After the crap this website and subreddit has been through I sure hope the 215,584 free thinkers here can voice criticism of mods if they think they are over stepping their bounds. Hopefully rule 10 isn't going to be used to ban anyone who criticizes the moderation here or in the future.

i have repeatedly posted questions about rule 10 throughout my time here. they've all been removed or downvoted to hell.

i've always thought it fishy that this place for free thinkers should be censored in any way at all.

and here we are. mods telling us not to talk about certain things in the comments.

It's double edged.

Moderators feel to instead report and not comment violations because they feel it takes away from discussion.

We see it as trying to keep the troll/shill problem hidden and not really fixing it.

Bottom line is it's plain silly how much censorship there is. And in my opinion this: Rules are necessary. Can't have a subreddit without rules. But when a rule is broken, it should be visible to all. No removal of broken rules. The rulebreaker shall be warned and everybody can see who was warned for what. If the user continues, ban.

Honestly I've made it a point whenever criticism is leveled against me to ask all the mods to NOT REMOVE it. To allow people to voice their criticism.

Of course if you want to make a criticism against a mod, please do it in a mature fashion without a string of insults and slurs. there is constructive criticism and then there is all out witch hunting.

Sounds like a scary precedent, to make it illegal to harshly criticize the authorities. I agree there has to be limits, but you also have to agree that you know, and hopefully all the mods know, that there is going to be a concerted effort by the gov't infiltrators to try and get control over this subreddit after seeing the fact that we have over 215,000 subscribers.

So hopefully you are all dealing with these things with that in the forefront of your mind.

I agree partially.

I don't think it necessarily has to be the government trying to infiltrate.

There are thousands of special interests groups who would love to have total control over any sub with so many subscribers.

That's what I meant. Cass Sunstein type assholes. CoIntelPro. Whatever they are calling themselves nowadays. The mods are some of the most important players on this sub and we've seen when things go bad in the past. I don't envy your position.

I've noticed the mil stepped up their game. Propoganda is legal now I guess. I've read 1 person can control a handful of different accounts and basically have a conversation with themselves. I do kind of see that here sometimes.

I agree with you also, but realistically I don't think there is any other sub which has more potential promote and spread the kind of information which the establishment does not want people to be talking about. Here we talk about 911, about the military industrial complex, HAARP...you know the list. These subjects emanate from the most powerful entities in the world. The special interest groups are of a different order.

Yes but we do not really spread that info very far; yes around a quarter of a million people may see it. But at the same time those are the quarter of a million people looking for those types of answers.

Most attempts at getting info from hear to the larger hive mind that is reddit do not go well or disappear shortly after hitting the front page.

They do not even need to infiltrate the sub at a mod level all they have to do is say the right things in a comment section or a post and watch the shit show of people arguing making us all look like a bunch of crazy people.

The shills and trolls want to get you angry, they want badly worded responses and to make you look like a loon so that way when we do get something out in to the wild, they can stand up and say "O but look at the whack jobs post history"

...but especially one that discusses some of the things we discuss here.

I don't think it necessarily has to be the government trying to infiltrate.

But you do realize that the government has a vested interest in social networks (specifically, to control the message), especially those which receive millions of hits per month, have hundreds of thousands of active members, and propagate ideas and beliefs which tend to run counter to some of their efforts...yes?

I used to think that- about "Hey allow the criticism. We want freedom to comment, they should have it too." until I started my Sandy Hook subreddit last night.

I've never dealt with so much trash, mean talk, threatening and harassing messaging - PMs directly to me- horrible things. "Vote brigading" is nothing compared to what happens behind the scenes for moderators of a subreddit where controversial information is being discussed/disseminated.

When I started my sub I was not going to ban anyone, just let everyone say anything they wanted bc - why not. Well soon enough I had threats in my inbox and admins of all of reddit removing, then replacing, my posts, all my posts instantly at -1, every comment I made met with cruelty or derisive comments. Just a mess. Sadly, if everyone was reasonable, we wouldn't need this.

Want to get all of "us" and move to an island? I do.

As much as I would lay my life on the line to fight for you guys' freedom to talk about unpopular subjects, there is an entirely different group of people that I would prefer to live on an island with.

No offense intended, I don't really know you people. We have one or two common points of interest and that isn't really enough to live on an island with each other and not have it devolve into a lord of the flies situation.

Yeahhhhh I should have qualified that. Because I agree with what you just said, what I meant was that I'd want to live on an island with other people who did not need to be governed, the type of people who did not need rules that said "No trolling!"

Fans of conspiracy theories or otherwise, a land populated by a group that could be sovereign individuals unto themselves and need no governing body to form would be a cool, kind group of people.

I moved to a remote/rural area to do just that. My county has 7000 people (3 per square mile). I never have to see another person if i don't want to. The best part is, the people I do see are very like minded in their distrust of the government and overall skepticism of anything they see on tv/read in the newspaper.

If I didn't have children I'd live nextdoor aka 1000miles away from u

lol. i have noticed kids here seem happier. probably because a lot of them get homeschooled and don't get sentenced to 8 hours a day with the general population

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Sounds like me around 8th grade lol. I just don't see public school benefiting kids anymore, but they have to go since the "american way" means both parents work. We need to get back to old ways. 1 parent home, teaching kids etc.

You're lucky. My county has 800,000 people. I can sneeze out my window and hit my neighbors house. They are good at regurgitating media talking points and lack critical thinking skills.

I spent most of my life in philly and austin in living conditions like that. I can't express how free i feel here. We have 100 acres, i go on hikes IN MY YARD lol. I also have my own moto X area in the field...well until we turn that into a hemp crop :)

How about trolling here and reporting back to the "other" subreddit?

http://i.imgur.com/tcZwXJP.jpg

Yes that's why we also added no trolling to the rules.

How are you defining trolling?

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Indeed. I'm polishing my report button as we speak.

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That'd be quite irresponsible of me. This subreddit needs it's genuine users more now than ever. These rules are fucked.

Yes, and in detail. Subjective rules are shit and prone to abuse/manipulation in any context.

http://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/1ygv0w/fyi_rules_2_5_10_have_been_modified/cfklsjy

Another mod posted this answer, my answer is similar but different enough that I'll answer it separately here.

In the context of reddit, trolling is explicitly or implicitly seeking people out whom with you disagree, and attempting to make their experience torturous. The intent is important, and the history is important.

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No.

All that dude does is troll here. Anyone posting bullshit here and then "reporting back" over there should get the boot whether a rule existed or not.

Seriously start following the rules.

IF you want to report this guy then do it in the mod mail or DON'T DO IT!

The new rules are trying to get these types of tattle tale comments out of the discussion area.

You have other fish to fry in the discussion area before "tattle tale comments" are even considered. That's ok though, i look forward to seeing how attentive the mods are to 100000 reported comments per day

It will be interesting to see how it goes.

Ask yourself this,

What good have the tattle tale comments done for this sub? The users making the accusations can't actually ban anyone or remove the comments, the flame wars that spawn from such accusations often derail and dominate the entire discussion.

Are we here to give attention to trolls? or are we here to discuss "conspiracy".

I personally think that the answers are obvious and acknowledging the trolls is exactly the response that they want. Its exactly how they divert the conversation and exactly what they intended to do.

Why then feed them?

To self validate that you can see the obvious?

To prove to everyone here that you're smart enough to see a troll?

And beyond that, a solid 50% of the time, the person being accused of trolling isn't really trolling so much as "not agreeing".

I've seen plenty of regulars here who I've had decent discussions with get flamed for not believing 1 specific conspiracy.

I'm not here to force my views on anyone. Maybe encourage them to see my side, but i'm not going to get violent and punch a coworker for not agreeing with me.

How can you not even recognize that none of what you are saying does anything to fix the problem of trolls/shills.

Just ignore them? Are you ignorant of the fact that does not work?

You can go on and on about an alleged prevalence of false shill/troll accusations but that does not prove your point either, especially when you don't back it.

It goes furthermore when you also consider that we have a lot of proven evidence to the contrary, evidence which proves how people are trolls/shill and get caught, and then delete their accounts and comments.

There have been so many shenanigans with trolling/shilling here that it's not even funny.

It seems like nothing serious is being done to actually combat the problem.

A 3 day waiting period to post? Are you joking me?

That's the /r/conspiracy version of troll protection?

That's absurd, that's so illogical it blows my mind.

A paid shill can swap through 3 groups of 3 accounts and you can set up different operations that are even more complex.

Trolls will just create as many accounts as they like until they become bored.

We are dealing with a lot of trolls, some more dedicated than others ( though they're all pretty bad and mostly obvious which is why they create so many damn accounts ) but many of them are in control of the shills, such as the ones who run /r/conspiratard .

Let me give you an example of how I don't accuse people of things unless it's justified.

I don't believe in aliens. I don't accuse people who don't agree with me of being shills though when they present a genuine intelligent human answer.

That is where shills/trolls fails, they are not being themselves thus they are not being genuine. They are being themselves in that they're being really awful which just transfers right into their trolling/shilling abilities.

You see the people that I would accuse of being trolls/shills do not post like I do.

They do not use proper grammar, spelling, logic, more than 2 or 3 paragraphs if they even use paragraphs or just blurt out sentences, and they are generally always rude in some manner or fashion.

So, what do you feel about what I have said here?

Rules 5 and 10 seem contradictory. I have gotten into arguments with these people about how "shills" don't exist and they are just part of the tinfoil hat crazy theory. They are akin to Bigfoot and the Chupacabra. But then they make a rule saying we can't call anyone Bigfoot anymore, but at the same time they don't exist either? Seems like rule 10, if anything, now helps people who troll here with group accounts.

Many of us here believe that may be the purpose, it could be possible that one of the mods has subversive interests that benefit from these rules. This is not a rule violation I am making no accusations, only suppositions.

I really hope that's not the case and that these Changes are a genuine attempt at strengthening our defense against those who wish to see this sub destroyed.

I understand why you feel this way. I just don't agree with it.

We are trying a new tactic, part of that tactic involves these new rules. I hope for the best.

please report any suspicious activities you see to us in mod mail.

'Please report any suspicious activities'

As if we don't hear that enough on the radio, at the airport, at the train station.

Well done.

"If you see something, say something"

Will do.

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Because we are here to discuss these articles and theories, not to eat imaginary popcorn and intensify a meta circle jerk.

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You asked me why. I told you why. Never did I give any indication that our reasons had anything to do with you specifically.

If you have reason to believe that my reply was an attack against you then by all means, report me via mod mail.

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Are you not here to discuss the articles posted here or conspiracy theories?

I like the 'no calling shill' rule. I hate that word and I constantly get commends like, "well you're a shill" ... seriously? I have a different opinion. You gonna accuse everyone of having a different opinion of being a shill? Just childish. You don't like my reasoning, tell everyone why.

The golden rule: don't be a dick.

Hijacking the top comment to announce /r/ConspiracyNoRules

A sub with no rules to discuss what you want about conspiracies. You can even come there to attack users or call people shills. But I would prefer if you conduct yourself in a civilized manner as we do not need rules right...

fuck, well its the last nail in reddits coffin, we knew it couldnt last forever... time to find another source for the news nerds, ive heard of a firmware version you can slap on chrome cast to give you your own channel, that other people can watch....This might hold some promise.

Saying cowardice from mods will get you banned?

You know the rules are screwed up when one of the rules is that you can't criticize the rule-makers.

Inability to accept criticism reveals a lack of integrity.

IMO being banned for that kind of comment is ridiculous and a tad Orwellian. That's not even an attack it's just an opinion about cowardice. Is it ok if we call you brave?

time for a new r/conspiracy then

You know the rules are screwed up when one of the rules is that you can't criticize the rule-makers.

Inability to accept criticism reveals a lack of integrity.

Here, here.

Just what the people who hire the shills want.

When the mods start changing the rules more frequently than Napoleon did in Animal Farm, you have to start worrying.

The shill rule is interesting since it's a documented fact & proper conspiracy. Seems we are being neutered.

Everyone one knows shills exist. That doesn't mean you can sling the insult like so many turds just because you can't hold up an argument. The same goes for calling someone an asshole, or cockgobbler, or anything.

These rule changes mean all conversations of violations rules and/or shilling must be private, not public.

This is a problem because it removes some of the public oversight in this sub.

"Some"? I'd say closer to most (all?).

exactly. but hey we all know this place was fishy eh?

I can't be the only one who thinks that this opens the door for all kinds of abuse.

Allows shills to run around without consequence, basically destroying the integrity of any discussion that takes place here.

Then call them out for specifically why they're wrong. Calling people shills is just a lazy thought stopping device.

This would be fine if they were actually interested in discussion, but they're more interested in spamming whatever views they're being paid to spam regardless of their validity to change viewers perceptions through sheer volume rather than quality or truth of content.

The same can be said about many of the regulars here in this sub. Unless you can prove they're shills, get over it. End the conversation or destroy them with your superior logic.

You're not.

Yup. Good to know. I see this thread now full of people such as yourself pointing out the problems.

Question. If someone is accused of being a troll/shill but evidence is presented, is it still an offense?

What kind of evidence? Pay stubs? Photographs of users entering buildings of companies known to do stuff like this? Showing a posting history of disagreeing with you or conspiracies proves absolutely nothing.

So is referencing someone's post history going to automatically fall into this category?

I'm just trying to make sure everyone is clear here.

It would be ideal if we could discuss the articles posted in conspiracy and not the users of the forum.

We really really really don't want every single comments section of every single article to be an analysis of every user who doesn't "believe".

As a mod I see a lot of people being bullied because they don't agree with one specific conspiracy which is a pet conspiracy for one group, but they agree with or have pet conspiracies of their own.

We really need to just focus on the articles and not the people. We already have rules in place to deal with trolling and other disruptive behaviors.

It would be ideal if we could discuss the articles posted in conspiracy and not the users of the forum.

It would be ideal if there weren't users that intentionally comment misinformation for whatever the reason may be.

We really really really don't want every single comments section of every single article to be an analysis of every user who doesn't "believe".

Except most issues are point out disruptors, not nonbelievers.

As a mod I see a lot of people being bullied because they don't agree with one specific conspiracy which is a pet conspiracy for one group, but they agree with or have pet conspiracies of their own.

This is going to make combating the intentionally deceiving commenters tougher while this bully problem is rare compared to the disinformation.

We really need to just focus on the articles and not the people. We already have rules in place to deal with trolling and other disruptive behaviors.

And they do not work.

Point out issues directly to the mods via mod mail. pointing it out in the comments section only serves to feed the trolls and further disrupt the conversation.

And they do not work.

The rules are only as strong as the community is willing to follow them and report violations in the appropriate way.

Good. here is your first chance:

http://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/1yfwfu/matt_taibbi_quits_rolling_stone_joins_glenn/cfkaslc?context=3

http://www.reddit.com/user/RepliesToDipshits

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Don't take this the wrong way, I'm not trolling you.

I know who you are. I like you. Rather than be reasonable people and make reasonable decisions, we should just make up even more flawed "rules" to justify unreasonable decisions.

Thin skinned? Maybe being tough should be a requirement to be a mod.

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No accusations of rules violations in comments. Please report violations.

Seriously. Please just report them.

No accusations of rules violations in comments. Please report violations. Seriously. Please just report them.

rules are only applicable to the little people?

A green name quoting a rule violation is a warning.

remember what happened to digg?

If you want to see what a subreddit without rules looks like check out my experiment at /r/askflytape

subscribed!

yeah its pretty much a graveyard of logical fallacies and personal attacks.

i was just noticing that you are a mod at /r/holocaust

So instead of handling it ourselves we're supposed to run crying to mommy?

I prefer "daddy", but that is the general idea.

I'm grown. All I want to do is call them a shill and move on.

Cause y'all won't even do that. Like you haven't done anything about all the right wing shilling and lies about the Ukraine and Venezuela as the US, EU, and global plutocracy try to bring down elected governments so they can take over and steal them blind.

5 Sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule. This is also known as the primary 'attack the messenger' ploy, though other methods qualify as variants of that approach. Associate opponents with unpopular titles such as 'kooks', 'right-wing', 'liberal', 'left-wing', 'terrorists', 'conspiracy buffs', 'radicals', 'militia', 'racists', 'religious fanatics', 'sexual deviates', and so forth. This makes others shrink from support out of fear of gaining the same label, and you avoid dealing with issues.

http://m.dailykos.com/story/2012/07/22/1112509/-The-Gentleperson-s-Guide-to-Forum-Spies

I care little of labels placed on me. My personal favorite is when an obvious shill attempts to label me as a shill. I always get a laugh out of that, destroy their non-argument, and watch as they delete their prior posts in an attempt (poor at that) to save face and not be tied to being a known shill.

Truth speaks for itself. And personal attacks should NOT affect your position. The only man that fears bring called a shill is a shill.

Heh. I prefer "big brother."

That's a joke! I'm not insulting the moderators. Please don't ban me.

Hey /u/defiantshill! How's it going under your new moniker?

That's the second person I've been accused of being. I wish I had been important enough to be missed.

It's ok. I know you get confused easily. Maybe /u/myconspiracyname is what you answer to these days. Who knows?

Who is that person you keep obsessing an harassing me about? Did they do something to personally hurt you?

You're making a mistake!

No, they know what they're doing.

Only if some of them are shills.

True. Corruption is rife though ay?

That sounds reasonable. Spurious accusations should not be tolerated. However, we also acknowledge that shills do exist on Reddit, and if evidence is presented along with the charge, in a respectful way, then those posters should not be punished. It sounds like this is what you are saying....am I correct?

meaning evidence that they are paid or have a personal interest

How is a sustained comment history monofocused towards corrupting threads in /r/conspiracy not evidence of this? Personal interest literally motivates everything you do.

correlation does not equal causation. Just because someone has a sustained comment history in one particular area does not mean that they are a paid government employee.

Great, that's exactly what I wanted to hear. Thanks, you guys have been doing a great job lately.

wait is this a troll comment? remove it!

That's not right. Only trolls and shills would support that rule.

But pointing out conspiratards is okay?

This is inane.

Careful, that comment might be seen as a violation of Rule Number Ten.

I believe discouraging accusations of trolling/shilling should be a suggestion, not a banable offence. All others seem reasonable.

Either way, I'll oblige and respect your right to moderate your sub however you feel necessary.

If I hear "Stawman" one more time I'm going to have a fit.

No, it's just a cowards way out of a discussion/argument.

Logical fallacies are the same thing right? A non intellectual way out of a debate.

Basically if you're running to a "rule book" on debating you shouldn't be in a debate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=_5OgDnvATkE#t=2823

Do you see all the kids yelling "THAT'S NOT FAIR YOU LIED" or "THAT'S A STRAWMAN LOGICAL FALLACY!"

It's like yup, there's a lot of fallacies, you read the list, good for you.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

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Logical fallacies have been thrown around by TPTB both local and federal, corporations and marketers to sell their products, churches to gain membership, parents to their children, educators to their students so fervently that I believe hardly anyone knows the meaning of a cogent argument anymore, let alone the fact that an argument isn't a fight. It makes me think that have a good foundation of general grammar, logic, and rhetoric (The Trivium) truly was systematically removed from common education and only the elites and Ivy Leagues grace their students with the liberty of being able to think on their own. This must be part of the reason why the elites and the key players in the government view the citizenry as not even being worthy of being included in the discussion.

[deleted]

Well put! What do we do with the folks who find no value in truth and are content to keep their head in the sand? Bless their hearts, some of them we love. Case in point, you know that post that runnin up top right now about showing the whole truth of war? I know people dear to me that will refuse to look at something like that but will still vote to go to war. Or folks who refuse to watch an animal get slaughtered, but still eat its flesh as long as they don't have to see where it came from. Some people will flat out deny, divert from, delay, or delude themselves from the truth.

In reality, identifying and exploiting an opponents use of fallacious logic is an integral part of debating.

Yeah but you don't pack up the chessboard and go home once you've identified it.

[deleted]

Quitters aren't winners.

Also, then you'd have an excuse to leave and say you won any argument you wanted to.

"People should be allowed to have guns"

"THAT'S A STRAW MAN ARGUMENT, I'M OUTTA HERE"

Rules violations: You guys are now actively censoring free speech. How do you feel about yourselves blatantly selling out?

Shall we henceforth expect thy honors to admit our humble opinions before they are greenlighted?

Do you even know how this makes you look? Aaron will haunt you guys!

they just want to make it so you can't out paid informants and subversive infiltrators, as the entire place is owned, operated and controlled by compensated freedom hating scumbags that are ultimately controlled by lea and the military

Well damn I know this isn't entirely my fault but Rule 10 seems to have been changed explicitly because of users like myself, I know what I was posting the past 3 days here.

How do you suggest then we try to address people who we beleive to be shills/trolls.

Would you guys be willing to impliment a system where we can report users based on presented evidence from their account activity?

Also, can you guys PLEASE consider not allowing members who have been subscribed to /r/conspiracy for less than a month old to post comments?

It is not an unfair entry barrier, it's an effective measure in stopping many trolls from even bothering.

A person who truly wishes to comment here is willing to subscribe and wait a month, and if not then I don't feel they deserve to participate.

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I don't care who you are if you violate rules I will report your comment no matter what.

Thanks to the rule change now I will just report and not notify the user.

Then what happens?

Now you almost have to track all of the comments you've reported and check back to see if the moderators moderated right?

Then what happens? The established procedure for reviewing reported comments, you kidding me?

I don't have to check back, I know I reported it and that's all I am allowed by the rules here to do.

The mods are very capable of tracking these reports because they all get logged, this is how they are able to ban repeat offenders, they have record of it.

Your trust in the process is adorable.

Since when did I ever insinuate that I trust the system works?

All I said is that there is established procedure that is supposed to take place.

[deleted]

Stop trying to defame my character through false assertions.

All I said is I will follow the new rules in reporting users who are violating rules, regardless of who they are.

[deleted]

The benefits of reporting comments are no different than they were before the rule change.

Stop trying to defame my character through thinly veiled accusations.

The mods are making a mistake on this.

Okay fair enough no posting of accusations which can't be proven.

Would the moderators be open to the idea however of viewing "I think this person is a troll/shill" submission when they meet a certain requirement such as a defined number of examples which are logically supported expositions of their shilling?

This could easily be done by a group of mods who could be held to scrutiny by having to post the results of the case when it indeed turns out that the user is a shill/troll.

This process leading to a ban is not unfair nor is it wrong-doing towards those users who are provable shills/trolls as they are inherently acting against the well being of this subreddit.

I am not sure how else we would be able to effectively fix this situation.

Also, the three day waiting does not solve the issue of shills/trolls creating a bunch of shill/troll accounts, are you kidding me?

That "entry barrier" fails to accomplish its' purpose.

I mean am I not responding directly to the man right now, the mod /u/SovereignMan?

Are you not allowed to address my post content publicly?

Because I'm sorry to assert this but it appears that you are dodging the issue by claiming that the issue of trolls/shills isn't as complex as one would believe, when we actually have many examples directly to the contrary.

I would not say that had you not been so dismissive.

Like you're a MOD and you're telling me to contact all the mods when you yourself could have instead of posting your comment and making me reply which is in turn making you read this ( I hope ), you could have just send a PM to the /r/conspiracy of the permalink saying "weigh in on this comment please".

I don't believe it when you dismissively say "there isn't a complex troll/shill issue" on reddit, especially here in /r/conspiracy where the subversion and infiltration and attempts to discredit ( /r/conspiratard ) are so blatantly obvious and proven and supported by a wide array of multiple sources exposing several degrees and types of trolls/shills ( corporate shills for the oil industry and global warming racket industry, military propaganda shills backed by evidence of the most visits coming from that AF base, Corporate advertising shills ( my "sister" baked me this PRINGLES cake, pringles, pringles, this clearly isn't corporate shilling to get you to buy pringles, pringles ).

It's just absurd to dismiss the FACT that the troll/shill issue is a complex issue, and furthermore that the current level of effort to combat the problem is not high enough.

A 3 day wait to post does not stop trolls/shills. That is an unfunny joke.

I assure you I will send a PM to /r/conspiracy and I will make a self post, not necessarily in that order but it will be done.

It seems to me that you're turning what is a relatively simple issue into something that is way more complex than it needs to be.

This is what I take issue with, because the troll/shill issue is not relatively simple.

You guys are talking about ways to track vote brigading ( http://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/1xe3aw/i_would_like_to_introduce_myself/cfav6xw ) that is not a simple issue, nor is the larger issue of trolls/shills.

I retract that you are dodging certain things I've said ( why 3 day waiting period is bogus, it should at least be a week I'll say a month is too long myself).

I still think that you're way underplaying the shill/troll issue though.

We can tell who is and isn't just by looking at their profile.

Luckily we can do such a thing. But has it been figured out if we can use that info in our debunking of users?

no man, self posts about a specific user being a troll never ends well.

oh okay.

I must have read that wrong then.

There's no proof anyone is a troll or a shill. It's mostly just a matter of opinion which is okay. Their punishment is calling them a troll or a shill. You're saying there's no naming and shaming now. Now they can do what they want?

But what next? No articles submitted unless there is proof? This is equally against the ethos of /r/conspiracy.

i hope to see some zero tolerance troll and shill patrolling then because if you dont you are going to see people calling them out for you

The whole point of the rule is to stop people from calling them out.

and if the mods refuse to ban obvious cases like bitchintechnology and co it will fail

Isn't that convenient... Who are you btw? And how did you become a mod? You're new around here and I've never seen you as an active member of the community.

Great idea on #10 mods NOT. I mean I really don't mean to fuck with you guys but it is VERY important that we out shills. Now you guys look like it, sorry but it's how it seems. Protecting them and all

What if they are a troll and/or shill?

Apparently things have been going too smoothly lately so they have to upset people again.

And given all the trolls and shills here it's ridiculous we can't call them out. Who the fuck's idea was this?

My thoughts exactly. It's fishy - this removes all oversight from the sub with regards to this issue.

It is important to also be harvesting and continually maneuvering for a forum moderator position. Once this position is obtained, the forum can then be effectively and quietly controlled by deleting unfavourable postings - and one can eventually steer the forum into complete failure and lack of interest by the general public. This is the 'ultimate victory' as the forum is no longer participated with by the general public and no longer useful in maintaining their freedoms. Depending on the level of control you can obtain, you can deliberately steer a forum into defeat by censoring postings, deleting memberships, flooding, and or accidentally taking the forum offline. By this method the forum can be quickly killed. However it is not always in the interest to kill a forum as it can be converted into a 'honey pot' gathering center to collect and misdirect newcomers and from this point be completely used for your control for your agenda purposes. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/07/22/1112509/-The-Gentleperson-s-Guide-to-Forum-Spies

Everyone needs to remember this. Also funny how the mod shakeup happened just at the right time.

And we got some good new mods but it seems like the other ones, the ones at the bottom of the list, are running things.

What do you mean by the mod shakeup?

1. Sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule. This is also known as the primary 'attack the messenger' ploy, though other methods qualify as variants of that approach. Associate opponents with unpopular titles such as 'kooks', 'right-wing', 'liberal', 'left-wing', 'terrorists', 'conspiracy buffs', 'radicals', 'militia', 'racists', 'religious fanatics', 'sexual deviates', and so forth. This makes others shrink from support out of fear of gaining the same label, and you avoid dealing with issues.

   http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/07/22/1112509/-The-Gentleperson-s-Guide-to-Forum-Spies

Yes everyone needs to remember this, but lets be sure that we read the entire article about forum spies and maybe for a moment, consider that the new rules might just be addressing these very issues that dominate the conversation at /r/conspiracy and don't really add anything to the actual discussion.

Its really super easy to quote one small section of the Gentleman's guide to forum spies, which was hilariously renamed by dailykos or someone down the line to make it gender neutral. And to ignore the inconvenient parts that would actually force someone to become a better debater and not just rely on easy outs such as.

Oh, you're just a right wing shill so nothing you say is based upon reality. IGNORE!

seriously... Does anyone here see the above quote as a legitimate argument? This is what the new rules are about. And to further complicate this problem we have a group of users who have taken it upon themselves to start some sort of shill fighting alliance which has dominated the comments section of just about every interesting topic that comes up. Has no one noticed the non-stop flame wars?

We aren't asking anyone to register as a republican here, we are asking that you don't make personal attacks, we have clarified that personal attacks DOES include calling someone a shill or a troll.

[deleted]

Yep. And not so much conservative, but kind of organized conservative, either paid for by some group sponsored by the wealthy or maybe by governments, and not just the US.

7 Question motives. Twist or amplify any fact which could be taken to imply that the opponent operates out of a hidden personal agenda or other bias. This avoids discussing issues and forces the accuser on the defensive.

Also from http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/07/22/1112509/-The-Gentleperson-s-Guide-to-Forum-Spies

And how about these?

5 Sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule. This is also known as the primary 'attack the messenger' ploy, though other methods qualify as variants of that approach. Associate opponents with unpopular titles such as 'kooks', 'right-wing', 'liberal', 'left-wing', 'terrorists', 'conspiracy buffs', 'radicals', 'militia', 'racists', 'religious fanatics', 'sexual deviates', and so forth. This makes others shrink from support out of fear of gaining the same label, and you avoid dealing with issues.

Considering No.8 is constantly violated without any repercussions, you can just keep on doing as you wish... Oh no, hang on, some points are more policed than others. This sub is turning into one of those pre-monitored newspaper comment sections where you can only say what fits in with what is perceived right by whoever runs it. I don't use racist language but if someone does and everyone disagrees, are there not already things in place to let them know by downvoting [or educating them]? And if everybody agrees, [even if it is perceived as wrong by a mod], isn't free speech a right? Moderating this right won't change anyone's opinion, it just silences them. Whereas a good counter argument might actually do change their minds.

But that can't happen now. Is this North Korea or what?

Not disagreeing entirely with you; but as far as free speech being a right...it is and it is not. I know the sub side bar states its welcome here so if you are referring to that then, yes seems the cake was a lie.

But if you are referring to your constitutional right to free speech then you are mistaken as Reddit is a company, and a private one at that. You may have the freedom to stand on a sidewalk and say what you please, but you can not go into a restaurant and say the same things as they have the right to refuse your service. Same thing with your house, I can not walk in and say whatever I please.

ok how about paid informant, subversive infiltrator or compensated freedom hating scumbag for #10

Cool.

These rules remove all oversight from the sub - everything will be done in private messages.

Call me melodramatic but this reminds me of the FISA Court and I don't like the implications of it. Bans meted out in secret, so much more grey area for deleting comments/banning people, etc.

Very suspect.

This is absolutely absurd. Congratulations.

i tried to bring this up 6 months ago and nobody listened

http://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/1jucye/my_posts_have_been_removed_from_this_sub_for/

Wow. Didnt we just defeat shit like this by ousting the old mods? Same shit - Different day.

How have 2&5 changed? I think I spot the change in 10, but some clarification would be good, ta.

I was not saying boo-urns.

wow this subreddit is heavily moderated and censored.

glwt

I shall refer to rule 10 as the "shill protection act". Peace. I'm out. Sub for free thought and free speech my ass. This is censorship at its worst.

[deleted]

Just avoid personal attacks on users and you should be fine.

[deleted]

I would have thought so, as that isn't criticising a user personally.

when did everybody become so afraid of words?

when did we forget the saying "sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt"

when did we forget that freedom of speech comes with tolerance of what other people have to say?

Here, here.

First, the point is to try to clean up a subreddit known quite infamously for its vitriol. Second, that saying is absolute bunk. Words are one of the most powerful tools a human posses, and they can drive a man to kill himself or others if used correctly.

Insults have no place in a forum designed to espouse truth and critical thinking; they only water it down.

nationality

Isn't it obvious why this was added?

What "nation" is currently trying to criminalize critical opinions of it?

How do you define trolling?

by that definition, isn't the entire /r/conspiracy one big troll fest?

I, actually, don't post anything on here- personally- to make ANYBODY upset, or hurt feelings, or even make people angry. It is usually to support, get feedback, etc.

well, you can't even talk about the crisis actors being used at boston marathon bombing hoax without someones panties getting in a wad and then they start crying about "victim slander". the phony outrage is pretty obvious.

I've yet to hear a response from someone who is "outraged" which explains, "Well you see, I used to baby sit Jane Doe, the child killed in classroom 5 at the shooting. I went to her wake, and mourned with her family and it was awful. And so you questioning IF the shooting took place feels mean, though I understand your questions about HOW, because as a concerned citizen, and mourning friend of the family, I too want better more concise evidence, facts and answers. So thank you for your effort, but just know that I saw little Jane's body in that casket, I watched her family cry and lower it, and so questioning her death is disrespectful, but THANK YOU for wanting more answers about how/why this tragedy did happen."

You don't get that.

You get: "You piece of shit I hope you and your family in (insertmystate) all die in a fire" or "You inbred piece of ignorant crap" or "Go talk to the aliens and shapeshifters about to voodoo at Sandy Hook. Dont forget your tinfoil hat!"

I never have received a well thought out, well informed, meaningful and valid objection.

this is helpful

http://dudelol.com/DO-NOT-HOTLINK-IMAGES/Pyramid-of-Debate.jpg

Peoples' "panties get in a wad" because people like you post the home phone numbers of the families on Twitter and FriendFeed. And yes I can prove that.

Prove it, liar.

Not a home phone but anyone with half a brain knows damn well what you're trying to do here. You're enticing your minions to directly harass the Richard family, because you don't have the balls to do it yourself.

So basically, you lied.

Sounds like that can be a matter of opinion.

The problem is, trolling is still a completely subjective thing. For example, some people would say anyone questioning 9/11 is trolling, because in doing so they are belittling the memory of the people who died and because it's controversial.

How do we know this won't be abused in future to simply remove controversial or subjectively offensive content?

Okay what do you consider deliberately provocative?

A lot of things could be considered annoying to a lot of people.

Which causes them to take down their 22 hour old very well organized and research subreddit. :(

Wait what caused you to pull your sub?

And if people start reporting every troll and shill the mods are gonna find that pretty annoying.

Nah. It'll be the excuse used when some reports are conveniently missed.

Not as annoying as a 300 comment long flame war where nothing important can be discussed because "OMG EVERYONE'S A TROLL, SHILL OR CONSPIRATARD!"

Ignore, report, send a mod mail and move the fuck on.

rule 2 states: No accusations of rules violations in comments. Please report violations.

Can you explain in the rule where people are suppose to report rule violations?

also you can PM /r/conspiracy like this

http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fconspiracy

if it is a situation that isn't obvious at first glance

Tattletale Tattletale run away home.
Expect Mommy to protect you, don't act like you're grown.

We could all crash steves place

So, how do we Christians respond to the "all religion is mind-control" comments? Report them all?

all religion is mind-control

Does the modification to rule 10 only apply to directly accusing an individual of being a shill? Or apply to any discussion of shill posters in this subreddit?

Are we still allowed to point out, and ask about potential conflicts in interest, and agendas we find in peoples comment history as long as we don't call them a "shill", and do so respectfully in a way that fosters discussion?

Thanks for the clarification.

Question for u/SovereignMan: How would we then call out a user who we beleive to be a shill? This sub, and all of reddit for that matter has been proven to be heavily infiltrated by shills.

Just gonna put in my 2 cents here, with all the complaints I've been noticing about accusations of trolls & "shills" I think the mods have made a good call here, in the spirit of keeping everyone happy, & keeping discussion respectable.

With my one-time 2-3 week long mod experience awhile back, I'll just say Moddin' ain't easy, especially if you have other shit that requires doing on top of that, & I think these guys & gals are doing a good job considering the amount of subscribers & the topics discussed, & the fragile nature of conspiracy vs. ideology.

We all have ideas, opinions, theories & our own beliefs true to ourselves, sometimes upon conversation these things conflict, sometimes emotions/negativity surface, & things can & have gotten chaotic as a result, it could be avoided if we just remember that we are all human beings, & are entitled to free thought & respect, & that hostility & insults are unnecessary & counter-productive.

That being said, I think these mods have everyones interests in mind, & we need to let them find an equilibrium, I may still be a fairly young redditor & subscriber here, (approximately 5 months now) but in that time I have seen a lot of change & think I'm entitled to say these small changes aren't negative to the sub.

The trolling issue is tricky for me and here is why:

Im profoundly jaded and nihilistic and so I tend to be heavily sarcastic about shit I have no control over. Its my way of dealing with the incredibly fucked up system we find ourselves in. I worry that my sarcasm will be construed as trolling when, in fact, I am being genuinely sarcastic.

not sure if he's trolling or being sarcastic :-/

Oh sure, sudden rule change. I sense a conspiracy.

Cool. Clean this place up.

This subreddit is dead.

[deleted]

I think if you watch the film "Borat" you will have an understanding.

The 11 rules of a free thinking subreddit ;-)

shhhit, my man, pff, s word pa'lease, yo.yo my s word, we jus be bein' politically correct, we not want to be offending s words

Accusing another of being a troll or a shill is considered an attack

Well, shit, there goes 99% of the population.

There is a massive difference between having a good argument and spouting hate speech.

55% like it! SovereignMan has the Vote!

yippiee...

Rule #2 is Jack Booting bullshit and the most damning change to this sub!

Am I some snot nosed shit that has to whine to the mods that my feelers are hurt!

Another damned cluster-fuck!

Dream harder, reddit!

Rule 2 now applies to all other rules instead of just Rule 1.

So then by "reporting" someone you are in violation of rule #2?

Yeah. My bad. I didnt read it completely. Makes much more sense now. Thanks.

[deleted]

These changes are perfect. Thanks mods.

Besides having issues with troll/shill accusations myself. I've read many, many users say the same. Especially new people who are curious about this subreddit. Whether it's from paranoid users or other genuine shills wanting to sabotage this sub in any way.

I guess there has to be some leeway in the rule. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you should be allowed to write a short summary of a user's account (like age and activity) and imply that he or she has an ulterior agenda.

Nice to see someone with a similar view point.

High five Mods

I have an inkling as to why you might be pleased.

[deleted]

[deleted]

[deleted]

Exactly.

Recently there has been a group of vigilantes that, in their quest to make things better, have been derailing discussions and starting huge flame wars.

Aww. Now I have to go make grandma sad. She's been knitting me a mask for the last few days. Could you send her some flowers? Just kidding. All my grandparents are dead.

Don't take this the wrong way, I'm not trolling you.

I know who you are. I like you. Rather than be reasonable people and make reasonable decisions, we should just make up even more flawed "rules" to justify unreasonable decisions.

Honestly I've made it a point whenever criticism is leveled against me to ask all the mods to NOT REMOVE it. To allow people to voice their criticism.

Of course if you want to make a criticism against a mod, please do it in a mature fashion without a string of insults and slurs. there is constructive criticism and then there is all out witch hunting.

All that dude does is troll here. Anyone posting bullshit here and then "reporting back" over there should get the boot whether a rule existed or not.

yeah its pretty much a graveyard of logical fallacies and personal attacks.

Okay fair enough no posting of accusations which can't be proven.

Would the moderators be open to the idea however of viewing "I think this person is a troll/shill" submission when they meet a certain requirement such as a defined number of examples which are logically supported expositions of their shilling?

This could easily be done by a group of mods who could be held to scrutiny by having to post the results of the case when it indeed turns out that the user is a shill/troll.

This process leading to a ban is not unfair nor is it wrong-doing towards those users who are provable shills/trolls as they are inherently acting against the well being of this subreddit.

I am not sure how else we would be able to effectively fix this situation.

Also, the three day waiting does not solve the issue of shills/trolls creating a bunch of shill/troll accounts, are you kidding me?

That "entry barrier" fails to accomplish its' purpose.

I like the 'no calling shill' rule. I hate that word and I constantly get commends like, "well you're a shill" ... seriously? I have a different opinion. You gonna accuse everyone of having a different opinion of being a shill? Just childish. You don't like my reasoning, tell everyone why.

The golden rule: don't be a dick.

i have repeatedly posted questions about rule 10 throughout my time here. they've all been removed or downvoted to hell.

i've always thought it fishy that this place for free thinkers should be censored in any way at all.

and here we are. mods telling us not to talk about certain things in the comments.

How are you defining trolling?

The mods are making a mistake on this.

There's no proof anyone is a troll or a shill. It's mostly just a matter of opinion which is okay. Their punishment is calling them a troll or a shill. You're saying there's no naming and shaming now. Now they can do what they want?

But what next? No articles submitted unless there is proof? This is equally against the ethos of /r/conspiracy.

Sounds like me around 8th grade lol. I just don't see public school benefiting kids anymore, but they have to go since the "american way" means both parents work. We need to get back to old ways. 1 parent home, teaching kids etc.

Hijacking the top comment to announce /r/ConspiracyNoRules

A sub with no rules to discuss what you want about conspiracies. You can even come there to attack users or call people shills. But I would prefer if you conduct yourself in a civilized manner as we do not need rules right...

fuck, well its the last nail in reddits coffin, we knew it couldnt last forever... time to find another source for the news nerds, ive heard of a firmware version you can slap on chrome cast to give you your own channel, that other people can watch....This might hold some promise.

meaning evidence that they are paid or have a personal interest

How is a sustained comment history monofocused towards corrupting threads in /r/conspiracy not evidence of this? Personal interest literally motivates everything you do.