Thank you for posting this. The original thread was removed from the front page a little bit ago.

4,053 points (57% like it) 15,500 upvotes 11,447 downvotes

• http://www.reddit.com/r/undelete/comments/1wk80t/143751032_and_so_it_begins_the_first_person_to_be/

Reddit's down vote and up vote numbers are "fuzzed".

Edit: here's a primary source from Reddit's official wiki. http://www.reddit.com/wiki/faq#wiki_how_is_a_submission.27s_score_determined.3F

Well... they aren't random. They are based on an algorithm. I know the downvotes aren't real. The more up votes you get the higher ratio of down votes you will receive. And the spread on up and downs is hard to get over 4 thousand.

Actually according to Reddits own wiki the up votes are "fuzzed" as well. http://www.reddit.com/wiki/faq#wiki_how_is_a_submission.27s_score_determined.3F

Yeah, but reading that paragraph, that doesn't sound accurate to my experience at all.

Edit: Ok. Since I continue to get downvotes. I will demonstrate for those that don't see it.

http://i.imgur.com/ZSk4NAZ.png

In the red we have 44,443 'upvotes' in the blue we 40,699 'downvotes.' In the gray we have the difference between the two. The number that is supposed to always be accurate. 3764. Now take a look at the front page of /r/all/top/ or /r/all/hot notice how the magic number hovers between 3-4000 on almost every post, every single day? The number of upvotes gradually goes up through the day by the thousands, but it doesn't matter if the post has 6000 total upvotes or 100,000 upvotes, the downvote differential will virtually always stay in that 3500 range . That is the point of diminishing returns of their algorithm. Now, there are some exceptions and anomalies, I recall the Bill Gates AMA, going up to 18,000 once, I believe someone was probably playing god there, and some do go up higher briefly if they are popular enough. But as far as the number on the left always being accurate. Heh. I thought everyone had this figured out already.

Okay

Edit: well I still think the Reddit Wiki is a more reliable source, but thanks for your contribution.

Reddit's knowledge of their own algorithms trump your "experiences"

Yeah, but reading that paragraph, that doesn't sound accurate to my experience at all.

sorry boss

He was just trying to explain. No need to call him out.

Its just a simple matter of experience vs fact. If the source of the content says it is one way, and your experience differs it is hard to accept. You must recognize your own personal bias, and concede that reddit knows more than you do.

And you subject OP to a rain of criticism which is unnecessarily due.

The total count is real, correct?

The total upvotes? I don't know for sure, but this has always been my assumption/best guess, it does seem accurate.

The link above says that the difference between up votes and downs is the accurate number. But it doesn't take more than simply glancing once at the front page, and using little deductive reasoning to prove that false.

Not the total upvotes. I said total count. The difference between the ups and downs. Total count = adding everything up = total. You add the positive number to the negative number.

No, that wouldn't be accurate at all.

Look at the front page. Whether a post has 40000 upvotes or 6000 upvotes the difference in upvotes and downvotes always magically hovers in the 2-4000 range. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out, and that this is not accurate, but I've already explained how this is done ^ up there.

Click front page, top, all time. There's one with 20,000.

There have some odd and rare anomalies, like the Bill Gates AMA. that stayed 16,000+ day and night, because someone was pushing buttons. It doesn't happen all the time, but if you disagree with the logic I've said feel free to do so.

Shouldn't there be an average range of voting behavior day to day for posts that make it to the front page?

It looks just like this. Pretty much Every. Single. Day. There is no mystery here.

Go here and look. http://www.reddit.com/top/

Notice that regardless of the total votes the difference in the spread is almost always between 3-4000. Everyday. Every single post. With some going higher and then major anomalies from time to time.

The downvotes are almost a TOTAL fabrication... but I'm not going to convince you of that, am I.

Look at the Obama AMA and the one below it. They have an extra digit. The total count on the left seems more accurate than those upvotes being real.

Get out of the anomalies. You aren't going to figure anything out by looking at the anomalies. And what are you talking about on the total count on the left? There is not a total count. There is only things listed are the difference, upvotes and downvotes. By my estimation, the only one that can even have the remote chance of being accurate is the total upvotes.

Total count is upvotes plus downvotes. Like 3 + -4= -1. -1 is the total votes, on the left. I also am claiming the total votes is the accurate number. I thought you were arguing differently. Are you saying the total is accurate, but not exact?

The total is the sum of the up votes and down votes, there are no negative votes. You are not using proper methodology. So when we add the upvotes and the downvotes, each ones are listed there. Say it's 32,000 upvotes and 28,000 downvotes. The total would be 60,000 votes. The number on the left signifies the DIFFERENCE in the votes. so we take 32,000-28,000 = a 4,000 difference. And by no means is the difference accurate, at all.

Can't tell if I'm being trolled or not. The downvotes are a negative, at least to me. That's just my definition of it, but this is extremely off topic.

No. They are not a negative. Why the fuck would they be negative????? You're not exactly a genius, I understand, but holy fuck.

If a post has 3 upvotes and 6 downvotes, it is negative 3. Dumbfuck.

But a total of 9 VOTES were cast. You said total VOTES. Jesus Fucking Christ you are the densest person I've ever met.

TOTAL. That means sum. Add a negative and a positive number of votes and you get the TOTAL votes. You're so fucking stupid you should probably kill yourself.

An upvote and a downvote are both counted as votes. Why the fuck would a downvote be given a negative value? That would mean it never fucking happened? Jesus tapdancing Christ on a cracker you are a dolt.

If I downvote you and one other person does as well, your comment is negative 1. It even says negative 1 right next to the comment. Suck on a tailpipe. You'll be doing us all a favor.

Yeah, but that isn't' a total or sum of the votes. Including mine that would be 3 votes.

http://i.imgur.com/ZSk4NAZ.png

Notice, the red upvotes count 44,443 and the blue is the downvotes 40,699. The gray number is the difference between the two 3764.

The whole point of me saying this is show that the downvotes are not real, that whether there are 50,000 upvotes or or 6,000 upvotes the number of downvotes will magically hover ~3,500 votes beneath this number.

There is no way for me to illustrate this by using your method of counting. Are you with me yet?

The difference of the votes is real. The actual numbers are fuzzed

Yea, that's what I've been trying to say, except some confusion arose because "difference" and "total" means the same exact thing since we are dealing with a negative (downvotes) and a positive (upvotes) number.

I think that may be fuzzed somewhat too - I remember reading something about balancing votes with the number of people on site too, so that you can compare two posts, one from 5 years ago and one from now, and the like/dislike ratio will be accurate, but the numbers not. Essentially to take int account the number of people who have joined reddit. Not sure how true that is or when it kicks in though.

No. They represent the amount of people that clicked the down vote button.

Try this on for size. http://www.dirjournal.com/internet-journal/reddit-weird-behavior/

But how does that, in any way, thwart a spam bot?

I'm not trying to call you out I just never understood that.

[deleted]

Great explanation. Thank you.

I agree with Holo, thank you.

I'm not sure exactly, maybe if a bot was switching accounts spamming scores, it wouldn't matter bc of the difference?

I dont know but while I was researching I found a direct primary source from the Reddit developers. http://www.reddit.com/wiki/faq#wiki_how_is_a_submission.27s_score_determined.3F

PS thank you for being nice

Thank You Conde Nast

Are you aware of another site that these things can be discussed? I am not interested in /pol/.

Challenging in court?

He might have a chance, at least until the NSA plants child porn (or similar) on the judge's computer, after which the outcome will be assured.

Awesome power, don't you think?

I doubt that they need to plant anything. If they have been storing all of his transmissions for x amount of years. Everyone has something that can damage them. Especially when taken out of context.

Good point - and they wouldn't necessarily have to make the info public, either. All they would have to do is make the judge (or whoever) aware of the axe hanging over their head, and they would become VERY cooperative.

But they can plant without trace and I bet they're experienced enough to even have programs that can help fabricate a preponderance of evidence. They could plant 15 years worth of kiddie porn pictures and generic sounding emails to shady sound groups and make it appear genuine.

Everything you have done electronically in the last 14 years the NSA knows.

They don't have to work so hard to make someone look bad. Had a mistress and you made a phone call to her? Done. Made a shady land deal? Done. Lied to your wife via text? Done. Think about your life, your secrets, the things you have watched, downloaded or just chatted about.

NSA knows. Their power lies in knowing more than you. Information is their power. They don't have to make things up about folks. They just have to connect the dots, and you are done.

Shit, they don't even have to make it about you. Maybe its your wife. Or your sister? Or mom & dad? Everyone has secrets. And if that secret touched the internet then the NSA knows about it.

And that is why that agency has got to fucking go. Can't coexist in a free and open society. It is antithetical to the very idea.

This is what kills me... there's not a lot of dirt on me personally that I wouldn't be willing to confront head on.

But revealing any incriminating things about my family or those close to me? I'd fold like a house of cards.

Hello your Honor,

Might your wife be interested in that one night stand back in 1999? we have the phone calls. Oh and then there are these texts to your mistress in 2005. And what about these shady financial dealings? Sure would be a shame if the IRS was to see all of this. And what would your neighbors think if they knew you used your connections on the bench to get that easement? We have the emails.

You see your honor, we just want to have an understanding with you. And you understand us, don't you? Good boy.

So true.

Who thinks of Chief Justice Roberts in times like these? His Obamacare endorsement always seemed strange to me.

This reminds me so much of prison break.

Using nsa data in court is like searching a house without a warrant and using what you find in court. It's illegal

Which is why they generally launder the information down to something usable in court before.

Ohhhh they have a fun term for it too! Called "parallel construction"

Wow.

That is wild.

:(

What's does illegal mean?

Illegal is something citizens aren't allowed to do.

Depends on what your definition of 'is' is.

Bill?

Yeah Harry?

-US Government

I think it means its ok...

You're good. Don't worry.

Fruits of the tainted tree? Something like that

Censored from worldnews. What a shock!

I do wonder how many of reddit's default subreddit mods happen to work in the "intelligence community".

"The PR community" is more likely. Although the two are by no means mutually exclusive.

It's all propaganda.

Exactly!!!

That is why I cross-posted it here. I knew that they would find a way to censor it. Everyone should know by now that r/worldnews only functions to bash enemies of the US.

Wouldn't this fall under

US internal news/US politics

which is a

Disallowed submission

?

They do that a lot to get submissions like this removed, but have allowed many U.S. based submissions to remain in the past, as long as it doesn't go against their agenda.

The /r/worldnews moderators are well-known for being corrupt and censor mongers. Note that the title is tagged "editorialized," which is just a fancy way of saying "sensationalist." They don't want people to believe, or read, anything that goes against their personal beliefs.

Exactly. I've seen plenty of American news on /r/worldnews before. Plus, this is the NSA we're talking about. This affects everyone in the world because we know now, thanks to Edward Snowden, that they're spying on people from all over the world.

The problem is that this was a very popular post AND it can easily be argued that this is world news. Anything major that happens to the NSA in court would be reported all over the world because it's world news. You really think this post was some kind of a nuisance and is being removed per the original intentions of the rule "no internal US politics?" That rule is for submissions that people outside of the US couldn't care less about and to free up slots for the entire world to participate in the front page of the sub. The entire world, I'm guessing, would be generally interested in this post. Therefore, the mod who removed it did so ONLY because he could say that it technically violated a rule. He can't say that the removal did something good for the worldnews sub. So the mod is simply enforcing rules because they are rules, not because he wants to be a good mod.

People of this country need to wake up!!! Why isn't all this NSA corruption being covered ALOT more??? Our government is out of control and we are being spied on at a level George Orwell himself could not grasp. The problem is all the stupid people out there that do not care and are generally just too ignorant to even understand what is going on. It is time for us to demand that our government stop spying on us. We need to replace every single politician currently in this country. It is time for a revolution! I truly do fear for the future of this country. Our population is getting dumber and dumber each and every generation. This is what the government wants. Educated people that are aware of what is going on in the world are the threat to our government. They will keep us in the dark as long as they can. There is a better way but we will never get there until we overcome our petty differences and unite as one. We need to keep ourselves educated and not listen to what the government allows the media to tell us. The Republicans and Democrats are just trying to confuse the people at every corner to keep us ignorant of their thievery. We need reform people! Our country is being threatened by the very same fools we keep electing to office.

I find it amusing you think there is still some battle to be fought. Bottlom line is American citizens are lazy and aren't willing to actually risk anything for these rights and freedoms. It is so easy to go on the interwebs and blast something but are you willing to give up a day of work? Maybe your job in order to protect what's rightfully yours. The answer 10 years ago may have been yes, luckily though the feds and corps have systematically made the majority of civilians so poor they could never risk taking to the streets and voice a concern when they have such overbearing debt above their heads and moreso general lack of motivation and willingness to take responsibility. It won't be until your citizens can unite and realize this is far beyond whatever selfish reasoning they may have that something may be accomplished. Luckily you have religion, gay marriage and people of colour to keep you all hating and fearing each other. In reality I'm sick of these posts saying "stand up and do something, protect your freedoms, we must act!" Lets just all get over that funny misconception right now and step back into reality and evaluate the situtation that has no control.

The major problem I mostly see with this is selfishness. You're all only willing to stand up because you want to have a better life and all that white picket fence shit. Let's squash that dream right now. America has a very long road to travel up hill in order to even see the word great on the horizon. Many of you need to realize that it is not going to be your livelyhood you're fighting for, thats gone, fucked and down the drain. You need to understand it's about your kids and grand kids and securing a slight glimmer of a future for them which at best is very bleak.

*I should mention too this is simply an opinion of someone living outside your box and looking in.

Edit* Upvoted you because you're still raising awareness.

I couldn't agree more. We are overworked, underpaid, out of shape, and just plain tired because of all that. Nobody cares "enough" about any of this. I know an alright amount of people who care. But as you pointed out it's only enough to bitch on the Internet and vote against those you are trained to hate.

The sad truth I see for myself is to work extremely hard for a "chance" to earn some good money so I can actually afford to enjoy life without constantly worrying about everything. Or I can move to a real westernized country that respects its citizens' rights and which the citizens aren't dumb, fat, lazy, and ignorant.

What makes you think other countries won't head down a similar path in the future? I dunno, it just seems like human nature. People want comfort naturally and power means comfort. If there was a time when America was really free, wouldn't other countries follow a similar path?

I just think the major push for "pure capitalism" that is present in our culture is toxic. Capitalism without any restraints or regulations is great for businesses but terrible for consumers. This is readily apparent with where our country now is and is moving to. Essential services like higher education and healthcare are unaffordable to the masses without taking on massive debts, pushing our country backwards as these 2 sectors have risen exponentially in the past 2 decades. We are witnessing the baby boomers bastardizing everything they were given by heir parents; everything that they worked so hard to give us. These opportunities are being seamlessly swept away. This ties in to most people here being dumb/lazy/overworked/tired like I said because they like one team and just decide it's easiest to go along with everything said team pushes forward as it must be the best thing for everyone, it must be true what they say and cannot be a lie.

I don't advocate any specific political system. Not capitalism, not socialism, not communism, and not theocracies. A hybrid of principles would most likely work best, but most people just choose sides like I said and have absolutely no interest in comprising or caring what happens to others.

Idk, perhaps other countries will follow our terrible ways someday. I don't foresee that as friends of mine that have traveled to various countries, mostly in Europe, have said the culture there is very different than here. More people oriented overall with actual respect to life outside of work. Perhaps we will have a radical shift towards real change, but so far our radical shift in the past half century has been to travel back in time and become extremely conservative and nutty. Democraps are barely left/liberal and are more moderate than anything. Repubes are trying to outdo the inequality that occurred in the roaring 20s or so.

Do something about it then. There's thousands of subscribers here but no one ever posts about actually doing anything.

The problem, which was proven with OWS, is that these issues won't be changed with thousands of demonstrators. They will simply be arrested, harassed, or swept under the rug while being ostracized. We need millions, which won't happen. You talk about this stuff with other but they mostly want to walk the party lines and firmly believe voting for the 2 evils will benefit us at some point. Those that do care only care enough to bitch in person to others, but then just want to go on in the merry little lives. Unless something happens that really hits home the masses won't care or do anything.

Excellent critique even though how sad it may seem.

What you say is true. The world in general is no better though just the illusion that I am better than you and you are better than them.

ut cum pace, praebebo

People of this country need to wake up!!! Why isn't all this NSA corruption being covered ALOT more???

Dude, Bieber assaulted his Limo driver. You need to get your priorities straight, yo.

I want to laugh at this however the amount of truth behind your statement makes me want to cry.

The NSA isn't being covered because its scope, context, rules, and effectiveness are not in the public knowledge. Real reporting relies on facts. We don't have many of those. Shitty sound-bite media relies on taking a quote and the talking heads' reaction to it. But its classified so no one talks about it. Snowden's goal was to frame a public policy debate. But it cannot be accomplished - none of these policies are actually public.

This is an incredibly important case, will be following closely.

It is. This is like some of the early wiretapping cases when the law was unsettled and as long as the wire was not placed within the property of the defendant it was considered ok.

Although I very much hope that I'm wrong and am just being a cynical douchebag, I'm giving 10-1 that the courts rule against the defendant.

This. I'm not sure why people think the same Supreme Court that appointed secret FISA judges, and has shown they will rule for corporations over citizens and civil rights literally every single time would produce any sort of positive ruling regarding NSA unconstitutional spying.

In the words of one Supreme Court Justice "The Constitution is dead."

I'm no fan of Scalia, but way to take his statement out of context.

Those who argue that the Constitution is a “living” document, argue that the meaning of the Constitution changes or evolves with time and context. The people who favor the “living Constitution” concept are those who want rule by man (themselves) rather than rule by law (the Constitution). Under the pretext that the Constitution is a “living” document, the Constitution can mean anything anyone in a position of power says it means at any time. It can mean one thing today, another thing tomorrow and a third thing next week.

"Dead constitution" is the opposite meaning it is not open to interpretation and stands as it was originally written.

His actions prove that he actually believes in the other meaning of his statement (i.e., Constitution is dead and he and his ilk are free to piss on it whenever they choose).

If his actions agreed with his supposed meaning I would agree with you, but they don't, and so I personally believe he said that intending the literal meaning, while also knowing that most people will defend his words despite the fact that his actions put the lie to them.

(serious)

Which justice was that? And when?

Thank you!

Scalia: https://adask.wordpress.com/2013/01/30/supreme-court-justice-scalia-the-constitution-is-dead-dead-dead/

Thanks again.

In Scalia’s view the Constitution is “dead, dead, dead” in the sense that it’s meaning is fixed, fixed, fixed. The Constitution is “dead” in the sense that the meaning of the Constitution is not lawfully subject to continuous meddling and reinterpretation by those who advocate the “living Constitution”. Scalia insists that the Constitution is “dead, dead,dead” in order to prevent liberals and treasonous whores from arbitrarily changing the meanings and definitions of the words in the Constitution.

Not the same as meaning that the Constitution is no longer a meaningful or viable document as it might easily be interpreted by saying:

In the words of one Supreme Court Justice "The Constitution is dead."

Read my other reply. I'm aware of the context.

His actions prove he believes in the literal meaning, and I'm sure he was counting on people defending his words despite his actions putting the lie to them.

Can someone please explain if Jamshid Muhtorov is a United States citizen? The article says that he moved to Denver in 2007.

Also, it is important to note that the article doesn't give any sources for its information. It only says at the bottom "Based on reporting by AP and Reuters". If I find anything that strikes me as sources, I will edit this comment.

edit: I found this article on reuters. I searched AP, but I found nothing. I'd still like to know if he is a US citizen.

I addressed it in another comment but from AP

Muhtorov was targeted by the Uzbek government because of his work with human rights groups in his homeland. He fled and resettled in Aurora, Colo., in 2007, as a political refugee and became a legal permanent U.S. resident.

To my knowledge the bill of rights, 4th amendment in particular, are meant to bar actions and laws of the Federal government. Being a legal resident, he should be just as protected from unconstitutional federal laws as a citizen. I am unsure of application to illegal residents.

he should be just as protected from unconstitutional federal laws as a citizen.

Are you sure about that?

Thanks for the ABC AP link.

For the bill of rights, I'm pretty sure, not 100% though. I don't think the ACLU would take up the case if they didn't think the 4th amendment was applicable to the defendant b/c they have limited resources and want the best chance of successfully repealing infringing laws.

I am of the opinion that the ACLU would assist those who would help their agenda. Everyone has an agenda and I don't think it should be a dirty word, but if they think it would add weight to their cause, then why wouldn't they bring it to the court's attention? Of course all of this is speculative :)

True, I was just speculating too. I'm not a constitutional lawyer. But my assumption was that they only have limited resources so they would take the strongest cases. Most importantly in this case though is that Muhtorov has standing, which has been used to dismiss similar cases.

Well put. I'll definitely stay tuned with this case. It would be amazing if Jamshid Muhtorov and his attorneys won the case and the spying programs that collect data on Americans ended.

You are correct, the ACLU does look for strong cases. Their intention is to set precedent, so they will avoid cases with confused issues.

Wholesale surveillance has been an important issue to the ACLU for quite some time, but the Supreme Court has made some decisions about standing that make it very difficult to address. You can't sue unless you know you are under surveillance, and since the surveillance is secret, you can't know about it. Clever, eh?

Ya, I'm glad people are finally discovering how fucked up the FISA system is. Thanks for giving some support to what I thought.

You seem more intelligent than I expected from a Pro Wrestler.

I feel like this court has been using standing issues to prevent cases way too often. In this case, the fact that we don't know is part of the harm, so anyone who is a potential victim, e.g. anyone who uses the Internet, anyone with a cell phone, ought to have standing.

Do you feel that our constitutional rights don't apply to him because he's only a permanent citizen? If so, do you think he shouldn't have to pay taxes like we do either?

Also, we were BORN with the right to privacy and freedom. The fact that they had to be put on paper in order to protect us from those in power is a dayum shame.

Do you feel that our constitutional rights don't apply to him because he's only a permanent citizen?

Not necessarily, but I do think it is important to note the distinction. If I go to a foreign country and purchase a product or service, that country has the option to charge me a tax on said product or service.

Also, we were BORN with the right to privacy and freedom.

We, in this case, consists of legal American citizens. I agree with you that the people need to have this documented in order to preserve our freedoms, but sadly, that is the world in which we live. Maybe in the future it will be different.

[deleted]

[deleted]

That's not a legally binding document.

Yes it is. You just have to be able to successfully argue a 9th amendment case.

When the court recognizes the Declaration of Independence as legally binding, it will be. Good luck.

Then again, if we went by literal translations, Women wouldn't be included.

[deleted]

institutionalized sexism

[deleted]

seriously? how about the room full of men who wrote that or how about patriarchy in general.

that was meant as a joke, but now I think you're serious

That was my understanding, but I have been shown the AP article that says he is a legal resident. I'm not a lawyer and I don't know what the difference is between the two.

Some rights are reserved for citizens, others apply to anyone in the US. It depends on the phrasing of the amendment and how it has been interpreted in the past.

There are that clarify things a bit.

AP

Reuters

In particular, regarding citizenship, from AP,

Muhtorov was targeted by the Uzbek government because of his work with human rights groups in his homeland. He fled and resettled in Aurora, Colo., in 2007, as a political refugee and became a legal permanent U.S. resident.

On the charges, from Reuters,

Muhtorov, who has pleaded not guilty to the charges, was arrested in January 2012 at O'Hare International Airport in Chicago. Prosecutors said he was planning to head overseas to fight with the Islamic Jihad Union, a Pakistan-based resistant group that opposes secular rule in Uzbekistan.

Hope this clarifies some things. Thank you OP for bringing this story to my attention, I will try to follow it as it developes

Very interesting. I want to know if I can sue Verizon for breach of contract and get all them money I have ever paid them back....

No, ex-Verizon manager here. We had a ton of people walking in yelling about just what you are talking about after the NSA news broke. The contract you signed obligates you for generally 2 years of service in exchange for the subsidized pricing on your phone (IE: $659 iPhone for $199). Your choice to use of Verizon as a service provider essentially strips you of said rights to privacy if law enforcement requests. If Verizon changes the terms of said contract you can cancel termination fee free though.

Isn't that the point though? NSA never "requested" anything, they just took.

*took what you, in your contract, agreed to share.

I agreed to share it, if law enforcement requests it. The understanding there is that there needs to be some kind of paper trail asking for access to a set or piece of data. What Verizon provides to the NSA (and all telecoms, not singling Verizon out here) is a direct pipe where nothing is requested, it's provided without question free of charge and with no paper trail.

Yes, I think it's implicit that the law enforcement request had to be legal, and it had to be a specific request.

Are you referring to ITT case or just in general?

In general.

what does "legal" even mean anymore with secret laws, secretly enforced by secret organizations alledgedly overseen by secret courts?

that seems so wrong

How does it feel to work for a company that is violating your friends and families civil right to privacy? Let me guess, you're doing it for the money, right?

Besides the ex bit, why else would he have a job except for money?

Maybe he or she enjoys the idea of doing this to someone?that'd why I asked.I'm sure Darth Vader likes working for the Emperor...until he tried to kill his kid.if Verizon kills a kid maybe it will change peoples mind.

He said "ex" manager.

Maybe try re reading the first two words he typed

I saw that, but I wanted to know what it was like when they worked there?

You could've worded that better then

Could have, should have...

Yeah

Relax, you shouldn't jump on someone because they were a manager at Verizon.

Look art his answer, typical spineless life style.so yeah, he deserves to be jumped on.

I understand the angle you are coming from but there are definitely bigger fish to fry. Being a manager at a Verizon store is like being a pawn on a chess board who has moved 2 steps.

It only slightly makes more sense than yelling at the guy who greets you at Walmart and calling him a coward because of Walmart's corporate practices.

Hey relax, I wasn't talking to you. Follow your own advice and get off me.

Then perhaps you should have PMed OP instead?

No.

I didn't care about that part, I had too much to deal with as it was. The $130k/year paycheck sure was nice though.

I'm glad that this is happening, now we'll finally get to see what kind of a kangaroo court we have in the USA

Don't be scared of comments supportive of the NSA in plenty of threads. There's paid commentators on reddit, as much as there are on plenty of forums, 4chan, above top secret, I have my suspicions of AR15 too. And plenty others that i don;'t know about.

yeah, that case will get somehwere. even if its ruled unconstitutional, whats to stop the nsa from making the jerk off sign and continue spying?

Well it's not as though the government hasn't waved constitutional rights before, case in point: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCXsjD903lA .

Not convinced... I wish there was more information about the case because if the information gathered makes in obvious that he has motives of terrorism, then I'd be glad they did it. But if it's just the government profiling and wasting money on being an ass hole then I'd get really mad and throw something and probably yell a bunch (seriously).

And which kind of terrorist group was he contacting?

One with a violent history? Or a group that tells the truth?

what did nancy pelosi just say??? fuck!

You have to pass the bill first to see what's in it.

Was just for your safety. Pls understand

I've been convinced for some time now that the trend of 'hushed up' trials lately have been for this reason. Especially high profile cases like the Boston bombings and Batman shooter. They perhaps used evidence obtained through some of these practices and didn't want to risk that information being public and them losing a case on those grounds or having public outcry so closely tied to an event like that.

"And so it begins"

GLP User? :D haha

This is bad news. He is the wrong to challenge this. He will be the poster child for continuing the program.

This should obviously be Fruit of the Poisoned Tree right?

This just highlights the fact that the NSA stuck to the letter of the law with regards to data collected. I'll say it again - no other criminal activities have been prosecuted using data gathered by the NSA. They stuck rigidly to their filtering systems, they didn't even pass information regarding deplorable crimes such as murders, child pedophile rings or rapists.

The problem now is that if Obama okays the data collection he may force them to share the information with all law enforcement agencies. So if you have a weed party going on you might get busted. Exactly what the NSA didn't use the information for. Personally I'm okay with them collecting info on people if it means it protects Western citizens both at home and abroad.

Of course you do. Shame though that it has fuck-all success protecting anyone and of course the fact that we all have to be spied on because of a handful of possible terrorists makes you feel sooo safe doesn't it?

I hope that none of my muslim friends are in any way connected to any dodgy dealings because I have no idea if they are; but hey, if I get arrested one day just for knowing them, that also makes me feel sooo safe.

You are now safe because you are being spied on and could in the future be arrested for something you have no idea about? What a lot of BS.

I do understand your pov, and fully condone it. I'm just saying the nsa did stick to their remit.

Baaaaabaaaa

No.

I agreed to share it, if law enforcement requests it. The understanding there is that there needs to be some kind of paper trail asking for access to a set or piece of data. What Verizon provides to the NSA (and all telecoms, not singling Verizon out here) is a direct pipe where nothing is requested, it's provided without question free of charge and with no paper trail.

Bill?

seriously? how about the room full of men who wrote that or how about patriarchy in general.

that was meant as a joke, but now I think you're serious