it when someone saw on TV that the towers had been hit. The people tracking it had lat/longs, tail numbers, radar...and were very confident of what they were tracking, all after the first plane hit the WTC. They were confident that something else hit the WTC, perhaps a 737? Was there a switch with one of the planes used in the exercises? What happened to Flight 11? Why did they give up on Flight 11? Was it because of Delta 1989? Why do they all claim it was a 737, and not a 767? Why was Langley so interested in Flight 11?

• Delta Flight 1989 (89): This plane was picked up shortly after a very ominious-sounding voice from Langley talked to one of the controllers about getting info on the phantom Flight 11. All resources seem to be diverted to this "special" target...until it was suddenly switched to "friendly" after a good deal of wasted time, with nobody's approval. This plane landed in Cleveland. Is this why Cleveland Airport was evacuated? They said it was a "friendly", but they evacuated the airport...and reports say that two flights landed there and were escorted into a NASA hangar. Were these the actual planes in the "official" story being landed and hidden? Was the airport evacuated to make room for these planes? What ended up happening to this plane? Why were people so wrong about it? Was it just a diversion to take people off of Flight 11?

• Flight 93: When this flight was first picked up, there were reports of a bomb onboard. All further mention of this plane on the tapes was linked to talk about the bomb on board. It was reported "down" northeast of Camp David, not in Pennsylvania. Eyewitnesses on 9/11 say that there was a fire emergency in the federal land north of Camp David, but that the public was not able to get near enough to see what had happened. Eyewitnesses near the "official" crash site reported seeing very little debris, and not really much that would even suggest that a plane had crashed. Is this hidden site near Camp David the real resting place of Flight 93? Was the "Let's Roll" speech fake? Was there a bomb on board? Is there another crash site?

• Boston Military: Colin Scoggins from Boston had some of the consistently best intelligence through the whole operation. The female operator (who I don't know the name of) at the FCC was relying heavily on him for information, and wasn't getting any from anywhere else. Scoggins was also tracking the phantom Flight 11, and was one of the go-to guys during the early stages of the day for decent intel. He seemed to know what was happening, and seemed very calm and informed. She was often frustrated with the people in Washington she was speaking to, and actually asked someone from New York Central to talk some sense into the Washington people, because the only good information she was getting was coming from Boston. She felt that she wasn't being taken seriously, and that sentiment was echoed by others in the center. The Boston Center was shut down due to a terror threat. Was this to keep them from chasing down the info they were working, which seemed to be the best intel anyone had? Was this part of the plan? Find the people with the most information and take them out. Is that the real reason Boston shut down? They knew too much?

• Friendlies & Frustration: The controllers were so busy with 'friendlies' that they were led away from the Phantom 11 for the most critical part of the operation. When they lost the signal, got it back and lost it again, they were pulled away to a number of false-friendlies, and the controllers were even saying "Get these friendlies out of my face". They wanted to find the bad guys, but were being led around by people who wanted them to chase real ghosts. The plane in Cleveland was an example of that, and this all proves that there were many exercises going on that morning. The operators faced nothing but confusion when speaking with Washington, and frustration was rampant when it became realized that this was all "real world" and not an exercise. When they finally grounded all of the training exercises, is it possible that the real-world planes got put into that pile and were erased off the board in the confusion?

• The Pentagon: There was very little mention made of the Pentagon until they saw it on CNN. They were tracking the Phantom 11 towards Washington, but they weren't tracking much...except for Flight 77, which they tracked briefly moving AWAY from Washington. The attack took them by complete surprise, and you would have thought they should have been able to have followed that one in...Cheney and Mineta proved that theory wrong by tracking a bogey coming in from miles away. How did they know about it for so long when the FAA and NORAD didn't? They theorized that Flight 77 could have been the plane, but they can't prove it in the mess.

The official 9/11 Commission Report does not discuss Building 7

Because the report is on the attack on the Twin Towers. It's outside of the report's remit. Does it discuss any of the other WTC buildings other than WTC1 and 2?

Many of your other points are similarly flawed, but I'm beginning to wonder what the point would be of listing them all again, only to be called a paid government shill.

This is the thing, as this is discussed over and over I think both sides are getting tired of hearing each other's argument because neither side is willing to budge despite evidence given.

Perhaps we are at an impasse in regards to arguing for or against conspiracy on 9/11?

It certainly seems that way.

Does anyone know how this ties into Princess Diana

[deleted]

And you are wanting Truth?

Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney in 2005 at a Congressional Hearing: "Mr. Secretary: according to the Comptroller General of the United States, there are serious financial management problems at the Pentagon, to which Mr. Cooper alluded.

Fiscal Year 1999: $2.3 trillion missing.

Fiscal Year 2000, $1.1 trillion missing.

And DoD is the number one reason why the government can't balance its checkbook."

and then there is the fascinating story of Egyptian Ali Muhammed, only tangentially related but thoroughly interesting nonetheless.

He was a part of the fundamentalist military unit that assassinated Egyptian President Anwar Sadat in 1981. In 1984, he was hired by the CIA, though they claim that their relationship was short-lived. He would soon join the military and become a member of the Green Berets, and serve as a drill sergeant at Fort Bragg while providing clandestine training to jihadists such as Mahmud Abaouhalima, convicted perpetrator of the 1993 World Trade Center bombings.

He would take a short leave from his military duties and travel to Afghanistan in 1988 to assist the Mujahideen, returning just months later.

In the early 1990's he would return to Afghanistan and began training jihadists with the skills he had learned at Fort Bragg. According to former FBI special agent Jack Cloonan, in an interview with PBS, his first training session included Osama bin Laden, as well as Ayman al-Zawahiri, the current leader of Al Qaeda.

Former Directors of Counter-terrorism at the National Security Council have alleged that Muhammed took maps and training materials from Fort Bragg and used them to write the Al Qaeda terrorist training manual.

His superior at Fort Bragg, Lt. Col. Robert Anderson, has stated that “I think you or I would have a better chance of winning the Powerball lottery, than an Egyptian major in the unit that assassinated Sadat would have getting a visa, getting to California, getting into the Army and getting assigned to a Special Forces unit. That just doesn’t happen.”

Elsewhere he stated that "It was unthinkable that an ordinary American GI would go unpunished after fighting in a foreign war," and that he assumed that Muhammed was sponsored by the CIA.

On 9/11 it took three minutes for NORAD to put fighters on alert.

Payne Stewart's Jet took an hour and 20 minutes to intercept. The original article missed the time zone difference.

Flight 175 crashed about a minute after flight controllers notified NORAD that it was hijacked. How were they supposed to look for a plane that they didn't even know was hijacked?

Flight 77 crashed before the FAA notified NORAD that it was hijacked. So how were they supposed look for a plane that they didn't know was hijacked?

the National Reconaissance Office " was planning an exercise last Sept. 11 in which an errant aircraft would crash into one of its buildings."

*due to mechanical failure

that never happened... because it was canceled... and most of the people went home early... because of the attack... and what does spy satellites have to do with 9/11 anyway?

This is EXACTLY the sort of thing I was referring to.

I am truly and genuinely interested in finding out why my arguments are wrong. I don't know that I've had anybody seriously respond, much less disprove, any of my arguments about 9/11.

You're not helping.

I asked above, but haven't received an answer yet, so I'll ask you. What do you hope to gain by researching all hese conspiracies? I mean, what is the end goal for you guys?

There is a really good BBC documentary called the Power of Nightmares (I think)- that sadly isn't available online anymore as far as I know-- in which they essentially show that Al Qaeda as an organization does not even exist. It was basically made up by the CIA.

I won't post again.

I don't see how those two smallish buildings are remotely comparable with the WTC towers.

I'll be glad to answer you, and I'll take the opportunity to tell a little bit more about that buildings and the U.S. embassy two blocks away.

First of all, these buildings are old, they were built in 1984 I think. They were highly damaged during the Yugoslavian war in 1990s. (here's the picture of the tower after the battle for Sarajevo was over, another one and another one). The buildings were built ten years after the World Trade Center, using World Trade Center as a model. There was even a fire in one of the towers during the war, but the buildings survived without collapsing. The American embassy was built after the battle for the Sarajevo. The war was still going strong. The year was 1994. Obviusly the Americans were impressed that the building survived.

Wikipedia says that the American intelligence analysts became concerned that Arab immigrants in Bosnia and Herzegovina planned to attack the US Embassy in Sarajevo just after 9/11, and, as a part of that attack, crash into those towers. (source). As I've pointed out in my previous post, there are evidences that the FBI agents inspected those towers, but not after the 9/11, before. And not once, a couple of times, last inspection was on the September 1st, ten days before planes crashed into WTC. Six men were even arrested because they were "connected to AlQuaida and planned that attack". Of course, there were no evidences, US admitted that and they were released from Guantanamo in 2008. So, they've spent seven years in Guantanamo for nothing. The story was not covered by the mainstream media.

In 2011., there was a minor "terrorist attack" on the U.S. embassy (here's the report from the FBI], basically nothing more than one guy with a machine gun and he didn't manage to kill nobody. Funny thing is he just walked inside the embassy. Through the main gate. With a shotgun. Nothing suspicious at all. Nobody even tried to stop him. During the trial, he said that he did that because the U.S. planted the bomb in the infrastructure of those two towers during the war. According to him, the bombs were planted while the towers were reconstructed (so between 1994 and 1998). The bomb was never found, nobody even looked for them. Ever. And he had some evidences to support that claim, but still... nothing. According to AlJazeera Balkan, that was nothing more than a "propaganda". The rest of the media just followed what AlJazeera reported. He's serving 10 years in prison here in Bosnia now. Nine to go.

That's pretty much all I know. So I have to say that in my opinion these two towers are VERY much connected to the 9/11.

Actually many of the 'hijackers' named by the FBI are still alive. Ever heard the term 'an orgy of evidence'?

You are right. According to this article from 2002, Cheney authorized the shoot down of the Shanksville flight while military personnel were tracking it: fter the planes struck the twin towers, a third took a chunk out of the Pentagon. Cheney then heard a report that a plane over Pennsylvania was heading for Washington. A military assistant asked Cheney twice for authority to shoot it down. http://archives.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/09/11/ar911.king.cheney/ "The vice president said yes again," remembered Josh Bolton, deputy White House chief of staff. "And the aide then asked a third time. He said, 'Just confirming, sir, authority to engage?' And the vice president -- his voice got a little annoyed then -- said, 'I said yes.'"

8:34 Boston contacts NORAD about Flight 11 being hijacked

8:37 NORAD puts fighters on alert

8:47 Flight 11 hits north tower; Fighters just taking off... fighter parked off long island because they are unsure where Flight 11 is

9:01 NY Controllers notice Flight 175 is off course

9:03 NY Controllers call NORAD to tell them about 175

9:03 Flight 175 crashes into the south tower

9:15 Controllers in Washington are told flight 77 is missing by Indianapolis

9:32 DC Controllers call NORAD and tell them Flight 77 is missing

9:37 Flight 77 crashes into Pentagon

9:28 Cleavland loses contact with Flight 93

9:43 Herndon (VA) controller calls the FAA and tells them United 93 is not responding and is off course

10:00 A pilot sees Flight 93 rocking its wings reports it

10:03 Flight 93 crashes

10:14 Controllers call NORAD and tell Flight 93 is down

It is all on tape here:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/09/08/nyregion/911-tapes.html

I'm glad!

I think it is natural, to an extent. But I don't think that means it's unchangeable or inevitable. hierarchies tend to exacerbate this and working to undo hierarchies and replace them with horizontal structures would hopefully do a lot to overcome it.

there are a lot of examples of good, too. people that are trying to do something about this, that are just interested in getting along with folk and enjoying the time they have with their family and friends.

the dancing israelis that were deported. don't forget that one.

google dr judy wood for shit your pants material on this subject.

The woman has done an amazing job of finding evidence. Just have a look through her website and you can add another 20 pages to this. haha

There's free copies of the book online. Ruppert spends most of the book running through the evidence and keeping conjecture to himself. In the final chapter he gives a succint version of his opinion of what happened and who was running the show (spoiler alert: cheney et al + elements of other governments). Crossing the Rubicon is the most well researched book on this topic I have come across. His chapter on PROMIS software is more relevant now then when the book came out due to recent NSA drama.

The only evidence I have is my recollection that I saw that picture, actually 2 pictures, somewhere out there on the interwebs. But regardless, doesn't it at least beg the question, if all we've ever seen is one side of the building?

Various parties. If there was one guy that you could put in jail over all others, going by the evidence presented in the book: Dick Cheney. It's quite complicated to place real blame, as massive portions of it were obviously heavily compartmentalised, but there are a few specific names that come out as being the guys you'd want sat in orange jumpsuits in a courtroom. PNAC would be the group that you'd probably focus most attention on if you were looking for a group of people who would likely have actually discussed this between themselves. Ruppert called them a "government in waiting". And someone made sure they were "waiting", and not "hoping". But again, the blame doesn't stop there.

Yes, the Israelis (Mossad), had involvement, but as far as this book goes, the involvement was fairly minimal. From what i recall (i need to read it again at some point), the suspicion is that those agents inside the US were basically keeping an eye on the hijackers. I don't want to say any more than that, as my memory sucks and i'll probably get something wrong, but there was a motive for the surveillance - i'd have to go back to the book to give you any more details.

I'm not sure where the criticism of her credibility here is?

Is it the self published book? I'm willing to bet many publishers would not touch her given the ongoing litigation.

Is it the fact that she only had 6 months experience at the FBI? She was recruited by them specifically because of her language skills.

Otherwise, I cannot see anything based on what you wrote which is a valid criticism of her legitimacy.

If you haven't already check out the free ebook "9/11--The Deception that Changed the World" by Chris Bollyn. It's available on his site <bollyn.com>.

Also very interesting--have you heard about the Gomel Chesed Cemetery incident? A Jewish man, months before 9/11, watched a meet-up in the cemetery while hiding. The people talked (in Hebrew) about how America would cave to Israeli demands "once the twins were destroyed in September."

He tried to alert the FBI (IIRC) three times and was dismissed as a crackpot.

Nothing defied the "laws of physics".

ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Your understanding of the event is incomplete which is why you have "inconsistencies".

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Its even funnier the second time!
From the man who claims a paper passport can survive a jetfuel explosion strong enough to collapse and entire steel framed structure. Lets build building out of passports, since they seem to be more reliable and fire resistant than concrete and steel! hilarious!

it clear by your blatant avoidance of the rest of my comment and focus on 3 words i said, that you have no leg to stand on. Go away, and dont contaminate the gene pool

Edmonds is treated as an oracle of government secrets & her analysis is almost universally praised in alternative media when her credentials do not merit or validate her expertise.

One MAJOR point that what is consistently missed by the hype and fawning over her is that she blew the whistle on the FBI's abysmal internal investigation practices related to handling one employee's concerns about another employee.

While she should be commended for being the catalyst for the FBI reforming these practices. However, her actions were not privy to or revealing of anything that would provide her with unique, specific information on 9-11 which is what she claims.

Considering her entire professional career experience prior to her six months with the FBI was: volunteering at a local courthouse as a special advocate for children and volunteering for the Rostropovich foundation; and by examining her duties while with the FBI it is clear that she lacked access to the information she claims and that she did NOT blow the whistle on anything related to 9/11 as she claims.

No you are correct, she did not blow the whistle on anything 9/11 related, except to say that she had seen some suspicious documents while doing translating.

You don't like her, that's ok, I think she's ok, that should be ok too.

As far as her credentials: In the aftermath of 9/11 the security state shifted gears and went into overdrive. They were hiring all over the place. She happened to be fluent in the languages they required, therefore qualified for the job. She was not an analyst, she was not a field agent, she was employed simply to translate. While she was doing this she may or may not have seen some shady stuff regarding 9/11.

What I can tell you is that the foreign languages division is near always the most sensitive department of an intelligence organization, it has a huge potential for abuse (read: falsifying information/manipulating translations) It would not surprise me if she had seen a lot of different things there that would shock anyone.

You know, it wouldn't really surprise me if she did embellish here and there. Of course that does hurt her credibility. I guess I've seen enough video of her speaking to believe that she really does want to do the right thing, that she's not really in it for the money like some others are, she genuinely cares; or at least she appears that way to me.

Anyways, cheers to the discussion.