i feel as if in the past few months there has been a sharp decline in quality of content and comments. its really frustrating. As superconducter said, its happening in every sub, for the simple reason that reddit's carrying capacity has been reached. It has been overloaded by private interests, its apparent through the consistent censorship of the more mainstream subs. If there is a better alternative to what was once happening here, someone please let me know.

GLP by-far has the most intelligent community I've visited. But you have to look past the BS posters and learn to discern content because there is no up/down voting on posts.

I'll look into it, thanks. I have visited ATS as well but the discussions just seem so disconnected and indecipherable.

It happens on every sub I've been to.

We've been getting a little bit too much moderation IMO. I complain of the opposite problem.

It seems that such is the general mindset of a lot of people on the internet nowadays, unfortunately...at least such seems to be the case on Reddit. It perhaps is an indication of the general low level of intellectual acumen in the general population.

I quite agree.

Notice how these trolls like Trax just pop up within minutes of me posting. These conspiratard trolls have become extremely effective at killing all reasonable conversation here.

The mods are protecting these trolls too. They constantly make false allegations of racism and especially hound peoplet hat are critical of Zionism.

It's moderate.

I just want the anti-Jew/Israel brigade to leave.

Don't hold your breath for that to happen. Israel deserves all the criticism it gets and more.

I agree that it does. But the constant anti-jew ramblings that amount to nothing more than anti semitism is kinda off putting. I agree that it is a shit nation run in a horrible fashion and that apartheid is alive and well in it, but the conspiratard folks that come over and do the anti semetic stuff is frustrating.

[deleted]

I am not saying pointing out the flaws in israel is anti semitic. There is a difference between pointing out the flaws in israel and a statement like "The jews are using their unearned wealth to take over media." One is racist, the other is a criticism of the government of Israel, which I am all for, because I hate their policies and what they pass off as International Policy.

How is it racist to say that a group has undue influence over something?

If Mormons had an outsized role in U.S. foreign policy would it be racist to note this? To complain about it?

If Scientologists has a substantially outsized role in the media is it bigoted to note this or complain about it?

You are falling victim to false claims of "racism" (and it's a bit of a red flag you equate anti Jewish bigotry with "racism"). If anything, this privileged status that makes any criticism of Israeli or Jewish influence is bigoted behavior in and of itself.

Its the, sometimes common, throwing around of the word kyke, or heeb, etc etc.

Okay, I barely recall seeing any comments like this, and the few I remember seeing were done by people from conspiratard.

But making comments about the outsized Jewish role in the media is not anti Jewish bigotry per se.

I didn't say it was... I said calling them kykes or heebs while you do it, is. And I DID say that it was usually an asshole from conspiratard doing it, as well.

Agreed, the blatant anti semetic stuff is un-called for. That said, Israel enjoys lumping that with criticism of itself together to confuse everyone and possibly escape the barbs.

But I do not lump it together. Hating on israel because they are shitty and do some terrible things ISNT the same. I wasnt saying it was by any means.

No worries. I wasn't meaning to imply that you were.

Well, you'd be the first.

What "constant" anti Jew ramblings? What I see are a slew of false allegations like the ones Squackula are making.

The other very rare anti Jew ramblings have been made by people like BipolarBear who is Jewish himself and is engaging in black propaganda to make this sub appear racist. It does not enjoy widespread support like bigoted comments at conspiratard enjoy.

Notice how these types of comments get users that come out of the woodwork (likely from conspiratard) to agree with the false claim this sub is racist.

That is why i said that it was there fault. What I considered wrong, was that I rarely ever see anyone saying that it is wrong and isn't what any of us want. I rarely see that in the comments section.

Don't hold your breath for that to happen

Sadly, I know. The fact that it continues is quite the red flag.

I don't think its by any accident most meaningful threads get derailed with anti jewish ramblings and that this sub becomes flooded with those kinds of posts when significant conspiracies become apparent in the news.

[deleted]

What are you talking about?

A user was wrongly banned the other day for being "racist" (i.e. anti Jewish) when it clearly was not a racist comment.

This is a false concern and you're likely trolling. We're infested here with pro Israel propagandists who make false accusations like you are making.

You're making the same false argument BipolarBear makes and trying to falsely label this sub racist.

Hell, this whole sub was banned from bestof for a totally reasonable comment about Israel.

The problem is the opposite of what you claim. The problem is the pro Israel bias.

You're one of the worst anti-Jew anti-Israel posters here. I've seen you casually throw around the terms "Zionist" and "Holohoax". Your racism is ridiculously transparent, it practically bleeds out of you. 99.9 percent of posters on Reddit would find your views repellent. Hell, I'd bet 99% of /r/conspiracy posters would just as soon you leave.

Please. I am far from racist. You're a conspiratard propagandist like so many other trolls here.

You and your troll friends spend all your time on this sub alleging the sub is racist.

How is the term Zionist "racist"? How is questioning the history of WWII racist? Is Norman Finkelstein "racist" when he says there is a Holocaust Industry?

You and your propagandist friends are trying to kill one of the few places where we can discuss the Holocaust and WWII without charges of racism.

Please. I am far from racist.

Sure you are.

Post your views on the Holocaust in any sub other than this one and see what kind of reception you get. Make sure you use the disgusting "Holohoax" term when you do.

You and your troll friends spend all your time on this sub alleging the sub is racist.

Nope, I just happen to notice that every time I stumble across a post of yours here, its criticizing Israel, or spewing some ridiculous Holocaust denial BS, or calling everyone you disagree with a "Zionist".

Go ahead, post a thread in any other sub airing your views on the Holocaust and calling people Zionists and see how many times you get labelled a racist.

You and your propagandist friends

"Propogandist"? Tell you what dickhead, go through my entire posting history and find every pro Israel or pro Jewish post I've ever made. I have THOUSANDS of posts for you to go through.

Sure you are.

I most assuredly am not racist. Nor am I anti Jewish. Based on the comments I've seen you make I am less bigoted than you are.

You don't like that I question official stories like 9/11, the JFK assassination, and the Holocaust so you try to tar me with names.

Post your views on the Holocaust in any sub other than this one and see what kind of reception you get.

This reception in the general public is a result of massive propaganda blowhards and fascists like you have created.

Your fascist friends literally put people in jail for not agreeing with the official story. The German people were literally "re-educated" and forced to accept the official story on pain of imprisonment and loss of livelihood. Your nutter friends issue death threats to the prominent revisionists like Jewish revisionist David Cole and David Irving.

You and your nutter trolls mod and brigade most of the other subs on this site to make sure your propaganda is enforced. There is probably no other issue where you and dozens of your friends (with multipiple accounts) will appear out of the woodwork to attack.

For instance, your nutter friends got a reasonable comment critical of Israel censored from bestof and got all of conspiracy banned because this was "racist."

It's a false reality you are imposing. I'm glad we have at least one place where honest inquiry can (sort of) go on. Yet you trolls are doing your best to disrupt this place.

Hell, you successfully ran off Amos_Quitos and MaxActivist making the same allegations and now you trolls are stalking me.

Based on the comments I've seen you make I am less bigoted than you are.

Quote a single bigoted comment I've ever made.

I see you balk at my suggestion to post your Holocaust denial stuff in another sub.

I see you also balk at finding all the pro Jewish posts I've made...you know...since I'm such a "propogandist". Ooops...maybe you're just a tin foil hat wearing racist fucking moron.

You know that 99.9% of people on the planet would find your views repellent, don't you? It has nothing to do with "propogandists", it's because you are actually a Jew hating racist.

One, I'm not a "Holocaust denier." I agree Jews were abused and murdered during WWII you liar.

you're just a tin foil hat wearing wearing racist fucking moron.

Nice. Another name calling rant that is a lie.

Go stalk someone else.

I am not afraid to post my questions about the Holocaust and WWII in other subs even though you propagandists will pounce. I've done it before. I don't care about my internet points. I care about the truth. It's you trolls that spend all your time propagandizing and trying to influence opinion by gaming this site that are focused on voting.

That's why I have you trolls following me around hounding me.

You know that 99.9% of people on the planet would find your views repellent, don't you?

That's not true at all. Again, a false version of history was imposed on most of the Western world. This is true of almost all history. I am skeptical of all history written by victors. I'm skeptical of much of U.S. history.

I find that people find me very reasonable when I meet them in person or have the chance to discuss issues with them. It's you that is trying to make me a pariah just for asking questions.

You're proving OP's point that instead of sticking to the facts and debating a particular theory or historical event you're shouting someone down and making false allegations of racism.

Edit: spelling

I am not afraid to post my questions about the Holocaust and WWII in other subs even though you propagandists will pounce.

By "propogandists" you mean most of the general population, right? Walk around on the street and use the term "Holohoax" and "Zionist" while denying that Auschwitz was a death camp. See how many people call you a racist or an anti-semite.

If 99% of people think you're a racist for the views you hold, maybe the problem isn't with THEM. Maybe the problem is with YOU.

Again, a false version of history was imposed on most of the Western world.

Typical Holocaust denier BS. Thousands of surviving witnesses were wrong. Every Nazi that admitted to participating in the Holocaust was intimidated or threatened. Every one of the thousands of documents related to the Holocaust was forged. Every one of the hundreds of historians who meticulously studied the historical records was a co-conspirator.

If 99% of people think you're a racist for the views you hold

No one I know thinks I'm a racist. I'm far from it.

The only people that accuse me of such are internet conspiratard warriors like yourself.

I bet people that would see your bullying IRL would be appalled at your behavior and would find me to be reasonable.

And no, I don't go around talking about the Holocaust. Just like I don't go around talking about conspiracies like 9/11 or Sandy Hook and Boston hoax theories. These theories are too shocking for most people.

But I'm not afraid to discuss these issues. And I don't know the full truth and admit what I don't know and admit I could be wrong about things. But I try to treat people with respect so I don't get into shouting matches like you conspiratards do with me here.

Again. The fact you can't discuss these issues reasonably shows you don't have the facts on your side. You have to label the other side "racist" and try to get others to ignore them to win the argument. This is an indication your arguments are weak.

No one I know thinks I'm a racist.

And the reason for this is...

no, I don't go around talking about the Holocaust

If you brought up your views in a room full of average people, using the same language you use here ("Holohoax", "Zionist", etc), every single one of them would think you were a disgusting anti-semetic racist piece of garbage.

No one I know thinks I'm a racist.

And the reason for this is...

I'm not a racist and don't use racist language.

If you brought up your views in a room full of average people, using the same language you use here ("Holohoax", "Zionist", etc), every single one of them would think you were a disgusting anti-semetic racist piece of garbage.

I used "holohoax" tongue in cheek in one of my many comments on the subject (which you have obviously combed through) because I was getting hounded by a conspiratard like you and who refused to hear that I rejected the term Holocaust denier. I can't even remember the exact context but I did not intend that all of the "Holocaust" was a hoax. I only stated the case for homicidal gas chambers has not been proved--I accept other instances of murder took place. So yes, some people did perpetrate a hoax in this limited respect.

I don't think the term "Holocaust" should have ever been adopted to describe Jewish suffering during WWII and it was adopted well after WWII so that people like you could use it as a weapon and support what Norman Finkelstein has described as the Holocaust Industry.

I specifically admit that Jews were murdered and abused during WWII. They suffered simply because of their religion and ethnic background. Just as Japanese Americans suffered.

Zionist is an acceptable term that I will gladly use in polite company. I have both Arab friends and Israeli and Jewish friends. Hell, I know an Arab who is married to a Jew. I treat all people with respect.

Yes, I am more free to discuss issues on this sub and other alternative sites than I am IRL. But this is a good thing. Israel and Zionism is a taboo subject because propagandists like you have successfully made it a taboo subject and have created a privileged status for Jews when discussing these matters. This standard in America is actually a racist standard as people like Atlas Shrugged and Neocons get away with all sorts of racism directed at Arabs yet any criticism of Zionism is falsely conflated with "racism" by propagandists and liars like you.

Israel and Zionism is a taboo subject because propagandists like you

"Propogandists" like me, hey? How many pro Israel pro Jewish posts have I ever made? How many Jewish related subs do I post to?

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. In your deluded brain, anyone that finds your denial of well established Holocaust facts anti-semetic simply MUST be a "propogandist" for the Jews.

Like I said, you're a racist.

Like I said, you're a racist.

Yeah, you keep saying that but nothing I said is "racist," nor is it anti Jewish.

I'm not going to go through your history with a fine tooth comb (like you did mine) but I know you post on conspiratard and you've partaken in their circle jerks about alleged anti Jewish "racism." You also spend all your time on this sub debunking conspiracies.

You are stalking me (like your other conspiratard friends) so that you comment within minutes on this post after I did . . . even though you hadn't commented in this post before I did and it's a few days old and has zero net upvotes. It must be a huge coincidence that a number of conpsiratard trolls stalk me on this subject, eh?

Yeah, you keep saying that but nothing I said is "racist," nor is it anti Jewish.

"Holohoax"

That's not racist or anti Jewish.

I'm stating that there is not sufficient proof of homicidal gas chambers. Some people lied about this and thus committed a hoax on this particular issue. There is proof of other crimes and abuses committed against Jews. Thus, only one limited part of the "Holocaust" is a hoax while I support other facts about the "Holocaust."

I used the term "Holohoax" tongue in cheek because one of the many conspiratards attacking me kept calling me "Nazi apologist" and "Holocaust denier" after I had specifically said I reject the term "Holocaust denier." The very term "Holocaust" is a loaded term that is not helpful.

Is David Cole anti Jewish for making the same claims? Indeed, he said he did so to benefit Jews because the truth is more helpful than perpetrating lies.

And get out of here you're not a propagandist. You pounced on my comments within minutes and have combed through my dozens of comments on the subject. You and your conspiratard friends have a primary mission of running interference on this very issue . . . and the proof is the half dozen or so trolls hounding me (just as they did other users on this sub on this same subject).

I had specifically said I reject the term "Holocaust denier

Most Holocaust deniers do.

Key elements of Holocaust denial: "Before discussing how Holocaust denial constitutes a conspiracy theory, and how the theory is distinctly American, it is important to understand what is meant by the term "Holocaust denial." Holocaust deniers, or "revisionists," as they call themselves, question all three major points of definition of the Nazi Holocaust. First, they contend that, while mass murders of Jews did occur (although they dispute both the intentionality of such murders as well as the supposed deservedness of these killings), there was no official Nazi policy to murder Jews. Second, and perhaps most prominently, they contend that there were no homicidal gas chambers, particularly at Auschwitz-Birkenau, where mainstream historians believe over 1 million Jews were murdered, primarily in gas chambers. And third, Holocaust deniers contend that the death toll of European Jews during World War II was well below 6 million. Deniers float numbers anywhere between 300,000 and 1.5 million, as a general rule." Mathis, Andrew E. Holocaust Denial, a Definition, The Holocaust History Project, July 2, 2004. Retrieved December 18, 2006.

Holocaust deniers generally do not accept the term denial as an appropriate description of their activities, and use the term revisionism instead.[6] Scholars use the term "denial" to differentiate Holocaust deniers from historical revisionists, who use established historical methodologies

And hey, you're the second Conspiratad troll to post the same bullshit.

I am not interested in "denying" facts . . . I am interested in historical fact and use established historical methodologies to form my opinion. And I do not claim to have absolute certainty . . . under the circumstances there was a lot of false propaganda and the victors imposed their version of history via force and there is a lot we will never know.

You propagandists throw around the term "Holocaust Denier" and "racist" to shut down inquiry and debate. If anyone is engaging in denial behavior it is someone who uses these tactics rather than accepted methods of debate--you know, counter an argument with a fact or argument rather than an ad hominem attack.

I'm open to the argument that homicidal gas chambers were used but the evidence does not support this claim and your side has not met the burden of proof. The Soviets made a mock chamber to "prove" one existed and used confessions gained from torture. The primary documents don't prove homicidal gassings occurred and the forensic evidence likewise doesn't support homicidal gas chambers.

This is reasonable interpretation of the most important facts. I'm willing to change my mind if you present better evidence.

In response to these argument you sling ad hominems and make appeals to authority (most historians are not going to risk jail or career suicide by entertaining revisionist arguments). The mere fact your side has to literally jail historians who don't support your side is a strong indication the truth is not on your side.

You propagandists

There's that term again..."propogandist"...it's like your crutch. Anyone who disagrees with your ridiculous revisionist history must be doing it dishonestly, right? As though your position is so foolproof it must be immune to honest criticism.

What's you answer for the hundreds of witness accounts from both victims AND murderers supporting the existence of gas chambers? The thousands upon thousands of documents in the official record supporting their existence? Aerial photographs of mass body burnings at Auschwitz?

Anyone who disagrees with your ridiculous revisionist history must be doing it dishonestly, right?

Not at all. But conspiratard trolls that pounce on my comments minutes after I posted, like you did (you weren't even on this days old thread before I commented) and who have painstakingly gone through my comment history on the Holocaust, and who are joining a whole brigade of other like minded trolls from conspiratard, are most likely propagandists. Running interference on this and similar issues is a priority for you conspiratard propaganda trolls. You guys even make light of it how you're Zionist warriors or JIDF warriors, etc.

What's you answer for the hundreds of witness accounts from both victims AND murderers supporting the existence of gas chambers?

There aren't hundreds of accounts from "murderers" supporting the homicidal gas chamber claim. A few people like Hoss were tortured into giving contradictory and unlikely testimony that is obviously fabricated. Other German defendants at the show trials didn't bother defending the German state from these claims because they were concerned with defending themselves; they would say they weren't involved with or didn't see any gas chambers while there may have been gas chambers elsewhere.

And actually there were few Jewish prisoners who actually saw gas chambers. The best witnesses are the Jewish prisoners who allegedly collaborated with the Germans by running the gas chambers but their stories are not believable.

Also, there have been ground radar and there is no physical evidence of mas body burnings at Auschwitz. There were crematoria there as there was a Typhus outbreak and many people did die . . . around 150,000 according to German and Red Cross records. So the Germans disposed of these bodies by burning. But there have never been evidence found of large scale body burning in open pits even though forensic tests have been done.

And there is no thousands and thousands of documents in the official record supporting homicidal gas chambers. Quite the opposite. To get around this uncomfortable fact (because the Germans kept great records for everything else and they didn't appear to hide other facts of their treatment toward Jews) the official story is there was a secret oral order and nothing was put in documents.

Hoss, Josef Klehr, Pery Broad, Johann Kremer, Oskar Gröning, Oswald Kaduk, Richard Böch, Hans Münch, Karl Jeschke...

There are dozens upon dozens of Sonderkommando witness accounts of gassings. Slomo Venezia, Henryk Mandelbaum, Henryk Tauber, Filip Müller, Daniel Bennahmias, and on and on.

Notice that skeptics and people that hang out on conspiratard like Trax get to call me names like "dickhead" and "racist" and stalk me yet they never get banned.

And yet the people they stalk are hounded and nitpicked and falsely accused of racism and kicked off this sub.

And yet this sub is still "racist" even though these same conspiratard trolls have been caught making fake anti Jewish black propaganda posts here.

And they clearly brigade and stalk users here.

So a user being wrongly banned for being anti-Jewish is a problem for you? That in itself is telling. You would rather have yet another anti-Jewish poster stinking this place up?

This is a false concern and you're likely trolling. We're infested here with pro Israel propagandists who make false accusations like you are making.

Nice attempt at reverse psychology. So by your assertion, we need more anti-Israel posts? We have more than enough of those here.

this whole sub was banned from bestof for a totally reasonable comment about Israel.

Good for bestof, at least someone is sick of that shit.

We get it, Israel is responsible for all of the evils of the planet Earth. Do you guys really have to saturate the sub with it? There are other subs that would take less forcing of opinion, namely the white power subs. Try going there, they'd probably give you gold.

Talk about reverse psychology.

The most popular post on bestof is a description of racism the user saw in Israel and this should be removed because it's racist?

And they should not post this most upvoted comment in a main sub (bestof), but in a white power sub instead?

No criticism of Israel should be allowed in a main sub. Got it. It belongs in racist subs. Got it.

Give me a break.

So a user being wrongly banned for being anti-Jewish is a problem for you?

Yes, because he wasn't being anti-Jewish. That's why it was wrong to ban him. He made a comment that people like Norman Finkelstein make--that Jews are the squeaky wheels that get the grease when it comes to WWII. That is not anti Jewish anymore than cricizing Israel is anti Jewish.

You guys allege racism to silence your critics. It's ridiculous that bestof if falling for the ploy but even worse that your trolling is allowed here.

your trolling

Pointing out your hatred is hardly "trolling". You repeatedly dodge any questions raised as to your blatantly racist attitudes, be they mine or another user's, and you're still not getting it.

No criticism of Israel should be allowed in a main sub. Got it. It belongs in racist subs. Got it.

This is the most lucid thing you have probably ever posted. It's the hate and intolerance such as yours that prevent progress.

Repeatedly falsely accusing someone of racism and coming to this sub to spread such garbage is indeed trolling. Especially when done as part of a group of conspiratard trolls whose main purpose on reddit is to make such unfounded allegations.

Thank you for admitting that any criticism of Israel is ipso facto proof of racism in your sick mind.

falsely accusing someone of racism

Unless the accused is you.

criticism of Israel

See, you just can't stop yourself. And criticism is fine, even healthy, but to your kind it's an obsession that outs you as racist. You really need to be more subversive about your racism.

I see I have a gang of conspitard trolls that are going to hound me here falsely accusing me of racism. You guys are relentless trolls. It's a real shame you are allowed to disrupt this sub.

You prove OP's point. You conspiratard trolls should be banned from here.

And criticism is fine, even healthy, but to your kind it's an obsession that outs you as racist.

My kind? You mean the entire conspiracy sub? The conspiracy user who had his post removed didn't seem unduly focused on Israel. He was being totally reasonable and describing his experience visiting Israel. His post was promoted by all of bestof. And then all of conspiracy was collectively punished and you conspiratard trolls were jumping for joy because his description of the racism he saw exhibited by Israeis was turned by you trolls into racism against Jews.

Why are the mods allowing these conspiratard trolls to come here and shout people down that any criticism of Israel is racist and hound users here for being "racist?"

And you are not using the word 'subversive' correctly.

My kind? You mean the entire conspiracy sub?

Generalizing. How astute. Pulling the whole sub into the gravitas of the hate brigade won't win you any friends.

Why are the mods allowing these conspiratard trolls to come here and shout people down that any criticism of Israel is racist and hound users here for being "racist?"

Good question. The fact that your kind still post here with your poison is a mystery.

So you are questioning terminology. Let's see, you incorrectly throw "you conspiratard trolls" repeatedly at people who call out your racism, as if it will deflect from your subjective hate.

The conspiracy user who had his post removed didn't seem unduly focused on Israel

You obviously caught that, so take a clue. Why am I not shocked that you are drawn to a post that somehow finds fault with Israel?

you are not using the word 'subversive' correctly

OK, Rhodes Scholar, I'll spell it out for you. Be less obvious about being a racist bastard.

Be less obvious about being a racist bastard.

Once again a conspirtard troll is allowed to rampage here calling users "bastards" and falsely allege racism. You're an obvious troll and if we had mods that cared about this sub 'your kind' (conspiratard trolls) would be banned.

you incorrectly throw "you conspiratard trolls" repeatedly at people who call out your racism, as if it will deflect from your subjective hate.

You are from the hate brigade. You and your conspiratard troll friends do nothing but hate. I do not hate and I certainly am not racist nor am I anti Jewish. You keep saying that because you are a troll. Your kind, the trolls from conspiratard, come here to mock this sub and indeed you call this whole sub racist. So it's you that is generalizing.

Why am I not shocked that you are drawn to a post that somehow finds fault with Israel?

I, like others on this sub, was mostly drawn to the fact that you conspiratard trolls falsely claimed the post was racist and that the mods of bestof not only censored the post but collectively punished all of conspiracy for the post by banning us from appearing on bestof*. And you conspiratard trolls are jumping for glee and now coming here and attacking users here for being racist.

This is a conspiracy sub and we should be able to discuss Zionism and even question the Holocaust, just like we do 9/11 or the JFK assassination. This is not racism, it is skepticism.

This is a conspiracy sub and we should be able to discuss Zionism and even question the Holocaust

Ahhh you admitted it. You're really bad at hiding your holocaust denial, you should ask that amos_quito guy for tips.

and hey you didn't respond to our other argument where you were blatantly saying that gas chambers didn't exist in the holocaust and then linked to anti-semitic websites with links to holocaust denial and neo nazi organisations.

Asking questions about the Holocaust is not denying it. You're a one trick pony.

I started a reply to you but deleted it. There is plenty of evidence to rebut it but I'm done arguing with trolls.

The website is not neo nazi and again most people on that site acknowledge crimes were committed against Jews but question certain aspects of the Holocaust . . . like the alleged homicidal gas chambers.

Well I don't have much opinion either way here, but I've met in real life, a holocaust survivor, who had survived a gas chamber. That definitely happened...

That seems highly improbable. How did they survive the gas? How did the Sonderkommandos not see them alive?

Just because someone told you this does not make it real.

The only other claim of this happening I've seen are from Irene Zisblatt, as seen here, and she is not believable for a number of reasons.

I mean I'm not going to argue the possibility that she was lying. I have no way of proving it, obviously. Just relaying what was expressed directly to me from a supposed primary source. I can't imagine what benefit there would be to lying. This women's family was not Jewish, but her family harbored Jews and a result was lopped in with the rest of the Jews.

conspirtard troll

Can you please use this phrase more? I don't think you've thrown it about quite enough. If ever a sign of desperation reared its head, this is it.

Again, bestof came to its senses and was done with you because of your broken-record rhetoric, and I can't say as I blame them for it.

Based on your petty attempts to defend yourself against the truth (not your version, the actual truth), you are also probably a Holocaust denier as well.

Unlike the names you throw at me, 'conspiratard troll' is a shoe that fits you and your troll brigade.

The fact you think a collective ban of this sub on /r/bestof for one person's comment about his experience in Israel is proof of your bad intentions on this sub.

It was ridiculous to censor that post that was the most upvoted post on /r/bestof. And it's even worse to collectively punish 200,000 people for this imagined slight. In fact, it's exactly the type of Zionist behavior that so many people find racist--when Israel collectively punishes the Palestinian people (including children and civilians) for the actions of a few militants it shows it views Arabs as subhumans.

Bold letters! You must be serious (or really butthurt, I'm guessing the latter).

Since you're so serious and forthcoming, explain your way out of this. These are your words Mr. Bold:

"And actually there were few Jewish prisoners who actually saw gas chambers. The best witnesses are the Jewish prisoners who allegedly collaborated with the Germans by running the gas chambers but their stories are not believable."

Are you serious? Or just off your meds? How can anyone take you seriously for typing that? Except of course, the other deluded racists. Your version of history might work in the psych ward, but to those of us who know better, it's sad.

Yes. I've actually reviewed the testimony. Most prisoners didn't have direct evidence of the gas chambers . . . because according to the official story those that would have been such witnesses were killed.

The Sonderkammandos would be the best (most important) witnesses to support the gassing story as they obviously had a reason to view the operations and live (they allegedly collaborated with the Germans by helping with the gassing and cremation operations). But this testimony is dubious, at best.

I prepared a lengthier response to your conspiratard troll buddy but erased it because it's pointless arguing with trolls and I would rather save this for a legitimate debate partner, but here are 3 videos that show some interviews with these witnesses and show the unreliability of both the German and Jewish witnesses:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Vsrghf_t5Q (showing how the German "confessions" are contradictory and implausible--there are many other sources that show how German confessions are dubious--I went through the Hoss confession in part earlier)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyMVWVBmGVo (showing implausible claims from a survivor--including surviving from inside a chamber)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-Kl6RHKIQk (showing extensive interviewswith Dario Gabbai a Sonderkommando that contains implausible claims)

Sad. Just sad that you would defend this assertion that Jews collaborated with their captors. Find your meds. Take them. Or refuse, and provide the rest of us with more deluded entertainment.

It's not my assertion. It's what they said they did! They evidently told thousands of innocent people to march into a room for their "showers" and didn't warn them they were about to be murdered. They collaborated in murder. If you can believe them.

Actually, they are most likely lying about their activities because it's not believable that the Germans would trust a few Jewish prisoners to do this and only have a couple German guards. And their description of the logistics is just not believable.

They packed people like sardines into a room, that was literally so crowded they couldn't fall down when dead, but these people thought they were really going to get showers? They didn't revolt? And the doors used to secure the rooms were super flimsy? And these thousands of people filed through single doors and the few Sonderkommandos used "hooks" to pick up the bodies and put them on flimsy carts and were able to move thousands of people a day (can you imagine how difficult this task was?). And they went in after the gassings and didn't use protection even though they likely would have been poisoned themselves if they really did it that way (not to mention the rooms were not adequately ventilated so they and the Germans living nearby would have been poisoned as well).

And their description of the crematorium process is totally not believable. There is no way that many bodies could have been processed in the way they describe. They give ridiculous times for how long it took to incinerate a body and even then it doesn't add up.

They packed people like sardines into a room, that was literally so crowded they couldn't fall down when dead, but these people thought they were really going to get showers?

Did they? Or did they just have no control over their situation after being rounded up like dogs and imprisoned by armed and armoured soldiers?

They didn't revolt?

You are saying is unarmed prisoners don't revolt against their captors, they are somehow culpable?

And the doors used to secure the rooms were super flimsy?

Proof? I would imagine they would have an armed guard on the other site who would check through the window to see if they'd all died or not before opening the door. What evidence makes you think they could break out without retribution?

And these thousands of people filed through single doors and the few Sonderkommandos used "hooks" to pick up the bodies and put them on flimsy carts and were able to move thousands of people a day (can you imagine how difficult this task was?). And they went in after the gassings and didn't use protection even though they likely would have been poisoned themselves if they really did it that way (not to mention the rooms were not adequately ventilated so they and the Germans living nearby would have been poisoned as well).

I would imagine they started the gas after they left the room, not while they were bringing the Jews in. Do you have a source that the rooms were not adequately ventilated that is not from an organisation that has links to neo-nazis?

You know Hitler made several quotes about his determination to eliminate the jews right? Why do you think he was lying?

And their description of the crematorium process is totally not believable. There is no way that many bodies could have been processed in the way they describe.

Proof? Have you not seen the pictures? This seems like a very easy thing to say ...

They give ridiculous times for how long it took to incinerate a body and even then it doesn't add up.

How is this evidence that the holocaust was not as bad as people say and the Jews are lying, as your argument seems to suggest? Do you have some evidence of how long it takes to burn a body and how long they claimed it took?

Boy, you sure are gullible.

A couple thousand people packed like sardines are going to stay locked inside a room when poison gas is thrown in because a couple guards are outside. Sure buddy. That makes sense. No way these people instinctively panic and push against the doors and windows.

And fuck you with your demand for proof and then refusal to look at said proof. According to your definition any attempt to prove the official Holocaust story wrong in any way is anti semitism so you've set up a nice little Catch 22. You must think you're really clever. You just adopted this trick from places like the ADL.

You refuse to consider revisionists history then say it hasn't been proved. So you are obviously a bad faith troll.

You won't even watch an interview with one of the leading Holocaust historians on your side where he discusses issues like the doors on the alleged gas chambers. Unfortunately, only "anti semites" (according to your sick mind) like Jew David Cole are asking these questions and he was able to ask Dr. Piper these questions only because he is a Jew and was insistent on getting answers and ignored propaganda trolls like you. It eventually became too much for him (just like with other revisionist historians like David Irving) who had their lives threatened and their liberty taken away so they finally stopped asking questions.

I would imagine they started the gas after they left the room, not while they were bringing the Jews in. Do you have a source that the rooms were not adequately ventilated that is not from an organisation that has links to neo-nazis?

The Leuchter Report goes into detail about this, but once again it's going to fall victim to your catch 22; you won't consider revisionist evidence because by your definition revisionism is anti semitism and therefore the revisionist case wasn't proved.

Also, it's the gas that would still linger after the gassing and when they were handling the bodies that would poison the sonderkommandos.

Anyway, the burden of proof is on your side. Do you have any evidence the mock up the Soviets built is accurate? You prove the ventilation they allege is feasible. You do know they built a chimney that isn't even connected to the gas chamber? As in totally fake? I don't need a degree in physics to know this is no proof of a homicidal gas chamber.

Proof? Have you not seen the pictures? This seems like a very easy thing to say ...

Of course I've seen the pictures of the crematorium. The few that exist. And do you see how improbable it is that the Sonderkommandos claim to have stacked 3 or 4 bodies at a time in there? Have you even looked at the evidence that shows the impossibility of burning a million people at Auschwitz? Oh yeah, you have a catch 22 that you won't look at the evidence and therefore in your great logical mind it's never been proved.

You know Hitler made several quotes about his determination to eliminate the jews right? Why do you think he was lying?

Where's the documentation of Hitler's plan? Hitler definitely was anti Jewish and he wanted to expel the Jews from Germany. This is why he partnered with the Zionists to force Jews to emigrate to Palestine until Hitler stopped cooperating with the Zionists in the early 1940s.

Agreed. Having to pick through all of the racial crap to find good material is a real bitch. Meanwhile, relevant stories are falling further into the shadows because GASP! look what the evil Jews are up to!

Sure you are.

I most assuredly am not racist. Nor am I anti Jewish. Based on the comments I've seen you make I am less bigoted than you are.

You don't like that I question official stories like 9/11, the JFK assassination, and the Holocaust so you try to tar me with names.

Post your views on the Holocaust in any sub other than this one and see what kind of reception you get.

This reception in the general public is a result of massive propaganda blowhards and fascists like you have created.

Your fascist friends literally put people in jail for not agreeing with the official story. The German people were literally "re-educated" and forced to accept the official story on pain of imprisonment and loss of livelihood. Your nutter friends issue death threats to the prominent revisionists like Jewish revisionist David Cole and David Irving.

You and your nutter trolls mod and brigade most of the other subs on this site to make sure your propaganda is enforced. There is probably no other issue where you and dozens of your friends (with multipiple accounts) will appear out of the woodwork to attack.

For instance, your nutter friends got a reasonable comment critical of Israel censored from bestof and got all of conspiracy banned because this was "racist."

It's a false reality you are imposing. I'm glad we have at least one place where honest inquiry can (sort of) go on. Yet you trolls are doing your best to disrupt this place.

Hell, you successfully ran off Amos_Quitos and MaxActivist making the same allegations and now you trolls are stalking me.

Notice that skeptics and people that hang out on conspiratard like Trax get to call me names like "dickhead" and "racist" and stalk me yet they never get banned.

And yet the people they stalk are hounded and nitpicked and falsely accused of racism and kicked off this sub.

And yet this sub is still "racist" even though these same conspiratard trolls have been caught making fake anti Jewish black propaganda posts here.

And they clearly brigade and stalk users here.

One, I'm not a "Holocaust denier." I agree Jews were abused and murdered during WWII you liar.

you're just a tin foil hat wearing wearing racist fucking moron.

Nice. Another name calling rant that is a lie.

Go stalk someone else.

I am not afraid to post my questions about the Holocaust and WWII in other subs even though you propagandists will pounce. I've done it before. I don't care about my internet points. I care about the truth. It's you trolls that spend all your time propagandizing and trying to influence opinion by gaming this site that are focused on voting.

That's why I have you trolls following me around hounding me.

You know that 99.9% of people on the planet would find your views repellent, don't you?

That's not true at all. Again, a false version of history was imposed on most of the Western world. This is true of almost all history. I am skeptical of all history written by victors. I'm skeptical of much of U.S. history.

I find that people find me very reasonable when I meet them in person or have the chance to discuss issues with them. It's you that is trying to make me a pariah just for asking questions.

You're proving OP's point that instead of sticking to the facts and debating a particular theory or historical event you're shouting someone down and making false allegations of racism.

Edit: spelling

Anyone who disagrees with your ridiculous revisionist history must be doing it dishonestly, right?

Not at all. But conspiratard trolls that pounce on my comments minutes after I posted, like you did (you weren't even on this days old thread before I commented) and who have painstakingly gone through my comment history on the Holocaust, and who are joining a whole brigade of other like minded trolls from conspiratard, are most likely propagandists. Running interference on this and similar issues is a priority for you conspiratard propaganda trolls. You guys even make light of it how you're Zionist warriors or JIDF warriors, etc.

What's you answer for the hundreds of witness accounts from both victims AND murderers supporting the existence of gas chambers?

There aren't hundreds of accounts from "murderers" supporting the homicidal gas chamber claim. A few people like Hoss were tortured into giving contradictory and unlikely testimony that is obviously fabricated. Other German defendants at the show trials didn't bother defending the German state from these claims because they were concerned with defending themselves; they would say they weren't involved with or didn't see any gas chambers while there may have been gas chambers elsewhere.

And actually there were few Jewish prisoners who actually saw gas chambers. The best witnesses are the Jewish prisoners who allegedly collaborated with the Germans by running the gas chambers but their stories are not believable.

Also, there have been ground radar and there is no physical evidence of mas body burnings at Auschwitz. There were crematoria there as there was a Typhus outbreak and many people did die . . . around 150,000 according to German and Red Cross records. So the Germans disposed of these bodies by burning. But there have never been evidence found of large scale body burning in open pits even though forensic tests have been done.

And there is no thousands and thousands of documents in the official record supporting homicidal gas chambers. Quite the opposite. To get around this uncomfortable fact (because the Germans kept great records for everything else and they didn't appear to hide other facts of their treatment toward Jews) the official story is there was a secret oral order and nothing was put in documents.

This is a conspiracy sub and we should be able to discuss Zionism and even question the Holocaust

Ahhh you admitted it. You're really bad at hiding your holocaust denial, you should ask that amos_quito guy for tips.

and hey you didn't respond to our other argument where you were blatantly saying that gas chambers didn't exist in the holocaust and then linked to anti-semitic websites with links to holocaust denial and neo nazi organisations.

conspirtard troll

Can you please use this phrase more? I don't think you've thrown it about quite enough. If ever a sign of desperation reared its head, this is it.

Again, bestof came to its senses and was done with you because of your broken-record rhetoric, and I can't say as I blame them for it.

Based on your petty attempts to defend yourself against the truth (not your version, the actual truth), you are also probably a Holocaust denier as well.

Sad. Just sad that you would defend this assertion that Jews collaborated with their captors. Find your meds. Take them. Or refuse, and provide the rest of us with more deluded entertainment.

It's not my assertion. It's what they said they did! They evidently told thousands of innocent people to march into a room for their "showers" and didn't warn them they were about to be murdered. They collaborated in murder. If you can believe them.

Actually, they are most likely lying about their activities because it's not believable that the Germans would trust a few Jewish prisoners to do this and only have a couple German guards. And their description of the logistics is just not believable.

They packed people like sardines into a room, that was literally so crowded they couldn't fall down when dead, but these people thought they were really going to get showers? They didn't revolt? And the doors used to secure the rooms were super flimsy? And these thousands of people filed through single doors and the few Sonderkommandos used "hooks" to pick up the bodies and put them on flimsy carts and were able to move thousands of people a day (can you imagine how difficult this task was?). And they went in after the gassings and didn't use protection even though they likely would have been poisoned themselves if they really did it that way (not to mention the rooms were not adequately ventilated so they and the Germans living nearby would have been poisoned as well).

And their description of the crematorium process is totally not believable. There is no way that many bodies could have been processed in the way they describe. They give ridiculous times for how long it took to incinerate a body and even then it doesn't add up.