Went to Israel. Then I went across the wall to Palestine. Realized everything was a lie.

Hold up. Explain?

I drove across Sinai from Cairo, which is crumbling. Sheep on the streets, buildings falling down, giant slums, poor education, nice food only for the very rich, streets covered in garbage, majority of the country is poor.

Went to Israel. Saw a city much like any city in Europe. Clean streets. Beautiful big store fronts. Sidewalks. Nice signs telling you where to go. Little stands and shops everywhere. Great food from around the world. Pastries, pizza. It was Europe, basically. I loved it. It was very clean! It was great.

You have to drive some distance out of Jerusalem to get to the wall. It is a nice drive past pastures and rolling hills with bushes and trees on them.

The wall is very tall. It is made of concrete. At the top there are guard posts with glass. There is barbed wire, even though the wall is far too high to get over. There are men with guns.

When you go through it, you are asked many questions about who you are and where you come from. If you have anything Arab about you this questioning is very long it can take several hours. You are brought through many layers of security, the inside of the wall is like a fort. You go back and force through a maze of metal bars, with many security cameras watching you. The bars look like the bars used to hold cattle at a rodeo.

You exit and on the other side is a tall wire fence covered with barbed wire. There is graffiti all over the wall. The buildings are crumbling. Noo nice food, streets made of dirt, everyone is poor.

There are men waiting to be taxi drivers, I went with one. He showed me an ID card with a picture of a baby on it. He told me a story.

"This is my son. You know how I got this card?"

"My son was born with a problem in his arm, and they said that if his arm wasn't operated on he would lose the arm. We don't have that kind of hospital here, so I have to go across into Jerusalem to see the doctor. So I go to the Fence."

"The man at the fence won't let me through. He says that I can't bring through any person without a card. He is referring to my son, who is a new born. He didn't have a card."

"So I say to him, where do I get the card? He says you must get the card in Jerusalem."

"I say let me through then I will get the card and leave my son with my wife. He says that won't work, a person must be present to have fingerprints and a photo and so on in order to get the card."

"I say how will my son get the card if he cannot travel through the fence to get the card?"

"He told me I was holding up the line, and my son never got the surgery, he lost his arm."

He passed me the card, he said it was fake, and he didn't have the courage to try it out, because you could be put in prison for such a thing. He had to choose between making his son grow up without an arm or without a father. The card was so poorly done. It was obviously fake.

We got up to the top of this hill, and he pointed out at these buildings coming over the hills, he said they were settlements, and they took over 3 more hills in the last few months. These were very nice buildings. Developments.

I went back to Israel that night, and I went to a waffle store. They had every kind of waffle. Chocolate waffle, ice cream waffle, Nutella. Anything. Any kind of fruit and so on. The taxis are really nice there they have meters, they don't clunk when they start. The monuments are lit up at night. There are little plaques at every monument that tell you the history in English and Hebrew and Russian and Italian.

When I took the bus back, I sat next to a young girl who had a phone with rhinestones glued to it in a heart shape, and a beanie baby on a key chain. She had a ponytail, she was texting and wearing an army uniform. She had a grenade launcher in the seat next to her. The bus stopped several times and the Palestinians were made to get off and be searched. Their bags were taken off the bus and dumped out, and the soldiers kicked through their belongings at the side of the road and we sat inside the bus and watched and they passed out snacks.

It was absolutely banal, but the whole thing chilled me, and I realized that this was the country at the center of American foreign policy, and this was the beacon of democracy, and I realized that these were the supposed "good guys," and I just thought that it wasn't fucking right, and that Christians should be embarrassed because Jesus wouldn't have stood for any of this.

Sorry I wrote a novel. It really changed me.

TL:DR; I think every American history teacher should be forced to walk around in Jerusalem, then go through the wall to Bethlehem and walk around in Palestine before teaching students that colonialism is something that "used to" happen.

Sorry I wrote a novel. It really changed me.

Nah, thanks for taking the time to share that; it's some incredibly heavy stuff.

I got excited for a second, I thought he actually wrote a book. For the record, I'd buy that book.

You should check out "Palestine" by Joe Sacco, or "Jerusalem" by Guy Delisle.

ya. you did. not long enough tho

Thank you for sharing your experience.

[deleted]

The US/Mexico situation is essentially a story of drug wars, not of forced occupation and stripping people of their basic humanity.

Also, because NOT EVERYTHING HAS TO BE ABOUT FUCKING AMERICA.

Exactly. A better example is reconstruction era southern states.

OOC, can you provide specific examples of how people were treated in the south during reconstruction? It was always a touchy subject with my history teachers and I'm at work and can't look up on it right now...

I was originally making an ironic comment that referenced the US.

But since you asked- Reconstruction is a bad example if you were black, a good example if you were white. It lasted for about a decade after the US civil war, and was essentially a program where white northerners ran the former confederacy via military occupation.

The reason why I said that Reconstruction was a bad example if you are black is that Reconstruction era governments elected a lot of African Americans and pushed hard for enfranchisement of all Freedmen.

Post reconstruction is closer to how Israel controls the WB and Gaza. There was a presidential election in 1876 that was similar to 2000- One guy won the popular vote (democrat) and another won the Electoral College (republican). The compromise was that the republican from the north would be president, but Reconstruction had to end so that the south could be allowed to run itself (and institutionalize racism). Overnight the KKK showed up, Jim Crow laws were passed, and separate but equal was the law of the land, de facto and de jure.

There was racism before Reconstruction ended (of course), but the southern governments literally decided to disenfranchise human beings after we, as a species, had mostly agreed that people shouldn't be allowed to own people. This is what makes Jim Crow particularly messed up. The American Civil War was fought over slavery, but the losing side was allowed to take freedom away from people after they were just freed, then they took pride in it and called it tradition.

OOC, can you provide specific examples of how people were treated in the south during reconstruction?

Depends what race you were...

Wouldn't social class have a lot to do with how you were treated during that period too? I mean, I understand that blacks were oppressed back then, but I don't think share croppers and people in that social circle were treated very well no matter if they were black or white.

Am I correct in saying this? I don't know any of this for sure, I've just noticed that poor people in general have been looked down upon throughout the history of this country and figured it would apply to post-Reconstruction too.

Edit: I'd like to point out I'm not trying to undermine the struggle of African Americans back then, I'm just interested in how wealth and social status tied in to how people are treated by society.

Wow that was some nice propaganda.

America plays a vital role on this planet. It would be very nice if that role was based on fairness and kindness for others than just what the rich desire. In my opinion that isn't going to happen until you start voting better people and different parties into office, the democrats and republicans are not going to change while they constantly have complete control of politics

Cue discussion on preferential voting, citizens united, etc etc

Yes its very difficult, but I am hopeful that the US is going to wake up to what those parties have served up. I like the greens and I'm not even an environmentalist, it doesn't inform my politics at all, I am more interested in foreign affairs. I like the greens because they represent something outside the usual political power structures that are defined by and represent the stinking rich, they are people who care about more than just power. They care about the world around us. I would love to see someone like Jill Stein beat the republicans and democrats in an election as a protest vote even because I honestly believe she is a good human being and you could do with one of those in charge showing the world a more humane side to America that represents the core of America. You are good people led by a bunch of blockheads running a very corrupt democracy that puts the needs of the rich first. Its time for change imho.

The best than can be hoped for is that the parties themselves move towards more humane politics, in order to appeal to voters. At the moment however, it is moving towards more extremes than before.

Right now I suspect you are right, but I'm not sure if they are getting more extreme, on the right there seems to be a core of people focussing on very stupid stuff (Hillary is bisexual, Obama was married to his Pakistani flat mate etc.) Honestly I think a vote for Hillary is voting for exactly the same politics as Obama, and a vote for the Cruz/Rand dream team is voting for slightly different politics to Obama.

It's quite lazy on your part to think the two are the same. There's only one party that wants to dismantle the EPA and drill the national parks for resources, for instance.

Agree with 2nd statement, but not 1st. Go to a maquila... its about much more than drug trafficking.

Well, not really, maybe in the past 100 years, but back during the Mexican/American war, we basically stole half of their land (modern day California and all of the southwestern US), drove the native people out and never gave it back. It isn't comparable to the Israel/Palestine situation because the Palestinians had nowhere to go and Israel never killed them all.

There are 330 million of us, and this site is based in the US so what do you expect? LOUD NOISES.

edit: grammar

I expect Americans to be intelligent enough to be able to consider things as they are, without needing to continually bring the conversation back to American specific issues. There are nealy 7 billion people in the rest of the world you know.

Many Americans are intelligent enough to consider things as they are but you have understand that its hard to consider things outside of what the media portrays. Even though Americans have the ability to access more complete and information about world topics we just don't. We're taught a misplaced trust in our news media and never feel the need to fact check anything.

My comment was initially aimed at a comment that has since been deleted, which basically said

"dudes, why is nobody discussing the problems with the US/Mexico border"?

Or seemingly have the skills to do so. Fact checking is hard when you are actively trained to not look further than fox.

Also, this is an excellent visually explanation of that situation you describe:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/hunterschwarz/time-magazine-covers-in-the-us-vs-the-rest-of-the-world

The April 2, 2007 one is my favorite.

[deleted]

That's true. You're right, let's discuss problems with the US economy then. It's something we don't do enough of anyway.

QU3 since February of 2012 has been to the tune of 85 Billion a month. in buying toxic assets but mainly US Bonds. Thats $1.7 trillion in extra fed stimulus not including the bailouts and average lending and god knows what else they do because we dont get to audit them independently.

China (the largest holder of foreign debt) has $ 1.3 Trillion in US bonds.

All that increase wealth the Global Wealth Databook shows (which is bullshit because it doesnt take into account private wealth of families who have been inheriting fortunes and keeping them in tax free shelters, or gold bullion, art, gems etc etc. the only shit they can count for in their $47 trillion in 2008 to $72 trillion in mid-2013 figure is private wealth we can see i publicly traded stock and income filings and demonstrated wealth.

But the rich families (like the Rockefellers and other old money fams) keep their wealth private in foundations and tax shelters and over seas so the rich actually have even more control than people like to admit.

So my point is that the wealth being talked about here has not only increased the gap between US and them but that increase in wealth is all paper stock money. its imaginary and intangible and has done nothing to increase the actual amount of production and services. Dont end the fed i say, create a state owned one to compete.

Complementary currency systems. International trade could be done in the federal reserve notes, and domestic trade could be conducted in both Federal Reserve Notes and Treasury Notes. OR you could have the option to conduct international trade in US Treasury Notes as well. And for those willing to deal with the debt money insanity give them the choice. But mandate that property taxes are payable in both currencies and employers must pay their employees in whatever currency they choose or a mixture of the two if they choose. Anyone who thinks this would be too difficult to achieve to confusing to enact and make sense of?? Bro... theres an app for that. Dont fall for that silly protest.

The difference being that Treasury notes are simply issued by the government by spending them directly into the economy without any interest, thru infrastructure development like the Hyperloop but all across the country, putting the latest and greatest solar panel technology on the roof of every house and business building and federal building in the country, building a super dope wall along the southern border, updating all the fucking internet fiber funding research centers, free college education for everyone, healthcare single payer system funding, etc etc etc. The bottom line is that we need more money going to the people and not to the banking class (who have the sole officially sanctioned monopoly on money creation.)

Also ban interest on loans. Its called usury. you used to be put to death if you tried that shit. Not even kidding. To this day, islamic countries ban it. They do fine, and if we didnt fuck with them, and prop up their dictators and stir up revolutions to over throw their democratically elected governments periodically, they'd be so fucking rich its mindblowing. Why ban interest on loans? take 8 minutes out of your life to change it. right now

its not a utopian fantasy. id like to answer any questions if anyone has them.

the reason you ban interest is because it inevitably results in wealth extraction and consolidation into the hands of those with the power to coin money. In present case this is the private banking system.

i dont even advocate banning private banking or banning the fed. Merely creating an alternative. let the rich play their investment games, but dont hold the 99% hostage to their risky games and speculation.

i really suggest you watch the video and see if it doesnt pique your interest. Interest works and the current monetary paradigm works beautifully... the question is who does it work for?

There are objections to usury from two points of view: From the point of view of distributive justice usury is a sin because it victimizes the poor – to wit, payday loan sharks and credit card companies. From the point of view of commutative justice, however, we see the true nature of usury and how it is in fact a sin against nature.

To illustrate this, imagine a poor starving man who comes to a rich man and begs to be fed a ham sandwich. The rich man says, “I will not give you a ham sandwich, but I will lend you one. This is a loan. You must pay me back.” The poor man promises to.

A month later, when the poor man has saved enough to buy a ham sandwich to replace the one he ate, he brings said sandwich to the rich man. “This will not do!” the rich man says. “You owe me 30 sandwiches, not just one.”

“But you only lent me one,” the poor man replies.

“Yes, but you ate that sandwich 30 days ago, and I have been without it myself for 30 days. I could have eaten it 30 times over in 30 days. You not only enjoyed my sandwich, you enjoyed the use of it, for a full month!”

“The use I put the sandwich to was to eat it. And after I ate it once, I could not eat it again 30 times over. And neither could you! The sandwich vanished upon being put to use – which is to say eaten,” the poor fool replies.

But the rich man, flying in the face of nature and common sense, claims that somehow a thing that is consumed in its use is no different from the ongoing use of a thing that endures, as if the ham sandwich had been a plow the poor man had borrowed, a durable good he had been putting to productive use for that length of time. And so the poor man is either clapped in jail, or in an enlightened society, asked to make the minimum payment of a half slice of ham every month for the rest of his life.

This crime against nature, of trying to gain from something that produces no gain, of charging for the use of something separate from the consumption of it, when its use is in fact that very consumption – this is usury. not "An excessive or illegally high rate of interest charged on borrowed money." Any interest on loaned money is usurious as i hope this illustrates.

And this greedy neglect of reality, this demand for profit where no good is produced, this fee for use even when something is used up, this is the root of what is bringing the world’s economy down.

As someone once said, “We want our money to breed, but our sex to be sterile.” And the effect of that fallacy is all around us, as you can seed in the video provided by Money Network Alliance MonNetA.org.

:)

Those 7 billion aren't on this site though. There's a billion Chinese, there's a Billion Indians or so, but they have their own places on the web. If you want a better representation of yourself try another site not based in the US. This is like me going on yoku.com and bitching that the site is all in Chinese and has no interests in the western world.

My comment was initially aimed at a comment that has since been deleted, which basically said

"dudes, why is nobody discussing the problems with the US/Mexico border"?

Maybe you're correct, maybe the right thing to do in every conversation on reddit is to find ways to stop discussing the interesting topic at hand and instead discuss issues directly relevant to America, what the fuck do I know.

And absolutely all of them are important and relevant to conversation.

It's not like America and Israel have any sort of history together, so they shouldn't even be in the same context..

oh.. wait a minute.

Discussing American financing of Israel is relevant, discussing the border of Mexico is distracting.

Yeah, lets complain about murica on an english website based in the usa on your american windows/apple/google software while on american invented internet.

Then lets complain about murica when discussing a country who is financed and propped up by murica, who can only do what is described in the story because they have an unlimited flow of murican money.

Guys murica is completely irrelevant, to talk about murica right now makes absolutely zero sense.

Erm a Brit invented the Internet. It was even shown in the Olympic opening ceremony to remind people :)

Let's make sure we distinguish between the Internet and the World Wide Web. It is widely accepted that Robert Kahn, Leonard Kleinrock and Vint Cerf invented the Internet and Tim Berners-Lee invented the World Wide Web. Use Wikipedia. It's correct.

No, you're right. Let's bring the conversation back to America, because that's all that matters.

Good boy.

He expects the big boys and girls to have a discussion about foreign countries without everything having to be related directly to WELL IN AMERICA IT'S LIKE THIS...

[deleted]

Or until "all the roaches are stomped", as I've heard it. Sad to see so much hate all around.

It doesn't end with Palestinians either. There are other groups being targeted in Israel. I once made a comment in my history class in college that Israel is a lot like Nazi controlled Germany. There were looks of utter disgust and contempt from other students. People who were smug saying "you can't make that comparison. it's too different." But the teacher, who writes and talks about this shit for a living, agreed with me.

Well they do encourage the philosophy that some people are better and inherently different humans.

Worse than that. Begin basically said that the difference between Jews and Palestinians is greater than the difference between humans and insects.

Very sadly, more than half of Israel buys into this. It's a place of hatered and persecution...very much the Nazi Germany of our time. Yes, America enables them but they supply the hate, bigotry, apartheid, and persecution of the entire Arab people. I've never seen anything like it in America...imagine the deep South of the 50s times 1000. America keeps the money flowing in and the hatred flourishing. And Israel uses phony guilt and very high-powered lobbyists screaming "anti-semite!" to ensure the money supply NEVER stops. It's the most dysfunctional and sickening thing I've seen in my entire life.

The Ashkenazi Jews need to go back to Europe and return the land they stole...but you're more likely to see a perpetual motion machine first.

Not times 1000. Even today its very easy to make comparisons to modern day Israel and Black people in the United States, Israel is not exceptional in its oppression of Palestinians, though it might be significant in the level of stuff the government has gotten away with.

you are correct. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlx2PgESXhs

That thing is NOT a perpetual motion machine (it stops after 2 weeks or so) but is one of the COOLEST things that I've ever seen. My dad met the inventor in (I think) Denmark.

How about the property (including real estate) that was stolen from European Jews who fled Europe or were sent to death camps? Do you think the Poles would return the Jewish homes they "occupied" if some "dirty" Jew showed up saying that the Pole's house really belonged to the "dirty" Jew's grandfather? No fucking way. And how about the Sephardic Jews whose land was stolen after they were kicked out of the Arab/Persian countries they lived in? Should they try to return to Libya or Iran? Good luck with that! LMFAO = "Ashkenazi Jews need to go back to Europe..."

Source?

I take it you've never read the Torah, Talmud, etc. or ever hung out with Orthodox people so I won't downvote that. But yes, G.d's chosen, tribes, Goyim. That thought is fairly pervasive but many religions have it- see Hindi culture and castes.

First of all, you shouldn't be too quick with your assumptions. Secondly, yes, there is a philosophy of The Israelites being the chosen people, but there are hundreds, if not thousands of laws in Halacha that instruct how to treat said 'goyim' with fairness and respect, in business, interpersonal relationships, and with property. Please elucidate how that compares to the philosophy of Nazi Germany.

Racial purity, marriage laws, etc. I wasn't making a comparison- but it wouldn't be a stretch to draw a parallel. Extremism is always a bad idea. Also, I've read much on religion. There are as many sanctions against equal treatment as there are endorsing it. I'm no t against any religion or those who practice it as long as it respects others.

I have the same view on Religion (capital R intended) as you do, but I would not make a parallel or comparison between modern day Israel and the Nazi regime. And by you agreeing to the comment above, you are supporting that view.

Beware equivocation. It's not an all or nothing view-and having religion specific roads, jobs etc. is not indicative of freedom or democracy. I'm not in complete agreement but see some bad policies that half of Israel isn't proud of....Ha'aretz brings these issues up frequently. So does the Post.

(though less intense)

That's quite an understatement. We aren't blowing up the Mexicans.

They aren't blowing us up

"We aren't blowing up the Mexicans."

And the Mexicans aren't blowing us up.

No, we're just exporting guns and importing drugs. We totally didn't steal half their land, and then buy what was left over. No what is happening in Mexico is totally not exploitation, and the corruption of government by capital. /s

Israel and Palestine blow each other up. It's not just Israel sending rockets and laughing

Nah, the palestinians fire off a shitty rocket that is impossible to aim and Israel brings the helicopter gunships.

I'm not saying that Israel doesn't have the right, just that it is very asymmetrical.

I dont think anyone has the right to do either of those things.

"Nah, the palestinians fire off a shitty rocket that is impossible to aim and Israel brings the helicopter gunships."

Hamas has upped its game considerably in recent years, with outside help. In the last go-round they could have scored some direct hits if not for the Iron Dome missile interception system. I don't think the "asymmetric" argument has much appeal to those on the recieving end. Go on You Tube and have a look at what its like to be where those "shitty" rockets land. Do you think, if Americans were those on the recieving end, they would accept the "assymetric" excuse?

I agree with you. Sovereignty and the need to protect yourself is a thing. I'm not sure about the rockets today, but I saw some of the rockets from the second intifada, the wings were worthless, impossible to aim. It was similar to throwing rocks at soldiers with armor and rifles (oh shit, that happened too!).

So I'm not making a morality judgement, I just think we can all agree that the situation is very messed up.

"I just think we can all agree that the situation is very messed up."

Yes. And I am still not quite sure exactly what Hamas wants. Can anyone tell me?

Israel blows up the Palestinians and the Israelis pretending to be Palestinians in Palestine fire useless rockets into the state they were spawned from. They generally hit nobody but accidents could happen I guess....

more like they aren't shooting rockets into el paso

Maybe because Mexico doesn't have a "Mexico Liberation Operation" with a stated goal of the destruction of America.

Maybe because the white house took that gig already

[deleted]

America's foreign policy provokes terrorism

Just like my penis

He left out the terrorism, hamas stealing resources from their own people to make bombs, and hamas using children as human shields, but okay.

He must've seen all that happen on day two. He's talking about his personal experience, and what he saw. Fucking moron.

Okay, but his comment becomes one sided when he insinuates Israel is an aggressor and does not mention hamas.

Of course you're right, but hopefully the reader has an idea of the opposition. Yet, the aggression shown by Israel is unreal, no one can deny that. I don't have enough information to pick a side, but advantages are obvious. Just can't ride the poster for a thoughtful and convo-starting post.

So a single experience is enough to promote his new opinion, but a different experience isn't allowed to defend his old one?

Have you've seen what OP has seen? I wonder. Thank you OP for your first hand perspective of the wall.

Are you defending the jackass actions of the people in his story because Hamas stole resources from his own people? Do you realize how much of a nut you sound like?

You're entirely missing the point. We are presented with one experience, taken from a single vantage point, and told that that is 'how it is'. And yet, other people have had other experiences viewed from a different perspective. Somehow you provide more weight to one over the other. So please, explain to me how a single data point is ever enough to form a valid opinion, and furthermore, how one data point might be given more importance than another. Because it was delivered in a empathetic tone? Please.

Wade must be a cocksucker

I think 161719's aim was rather to show that Israel is not necessarily the good guy in this conflict, as it is often presented in western media. He wanted to demonstrate the effects of israeli aggression, rather than stating a political opinion. Of course the Hamas does wrong things, that is not to be questioned or made smaller, but it doesn't effect the point of 161719, which is more about Israel's position and policies.

Edit: spelling

I assume by western media you mean American, a lot of people here in the UK at least view Israel as the bigger scumbag.

Yeah, here in the Nethetlands too, altough not always

Other Dutchy reporting in, can confirm. Israel is seen as the agressive/occupying force here by many, supported by the US to have a stronghold in that part of the world.

A pats fan being the voice of reason?

But seriously, well said.

Well, do Americans treat muslims well, after 9/11? Notice the similarity, they bomb shit down, then get to be treated as if they were gonna do it again. They're not 'the bad guys', they're just being precautious.

I'm sorry, but your comment is a little unclear. Who are being treated as if they are going to do what again, and who are not the bad guys, and who is being precautions, it is unclear at which point you mean the Muslims, and at which one the Americans/ Israelis?

I'm sorry, but your comment is a little unclear. Who are being treated as if they are going to do what again, and who are not the bad guys, and who is being precautions, it is unclear at which point you mean the Muslims, and at which one the Americans/ Israelis?

Sorry, I meant it's not surprising to me that Palestinians are treated by Israelis the way they are, considering hamas and so on. Whether the formation of Israel was right or wrong is something I won't debate, what I'm sure of though is that it was acknowledged by many countries I and I'm certain most of you consider "friendly", which in my eyes makes it lawful enough. What I'm trying to say is that surely Israelis don't go to Palestine to suicidebomb themselves in as big crowd of people as possible. Given the amount of incidents, it's no wonder Palestine inhabitants are treated by Israelis as if every single one of them was wearing a belt with C4 attached.

What I'm trying to say is that surely Israelis don't go to Palestine to suicidebomb themselves in as big crowd of people as possible<

That's right, what Israeli's do instead is drop 500lb and 1 ton bombs on Gaza's civilian infrastructure when they are most likely to be inhabited with innocent civlians, or launch missiles at cars in Gaza's crowded streets thus ensuring innocent civilian casualties.

Yes, I guess it is aggressive to protect your people from others that want to wipe them off the planet. Palestinian is where it's at because of it's own polices and beliefs. They have had a number of chances to play nice and they have proven they can't be trusted to do what is right. When your main agenda is a genocide of an entire people it's kind of hard to be sympathetic to their plight.

If the protection of your people consists of taking away a country that earlier belonged to somebody else, locking away innocent people from the outer world, providing them with worse sanitation and water at a higher price than your own people, and presenting this as democratic and positive and necessary to the outer world, then yes, this method of protection can be viewed as aggressive. I understand the threat that Hamas poses to Israel, and some of the security measures implemented, however certain measures are clearly acts of aggression and hatred against innocent Palestinians.

I agree, except I don't think that Israel is presented as the good guy. Israel is presented as our ally, one surround by enemies, in a position we helped create for them.

"I don't think Israel is presented as the good guy."

I know. Every time I turn on TV, I see the news slamming Israel, and sticking up for Palestinians and Lebanese. This anti-Israel media bias in the U.S. must be stopped.

Perspective. Where I am sitting the media seems depressingly overwhelmingly pro-Israel. Could my personal views be influencing what I take in? Definitely. I'd like to think I have a pretty balanced view on the matter, but I always am on the side of the underdog and it is hard to be impartial.

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic, but I don't see that either. Mostly the news reads like the sports page, tallying the wounded and the dead, the territories won and lost, and whatever the latest trash talk, threats, promises or treaties are being made or broken.

Seems to me the news is positive or negative depending on which team you are rooting for.

Of course, some news is clearly biased. But there are many sources. If you don't like what you are reading, find another source.

Never said Israel is a good guy nor do I believe that. I think both sides' governments are fucking idiots and the people just want peace.

I understand that, I'm just saying he didn't necessarily have a point regarding the fact that Palestinians would be good, therefore mentioning the Hamas would be unnecessary. Cool username by the way.

Oh. Okay.

Which begs invites the question:

What would you do if you were the Palestinian father?

You can't ask those people that question. "What would you do if ..." bluescreens them. They don't experience hypotheticals in the same manner as we do. They see the world as they think it is, end of story, and they interpret any attempt to get them to deviate from their set view, as damage.

If you ask him that question, he will think "but I am not the Palestinian father" and reject it, probably with expressions of anger, as in his mind, you are associating him with an inferior by making that comparison.

It's a cognitive deficit that maybe half of humanity have. They don't analogize. It's not a tool in their toolbox (well it kind of is, but it's painful and confusing to them to use it). There are reasons why that is, having to do with Jungian functional theory and developmental priority of intuition, but it doesn't greatly matter. The point is that they can't be swayed by an appeal to intuitive extrapolation any more than you might be persuaded by an elegant argument expressed in a language you don't speak. They basically have to be spoonfed conclusions by authority figures, or personally experience the sharp end of the exact same situation.

This is exemplified right here on reddit whenever someone tries to draw a simile. They're immediately pounced on by people who take them literally.

[deleted]

...Yes.

I'd like to think I'd "John Q" that shit but I'm sure my actions would be similar to the father's

Hate breeds hate breeds hate ad infinitum.

Never fails to crack me up reading people's wise words then reading their user names

Ahhh, begging questions. One of those phrases that no one uses correctly anymore.

point taken

and the part about the IDF blocking medical supplies from entering Palestine, but yeah, okay. Or about the illegal settlements knocking down generational Palestinian housing, but yeah, okay.

Nobody is blameless in this. Israel has been attacked a shit ton by neighboring countries.

Well, he was writing about his experiences...

Sigh, /r/israel has leaked again

Hmmmm... he was talking about what he experienced. Maybe, JUST maybe, the things you speak of do not happen as much as the media would portray. Considering almost all media, including fox news and msnbc, are classified as entertainment (they can't be sued for false reporting that way); maybe a lot of things we hear aren't exactly true?

If I'm not mistaken, in America, there is no law against "false reporting". The media has freedom of speech, which also means freedom to lie. (If I'm wrong, please direct me to the proper legal code.)

Oh yeah, I almost forgot every Palestinian was part of or supported hamas.

That may have something to do with their birthground being occupied by foreign powers.

I was being sarcastic.

Did not say that Mr strawman.

So what are you trying to say?

He left out the terrorism, hamas stealing resources from their own people to make bombs, and hamas using children as human shields, but okay.

Hm, are you implying that hamas was somehow related to his personal experience to and from Palestine in some way, and he just didn't include it to make Palestine look better then?

If not, what was the purpose of your comment?

His comment clearly labels israel as an aggressor and completely ignores the actions of hamas.

OP is writing about what they witnessed. If you know of anyone who witnessed what you said please inform us

guys guys stop, twistednipples is right this is all totally justified, i mean whats wrong with punishing an entire civilian population for the crimes of a militant resistance group...

White phosphorous too, if you want to play that game.

Aaand...here come the sockpuppets, alerted to defend the cause.

DEATH TO THE TERRORIST HAMAS THIEF BABY'S ARM!

Are you one of those people paid to say good things about Israel on the internet? Or just an asshole?

Yea. All that happened on the bus ride. He just didn't want to mention it. Obnoxious.

[deleted]

They fly in people from gaza all the time to be treated. Just recently a lady was flown in from Gaza to get treated in Israel. She went back later and tried to bomb the same hospital she was treated at. http://www.snopes.com/politics/israel/eldad.asp

Literally did not comment about the kid at all. The blockade is there because of Hamas and the anger should be directed at them. Instead everyone blames Israel.

You are just another brick in the wall.

Typical Zionist ignorance.

Go fuck yourself, you worthless shit.

Ill go to any other news outlet to read about the "real" evildoers

I think the point was he 'realised everything was a lie'. Which would also call into question this statement.

There is a very large difference between the essential internment of an entire people behind locked gates and walls in a land they are from; and an extremist sect that uses children as human shields.

It's comparing apples and oranges.

Cause and effect. Can't say where it started, but I know that at this point the beasts feed each other.

It isn't an easy things to stop either, both sides have been fucking each other up for so long that it looks like the only way to end it is to kill the other side. But that is barbaric, and we can and should be better than that.

You mean, he ignored Western Media propaganda?! I'm shocked he was able to form his own opinion! Shocked I tell you!

OP was sharing his/her personal experience, not filming a historical documentary.

I wish I could give you 160 upvotes.

Why is this downvoted!? It's completely not the point of the discussion, but it's true.

You left out the reason why they do these things.

Yeah, all these people who talk about the state of the Palestinian people...I'd like to see them live in Israel for a while, the attacks, the missiles, the mandatory military service...people don't understand there's two sides to the story...

and the waffles.

[deleted]

I would love to hear your story, if you wouldn't mind. How you got to be an American citizen while the rest of your family is not allowed to leave, what their living conditions are like.

[deleted]

I've been told by a Palestinian living in Ireland that countries don't want to give them citizenship as that country would then be responsible for them if they went to Israel/Palestine and got into trouble with the Israeli authorities.

Yeah it's fucked up man

I don't know. It drives me nuts when I hear about Canadian getting in trouble overseas, just to find out that the "Canadian" has only been a citizen for 3 years and is trouble in his home country.

[deleted]

I'm saying countries offering citizenship have a right to be selective about who they let immigrate. They should be allowed to consider whatever criteria they like.

Your username is epic. Im picturing mohammed dressed like a bro

My job requires business professional attire only, I bro out on weekends only. haha

Ah, thanks for clarifying and sharing that!

[deleted]

Well no.

YOu can apply for a visa in education as long as you are earning a masters degree and above.

A 'greencard' can not be granted to some one seeking employment in the US, you would first earn a L1a/b visa if you are transfering with your company or a H1 visa if you are being directly hired.

Only after 3 - 5 years of residence can you apply for your green card, only then are you given a chance to prove that you hold skills that result in a direct benefit to the USA or that you are a leading professional in your field.

Source: I manage a lot of foreign workers visa's for one of the top 3.

You're comment reminded me a documentary I watched on youtube and I'm hoping you or someone else here has seen it and could point me to a link of it. I've been looking for it for months. It's about someone who seems a lot like you, that's why I thought to ask. A younger person whose family lives in Palestine goes to visit them and he records it all. The wall was being constructed, I THINK it may have been the WB, but maybe Gaza. He visits his family who I think was grandparents. The man who I believe was his grandfather inherited olive orchards from his father and doubled the size of the orchards. His grandfather seemed very nice and dressed nicely the way my grandfather did. What struck me about his family was how much they reminded me of my grandparents who raised me. Comfortable financially from a life of working hard and making smart decisions. Anyway, Israel shows up and destroys the orchards and the family property for the wall. It was an amazing piece of film. If anyone knows about this please hit me up with a link. Brohamad, be safe and good luck in your new home.

Palestine Blues?

Yes, thank you!

I have not seen that documentary but if you find the link please pass it along to me I would greatly appreciate it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNQpvciBoks

Confirmed below as the one Errorist was talking about.

I absolutely will. It was heartbreaking.

Wasn't Tears of Gaza, was it?

Just looked that up, not the one.

It's not the one, but there are scenes from "From Beirut to Bosnia" by Robert Fisk which I am sure you'll find compelling:

• https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGDoyxzRlgE

• https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zx-Xd1Pzu88

• https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpMAYHmGEKs

Watch this doc as well and share it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IOCgbN1k0c

Tell him to sneak in through Mexico and then claim asylum because some gang-bangers in Mexico shot at him. That Harvard education is a waste of time. Gotta get some street education up in here!

So he can be a doctor in Palastine, I think it's wrong that America snakes all the best and brightest from other lands.

Being treated poorly because of your name is a battle ive l been fighting my whole life. Born and raised in Canada. Im athiest but i have the I most muslim name possible. Ive been denied jobs so i changed my name, not legally, to something more westerner. Colleagues of mine dont even know my real name for years now. Also, two of my ex's, who are Lebanese christian, their parents hated me soo much cause of my name was muslim. They thought im one of those muslim guys who will force their daughter into wearing a hijab scarf and control her. Im generalized based on all the muslim stereotypes when im not even muslim. I hate it!

I understand your outrage of being treated that way, but if your honest, you will admit how much better that treatment is than the treatment you get from the police in any Islamic country.

Not to mention the fact that these procedures did not come into being out of a vacuum. Before Islamic terrorism there were no security procedures. You could walk back and forth between the West Bank and Israel and no one even asked for your papers. The specific procedures you protest are a direct response to Arafat's entifada, remember?

Clinton brought the whole region to the brink of a peace settlement. Israel was offering the West Bank full autonomy. Arafat went home, and broadcast over the radio, "why accept only part when we can take it all". Then he started sending over the suicide bombers one after another, blowing up kids in pizza joints.

I think it is terrible the way the Palestinians are treated. But any honest soul has to admit that they have brought these security procedures on themselves, one suicide bomb at a time.

For thirty years my work took me among Muslim across the whole arc of Islam. Across that whole arc, and among the Palestinians in particular, they are quite frank that there will be no peace until Israel is destroyed, and all the Jews killed. Are you seriously suggesting that Israel should just roll over and die?

Hey it's this guy! The pro-Israeli chap busting out the fine display of a false dichotomy lumping all palastinians together and who wants to displace blame and justify the unjustifiable.

Fuuuuuuck this guy.

I guess no one has ever explained the concept of "projection" to you, eh? I abhor the mistreatment of innocent Palistinians. I just acknowledge the factual history of how these security arrangements came into being. Although I understand and sympathize with how difficult historical fact is to someone like you, who considers flip dismissal an argument, and whose thinking issues from leftist group think.

Good, I'm glad. But re-read your comment - it really doesn't sound like that - especially the comment about all Palestinians wanting the total destruction of Israel. The end line about the choice being to maintain the system as it stands or roll over and let the Palestinians kill everyone is the false dichotomy I hear from the blindly pro-Israeli camp all the time. Usually arguing with this group is impossible as all you hear is "you just don't understand history" followed by a one-sided discussion of middle-eastern conflict (as the nicer response) or the more common "you're an idiot pro-arab liberal fucktard who can't understand historical issues."

When I tell them I'm a history professor at a large, prestigious US research university their answer never changes - except to add that I must be a terrible professor, my "liberal bias" must stem from my training or that they must let anyone be a professor these days.

All I can say is look back at the world in 20 years, try to remove yourself from your biases and ask yourself if Israel's actions in the world have been a net positive. To prepare yourself to do this, try everyday to not only see the conflict through Palastinian eyes, but from other perspectives as well. Ask yourself if it seems right that internet brigades roam around anonymously "correcting" peoples' "misconceptions" about Israel. Is it to foster an open discourse and exchange of opinion - or is it to manipulate this discourse?

Give it a shot - maybe the billions of people who think Israel has overstepped its bounds and become the thing they once hated aren't completely misguided and full of shit. There's a reason Israelis have despised (the Jewish) Hannah Arendt's Eichmann in Jerusalem and her concept of the "banality of evil" - it wasn't just that she read Nazi crimes as being perpetrated by normal people just carrying out their duties (and that "evil" was thus a woefully inadequate construct) - it was the implication that through the Zionist impulse the Israelis could travel down this same road - tossing aside all considerations of decency because of the belief that this land was meant for them.

And sorry to have offended you, but your comment was well out of line.

Truly, no offense taken. You can't take hard left, Israeli hating zealots seriously in any case. If you start taking offense at every anti Semite in the world you'll always be offended. That is no way to live.

You might consider taking your own advice about opening your mind, and looking at the facts of terrorism, and how it is the actions of the terrorists that brought these terrible security procedures into being. You might want to look at how Arafat refused the peace settlement announcing that the Palestinians would take everything through suicide bombing. You might face the fact of Palestinian representation in the Israeli Parliament, and their success rate in Israeli court action, and then make an honest comparison with how Jews and Christians are treated through out the Islamic arc of nations. Not to mention how women are treated, and how gays are treated, and how liberal Muslims are treated.

And yes I do agree, there are many many people who think Jews overstep their bounds by living, and breathing, and walking this earth. I just happen to think they are in the wrong.

See this is a subtler way of saying the same thing while implying that those who don't condone Israeli responses to terrorism somehow are siding with the terrorists.

And yes I do agree, there are many many people who think Jews overstep their bounds by living, and breathing, and walking this earth. I just happen to think they are in the wrong.

What a brave opinion - The Israelis shouldn't all have to die. What straw-man are you fighting here? I didn't say the Israelis were overstepping their bounds by "living, and breathing, and walking the earth." This is, again, a convenient ignorance and desire to cast everything in black and white terms. I said they were overstepping their bounds in their treatment of the Palestinian people and in their response to terrorist attacks. If a xenopohobic Palestinian terrorist kills an Israeli boy on a bus, that does not justify similar atrocities commited by the Israeli government/military. You can argue all you want about Hamas and other groups' unwillingness to reach compromise - but Israel has again and again done the same thing. Until both sides see the absurdity of simply blaming the other and suggesting any criticism of their position to be condemnation of their right to exist, this bullshit spectacle (which is how much of the rest of the world views this shit-show) will continue.

This is part of a LONG line of historical precedent going back to the Zionist movement in the fin de siecle - here's a quick synopsis of Arendt's post-war trip to Jerusalem for a lesson in how nothing has really changed.

Edit: link

If Jewish suicide bombers were coming daily into the West Bank and blowing themselves up near Islamic grade schools, and in the pizza shops of Islamic teenagers, the Muslims would have every right to build a wall, and establish security procedures.

But there is no moral equivalence here, is there? Islam is sending over the human bombs, and the Israelis aren't. Israel bends over backwards to avoid collateral damage, while the Muslims fire their rockets from the play grounds of schools, trying to get Israel to bomb children.

Palestine could have peace tomorrow if it acknowledged the right of the Jews to exist. But they don't. That is the objective fact you keep blanking out. There is no equivalence here. Israel does acknowledge the right of the Palestinians to exist, and has been ready to grant them an autonomous state since 2000. To this day the Palestinian Authority, Hamas, and Hezbollah will not acknowledge the right of the Jews to exist.

I worked in this area for 30 years. Every day the Muslim government sponsored newspapers promise the eventual destruction of all the Jews. They teach this idea of genocide to their children in schools. It is the basis of a dozen TV broadcasts every day. You know this to be true. You also know that Israel is not doing these things. Why do you insist there is equivalence when you know there isn't?

Pack of lies.

If Israel recognizes Palestine's right to exist, why do they constantly seize more land?

The PLO recognized Israel's right to exist 20 years ago, but all they got in return was more lies, robbery and murder.

Israelis kill Palestinians constantly. No, they don’t use suicide bombs, they use regular bombs and bullets and starvation and deprivation of medical services.

There is no equivalence. Israel was established in a program of ethnic cleansing which has never stopped in the past 70 years. Their neighbors only want them to give it up, and have offered them national recognition in return, but the Israelis only continue their efforts to seize and depopulate more territory, defending it with baldfaced lies like yours.

In 2000 Israel was ready to close the deal on the two state solution. Arafat went home, and he broadcast "why should we accept part when we can take it all". Then he sent in the suicide bombers one after another, until Israel responded with the wall, and the security measures we are discussing. Israel still stands willing to close the deal, but Hamas refuses to accept an Israeli state. Not to mention Hezbollah, the Islamic Brotherhood, and the Iranians.

Israel was offering the Palestinians a set of isolated bantustans separated by checkpoints and Israeli controlled land, liar.

The rest of those are just irrelevant handwaving on your part, liar. Hezbollah has their own issues with Israel, specifically its constant attempts to annex even more Lebanese land.

Sigh - this is EXACTLY why I don't usually engage with people like you. You've turned this into an entire issue you'd LIKE to argue but isn't what I was in ANY WAY arguing. Distract, deflect, get mad. It's like there's a findie script for setting up straw-man arguments and knocking them over. I'm done. Have fun with your bigotry, hatred and intolerance you medieval fuckass.

Cursing at people is not an argument, nor is it "engaging" them. Every point I made is documented fact. None of which you address, because you can't effectively counter the facts. So you go over to personal attacks, cursing, and run away.

You might want to consider looking up the psychological concept of "projection". Your comments here are a classic text book example of that defense mechanism.

All I've done is refuse to get involved in your attempts to sidetrack any conversation into easily "winnable" arguments like disagreeing that all Jews should be killed or that you strongly feel Jewish people have the right to defend themselves. You haven't answered a single question I've posed or any of the information I've provided. So WOW - what a brave position you've taken. You've consistently put words in my mouth, misinterpreted everything I've said and then accused me of some sort of anti-Semitic position I don't even hold. This is how EVERY damn conversation I get in with a fundamentalist like yourself goes. Then when an impasse such as this is FORCED by your inability to rationally detatch yourself from your deluded view of the world, it's suddenly whoever you are arguing with running away and hiding from the might of your skewed, one-sided view of history. Then you can claim a great victory for your pathetic cause. Say what you want and think what you want - nobody will ever be able to change your delusional "truths." You'll continue justifying terrible things and dismissing all comments not fully in support of Israeli actions as some fringe group instead of the reasonalbe voice of the majority of thinking people. Your proximity and partisanship has clouded any chance you have of seeing clearly. If you don't listen to me that is fine - I just hope someday someone can get through to you. The hate and prejudice dripping from your words is toxic - it's no way to live.

I think you and I are the conflict of the Middle East in microcosm. Because I could not have worded my view of your position better than what you wrote here. I believe you are the delusional one, and I believe you are blanking out any fact or viewpoint that calls you to look beyond what you think you know.

As I have said a number of times through this post, I am a gay man who was raised on a Native American reservation. I am as far as one can get from a fundamentalist, and view the religious right as the greatest single threat to my own life at this moment.

My views came from my working in and with Muslims in their own countries over 30 years. That, and a reaction to the extreme anti Jewish bigotry of my Irish American father. I believe in a two nation solution, but at this point in time, it must begin with the Muslims acknowledging Israel's right to exist, and followed by their rounding up the terrorists. Then we can force Israel to close the deal.

Just be honest, you're another dirty arab trying to scam sympathy in order to get money. durka durka jihad mohammed.

You probably have a lot of issues in your life that would cause you to make that comment. I hope your tough times pass and you become a decent person. Take care my ignorant friend.

Hey buddy, you know, you're right. How about we exchange sisters to help our families grow closer?

Salam.

Worst use of a novelty account i've ever seen.

I am so glad you shared this story. It's eerily similar to mine. I went to Israel as well, except on a pilgrimage type trip with a tour group. Our tour guide was Palestinian, and his son has severe autism. He managed to get him to Israeli doctors to diagnose it, but they refused to treat the boy because he's Palestinian. Last I heard, his wife was going to try to take the son to Jordan to be treated by doctors there.

And that wall. I am an easily distracted young woman, and I love to doodle to pass time. I was in my sketchbook drawing as we passed through. It was easy for us because of the tour group and I don't remember too much. The moment for me was when I was in my own doodle world, drawing I don't even remember what. I looked up to see where we were and I saw that wall and thought "oh hey it looks like the Berlin wall." It was one of those odd instances in which I have a very clear involuntary thought and it shocked me. I can't get the comparison out of my head now. That giant, concrete cage of a wall, some call it a fence, or barrier. But it is a gigantic wall of separation, you can't even really see the sunrise/sunset/horizon over it. I try to explain this to people and they hear but you just can't put the shock and anguish into their hearts without showing them. And oh, it hurts me that I see bumper stickers and online campaigns to help Israel. I know that there are wrongs done on both sides, but I so hesitate to help Israel with anything knowing what they do to the Palestinians.

I think I said too much but OP, I really want to thank you for saying what I have meant to say so much better than I can.

Edit: /u/photographic_mammory argued that there was violence coming from the Palestinians as well, and that I only showed one viewpoint, that I am "just someone else with an opinion." I would like to say that he/she is completely correct. The wall did stop a lot of violence from the Palestinians from what I understand. The wall did its job, with the unfortunate consequence that those inside the wall have much more restricted lives now. But I feel like that is much better known information, and that my perspective and that of /u/161719 are much less known. photographic_mammory is correct, though that I am just someone else with an opinion. However, Reddit has a reputation for calling people out as frauds and asking for sources for well-built arguments. This indicates to me that you are a community of critical thinkers (to an extent) and I expect you to hear my opinion, take what you already know, maybe investigate the issue further, and draw your own conclusion. So yes, I have my particular opinion among many. But building your opinion is your job.

"oh hey it looks like the Berlin wall."

exactly.

That giant, concrete cage of a wall, they call it a fence. I try to explain this to people and they hear but you just can't put the shock and anguish into their hearts without showing them.

exactly.

it makes me feel better to read this because then i know i'm not the only one and not crazy. thank you.

The feeling is mutual, friend.

Not crazy, just ignorant.

The Berlin Wall was built to keep East Germans from Escaping.

The West Bank Wall was built to keep Palestinian terrorists from infiltrating and killing civilians.

Do you understand the difference?

Are you one of those people that blindly believe that because some old text allegedly written by some old fart states that a group of religious people have claim to the land, they are entitled to, and fuck all who currently lives there?

Are you one of those people that blindly believe that because some old text allegedly written by some old fart states that a group of religious people have claim to the land, they are entitled to, and fuck all who currently lives there?

Nope, not even close.

Are you one of those modern old fashioned nutjobs that believe it's okay for terrorists of the causes you like to kill civilians of people you dislike?

except that prior to the erection of that wall, palestinians semi-regularly went infiltrated into israeli cities and blew themselves up.

Prior to the second intifada many many many palestinians had jobs in israel and would cross over every day.

Prior to election of Hamas the border security was much less tight and there was no naval blockade.

The view point of the parent post and your post are both only taking into account a single bias, and because of that you are not a part of a solution. You are just someone else with an opinion.

If you cannot think that israel also requires some security, some control over who crosses into israel to do what, etc, and you so easily forget blown up busses, clubs, and restaurants, then you cannot see the israeli viewpoint and you will never be able to see and end to the issue, because neither side will actually "lose", and only an end to hostilities can end the current situation.

I think the problem is that Israel would rather build a permanent wall and treat Palestinians abysmally and continue to break international laws, rather than withdrawal to the 1967 borders.

Well, at least you're clearly biased on the issue and I don't have to pretend you're a reasonable person who wants to critically examine his own point of views and see if they correlate with reality.

That political games between 2 heads of state completely changed your worldview on a complicated decades long issue tells me a lot. Peace talks are not dictated by AIPAC, and if you think AIPAC is what is stopping peace talks in the middle east, you just don't know all the much about it.

The view point of the parent post and your post are both only taking into account a single bias, and because of that you are not a part of a solution. You are just someone else with an opinion.

Yeah, nothing says solution like a fuck-off huge concrete wall

edit: And I'll also just add that your post suggests just a teensy bias of your own. You know, the way you describe the evil Palestinian aggression and none of the Israeli brutality, racism, or apartheid

Again, the wall was built with a purpose in mind, and it's effectiveness is very very high. That wasn't a political solution to the middle east problem - it was a solution to the problem of palestinian infiltrators setting off bombs in israeli busses and restaurants.

And I am certainly biased, but I am also not one of those people who claim everything israel does is great. I just think the parent post and many of the sub posts are very one sided and I'm bringing in an opposing view.

There has been plenty of things israel shouldn't have done, and continues to do that are wrong.

On the other hand I also remember that my uncles apartment building was hit by rocket which killed people, and that when I was in israel last I had to run to shelter several times because of air raid sirens, and that I was searched as we entered the mall because EVERYONE has their bag searched, etc.

I think you have some very good arguments, but perhaps aren't going about it in the best of ways. Would you mind elaborating your own experience in Israel? Perhaps a story to validate why you feel the way you do would lend credit to your arguments.

Nobody, in any of the texts, gave out about the border search.
It was the walls division of wealth and poverty, the tactic of stopping public transport to search civilians, already searched at borders. The availability of only the most basic healthcare. The segregation. The difference. The "you are guilty" pretext of all palastinians.

Its a border between israel and hostile territory. Do you get searched at the border between canada and the US, even though there's no war between the 2? Even though you're civilians? Of course you do, because countries like to control their own borders and who goes through them. If you go on a greyhound between canada and the US does no one check your passport? yes, they do.

The reason no one said anything is because its entirely normal for almost any country to question and if they choose to do so, search people who cross borders.

That isn't presupposition of anything. That is called border control and every country does it. countries that know there are groups wishing to infiltrate and create chaos do so with more rigorous methods.

That isn't a "you are guilty". That's "we need to know why you're coming here, you need to make sure all your papers are in order, etc."

They at once want israel to disappear and to still have everything israel provides.

Nobody, in either stories, argued against border control.

Do you understand that?
Nobody said the border control is wrong.
That wasn't what upset either person.

You've created an argument against no-one, against what no-one said.

Do you understand that?

except OP's post is all about how a man claimed his son couldn't get medical attention because of border control.

Much of the talk about the inhumane conditions are about the naval blockade and israel's border control with gaza.

no one said the words border control, but its 100% a border control issue.

do you understand?

See, the issue was bueraucracy, not security.
There was a difference, and a child, innocent but presumed guilty, lost his arm. Not because of a pat-down, but due to miss management, improper healthcare in his home town.
That same child will now grow up in a restricted enviroment, always presumed guilty, his hope of a good life diminished.
Not becauae of a security border.

Your argument was a rant about the essentials of border security, which was irrelevent in OPs context (but definitely symbolic of the major issue at hand.)

And Israel kills ten arabs for every Jewish Israeli. They even call them retaliation killings. So what Palestine really needs is a wall tall enough to stop Israeli helicopters from flying over and destroying buildings with women and children. Settlers will just murder Arabs, and they are never jailed.

Sounds like progress and efficiency.

I disagree with your viewpoint.

The "retaliation" part comes in because if israel doesn't "react" then they send the message that terrorists are free to attack with impunity. They aren't looking to kill civilians, they're looking to strike at those organizing or effecting attacks on israelis.

And settlers who do illegal acts are taken to court, and tried. In gaza people who attack israel are given money by hamas.

How many settlers have gone to jail for murdering Arabs? Arabs are protesting a new settlement and a private security contractor for the Settler murders one, what happens to the murderer? What happens to his relatives? Does his murdering an Arab give Arabs moral justification to murder people because he committed murder? How many Jewish Israeli women and children does his murder justify? Does his murder justify the punishment of his family? Should his children suffer? His house and his parents house be destroyed? Should his wife be murdered?

What does Jewish law say should happen to the private security contractor that murdered an Arab? To his family? To the women and children that live near him? What if you live near him and are killed because he murdered a Palestinian? Was that justified?

Israel does murder women and children without regard to anything they've done. They blindly punish relatives of hamas members.

Prior to the election of Hamas, Fatah was corrupt, bloated and ineffective. The people chose something else, not knowing what they were getting into. We say we support democracy, but only when it's a particular party we like. Fatah kept the status quo, didn't rock the boat, supported terrorism under the radar. Hamas made it clear how they felt about Israel and their opposition to them. But as far as I'd heard, they didn't steal the vote in '06. The people just voted for someone we didn't like so we cut off all support.

Hamas is absolutely and clearly against the existence of israel. They are 100% an enemy military organization. The election of Hamas in gaza (and the subsequent cancellation of all future elections) means that Gaza is controlled by an enemy military group.

Why should you support someone who is publicly calling for your destruction? You shouldn't. The gazans are free to elect whoever they want, and they did, and now israel is free to blockade gaza and restrict imports from israel.

I'm not saying they should do one thing or another. I'm just adding perspective for people who may not know the whole story and the US' policy that has done nothing but make the situation worse.

I don't think anyone is arguing against Israel having some control of its borders but people are noting that the treatment of Palestinians is inhumane and there needs to be a discussion on how to improve that. In the US, the coverage is very pro Israel and very little is said about palestinian side, that is the "lie" that the OP was disabused of.

"some control of its borders" is a ridiculous thing to say. What country only has "some control" of its borders?

OP is very heavily biased, just the other way.

To bring up the bad word again (murica) - I would submit to you that Murica has "some control of its borders".

If you submit that you should at least attempt to justify it.

Source

Source

Source

I didn't even go to Fox News for those. Need more sources?

that is infiltration caused by lack of ability, not lack of legal right to control borders. Israel is a much smaller country, and tighter control of the borders is more easily done.

What country only has "some control" of its borders?

Again, Murica meets the specific qualifications of your question. Not lack of ability, not lack of legal right, not lack of willingness; simply "some control", as opposed to "total control".

My answer was clear and you're nitpicking. I've already responded to your supposition and this isn't going anywhere fruitful.

Nitpicking? You asked a specific question, I gave you a specific example, with sources. If you should have phrased your question differently, then own up to it and rephrase your question. Otherwise, don't ask bullshit questions and start crying that someone answered the exact question that you asked.

No way OP is as heavily biased as you, all you've done is rant around about how everyone who holds a viewpoint, and an unpopular western one at that, can't see the other side. I think damn near everyone knows the Israeli side better than the Palestinian one

rant huh.

I think you are proving your are very biased as well. You make it seem as though the border is only the domain of Israel. Why should the palestinians have NO control of their border then?

I am indeed biased, no denying it. I am presenting a counter point to the parent posts and many of the sub posts. I am not attempting to hide my point of view in any way.

And gazans can be free control their borders when they are no longer in a state of conflict with israel the requires israel to make sure there are no more Karine A's or Victorias that are packed with weapons aimed at israeli civilians.

So you are content to jail an entire population? Good to know the type of person I was conversing with.

tens of thousands of gazans cross into israel every day for work. They visit family in other countries. They emmigrate to other countries. Your claim that the entire population is jailed is ridiculous on its face.

Every country that doesn't have a giant fucking wall across the border has some control of their borders.

[deleted]

I think you're mostly full of shit.

You do bring up a good point. I did mention that I know there are wrongs done on both sides, but I think that got overlooked in the large block of text, didn't it? I'll edit the post to bring that to attention.

You're implying that the construction of the wall lead to a decrease in suicide bombings, but there exists only a correlation. Over 40,000 Palestinians cross the wall from the West Bank into Israel today DAILY, many more illegally through gaps in the construction or through aforementioned means such as false identities. How is it that none of these 40,000 have taken up "terrorism"? How is it that not one "terrorist" can make use of the same channels for crossing the wall that regular Palestinians use for finding work and seeking medical care? What of the Palestinian holders of Israeli passports living inside Israel, who make up at least 20% of Israel's population?

You're falsely attributing your faith in Israeli security to a stack of concrete rather than to any change in Palestine's present political reality, as if Israel can hide behind its snipers and missiles for eternity. You are stripping the period of regular suicide bombings that you're referring to of the political context in which it was set - The Second Intifada - and instead attempting to portray it as something Palestinians just do whenever, for the hell of it. Do you honestly believe that when the Third Intifada happens, there won't be bombings in Tel Aviv again, because of some concrete wall 75 miles away? If so, you're dangerously ignoring reality and playing up short-term draconian security goals as if they have no impact on the long term political situation.

Also, this is a discussion of the wall which separates Israel from the Fatah-controlled West Bank. Gaza, Hamas, and their feelings towards Israel have little to nothing to do with it.

When the third intifada comes it will be called "Cast Lead 2", or something similar. I disagree with your view point and don't think discussion with you will lead anywhere. I am not ignoring any realities, simply replying to lots of muppets who just repeat "OMG APARTHEID WALL". The wall WAS built for the purpose of stopping infiltrations. It works. It does have a tangible effect.

The reason you believe that discussing this further won't get you anywhere is because you apparently don't have any explanation for the fact that any of the 2,000,000 Palestinians inside of Israel's borders at any given time aren't blowing themselves up, other than your claim that a wall to their east is somehow preventing it.

"Cast Lead II" implies that the Third Intifada will be a one-side bombing campaign. The reports from the IDF itself on that conflict very unequivocally state that Gaza City was silent and abandoned when they rolled in with their tanks, and that nearly every Israeli casualty of that "war" was a result of friendly fire.

That's not an Intifada. An Intifada is an uprising, which tends to occur when an occupying military thinks it can get away with killing thousands of civilians, imprisoning hundreds of thousands, and depriving millions of their livelihoods at any time it pleases.

I say WHEN and not IF because at Israel's present course and policy, there is absolutely no way that a third intifada will not occur at some point. And when it does happen, those bombings are going to start right back up because a person who wants to commit suicide can and will find a way to get around 100 miles of concrete.

The wall has a clear economic, social, and symbolic impact far beyond the damage it supposedly prevents. You should keep in mind that the wall does not just separate Israelis from Palestinians - it also separates Palestinian from Palestinian, as it is built inside of Palestinian territory and in many cases even cuts right through villages (necessitating the uncompensated demolition of Palestinian homes), breaks apart families, separates farmers from their fields, and annexes Palestinian territory into Israel in clear violation of dozens of international agreements to which Israel is a signatory.

And for all the bullshit I have seen about Israel=Nazis and Jews are puppetmasters and such I have seen in this thread, I have yet to see ONE mention of it even being called "The Apartheid Wall." Not that anything you've said would in any way contradict the wall serving a secondary purpose of racial segregation.

Then you will also take into account the Israeli aggression against the British, and the bombings of British embassy when the Jews first arrived.

If only things were as simple as you make them out to be.

Man, it really is a fucked up world we live in, eh?

you do realize that the wall keeps out Palestinians who put bombs onto Israeli buses and ice cream parlors? Since the wall was built, no bombings. Funny how that works out.

Did you know that murders in the US are primarily committed by minorities? If we rounded up all of the minorities and locked them in a reservation with guards and machine guns, the murder rate would drop significantly.

Why don't we? Discuss.

I have no opposition. Let's get this ball rolling.

(I hate to distract from your totally righteous point, but the US totally does do this.)

Ah, but that just proves that minorities commit more crimes.. More reason for the reserves... Maybe, after a few years, we could start issuing "work visas" for "good behavior". That would be fair, right?

rounded them up? Israel withdrew from gaza which was what gazans wanted. Israel is absolutely allowed to control its own borders, and its naval blockade of gaza is considered legal internationally as well.

America saw one big attack and suddenly shifted into a complete police state.

Israel has been in a state of constant threat with its neighbors and with palestinian terrorists for decades and decades.

Let's address some of your statements:

Isael Withdrwew - ...and built a huge fucking wall, with machine guns.

"Which is what Gaza wanted" - ask the average inhabitant of a US inner city, low rent district whether they want heavy government intervention in their lives, and they'll say no (even while relying on food stamps). When the only view of a government they have is that of oppression and discrimination, of course they will not want more.

Israel is absolutely allowed to control it's own borders - If I build a wall around an arid section of Nevada, and claim that it is outside the US borders, can I deport all the minorities there? Can I block all international aid except what I deign to give? Can I keep the media out? Can I put machine guns on the walls? Can I deport violent offenders to this new United States of Totally-Not-A-Prison-I-Promise?

The naval blockade of gaza is considered legal internationally - true, Israel has been wholeheartedly supported by the UN, in this terrible act. That doesn't justify it in any way.

America shifted into a complete police state - but still, oddly enough, we haven't walled off South Dakota and started deporting all minorities, felons, and political dissidents.

Palestinian Terrorists - I like this phrasing, by tying the two together, you can make all Palestinians sound like terrorists. It's a wonderful form of doublespeak.

1) I didn't ask why Hamas was elected. I understand why. I also understand that Hamas has stopped elections and that israel now has to deal with a gaza controlled by Hamas. That gazans dislike the results of their actions does not change that hamas controls gaza.

2) If nevada elected a group who openly supported and enacted strikes against other states, you're god damn right the US would clamp down the borders and the people responsible would be dealt with by police/military.

3) ¯(°_o)/¯ no response. I don't think I can trust Hamas to not use the sea to ship in weapons.

4) because south dakota didn't elect hamas?

5) no, its precisely what it means. Not all palestinians. not all terrorists. Specifically palestinian terrorists. No double speak.

"Since everyone is held out in jail or in a getto or dead there are no more terrorists".

See how that logic got like 3% of the US in jail and TSA checkpoints everywhere around any major center who force you to remove your shoes and unbuckle your pants belt "just to be sure".

before the wall=bombings

after the wall=no bombings

Jeez, Reddit--what the fuck?

If you're going to go that way...

"before the warsaw gettho = rich jews stealing from germans. After pushing them all in the warsaw gettho = no more rich jews and no more stealing".

They're doing exactly the same.

(can i have my godwin point now ? Thank you \o/)

as a German, I have never heard that Jews were stealing anything. They were, however, largely in control of banking, jewelry, etc. Hitler needed that money.

I imitated the nazi excuses for sarcasm; because israel mostly use the same to imprison the palestinians in a gettho :/

makes me wonder why King Abdullah of Jordan (who is Palestinian) doesn't take them? Jordan has plenty of room. Wait, he doesn't want those troublemakers either. The wall is working great, the street bombings have stopped. Endy story.

Yeah truly i wonder why he doesn't want to expatriate an entire country which means dozens of millions of people into his own while he already has tons of poverty and social issues while leaving israel to plunder palestine unchecked then start putting it's army at his border again...

Israel and it's bottomless access the american military hardware already kicked the arse of the entire combined region. The further away from the israelian military they are the happier they are :/

there is no such thing as 'Palestine'. That being said, I would not give Israel one penny. They must stand on their own feet. We also gave the Egyptians a shitload of planes, guns, etc. Talk about mixed signals...

Yeah but the Egyptians ain't trying to invade anyone ;-) And they keep the canal open.

We have the same sort of wall between TX and Mexico

And is shit really good in mexico ? I'm sure everyone there is alright with their beloved CIA funded Zeta cartel.

[deleted]

Yeah most of the Zeta cartel money originally came from drug operations built by the CIA to fund their off the books black operations without informing anyone about it. Said CIA who did let them rise without lifting a finger because they kept money and political leverage pouring to the US in exchange for guns; shady support and quiet US protection/immunity from rivals.

TL;DR : The Zeta cartel is like the local Hamas.

No we don't such a wall has been proposed many times but hasn't been built. There is a fence that doesn't even span the whole boarder. To compare it to the Israeli-Palestine boarder is asinine.

A better comparison would be http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto

The fucking IRONY

Fucking hell.

It's unbelievable how many parallels you can draw between how people were treated (including jews) by the nazi's, vs now how the Israeli government is treating Palestinians.

Believe me, I recognize the irony. I'm jewish and Israel can suck a dick.

"Believe me, I recognize the irony. I'm jewish and Israel can suck a dick."

Where are the similarities between the two situations?

Israel has taken a group of people, forced them into camps and built a fence around them and then cut off food and supplies. Just like the Nazis did with the Warsaw ghetto.

"Israel has taken a group of people, forced them into camps and built a fence around them and then cut off food and supplies. Just like the Nazis did with the Warsaw ghetto."

Wrong answer. First, food and supplies are NOT cut off. There is not starvation in either the West Bank or Gaza. You have no idea what did or did not happen in the Warsaw Ghetto, where more people lost their lives from starvation in a single year than have been killed on all sides in the I/P conflict since 1948. You seem to be just as poorly informed about the West Bank and Gaza. Read a little about the Warsaw Ghetto. You might be ashamed of even trying to make the comparision.

Food and supplies were cut off. Israel has been systematically disenfranchising and starving the Palestinians. I never said anything about the numbers of victims. It's called analogy.

"I never said anything about the numbers of victims. It's called analogy."

An analogy that fails.

You fail.

I was watching some rabbi on TV talk about how him and other Jews are against Israel. Saying something about how they are not supposed to have a land because their paradise will come in heaven (or something along those lines). Is that the kind of Jew you are?

Is that your opinion, or did you ask Drake what your opinion is?

It's not irony. The Zionists took the Holocaust as a how-to lesson. They are drawing directly from it in their own strategies.

If there was any more irony, Tony Stark would sue.

That's a terrible comparison. Go drink bleach for even suggesting there are similarities. If you said that to me in real life I would most likely sock you in the face for being an ignorant prick

Stop, Malachi. The JIDF already put your check in the mail

Yayyyyy nazis, no badguy is complete without at least one nazi reference!

It's not like what they are doing aren't comparable...

So yes, I have my particular opinion among many. But building your opinion is your job.

This should be part of the Reddit rules and regulations. Well said.

The Berlin wall was really short and thin (you could just boost someone iver it til they added the no mans land and the kill zones - it was put up extremely quickly with very poor quality concrete and haphazardly improved over the years. This sounds much more substantial than that.

It is. It's high with wire at the top. But just the split second impression of a concrete wall covered in elaborate graffiti, it struck a similarity to the Berlin Wall.

On a side note, I saw graffiti from Banksy while I was there. I didn't even know it was him, but I remember seeing it and it had such an impression on me that I had to go look it up to see if maybe I could discover what the artist meant to say.

knowing what they do to the Palestinians

Here's some more: http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/water.html

Wow, thanks for sharing that.

you can't even really see the sunrise over it

The sun rises in the East.

Depending on where you are, there might be wall east or west or north or south of you. I edited it for you, better?

Why don't you just delete your comment, because it is a made-up story?

Because it isn't.

they refused to treat the boy because he's Palestinian.

Bollocks.

More than 100,000 Palestinians are treated in Israeli hospitals each year (along with Syrians and Lebanese). All while they are "supposed to be" enemies. Do you think he was denied because he was Palestinian while the others weren't? How many Israelis do you think would get a treatment anywhere in that region?

How many Israelis do you think would get a treatment anywhere in that region?

How many would want it?

All good points. Israeli hospitals treat tons of Palestinians every year. Also true; they built the wall because they were fed up with suicide bombings. But there's a lot more to this story than just this stuff. You have to look back at the history of the entire conflict.

Agree

Treatment with what supplies?

Would that really be the reason, lack of supplies?

BTW, Israel sends trucks over with supplies every single day.

Btw Israel has stopped all supplies from every country including any from North America or Europe. Israel sends "enough supplies" that they calculated to keep palestinians alive. Enough to be alive, not healthy.

Your'e talking about gaza specifically. Its not true of the west bank where most Palestinians live. At gaza, which is ruled by a terrorist organization determined to destroy israel, supplies are being sent constantly (even from other countries) with a condition that the cargo is checked for weapons and rockets for hamas to use against Israel. all that on the border with Israel, the border with Egypt is controlled by the Egyptians.

O the government the people voted in after US and Israel pushed for elections then immediately refused to negotiate with as soon as they got voted in?

The US pushed for elections as part of "spreading democracy", Israel was reluctant. That "government" uses suicide bombers, target civilians and throws the opposition off of roof tops. They are terrorists and if the majority of people living there support them it only makes it sadder.

As opposed to the last government that tried repeatedly to work with US and Israel and resulted in Palestinian homes being torn down for illegal settlements and security stops. Yeah, why would the people vote differently hoping for change.

There wasn't a "last government" there, and all "settlements" were removed completely, but nice try...

o yeah im sorry, there's a fucking wall seperating them from west bank and the "approved" government. all settlements were removed completetly and left with what? the homes they had torn down to make way for them?

when you wall in people and back them into a corner, don't be surprised when they fight back

There isn't a wall there, there's a border, like in every country elsewhere. They got everything they demanded, with nothing in return and they chose violence. No one is fighting them, so they are not fighting back. They are just fighting.

if all of a sudden every israeli and every palestinian magically switched sides and kept all the others resources/lack of resources, do you honestly believe every israeli would be happy with what the palestinians have? how can you honestly say they got everything they demanded when they have a power outage CURRENTLY that's affecting 1/3 of gaza with daily outages.

Of course they were not happy, but that's true also for Egypt, Lyberia, Niger and any other place with a less developed economy. It's not Israel's job to provide them with every thing they want (although the power that does flow there is in fact provided by Israel). They got their demands politically, and since been focused on nothing but violence.

part of their power is provided by israel, and the fuel needed but obviously not attainable due to the blockage israel imposes caused their power plant to shut down 3 days ago.

don't mistake this for anything more than it is, this is inequality. segregation is never acceptable.

this is inequality. segregation is never acceptable.

It's segregation the same way as the US segregates Mexican people. It's Economic inequality is common across borders. If it wasn't then each one would have been in the exact same state.

The only way this would be the same is if the US controlled all incoming aid and resources coming into Mexico, and had a huge embargo on the majority of it, and have huge checkpoints that they would have to cross with registration cards that they have to approve and supply, which they could deny at anytime anyways

You seem to confuse Hamas controlled Gaza and the West Bank.

The IDF online front in full effect lol

Exactly, because if someone holds an opinion you don't agree with he must be paid to do so.

and prisons feed inmates every single day.

They are not prisoners, they just can't enter Israel without going through a checkpoint.

i understand. but simply giving them supplies doesn't show the Israeli gov. is actually interested in their well being. (I say gov. because I don't like when people attribute U.S. policies to actual Americans, so it's only fair to do the same with Israel)

The decision to treat them was up to the doctor. It seems from your statement that there are doctors who do treat them. My guide was unable to find one of those doctors. That's all I think I can really tell you.

Don't take my word, google it. I don't know anything about the specific case, maybe the doctor had good reasons, maybe he had very bad ones. But it's impossible to make a rule from just one anecdote.

Multiple doctors, he took the son to multiple doctors. But I understand that the issue may have been regional as well. I recall that people were incredibly different in different cities in Israel. Some were welcoming, some were less.

"I recall that people were incredibly different in different cities in Israel. Some were welcoming, some were less."

Sound like a lot of places and who really knows the reason. I also saw Palestinians from Gaza coming into Israel, at the Erez Crossing, for medical treatment. Some came for extended hospital stays.

They wouldn't be treated they would be executed.

Arab durka durka squad is fighting your logic with internet arrows.

I had a similar experience in Israel/Palestine. I was finishing my last year of education at a religious university, one whose fealty to Israel was undying. Fortunately, there were, at the time, a number of intelligent professors who encouraged cognitive dissonance. Anyways, one such professor led a trip to the middle east, where the majority of time was spent in a hotel in the west bank. The difference from one side of the wall to the other was striking.

Your anecdote about the girl and her grenade launcher brought back a "funny memory." We were at the Golan heights for half a day. I saw a young girl reaching up and adjusting her scrunchy. When she turned around, I could see that she had a huge assault rifle strapped to her back that was nearly as tall as she was. So strange, I took a photo.

Last anecdote. While we were in the west bank, I went walking around (this was back in 2010 I believe) with a couple of friends. We stumbled upon a dilapidated, shot up apartment block sitting next to a graffiti laden portion of the wall. Perhaps you've seen it - its most prominent piece is a likeness of the statue of liberty, though lady liberty has been replaced by a skeleton.

As we were examining the wall, taking pictures, and talking to some local boys (who showed us their makeshift ladder for taking (dangerous) peeks over the wall - they'd jammed pieces of thick wooden dowel in the cavities between cement slabs of which the wall is composed), a woman yelled down to us from one of the apartments, which we'd assumed were abandoned. Long story short, she had us in for tea, and through broken English, we learned about her story.

Same old, sad things. What stuck with me was the hospitality there, of which I saw little of back over on the other side of the wall. This woman, who's living in a shit hole, broken ass, shell of an apartment, whose possessions amount to little, was offering us westerners tea.

Anyways, I saw an image of that same spot, with the same graffiti, in Nat Geo a few years later. The apartments were gone and so was the makeshift ladder.

The world can be a very sad place.

This image is going to stick with me. Thanks for writing

For sure, thanks for reading.

do you mind showing us the pic of the girl? i am curious to see the picture

Sure, I'll try and dig up some pics tomorrow.

3 months ago

the pic, man! make with the goods

Yes..and we wouldn't know about this without you telling the world. Thank you.

this brought a tear to my eye, thank you for sharing

Most definitely, glad to.

To be honest I find the whole anecdote about the girl with the assault rifle to not be that shocking or astounding. In Israel you can carry more or less any weapon you so choose provided it's not loaded, and I basically completely agree with this type of gun control (IE very little.) It's the stigma around guns which leads to their use in so many murders in my opinion. They are, after all, just tools, exactly like a knife or a spade, both of which can and are used in a lot of murders.

I mean, look up some statistics and you'll find that Israel has much fewer uses of guns in crime per year than America, and also that more guns are used to prevent crimes such as rapes, muggings, and robberies over there.

To clarify, I do not condone any actions of the Israeli state, nor would I dare to suggest I know anything about the topic in truth.

I would like to note that military service is mandatory for Israelis that graduate high school. So the girls with assault rifles are in the military and have cause to be carrying it around. Even while off-duty, they're accountable for their guns. It's different from the US.

Very insightful comment. People up a few comments are acting as though Israel spawns monsters who carry guns in order to murder any Palestinians they see, and that is just not true I'm afraid.

Why do you think it is strange for a soldier to be carrying an assault rifle?

when I hear of people's experience of the middle east and I came across this incident. I am reminded of how Israeli's feel about us and what they have done to our country. http://wikispooks.com/wiki/9/11:Israel_did_it#Gomel_Chesed_Cemetery_Incident

I think every American history teacher should be forced to walk around in Jerusalem, then go through the wall to Bethlehem and walk around in Palestine before teaching students that colonialism is something that "used to" happen.

Thank you.

Where's Michael Moore when he's needed?

Burger King.

Lol

October 18, 2012 Israeli Government Consciously Planned to Keep Palestinians "on a Diet", Controlling Their Food Supply, Damning Document Reveals

Israeli military forced to reveal that Israel calculated the amount of calories Palestinians would need to avoid malnutrition.

An Israeli human rights organization, Gisha, sued in Israeli courts to force the release of a planning document for ‘putting the Palestinians on a diet’ without risking the bad press of mass starvation, and the courts concurred. The document, produced by the Israeli army, appears to be a calculation of how to make sure, despite the Israeli blockade, that Palestinians got an average of 2279 calories a day, the basic need. But by planning on limiting the calories in that way, the Israeli military was actually plotting to keep Palestinians in Gaza (half of them children) permanently on the brink of malnutrition, what health professionals call “food insecurity”. And, it was foreseeable that sometimes they would slip into malnutrition, since not as many trucks were always let in every day as the Israeli army recommended (106 were recommended, but it was often less in the period 2007-2010).

http://www.alternet.org/world/israeli-government-consciously-planned-keep-palestinians-diet-controlling-their-food-supply

How do they justify this to themselves?

Just like the other two major "holy books", scripture tells them they are the chosen people, above all others on the planet. Thus, they are allowed to make decisions for others that they would never make for themselves.

This is the central flaw in religion; that while it preaches peace to all mankind, it allows the mindsick to twist faith into a weapon of class warfare.

It is so in Judaism.
It is so in Islam.
It is so in Christianity.

not really :P

Nice verbose rebuttal explaining your stance. You outlined quite well why I'm wrong. You should take up a career in writing, get yourself an editor.

well. i didnt want to create huge argument over this, but i just want to say that in all my years of studying islam, ive never encountered anything that inferred or said that Muslims are the "chosen ones" or whatever, so there you go :P. Islam tells people treat everyone equally and encourages respect of people with different beliefs. :)

But there are aspects of fundamentalist Islam that feels adherence to Sharia is passed down by divine right. And they seek to enforce that law regardless of other considerations within their claimed territories.

You can nitpick the details all you want. But that won't invalidate my point.

i don't think you understand sharia law to begin with, sharia law is actually a great thing when you actually understand it and how it works. all Americans know about sharia law is what the news feeds them and whatnot. :/ you don't have to be so hostile :P. Its too hard for me to explain to you how Islam works so whatever, believe whatever you want.

they hate arabs, pretty easy to justify to themselves.

"Chosen people" ideology.

Religion is so bad

Well, they're giving food to people who are starving (and 2279 calories isn't exactly meager rations). The United States doesn't guarantee anything like this to its own citizens.

Just, you know... for comparison

They are starving as a result of systematic barriers put up by the Israeli gov. They are "solving" an issue that is caused by a system that is enforced by the government.

Just, you know... another way of looking at it.

This is true only of Gaza, and not the West Bank (where the majority of Palestinians live). But Israel never had any intention of maintaining control over Gaza. They ceded that territory (along with the rest of the Sinai Peninsula) back to Egypt in 1967. Egypt never accepted the territory, so Gaza is essentially unclaimed territory. It's not self-sufficient agriculturally and lacks even sufficient clean drinking water for its inhabitants. It's unsustainable. If it was its own sovereign nation, nothing would change or improve (except that Israel would no longer be pressured to feed the inhabitants of Gaza).

Yes, Israel put up barriers along its border with Gaza. I don't understand why it wouldn't have a right to do so. Gaza has essentially no farmland and can't feed its citizens. Why are you blaming Israel for that?

Gaza borders with Egypt aswell, supplying the 'minimal' (over 2200 calories a Day sounds fine to me but i'm no expert) by Israel ensures there is enough food so there's no violation of the international law during the blockade. just as the UN declared in its investigation after the Marmara thingie. This article is highly misleading but since I'm on my phone I can't do much more than I just said, I might come back to it later if there's a need.

On a personal note I think there needs to be a differentiation between Gaza and the West Bank by both the international community and Israel, and although there is no blockade in the West Bank I think our government should ease the life of the people there a little more than it currently does. About Gaza? Hell no, when Gaza will be as quite as the West Bank is, things will get better for them aswell.

Lol. U zionist piece of shit probably couldnt survive on a 5000 calorie diet.

Seeing your comment downvoted with only one reply, which tells nothing, insults you, but is upvoted —this is what explains /r/conspiracy pretty good.

Writing this just so you don't feel like you've wasted your time on writing this.

Only radically anti Israeli activists interpret that paper in the way you say. The document was desperately trying to find a way to guarantee that there be a basic minimum food allowance for all Palestinians.

The extremists have set up a situation where they won't send food unless the Israelis don't search for weapons and missile parts. It is the anti Israel lobby that wants to see mass hunger in the West Bank so they can use it against Israel. Israel is desperate to make sure this doesn't happen. Not because they are noble, but because they don't want the blame.

As Saeed Bannoura of the International Middle East Media Center reports, the Israeli government imposed a deliberate policy:

“in which the dietary needs for the population of Gaza are chillingly calculated, and the amounts of food let in by the Israeli government measured to remain just enough to keep the population alive at a near-starvation level. This documents the statement made by a number of Israeli officials that they are ‘putting the people of Gaza on a diet’.” (Saeed Bannoura, ‘Israeli government documents show deliberate policy to keep Gazans at near-starvation levels’, International Middle East Media Center, November 6, 2010 21:32)

And I am pointing out that these claims are anti Israeli "spin". It is the Islamic states that have kept the Palestinians locked in camps, in order to create a club to beat Israel with. Israel has repeatedly announced it will allow unlimited food shipments to the Palestinians as long as they can inspect the shipments to remove weapons and missile parts. Don't you find it interesting that "global" charities are not interested in sending food if they can't slip weapons in the shipments?

More like your spin is pro-Israeli propaganda. For instance, that flotilla from Egypt was boarded and had activists executed on board when they were carrying food through the blockade, not weapons.

What your saying is what the Israeli government was saying about the "diet" before they were forced to release the papers. Those papers prove that this is about food insecurity, not weapons.

Every honest soul on earth saw the flotilla for the propaganda stunt it was. The fact that you try and present it as a delivery of food is certain proof of just how biased your views are.

Through this period, Israel has repeated offered free access to any charity that wants to send food or medicine. All it asks is the right to screen it free of weapons and missile parts.

Are you really so far gone in your hatred of Israel that you can't admit that simple fact?

There were no weapons and only food on that flotilla. Activists were executed onboard for trying to bring in food. Period.

Let me say this once more to get it through your thick head. The Israeli government says that they monitor and limit food entering Gaza because of the possibility of weapons being shipped with the food. An Israeli activist group sued the government to declassify that report and it stated that the actual reason was to create "food insecurity" for Palestinians.

If you can't see that the Isaeli's are trying to wipe out the Palestinians as a people I don't know what to tell you. It's as clear as day.

All Israel asked of the flotilla was that it allow the shipments to be inspected, and they would grant passage to all the food the "charities" wanted to send. The flotilla refused. The charities refuse. Every honest soul in the world knows that Israel would be delighted if the world charities would send in the required food and medicine. One less headache for Israel. They just want to screen out weapons and missile parts.

You do acknowledge all the missiles being fired at Israel from Gaza, right? You do admit the thousands and thousands of missiles that rained down out of Hezbollah in 2008? Are you seriously saying that Israel should just roll over and take it?

Holy crap.

Thank you thank you thank you for typing this. As an Arab, i WRITHE in heart ache whenever i see anyone defend Isreal. its not because "oh, im muslim and theyre jews", its because Isreal is CLEARLY, quiet literally, destroying Palestine. My parents had an international satellite since i was 4, and i would be watching recordings of the war-crimes and BLATANT injustice done to a race, simply because of their ethnicity. Meanwhile, i hear people spew shit like how they "deserve" their own country and how those pesky Palestinians should stop being racist and let them.

You didnt get to witness the bulldozing of peoples homes with the familys still inside, as they scramble out with whatever they managed to grab. But you did witness the stiff-arming and profiling done just because theyre arab.

Now that youve witnessed this in person, do you understand when someone says they hate Isreal? specifically middle eastern countries? Its not about religion, its about human rights (though obviously racism/tribalism does creep in, as it would in any situation). The Palestinians would have had no problem integrating and living with an influx of jews who wished to leave in their holy land, but you better damn well believe theyll have a rpoblem when they start erecting walls and annexing more palestinian land without compensation.

Kinda makes you wonder, if you were living in Palestine and saw a forign military force ousting you and your neighbors from their home, would you take up arms against said nation? i wonder if thats happened...hmm..

Tbh, I don't mind Israel's existence in the middle-east as long as they don't play the innocent victim. They have transgressed many human rights that we don't hear of today, but of/c when Hamas acts up, it's all over the news. The U.S. should threaten to stop aiding Israel if they don't cut the shit.

edit: To those who argue that Israel's harsh domestic policy towards the Arabs is necessary: false, only thing that creates terrorists are aggressors. Remember when the Arabs controlled Jerusalem? Jews and Muslims actually got along. Sadly, it's not.

I don't mind Israel's existence in the middle-east as long as they don't play the innocent victim

this

Remember when the Arabs controlled Jerusalem? Jews and Muslims actually got along. Sadly, it's not.

and this. Not because Arabs are better than Jews at running nations or anything, but because of the mindset of Isreals leaders and their puppet masters. The only reason that plot of land was chosen is because it says so in the Torah, meanwhile if the Muslims ever try to use their book for justification, its called barbaric and shouldnt be implemented.

Youre on point. It drives me nuts when i hear someone actually defend israels actions because i know they dont know shit about the situation.

Its just as you said, its not because Isreal exists or is a jewish state, its simply a matter of Israel being a violent, imperious bully. The kind of way Israel treats arabs is the same as the germans treated the jews. its simply wrong, and (while im never an advocator for violence unless an imminent threat is on the way..) if you continue this behavior for now, 2 generations? thats alot of built up hate. Children are being born and grow up with this idea of Palestinians and arabs being "lesser" and Isrealis and jews are violent oppressors who will gut you if given the chance. It simply brews more problems, and unless one plans to exterminate an entire race, gunpower and explosives will make the situation much worse.

Unfortunately, i dont see an out for this conflict. Isreal thinks it should be there, just because, Palestinians think the opposite. Budging even slightly is losing

because it says so in the Torah

You know Israel existed there ages ago, historically speaking, right?

Israel treats arabs is the same as the germans treated the jews

seriously? You actually compare gassing millions of people to death is the same as giving arabs citizenship and representation in parliament?

You know Israel existed there ages ago, historically speaking, right?

You know that it was conquered and overtaken ages ago, historically speaking right? Ive already had this conversation before, spare me.

seriously? You actually compare gassing millions of people to death is the same as giving arabs citizenship and representation in parliament?

1. there was more to WW2 than nazis gassing people, alot of other things happpened believe it or not. if the gas chambers is the only incident you can pull info from, you should do some research before responding to comments about the topic.
2. I never compared it to nazis gassing people
3. What i did compare is the treatment of the people.
4. its not even about representation in parliament and neither my comment nor the one i responded to even mentioned representation. are you even reading?

You said:

The only reason that plot of land was chosen is because it says so in the Torah

You were wrong. don't try to change the subject.

there was more to WWII than nazis gassing people

Yes, there's much more, but gassing people is pretty much a signature move in the treatment of jews by germans. there were also mass graves and experiments too, all things that Israel would never do.

There were cases of nazis helping jews but i wouldn't define that as the "The nazis' treatment of jews". It was mostly the enslaving, abusing and killing...

p.s. If you're bringing up nazis and arabs you should remember they had quite a relationship back then.

You were wrong.

no im not. making brazen statements about a book that could easily be cited is not a smart move on your part.

Come on man, dont be stupid

don't try to change the subject.

coming from the guy who wants to talk about arab-nazi relations?

Yes, there's much more

great! then using your basic cognitive abilities one could deduce i was referring to the other things and not the gas chambers which obviously is NOT happening.

Yet you felt the need to bring it up. tell me again about me changing subjects?

go away gnat.

you're bringing up nazis and arabs you should remember they had quite a relationship back then.

no because im talking about Isreal and Palistine. Not Germany.

Changing subjects again i see?

I really can't tell if that's poe's law or not. It seems as though you don't get how a logic argument works.

making brazen statements about a book

I said nothing of any book. You said the only reason is because of what's written in a book. That's simply wrong, there are many reasons with or without the bible. simple.

one could deduce i was referring to the other things

The nazis also banned smoking in public places.. were you referring to that too? because there are many countries who do that, why pick on the nazis? When you throw around a comparison to nazi germany there's a reason... and you know it.

no because im talking about Isreal and Palistine. Not Germany.

I wasn't the one who brought up germany. You did.

The nazis also banned smoking in public places.. were you referring to that too

They also built volkswagons, GASP!! and had blonde hair! GASP!!!

youre just being stupidly coy at this point. go back to /r/Askreddit, youre much better at asking others. Good day

"The kind of way Israel treats arabs is the same as the germans treated the jews."

There are a few differences. Last I checked there were significantly fewer Jews in the world today than in 1939. Also last I checked there were significantly more Palestinians in Israel and elsewhere than there were in 1948. If we want to talk about comparisons with the Nazis, we also need to remember that it was the leader of Palestine's Arabs that spent the war in Germany meeting with Hitler and Himmler and helping to raise an SS unit. HINT---it is far better for Palestinians to avoid any phoney Nazi comparisons. Especially if you want to be taken seriously by more than the looneys on the fringe.

If you are going to sit here and nit pick every difference between the two, youre going to find hundreds if not thousands of differences, as one would in ANY comparison.

t is far better for Palestinians to avoid any phoney Nazi comparisons. Especially if you want to be taken seriously by more than the looneys on the fringe.

ive been hearing "avoid nazi comparisons" more and more often. No, i will make nazi comparisons if the comparison exists. There is nothing "loony" about comparing an event to Nazi Germany, despite you saying so.

Im not here to talk about nazis and Palestinian history. My comment was about the Palistinian-Israeli problem, if that 1 sentence was all you took my comment, i have nothing more to say to you

"I'm not here to talk about nazis and Palestinian history." I don't blame you for wanting to avoid the subject.

"My comment was about the Palistinian-Israeli problem..." So let's look forward. What what would be an acceptable solution, or at least one you could live with?

I don't blame you for wanting to avoid the subject.

Believe it or not, the subject isnt about nazis. If you actually bothered, i dunno reading my original comment and the one it responded to thats blatantly clear.

So let's look forward. What what would be an acceptable solution, or at least one you could live with?

This is how i know youre not even bothering to read my comments (or maybe you simply cant comprehend them), as i already addressed this in my first post.

Go back to /r/pocketwatch. youd be more constructive there

"Go back to /r/pocketwatch. youd be more constructive there...

Well Fred, you really hurt my feelings. I'd suggest that you join a forum where you could really fit in...Stormfront and David Duke come to mind. Peace, brother.

Stormfront and David Duke come to mind

yeah, label me a racist neo-nazi. Thats what most people fall back on.

Peace, brother

theres none from your end, thats for sure. make sure you circle jerk with your pocket watch bros. Good day

Tbh, I don't mind Israel's existence in the middle-east as long as they don't play the innocent victim.

This is how I feel but the constant bullshit that Israel is the sole victim is incredibly infuriating as the world takes a back seat to the stuff that is happening. And there's a good reason why Israel is such a hot topic in conspiracy circles. I realise there is genuine anti-Semitism but most of it centres around a theme that is seen in other conspiracy theories. There is silence around the topic and a really odd knack of media and politicians completely ignoring issues while giving Israel a free pass.

That's why it's such a huge topic. It's so blatant, yet it's largely ignored and untouched and there is a really sinister silence on the topic and accusations of anti-Semitism for those that choose to speak about it. I don't think it's all one sided but the Palestinians are being systematically plundered for the land they live on year upon year while claims of a peace deal keep getting trotted out. To me it seems as if the peace deal is never intended to be accepted and it just gives more time to make the land the Palestinians live on smaller and smaller.

If the current course continues, then it won't be that much longer until all the land is gone and the people are cast out as refugees. All of this is based on a fictional book written thousands or years a go taken as fact by some extremists that claim they are chosen by god.

Answer is simple, zionists control the media.

I think that has an element of truth to it and it's a lot more simple than people seem to think it is. A lot of media is Jewish owned, why would they start printing bad things about Israel? It really is as simple as that and it's why in combination with the huge lobbying on capital hill Israel is so effective at getting things they want.

In Netanyahu's own words.

Historically inaccurate. When the Jordanians ruled Jerusalem between 1948 to 1967 there were many terrorist attacks in Jerusalem done both by the PLA and the Jordanian/Palestinian Fedeyeen.

And when did Israel first occupy Palestine? exactly.

There were others before 48, and throughout history.

There were also terror attacks before Israel was founded. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Palestine_riots (a very interesting article, read it through) What is Palestine? Exactly. There was never Palestinian sovereignty or even a nation until Israel came along, up until then, they saw themselves as pan-Arabs. But Most Arab nations who joined the war wanted to take the territory for themselves.

don't you know how Palestinians were ripped by England in the Mandate?

edit: sykes-picot/Balfour after WWI

Nationbuilders frequently engage in campaigns of destabilization to make it easier to seize what it is that they want.

See: American foreign policy in regards to the Middle East, South America, "Southeast" Asia.

"Remember when the Arabs controlled Jerusalem? Jews and Muslims actually got along. Sadly, it's not."

I am surprised to read what your wrote. When the Arabs controlled the Old City and Eastern part of Jerusalem from 1948-67, the Jewish Quarter was destroyed and Jews were not allowed access to the Western Wall or any part of the old city. Jerusalem, as you know well, was divided by a ceasfire line and barbed wire. It was only after 1967 that the Jewish Quarter was rebuilt.

The U.S. should threaten to stop aiding Israel if they don't cut the shit.

Unfortunately, this will never happen. It is well documented that in order for an American to join the political class at any level of influence, they must tithe properly to centrally owned Media conglomerates, some of the most influential of which are run and operated by pro-Israel Zionists. The only place politicians can get that level of continuous money is from special interest groups, some of the most generous of which are comprised of pro-Israel Zionists.

When politicians take this money, it is understood that they will toe the line with pro-Israel Zionists on issues of import. In exchange, part of the money that the politician secures for pro-Zionist Israel finds it's way back to their campaign chests, and enriches the shell organizations that these politicians have set up for this (among other) purpose.

Therefore, any American politician that takes a hardline stance against the actions of pro-Israel Zionists will find (at the very least) that their campaign contributions have dried up. Without that money, they cannot participate in the discussions the influential pro-Zionist media is having in the election cycle, and the politician's campaign fails outright.

This ensures that a certain agenda is not only always in play, but always protected and self-policing.

Pro-Zionist Israel is marginalizing the American voice as well as the Palestinian. The methods are different, the result is the same. More for pro-Zionist Israel, less for everyone else.

EDIT: Ask Helen Thomas, she'll tell you.

"Remember when the Arabs controlled Jerusalem? Jews and Muslims actually got along." Are you being serious or circle jerking? You have no idea WTF you are talking about.

I want to ask you, why are we paying tax money in the U.S. so that they can aid Israel with a few billion dollars, when all they do with that money is pay people like you to spread hasbara?

edit: in case you don't know, during the Arabs' reign of Jerusalem before the Crusade, the Arabs and Jews actually got along. Why don't you pick up a real text-book, and not one tainted by zionist authors who love the lie.

I have not been paid by anyone to spread what you refer to as "hasbara." My reference to Arab control of Jerusalem refers to the time period when Jerusalem was controlled by Jordan, prior to the 1967 war. So you assumed I was taking about the Arab's reign of Jerusalem before the Crusades when I was talking about Jordan. You should communicate with me before making erroneous assumptions.

If it makes you feel any better, I'm jewish and I had to start reading up on my own after I met some young Israelis that were straight up douchebags. Everyone I met from Israel was brainwashed.

Have you seen the film "Defamation"? Its sickening how they teach young Jews that goyim are out to kill them, they take the school kids to Auschwitz to solidify this fear in them, the irony is that indoctrination and fear mongering is what the Nazis did to the German population to make them hate Jews, sad situation in indeed.

That's why there is a difference between Jews and zionists! I'm not antisemetic at all, some of the best people I know are Jewish. On the other hand i am very against Zionism.

"I had to start reading up on my own...Everyone I met from Israel was brainwashed."

What did you read? What exactly were those you met brainwashed about?

What makes me more sad though is when I meet people who have lived their whole lives in the us and have multiple ways to get their own information, yet still let themselves be brainwashed by Israel...

I'm really happy to hear you decided to do your own research!

doesnt matter to me what you are. Myself (muslim), a christian and a jew, all friends, stormed barricades in DC and bull horned gestapo police together during the shutdown.

It comes down to as you indirectly said, its about knowing the truth and being for justice, and liberty, everything else is just noise. Im glad you had an awakening, sorry you had to meet nasty people for it to happen though. Theres a small movement of jews against Zionism in Isreal, but they are no doubt kept under the thumb of TPTB

Everyone I met from Israel was brainwashed

remember that jewish friend i mentioned just now? her and her familey were even given the opportunity to move there to a subsidized house for cheap. Luckily, they were not fans of the country because they know of the blatant occupancy of the land and the stiff-arm tactics that are used

"The Palestinians would have had no problem integrating and living with an influx of jews who wished to leave in their holy land..."

I think former Palestinian leader Haj Amin al-Husseini was talking rather differently when he met with Hitler and spent much of WWII in Germany. We know what he wanted in 1948. Same for the the PLO's leader in the Spring of 1967, who in the leadup to what he expected to be an Arab victory, said he thought no Jews would survive in Palestine after it was liberated. His name was Ahmed Shukiari. Even the current PA President said in 2011 that "not a single" Israeli would be allowed to live in a future Palestinian state.

Until necessity forced a change in rhetoric and tactics, the Palestinians were dead set against any significant Jewish presence anywhere in what was madatory Palestine. But maybe times change.

another comment about Nazis, and half truths? who are you trying to bait here, because it certainly isnt going to work on me.

Bro. go away.

"another comment about Nazis, and half truths? who are you trying to bait here, because it certainly isnt going to work on me.

Bro. go away."

Fred, I think you need to become a bit less emotional and more logical. Is any of what I stated not true? Didn't the Mufti ally himself with the Nazis during WWII? Weren't almost all Palestinians, then and for decades after, opposed to Jews coming to Palestine/Israel? If I am factually wrong, Fred, please point it out.

return to /r/pocketwatch, that subject is more down your ally

"....return to /r/pocketwatch, that subject is more down your ally."

Fred, tell ya what. I will got to the pocketwatch forum if you to back to the Stromfront site. You really will find a home there, and lots of people who will eat up your rants.

yeah, because i dont want to talk about Nazis with you and your failed attempt at derailing the subject, better label me a neo-nazi so you feel better!

Youve shown your true colors for everyone to see. take a hint and Good day.

Israel is having an influx of african refugees, ethiopians, somalia's etc

It's already causing them major problems

Karma's a bitch eh?

You know what, dude? You blew your chances of peace.

• Israel accepted a very small state in 1948. Five Arab countries attacked Israel and denied the partition. The Arabs lost. Jordan took the West Bank.

• Egypt and several Arab armies lost the six-day war to Israel. Egypt had prior to the start of the war blocked the Straits of Tiran and moved forced through Sinai, clearly violating the peace agreement from 1948.

• Syria attacked Israel on the holiest of Jewish holidays in 1973. Israel was unprepared, but won - again.

• Israel withdrew from Sinai and forcibly uprooted Jewish villages to make peace with Egypt.

• Israel signed and implemented the Oslo Accords. Palestinian school children still have maps without Israel on them and still see the pink rabbit on TV that teaches them that Jews are rats.

• Israel unilaterally withdrew from the Gaza Strip, leaving in to Egypt to open their border to their Palestinian brothers. Egypt didn't do this. More than 10,000 rockets have been fired from Gaza at Israeli civilians.

• Palestinians enjoy some of the highest living standards among Arabs. Including those in Gaza.

But you know what? You fuck it up. Yourselves. No Arab country works. Until you realize this, you'll never get good lives. I hope a peace deal is signed and that Israel completely closes her borders to the new state (this is obviously any state's right). Let's see if Palestine becomes a rich country overnight.

I don't think so. But as long as Israelis can't get a peace deal, you'll have Israel to blame for everything that Arabs fuck up themselves.

As an Arab, i WRITHE in heart ache

Do you also writhe in heartache over Morocco's occupation of Western Sahara?

Do you writhe in heartache over the way Palestinians are treated by their Arab brothers in the refugee camps they have been forced to live in for decades?

maybe, but as you can see, im specifically referring to 1 incident. want to talk about Palistinian relations in the Arab world, then make your own thread about it.

if you want to start listing off world events to see my opinion on each one individually, be my guest. dont expect a response because what you suggest is ridicules. i certainly dont need to prove anything to you.

maybe

Then you'd be a rare exception. Most Arabs or Muslims I have spoken to aren't even aware of these things.

Non-Muslims oppress Muslims? Genocide! Holocaust!

Muslims oppress Muslims? Denial. "I don't know enough about this to talk about it". Or the aggressors are simply claimed to be non-Muslims (see: Syria, Iraq) and the aggression is blamed on THE WEST.

youre still not on the same subject

So, what is your opinion on the occupation of Western Sahara, the Palestinian refugee camps? I might add Indonesia's genocide of Western Papua's indigenous population.

Do you have an opinion?

This is the only topic you seem like youd want to talk about on reddit. Im not playing your game, get the hint? Make a topic on the subject, and if i see it, ill respond and youll have my opinion. Until then, youre better off baiting people dumber than you

Of course you don't care about that. It's really convenient the way your heart wreathes.

Gonna go write my congressman to send israel more bombs. I'll ask some ammo troops over there if they'll write your name on a few.

I have tried to keep a civil tongue and open mind with the comments here, but I would like to let you know that you aren't even making an argument. That was rather insensitive of you.

Was there a "how 2 troll" book from Fisher-Price that was published recently? lots of children these days think they know how to troll flooding the internet

Wait... you want arabs to treat palestinians like humans too? but but, Israel.

Mohammed, you're so full of shit I'd swear I just wrote that. The slightly more civilized Arabs that can communicate are getting a hard on from this antiIsrael nonsense.

It's not about human rights, that is hilarious.

You say you hate an entire nation, an entire people, then complain about profiling. Maybe if your cousins weren't straping bombs to women and stupid kids things would be different.

Would you like lessons on how to troll? for 9.95 every two weeks, i can teach you.

I have to ask. The rampant poverty in Palestine is not limited to Palestine. Human rights violations are not limited to Palestine in the Arabic world. Why do you think the Arab Spring as had so much success? The same issues in Palestine of poverty, human rights violations, limited freedoms are present in almost every Arabic country. Is Israel to blame for those conditions as well?

No, but Israel doesn't claim ownership of the rest of the Middle East. They don't actively control the rest with their military. They don't put up fences throughout and limit mobility of the rest of the muslim world. They don't kick Egyptians out of their houses so they can erect settlements.

Israel either needs to take responsibility for those areas, or relinquish their claims. Palestine needs to either be independent (in which case you might actually have a point), or be a true part of Israel. The current status simply doesn't fly.

what the fuck?

Apparently, i cant feel bad about a specific issue on r/rconspiracy because i get bombarded withstupid people waving around incidents saying "oh yeah? what about THIS? you didnt say you feel bad about this!".

The rampant poverty in Palestine is not limited to Palestine

im not referring to poverty, but yes poverty is everywhere in the world.

Human rights violations are not limited to Palestine in the Arabic world

Correct, i never stated otherwise

The same issues in Palestine of poverty, human rights violations, limited freedoms are present in almost every Arabic country

Cool story bro, what does this have to do with the Palestinian Israel conflict? nothing? oh ok.

Is Israel to blame for those conditions as well?

Read my post again. Im talking strictly about Palistine and Isreal. I have never insinuated Isreal is the root of all problems this world ever has and ever will experience. Why you are phrasing your questions as if i did is beyond me.

Israel. Palestine.
Stay focused kids.

Yeah, "look over there at THOSE bad things" arab michael moore says.

"THOSE things support my cause, and are convienient especially since white american OP already expressed sympathy!"

cool story bro, but contrary to you and the people you associate with in your life, i dont speak out against injustices if they "support my cause". I do it because theyre, you know, bad and unjust. Crazy right?

perhaps you need a better set of friends to pull you up? ill pray for you.

Yes, Israel is to blame.

Israel was the reason U.S invested so much in the Egyptian army, Egypt had its elected president, and if things went well there, most of the other countries will follow Egypt lead. but U.S didn't want that, because Any democracy in the middle east will be against Israel and US doesn't want that.

The US invests in Egypt and Saudi Arabia for power and influence. That's also why they invest in Israel. You have it the other way around.

Who said that Israel was to blame for the conditions of foreign countries?

Israel bears most responsibility for the situation of the Palestinians just as Hosni Mubarak was mostly to blame for the situation of the Egyptians. There isn't some third party here that completely made both situations, unless you want to take the "blame America" route without holding a single American puppet state responsible for its own actions.

Every history teacher should be made to walk from Israel into the Palestinian slums ... but you know most of them would not be changed by it. The power of the human mind to turn away from truths it does not want to recognize is astonishing. The Israelis depend on it to keep Americans brainwashed about the real nature of Israel.

[deleted]

A Belgian guy made a documentary about the colonies. He went to both sides and did interviews on both sides, showing their view on the conflict.

He put the trailer on youtube, two days later it got removed 'because its content violated YouTube's Terms of Service.'

http://www.tgifdoc.com/

Here is the site of the documentary with the trailer.

what about every politician that is paid off by israel?

Most don't need to be paid off. You don't go gunning for a strong lobby to oppose you when you're a politician; that's bad politics. It's like being anti-(pick a business). Why would you do that? It makes you an enemy and most people don't care either way. One strong enemy is more detrimental than two strong friends are helpful.

"Every history teacher should be made to walk from Israel into the Palestinian slums..."

How about first making sure every history teacher is made to actually study some history?

I am grateful for this response. Thank you. I'll show it to my grandmother, who has traveled to Jerusalem, and ask her of her experience and if things have changed in 20 years.

What was her response?

I traveled to Palestine and Israel two years ago. I went with a class and we spent 10 days there. Your story is spot on. We traveled to Bethlehem, Jerusalem, Nazareth, Hebron and several other places. It was intense.

We came into the West Bank through the Allenby/King Hussein Bridge through Jordan b/c we had a member of the group who was half Palestinian so we couldn't fly into Tel Aviv. At the checkpoint, we got in late and ended up staying there for several hours b/c the Israeli military who were at the checkpoint interogated (yelled and verbally abused) the member of our group who was half Palestinian, along with another woman who was Indian. We were the last group to be able to leave the check point, while we waited for our two members to be released, we sat outside of the bus and as a scare tactic, the Israeli military members (who were all extremely young looking and carrying automatic weapons) blasted music from one of their Jeeps.

We finally we able to leave. From there we traveled to Bethlehem where we saw the Church of the Nativity (where Jesus is said to have been born) and saw the bullet holes from the Second Intifada and met Palestinian giftshop owners who have been blacklisted.

The Wall is an everpresent entity. It literally cuts through olive groves that used to sustain families and are now in a no man's land. And the ironic part about the Separation Barrier is that Israeli's claim it is for security purposes and yet we walked through areas where the wall hadn't been completed yet, walked though, with no one stopping us. No guards, no cameras, not even fences there. The wall isn't there for security, it is to separate. To cut off people from there homes and their land. And then to leave that land open to settlers. To build more settlements, which are illegal.

We saw segregated streets in Hebron. Where Israeli's are allowed to drive on one side of the road and Palestinians are allowed to walk on the other side. There was a group of young Israeli school children walking from one end of the street to the other being chaperoned by three armed men, who were their teachers. The doors to where Palestinian vendors used to set up shop were welded shut by the Israeli government to cut off commerce. In some parts of Hebron, Israeli settlers have literally pushed out Palestinian families from the second story of their houses and now occupy the second story, while the Palestinian family must now live only on the first floor. The settlers have taken to throwing trash and rocks, sometimes worse things like acid and human waste, onto any Palestinian who walks in the alleys, so there are now chicken wire and metal coverings in some of the alleys, to catch the larger things thrown. Hebron was the worst place we went too.

We were only there ten days and these stories are only a small fraction of what we saw and experienced. There were days where it was just too tiring to speak. Sometimes we just wondered what new horrors we would learn about. But I don't regret it. We also met some amazing people who risk their lives and freedom to give tours of the wall and places like Hebron, who just want to raise their family, or who travel across the wall and countless checkpoints to go to university. Sorry so long as well.

I have lived there for several years and what you have shared to all was spot on. Thank you.

Being an American citizen, I thought that when I was younger that heading from Jordan to Palestine would be a breeze.

They didn't care that I was American. They only cared that my parents were Palestinian. 12 hours later a hundreds of dollars poorer, I was sent back to Jordan without being able to step foot into Palestine.

I have a friend that told me that Palestinians are at the bottom of the totem pole in that part of the world. He said they are considered a lower class. Is it true, or is he full of shit?

Eh, a lot of countries consider them Palestinians a nuisance. Jordan is the biggest, since there are more Palestinians there than any other country. They are usually lower class since they came to the country without anything.

However, the idea of Palestinians is revered. Ita is a rallying cry to unite Arabs against a common foe. However, these countries also don't want to take these Palestinians in as it is a strain on their economy. So they will cheer and fight... But not much more than that.

I don't believe any of this shit. I think that banking interests are playing Israel/US against a contrived boogeyman (Palestine/Everything else). It's all bullshit, and we give US tax dollars in the BILLIONS so that Israel can purchase weapons from US war contractors.

I don't see how it can't be both of what we are saying. Yes, the money we give to Israel in aid is pretty much all spent back buying weapons from US companies.

But the view of Palestinians in other ME countries is neither here nor there. It is a separate issue.

Oh, sorry, I came off harsh there. I agree, a little bit of each.

Sweet Jesus!!! Someone apologized on the Internet.

"Being an American citizen, I thought that when I was younger that heading from Jordan to Palestine would be a breeze."

Sorry you didn't realize you were heading into a conflict area. Maybe one day there will be a peace agreement and it will be the breeze you expected.

I knew I was going into a conflict area. I just thought that my American Citizenship would allow me the freedom to pass through quickly. However, because I was obviously Arab that was not the case.

Thanks for yet another insightful comment from my favorite Egyptian redditor. Your comments during the fall of the Morsi regime were extraordinary and heart-wrenching. At one point we weren't sure you were going to make it!

I read your words to my wife and we cried. I checked your posting history all day and was so relieved when I saw you post again. You do a great job putting human faces on the crises of the Middle East. Shukrun!

American support of Israel has nothing to do with supporting the Jewish cause. It has nothing to do with supporting democracy in the Middle East. It has nothing to do with defeating terrorists.

I would say what it does have to do with, but every time I do say it on reddit I get downvoted. Maybe not on this sub. I've never posted anything here before.

Say it then. I'd like to hear it and given this sub's open mindedness regarding controversial subjects I doubt you'll be downvoted.

I'm not afraid of being downvoted, I just wanted to point out that people don't want to hear the truth, perhaps because it actually sounds pretty stupid.

I'm far from a conspiracy nut, but the reason that the U.S. gives two shits about Israel is because the Christians in this country have convinced our government to support Israel in order to to have the Mosque on the Temple Mount destroyed so that the Temple in Revelation prophecy can be rebuilt thus initiating the return of the Christ and the start of the Apocalypse. Christians in Congress and the White House of the 1950's were not difficult to be persuaded into this conspiracy. And today the public is constantly reminded that Israel is under constant attack and must be protected at all cost because "it's the right thing to do" when in fact it is religious extremism that is pushing the agenda.

After Jesus's triumphant return, the U.S. will not give a crap about Jews and Palestinians. That is the plan, anyhow.

I would agree that the Christian right uses it's political power to force Congress to support Israel. I remember being reminded in church that a government that turns its back on Israel will be doomed. I don't have enough information to make a declarative statement concerning the existence of an active conspiracy to rebuild the temple.

Thanks for the response.

Yeah. I remember hearing that in my Ex's church.

It was then followed with (only slightly paraphrasing,)

~"And this is a church, and I won't tell you how to vote, but the bible says that those who stand against Israel will not have a seat at the kingdom of heaven"~

One of the many reasons I rejected protestantism. It became infected with Zionism a long time ago and many hundreds of thousands of pastors are already on the governments payroll in order to guide their "flock" in certain directions that are government approved.

This crap is so prevalent that even some of my family members will repeat those mantras to me if I bring up the crimes of zionist Israel. It's hard to get past people's brainwashing.

I won't deprive you of your imaginary internet points for being wrong, but such ideological concerns always come second for Congress. It has a lot more to do with the fact that Israel is America's laboratory for testing out its weapons and tactics against insurgent Middle Eastern anticolonial movements. Most of what we've seen in Iraq and Afghanistan was first applied in Palestine. Israel is a blunt tool that America can wield for bashing in any Middle Eastern government or movement that would challenge its hegemony in the region. Saudi Arabia is the money, Israel is the proxy muscle.

Do you have any proof to back this claim?
From what I know the only thing the political elite and ruling elite want is power and control. Even the religious heads of the major religions don't believe in their own mythology of course in public they say they do but in reality they do not.
So, maybe religious Christian have campaigned to politicians to do as you have mentioned, and what the politicians have told them they will do so, but they are doing so for different reasons just to keep the Christians quiet and satisfied.
It is all about political control of people, thus resources, money and power.

I wouldn't discount this element but the defining factor is the ability of Israel lobbies in the US. If you look right back even to Desert Storm (1992), it was Jewish academics who setup the deal with Richard Perle etc and Ahmad Chalabi. These people have been a constant in US foreign policy for over two decades and they are still influencing it.

There needs to be a very clear and calm discussion about how much influence Israel has on US foreign policy because history tells us that recent US wars have been favourable for Israel and they wrote and recommended it happened but America ended up doing the dirty work and all that come with that.

I'd just like to add that this thread has been incredibly good to read and well mannered throughout. The usual mudslinging and accusations are pretty much none existent for such a hot topic.

Do you believe that Jesus was more than a man, and will return?

No. I don't even believe he ever was a man.

If it's safe to post that anywhere, it's r/conspiracy. :) I think that's a huge part of it, especially the beginnings of how we got there. But also having a military presence in a region that hasa large amount of oil and unstable governments a large Soviet presence (during the cold war) gives legitimacy to modern politicians who may not have whackadoo apocalypse beliefs. It's on of the few places with oil that isn't either under the West's or Russia's thumbs and the last region where American Military Might is contested.

Why don't you go ahead and just say it.
even if you get down voted, people who have never heard of or realised will also see it.

I did here.

Say no more. Only a few individuals realize who is really moving and shaking things.

say it! I'm curious

Here you go!

sniff but..sniff...mama I don't want to have the number next to my name go down because that means the invisible internet people ill never see or meet don't like my opinion.

My point was that the actual reason for American interest in Israel seems so ridiculous that it gets quickly downvoted, not that I'm afraid to say it.

I live in Germany, my history teacher used to tell me that Israel is not all good, and that people from both countries are responsible for all the nonsense that's going on. Also that the media is mostly too friendly towards Israel.

I respect your history teacher. Mine had always led me to believe that Palestine was completely in the wrong.

Because of my teacher, I was actually really surprised that so many people didn't know about Israel's role in that conflict when I saw this thread a few hours ago.

"I live in Germany, my history teacher used to tell me that Israel is not all good, and that people from both countries are responsible for all the nonsense that's going on. Also that the media is mostly too friendly towards Israel."

Did you ask your history teacher to give you an explanation of why he/she thought the media was too friendly towards Israel?

No, but he told us (and I think it was in our textbook as well) what Israel has done wrong and what Palestine has done wrong.

I don't remember much of what he said about the media, but I think German media still has a tendency to back off from criticizing Jews because of the holocaust. I do remember that shortly before we had that topic in school, a German author was accused of being antisemitic when he wrote a poem criticizing Israel.

"but I think German media still has a tendency to back off from criticizing Jews because of the holocaust."

Doesn't it depend on the nature of the criticism? Criticism, after all, can be constructive or destructive. One can criticize Israeli policies and support the need for compromise. That is constructive. Asserting, as some on this forum do, that Israel is doing "the same thing" to the Palestinians that the Germans did to the Jews" is not only false, it is malicious. It demeans those making the assertion and does nothing to help the Palestinians.

I'd like to pose some questions to you to ask yourself. Do you think the Jews have any right to a state at all, in any borders? What do you think would be a just settlement of the conflict? I have visited Germany a couple of times and was recently in Berlin. Do you think Germany's treatment of the Turks offers an example for Israel to follow? Making multiculturalism work is a challenge for any society. Do you think it is working in Germany today?

The author you mentioned was Gunther Grass, I believe. There are mixed opionions about him. I think Israel missed an intersting chance to invite him to come and disscuss/debate his views. I don't know if he is anti-semitic or not. My sense is that he, and many of his generation in Germany, have deeply mixed feelings about Jews. That is certainly true for many older Germans I have known personally. Have you ever talked about this with your parents or grandparents? Do you feel they would speak honestly to you about what they remember and how they feel about it?

Doesn't it depend on the nature of the criticism?

To some degree, I suppose. I think they there's still a slight bias towards not constructively criticizing, though.

that Israel is doing "the same thing" to the Palestinians that the Germans did to the Jews"

Certainly not what I think.

Do you think the Jews have any right to a state at all, in any borders?

I think that everyone should be allowed to live where they want to live. The most important question should be the legitimacy of the government, and I think choosing one democratically with (voluntary) votes from everyone living in the respective area is one of the best options we have for maximizing that.

What do you think would be a just settlement of the conflict?

I'm not sure such a thing is possible given the warmongering from some factions and their mutual hatred. If it is possible, I suppose the best option is to have two seperate recognized states, though I don't know what the borders should look like.

I have visited Germany a couple of times and was recently in Berlin. Do you think Germany's treatment of the Turks offers an example for Israel to follow? Making multiculturalism work is a challenge for any society. Do you think it is working in Germany today?

I would say it's mostly working in Germany, though there could definitely be improvements. But I think the German situation can't be directly applied to Israel and Palestine, because the initial conditions are quite different. Both feel like the Levant is where their people belongs historically and religiously. That's not the case with Germany.

Have you ever talked about this with your parents or grandparents? Do you feel they would speak honestly to you about what they remember and how they feel about it?

My parents, and I think my grandfather, share the views of most people I know, namely that antisemitism is horrible as is what happened during the 30s and 40s in Germany. I'm pretty sure that they are honest about it, as well. My grandmother probably doesn't really have a strong opinion about it, but she tends to remember her youth quite often. When she talks about it, she just says what happened, without being for or against it.

I appreciate your answers. You might want to have a look at the Clinton Parameters, issued in late 2000. They provide a very good outline of a settlement. Sadly, Mr. Arafat could not bring himself to accept them. Even today, the Palestinians could put the Netanyahu government on the defense by accepting them. Have a look at them:

http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/view.background-resource.php?resourceID=910

"I would say it's mostly working in Germany, though there could definitely be improvements."

My impression, at least in Berlin, is that there is little integration. Turks and Germans live in largely separate worlds. The Turks do have access to many social services, but they are largely ignored. Have you ever talked with a Turk or other Muslim about how they feel?

"My grandmother probably doesn't really have a strong opinion about it, but she tends to remember her youth quite often. When she talks about it, she just says what happened, without being for or against it."

Ever wonder why she expresses no opinion for or against? Do you know in what units or branches of the armed forces you grandfather's served and where? It is only recently that older Germans were even willing to talk about this. When I first visited in the early 1970's and you could not even mention the terms Hitler and Nazis without things getting very tense. When I was in high school, we could go to Germany for a summer of study. Those thinking about it were told not to mention certain things. From many friends, I know that the generations born in the 1950's and 60's seldom were able to discuss this with their parents. Times have changed as the older generation is passing from the scene and the current adult generation has no direct experience or memory. Things are discussed much more openly now.

My impression, at least in Berlin, is that there is little integration. Turks and Germans live in largely separate worlds. The Turks do have access to many social services, but they are largely ignored. Have you ever talked with a Turk or other Muslim about how they feel?

Ah, well I live in a small town in southern Germany, so I don't have any direct experience of how the situation in larger cities is. That was just the impression I got from what I've heard so far. Where I live, immigrants are mostly from the former Soviet Union, and they seem to be able to handle it relatively well.

Ever wonder why she expresses no opinion for or against?

To be honest, I think she doesn't care much about things which do not directly affect her personally. In the past few years, she's also been starting to get forgetful, which reinforces that.

Do you know in what units or branches of the armed forces you grandfather's served and where?

He was too young to serve.

Things are discussed much more openly now.

I think it's the most discussed topic in German schools.

"I think it's the most discussed topic in German schools."

Not surprising after a long period of limited discussion. To realize just how much times have changed, you can see what happened when Phllipp Jenninger, the former Speaker of the Bundestag in 1988, tried to speak honestly about how many Germans felt in the 1930's. Seems like his honesty violated a sort of unspoken rule and he had to resign. You might find this intersting. I felt bad for the guy, who was trying to be sincere....

http://www.nytimes.com/1988/11/11/world/blunt-bonn-speech-on-the-hitler-years-prompts-a-walkout.html?src=pm

Thanks, that is quite interesting.

I think the world in general should allow for much greater freedom among borders. I think all children should have access to basic health care. That being said why do you believe Israel can afford both in security and cost to do this? Opening their borders seems to lead to suicide bombers and derails any chance of peace. Maybe the UN should take on such task and spread the cost among the wealthiest nations.

Yeah it's definitely a tricky problem and I SORT OF see the Israeli side. I mean, I hung out over there for 99% of my trip, I only went to Bethlehem for Christmas Eve.

I get it that they are afraid of terrorism. I reckon I would be too. However it seems to me that you can't solve that by imprisoning an entire population. It's cruel and I think it has the opposite of the intending effect. I think the Israelis need to show a lot more compassion because they are richer and better educated and have far far more opportunities, and they ought to try to lift the Palestinians up and figure out a way for them to feel like they have dignity and a chance as human beings.

That's the only way towards peace.

It's not just terrorism. Israelis are scarred, Many of them honestly believe that the Palestinians wish to wipe them out/throw them to the sea, and that they should do whatever they can to prevent it, even if it means to violate human rights.

Given that Israel continues to this day to take more and more Palestinian land, I can't say I would really blame any Palestinians who wish to wipe Israel out.

Well, it's nothing new that some of them want to wipe Israel out, many of them wanted to wipe it out since the day it started to exist. I don't think you can justify genocide, even if we consider the circumstances. And it really depends on how you define Israel - there are many inside voices who object the settlement-building, but they are not as powerful as the right win.

"From the river to the sea, Palestine should be free!" -heard at many pro-Palestine rallies...

At the same rate, you've got fascist Israelis who want "Eretz Yisrael Ha'Shlema", which includes Jordan and basically anything they want.

Hey, I'm Israeli and I can fucking confirm: They do want to wipe us out and they do want to throw us to the sea.

It's not just something we "think". It's the plain and simple truth of the conflict. There's a lot of hate going both ways. That wall was erected for a reason, and I for one happy it's there. It lets me - all of us - sleep well at night.

Whilst many live in little better conditions that you state 'Never again' for, caused by you.

Either you're ignorant about the Holocaust or about the situation down here.

Feel free to educate yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005059

That second link, you could substitute 'Jew' for "Palestinian' and have the same discussion that we are having here.

Comparing the west banks to the Jewish ghettos is just incorrect.

"Feel free to educate yourself."

I don't think you have read your own citation. Were I you, I'd be embarassed to make that argument.

Did you bother reading your own links?

It's pretty awesome to see the concerted response from people that have a 100% pro Israeli comment history on any comment that they cant refute, just trying to throw shit at the facts rather than present a counter argument seems to be the tactic of choice.

The Hasbara must be pretty happy with your services.

But no mate, I'm serious. Just read the links you yourself has provided. That's all the "counter-arguement" you need.

"they ought to try to lift the Palestinians up and figure out a way for them to feel like they have dignity and a chance as human beings."

You do realize many Palestinians would say your statement that they need Israel to "lift them up" is condescending.

You are judging this based on one trip there. These people and their governments HATE eachother. This is what happens when a rich country and a poor country end up like this. If you think the USA and Mexico would be any different if they hated eachother and there were masses of attacks going both ways then you are crazy. Neither side is right in this anymore and both make bad decisions.

Hasn't it been this way in that region for thousands of years though? That has to be the most paranoid area in the world. I think Jerusalem has changed hands over 10 times, hasn't it?

No. Arabs and Jews lived harmoniously for hundreds of years. The problem for Jews was in Europe and Russia, where they were persecuted.

the Palestinians have been given land and a shitload of money. Arafat and his cronies stole that money and lived like kings. They didn't give a shit about their own people.

The Palestinians had the land, Israel took it, all of its natural resources, created big prisons from Palestinian cities, because they are too afraid for their own lives. If Israel wanted a real peace it wouldn't take everything that matters and keep taking it, you need to respect the other and give him something if you really wanted to live next to him. but Israel never gave that a chance, since 1948 Israel was trying to take over everything in every possible way.

they returned the Gaza strip and were rewarded with rocket attacks. Palestinians are troublemakers. Even King Abdullah of Jordan doesn't want them, and they are his people.

"given" land?? How nice...

You have got to be kidding.

really? Why? Do a little research if it means that much to you.

He's not. It's completely true. Look at how much money was given to reconstruct Europe after WWII compared to the Palestine. Where does it all go?

They kill 10 arabs for every Israeli jewish person killed. They even call them retaliation killings. They can't really argue that they're the ones that need protection.

The security measures are not harsher than others around the world between warring countries, and still thousands upon thousands of Palestinians come to work in Israel every single day and go back at night, you wouldn't see that even on the mexico-US border.

We tend to root for the underdog, but it doesn't always fit.

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Yeah this guy doesnt even know what he is talking about

I sit next to a guy at work who crosses every day, with a fast pass no less.

Legally?

Thank you for this! I often see all over reddit that Israel is largely wrong. Israel can definitely fix some of their practices, however people really polarize the situation. Unfortunately, israel is now conditioned to protect itself heavily due to the history behind the country. The day israel was official was the first day it went to war. Its not as easy of a situation as people make it seem. There are quite a few terrorist organizations in Palestine that make it hard for Israel to relax their borders. I've spent time in Israel and have family in the army, while I don't agree with somethings Israel does, I feel that if you at least try to see it from their perspective, you would see that their security is normal for a country constantly attacked on a day to day basis. And at least Palestinians CAN work in Israel. Its true that you don't see that at the US and Mexican border.

What's your view on Israel's persistent practice of setting up new settlements into Palestine?

I think the practice definitely needs to cease. Its actually hurting both the Jewish settlers and the Palestinians. On the settlement borders its a whole different war. Similar to that of the wild west... It hurts the Jewish settlers because often times terrorist organizations can easily get to and harm the families there. (Which is completely wrong no matter what Israels policies are. They are still innocent families.) Its also taking away Palestinian land, which isn't right. I'd prefer a melding of the entire Palestinian and Israel land into a unified country, however that's super idealistic. I definitely feel Israel should exist, that I am sure of. Israel conquered a lot of land in the wars they fought (and didn't start) but they gave it back in an effort for peace. However this was definitely an earlier Israel. Israeli policies have changed. They have become way more defensive over the years due to a consistent state of war. Should they give up more land? No. But they shouldn't keep encroaching on Palestinian land. Are they super evil and brainwash the Jews living there? No. I know many many people living there and have been there myself. There is a TON of peaceful, normal, everyday conduct among Palestinians, Jews, Christians, Arab Muslims, etc. Just no one ever points out the good stuff. There is certainly more good than bad I will tell you that. But the fact that Israel is bombed everyday from the Gaza strip is a good reason to create stricter border rules. If this was mexico bombing america everyday and america made strict border rules, there would be little fan fare, because most people would say its justified. I think more people need to take a step back from all sides of the argument and take a look at the history of the area and see that both sides have merit and both sides have things to be ashamed of.

Edit: sorry for it being so long, I just feel like no one really takes an objective look at the situation.

Somewhere I've read a phrase once, that said something along the lines of "terrorists may launch thousands of rockets into Israel and it's nothing wrong in the eyes of worldwide community because Israel has the Iron Dome and only few actually get past the defensive system, but if Israel launches one rocket or makes an attack into arab territory to neutralize such bombers then all the world goes nuts about it, because terrorists use innocent people as human shields".

I honestly believe this. This is something I find minimal people on reddit acknowledge. We like to polarize and say Israel is the bad guy, Palestine in the victim. But that is not true. It it farrrr more complicated than that. And this quote really nails it. Taking the side of the underdog is always a popular stance, however in this situation it may not always be accurate.

Settlers aren't innocent families and they murder Palestinians without ever being jailed.

How "innocent" would palestinians be if they forced the Jewish Israelis to flee Jerusalem or be murdered, destroyed all the Jewish homes in Jerusalem, then offered Palestinian families homes in Jewish Palestine to seize the land from the Jewish Israelis in perpetuity? What parent would put their children in that situation? Not only using the home you raise your children in to seize the land of other people, but putting your childrens lives in danger. Not only that, but settlers are recognized as being even more racist against arabs than the regular jewish population. These are not nice, friendly people. Settler rabbis openly preach racism. Don't work with arabs, don't socialize with arabs, Don't be friends with them or have relationships with them. Don't live in an apartment complex with arabs.

You seem to have a lot of anger... I suggest you take a deep breath... and while some settlers are against Palestinians, (not to the degree you are preaching) it still gives Palestinian terrorists no right to slaughter families, including babies and small children in the middle of the night while they are sleeping. I do not care where you stand on this issue but comic from a human, that is totally wrong.

They're using their children to commit war crimes. And how did they get the land in the first place? How many palestinians were killed to get the land they're stealing? How many peace advocates did the IDF kill paving the way for them to use their families to commit war crimes?

What if it were your land? What if the israelis depopulated your city, or town with their brutal methods and then settlers moved in to carry out the israeli war crimes? Are they guiltless?

Why could they not respect the lives of the palestinians and others killed stealing land for them?

Should palestinians be allowed to murder Jewish israelis, steal their land, and then give it to racist families?

It's hard to reply to you, because you aren't giving facts, or really any basis of argument... You just sound angry, biased, and if you want to refer to jews in israel as "brainwashed" you would be just as "brainwashed" as the other side. You are literally advocating for the death of jewish families, including babies who have nothing to do with this. You are supporting terror and I'm sorry, but I cannot advocate that. Palestinians have killed jews, jews have killed Palestinians. Guess what... They are in a war, shit happens. But when I see extreme Palestinian soldiers hiding behind children and using schools as places to hide weapons, and bomb clear cut israeli cities (not settlements) I think there is definitely something wrong here. Both sides are doing wrong, deal with it. You seem very unwilling to look at the situation objectively, and seem really brainwashed yourself. Please do some real, true, unbiased research, look at some facts, and get back to me. I only hope you don't advocate for murder, because right now that is literally what you are doing.

How many babies and children has the IDF, settlers, and israelis killed in the last 10-70 years? How many babies and children were killed to commit the war crimes that are the settlements?

What is the israeli government doing when their official government policy is to inflict pain on the relatives of hamas members? When Israel is an institutionally racist nation?

Have you seen the IDF murder, bomb, and attack palestinian civilians?

How can you watch the IDF murder thousands of Palestinians, most of them civilians, and then say that the Israelis are blameless, and that the Palestinians are the murderers?

What I am advocating is that Israel shouldn't have built the settlements on the dead bodies, and the blood, and the land of people they want to steal it from in perpetuity. That destroying villages is Israeli violence that Israel knows will only fuel more violence, more death. That Israel can't kill a thousand Palestinians without there being violent repercussions. That a conscious government policy of killing and punishing innocent civilians, and thrusting hundreds of thousands of civilians deliberately into destitution is a terrible policy.

How many hundreds of thousands of israelis did you see forced by the government to live like scorned refugees, living in deplorable conditions?

How many hardships did you see the government thrust on hundreds of Israeli communities?

How would you describe Israel's settlement policy? Where and how did Israel get the land? What happened to the people that lived there? Who is israel moving in to those places, and why?

How many dead babies are the settlements built on? Explain that policy to me.

Tell me how this happy, civil Israel you tell me about thinks about the babies and children the IDF and settlers murder. Do you call them advocates of child murder?

What would you say if a settlement policy was enforced on the peaceful, happy Jews, Christians, and Arabs you describe? What would you say if the IDF demolished their towns, villages and cities? What would you say if the IDF treated their children as mere collateral damage, killing them indiscriminately. What would you say if there was a group like the settlers in Israel today that treated them the way settlers today treat Palestinians, murdering them without repercussions? What would you say of the people who built homes on their graves?

You say I advocate killing settler children, what was the crime of the hundreds of Palestinian children murdered by the IDF and settlers? Who advocated their murder? Who advocates their continual murder?

How many children would you murder to make the next settlement Israel will make? And the next? And the next?

You criticize my policy on children. What is the Israeli government's policy on women, babies, and children? Would you say the democratically elected Israeli government advocates the murder of babies and children?

This isn't a direct parallel, but say a settler family was given the option to press a button, if they press the button, a Palestinian house is destroyed, possibly killing people, and of course, they use their family and their children to commit a war crime, but in exchange, they get a heavily subsidized house along with paid security. Are they totally without blame?

It's really complex, because on one side you have what the Israelis consider illegal settlements - set up by independent individuals and many times demolished by the army (though not always) on the other hand, you have the settlements the government supports, funds and builds. Eventually, most of settlements regardless of how the Israelis view them are illegal according to the international law.

Eventually it really depends on who's in the government. Right now we have a government that is ruled mostly by the right wing. A leftist government would've made life easier for everyone, both Palestinians and Israelis.

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You don't actually know the history of that region do you?

It was under British for nearly a century, during which the Jewish population swelled to equal that of the Arab population.

When Britain moved out both groups were given separate nations.

Nearly as quickly several neighboring nations attempted to destroy Israel, during which Palestinian civilians evacuated their homes.

When the war turned against Egypt and Palestine Israel expanded into the evacuated Palestinian land.

To say that they just moved into land that was occupied by force is hilariously ignorant.

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If you believe Israel deserves the land it occupies, then you must also believe the Native Americans deserve Manhattan back. Or that the Irish deserve Northern Ireland back.

Isn't this the EXACT opposite of what you're arguing?

That, though the palestinians may have had the majority population a centruy ago, they didn't when the time came to create nations, therefore they have no more right to the land than the Indians have to Manhattan.

What's more, the fact that any expansion done by israel was done in a post war movement, palestine really doesn't get much say in the matter now does it.

By your logic, no country could ever be formed unless it had a 100% population equivilant

That's not how it has ever worked, and it's not how it works now.

[deleted]

No, that is the version that Israel tells so they don't feel bad about doing to the Palestinians what Hitler did to the Jews.

Yeah, that doesn't seem like propaganda against Israel at all...

"The day israel was official was the first day it went to war."

...and the day it was attacked by invading armies.

100%, I think many people on reddit disregard this, and say israel was always the aggressor. Sorry if you thought I meant something else!

No need to apologize for anything. You are right on point and I am glad there are a few sane people posting. It great you even want to try to argue with these clowns.

North Korea is an underdog pretty much to everybody, the world don't root for them. People hate N. Korea for all the inhumane practices, it's the same why people hate Israel.

North Korea is a brutal dictatorship with a wannabe god leader that threatens the rest of the world and its neighbors and starves his own people. Israel is a democracy, mostly secular, a start-up nation that helps people after global disasters (like Haiti for example) and has a peace treaty with its biggest neighbors.

Some people do hate Israel, but not because its the same as N. Korea.

"We tend to root for the underdog, but it doesn't always fit."

Thank you!

How can Palestinians stop the IDF who kill ten times as many arabs? They even call them retaliation killings.

[deleted]

You should totally do it. No question. Travel is never bad for you. You'll grow from it.

[deleted]

I can see what it's like there for myself

Yes. Always see for yourself. Otherwise you don't know.

see for yourself, and have the opportunity to convince people if they think differently.

"Join the army, see foreign countries"?

I would recommend that anyone who disagrees fundamentally with either side on this issue should go and see what it is like for the other side. Nothing like actual knowledge to burn through bigotry and hate.

Definitely go, worst thing that happens are your worst conceptions are true. It isn't as though you're taking part in the horror by working there.

Israel is not so much a beacon of democracy as it is a beacon of western-ness in the backwards middle east.

Israel is an example of what is worst in the modern, decadent West. The hypocrisy, the lies, the malice beneath the smiles.

Perhaps Honor killings, FGM and public executions in a not so modern world is better.

It just goes to show the pain of clashing binary extremes

Of course it's a huge and complicated issue, but we tend to fantasize about simpler times when in fact as the world become more "modern" people (as a whole) are living better, longer, and more comfortable lives. It doesn't mean there's nothing to fix, but modernity in itself is not a bad thing.

FGM is an African ritual and honor killings happen everywhere not just he Mideast, but thanks for the racist stereotypes

FGM is common in the Mideast and honor killings too. The fact that it happens elsewhere doesn't make it a good tradition.

BUT... i wasn't referring to the middle east. I was referring to the opposite of "the modern west", although that term isn't well defined those practices rarely happen there.

FGM is not "common" in the Mideast, it is primarily found in Egypt and Somalia, and is an African ritual that even occurs amongst Jewish (Falashas) and Christian tribes there. To the extent that it has been imported into the Mideast or anywhere else, that's where it orginated from and is not legal.

And jilted lovers resorting to violence is hardly unique to the Mideast.

Ok. not "common", but more common than in the modern west. Egypt by the way is one of the biggest countries in the middle east in terms of population. It doesn't matter if its being done by Pagans, Muslims, Jews or Christians, It goes against "modern western" values and it's wrong.

The "mideast" is an arbitrary and meaningless designation. Egypt is actually in North Africa. The nations of the so-called "Mideast" are quite different from each other and no generalization applies to them. Egypt, for example, is entirely different from Iran: different language, culture, history, etc. despite both being designated as "MIddle Eastern"

As far as "modern Western values" lets remember that it wasn't so long ago that it included shoving people into gas chambers and having separate drinking fountains for Blacks and Whites, so lets not get to uppity about how we're "right" and they're "wrong" and a little more humility would be in order.

Well, every generalization isn't accurate, It's a generalization. the Mideast definition is arbitrary as much as North Africa is. where do you draw the line? Mauritania isn't necessarily the same as Egypt, and Egypt in itself is not an homogenized unit. I'm not uppity, but i think you can compare those values. Just as we can say today that separate water fountains are wrong (and many people also did back then) we can say that certain traditions in the world today are.

The point is just because nations are classified together in such vague geopgrahic descriptions, doesn't mean they're anything alike.

Agree

Yeah you know those Buddhists, Atheists, and Christians just won't give up their damn honor killings.

I know! Like the Christian American couple now going to jail for starving/freezing their adopted daughter to death because their particular religious zealotry told them that was how to make her a better child.

Oh wait, you were being sarcastic...

Jilted lovers or men abusing women and resorting to violence is hardly limited to Moslems, so stop with the ignorant bigotry.

I live in a Muslim-dominant country, no such thing as honor killing, FGM or public execution ever happened.

Hold the lies there killer.

Please name your country so the army of neckbeards behind me can post an example in country that happened this year.

Most of the fundamentalism in the Middle East has been created and nurtured by Israel, Saudi Arabia and the United States. They've created, trained, proped up and supported far right groups for decades.

Really? Iranian revolutionary guard was nurtured by the US? Al Qaeda was nurtured by Israel?

I don't follow Saudi Arabia's interests but fundamentalism doesn't need Israel as an excuse.

The US toppled the democratically elected Shah in Iran.

The US created, trained and funded the Mujahadeen during the cold war. Back then Osama Bin Laden was a CIA agent.

It is guaranteed that whatever recent geopolitical engineering the US is involved in in the Middle East, Isreal and Saudi Arabia also had a hand in.

The US didn't prop up the Islamic Republic in Iran and if you believe OBL was a CIA Agent you're lucky you are at a conspiracy post.

The US doesn't directly support fundamentalism but if you claim they meddle in other countries' business and it ultimately snowballs into fundamentalism that's a reasonable argument. But there are countries that don't go in that route, and there are countries that do without any US interference so I'm not so sure as you are.

The CIA created, supported and funded the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan during the Cold War. The US claims that they only funded local Mujahadeen fighters. Seeing as Bin Laden was one of the leaders of the Mujahadeen you would have to be beyond naive to take the US' word on this.

From wiki:

In a 2004 BBC article entitled "Al-Qaeda's origins and links", the BBC wrote:

During the anti-Soviet jihad Bin Laden and his fighters received American and Saudi funding. Some analysts believe Bin Laden himself had security training from the CIA.[1]

Robin Cook, Foreign Secretary in the UK from 1997–2001, believed the CIA had provided arms to the Arab Mujahideen, including Osama bin Laden, writing, "Bin Laden was, though, a product of a monumental miscalculation by western security agencies. Throughout the 80s he was armed by the CIA and funded by the Saudis to wage jihad against the Russian occupation of Afghanistan." His source for this is unclear.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA%E2%80%93al-Qaeda_controversy

Re: Iran. Of course the US didnt prop up the Islamic Republic of Iran. That was formed after the Shah was assassinated by the CIA. The US hates any democracy in the Middle East and has sought to topple Iran's government ever since.

Lastly, the US DOES support fundamentalism. They have supported all the far right movements around the world in an effort to combat the Soviet Union and communism since the end of WWII. They have been caught colluding with Saudi Arabia in creating Madrassas that create the terrorists the US army currently fights in Afghanistan and Iraq. Almost all of the terrorists in these countries are from Saudi Arabia which is one of the US' closest allies.

They stage false flag attacks and blame it on the Sunni or Shia in an effort to create a civil war. They want it to reach a point where the terrorism happens naturally without them having to stage false flag attacks.

America has all these things, but you look the other way because you're told it's Number One.

No, i don't, and America isn't really the pinnacle of modern values. But, it really isn't common to have public executions in America.

Funny, we've been seeing mass shootings every month for a while now. Sometimes twice a month.

Ever heard of Christopher Dorner? He was immolated by the LAPD on live television.

What about Tamerlan Tsarnaev? Pretty sure he was executed by the cops, wasn't he?

actually mass shootings (among other kinds) are in a decline in the US. But i didn't really refer to that.

Anyway, i get your point. I hope you get mine.

And the ritualized circumcision of little baby's done near universally in Israel is somehow less barbaric? Also, before this gets out of hand, any non-therapeutic bodily alteration performed on a child is without a doubt child abuse, all forms of infant/child circumcision are assaults against the agency of an individual who is unable to provide consent.

It's pretty common all around the world. And yes, it's way less barbaric. The reason is different, the outcome is different. But yes, it's not a good thing.

When discussing both forms of mutilation in their most analogous forms the reason is, in fact, not different by virtue of the fact that both are, primarily, for cultural acceptance. Secondly, the barbarism is arguably skewed towards male infant circumcision insofar as more tissue is removed, and lastly the outcome is the same - a child with no say is violated for some idiotic and outdated custom with virtually no prophylactic value in the developed world. Also, those who would argue that FGM is always worse in severity than male infant circumcision are poorly informed given that some countries perform circumcisions with inadequate tools and no anesthetic, moreover, in developed countries there are botched circumcisions that happen - some serious enough to warrant gender/sex reassignment. Lastly, certain cultures perform variations of male circumcision that are quite traumatic, for example some remove the glans entirely and other split the penis down the middle.

tl:dr - all circumcision is pointless abuse unless it serves some legitimate medically warranted purpose.

This is all a cycle. Over the last couple thousands of years county after country has been conquered, ruled and sometimes annihilated by a stronger country. Is that right? I don't really know. We as a society seem to be advancing well and more people than ever before are living full and happy lives. So maybe its part of progress. Decadent west? Don't delude yourself. Over those thousands of years there have always been rich and powerful and people who blame them for all their problems. If you are poor its the decadent rich man's fault. If I dropped you in a Muslim country as a non Muslim you would hate it very quickly. I spent a year in Saudi Arabia and even there it was scary. People love to point out how opressive Israel is to Palestine but then they glance over muslims using human shields/child bombers/beheadings and complete sexist dehumanization. Yes being searched for a couple hours is annoying but would you rather be searched and questioned or kicked in the head and dragged through the street behind a car? There are two sides to every story and neither are perfect or even right. But don't demonize one without looking at the other sides demons as well.

Good redditor, good!

Say you "don't know" then write a paragraph.

So the worst of the "modern, decadent West" is a modernized and European looking nation? Yeah, I'd take that trade.

Even at the expense of your own liberty and economic freedom.

You deserve what you're getting, then.

Easy to say in the comfort of your Western home. If you were living in a complete shithole, as implied by the description of the sudden difference between Israel and surrounding nations, then I could understand.

So my point is invalid because of where I live. How cute.

No matter. The West is over, mathematical fact. No terrorists necessary. Then we'll see who's all smug about their ideology.

Ok bro.

In an effort to point out how bad it is in palestine, he described Israel as pretty perfect. Food, culture, hospitals... that all sounds kind of nice.

Really? Tell me which Western nation has "Jewish Only" Parking Lots?? http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/jerusalem-s-armenians-outraged-as-city-approves-jews-only-parking-lot-in-old-city-1.410694

This is a lot better than mohammed and his homemade explosives.

When most of the world is one way and you are the other way maybe it is you who is backwards.

Yes, but only in Soviet Russia.

What?

When most of the world is backward and you are facing forward, you are one way and they are another south facing way not north like you face backward but forward.

"When most of the world is one way and you are the other way maybe it is you who is backwards."

Are you able to compare what you saw to what goes on "in the rest of the world? How much of the history of the conflict do you really know?

When you look at the sky and see a bunch of planes flying in formation, then all of the sudden one plane starts heading in another direction.

Who is to say that this one plane is flying in the wrong direction?

Maybe this one pilot was the only guy who realized they were off course and adjusted his course accordingly...

So wow. Wise. Such majestic.

I can literally point to any new scientific revelation in history and show you that the stream flows not intelligently, but downhill.

Arabic culture is most of the world? Nope.

Even if you're talking on a regional basis, the Nazis had backwards thinking even though they were the majority

the Nazis, although they had the power for a few years, were a minority. Most Germans were not members of the Nazi party.

Referencing the Arab middle east's 'backwardness' has no relevance to whether Palestinians deserve to live under military occupation, have their land confiscated and be denied many basic human rights.

Thank you! A logical response

Palestinians are like little children. They need a grown-up to supervise as children often do.

"Referencing the Arab middle east's 'backwardness' has no relevance to whether Palestinians deserve to live under military occupation, have their land confiscated and be denied many basic human rights."

Helpful questions you might want to ask yourself: 1. Why didn't Palestinians accept the Clinton parameters as a basis for negotiations and 2. What, exactly, do Palestinians want? The West Bank, Gaza? All of pre-1948 Palestine? Are they willing to accept a Jewish state of Israel in ANY configuration of borders?

I think the 2000 parameters were rejected because they would have committed the Palestinians to terms of reference for a settlement that could very well have resulted in an nonviable state made up of disparate parts, with no access to international borders and consisting of the least desirable land. I think the average Palestinian would be happy with a settlement based on pre-1967 borders with a withdrawal of settlements and occupying military forces and some kind of international partnership agreement regarding Jerusalem. And yes, I do believe that that Palestinians would accept the existence of Israel on its borders, although, in my own opinion, the idea that it is a Jewish state reeks of ethnic chauvinism.

"I think the 2000 parameters were rejected because they would have committed the Palestinians to terms of reference for a settlement that could very well have resulted in an nonviable state made up of disparate parts, with no access to international borders..."

Actually, the Clinton parameters were about insuring just the opposite. Can you show me a single map on which any borders that fell within the Clinton parameters prevented access to international borders or resulted it he west bank not being contiguous?

"....the idea that it is a Jewish state reeks of ethnic chauvinism." Well then you must feel that way about most of the world's nations. On a practical level, I hope you realize that there will be no settlement, regardless of borders, without explicit Palestinian recognition of Israel as a Jewish state. Both sides are going to have to swallow some bitter pills.

Its not Palestinian land. There's no such thing as Palestinian land. Palestine was never a country, the Arabs that make up was is Palestine today left Israel, they were not forced to leave. They left when Israel was formed, the Arabs living within Israel have them same rights as all other Israeli citizens

Then why is there a giant wall?

Because it's reduced suicide bombings and related tragedies by insane amounts

Why are they blowing themselves up? Aren't their rights and privileges in Israeli law just as valuable as a Jewish citizens rights? All Israeli's are equal and have equal protections and access right? Why not educate and integrate? After all, no one had their home bulldozed or taken from them forcibly. It was all nice, right?

Hello: I don’t think I’m going to change your mind, but I recommend some additional reading. Acknowledging difficult historical and contemporary facts about both Israeli and Palestinian actions is important if you want to have a constructive conversation about the Israeli-Palestinian topic. To go through your points one by one: * The Palestinian expulsion. Israeli and Zionist historian Benny Morris supports Israeli actions in 1948 and acknowledges that there was a concentrated ethnic cleansing and forced expulsion of Palestinians. See his book The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem.
* Palestine was not a country: You are correct that Palestine was never a country as we understand a nation state today. The area contained by contemporary Israel and Palestine was administered by two different Ottoman districts, then became a British Protectorate until the foundation of Israel. Neither were any of the countries in the Habsburg Empire until after WWI. For that matter, neither was Israel a country, despite the best efforts of many, until 1948. The point is, whether or not a country is granted widely recognized ‘nation status’ does not mean that those who have lived on the land for generations can be dispossessed of their property. * Arabs living within Israel have them same rights as all other Israeli citizens: From a legal perspective, you are largely correct. However, there is extensive discrimination against Arabs (and even Jews of Arab descent) in Israel related to land ownership, access to jobs, etc. The de jure status of Israeli Arabs should be distinguished from their de facto status. Hope this helps lead you to take a more nuanced position on the topic!

Yes because it is western-ness that insures that father can't get his son the help he needs. The fact is that if many countries would embrace some technological advances, and accept some commonly agreed on human rights, there would be a lot less suffering in the world. Don't blame it on any nation, is the fault of us all.

It is not my responsibility to teach mohammed that marrying his sister is bad genetics in the long-term.

the backwards middle east

The Middle East wasn't so backwards before the World Bank sent the jackals in.

Beirut, Lebanon
Syria
Baghdad, 2001
Iran, 1979

Being a Palestinian born in America, I can tell plenty of stories that will open up people's eyes to the situation. I currently have dual citizenship, and because so, I can't visit Jerusalem without a visa. Hell, I can't even fly into tel aviv, I'm forced to fly into Jordan, and then spend another day crossing the border into Palestine, which is no fun task in itself.

The biggest issue I have with crossing the border happened approximately 5 years ago. My brother, oldest sister, and father don't have their Palestinian citizenship, so when we went to cross the border, they had to go through a line for US Citizens on the Israeli side. They decided to hold my family members with only US citizenship for "questioning." Now my oldest sister has Down's syndrome, and they held her as well. They started asking her questions like where do you work, why are you here, where do you go to school, why are you not flying into tel aviv? As you can imagine, this confused her and made her uncomfortable. My older brother noticed this and proceeded to start yelling at this, which caused them to release my sister and my father, and hold my brother for another 2 hours for a total of 4-5 hours of holding him.

More people need to realize how badly people are treated by the Israelis.

On that note, I've met plenty of nice Israelis, but it's the bad apples that gives a bad name for most of them!

You have to drive some distance out of Jerusalem to get to the wall.

I stopped paying attention to anything you wrote after I got to this part. The wall is walking distance from the Old City at the heart of Jerusalem.

Yup; literally took me five minutes walking.

It's interesting that so many people are deeply moved by this story but it seems that none of them are moved to ask "is it true?" Even when it is pointed out that hundreds of thousands of Palestinians are treated in Israeli hospitals each year.

The original question was "when did you become a conspiracy theorist?" The answer is apparently, "the day I started listening to emotion and stories rather than reason and facts."

"The wall is walking distance from the Old City at the heart of Jerusalem."

Exactly. You don't have to go far and you can see the wall from many vantage points on the Israeli side. I will be generous and put it, and the other things I pointed out, down to an honest lack of knowledge on #161... 's part. :-)

Apparently the 219,464 Palestinian patients receiving medical treatment in Israeli hospitals during 2012 – 21,270 of them children- dont count, or you have conveniently overlooked all of them. On top of all that, the Israeli's are training Palestinian specialists and interns to return to their land and treat their own people. Of course, you might not believe that, but you might change your mind coming from the official Palestinan Daily: http://www.palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&amp;doc_id=9049 and http://www.algemeiner.com/2013/08/02/increase-in-palestinians-treated-in-israeli-hospitals/

Well that makes all the war crimes ok then.

Your source isn't the "official Palestinian Daily," it's a propaganda operation well-known for its selective and oft-inaccurate translation of Palestinian news media.

Nice spot. It's just another one I've added to my list. NOW Lebanon is also a propaganda outfit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOW_News

Some of the contributors are close with the US/Israeli think tanks in Washington and some of the worst people from the Bush Administration.

Why are there few good hospitals in the Palestinian territories? Those kinds of things require funding and a healthy economy. Is it reasonable to believe that Israel's treatment of Palestine keeps it at an economic disadvantage? Im assuming no doctors would even go near an area where people are treated as the poster above described. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I agree, as well as the fact that most of the health facilities that were and are being established get attacked by settlers and usually burnt down.

I lived in Israel for two years and not once did I see a soldier bring a grenade launcher on to a bus. That doesn't even make sense, why would a soldier be carrying something like that around?

Same amount of time living in Israel. Many grenade launchers seen. You've never seen those large cylinder looking things attached to the bottom of some soldiers' M16s? I think 1 of every 20 GIs are assigned them or something like that. I have a friend who was assigned to be the grenade launcher guy as well.

I have been raising the alarm to my friends and family about this for years now. I am the 'unspoken anti-semite' in my social system. Good on ya.

Israelis are committing genocide against Palestinians. They are extremely racist and violent against the Sudanese.

It's like they didn't learn from their own history.

The Sudanese come to Israel so they can work and send money home. They come through Egypt where they are shot and abused, all for the chance to get there.

Please learn the definition of genocide before accusing a country of it.

You might want to do the same, bud.

The deliberate killing of a large group of people, esp. those of a particular ethnic group or nation

That's exactly what Israel is doing to Palestinians.

To be fair... it's sudan.

How is that fair?

I may be going to Israel in December. Do you have any tips/advice?

Don't be Arabic.

[deleted]

The fuck are you talking about? The color orange has no significance in Israel or Palestine anymore. The only time it did was a decade ago when it was being used by right-wing Zionists as a symbol of their opposition to Israel's withdrawal of settler colonies from the Gaza Strip.

It's like wearing blue on a red corner of Compton, or vice versa.

Bad analogy. This doesn't matter any more. Source: Live in Long Beach, in Compton weekly.

[deleted]

It gets the point across because that's what people know. I was just sayin'.

Also, it does matter for people deep in those gangs, but not as crazy as the 80s/90s.

Actually orange was used to sympathize with the settlers when they were evacuated from gaza. and don't be dumb nothing will happen to you if you'll wear anything. everyone in this thread is way exaggerating racism in Israel..

[deleted]

care to give an example?

[deleted]

look, I'm Israeli, and I think that outside of what's happening in the west bank, there is not a lot of racism towards arabs in Israel. It exists, but not in the manner and prevelance that is described in this thread. There are no checkpoints in Tel Aviv that I know of, so I don't know how police officers could have harrased palestinians there. I don't know if your story about children throwing rocks at arabs in ashdod is true, I've never seen such thing happen, and there are not many arabs in ashdod, but if it's true then it's bad and it's definitely not something usual.

I think that security measures in the west bank are justified and are a result of the constant hostility of the palestinians towards israel, and not the other way around. of course we need to minimize the inconvinience that is caused to the average palestinian by them, but it's a fact that since the wall has been built, the amount of terrorist attacks inside Israel has been reduced siginificantly. I wait eagerly for the day when such measures are not necessary and both sides can live freely side by side, but until then Israel has to keep the safety of its citizens.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&amp;v=dPxv4Aff3IA

This is so fucking true. I see more racism in my hometown (Atlanta) toward blacks than I did in Israel towards people of Arabic descent. The majority of the Israelis I met and spoke with were liberal minded people who wanted the Palestinians to be able to have access to the things they needed. The issue is so much more complicated than people want to accept. There wasn't always a wall. Back then you could get blown up by a suicide bomber at the mall or ripped from your house and tortured or raped in front of our children by terrorists. I know several families who lost loved ones. One girl lost her infant cousin in a suicide bombing, and her aunt nearly didn't make it.

The Israeli government targets terrorists, and yea, there is collateral damage: such is the nature of urban warfare. I will tell you though that my Jewish American friend with dual citizenship joined the military there, and has been in several situations where he was assaulted and had to "aim below the waist". There is a general policy that, unless you are going to be killed, you do not shoot to kill. Even when the twenty point cement block slammed into his back after being dropped from a building onto him, or after the Molotov missed him by feet.

Idk. Lost my train of thought, just kinda rambling now. I just think its ridiculous to simplify the issue as "Israel bad, Palestine good".

I take it you didn't spend any time in Palestine, nor did you get to know many Palestinians. If you spent as much time in Hebron or at the checkpoints as you did in Atlanta, it's unlikely you'd be saying the same thing about racism in Israel. At least most Israelis are willing to admit that they have a reason to be racist, unlike apologist American Zionists who will find any reason to ignore and excuse it.

And "yea, there is collateral damage: such is the nature of urban warfare" is a weak justification for the murder of civilians. It's highly doubtful that Deir Yassin, Kafr Qasim, Khan Younis, the carpet-bombing campaigns in South Beirut, or the targeted white phosphorous bombings of the UN school, police stations, and utility infrastructure in Gaza can all be chalked up to "collateral damage." As an American, you should know better than to quote the same propaganda line that justified the deaths of 100,000+ civilians in Iraq. Simply because some soldiers are ordered not to start a Third Intifada by shooting random civilians without good reason, does not mean that every civilian death that Israel caused can be excused as a harmless mistake.

[deleted]

I live in Israel, you?

[deleted]

how nice

[deleted]

[deleted]

I hope you are sarcastic, if not- then no, it is not.

[deleted]

Yes, you are. Palestinians are not being carted off in to gas chambers.

[deleted]

White phosphorous and gas chambers are two very different things. Do not misuse the term genocide, there is nothing systematic about Israel's indiscriminate slaughters of the Palestinians.

One in four Israeli citizens are Arab.

Great point. I guess Arabs aren't discriminated against at all then.

[deleted]

These people vote, pay taxes, and run their own communities. They are not broadly treated like shit at all.

These people also:
*aren't typically allowed access to basic municipal services, which are usually reserved exclusively for Jews
*make up 2% of the Knesset despite comprising over 20% of Israel's population
*are intentionally excluded from the domestic political process and have never once been part of a coalition government
*have been the stated target of "loyalty" campaigns that seek to imprison and deport those who don't swear fealty to a Jewish state
*are targeted by most of the right wing as a fifth column that should be ethnically cleansed from Israel and "transferred" to Jordan
*aren't allowed to rent apartments owned by Jewish landlords
*face institutionalized discrimination in employment and hiring
*encounter racial discrimination at the thousands of security checkpoints located all throughout the country, as you might have seen from the many stories in this thread.

Take your head out of the sand, being Palestinian inside Israel is nowhere near as rosy as you're making it out to be.

Are you even reading these citations? Most of them do not support your highlighted statements.

You can nitpick or ignore all you like, but it doesn't take a lot of digging to find a wealth of information documenting any of these realities. If you have a problem with the source behind each one you're free to cross-check it with dozens of others. Or just dump the work on me and tell me what, specifically, isn't backed by these sources.

Some of these don't even apply to Arab Israeli citizens, but to Palestinians in the West Bank. Others, cite Rabbi's who want something to happen, but that's a far cry from it actually being Israeli policy or law. If you can't make these basic distinctions in your sources and think you can just dump tons of sources on people to overwhelm them to prove a point, without even reading them yourself, then I'm not going to bother with you.

And which ones don't apply? Every single one of these applies to Palestinian citizens of Israel. Only one of the sources cites rabbis - the "Jordan is Palestine" ethnic cleansing euphemism.

To elaborate, the "transfer" ethnic cleansing plan, while espoused mainly by hate-preaching rabbis with sizable right-wing contingencies, has also been regularly and seriously discussed by several prominent members of the Knesset and high-ranking cabinet ministers, which in the present government includes ex-Foreign Minister and Yisrael Beiteinu leader Avigdor Lieberman, deputy Defense Minister Danny Danon, and the entire Molodet party (which has adopted it as a platform and joined several coalition governments via the National Union party).

The "transfer" plan's present ideological leader, Aryeh Eldad, authored and secured 53 votes in the Knesset for a bill that declared in no unclear terms that the entire population of the West Bank should be ethnically cleansed from Palestine and moved to Jordan. While it was not a part of the bill, he hasn't ever minced words about the fact that he would like to see it applied to Palestinian citizens of Israel as well.

My dearest apologies that you find facts overwhelming. I've read the sources, I encourage you to do the same.

The Truth Hurts

Where are you staying? What do you plan on doing? I was in Jerusalem this past summer and it was quite an experience. If you are staying in Jerusalem, I recommend walking from West Jerusalem to East Jerusalem and seeing the stark contrast. Maybe from Jaffa gate to Damascus gate. I suggest going into the Old City too. You can walk along the wall for a bit and get as close to a bird's eye view as you can. It's very confusing once you're in there. Bring a map in your own language. If the religious things interest you, you should visit at least some of them. They're historically interesting if nothing else. You won't be able to get into the Dome of the Rock unless you're Muslim. I was lucky to be able to get in because my grandfather is Muslim and has a powerful name.

You will love it. They are incredibly nice people, and the history takes your breath away. Just like you would not go to the slums of Detroit, don't go to the slums of the Middle East. Stay in the tourist areas andget tour guides.

"I may be going to Israel in December. Do you have any tips/advice?"

Do some serious reading so you can understand what you see. Don't rush to the conclusion that because you have seen or head one side of the story, you understand and can make judgements the whole thing. If you can talk to both Israelis and Palestinians, be sure to ask both what they would accept in terms of a compromise.

My grandad regularly had to work there. He has travelled extensively across the world and he said it is by far the worst place he has ever had to work. He was once hassled by two soldiers and threatened to be shot dead for.....fishing! Next to the boat he captained.

I went to Israel on birthright this summer. The closest we got to Gaza was some town that was 5 miles from the border. We could see Gaza from the bus. We couldn't see a wall. But the land was black. Israel is surprisingly green. It looks like West Texas. So the comparison is stark. I don't remember what the town was called. It started with an N. Everything was concrete. Apparently all the playgrounds are underground. Apparently they're rained with bombs on a regular basis. All the bus stops are bomb proof and there are shelters at regular intervals. This is on the Israeli side, btw.

I understand what the rationale is. They're afraid of insider attacks. The problem is the right wing government treating all Palestinians as potential terrorists. The other problem is that all these settlements are government sponsored. It's pretty much like manifest destiny and the homesteaders. The government will give hundreds of thousands of shekels to people willing to start homesteads in these areas.

My sister lives in Israel now. She says she has a few Palestinian classmates. I also saw lots of Arab Israelis. There are left wing Israelis, more than you'd think, who believe what Netanyahu is doing is wrong. My sister doesn't seem to care either way. She's not politically literate outside of weed laws. So asking her opinion is not happening.

The care and support of Palestinians who aren't as privileged and can't get ID cards falls onto charity and nonprofit organizations like Save a Child's Heart and Hatzallah. I find it a little odd that a random taxi driver would tell a random foreigner his life story. It's not that I don't believe you, but he sounds suspect. Hatzallah covers East Jerusalem.

I agree that the government isn't doing enough to support Palestinians and integrating them. The fact that they don't have Israeli citizenship is unacceptable. But I also find it hypocritical with the fact that America and Canada are doing something very similar with reservations. Britain also is guilty of doing the same thing with the Irish. There's also the fact that other Arab countries don't really care about Palestinians and just use them as an excuse to hate Jews.

My heartfelt prayer is the belief that the previous generation who were brainwashed by the Israeli lobby is dying off and a much more informed generation is taking their place. Israel will reap a whirlwind I'm afraid.

You'd better hope not, since they're a nuclear power now and not about to stand by and watch themselves go through yet another genocide.

I take it he's referring to the Samson Option, wherein if Israel goes down, it plans on taking the entire world with it. That includes Paris, Rome, London, and any other innocent party unfortunate enough to be within range of their nukes.

No, not really what I meant. They would happily nuke the ever living fuck out of the rest of the Middle East if they were invaded (presumably by those Middle Eastern countries), but they have no reason to attack Paris, Rome, or London. The problem is there are other nuclear powers in the region, and shit could go very badly very quickly.

Just read the article. You don't intend that, but you're not an Israeli policymaker. Moshe Dayan did. The last resort plan is to take the entire world hostage, threatening to plunge it in to nuclear winter if stronger countries do not step up to help Israel.

That's possible, but what we can all be absolutely sure of is that they won't hesitate to use their arsenal against any countries threatening their existence.

You can't defeat an invading army with Nuclear weapons. Their only chance for survival is to learn how to get along with their neighbors, not terrorize them into submission.

You really need to look into the history of Israel. They already have defeated many invading armies (without nuclear weapons), and that was before they had their now very modern military and defensive fortifications (to say nothing of the nuclear arsenal they wouldn't hesitate for a moment to use if they felt their military was outmatched in a future invasion). Saying they have no chance of survival is disregarding 60 years of history.

And to be clear, the previous invasions they successfully defended against were all intending to wipe Israel off the map and exterminate every Jewish inhabitant--if you want to talk about getting along with neighbors.

Israel is surrounded by battle hardened countries who in no way resemble the armies of the last generation. In the meantime Israel youth have grown up pampered and undisciplined. Convinced of their military prowess by fighting against a starved and minimally armed Palestine, they have been lulled them into a false sense of superiority. Their only chance at long term survival is to turn away from aggression and actually build relations with their neighbors based on mutual respect.

There are no militaries around Isreal that can match them. Syria is a civil war wasteland. Lebannon is a joke. Egypt is having massive issues of their own, and Jordan is not going to think about being involved. Jordan does well being the only moderate country in the area.

Israel has developed its military far more than its neighbors have since their last engagement.

Israeli youth are all required to serve in the military--they are the least pampered and undisciplined developed country I can think of.

Again, you're just not saying anything that agrees with reality. And to top it all off, they have a nuclear arsenal and wouldn't hesitate to use it if sufficiently threatened.

It's okay Jake. We get your point. It's not a very good one.

I'm not trying to make a point. I'm just noting that /u/Justmetalking doesn't seem to know much about the history or current events around Israel.

You forget the Israel is in a peace treaty with its two biggest neighbors for quite some time. Israel has indeed shown that it can build relations on mutual respect.

You can demoralize an invading army by nuking their home country.

She had a grenade launcher in the seat next to her.

This is where you blew it.

Going to be devils advocate but what is the right way to protect yourself from an enemy who uses suicide bombers of all ages, and who launches missiles at you across the border. It's essentially a constant of war.

That poor poor highly developed and technically superior military! Having to face crude home made fireworks that don't do anything and children with rocks! Truly they are the victim!

That's less than helpful. We all know even the most advanced military has trouble with guerrilla tactics used against it. Vietnam. Iraq. Afghanistan come to mind

That was just the usual American ham fistedness when it comes to war. Vietnam and Afghanistan and Iraq all had armed militias and resistance fighters who knew how to utilise urban areas and took a leaf out of the American Revolutionary War playbook with guerilla style attacks and IEDs.

Israel has children throwing rocks and shitty home made rockets that don't do anything, it's nowhere near the same level of power imbalance.

I agree with most of what you said. I went there this summer and stayed in East Jerusalem (The Palestinian side). It's completely dirty. Trash everywhere. People on the streets begging and trying to sell you touristy things. Then you go to West Jerusalem (the Jewish side) and it's like you're walking through a European town. It's a wonderful city with great food and great stores and what seem to be great people. We with my grandfather who is Palestinian but was fortunate enough to leave the country in '48 or so. We tracked down the house that he used to live in and the man living there currently was very nice and let us in and showed us what the house looks like now. There were still a few olive trees that my grandfather remembered. The man was very nice and he even said something like, "You shouldn't be thanking me." The problem as I see it lies with a very vocal minority who don't want things to change. I didn't have an experience like yours when going to the West Bank, but I went across the border with a man who did tours for families in Israel which may have made it easier. We were questioned frequently by soldiers and asked to show our passports. They saw we were American, but the Arab name for my mother and Grandfather brought them to waiting rooms to be questioned. It was a great trip, but also exhausting and frustrating. I don't think Palestine is able to live off itself as an independent state from Israel. The one state solution has to work. I think it can, but there needs to be intervention. Apartheid really shouldn't be legal anywhere for anyone.

"I don't think Palestine is able to live off itself as an independent state from Israel. The one state solution has to work. I think it can, but there needs to be intervention. Apartheid really shouldn't be legal anywhere for anyone."

It is very easy to understand why you would like a "one state" solution. It would mean total victory for you. No need to compromise or even tolerate. Nothing can hide a simple fact--it would mean a Jewish minority under the control of a Palestinian majority. No "intervention" will make it work. Let's focus on what kind of compromise can work.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. It sounds like we are in disagreement but you finish it up with agreeing with what I said. Maybe you misunderstood me or I mis-spoke. Could you re-word what you said?

"Could you re-word what you said?"

A single state will not work, though I can well understand it appeal to Palestinians, as I think you can. It would be more productive for all invovled to focus on a two-state compromise that could work.

i have an Palastinian uncle and even though he's lived in the United States for decades, he still has lots of family in Palestine. needless to say i've listened to and read many stories of similar encounters with Palestine as you have. there's something about your story though... i don't know what... but it really affected me. reading that last paragraph i actually got emotional. thank you for sharing your story.

As a Palestinian that had family get out before the wall, I feel it is the duty of our people to help the other countries realize that we need to take a look at the cruelty of the Palestinian people. I have been to the wall and was screamed at by many Army personnel that wanted to see my ID or passport... I have a dangerous amount of pride for my people and their origins and sincerely believe that we deserve a sort of say in a country that recently only belonged to the Palestinian people.

not even 80 years ago it used to be called Palestine and once WWII was over taken over by the Jewish people left over from Germany using weapons procured from England in order to give them their own land. although it would have been nice to split Palestine among the Jewish and Palestinian people (christian, muslim, and Jewish!!). we would have waged a mini war instead.

I don't want to get to off topic, but I stand for the palestinians as they did own the land before and were literally told to "fuck off". I am not saying the Israel we know today would be doing as good as Palestine if they didn't "Invade", i am saying that Israel is not a country that should be supported.

All of the neighboring countries hate it for reasons similar to the Palestinian conflict. I don't like Israel for this reason and none of my Israeli friends like Israel as much now that they know the truth.

fun fact about teachers, my History teacher talked about Palestine for Literally 5 minutes. Not even mentioning why they, All of a sudden, were wiped off the map. I think teachers would be the first step into finding out if Israel is a country that should be supported by the US military.

That's the cruelest form of Catch-22 I've ever heard of.

Indeeed. It's as close as you can get to a catch-22 in real life.

This was well written and I would like to respond without being downvoted to oblivion. (Hope springs eternal) When Israel was established in 1948 they were immediately attacked on three sides by their neighbors. All of the worst terrorist groups hate them with a passion. Iran wants to exterminate every Israeli. If you lived in Ohio, and Indiana, Kentucky, and Pennsylvania kept attacking you with mortars, rockets, and suicide bombers, then you would build a wall too. If at any time a Kentuckian could (and does) walk up to your checkpoint and blow you and your buddies up, you might treat them a little differently. If you were surrounded by countries that hate you and dedicate their whole beings to seeing you eradicated, maybe you would have a different point of view. it's easy to say "oh that's awful", but let’s see both sides before we talk about how bad the situation is. I was in the military and went to Israel 3 times. They were incredible nice to me personally and all of my buddies as well. Elsewhere in the Middle East, the people treat you like crap.

TLDR: It's easy to say oh the poor people, but look at both sides of the issue before judging.

and why were they attacked?

The war begins

“In December 1947, the British announced that they would withdraw from Palestine by May 15, 1948. Palestinians in Jerusalem and Jaffa called a general strike against the partition. Fighting broke out in Jerusalem’s streets almost immediately...Violent incidents mushroomed into all-out war...During that fateful April of 1948, eight out of thirteen major Zionist military attacks on Palestinians occurred in the territory granted to the Arab state.” “Our Roots Are Still Alive” by the People Press Palestine Book Project.

Zionists’ disrespect of partition boundaries

“Before the end of the mandate and, therefore before any possible intervention by Arab states, the Jews, taking advantage of their superior military preparation and organization, had occupied...most of the Arab cities in Palestine before May 15, 1948. Tiberias was occupied on April 19, 1948, Haifa on April 22, Jaffa on April 28, the Arab quarters in the New City of Jerusalem on April 30, Beisan on May 8, Safad on May 10 and Acre on May 14, 1948...In contrast, the Palestine Arabs did not seize any of the territories reserved for the Jewish state under the partition resolution.” British author, Henry Cattan, “Palestine, The Arabs and Israel.”

Culpability for escalation of the fighting

“Menahem Begin, the Leader of the Irgun, tells how ‘in Jerusalem, as elsewhere, we were the first to pass from the defensive to the offensive...Arabs began to flee in terror...Hagana was carrying out successful attacks on other fronts, while all the Jewish forces proceeded to advance through Haifa like a knife through butter’...The Israelis now allege that the Palestine war began with the entry of the Arab armies into Palestine after 15 May 1948. But that was the second phase of the war; they overlook the massacres, expulsions and dispossessions which took place prior to that date and which necessitated Arab states’ intervention.” Sami Hadawi, “Bitter Harvest.”

The Deir Yassin Massacre of Palestinians by Jewish soldiers

“For the entire day of April 9, 1948, Irgun and LEHI soldiers carried out the slaughter in a cold and premeditated fashion...The attackers ‘lined men, women and children up against the walls and shot them,’...The ruthlessness of the attack on Deir Yassin shocked Jewish and world opinion alike, drove fear and panic into the Arab population, and led to the flight of unarmed civilians from their homes all over the country.” Israeli author, Simha Flapan, “The Birth of Israel.”

Was Deir Yassin the only act of its kind?

“By 1948, the Jew was not only able to ‘defend himself’ but to commit massive atrocities as well. Indeed, according to the former director of the Israeli army archives, ‘in almost every village occupied by us during the War of Independence, acts were committed which are defined as war crimes, such as murders, massacres, and rapes’...Uri Milstein, the authoritative Israeli military historian of the 1948 war, goes one step further, maintaining that ‘every skirmish ended in a massacre of Arabs.’” Norman Finkelstein, “Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict.”

http://ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html

I'm glad you shared this in a mature manner! I would like to point out that the wall being discussed is built for Palestinians, not for the other countries, though the wall did stop attacks from the Palestinians there. Also, I am under the impression that the group most oppressive with the Palestinians are the ultra-orthodox jews, who until July of this year were not required to serve in the military. I am glad to hear, though, that they were kind to you.

I do want to ask, though, who else in the Middle East did you encounter?

I have been to Egypt, Bahrain, United Arab Emerates, and Dubai. None of these visits were pleasant.

In Israel, I went to Haifa, Jeruselem, and Bethleham. Bethleham was the only dissapointing one, but it is mostly Arabic.

As someone who doesn't follow politics, can someone explain what the lie was?

it really depends on what you mean by the lie. there's a lot of lies.

if you'd like to know more, google the South African Apartheid and apply that to modern day Israeli/Palestinian relations.

this is like saying black is black and white is white. There are millions of colors out there and simplifying the situation to "bad" and "good" without knowing the deep and complex history of the region is foolish to say the least.

It's not like this is surprising. Both are in unique situations. Israel had had enough because the countries surrounding Israel are aggressive. So they developed the mentality of stay string or die. Lebanon does the same thing to Jews. Iran once stated that Israel should be wiped off the map. If both sides cooperated, maybe peace is possible. The non Jewish world has been screwing over the Jewish world for centuries. Of they loosened up their borders don't you think someone might take advantage and plant a bomb, after all Hamas and Hezbollah are right next to Israel.

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Yayyyy NAZIS!

Amazing first-hand account, thanks for sharing.

As a Palestinian I really appreciate this post! Thank you!

Well the "Christians" you are referring to must be American ones who take the mainstream U.S. information about Israel as the truth. If you were talking about Orthodox Christians then they live on the dirt road side of the wall.

But you know what the folks on both sides can't choose where they are born. Both sides are pumped full of propaganda and the politicians won't allow peace to happen. Its a very sad situation created by politicians.

You should also be aware that Israel is losing its young people en-masse, they are leaving because the costs of living are too great.

if you dont have the time skip to 1:09:50

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuZE9Nwpd0o&amp;noredirect=1

its a documentary on the check post which have been set up in the territories, the part that gets me is when the solider says that all ramallah is a jungle, and he is human and the people animals

I went to Israel on a study abroad trip that focused on counter-terrorism from the Israeli perspective. The entire 3 weeks my groups was there we were ferried around by the IDF and their private security contractors who never allowed us out of their sight. Being an American and being bombarded by propaganda about how wonderful a state Israel was I was of course excited to be in this nation with our closest allies. With the exception of our tour guide and bus driver I have never felt as un-welcomed and despised simply for being an American. I was refused service multiple times in restaurants and was constantly ripped off at shops. When we were with the IDF they stressed over and over how dangerous the Palestinians were and how the West Bank along with the entire state of Israel has belonged to the Jewish people for over 4,000 years since the time of the Exodus from Egypt. At the security center at Bethlehem we were shown security footage of riots on the Palestinian side as they threw rocks at the security fence. In response the Israelis deployed tear gas and armored vehicles equipped with water canons that quickly and brutally dispersed the crowd. At the same time IDF ground forces were firing rubber bullets into the crowd. One Palestinian man who was on a 3 story building was struck with a rubber bullet and fell to his death. While watching all of these videos from the command center the IDF troopers were heartily laughing at the events. I was shocked and saddened that so many of our tax dollars were being spent to perpetrate human rights violation on a scale unheard of in decades. Especially in a country that claims to be a valiant democracy in the midst of a crisis with its neighbors. My only advice to the Israelis would be to remember the golden rule.

This was almost precisely my experience when visiting Israel but throw in being called a "dirty fucking Arab" in Hebrew and being spit on. I saw much of what you did but coud never write it down as eloquently and as chillingly as you just did. I was lucky enough to be staying with a rabbi who was an ardent anti-Zionist though and he showed me everything and even took me to an anti-Zionism rally. Some of the Israelis hate what their government has done and indeed realize the irony of their country behaving worse than the Nazis did at the start of WWII.

Your story moved me to the core. Thank you for sharing the truth with us. May peace be with you friend.

I'm Palestinian American. 21 years old. I go back to Palestine every summer to see family and protest. I can confirm.

My goodness. It's sad that humans can be so downright evil to each other. It's made even more concerning because my government - the one I pay taxes to and give fealty to - are the financial backing of the oppression minded government there.

Makes me want to lose my cookies.

The US was in 2 wars (and countless military operations) int the last decade which resulted in hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths outnumbering all Palestinian casualties ever many times over. That doesn't make you want to lose your cookies?

Everyday, my friend. Everyday.

I had the same exact experience as you. I am American. I was born and raised in America. My parents are Chaldean (small Christian minority from Northern Iraq). The fact that my parents were Iraqi made travel between Jerusalem and the West Bank very difficult. Traveling across the wall was like night and day. I had a really weird feeling deep down in my gut. That weird feeling didn't leave until I flew out of the Tel Aviv airport to get on with the rest of my trip.

At first I read that as "So I wrote a novel" and got excited. I would totally be down to read more stories like this!

I wish more people could convey their experiences like you write. That was readable, brief, and gave me a well illustrated understanding of your point of view and how you came to it. A+

Who should we support? all the other countries are by far worse. They treat the Palestinians the same way Israelis do and women are second class citizens and being gay is punishable by death. Israel is not perfect but far better than the other countries in the region

As the granddaughter of a Palestinian who came to America after he and his family were forced from their home.... Thank you, thank you, thank you for sharing this.

That is insane. Just reading about that chills me to the bone.

Thanks for writing that, very interesting. I am glad you shared it.

As a Christian this really does embarrasses me. I honestly had no idea it was that bad over there. I think it's that the Israel people have grown up fighting the Palestinians and have been taught to hate them and treat them as second class citizens.

It's actually the other way around.

as a human you should be disgusted!

Thank you for sharing what you saw. I'm sick of Americans seeing Israel as such a... well, beacon of democracy, as you said. It's sick, what's going on over there. I usually get told that I'm just biased because I'm Lebanese, and everyone knows what a bloody relationship there is between Lebanon and Israel. More people need to know what's really happening.

Israel is a beacon. We should support their expansion over the entire middle east.

They bring culture, pizza, and stability to the camel jockeys that desperately need it.

Israelites are mainly Jewish. Not Christian.

So uh... let me get this straight. This is not what you are taught about the Israeli/Palestine conflict in the US? Because every European that's mildly interested in world events pretty much knows this is how it is. I'm actually quite baffled at this.

Yout story changed a lot of us (at least for a moment). Thanks for taking the time to write a novel.

Israel is a snowball of irony.

Oh my history teacher actually did this. She toured all of Africa and Europe including Israel. She went to Jerusalem. The problem is that she didn't care. A lot of people don't care. They are content where they live and how they live and don't care. About anyone else other than themselves.

Wow. That's nuts. Thank you for sharing

Why the fuck are people down voting you? This is real. These are our allies and we let them do whatever the fuck they want including attacking and killing Americans!

Thanks for your story

I think a lot more people should read this. really good stuff. thanks for sharing

There's a video on YouTube that shows exactly what it is like for the Palestinian people every time they get to a check point. I'm on my phone so if anyone knows what I'm talking about please post it.

I have been to Israel as well, I was still young and politically naive, one day while walking with my shirt off i was pulled and frisked by the secret police for "looking Arab". I was really tanned back then. Realized racism is very real over there.

Thanks for this. People should know.

Israel? A Beacon of Democracy? I don't think anyone has ever claimed that.

As I read this, I kept thinking about a movie called 5 Broken Cameras that documents what you've stated almost exactly.

Got any pictures you could share?

Did they react strangely when you took photos?

I'm sorry, I'm not too educated on politics. When you say that colonialism isn't just something that used to happen, are you saying that Jerusalem or Israel acts as a colony of the U.S.? That's what it sounds like, but I'm unsure. Sorry for being ignorant on the issue and Thanks for helping me understand.

No, what's being said is that Israel acts like a colonial power (imagine what Canada, the U.S and Australia did to their native people) and colonized an area of the world that does not belong to them, hurting the indigenous people while doing so. What is happening to the Palestinians is essentially a silent genocide orchestrated by right-wing assholes in Israel who draw cartoon bombs to convey messages. Also what is happening is absolutely and undeniably comparable to the apartheid committed against blacks in South Africa. Hell, the ghettoization of the Palestinians is actually pretty fucking similar to what the Nazi's did to Jews during WW2.

Israel itself is the colonial power. It has been actively exporting colonists from Israel in to Palestinian territory which it conquered in 1967. This territory is and was under Israeli military jurisdiction, with nominal municipal control given to a quisling Palestinian administration in the West Bank's case.

You are a really great writer. I know you jest when you say you wrote a novel but I would seriously read other things written by you. Not only is the subject of your post interesting and important, but you really brought it to life and I'm sure others beside myself really felt moved by it. Thank you.

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Sorry, slightly ignorant person here, but isn't Israel dominantly Jewish and not Christan?

Better and more emotionally pertinent and resounding than any novel i've read In a long time.

Christians should be embarrassed because Jesus wouldn't have stood for any of this.

I might be in the wrong here but aren't as far as I know, Jews aren't Christian, they are Jewish.

I think he means American Christians who are super pro-Israel.

/r/bestofTLDR/

Thank you for taking the time to write this. I wish you could have also saw (and wrote about) how Israel demolishes Palestinian homes.

When all these things are put together, it is clear how "terrorists" are born, and how the west is to blame.

Wow, what a tale! I hope more people read this

r

Man that was powerful, thank you so much for sharing.

Thanks for sharing your story. As an American, with no direct connection to the Middle East, I have long been frustrated by the fact that we only get one side of the story. I was lucky enough to befriend a Palestinian co-worker years ago and through the stories of her life experiences I began to get a better understand of the whole picture.

There is fault on both sides of the Middle East equation, but if Americans had a better understanding of what it is to live life under occupation then and only then we will we be able to understand what is the genesis of Islamic terrorism.

Is your username an IBM #?

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How fucking pisspoor stupid can you be to read a few paragraphs of a single perspective and change so completely on something.

This is something that I can't read in a newspaper or online article. Thanks for typing this out for us.

The wall with the barb wire and glass may be foreshadowing a past long forgotten by the Jews. If it's one thing I know, It's that history reoccurs itself.

I was brought up to believe that Israel is my homeland and it would be a good thing for me to make aliyah (make the commitment to live in Israel) but I do believe Israel is not what it seems, both in the positive and negative sense. The problem is the media bias; On both sides. No one takes an objective look at the subject. Thank you Op for sharing this!

I'm really glad you got to have this experience. I never really looked closer into the conflict until I joined Reddit and started hearing the experiences and looking at the numbers. When you start to dig deeper, you realize that yes, this is a completely asshole move by the United States to continue. It is, however, a strategic necessity both financially and militarily... for now. That a compromise is not even a consideration shows exactly how much moral action means to the U.S.

When I met my current girlfriend a few months ago, she was astonished that I was aware of this stuff (her dad is Palestinian). Needless to say, she let me closer a lot sooner than she normally would (a lot of arab girls are pretty conservative)

She's told me some very frustrating stuff that is similar to what you talked about. She was a graduate student and had to lie about why she was coming there because they don't want people exposing what's going on or trying to make improvements that might destabilize what they have. All she was trying to do was design improved infrastructure for the Palestinian people.

Funny enough, the only serious relationship I've had is with a Jewish girl. And no, I didn't get any insights into the grand Jewish conspiracy, just a petite girl who loved to fuck.

As a christian I despise the fact that so many Christians support Israel. Especially when it's racist as hell and hates Christians! Such idiots.

I had a similar experience back in 2005. I had family living in a really nice part of Jerusalem. But they worked as engineers for an American company with the Palestinian Authority to help get better resources to people outside of the wall. We went to Bethlehem and other cities outside the wall and they just looked like war zones. They're treated like criminals just for existing in the place their families have been for centuries.

The check points aren't so bad if you're white, but still pretty scary. Everyone has to serve in the army so it's a bunch of pissed off 18year olds with AR15s who are sceptic of everything you say. We weren't supposed to tell people who my family members worked for. We almost got held at the airport because my dad has a German name that is also a name in Arabic. This was just days before shit hit the fan in Gaza.

Can you please tell me, with all respect, who were you listening to to think it would be any different? Was it a media source? Was it taught in school? Where do you live? I've never understood how someone would think Israel represents anything but what you've described above.

I have one question about your story. You describe the Qalandia checkpoint process as you enter Palestine. I have never had trouble entering Qalandia from Jerusalem. However, I have your same story when I travel from Qalandia to Jerusalem. Did you mix up the order or am I just lucky?

That's incredibly interesting. Two different worlds right next to each other. Two groups of people who can't get along. One group has plenty of resources and the other has none. We as Americans continue to fund this kind of existence exacerbating a problem that can be fixed through mere coexistence and friendship.

You have been submitted to /r/bestofTLDR

Good shit.

For longest time, I wouldn't belive it...and then I saw the

fields with my own eyes. Watch them liquefy the dead, so

they could be fed intravenously to the living. And standing

there, facing the pure horrifying precision, I came to

realize the obviousness of the truth. What is The Matrix?

Control. The Matrix is a computer generated dream world,

built to keep us under control in order to change a human

being into this.

Thank you for the information and your insights. Sometimes we need these kinds of anecdotes to put things into perspective. I came to this thread from another thread about Hamaz textbooks for their kids.

Thank you for sharing. Only one thing I'd change. Anyone who wants to support the Israeli government, and the current state of Israel should be forced to go through what you did. To see with their own eyes, and not read about some bullshit in a news paper, or see it on TV.

I hope youre not already drowning in replies, but... what exactly do/did they teach you about isreal/palestina in your school?

thank you very much for writing this up

Fuck man... just... goddamn. I don't even have words.

Do you mind explaining this a bit? I understand the evil of it but just need bits cleared up. What has America done here? is it Palatstine that's poor and around it is rich? I'm sorry for this very simple question.

I'll do the best I can to explain this.

Israel is essentially the baby America in the Middle East. It was set up after WWII to be a country of the Jews to help atone for the Holocaust. That sounds all hunky-dorie until you realize that the area they carved Israel out of was all part of Palestine. There were people who had been living there for generations upon generations and suddenly they were just being told to move out. This created a pretty strong animosity between the Israel and the rest of the Middle East and so America decided that it was a great idea to supply them with the most modern, top-of-the-line military technology of the time, and a whole lot of it.

Now Israel didn't just use these weapons as defense, they militarized and immediately began to flex their power. They took the Suez Canal from Egypt almost immediately and only gave it back after America told them that they had to. They also began to carve out pieces of Palestine and claiming them as Israel, forcing even more people to become displaced as the land they lived on for generations was taken from them.

TL;DR: The creation of Israel displaced buttloads of people. America giving shit-tons of weapons and continued aid to Israel gave them the ability to go out and force more people off their land to claim more developments for Israel. Fighting a war against Israel as well as dealing with buttloads of displaced people has driven Palestine to poverty while America continues to bolster the Coffers and Armouries of Israel.

If I messed anything up here feel free to correct me.

Thanks! That clears it up!

If I messed anything up here feel free to correct me.

Gladly!

First off there has never been a state called Palestine. The land that the West Bank, Israel, and Gaza sit on has been held and ruled by countless countries, empires, and each of the three major religions. The term Palestine comes from the Ancesteral Greek Philistines that emigrated inhabited the land. On this land the first monotheistic religion in history grew with its original inhaditanrts (those of which were returning from slavary in Egypt), Judaism, and came to be ruled by successive Jewish kingdoms. The Roman Empire eventually cam through and conquored the land and built up the religious city of Jerusalem (and built the Temple mount) to placate the conquored Jewish population as a goodwill gesture. Once the city of Jerusalem was established as a/the major center for religion after the advent and spread of Christianity (due to the holy sites created in Jerusalem because Jerusalem was a major city in the region therefore a great place for Rome to show its power, therefor being the perfect place to publicly crucify Jesus), and Islam deciding, due to many overlapping and very similar teachings as both Christianity and Judaism, that Jerusalem was important to them too, the area became a hotbed of fighting and one country/ruler/empire after another taking over. During these different "regimes", for lack of a better word, the Jewish population was expelled, allowed back, expelled and over and over, each time haveing fewer and fwer come back due to them creating new lives for themselves in other countries (being the reason that there were so few Jews in the area during modern recorded history).

Fast forward to the 20th century, and the region has changed hands a million times, most "recently" (being the last few rulers) being the Byzantine Empire, that became the Ottoman Empire, and then transfered to become part of the British Empire after WW1. During the rule of the Ottoman Empire, the area had become muslim due to the Ottomans being muslim.

As we all know, WW2 and the Holocaust happened, murdering 6 million of the decendents of the historically displaced Jews from the middle east. This was the largest and most catestrophic of the many pogroms the European Jewish population have endured over the centuries. At this point nationalism (the gathering of similar backgrounds and ethnicities to create a state) was maturing all across Europe in every form (taken to en extreme by the Nazis), not excluding the Jews. So after the Holocaust the Zionist Jewish Nationalist movement wanted to take action and return to their ancesteral homeland of Israel, then know as the Mandate of Palestine (for adoption of the Palistinian label by the muslim arab inhabitants), which was still under British rule and was chopped into a smaller easier to manage entity with arbitrary lines (like Iraq and Syria, and Lebanon became under French and British rule).

With the resulting creation of the UN after WW2, it was generally agreed that the Jewish people needed and deserved a state. Due to the influx of fleeing Jews from Europe and thier agreed upin acesteral connection to the land, Israel was voted upon and agreed with a large majority to be givin space in the Mandate of Palestine alongside the arab inhabitants. The only ones that diagreed were the arabs (but you would think with all the issues they bring to the UN against Israel, making it seem like they find the UN a legitimate entity, they would take majority decisions as international law). So the arbitrary arab countries around the agreed upon land said that they would push the Jews into the sea and told the arab inhabitants of the area to flee/get out of the way to make the job easier. Now, I am not saying that the Israeli military was exempt from maing bad decisions, some that should be looked at as criminal, but to be completely honest, war is never humane or is totally run by level headed people and deplorable things are always comitted by both sides, so saying that bad things happened during the 1948 war is just a given. War displaces people, just like the 1948 war for Israel's independance saw the centuries old Jewish populations of arab countries be deported, most, if not many, of them ending up in Israel. It went both ways.

After independance, Israel has always had to defend itself from arab invasions, once time taking preemptive action to prevent another near catastrophe like the Yom Kippur war, so that was not a flexing of muscle, it was a war that ended with Israel creating buffer regions between them and thier enemies and holding land for future negotiations (which worked in one case at least!)

Now I do not agree with all of the settlement building in the West Bank, but put yourself in the shoes of Israel. If you saw that the disengagement of your country from an occupied territory (Gaza) resulted in the terrorism and daily threat of attack, you would be hestiant to leave the other larger territory unless there was an ironclad agreement that guaranteed your security too. Also, since many of the terrorist attacks came from these territories over long unprotected borders, you would put up a barrier to stop them from happening (which it pretty much did) too.

Again, the means to which the Israeli government tries to protect theur citizens may not be orthodox or seem friendly, and I am against many of the means they use, but in the grand scheme of things it is just the government trying to protect its people in a country built on land that was inhabited by said people's ancestors thousands of years ago. This is just another chapter in the brutal history of the region.

Finally, the violence is also attributed to the Palestinian and other Arab leadership incitiing and doing nothing to ease tensions on their side. I guarantee you that Israelis want peace more than the Palestinians do.

tl;dr Theres a lot of history of the region that no one cares to know or take into account when creating an opinion on the conflict. Its been going on for centries...this is nothig new!

Note: I apologize for all spelling errors!

Woah...How did I end up in /r/conspiracy?

I may have came off as though I didn't blame Palestine or any of the conflict and that I was demonizing Israel. That's not how I meant to come off. I understand that there is a very very long history all over the Middle East (probably longer than anywhere else in the world) and that is simply going to lead to a lot of conflict. Realistically though the Western World had no place cutting out portions of the Middle East and drawing borders where they saw fit just as they did in Africa. A very large portion of the problems in these areas come from neglectful border-drawing by Western Colonialists.

That was one of the most eloquent comments that I have ever read explaining the Palestinian situation which is hard to grasp or put into real words. I just want to say if I had enough money I would buy you a gold coin. Add a character, a small bit of plot and a bit more description and you have a beautiful short story. Thanks for the feels.

Thanks for this first-hand view of the situation over there. I've never trusted what we're told about who the good guys and bad guys are in most news. There are elements of both in every country. It all feels a bit too reminiscent of Nazi Germany for me. A country can protect its borders without imposing such horrible restrictions on countries around them, no matter the threat.

A Belgian guy made a documentary about the colonies. He went to both sides and did interviews on both sides, showing their view on the conflict. He put the trailer on youtube, two days later it got removed 'because its content violated YouTube's Terms of Service.'

http://www.tgifdoc.com/

Here is the site of the documentary with the trailer.

I feel you, I just got back from a 6 month internship at a nonprofit trying to bring Israeli jews and Palestinians together for dialog. It was a smack of reality everytime i went over the border.

Note: I now have friends on both sides of this conflict and it is extremely complicated.

Is it okay with you if I submit this to /r/bestof? This is easily the best and most personal account I've read in awhile of the differences between Israel and Palestine.

Israel is Jewish not christian, they dont believe in Jesus. You're right Jesus wouldnt have anything to do with this, it's very old testament style. EDIT: Although to be fair i understand the security measures, but the way they do the card system is screwed up

The rest of my day was senseless bullshit...up until reading this. Thank you for posting this, I know that speaking on this topic can cause some blow back. I appreciate the personal experiences that you've shared with us because it helps to bring attention to what is happening instead of what is theorized (not to say that any theories are true or untrue).

someone best of please

Wow. Just... wow. I never knew it was that bad.

Religion is so wonderful

Wow. Powerful story.

We Belong to the Land by Elias Chacour really goes along with what you are saying.

And we wonder why the rest of the world hates the US when we fanatically defend those who commit such atrocities. I'm not saying the US is squeaky clean either, but the first step we must take to fix this damn country is break ties with others who deny human rights, then we can get to work on the domestic issues.

So there are successful countries and poor countries. Just like the USA and Mexico. You are shocked by the inequality. Welcome to the world.

Colonialism is the establishment, exploitation, maintenance, acquisition and expansion of colonies in one territory by people from another territory. It is a set of unequal relationships between the colonial power and the colony and between the colonists and the indigenous population.^wiki

The bare-bones Truth

That is nothing compared to what they do in Palestinian settlements. They imprison children, torture them, beat them. They destroy Palestinian crops. They kick people out of their homes and replace them with a Jewish family. What is going on is probably worse than any apartheid in recent history.

Thank you. I have saved this comment.

Amazing

my..god

I wish I could share this with the universe.

Same thing happened to me. I spent a month in Israel traveling around the whole Palestinian region. Incredibly depressing.

damn. That was powerful. Much respect.

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Your an idiot. Palistinians can't even get basic building materials and food.

Green Palestinian Hospital

Al Ahli Hospital provides care to 600,000 Palestinians living in the Hebron district. With 365 regular beds and a capacity for 500 patients in emergency situations

Not once have I bought into the Israeli victim mentality. It's completely obvious to everyone with a brain who isn't corrupted by religion or patriotism that this situation is far from being as equal as the media would have you believe.

Perhaps if the Palestinians didnt attach bombs to their chests and blow up busses full of children the situation would be different.

[deleted]

True, but there are always diplomatic answers. Had the Palestinians in 1948 been willing to compromise at all, they would have had over 80% of what now is considered Israel. But instead they (and Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon, and Syria) chose to attack and start a war. Its not a simple as people make it out. Again, I hear what you are a saying but they chose to put themselves in this situation by refusing to agree to any compromise.

[deleted]

These are wise words.

What were you expecting from a nation basically at near war with everyone around them? Interesting story though, Israel is hardly a beacon of democracy.

While the situation is grim, I have to ask: Would it be humane to stop supporting Israel? While it's horrid that the Israelites treat Arabs in such a way, does that justify not backing them and letting their neighbors overrun them and perhaps do the same thing to them?

I could be wrong, and maybe Israel's neighbors wouldn't do that, though my knowledge of the situation insists it would.

I'm just at a loss. What do we DO?

I think we should do nothing less than stop giving them bombs and money and instead put some demands into the aid. I mean that for both Israel and every nation bordering it. Also refuse trade to all of them unless they encode laws to stop the practice of apartheid and enact laws to treat all religions equal. Only a powerful, united, and secular front would end it for sure.

Israel treats all religions equally, more so than the US at least.

Around 20% of Israelis are in fact arabs, they sit in parliament and are usually in better shapes than arabs in Arab countries.

wow bro this just gave me chills. honestly thanks for sharing....

Unfortunately for your cab driver, the leaders of his land use their construction materials on terror tunnels in stead of hospitals and indoctrinate their students with hate in stead of educating them. Probably easier to blame his situation on his neighboring countries' leaders though.

May I ask you why you thought everything was good in Israël ? Is it what they teach you where you live ? I believe this point of view is mainly American because where I live, and in Europe in general, everyone talk about "colonies" and "occupied territory".

kinda reminds me of some of the shit the nazis did....

No. It really doesn't.

Actually it does. Some crazy fuckers decide to use the holocaust as an excuse to steal themselves their own country in palestine and start commiting war crimes of their own. ...And now they are oppressing and ostrasizing the palestinian "untermensch" using many techniques that are eerily similar to those which the nazis employed against them during WW2.

Wow.. That's insane. first of all, there were jews living there before WWII, and of course those that survived came to join them. In 48 it was the Arab states who attacked and lost their land. until 67 the Palestinians were oppressed by Jordan, funny no one cares about that. Since they have their own government, their armed forces, they even sit at the UN. To compare any of that to the nazis is simply illogical.

That is simply not true. But if you're a Zionist it makes complete sense that you think that, cause you've been told to.

It seems as though no one "told" you about what the nazis actually did in WWII

You seem completely incapable of seeing the similarities to some of the things they did. I wonder why? :>

i dont understand...the governments and people of palestine have been given literally billions of dollars in aid just over the past 20 or so years.

why is the area and its people so impoverished and destitute?

Because the people that are supposed to distribute the money and help the community keep it for themselves.

Aid doesn't fix poverty. Development does.

On mobile so my quoting ability is lacking, but sharing a bus seat with a grenade launcher sounds...risky.

and that Christians should be embarrassed because Jesus wouldn't have stood for any of this.

The craziest thing is that Palestine has a sizable Christian population. When Christians support Israel, they support the persecution and subjugation of fellow Christians at the hands of people of Jewish faith. I'm not religious at all, but the fact that most Americans are Christian, and Americans overwhelmingly support Israel, is a complete mindfuck to me. They'd rather let their fellow religious adherents get treated quite badly in the hopes that it will bring about the apocalypse so Jesus can come back.

Edit: and as silly as this may sound, Anthony Bourdain did a recent episode of Parts Unknown where he went to Israel and Palestine. He ended up spending more time in Palestine than Israel, and the whole episode revealed a very similar story to the one you shared here. It's seriously like a ghetto in Palestine, especially compared to the luxurious Israeli areas just on the other side of the wall. Also, apparently food in the West Bank has some of the most unique flavor combinations of any culture.

Can you explain that last paragraph to me? Israel was founded by and maintained a socialist government and the Knesset has one of the most diverse representations of any governmental body. And at this point isn't Israel pretty much its own autonomous nation that just happens to have US support? And don't you think security is necessary considering the relative volatility of the Middle East combined with the history of guerilla attacks being launched from the West Bank, Gaza and Syria?

Edit: Remove some stuff that was misunderstood on my part.

They are extremely paranoid about their land because the Jews have been systematically exorcised from location after location, a people without a country, for so long. Heck, they didn't even have a country to call their own until after the firggin Holocaust. They've had a rough life. They just can't seem to catch a break. Now they finally have a place to call home and the Muslims are crying foul because the land that was theirs to begin with and was taken away has supposedly fallen under the "finders keepers" law and needs to be returned to "the rightful owners". So Israel is in constant battle with a nation that is a perfect example of why vigilant democracy is far better than a de facto theocracy and they pay for their fanaticism with poverty and squalor.

Modern day Israel is the way it is because of the fanaticism and mistaken manifest destiny of their neighboring states and they in turn are subject to the product of their delusion. Jesus said: "Be as gentle as doves but wise as serpents."

So no, Jesus would definitely say to keep your home safe in light of letting a fanatic blow it up.

Otherwise, great read!

OP meant the American Christians who are blindly pro-Israel

My point is that they are the good guys because the vast majority of retaliatory or "reprehensible actions" they do out of necessity. To call them the bad guys is to call a black man the bad guy for shooting racists who kidnap his family and kill his son and who becomes skeptical of every white person he meets because he lives in the pre civil rights era. There may be good people, but, because of the location he is in, he is rightfully paranoid.

I KNEW IT, the jews were never up to any good, first 9/11 and now definitive proof that the zionists israelites are nothing but scum.

Sorry if I'm being daft, but what's the conspiracy here?

Sorry, but I don't believe the story about the arm. What kind of genetic defect would cause someone to lose a limb without surgery? It doesn't exist.

The conspiracy of how someone gets awarded gold 7 times in 4 hours just turned me into a conspiracy theorist!

That's what happens when you terrorize civilians. Your people are ostracized.

" We are scum because you segregate us."

No, we segregate you because you are scum.

The Jews freakin killed jesus, man!

I appreciate the thoughts, and I'm not trying to poo-poo your experience, because I'm sure it happened exactly as you describe. However, there are obviously two sides of a coin. I'm positive that we could get an Israeli to describe in detail how a grenade launched over a wall onto their kid sister or smuggled through the wall killed their mom. There is obviously a reason that the wall exists. The two sides don't treat each other like Canada and the US or even the US and Mexico (which is very similar in that one side is dirt poor and the other side rich).

I guess I'm just saying that anecdotes are powerful, but they don't tell the whole story.

You can trade sob story for sob story on both sides, but that doesn't get you anywhere. The fact of the matter is, both sides are right about certain things and both are wrong about certain things. This is a unique situation because in the past, refugees haven't stayed, they have left. However most of the surrounding Arab countries refused to absorb a significant amount, if any of the palistinians. Moving past that, the way israel has and is treating the palistinians leaves much to be desired. Since the wall has been put up, suicide bombings have almost stopped. They used to allow ambulances through without being searched, but some people filled one with bombs. Do I think that everyone should be punished for the actions of a few? No, but what else can you do?

There is no need to condescend certain religions.

Where did you see him(her?) being condescending? I read nothing of the sort...

Oy vey, the goyim have discovered our secret. SHUT. IT. DOWN.

 One thing that's always cropped up in my mind is how often people disregard things. There are three sides to every story: their side, your side and the truth. People's opinions start based on personal experience. We can only generalize-innocently or not-from our point of view. It's naturally biased. We only learn other POVs by living through new experiences or by others. For this, I thank you for posting, and because of it I will post the following tagged under your comment so people following it can also read it:

I have a fair amount of empathy AND sympathy for Palestinians-especially those who are near my age. However, I think it's unfair that nobody ever points out the other side of the coin in that regard without ridiculous amounts of back-peddling, exaggerated or inexperienced opinions, or just outright paranoia (on both sides, and those on the outside). This is absolutely a heated subject; it always has been. However, what about the Israeli children that have grown up-albeit on the other side of that fence-from the Palestinian children? Much like the OP, I too have an experience in Israel...from being born and living there. I have read through many comments in this thread about the living conditions on both sides, and I have a serious bone to pick with the 'generalizations' that were made from people who were simply visiting. (I have yet to stumble across a poster who has lived in Israel, or was a native, to comment about such a thing. If I have missed one, my apologies.)

I was born in an incredibly small town. I was born to an American mother and a Jewish father-who's parents were from North Africa. We have an Arabic based last name, but with European and Jewish ancestry. I am a dual citizen. I lived in Israel for a decade and go back every few years. Did you know that the streets are not paved in gold? In fact, when people ask me what it was like, I frankly tell them it could be a beautiful place if the streets didn't have so much garbage and if gutters didn't smell like piss and rot.  Did you know our first home-in which I was born and lived in my first year-was a bomb shelter? Did you know that I lived through a war before I was potty trained, or that I knew what a missile siren meant before I knew how to recite the alphabet? Did you know that our bathtub-in our second home, which was an 'upgrade' to our first-was outside in the yard, or that my mom ran my bath water with the hose? How about the fact that in that upgraded 'home' we had three people to a room in a one room house. That is, the house was literally four walls with a window, a door and a leaky roof. 

Our third house was owned by my grandparents. It had three rooms and an indoor bathtub. We had seven people living in it. Family.  The same family that worked their asses off-doing physical labor for nearly two decades-to save enough to start a family business in Israel. My dad had several employees that helped him in the business; he did his best to hire good men-family men-regardless if they were Palestinian, Jewish, Christian or other. They were judged based on their actions; we even spoke Arabic, Hebrew, French and English within the business-and the home-in order to be able to better communicate with workers who were eventually like one of the family. He even carpooled them back and forth to work. The respect flowed both ways. 

When I was five years old, a man my father had  hired attempted to behead  him. He was part of Hamas and luckily his plans didn't come into fruition. Why would a man we had treated like family want to kill my dad-and the rest of his family? Why me? My mom, my grandma? It was because we were Jewish business owners. Killing us was to be a message that we didn't belong there, in that land. 

I was a child, as the Palestinian children are. A lot of us-and I'm speaking in the age of mid twenties here-have grown up in a war zone because of a war we didn't ask for, let alone start. As I stated before, the streets on the Israeli side aren't paved in gold. It's not uncommon to see dilapidated housing: crumbling concrete, rotting wood planks, old stone in mortar walls and bullet scarred neighborhoods under thin metal roofs and behind rusted fences.  A couple posters in this thread said that Israel was like walking through Europe. Europeans, I ask you: is everything-everywhere-as great as it seems? Ireland: is it all green and perfect like the postcards? France: is it all romantic like the movies? Romania, Hungary? Anybody? No?

How about Americans? I've lived in America now for almost twenty years. I know for a fact that a slum can border the gates of a nice community. Does that mean that everything is good, or does it simply mean that a nice community was walled itself off from the shit pit? How about those of you in south Florida? I have lived in some downright holes in the ground with nasty flying roaches as neighbors in my walls. How can people be so blind to each other? It is SO incredibly easy to sit back and point the finger at a people in whole instead of holding the people at fault responsible. How about a whole country? Let me tell you: what most of the world thinks of Americans is not how a majority of us actually are. When I visited a friend in the UK this past year (right after the Newtown shooting) I felt like a side at the freak-show. The questions were so incredibly naive, but so irresistibly accusatory and broad; it felt like a blanket smothering me. I wasn't like that. I like owning my firearm. I'm responsible. How can you say that I'm like that individual when I've never lifted a finger against another, let alone the barrel of my gun. Stupid, paranoid, gun-clutching, trigger-happy American that I am.

How can you say all Palestinians are terrorists? How can you say all Israeli's are oppressive? If you can say that, honestly, you need to look yourself in the mirror and ask yourself some hard questions. Saying all Israeli's, especially ones that were born there, are colonialists in training is like saying all immigrants born on American soil are going to take over and block us into a cage. It's okay to defend, but defend justly. A crooked defense is still crooked; sooner or later it'll throw you entirely off balance. Look where being out of balance leads people? Look at where it leads entire governments! As both a dual citizen I can honestly say that neither is more right than wrong. The road to hell was paved with good intentions; history shows us that is true for all nations, all races and all tongues. No human is except from mistakes, from rash judgment, from suffering. As much as we like to say that humans are the superior animal on this planet, we are-in fact-scared animals. Cornered, we lob explosives at each other. We sell, murder, covet, starve, beat and abuse each other. We fight over land that didn't originally belong to us. Nobody alive today-no culture-can accurately claim that any one territory belongs to them-and always has since time immemorial. 

We-as humans-behave in a hideous manner. We have the balls to start wars and not the common sense to understand that you can't have a 'war' with 'rules'.  War creates death, what's the point of making rules to spare lives? To RESPECT life? That's laughable. Sounds like we want to bake our cake and eat it too-while also not getting fat or having any of the supplies. In relation to my point: if you're going to be involved in this debate-which will probably rage on for many years with no progress at this rate-then please remember that open, respectful dialogue is how one acquires new points of view. Remember that there are three sides to every story, just as there are many people who belong to a nation who don't agree with everything their government does (ahem, every country in the world).

I am well aware that Israel has committed crimes against humanity, just as I am aware our neighbors to the south have as well. I have been the victim of hate crimes because of my race and nationality, witnessed offenses from both sides. I can't honestly believe that all Palestinians hate Israeli's. I have had to stand in long lines because of my last name, I get questioned, I get gruff treatment, disrespectful comments,  my bags tossed through every time I travel. I get grilled as to why I have two passports when I have dual citizenship. Going through security always feels like a really infuriating, cliché movie. Here in the states, I get shit for having a 'translated' copy of my birth certificate. I've been verbally challenged in workplaces/school/college for being from the middle east. I've been accused of being a terrorist. A student in high school caused a mild bomb scare when he found out I was from Israel. He was convinced I was strapped to the gills with explosives.  I sat alone my freshman year because of the same paranoia that erected that wall. That rotten few-on both sides-is the ultimate kill joy. Neither side will win so long as they are in emotional bondage to each other. I wish our generation would stand up and say enough. We have a lot on our plate that is being passed down to us and-at some point-it will be our generation that is left in charge of the mess. 

As for a conspiracy that Israel is this great place... what posh. Maybe the bigger cities got all the funding while shit is falling apart elsewhere. A lot of the 'better half' of Israel is to please the tourists. Tourism is big, therefore gets cleanliness, attractions, renovations and amenities. You see that everywhere with a booming tourism industry though. What you don't see-much like every other country-is the ugly side...or the whole truth.

Sorry about typos, jumbled thoughts, and the format this keeps posting in. =/

TL;DR Three sides to every story: your side, their side and the truth.

Wow. Wow wow. You had me at every word. Normally when I look at a wall of text, I say "meh" but by the second sentence I was hooked. The way you tell a tale its amazing. Sorta of like an invisible narrator who paints a vivid picture.

I wanted to let you know, if you ever want to keep writing, we are always looking for writers for /r/SubredditOfTheDay.

To be fair, if it wasn't for this type of security Israel wouldn't be as safe as it is today.

Sadly it's just the brutal reality of things...

Sorry, but your driver was full of shit.

I used to be a medic for the Israeli government and served people living in Jerusalem, the West Bank, and the Southwest including Gaza. We served EVERYONE, regardless of age, religion, or citizenship. There are some very shitty towns in the West Bank and Gaza but most people there blame the terrible Palestinian government that does nothing constructive with all the aid they get. When Israel evacuated from Gaza they left nice buildings, neighborhoods, and hospitals, all of which have since been destroyed or used for the militias by the Palestinian leadership.

Back to the story at hand here, I find it hard to believe. Not that 161719 was necessarily lying but foreigners are pretty easy to spot and westerners are a sympathetic target. He was likely looking for this poster to give a good tip and/or spread his story. Working in an ambulance we transferred many Palestinians without a border permit to Israeli hospitals. Yes there was a process but it was not impossible. Even after the Gaza disengagement we would go into the aid holding area on the Gaza border and collect residents of Gaza who needed to go to the hospital in Ashkelon or Tel Aviv and drive them and a family member the rest of the way because the disengagement terms meant they couldn't drive themselves past the border.

Very well-written story. The cadence, the tone, the voice, the modes. Really good. I hope I stumble across your work in the field again, with the proper name. You definitely earn it if you're paying the mouth with the word.

This is anazing.

Wow. Just wow. You need to post this someplace else. Pitch it to Rolling Stone, Vice Magazine, or just put together a little film on YouTube. This needs to get out there.

im guessing u werent allowed to take pix.. if u did, could u share some w/ us? particularly while crossing the wall. Thx for the story

Great story. I'm not gonna lie though, I skipped to the bottom first to make sure the loch ness monster wasn't waiting for me.

I need about tree-fiddy.

I always check behind the shower curtain to make sure of the same thing

Thank you for sharing.

[deleted]

Yeah. I live near it. It's nothing like was described in the above post.

You mean where the volleyball matches are at?

No, what's it like?

[deleted]

I think the argument is that Israel is not being persecuted, it is doing the persecuting. Who do you think is persecuting Israel?

Israel is heading towards doing to the Palestinians what the Nazis did to them.

I got a A- minus for my history-paper which had to be about the Palestina/Israel conflict. I wrote from Palestinian perspective and got laughed and yelled at by my fellow students... and then the grades came back. Israel is the pot calling the kettle black.... period

Excellent way to shed light on a controversial topic by pointing out your opinions earned you a A- in that freshman history class.

Way to go champ!

We could only hope. Few less camel jockeys and everyone wins.

Please give a real tldr, that was just an extension of what you were writing.

Guess what? It's a military country. Guess why they have adopted so many policies about searches and security? Don't you sort of see at all why they do these things? If you lived in America and Canada was constantly attacking with rockets and bombs that target your children, would you not want your country to protect you?

The PURPOSE of government is to protect the people. I think Israel does a damn fine job given their circumstances. Don't even try to argue about who the land belongs to, it's changed hands dozens of times. Now it's Israel's and they aren't going to be letting Arabs be treated equally until the surrounding Arab nations are on par with Israel as far as being humane.

"If palestine were to lay down their weapons tomorrow, there would be no war. If Israel were to lay down it's weapons tomorrow, there would be no Israel"

The world hates Jews and it's despicable. A country a fraction of the size of it's surrounding nations is constantly ridiculed. Not ONCE has Israel been on the UN Security Council, yet Russia, China, Egypt, have all had a turn.

Palestine is crumbling because of their religious hatred and that's it. If they played nice with Israel they would be safe within Israel and treated equally. When every surrounding country hates you it's not hard to envision a police state. Don't expect it to change anytime soon

Stop playing the victim, Israel is the aggressor.

You make some good points but I somewhat disagree with a bit. Israel does have some fantastic security. My brother and another man in our group both had skin and hair dark enough to pass as arabs, and they got searched for much longer than the rest of us did, even at gunpoint once. It is very effective security. I do disagree though that if Palestine were to lay down their weapons tomorrow, there would be no war. From what I understand, they want the Palestinians gone because Israel is their God-given land. And I absolutely do not believe that disarming Palestine would eliminate all the maltreatment. I believe that Israelis would still try to force them off their land.

Also, this is going to sound very harsh, but please bear with me. I think there is a reason that the untra-orthodox Jews in Israel are disliked. I know I personally harbor some feelings against them because of how they treated me as a female. Nothing really bad happened, mind you. But I recall one instance in which my mother and I got in an elevator with three orthodox jewish men (you can tell by the clothing they wear, mind you.) We stepped in, they looked at us and then stepped away from us and made slight faces. It confused us, so we asked out guide what we might have done to offend them. Apparently, some just dislike women as women are seen as temptresses. Mind you, we wore skirts and long shorts or pants and shirts that covered the chest and shoulders at all times. We always wore that if not more, so we weren't dressed promiscuously. But I feel like that illustrates that they still hold on to unpopular traditional values, some that might even offend visitors.

Of course, that is a very small portion of the population. In the same elevator, I got on with my brother who got searched thoroughly. I had gotten some sun too, and passed as a local a couple of times. Another man got on with us and tried speaking to us in his language, and we had to explain that we were tourists. We all had a bit of a giggle at it. He seemed totally fine, though, see? But there are so many different people in Israel, I suspect that at some point you'll inevitably come across someone who offends you in some way. Keep that in mind, then, for me. First, that you are right and that Israel has some great security, but the debate is whether or not it is worth the mistreatment of the Palestinians. Second, that there are always things that you and I will have not experienced, things that we aren't able to speak of because we have not experienced them. So consider that while weighing in on your own opinion and on mine.

You bring up that the state of Israel is militaristic as though it justifies Israel's apartheid policy towards Arabs. I understand that Israel is a country where every citizen is born into war, but I still think that all people have rights, and it is a governments duty to protect those rights.

The PURPOSE of government is to protect the people.

I will have to disagree with that. The purpose of a government, in my opinion, is the protection of individual rights through laws which clarify the proper use of force. Not different sets of laws for different sets of people.

they aren't going to be letting Arabs be treated equally until the surrounding Arab nations are on par with Israel as far as being humane.

In my opinion, this is wrong. To persecute another race because of the actions of another state is despicable.

Maybe I'm just strongly opposed to apartheid police states and I don't fully understand Israel, but I do not see Israel as an example of democracy and I don't support their policies.

I have walked all the same places. I think your "novel" is a bit of propaganda pushing a very racist agenda. When I walked the places you talk about I kept thinking about the difference culture makes. Israel is a wonderful place to live because they focus on producing goods and services that other people want. The Islamic zones, are, for the most part, hellholes because they focus on killing others, and indulge the politics of envy.

The Islamic countries are not poor because Israel is rich. Israel is rich because they worked their arse off turning a malaria ridden swamp (with no resources) into a paradise, by the sweat of their brow. The Islamic countries have sat for the last hundred years on the oil treasure trove of the world, and have slid farther and farther into poverty because of their own darn ignorance.

As long as Islamic nations continue to lock women in the back room, forbidding them to learn to read and write, as long as they kill all the gays, and persecute their fellow citizens who promote innovation and development, they will remain in the poverty and tyranny they make for themselves. As long as they choose to remain in the cosmology and ideology of the 12th century they will remain in the poverty of the 12th century, and blaming the Jews for it is at best a red herring.

Orthodox Jewish people aren't really pushing equality either. I'm not sure how much Israel worked its ass off to get its land. If what I'm told is correct, it was given to them as a result of WWII because no one wanted the refuges. It's some of the most fertile land in all of the world.

I don't think the OP or you are giving a fair representation of things. I think what you're saying has some truth but why defend the Jews so much? They've definitely been jerks as well.

Actually, Israel was an uninhabited malarial swamp after World War I, when the Jews began to arrive. The total inhabitants numbered in the tens of thousands. I am not suggesting that that the hard work of the Israelis gained them the land, but only that it turned this swamp into a wonderful place to live.

I spent most of my adult life working in and around both the Israelis and the Muslims. I don't disagree at all that the Israeli state has a very dark side to it. Doesn't every state? I also agree that the Orthodox are not for equality, but they only pull down about 5% of the vote. So they are not in charge.

In fact, Israel has Palestinian representatives in their Parliament. Israel allows Palestinians to bring direct legal challenge in court against any government action. If you go and look up the facts you will find that in a majority of cases the Israeli supreme court rules in favor of the Palestinians. This last fact shows that injustice is being done to Palestinians, but it also shows a democratic response to the injustice.

Can any Islamist state claim the same towards it's Jewish inhabitants? Why do we never talk about the native Christian population of Bethlehem that was driven into exile by murder and intimidation? Why do we never talk of how the Christians of Iraq and Egypt are treated, nor talk of the hundreds of thousands of Jewish citizens that disappeared into thin air in Iran, Afghanistan, and the Islamic states that came out of Russia? What happened to all those Jews?

Actually, Israel was an uninhabited malarial swamp after World War I, when the Jews began to arrive. The total inhabitants numbered in the tens of thousands.

What a blatant lie.

In fact, Israel has Palestinian representatives in their Parliament.

Whose votes don't count.

For an objective account of the state of Palestine, go and read Mark Twain's description during his tour of the Holy Land. His description was rendered immediately before the Jews began to return. He had no bias, and politics had not yet put spin on any of the facts. You might also look the census and the reports of the map making teams of the British Empire after they took over the administration of the region from the Turks. You will find that my comments are bang on. Palestine was an uninhabited wasteland, notorious for it's malaria and other diseases.

Why don't you address yourself to how the Supreme Court of Israel sides with the Palestinians again and again? Can you cite any Islamic land that gives such rights and protection to it's Christian, Jewish, or Zoroastrian minorities?

Why is it only Israel that seems to illicit your ire, when virtually every Islamic country around it does so much worse on every single point you care to name?

Can you cite any Islamic land that gives such rights and protection to it's Christian, Jewish, or Zoroastrian minorities?

This doesn't have shit to do with Israel. Non-sequitur.

Why don't you address yourself to how the Supreme Court of Israel sides with the Palestinians again and again?

Extraordinary claims require proof. Your claim is extraordinary.

Why is it only Israel that seems to illicit your ire...

Where do you get this from? Plenty of countries illicit my ire, and my own country, the United States, is one of them.

...when virtually every Islamic country around it does so much worse on every single point you care to name?

1. Because that's what I expect from Islamic countries.

2. Because Israel became a country because of the persecution of the Jews, and now they are doing the same to people who inhabited that land before it was handed over, quite illegally, to the Jews.

Your displaying the mentality of a three year old. Blanking out the facts that explode your position, and expose your hypocrisy. Insisting there be one set of rules for Israel, and another set of rules for Muslims.

And by the way, the fact that Muslims can bring law suits before the Israeli Supreme Court is not extraordinary. It is a fact that even the Muslims admit, and come around asking people to give money to the fund to hire the best lawyers. I have given it money myself.

The results of these lawsuits is not extraordinary either. You count up the number of suits brought, and then you count the number of times the court has ruled in favor of the Palestinians. The Court rules in favor of the Palestinians 2 to 1 as a matter of fact.

Which brings us back to how the Muslims are treating their minorities, and why I oppose their cause. It also brings us back to the fact that all they have to do to have a two state solution is acknowledge Israel's right to exist, and round up the terrorists. Until they do, I will support Israel, and every civilized soul should do the same.

Blanking out the facts that explode your position, and expose your hypocrisy.

You haven't cited a single fact yet. You've offered conjecture and nothing there. You're displaying the mentality of a 3 year old.

And by the way, the fact that Muslims can bring law suits before the Israeli Supreme Court is not extraordinary.

Oh, how generous! Citizens can act like citizens (and then get shit all over)! Wow! What a fucking massive move forward!

You count up the number of suits brought, and then you count the number of times the court has ruled in favor of the Palestinians.

Prove it. You made the claim, so prove it's true.

It also brings us back to the fact that all they have to do to have a two state solution is acknowledge Israel's right to exist...

They already have, however, Israel doesn't like who it is that is in power that have issued such a decree. That and Palestine insist, rightly so, that Israel remove all settlements, which are quite illegal, and go back to the '68 borders. Israel won't agree to this very reasonable request, so they refuse to give peace. Because they want to continue to be able to steal land.

...and every civilized soul should do the same.

No civilized person would support Israel.

http://middleeast.about.com/od/documents/qt/Plo-Recognizes-Israels-Right-To-Exist.htm

You have good taste

I have walked all the same places. I think your "novel" is a bit of propaganda pushing a very racist agenda.

You just talked about how what he said was "pushing a very racist agenda", yet you yourself turn this into some sort of religious propaganda as well.

Religious? I am a gay man of American Indian descent. I wonder what religion I am pandering to?

There is a viscous anti Semitic strain gaining momentum through out the world as we speak. It seeks the destruction of the State of Israel, and blanks out the repeated statements of the Islamist that there will be no peace until all the Jews are killed.

I protest this, and all who support it, as I would protest the potential genocide of any social or racial group.

Amen.

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You seriously overestimate the amount of American help. Israeli citizens turned that desert into a garden by working the land, planting forests, one acre at a time.

When it comes to the aid we gave Israel, 90% of that was military aid. I spent 20 years in Air Force military intelligence. Believe me when I tell you we got our money's worth in all the data collection they shared with us in vital areas of the world. Then there is the way the took our weapons, radically improved them, and gave us back the improved technology. We got our monies worth several times over.

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Perhaps I misunderstood your comment. You seemed to be suggesting that the Israelis did not develop Israel, but that America paid for it with foreign aid. I believe Israel turned a swamp into one of the best places in the world to live by their own efforts, and I believe they have done more for America than America has done for them. But that is just my opinion, and no offense was taken.

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Provided fantastic HUMINT intelligence across one third of the earth. Saving us billions in doing it for our-self. They have also taken and improved countless weapon systems we have given them in aid, and then given us the improved technology free of charge. The cost savings here far exceed the amount we give them.

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Pretty simple. Israeli intelligence has the Muslim world wired for sound. That is 2 billion right there. They have also complete coverage of Western Europe from Britain to the Urals. Add this up and it exceeds one third, actually.

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Israel's superb intelligence service, and it's faithful assistance to the US has been reported on repeatedly in the world press. If you don't know about it, you just don't want to see it.

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Unless you are willing to admit that they treat their minorities better than every other country in the Mid East it can only be your personal bigotry and hatred in the way. Because that is the incontestable fact.

The Muslims in Israel are treated better there than in any Islamic country in the world. Doesn't that tell you something?

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Your engaging in chop logic now. Go back and read your own comment that I was responding to, and my meaning becomes quite clear.

Personally, I believe all humans to be brothers and sisters and made in God's image. I believe each one of us will face an audit by our Creator for how we treat those who come into our path, and no one will be able to cheat or escape that confrontation with the objective truth.

From the beginning of this discussion to this point I have stressed that the Palestinians deserve their own state every bit as much as the Jews. A two state solution is the only way out of this dilemma. With each sovereign in their own territory.

racist

wait, what? Please explain.

You call for actions that would destroy the Israeli state. You call for actions that would serve up millions of Jews to nations and peoples who publicly pronounce they are going to kill all the Jews, and drive them into the sea. You side with people who publicly declare over and over that Hitler's crime was that he didn't finish the job.

You do not admit that Israel acknowledges the right of the Palestinians to exist, and you do not admit that the Palestinian Authority, the Hamas, and Hezbollah reject the right of Israel to exist. You pretend that the flotilla was about shipping food to the Palestinians, when the whole world knows it was simple a device to lift the weapons blockade to the terrorists raining down missiles on Israel.

You propose actions that will bring death and misery to millions of Jews because they are Jews. In any book, that is racist.

You call for actions

I didn't call for any actions, and neither did the guy telling the story.

You propose actions that will bring death and misery to millions of Jews because they are Jews. In any book, that is racist.

Again, neither I nor the OP proposed any actions.

As far as hating Jews and wanting to exterminate them goes, that is neither racist nor anti-semitic, since Jews aren't a race, and aren't the only Semitic group in existence (Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews are largely not Semitic, actually). The people who usually espouse such views are often Semitic themselves, and to a much larger extent than the Jews.

I don't really have a position on Israel, except that it's definitely not on the same level as the U.S., western Europe, or even east Asia, in terms of racial and multicultural tolerance.

So the Jews aren't really Jews, and they aren't a race. I guess that makes it ok to kill them then...

You're pretty bad at reading comprehension.

My comprehension is fine, and the intention of your assertions are crystal clear.

It really isn't, and you're making up your own weird intentions.

Jesus will not stand up for injustice...PM me if you want to talk more as I have the solution.

You should see pictures of all the killing they did.. Or the video of these Jewish guys around a Palestinian woman pretending like they were going to give her money then when she reached they snatched it away and all laughed and insulted her and she began crying immediately. Or the picture if the little boy who came home to fid out his home was demolished by Jews because it wasn't built with proper permits. Or the video of Jewish men kicking this Palestinian woman out if her house ad yelling in her face and laughing. But the killing.. It's terrible. Ill try to find the link to the website I saw a few years ago. Actually I won't. It's fucking disgusting. Armed and armored men killing unarmed people who have rocks to throw as weapons, at best. I was probably 14 when my dad was in his computer looking at the pictures. I remember sitting for a long time just scrolling through hundred if pictures of true genocide.. I sat still and silent for a long time. I got up, and walked to my bed. I felt sick and I cried, filled with feelings of anger and hatred. It changed me. They killed two of my cousins and a great uncle. One woman because she was protecting her child and they shot her.. Another just wanted to go to the mosque to pray but they decided to kill him. My great uncle went fishing to feed his family. They were starving, they decided to shoot and kill him because he was out too late. The oppression, poverty, and war crimes are unimaginable. But the whole world lets them get away with it and turns a blind eye.

Agree about the colonialism. When I visited Israel a few years ago, the flotillia incidents happened and the media coverage was staggering - between the N. American newspapers and the Israelian newspapers, the only one that managed to cover it from an unbiased point of view were the Europeans/way outside of N. America's influence system. Met with a few Arabs and Arab-Israelians, who shared their stories with us... suffice to say my eyes were opened after that.

Would it impress you, if Israel would let the security shield down and make everyone of their citizens exposed more to death than they already are?

Do you think that if they transfer Jerusalem to palestinians, it would be great accomplishment for the world peace?

The wall was built because of the war.

If you have a car and nice possessions, which you bought with the money you earned, why don't you become ashamed of your wealth and let poor people take all of that?

I'm not defending atrocities, which Israel army does to protect the money flow from US, but I defending logic of being protected from people who wishes you harm. This is the tactic, the strategy would be to find a way to coexist and remove hostility from both sides.

Until then, the wall is necessity.

Do you remember the cab driver from Total Recall? "I've got five kids to feed"

It would impress me if they stopped actively trying to wipe the Palestinians off the map. Stop the settlements. Now. That has to be the first step. Absolutely nothing will get any better at all until that happens.

Israel got themselves into this situation. I'm pretty sure if I was a young Palestinian, I'd grow up incredibly angry, uneducated, and with a bone to pick with Israel too, given the treatment they've seen.

They DO NOT try to wipe the Palestinians off the map. They would be very bad at that if they tried considering there were less Palestinians killed since Israel was founded than Syrians killed in the current civil war. They stopped the settlements for about a year that lead to nothing. They released prisoners which also lead to nothing. Both sides must be willing and able, which isn't the case.

Israel is not blameless but it also isn't the only party at blame. Uneducated Palestinians are not so because of Israel, they have schools and their own ministry of education.

Uneducated Palestinians are not so because of Israel, they have schools and their own ministry of education.

Education follows economy (as well as other factors, yes). Poor areas have shitty education. That's how it works.

The Palestinian economy is in shambles. Without fixing that, which would require Israel to help rebuild it at this point, and not actively impede it, no progress is going to be made.

Israel does not impede Palestinian economy, Israel always try to promote it, and other nations too, but sometimes leaders are corrupt and terrorist organizations don't lead to stability. Plus, the economy is not worse than other countries' around. It's better than Egypt or Syria for sure. You'd be surprised how many rich Palestinians are there (like Munib al-Masri for example)

As I have said: the strategy should be: to make peace from BOTH sides.

The tactic is to reduce number of Israel's death, which is why the wall.

I don't have a vested interest in any of the sides of the conflict, in fact, I would like to see it stopped, this is just an observation.

In the words of the Shin Bet: "No strategy, just tactics."

There is absolutely no long-term thinking going on. No ultimate goal of peace in mind. It's "kill the terrorists, build the walls, arm yourself" without any consideration for the consequences of such militaristic behavior.

Typical arab lies.

being protected from people who wishes you harm.

So...you're stating that Palestine wishes to do Israel harm, and not the other way around, is that what I'm understanding?

They both wish to do harm to each other.

The difference is, that Israel wishes well and has means to do so, for their own people.

The root of this conflict is the money being trown at Palestinians and Israelis to keep fighting.

If they make peace, money will stop coming.

The difference is, that Israel wishes well...

Israel wishes well of its own people. Historically, it's been proven that they don't wish well for the Palestinians, or at the very least, most Israeli's have a passive hatred of them. Also, and more importantly, Israel has the means to do demonstrable harm to Palestine, and Palestine, in return...not so much. Sticks and stones I guess.

If they make peace, money will stop coming.

Now you're making some sense.

If you have a car and nice possessions, which you bought with the money you earned, why don't you become ashamed of your wealth and let poor people take all of that?

"Because there are poor people, and as long as there are poor people, no one should be allowed to live comfortably" - Popular opinion in the US

Opinion mostly among poor people and rich people with guilty concience.

Btw comfort is not one of the things mentioned in the Bill of Rights

The reason the security at the border is SO harsh is because the Israelis have to be correct 100% of the time. The terrorists only have to be correct 1 time. I have been there before, and as a Westerner, it is very hard to grasp this as we do not have to face constant terror threats in our daily lives.

The problem is that the Palestinians have not made the place they live in a nice place to live. The reason Israel is so nice is because they have properly developed their country. The Palestinians have not. Also the amount of suicide bombers and Palestinian militants are a valid reason to put up a massive wall and have strict border control.

But.. It's not colonialism when the land was their's in the first place.

It only becomes colonialism when the evil white people are involved.

Wait, hold up. You mean to tell me when an entire country is attacked constantly and is under the constant threat of annihilation, they get a little touchy with their security? Ya don't say. . .

The beanie-baby-toting, texting, pony-tail-sporting young girl with the ROCKET LAUNCHER should have clued you in that maybe Israelis live in a situation that is somewhat inconsistent with American sensibilities.

Maybe the Israelis aren't doing everything perfectly and yes, they are probably a bit heavy handed with security, but I can't say I blame them.

May the butthurt and downvotes flow.

I've also been to Israel, in my experience my tour group and I were walking around the 'Muslim Quarter.' Immediately upon arriving and getting off the bus we were having rocks thrown at our group and then a pipe thrown within 5 feet of me. After escaping that we went on our way and began the tour. At the end of the tour we were in a Muslim marketplace and we began to be surrounded by them chanting "Fuck America, Fuck you." I was twelve years old at this time in my life and 10 years later I will never forget the fear I felt when we were running away. Your 'conspiracy' is bullshit, Israel has to protect themselves and I fully support them in that.

You are absolutely right anytime one of us Muslims sees an American we have this uncontrollable urge to yell out FUCK AMERICA because we are all, in fact, terrorists. As a matter of fact, as a Muslim who is now an American citizen, I yell it at myself all the time !

Ahh, the ignorance of some people...

I'm not saying all Muslims at all, however it was 2 separate groups, 10 the first time and 30-40 the second. Of the 400 or so I saw that day. That was a high percentage but by no means was I trying to say that all Muslims were terrorists?

Fair enough, but keep in mind that personal anecdotes, even though they certainly have a huge effect on you yourself, can give people a somewhat lopsided perspective and not take into account the history of things. For example, if I were to take out an entire village of 199 people, and the 200th shot me in the foot, I could hobble back to my base and claim that as I was walking into a village I got shot in the foot by some crazed local. Its true, but since it starts and ends where my contributions do, it doesnt paint an accurate picture. An extreme example for sure but the basic idea is that the horrid conditions and treatment of the Palestinians by the Israelis speaks so much more than a few dozen folks angry at the West.

I was twelve years old at this time in my life and 10 years later I will never forget the fear I felt when we were running away.

10 years later...so you waltzing through the "Muslim Quarter" checking them out like some zoo exhibit during the height of the Second Intifada? With a tour group full of people whose taxes pay for the weapons that were slaughtering them? Boo hoo, poor you, getting some rocks thrown at you in hostile territory during the height of Israel & Palestine's bloodiest modern conflict, before retreating to your comfortable hotel room to ignore the bombs falling on Nablus. You have a horrible understanding of context - 5,000 people died, you fuck.

Fuck you. You would be mad too if you were subjected to those living conditions and then had rich people come to see you living in abject poverty like you are an exhibit in a museum.

Ohhhhhhhhh give me a break. I am going to get downvoted to oblivion for this, but screw it.

The truth is that you, and everyone else replying kindly to your post is either:

1. Arabic (there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with this, but ethnicity IS a factor when discussing matters like this)
2. An ultra-liberal hippy that takes most info from other ultra-liberal hippies

The truth is that everything you described is either:

1. True in EVERY single border between a rich country and a poor one. Have you ever seen the US-Mexico border? The same high walls, barbed wire, crazy screening process (4 hour lines!), etc etc, is present there too. The same beautiful roads and buildings on one end, crumbling and dilapidated infrastructure on the other. Believe me, I've been there.

2. Untrue or exaggerated. I have been to Israel on many occasions and you make it sound like Palestinians are being treated like animals. Palestinians segregated, stopped, searched and their belongings dumped out? WHAT? This is the biggest bunch of nonsense I've ever read.

Now here's the TRUTH of the matter: Israel is living side-by-side with an extremely hostile and unpredictable neighbor. A neighbor that will shake your hand one minute, only to stab you in the back the next when you put your guard down. Do you know what that feels like? Here in the USA, we started two wars and killed countless innocents after we were attacked ONCE on 9/11. Can you imagine living next to a neighbor who constantly harasses you and kills your civilians? Do you think US citizens would be OK with that? To what ends of the earth do you think US citizens would demand that the US flexes its military might against the aggressors? What sort of tactics do you think the US would employ on the Mexican border if Mexico was a threat?

Having said all that, do I agree with all of Israel's politics? No, I don't. But then again, I don't agree 100% with any country's politics. There is no saint among countries. Israel is no different. They do a lot of things right, and they do a lot of things wrong.

So to sum up, yes, Israel DOES employ heavy security measures around its border regions so that they don't let through anyone that shouldn't be there. The difference between the US-Mexico border and the Israel-Palestine border is that most US border patrol personnel don't need to worry about a suicide bomb being strapped on to every Mexican that wants to "have a better life" in the US. And yet, despite that, the border looks surprisingly similar to the Israel-Palestine border. So take your self-righteous and naive dribble somewhere else, and try to understand how the real world works.

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The reason Israel even has a hostile neighbor is because it bulldozes homes, inflicts fear intok the civilian population

How many homes did the US bulldoze in Iraq and Afghanistan in their hunt for enemy combatants? How many did the Allies in WWII? Do you REALLY think Israel bulldozes homes for pleasure? On the other hand, do you have anything to say about the fact that Palestinian militants purposely hide themselves in civilian homes and population centers, knowing full well that civilians will get killed, and they can then spin the story against Israelis? Do you not see anything wrong there?

antagonizes them, and drives people into a corner (literally, see the Gaza Strip.)

How can you honestly talk about antagonizing a population when Palestinian militants actively work day-and-night to terrorize Israeli civilians? Do you think the Israeli military is actively trying to target civilians in the same manner?

As for driving their people in a corner, this is what happens when people support terrorists. If Palestinians were to reject Hamas and Hezbollah, and accept a peaceful existence with Israel, you'd see how quickly Israel would provide aid and tear down the walls.

Don't forget that when Israel was founded, the government offered citizenship to all Palestinians. The Palestinians refused, instead opting to terrorize and fight until Israel was wiped off the face of the earth.

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NONE.

If you really believe that, I have nothing to debate with you about. Being so naive as to think that the US doesn't destroy homes and kill civilians in their hunt for combatants means that there is really no way for me to have a legitimate discussion with you.

I also love how you completely dismiss the points I make that have to do with how the Palestinians also have significant fault (eg, it being a known fact that militants hide in civilian areas on purpose; the population supporting and maintaining a terrorist infrastructure; etc).

The whole country looked like a shithole until the Jews came. They didn't ruin anything for the Arabs, they just built their own society that the Arabs couldn't.

Said every colonialism apologist ever

I'd mark myself in that category. What's inherently wrong with a colonizer if they improve conditions in general?

Did you even read /u/161719's anecdote?

I did, but I don't get how that refutes what I said. Obviously conditions are shitty for Palestinians, but they were shitty before the Jews came. The Jews brought infrastructure and the fact of the matter is those hospitals still treat the Arabs despite having no real obligation to do so. Palestinians get more international aid than almost anyone else, they're just too corrupt to handle it well.

I wish white people could get such a pass on blatant colonialism.

Your story is fake.

When you go through it, you are asked many questions about who you are and where you come from.

Going from Israel into the West Bank is easy and requires no check. It is going the other way that can take time, but usually not. So many reports say "oh, hours of checkpoints" but it simply isn't true. Thousands of Palestinians go into Israel everyday, if it took that long it wouldn't be logistically possible.

You have to drive some distance out of Jerusalem to get to the wall.

No, you don't. One can walk from Jerusalem to Bethlehem.

There are little plaques ... in English and Hebrew and Russian and Italian.

You mean Hebrew, Arabic, and English.

The bus stopped several times and the Palestinians were made to get off and be searched.

This did not happen. There aren't even individual, less multiple, stops of buses inside Israel for security checks of anyone. You are parroting hearsay.

...they passed out snacks.

More nonsense. The bus driver gave you snacks?

You just made up a story and got tons of karma for it. This is a sure sign that you're only information about the Israel/Palestine conflict is from bias sources. Go there for real, and you will see how different it actually is from the impressions you got from a couple youtube videos.

They are extremely paranoid about their land because the Jews have been systematically exorcised from location after location, a people without a country, for so long. Heck, they didn't even have a country to call their own until after the firggin Holocaust. They've had a rough life. They just can't seem to catch a break. Now they finally have a place to call home and the Muslims are crying foul because the land that was theirs to begin with and was taken away has supposedly fallen under the "finders keepers" law and needs to be returned to "the rightful owners". So Israel is in constant battle with a nation that is a perfect example of why vigilant democracy is far better than a de facto theocracy and they pay for their fanaticism with poverty and squalor.

Modern day Israel is the way it is because of the fanaticism and mistaken manifest destiny of their neighboring states and they in turn are subject to the product of their delusion. Jesus said: "Be as gentle as doves but wise as serpents."

So no, Jesus would definitely say to keep your home safe in light of letting a fanatic blow it up.

If there's a reason your comment got deleted it's probably because it's a deliberate half truth instead of a whole one. I may be a personal account but it reads like universal fact without showing both sides of the story.

Oherwise, great read!

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Possibly from Isreali and American repression that has been going on for decades in those areas preventing the economic growth and promoting corruption and repression to benefit themselves.

That, and some are extremists that prefer to live in a cave with a goat.

Other than that, the majority are good people who share the same ethics and morality like you and I.

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That is a comical generalization...did CNN teach you that?

I don't understand? So Israel shouldn't be allowed to maintain their boarders?

That's like saying it's the UAE's fault that that Oman has social issues, or that Austria isn't allowed to have nice restaurants because there is suffering in Hungary.

Should the US just open up it's southern boarder when Mexico is mainly impoverished due to of the corruption of their government?

The Palestinians are poor as a direct result of Israel's occupation. They restrict their trade and their basic freedoms. The new settlements are illegal, the world turns a blind eye for some reason, but it is one nation building on another's land. What OP is getting at here is the injustice and inhumanity of how nice and "normal" the people in Israel live, and just across the wall the people live in squalor and suffer.

But Palestine isn't a nation. Israel is built on land that they bought and paid for.

Just like the US bought and paid for most of it's land.

Palestine was a nation, it has every right to be.

There are many nations that used to be. That doesn't mean we have to annex Israel and give it to Turkey because the Ottoman Empire used to exist there...

That is the exact reason Israel exists... It was taken out of Palestine, do you know anything of the history there?

Yes. Plenty...

Clearly...

Nice attempt to vilify Israel, but I don't know if you were paying attention to the news a couple of years back. Remember all those buses exploding and innocent people and children dieing at the hands of Palestinians? That why there is security. Those people have proven that they cant be trusted. Go to a border town in Israel that gets rockets fired at it everyday. Then tell me what is a lie.

"A black man robbed me once, all black people are evil"

I'm pretty pacifist, but if I had been treated the same way that the Palestinians have been all my life then I would be firing rockets too. What other option is there? Israel has taken everything from those people.

1. Israel and Israeli government are two very different things.
2. Nobody fires rockets at someone for the hell of it.

Remember the little kids with rocks being shot as a matter of 'public safety'? Stuff it.

Honestly, no sane person would put up with what the average Palestinian puts up with. I honestly don't understand the Israeli "settlement" folk either. Why do that? What is the goal? Hasn't everyone suffered enough?

True enough, when you're at war with every backwater, half witted Islamic fundamentalist in the Arab world, it's not hard to see how these policies came into effect. Israel will loosen up when the Arab world grows up and backs off, till then, it's harsh security detail. Obviously there are plenty of Muslims that aren't anti-Israel, but still.

Every time the arab world looses up Israel sets new settlements against international rulings. When they complain they get shot. When they blow up a bus they get their homes rocketed. And you are paying for it.

You never forget things like this... just like in their eyes, they will never forget the fact that a country tried to wipe their race and religion from the face of the planet. The hate goes both ways for a reason.

Doesn't justify their shit.

Understanding is not the same as justification.

No it's not. But after reading the above, your immediate response was 'a country tried to wipe them off the face of the earth'. Comes off very much as an attempt at justification.

It's not pertinent to today's situation as much as it is fallacial thinking to relate that fact to today's situation

It's like they've learned nothing and instead are using it as justification - it's sickening. An eye for an eye will make the whole world go blind...

The bus stopped several times and the Palestinians were made to get off and be searched. Their bags were taken off the bus and dumped out, and the soldiers kicked through their belongings at the side of the road and we sat inside the bus and watched and they passed out snacks.

I believed you until that part. That doesn't sound true. The soldiers just kicked their stuff for fun?

They weren't kicking it around like soccer they just used their boot to look through it. Moving shirts and stuff. Not running and kicking.

I Actually can believe this to an extent... the Respect levels of the Soldiers there are Zero to none... best way i could explain them would be how the Nazi's treated non-Arians...

Probably best to avoid NAZI comparisons when talking about Israel.

Well they have experience... I don't like Nazi's, but as a conspiracy, it adds up to them to use Nazi tactics because it worked on them.

Then where do you stop?

If we're comparing governments to the NAZIs we might want to call recent NSA activity 'Gestapo-esqe', we may draw similarities between NAZI indoctrination of children and religiously-informed bigotry in Saudi schools, we may say that Islamic gangs in Britain bear resemblance to the brown-shirts.

Godwin's law perhaps doesn't apply here, but there is a reason why it is often argued that when said law is invoked the thread should draw to a close. It is not really a valid form criticism or argument, it is an emotive hyperbole designed to pre-emptively quash any disagreement.

I find that Godwin's Law is invoked more regularly on the subject of Israel than any other, on both sides of the argument, and there can be no mistake that this is directly relating to the role the holocaust in the establishment of the country.

Frankly I find it repulsive and wholly insensitive to those that lived through the holocaust, and Jewish people who are affected by it.

I mean no disrespect, but Im not trying to please anyone by saying this. although Godwins law is taken in effect, I honestly think that a Nazi Military is a viable source of influence for the Israeli Military, since it Devastatingly worked. Israel is a country that was founded on the aftermath of a genocide, and (although Israel uses the Genocide to Greater any argument against this, which is what i assume what your doing) is using what it learned from those experiences to better themselves. Israel is smart but that doesn't mean they are right.

You have no idea what my political stance is on the Israel issue, my comment was intentionally neutral in order to singularly address the insensitivity of your comparison.

Your original comment did not at all suggest that the Israeli military take inspiration from Nazis, but that they were 'like Nazis'.

I've said all I have to say, and I'm tired, so I'm going to leave this one. Don't expect a response.

I have nothing to say... you take this like it was a preference. I only speak my opinion on the matter, which i am now assuming you are against. I stand that I agreed on Israel having systems that greatly resemble a nazi government, not only as a military, but as a government. Let me give you an example of this.

Nazis would cut off most, if not, all of the Jewish people from their neighborhoods. the methods differ as Nazi's would do it in a way that would either force physically or financially to eradicate all jewish people from their society. If this Isn't similar to Israelis physically, forcing a Wall to be built under the illusion of protection. In other terms to segregate the Palestinian people from entering west Israel and cut them off from their society.

Ive been told that Palestinians were too radical, in the sense of danger, to control and this made it hard for Israel to Properly function as a society; that this is the reason for the Wall. Building a wall to fix a problem is like covering a gunshot wound with a bandaid. but if they were trying to separate the people so they can take the land for themselves it would make more sense. Building a wall to keep a snake from eating a rabbits would be a better analogy of what is happening in Palestine to this day.

as for your political stance on Israel... If it ain't a conspiracy I don't give a rats ass.

You should've stopped believing earlier. The dividing wall runs right through Jerusalem. You don't have to "drive some distance out of Jerusalem."

Having been to the region many times I can explain to you why he had to drive out of the way to get there- as he said he was only there to go to Bethlehem, which is about 20 km away or so. Yes the wall goes through Jerusalem but there are only a few checkpoints- you can't just walk through the wall anywhere. The Bethlehem crossing is a ways from the center of Jerusalem. Also- believe. My whole world view was changed after seeing it for myself and I have countless stories just like his.