[Guidelines update] Moving reddit-related conspiracies to /r/redditconspiracy
0 2013-12-01 by solidwhetstone
Hello everyone.
There's been a lot of drama here in the past few days about moderator abuse in other subreddits. Since this subreddit is called /r/conspiracy, it was natural for people to think that that should be called out here.
We (the mod team- all the way to the top mod) would like to propose a change to the community: Posting reddit-related conspiracies to /r/redditconspiracy. The reason for this is simple: It keeps the focus of this sub on real world larger conspiracies (such as NSA, NWO, 9/11, etc.) and relegates meta discussions to a separate board. We want the content of this sub to be timely, relevant, interesting, factual, and quality. Allowing posts about infighting among mods and users on reddit doesn't fit that paradigm too well. We continue to believe that censorship is a bad thing- and we are not attempting to censor anyone. We simply want to suggest to the community that another subreddit already exists for this type of conspiracy post, and we want to officially endorse its use.
Thoughts?
My thoughts re: objections
- "But /r/redditconspiracy is small." Yes, it's small right now- but with official endorsement by /r/conspiracy, we'd like to see it grow big. We'd like to see it become a watchdog group that holds the rest of reddit accountable.
- "Aren't you just moving unfavorable opinions somewhere else?" That's not at all what is being proposed here. We're proposing that meta discussion be moved to a forum that focuses on meta discussion.
- "Isn't this censorship?" Post guidelines are not censorship. Censorship is the removal of content based on a disagreement with the subject matter. We agree with the subject matter of holding reddit accountable. We support it. We believe in it. And we want to help facilitate that discussion. What we're talking about is moving the discussion to another subreddit and then encouraging people to go there to discuss those things.
Initial feedback seems negative- so I would ask you this: can you make a counter proposal that would enable holding the rest of reddit accountable without creating witch hunts and potential false flags?
57 comments
34 [deleted] 2013-12-01
[deleted]
17 natural_pooping 2013-12-01
Exactly. This r/conspiracy sub itself is not that big and many other smallish censorship related topics are handled here aswell, be it some MSM website censorship or such, reddit conspiracies fit here just fine.
If we discussed only "real world large conspiracies" there wouldn't be much new stuff daily here. Also, if each different conspiracy type had it's own sub, a lot would be missed by us. The day this sub grows a lot larger I would understand a decision to move internal reddit conspiracies to a dedicated sub, but not today, not yet atleast.
Edit: counter proposal: keep things as they are. This corner of the internet has the largest collection of tinfoil hat users so witch hunts are unavoidable I guess. Moving those hunts to some other smaller sub out of sight doesn't remove the issue.
7 klmd 2013-12-01
It's called 'marginalize' the unwanted. More commonly called CENSORSHIP.
27 AssuredlyAThrowAway 2013-12-01
Nope.
Dilutes discussion of important censorship related issues to a fringe sub.
I am 100% against this and I'm sad to even see it presented. Makes me think a change in the mod team is needed asap.
18 ronintetsuro 2013-12-01
Seconded. A big part of the early push to defang reddit was breaking all coherent discussion out into subreddits. I understand the angle the mods are coming from with this, and I appreciate the call to ask the community what it wants. I can only assume this decision was a direct result of the fallout from past mod actions taken without warning or discussion. Fractured the sub and almost killed it.
That said, starting down the already paved slippery slope of fracturing this sub further is a non-starter. Tag meta posts if you must, but I think the conversations and research that has been started as a result of those posts are far more valuable than the overstated clutter of the subs page. For instance, there are posters that clutter up the subs page daily with infowars and beforeitsnews links. No discussion happening over what to do about those posts.
And as far as not wanting this to become a breeding ground for mod drama, I have an idea on how to fix that: get better mods.
1 2akurate 2013-12-01
How you were right. I'm going through this guy's comments and he has nothing but bad ideas, who the fuck is this guy.
22 supduderrr 2013-12-01
I'm not sure I'm in favor of this. This would make transparency a bit more difficult.
3 klmd 2013-12-01
That's the whole idea.
18 [deleted] 2013-12-01
LOL Flytape is gone, now this. What's next, all new moderators? No anti-government posts, banned domains, etc.
11 AssuredlyAThrowAway 2013-12-01
Time for a community culled mod team if you ask me; this is one step too far by the current mods and I don't doubt flytape leaving had something to do with this blatant attempt at the suppression of the free flow of information.
I thought this sub was better than this. Shame on you mods.
3 Flytape 2013-12-01
This hadn't ever been discussed when I was a mod.
I can see both sides of this debate.
10 AssuredlyAThrowAway 2013-12-01
So you think there's merit to the claim that content should be suppressed here because of potential "witch hunting" and "false flags"? as reflected by the edit made to the OP which reads;
That sounds straight up like the admins want this change implemented by these mods regardless of what this community has to say, and that's fucked up.
1 Flytape 2013-12-01
Like I said I can see both sides.
Sometimes the reddit-conspiracy stuff is just one person's vendetta, sometimes its worth giving air time.
Hopefully the mods can balance that out somehow.
-1 [deleted] 2013-12-01
[deleted]
4 AssuredlyAThrowAway 2013-12-01
Nice try bipolarbear0's alt; we all know you try to smear this place with your fake anti-Semitic trash.
The only crazy people here are those who wish to silence opinions and content due to their personal bias.
Erik and Alexis can have their PR firms with their mod buddies, but we're still watching ;).
-1 solidwhetstone 2013-12-01
So proposing a guideline change to the community and soliciting feedback is 'one step too far?' Hyperbole. Making rule changes without consulting you would be going to far. But how are we supposed to know whether the community is in support of something without asking?
7 AssuredlyAThrowAway 2013-12-01
It's one step too far when you presume what the focus of the sub should be and imply you would be in favor of pushing content outside of that zone to a splinter community. Don't get me I wrong I appreciate you asking, but it's what you're asking for that has me concerned.
-4 solidwhetstone 2013-12-01
All across reddit- moderators are guiding their communities through community guidelines. If you are familiar with moderation, you know the deal. Some mods have a very draconian vision for their subreddit (like /r/askscience), some mods couldn't care less what gets posted. I think there should be balance- sometimes mods can see the signs of decline in quality and can suggest guidelines that would help quality improve. That's the case for me. To me- posts bitching about mods in other subreddits are usually shitpost quality. And they're almost never true conspiracies. Usually it's one rogue mod who has taken it upon himself to ban a bunch of users. That doesn't fit textbook conspiracy with collusion and a background game going on. So to me- those kinds of posts should be in a drama subreddit- not a serious content-focused subreddit. The alarming thing to me was that the witch hunt post from 2 days ago did as well as it did. Couldn't we have been more focused on the NSA? Or the recent 242 lies of Obama article? Or a million other things that are costing people their lives and privacy? But instead, we get a bitching thread about a single mod who is abusing his power. It just reeks of shitpost to me. But that's all my opinion. I had hoped the community would see things that way too, but apparently not.
10 AssuredlyAThrowAway 2013-12-01
Apparently not indeed.
It's nice you feel this way about posts which expose censorship in other subs, but please do limit expression of this ideal to a downvote. What you've done here reeks of reddit inc coming in and asking you to stop people from reporting on metacensorship.
When you censor because you don't feel the content is up to snuff you open a Pandora's box that is best left untouched. This place was operating fine for everyone outside of reddit inc contractors, so please leave her be. And fuck Alexis.
You realize you are on a forum where the ownership structure owns veiled PR firms? You realize Erik and Alexis have tried to sell their "services" to the trapwire people? Seriously? Do you realize what you're saying?
1 Crimson_D82 2013-12-01
Bait and switch detected.
"C'on guys, aren't these post over here sooo much better than these posts over there? Pointing out censorship on other subreddits aren't as tasty as NWO posts!"
The thing is you can have a conspiracy of one, after all isn't that how they all start? One person's idea of how to get away with something.
2 klmd 2013-12-01
Getting your ass chewed is a good clue.
14 axolotl_peyotl 2013-12-01
I've been taking a bit of a break from reddit as of late, but I thought I'd chime in to say that while I appreciate the gesture of transparency and the mods engaging in a discussion, I don't think this is a good idea.
Take a look at the top scoring links of all time in the conspiracy sub.
The #3 post of all time directly concerns censorship on reddit.
And perhaps I'm biased, but the #15 link of all time was one of my own, and also directly involves reddit censorship (incidentally, this post on /r/conspiracy was a day before /r/politics was removed as a default sub).
The #19 post concerns the /r/bestof comment fiasco from last month.
None of these cases would've gotten remotely the same amount of attention if it weren't for /r/conspiracy, which I should mention is now reaching 200,000 strong.
A tag system might be appropriate, but in general I really think things should stay pretty much the same.
The more relevant reddit becomes as a "news" source, the more important it is to expose censorship.
Again, I appreciate the fact that this discussion is taking place, because hoo boy this sub doesn't like decisions to be made for them.
11 [deleted] 2013-12-01
[deleted]
2 klmd 2013-12-01
But not the mods.
11 Orangutan 2013-12-01
BULLSHIT. Let us decide.
5 KingContext 2013-12-01
Looks like /r/conspiracyv2 may be about to get a lot busier.
10 alllie 2013-12-01
This is censorship. Censorship of censorship. Marginalizing reddit censorship. Making it invisible so even on /r/conspiracy it becomes invisible. I don't suppose you're allowed to tell us you've been ordered to do this. But sad.
We need a new reddit.
12 ronintetsuro 2013-12-01
A new reddit is what they want. A scattering to the wind. We need to defend THIS reddit.
7 joetromboni 2013-12-01
please promote /r/undelete in the new sub so users are aware of how much censorship happens on the frontpage.
1 solidwhetstone 2013-12-01
Thanks! I will sidebar this! Very cool.
7 reputable_opinion 2013-12-01
I agree with all of the objections. The downvote system works fine.
7 KingContext 2013-12-01
That subreddit, according to its side-bar, is nothing but a failed version of /r/HailCorporate.
This is a bad idea.
Please elaborate on the pressure that you've been getting that's led you to this proposal. If this is in fact a unilateral decision, then wow...
Reminds me an awful lot of this shady behavior from the mods that I suspect are in your ear about this.
http://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/1id4k6/concerning_the_odd_behavior_of_rnews_and/
6 [deleted] 2013-12-01
This is bullshit.
6 Ron1774 2013-12-01
A conspiracy is a fucking conspiracy and should be located under conspiracy. Since when should a conspiracy be categorized? I call bullshit to this post! This itself is a conspiracy you retard. Jebus!!!
6 Space_Dragon 2013-12-01
I personally don't support it because it removes immediate tangible issues from a larger audience and relegates it to a subreddit with a post MAYBE once a month with hardly any subscribers. It doesn't seem any different than any other censorship on reddit. A conspiracy after all is a group of people behind the scenes with their own agenda.
5 Twice_As_Nice 2013-12-01
I'm interested in thinking for myself, that's why I come here. If I see a post about something that interests me, I will dig a little deeper and see if everything connects. When it comes to reddit conspiracies, I don't really care. The only thing that bugs me is when certain redditors spam this sub with constant posts about the same thing over and over or spam post different topics but from the exact same website.
If you could have a "timeout" for people who post more than 2 times in a couple of hours, that would be nice. I could go to infowars, before its news, or godlikeproductions or anything else and just spam this sub with anything i find on that site, but I know not everything on that site is credible. Most of what is on those sites are conspiracies not conspiracy theories.
Anyway, I agree with u/host47. We should have [Reddit] type tags to make sure that if it interests you, you should click it.
TL;DR Spamming this thread with same topic, different websites or vice versa is annoying and user who does this should be in timeout after so many posts. Agreed wit u/host47 about the tags.
2 klmd 2013-12-01
Don't censor, except do it the way you want to.
2 Twice_As_Nice 2013-12-01
You're completely right... abut it's not really censoring WHAT you post, just how many times you post in a certain amount of time. Any thread or forum or chat does this when someone spams a room. IMO, it brings the sub quality down. And these are just ideas. The tags would be a good idea pertaining to this thread in particular though. I just thought i'd use this time to address other things that's going on since this was posted by a mod.
5 AssuredlyAThrowAway 2013-12-01
Yea, not what you're here to stop. If we want to hold the rest of reddit accountable we shouldn't have to deal with you lot standing in the way because some admin waves some angry words at you about witch hunts through pm. Fuck those admins.
Seems more and more like the admins did make you post this.
My counter proposal is to leave the sub alone and tell the admins that they're payola fueled bastards.
5 humanthought 2013-12-01
No. Dividing us is never a good idea. Thank you for the consultation.
3 [deleted] 2013-12-01
I can see both sides to this. I want to know how reddit is being manipulated and what's going on with the site, but I don't particularly like it when this sub gets flooded with moderator infighting as you said. What about a [meta] or [reddit] tag for meta posts? That way people don't feel marginalized, but users who aren't interested in who's gaming reddit today can quickly hide (not downvote) the links and move on. Thoughts?
2 solidwhetstone 2013-12-01
Thank you for making a counter-proposal. This could also be a solution. I'd love to hear more ideas like this.
13 TheWraithed 2013-12-01
divide, marginalize, and conquer.
speaking as one that has been shadow banned for speaking here and only here, your just making it worse with this idea. why don't we put the ET's in their own group, and the 9/11 guys in their own group. then we can never be exposed to any other mindset.
intellectual sloth!
if you want to stop the shadow banning it is simple only go to /r/shadowban and post there.
the problem is not the information, it is the action. if you do not want to be flooded by the bad mod info, do something to stop it.
it is like the New World Order/TPTB, if you do not speak out, or act out, then you are going along with it.
no one was a Nazi, until they started to persecute a few. then they all were Nazi's to avoid be the next victim.
3 SovereignMan 2013-12-01
That sounds perfectly reasonable... as a guideline, not a rule.
I'm not in favor of doing that.
3 Lippen 2013-12-01
Reddit is broken,
You cannot censor Truth,
just ignore it.
2 treespiracy 2013-12-01
I really detest this idea and emphatically vote NO.
This is a valid subreddit for discussion of these ideas. Moving the discussion to a seperate subreddit only serves to splinter the community and hides this type of information from being shown to the type of people who would care most to know about it.
2 Orangutan 2013-12-01
Don't even stick shit on the top. We'll vote things up and down, you don't need to over-involve yourself in the process.
2 Superconducter 2013-12-01
It would hide your bullshit performances where no one will see them.
2 petedacook 2013-12-01
/r/conspiracy just got smaller by one subscriber. Shame too, I've been a subscriber here for years.....but your actions suck.
Why would you ask /r/conspiratard how to make /r/conspiracy better instead of asking /r/conspiracy how to improve /r/conspiracy?
1 Doc---Hopper 2013-12-01
No need for this. Why aren't I a mod? The current mods are so out of touch with the people.
1 monkeyhear 2013-12-01
so you're admitting that Mods genuinely reflect the opinion of Reddit? dangerous move, treasonous activity will be monitored.
0 mr_dong 2013-12-01
The idea behind this post is to put it to the community. We want to be fair and the moderator team discussed this idea before solidwhetstone made the post.
We want to be as open as possible but at the same time we do not want /r/conspiracy to become a moderator shit-slinging forum.
We have no control over how other moderators choose to act in their active subs, calling for bans here is a difficult thing for us to handle - rule 10.
This is a difficult subject, the mod team here are not reddit police and we have no say in how other subs are managed.
8 AssuredlyAThrowAway 2013-12-01
Perhaps you may want to consider the exponential increase in mod related censorship in major subs over the past few months before attempting to manipulate the free flow of content in this sub to appease some admin who pm'd you.
-3 mr_dong 2013-12-01
No admin has pm'd me. My comment here is honest and this idea isn't set in stone. We want community feedback and we will listen to it.
7 AssuredlyAThrowAway 2013-12-01
As much as I want to believe you, I think that when something like the reporting of censorship (mush akin to what was occurring on /r/conspiracy) starts to threaten reddit inc these type of mod posts is what tends to happen.
3 ugdr6424 2013-12-01
Which mod was PM'd and from who?
2 klmd 2013-12-01
If you are not the cops, then stop acting like one. ASK people before you do something like this.
0 [deleted] 2013-12-01
add badcopspam badleft-rightspam and badmemespam to the list and this place would improve by several lightyears...
-2 Amos_Quito 2013-12-01
I can think of at least one...
EDIT: That was inappropriate. Retracted.
1 solidwhetstone 2013-12-01
Thanks! I will sidebar this! Very cool.