The aftermath?

Pointless wars, homeland security, rising police state of America.

The video of George Bush describing how he watched the first plane hit on live TV before he went into the classroom.

The steel beams right after a twin tower collapses. The ones which are protruding vertically through the rubble.

Building 7.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHKgMssSIEk

And the film 'Press for Truth'

www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMT2CHSvyGw

The above.

Freefall speeds of a building without core structural damage.

Absolutely Building 7. The vast majority of the population has no idea it exists. Show them that it fell the same way in the same time period as the initial towers that WERE struck and they can have nothing to say.

Shanksville and Pentagon: You have never seen 'Planes' crashing, crashed, or swept up into a pile at either site.

NORAD and almost all FAA protocols not being followed during the first moments something was off. Especially noting the precedents set prior to 9/11 when even small aircraft deviated from their flight plan, lost communication, or flew over restricted airspace. Its hard to believe the total incompetency.

There were no NORAD protocols or protections or monitoring. NORAD is about protecting America and Canada from outside threats coming from over the pole or overseas. It does not monitor the American and Canadian interior. Had the hijacked jetliners come from Europe or Asia, NORAD would have been watching them.

The standard protocol before 9/11 was to say "Yes sir, anything you say sir." to the hijackers and cooperate completely. Because sooner or later they'd have to land, and the special forces in several countries had an excellent record of making sure that they never took off again.

Once the first jetliner hit the first tower and everyone knew that the rules had changed, it was too late.

I beg to differ, sir.

http://www.rutgerslawreview.com/2011/2-protocols-for-responding-to-hijackings/

Take a look at this.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Aerospace_Defense_Command

and that.

Neither link disagrees with what I wrote. The first shows how the FAA would have notified NORAD, which would have (had there been time) provided "a covert escort (a "shadow") for the aircraft until it landed safely at an airport." And that's all.

As for NORAD, it was one layer of command of the airspace. For example on 9/11 it was a Canadian general with NORAD that ordered American and Canadian airspace to be shut down.

But that was not the same as monitoring the interior the same way they did for the areas around America and Canada. As the Wikipedia entry on NORAD says, with a citation to NORAD itself:

"After the September 11, 2001 attacks, the NORAD Air Warning Center's mission "expanded to include the interior airspace of North America."

After the September 11, 2001 attacks, the NORAD Air Warning Center's mission "expanded to include the interior airspace of North America."

I missed that part. Good eye, sir.

However, the controversial point i was making is the protocol was not followed. At least not in any competent fashion. The official report has the timeline of when certain officials were notified, and when they shot up the notifications to their superiors, and so on.

The problem is, there were previous examples of planes who deviated from course, lost communication, flew into restricted airspace prior 9/11, and the response time was very fast. Yet, on 9/11, there wasnt an immediate response like there was previously. Some call it incompetency. I choose to not believe that during this one moment of incompetency was the one moment that the biggest terrorist attack in our history was to be made, and its all an unfortunate coincidence. Especially seeing how many layers of incompetency must have happened to arrive at this result.

There have been some very fast responses to aircraft wandering into Washington DC airspace, SINCE 9/11. (The Washington, DC Metropolitan Area Special Flight Rules Area was created after, replacing the much larger and less manageable ADIZ that existed before.)

And pre-9/11 there were fast responses to aircraft deviating from their course when approaching North America - because that's where NORAD was watching, and where they had aircraft to scramble.

Meanwhile, a small aircraft still managed to hit the White House in 1994.

Digression: Tom Clancy released the novel Debt of Honor in 1994, which ended with someone flying a Boeing 747 into the U.S. Capitol building during a special joint session of Congress, killing the president, nearly the entire Congress, the Supreme Court, and many other senior members of the Federal Government.

That small aircraft bounced across the White House lawn a week later, killing the pilot when it hit the White House but doing very little damage.

In 1999 Tom Clancy released Rainbow Six (the novel, not the game), which started with an airline hijacking. Check out that first chapter. It does a good job of explaining why (pre-9/11) simply cooperating with the hijackers until they landed - and THEN taking them out - was standard protocol.

Digression 2: Check out this New York Times story from the morning of 9/11, shortly before the planes hit. In 1971 a guy hijacked an airliner to Cuba. 30 years later a cop Googled his name, and found him in New York. New York police threw him in jail, hours before the planes hit. Timing doesn't get much worse than that.

Anyway... The interior pre-9/11 example that many people use is the Learjet crash that killed pro golfer Payne Stewart and his agents. (Apparently all on board were incapacitated due to lack of oxygen.) Because an F-16 intercepted it, claims are made that the same should happened with the 9/11 aircraft.

But an F-16 didn't intercept Stewart's Learjet until over an hour after air traffic controllers knew there was a problem. And even then, only because a test pilot happened to be in the air nearby. Like with an

Sounds to me like you've never heard of the NORAD Tapes.

What do the tapes change?

Even in the tapes, the first notification received by NORAD - that Flight 11 had been hijacked - is at 8:37am. At 8:46am Two F-15 fighter jets are ordered to scramble from Otis Air National Guard Base in Massachusetts, intended to intercept Flight 11 - despite not knowing where to find Flight 11 because it's transponder was turned off. Once airborne the pilots spend the next several minutes watching their radar screens in anticipation of Flight 11 returning a radar contact. But Flight 11 had already hit the tower at 8:46 am.

No notice was given to NORAD about any of the other flights before they crashed. Your article does not dispute this.

At 9:03am NORAD was notified of the hijacking of Flight 175, at the same time it crashes.

NOW they're concerned about additional hijackings, and they start to discuss the possibility of shooting down an aircraft. They have only four armed fighters to work with, circling above the ocean off Long Island, and the two in Virginia at Langley. Too far away.

At 9:21 in the tapes, 9:24 in the timeline, NORAD is notified of another possible hijacking. But they thought it was Flight 11 - which had already crashed in New York. The first sign of Flight 77 is found on radar at 9:32am. It hits the Pentagon at 9:37am.

Even according to your story about the tapes, at this point "the fighters have no chance. They're about 150 miles away, according to radar analysis done later."

Meanwhile the first sign of a hijacking from Flight 93 comes at 9:32. It crashes at 10:03am.

NEADS, controlling the only set of fighters over Washington, first learns of the hijacking of Flight 93, 4 minutes after it actually crashed. At 10:10am, NEADS emphatically tells fighter pilots over Washington, "Negative clearance to shoot." At 10:20am President Bush, aboard Air Force One, tells Vice President Cheney that he has authorized a shootdown of aircraft if necessary.

Again, what do the tapes change?

This myth that NORAD or the FAA didn't know where the planes were because they switched off their transponder needs to stop. When a plane switches off it's transponder, it doesn't turn invisible. You just don't see what the planes ID is. Radar would be useless if it could only see planes with transponders.

That is in fact how modern Air Traffic Control radar works.

Even 18 years earlier when the "Gimli Glider" - a Boeing 767 - ran out of fuel and most of its avionics shut down in mid flight, it simply disappeared from radar. (Luckily Winnipeg ATC still had it's old Doppler radar, which they managed to get up and running.)

Of course defense radar like NORAD's did not require transponders. But NORAD's Northeast Air Defense Sector (NEADS) faced the opposite problem. The NORAD Tapes article above explains:

Radar is the neads controllers' most vital piece of equipment, but by 9/11 the scopes were so old, among other factors, that controllers were ultimately unable to find any of the hijacked planes in enough time to react. Known collectively as the Green Eye for the glow the radar rings give off, the scopes looked like something out of Dr. Strangelove and were strikingly anachronistic compared with the equipment at civilian air-traffic sites. (After 9/11, neads was equipped with state-of-the-art equipment.)

In order to find a hijacked airliner—or any airplane—military controllers need either the plane's beacon code (broadcast from an electronic transponder on board) or the plane's exact coordinates. When the hijackers on American 11 turned the beacon off, intentionally losing themselves in the dense sea of airplanes already flying over the U.S. that morning (a tactic that would be repeated, with some variations, on all the hijacked flights), the neads controllers were at a loss.

"You would see thousands of green blips on your scope," Nasypany told me, "and now you have to pick and choose. Which is the bad guy out there? Which is the hijacked aircraft? And without that information from F.A.A., it's a needle in a haystack." At this point in the morning, more than 3,000 jetliners are already in the air over the continental United States...

The FAA, NORAD, and the Secret Service all admitted that they knew where all of the high jacked planes were and all have done so on camera. I've seen all of the interviews. I don't care enough to track down all of the links. The Secret Service had their own radar system, as well as their own missiles and could have shot down American 77 but didn't. But they stated on camera that they watched it heading for Washington DC.

You can take a whole lot out of context from both timelines above, and get what you wrote.

They knew where the planes were UNTIL they disappeared from ATC radar - and found them again in a couple cases when it was too late.

Yes, as noted above, ATC found Flight 77 and watched it approach Washington for five minutes before it hit the Pentagon. Again, there was nothing anyone could do about it.

And while I very highly doubt that the Secret Service had their own radar, they did indeed have Stinger missiles on the roof of the White House. But no, they could never have shot down Flight 77. A Stinger just doesn't have the range.

As noted elsewhere in this thread, Tom Clancy released the novel Debt of Honor in 1994, which ended with someone flying a Boeing 747 into the U.S. Capitol building during a special joint session of Congress, killing the president, nearly the entire Congress, the Supreme Court, and many other senior members of the Federal Government. (A week later in real life a small aircraft hit the White House killing the pilot when it hit the White House but doing very little damage.)

In that scene the folks on the roof manage to launch a Stinger - the aircraft was MUCH closer than the Pentagon - and take out an engine on the 747. It makes no difference whatsoever.

According to the Secret Service Agent they interviewed, he stated that he watched the plane on radar approaching Washington DC. Not only does the White House have missiles but the Pentagon has missiles as well. One of them could have fired missiles to hit the plane, if in fact there was a plane to fire on. According to multiple witnesses in and around the Pentagon, an airliner did not hit the Pentagon. A smaller, business class sized plane, exploded over the Pentagon Helipad. You can see the damage in many of the videos from the Pentagon that day. In the overhead shots, look at where the supposed airliner impact point is and then look to the left of that and you can see where the plane exploded.

According to the Secret Service Agent they interviewed, he stated that he watched the plane on radar approaching Washington DC.

I'd like to see a citation on WHERE he was when he watched this.

but the Pentagon has missiles as well.

Not before 9/11.

According to multiple witnesses in and around the Pentagon, an airliner did not hit the Pentagon.

According to multiple witnesses in and around the Pentagon, an airliner did indeed hit the Pentagon.

Behind the Smoke Curtain - The 9/11 Pentagon Attack - Barbara Honeggor http://youtu.be/wRQ9r5Vc9-o

The Pentagon's Missile Defense System was installed in the Reagan and Bush I Terms. It was part of a $130 Billion Dollar Missile Defense Program. These sophisticated military systems were designed to detect missiles fired from unknown locations at over 13,000 mph and shoot them down in mere minutes. They did not rely on FAA Radar and they were designed to hit a target the size of an oil drum.

Citation?

Everything about building 7

Pools of molten steel

Confiscated security footage

An army of trucks sent immediately to gather up the debris

Debris being shipped all over the world without being examined

The convenience of having all incriminating documents destroyed in building 7 and the financial wing of the pentagon

NORAD being sabotaged

The establishment of the official story on DAY 1

I could go on

seismic data

http://youtu.be/aAMnpYxJtVQ the video is a tad longer than the requested 2 minutes, pick any part and it will do or simply watch minutes 1 to 3.

I wish they talked more about what could have done that to the building

yes, we all do.

thing is this shows there was no complete collapse, but one giant dissolving force. good enough for me.

the towers went down alright, but large portions went up in dust. one day we'll know, until then it's everybody's incentive to investigate.

I just show people the official story. It's so laughable that people tend to think I'm lying. It's really all you need to convince people that something just aint right about the whole thing. Let them figure it out on their own after that.

5 dancing Israelis

The only piece of evidence that no one can explain scientifically apart from naming them "special fires"; the 3 office furniture fires that last for 100 days under heavy rain and the fire department constant hosing, despite the fact that 1 of the buildings was immensely smaller and had the same duration.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/dec/20/september11.usa

Call it any special fire that you want but in the real world office furniture fire cannot last for 100 days or else we would have the most efficient and cheap fuel in history.

Another evidence that can be used, NIST's entire work on the 911 report(s) is completely hypothetical, something that many seem to forget but eagerly accept it entirely. Due to the "swift and fast" debris cleanup of one of the major crime scenes in the US, NIST and other investigators had little to no access to the evidence and conducted their own report(s) on attempts to make it "look" like the real scenario. Twice. (Report and Final report)

They also used models lacking the real buildings properties (windows, walls, columns and connections) and added fictional raging fires at certain key locations.

Proof of this: They refuse to share the data they used in all their reports - http://cryptome.org/nist070709.pdf

To me the above are 2 incontrovertible evidence that proves the 9/11 conspiracy.

FEMA did an analysis of some of the steel from building 7:

A) http://www.fema.gov/pdf/library/fema403_apc.pdf

If you read "C.5 Summery for Sample 2" you will see that it perfectly describes what thermite or nano-thermite would do.

The FEMA PHD's in material science could not figure out what caused the melted steel. They did not analyse for explosives of accelerants. They asked that there be further study to determine what caused the melting. Take a wild guess if there was further study done.

Look at the photos of the samples in that pdf especially the first and second photos.

Next look at the thermite experiment that this guy did in this video @10 minutes 35 seconds.

B) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNOM_U5UM6Q#t=10m34s

The FEMA sample (A) and the steel cut by thermite in the video (B) look almost identical.

Also look at the color of the smoke in the video and then look at the color of the smoke that blasts out of the windows ahead of the crashing towers on 911. The color is identical.

The connections between members of the Bush administration, PNAC, the Carlyle Group, the Bin Laden family, the Saudi Royal family, and oil supplies in the Middle East. Add to that peak oil worries at the time and Dick Cheney's energy task force, and you get a pretty good picture of what went on.

There are honestly probably more "smoking gun" type things out there, but anyone who believes all this was a big coincidence is in complete denial. The insider trading would be another top one.

The Patriot Act.

2.5 seconds of free fall for #7. The tower pulverizing as it fell.

They didn't even tell the truth about the quality of the air to breathe, what makes people think that they were telling the truth about what actually happened?

The NORAD drill

[deleted]

Which of course is not even remotely true, no matter how often the troofers repeat the lie.

The Delft University of Technology, Architecture School collapsed in a pancake reaction due to a fire.

"Let me repeat that .... the School Of Architecture. I'm highly doubtful they built a deficient building for themselves. Steel frame high rise building collapses and is utterly destroyed by a fire begun by a shorted out coffee pot."

In 1997 three four story buildings at the Kader Toy Factory in Singapore caught fire. All three collapsed from fire alone in under three hours.

The steel framed McCormick Center was at the time the World's largest exhibition center. It like the WTC used long steel trusses to create a large open space without columns. In 1976 it collapsed only 30 minutes after the start of a small electrical fire.

In 1997 the Sight and Sound Theater in Strasburg, Pennsylvania collapsed during a fire. It too used a rigid steel-frame construction.

In addition I REMEMBER the fire at the Interstate Bank Building in Los Angeles. It made the news here in Canada - during the fire - because of fears that it would collapse. They actually had a time limit that the building was rated for - how many minutes it was guaranteed to withstand a fire before the columns weakened to the point of collapse.

(Underwriters Laboratory does testing on how long steel trusses will last before losing their structural strength. (One article has a remarkable photo of steel beams and girders sagging after a fire.)

The 1991 One Meridian Plaza fire in Philadelphia was the same story. Firefighters evacuated the building when a pancake structural collapse was considered likely. "All interior firefighting efforts were halted after almost 11 hours of uninterrupted fire in the building. Consultation with a structural engineer and structural damage observed by units operating in the building led to the belief that there was a possibility of a pancake structural collapse of the fire damaged floors."

(citations and more examples of steel frame building collapses in fires)

As for Building 7, in all the history of high-rise fires, not one has ever been left for 6-7 hours with its bottom floors on fire with major structural damage from another building collapse.

2 points that people like you, that use the Delft school as an example to "debunk" the wtc collapse, need to understand:

1 - The building did not pancake completely when the floors collapsed, WTC7 did. In both buildings there were fires that started on other sections and then the fires were focused on one section of the building, if what NIST told was true then what should have happened to WTC7 was this:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=750_1380924546

2 - The section of the school that collapsed was 13 story tall and took ~10s. The twin towers were 110 story tall took ~15s. The WTC7 was 47 story tall took ~7s.

Do you understand what your example shows? It shows that no building collapses due to partial failure nor does it fall so fast when it finds resistance in its path.

You end up saying that "(...)not one has ever been left for 6-7 hours(...)" and all I can think of is buildings that sustained larger fires by a great margin and did not fall and instead last as long as the fires could:

Windsor tower - Despite being engulfed by fire on almost all floors, it only collapsed partially like physics teaches us

Mandarin Oriental/Beijing tower - Did not collapse

First Interstate Bank tower - Despite the raging fires at the lower section the building did not pancake

Now to your other "examples":

• The Kader toy factory : you just copy pasted the same thing this person (KennyJC) wrote here http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?84951-9-11-Conspiracy-Thread-%28There-can-be-only-one!%29/page15

The fire was not in 1997 but 1993 and it wasn't in Singapore but in Thailand and it was only a flat wide 4 story tall factory.

This example is completely irrelevant here and you would know if you didn't just copy paste anything you find on the internet without some research.

• The McCormick Center fire : Yet another example that does not fit here and it didn't even pancake, it only collapsed partially.

• Sight and Sound Theater in Strasburg : This is getting ridiculous, you are using all terrible examples of buildings (structures) that contain a steel frame structure that is strong enough to support the roofs and walls, not only that but those examples contain highly volatile elements that increased the strength of the fires inside.

I'm sorry but you showed nothing worth as example apart from the Delft school and the interstate bank.

Here is how one example has to be:

-First Interstate Bank tower, just like WTC7, had raging fires on 5 floors below 75% of its weight, did not collapse, the structure did not "sag"

You can see the Delft building only partly collapsed, a very small portion of the whole, and it wasn't a "pancake" collapse. Vertical supports gave way. And why did you put that sentence in quotes? I dont know any more about it than that.

The McCormick building was a warehouse structure, like most convention centers. Exposed beams, huge open spaces. Totally unlike an office building. The Kader factory was a cheap structure in a third-world nation, filled with petroleum products and natural fabrics. The Sight and Sound theatre was again unlike the trade centers, was undergoing renovations, and was built without sprinkler systems. Had it had functional sprinklers and proper fire emergency procedures been followed, it would likely have survived.

Not that any of this matters except insofar as these instances are very much different from what occurred at the trade centers.

The Delft building and the others also did not have the weight of many more stories on top of them. They didn't have massive structural damage from airliner impacts or other collapsing buildings in addition to the fires. That includes destroying the sprinkler system and exposing the beams (let alone destroying them_ on the floors where the fires were. The Delft building did have a pancake collapse, thankfully of just one wing.

Yes, some matters were different, but that would also negate the "only steel-framed buildings" claim.

Easy; WTC 7 collapsing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LD06SAf0p9A

A video that shows a controlled demolition on one side and building 7 on the other.

http://imgur.com/c13fv6w

Tell me how core columns 2 inches thick get cut like this? http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/arch/core.html

How strict and things became after including the pointless wars, building 7 for sure, the actor that got interviewed on FOX news (it's crazy how obvious it is) and the Dancing Israelis but there's more

Dancing Israelis?

Look it up its weird stuff

Dancing Israelis

"Our Purpose Was To Document The Event"

Or you can believe sites set up specifically to parrot the official version of events like 911myths.com.

http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Dancing_Israelis

I'd show them the 20 foot pile of smoldering ash and ask, where are the other one hundred floors that fell? Where did the buildings go?

The WTC's "bathtub" foundation was something like seven stories deep. That got largely filled by rubble. Despite this the rubble pile above ground was a lot more than 20 feet high. And spread out over a much wider area than the original footprints of the towers.

The man who paid the 'terrorists' expenses was sitting with our main intelligence officers, Bob Graham and Porter Goss, at the U.S. Capitol Building eating breakfast with them as the planes hit the towers.

He was not arrested or questioned. He left on his own and retired.

Mahmoud Ahmad who ordered the payment of $100,000 to Mohamed Atta was the chief of the Pakistani ISI.

The ISI had been the paymaster and main link between Al Qaeda and the CIA since their outset under G.H.W.Bush in the mid 1980's.

Goss and Graham subsequently investigated themselves over that meeting among others and found a cloak but no dagger, according to them.

Too many links available to pick from.

edit, Here's a taste.

The meeting Agence France-Presse October 10, 2001 http://s3.amazonaws.com/911timeline/2001/afp101001.html

The Meeting Washington Post " A cloak but no dagger"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A36091-2002May17

THE MEETING GLOBAL RESEARCH FULL STORY. http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/KUP209A.html

Associated Press item dated May 30, 2002.

"The morning of Sept. 11, Sen. Bob Graham and Rep. Porter Goss were doing what the two intelligence committee chairmen frequently do - having breakfast together at the Capitol. With them was then-Pakistani intelligence chief [Mahmud Ahmad]. [General Ahmad's] task was to persuade Afghanistan's Taliban leaders to hand over terror suspect Osama bin Laden. As the three men talked over the knotty problem, an aide handed Goss a note saying an airplane had hit the World Trade Center. A few moments later the Capitol would be evacuated, and the following month [General Ahmad] was fired."

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The Pentagon.

Finding the passport of one of the hijackers. The fact that many of the supposed Hijackers are still alive. The "Lone Gun Man Episode."

There have been some very fast responses to aircraft wandering into Washington DC airspace, SINCE 9/11. (The Washington, DC Metropolitan Area Special Flight Rules Area was created after, replacing the much larger and less manageable ADIZ that existed before.)

And pre-9/11 there were fast responses to aircraft deviating from their course when approaching North America - because that's where NORAD was watching, and where they had aircraft to scramble.

Meanwhile, a small aircraft still managed to hit the White House in 1994.

Digression: Tom Clancy released the novel Debt of Honor in 1994, which ended with someone flying a Boeing 747 into the U.S. Capitol building during a special joint session of Congress, killing the president, nearly the entire Congress, the Supreme Court, and many other senior members of the Federal Government.

That small aircraft bounced across the White House lawn a week later, killing the pilot when it hit the White House but doing very little damage.

In 1999 Tom Clancy released Rainbow Six (the novel, not the game), which started with an airline hijacking. Check out that first chapter. It does a good job of explaining why (pre-9/11) simply cooperating with the hijackers until they landed - and THEN taking them out - was standard protocol.

Digression 2: Check out this New York Times story from the morning of 9/11, shortly before the planes hit. In 1971 a guy hijacked an airliner to Cuba. 30 years later a cop Googled his name, and found him in New York. New York police threw him in jail, hours before the planes hit. Timing doesn't get much worse than that.

Anyway... The interior pre-9/11 example that many people use is the Learjet crash that killed pro golfer Payne Stewart and his agents. (Apparently all on board were incapacitated due to lack of oxygen.) Because an F-16 intercepted it, claims are made that the same should happened with the 9/11 aircraft.

But an F-16 didn't intercept Stewart's Learjet until over an hour after air traffic controllers knew there was a problem. And even then, only because a test pilot happened to be in the air nearby. Like with an