Good post, I like how you sourced what you said. Not enough people do that on here.

Seconded, quality post OP.

We need more posts like this so we can save the sources/links and use them to inform the people who need to be spoon-fed information too uncomfortable for their sleeping brains.

Certainly. sourcing posts like this should be the gold standard we aspire to.

That irks me to the core.

When people won't take 5 minutes to even look to see if conspiracies may have credibility.

I think a lot of the time they choose to avoid it, because they just want to keep being selfish and living how they want.

Best gay unicorn ever.

Great summary. There should be a lot more here, like the omitted stiffeners, lack of access to their computer model, and much more.

This thing has been dragging on for too long, and the sooner the truth movement sues NIST for malpractice, the better.

This is a great thread. Hatchet, I like how you pointed out the omitted stiffeners. I have a video where a member of AE911Truth points out that he is surprised to find that NIST says there are no shear studs on the steel girders in the composite floor deck slabs. I worked with this guy. Edit: well here I am going to post here what I had posted in a similar thread: (don't miss this or Part 2; Ron is very meticulous in his descriptions of his requests of NIST and the responses he got back, and also why he feels the way he does about NIST's findings)

For an in-depth look at what one of the members of AE911Truth feels about World Trade Center 7, digest this interview with him: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5-teRFFybY That is Part 1 of 2 parts. I worked with Ron at a structural engineering firm in Santa Rosa, California for four years. He is a veteran structural engineer, extremely smart and measured in everything he does in his profession. There are many others like him, who have joined AE911Truth. Check out what he says; he approaches the 3 towers with the perspective of a professional structural engineer. He is very compelling with the approach he has brought to the question of WTC 7. He feels NIST didn't properly evaluate many things that happened that day. Also, NIST admits free fall of WTC 7 for 8 seconds, but never properly explains it, according to his professional opinion as a structural engineer.

This is going to sound really weird, but you have no idea how much your comment means to me. I've been debating Judy Wood supporters today here who drove me mad. I've also debated a guy in this thread (which you can see towards the bottom of the page) about the thermite findings which doesn't lead anywhere.

The shills and nihilists are getting to me and I'm losing motivation to keep it up online.

To the point, I've seen mr. Brookman's segment on AE911Truth before. Everyone who is involved with that organization has my unconditional love and support, so there's not enough praise I can give the gentleman for simply participating.

So anyway, sorry for this weirdness, but thanks for your comment, a lot. It definitely helped to keep my sanity in check.

Not weird! I totally appreciate how you feel, I've been there before :) My motivation wavers, only because I am buried at my engineering firm and I have a 4 1/2 year old daughter. Well actually, it waivers also from the people who are so combative against 9/11 truthers. It's frustrating, isn't it??

AE911Truth is truly amazing. I am so happy knowing Ron and feeling that I can vouch for him. I remember the two of us being really alarmed, and talking about his findings during the day. It wore on him and me, but he stayed up nights for a long time, looking and searching. I am very proud of him.

I am really happy that I gave you some pep to keep your sanity in check. You know, besides the physical/elemental properties of the collapse being very suspicious, the other aspect of WTC 7 has been really haunting me: The tenants in the building. The fact that case files for the Savings & Loan scandal from the 80's, ENRON, and other Securities & Exchange Committee case files/documents are now gone. It is stuff like that I am really bothered with.

Because the physical stuff...I mean c'mon, the building was not engulfed in flame, but it fell directly in to its own basement in 8 seconds. That was controlled demolition. And the thermite found on the dust: the lady artist who made a sculpture of the dust when people were allowed back to their apartments, and she gives the dust to a scientist and he finds thermitic material. C'mon. Anyway..:sigh: pouring a glass of wine now.

Yeah, the physics behind it has always been my main motivator. Wars come and go, money ebbs and flows, power rises and falls, but you cannot fuck with physics, the scientific method, and truth-seeking. That's eternal and universally applicable, from the falling apple to the demolished high-rise. I will not only shun the official story, but fight actively against it, because it's a lesion in our most sacred endeavor.

Thanks again.

If you like tests, experiments, here is a real one:

Jonathan Cole: Eutectic steel study building 7 WTC 9/11/01

And there are videos of NIST lying. It's not just they chose the wrong explanation, they deliberately lied. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lihj-Kz9wjY

The Ultimate proof NIST is lying about WTC7

The world record for tallest building ever demolished by explosives is 26 stories. That building required 12 people working full time for 24 days to wire. It needed 4118 charges placed in 1100 locations, 2800 pounds of explosive and 36000 feet of detonating wire. The men that wired it had unfettered access to a completely empty building and had to take out walls to gain access to support columns.

WTC7 was 21 stories taller than this world record demolition.

• How was the building wired up without anyone knowing? Support columns were buried behind drywall, desks, cubicles and office equipment.

• How did the most involved and elaborate demolition wiring job in history survive fires burning on 12 floors? Wire tends to stop working when it's burnt to a crisp. This doesn't even take into account the damage done by falling debris.

In order for your theory to have any legs at all, you need to explain how a building that would have shattered the world record for demolition by 21 stories was wired up surreptitiously without disturbing any of the employees or alerting security, then set on fire for 7 hours, then still went off without a hitch.

Once you do that, you can take on the FDNY calling the collapse 2 hours ahead of time...

Twenty-Five Rules of Disinformation

19. Ignore proof presented, demand impossible proofs. This is perhaps a variant of the 'play dumb' rule. Regardless of what material may be presented by an opponent in public forums, claim the material irrelevant and demand proof that is impossible for the opponent to come by (it may exist, but not be at his disposal, or it may be something which is known to be safely destroyed or withheld, such as a murder weapon.) In order to completely avoid discussing issues, it may be required that you to categorically deny and be critical of media or books as valid sources, deny that witnesses are acceptable, or even deny that statements made by government or other authorities have any meaning or relevance.

OP is suggesting that controlled demolition is as valid an explanation as fire for the collapses without offering a shred of evidence. I'm asking very logical questions that the CD crowd needs to be able to explain at some point if they ever want to be taken seriously.

NIST report used photos, videos, blueprints and scientific data to come up with a plausible explanation. They consulted hundreds of scientists from dozens of different disciplines to do this.

OP is suggesting that controlled demolition is as valid an explanation as fire for the collapses without offering a shred of evidence.

NIST didn't offer a shred of evidence either. I made this perfectly clear right in the first sentence; Theory =/= evidence.

I'm asking very logical questions that the CD crowd needs to be able to explain at some point if they ever want to be taken seriously.

You are asking what you assume to be "logical questions" by avoiding the fact that NIST fabricated false data in order to sustain the collapse theory while still supporting their theory at the same time. I don't understand how someone can say this and still demand others to be serious.

NIST report used photos, videos, blueprints and scientific data to come up with a plausible explanation. They consulted hundreds of scientists from dozens of different disciplines to do this.

Also the same photos, videos, blueprints and scientific data that the demolition theory uses, except that in that theory you don't have the fabricated 1.5s, biased invalid audio tests and incomplete unproved model simulations.

This post is about NIST producing a fraudulent research, please keep in topic or refrain from derailing the thread.

Just a warning, don't bother arguing with u/Trax123.

All this person does is defend the official 9/11 story. Scroll through their history, see for yourself.

He also spends a good deal of time posting in r/conspiratard.

And finally, he votes r/conspiracy as his most hated subreddit and believes it is:

Like diving into a cesspool of ignorance.

source

Yes, I know. Looked through his comment history just now. Can't let him comment without responding though, since the mods have no basis to ban him.

Yeah, I don't mind responding to him either.

The added comments give this post a higher overall score and make it more likely to be seen on the subreddit front page.

Its a win/win.

NIST didn't offer a shred of evidence either. I made this perfectly clear right in the first sentence; Theory =/= evidence.

They used photos, videos, blueprints and the scientific properties of the structural components of wtc7 to come up with a valid theory endorsed by hundreds of scientists that helped put it together. They investigated the possibility of CD and found no evidence at all to support it.

You are asking what you assume to be "logical questions" by avoiding the fact that NIST fabricated false data in order to sustain the collapse theory while still supporting their theory at the same time. I don't understand how someone can say this and still demand others to be serious.

NIST didn't fabricate anything.

The type of demolition you are suggesting would have been completely unprecedented in the history of demolition. That type of insinuation requires evidence, something sorely lacking. I'm just pointing out that your pet theory has holes large enough to drive a 767 through.

Also the same photos, videos, blueprints and scientific data that the demolition theory uses, except that in that theory you don't have the fabricated 1.5s, biased invalid audio tests and incomplete unproved model simulations.

I've seen multiple views of wtc7 collapsing, and not a single one has the concussive explosions common in all other controlled demolitions. These videos all have line of sight with the building, which means sound could travel unobstructed to the cameraman, yet we hear nothing.

So not only is your world record sized demolition done completely clandestinely in a fully occupied building, not only does it work flawlessly after being burnt to a crisp by fire, but it goes off without sounding like any other CD in recorded history.

That's pretty amazing.

NIST didn't fabricate anything.

From my post:

1. However, they included an extra 1.5s to their "stages" that does not exist.

2. More here: Chapter 12: WTC Global Collapse Analysis

The type of demolition you are suggesting would have been completely unprecedented in the history of demolition.

The type of fire collapse you are suggesting would have been completely unprecedented in the history of fire collapses.

That kind of argument is an absolute empirical fallacy and doesn't contribute for anything. I don't understand how people think this way of argumenting is absolute proof that they are right when it can so easily be turned around and prove them wrong.

As of now you have confirmed your intention of derailing this thread by ignoring the facts that work against you. I will not continue with this.

The type of fire collapse you are suggesting would have been completely unprecedented in the history of fire collapses.

That kind of argument is an absolute empirical fallacy and doesn't contribute for anything. I don't understand how people think this way of argumenting is absolute proof that they are right when it can so easily be turned around and prove them wrong.

Um... I could easily quote this response back to you and it would apply to your argument perfectly.

As of now you have confirmed your intention of derailing this thread by ignoring the facts that work against you. I will not continue with this.

I'm responding to the claims you're making.

Both explanations for collapse would be without precedent.

Only one requires a ton of moving parts, fireproof wiring, magical silent charges, thousands of blind employees and security guards and cameras, and thousands of scientists intent on covering up the massacre of Americans.

The other just requires fire.

And once your questions were broken down piece by piece and explained to you, you would then ask how it was possible to keep it a secret.

And once that was explained to you, you would come up with another question, etc... ad nauseum.

Explain how a world record demolition was done completely clandestinely in a fully occupied building, then set on fire, then miraculously went off without a hitch. I'm all ears.

Yeah, because I clearly have the time to explain to you how the most powerful government in the world pulled off the biggest conspiracy in history.

You do realize that if you read a book or two about real historical events, you will find out that governments are pretty capable. And that the average Joe Six-Pack is fooled every time into thinking they aren't.

Until enough time goes by and the truth comes out.

Yeah, because I clearly have the time to explain to you how the most powerful government in the world pulled off the biggest conspiracy in history.

You couldn't explain it to me because it's fictional.

The only fiction is the BS you swallowed as truth even though you watched 3 buildings crumble to the ground at free-fall speeds.

If you knew absolutely nothing and then watched those videos, you would call them controlled demolitions and you know it.

The collapses were not at free fall speed.

So you didn't even read the post you are commenting on. Got it.

The case of the free-fall speeds.

For a long time the conspiracy theorists were insisting that wtc7 collapsed at free-fall speeds, something that anyone can verify for themselves. NIST eventually changed their report in order to admit that indeed it did collapse at free-fall speeds, because they knew they couldn't avoid this fact.

Problem is that they added something else to their report so that they would remain with the fire collapse theory and avoid the demolition theory. According to them, the free-fall speeds is perfectly compatible with their findings except that this is purely a lie

OP was wrong.

Wtc7 took 13 seconds from the time the east penthouse collapsed. The facade, which was nothing more than a shell when it came down, took 5.4 second to fall 18 stories. That's 40 percent slower than free fall, and completely ignores the fact that the interior of the building came down 7 seconds earlier.

(source)[http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/factsheet/wtc_qa_082108.cfm]

The analyses of the video (both the estimation of the instant the roofline began to descend and the calculated velocity and acceleration of a point on the roofline) revealed three distinct stages characterizing the 5.4 seconds of collapse:

Stage 1 (0 to 1.75 seconds): acceleration less than that of gravity (i.e., slower than free fall).
Stage 2 (1.75 to 4.0 seconds): gravitational acceleration (free fall)
Stage 3 (4.0 to 5.4 seconds): decreased acceleration, again less than that of gravity

........

Stage 2 is free fall. And of course the entire thing won't be free fall because it is not a brick falling through the air. It is an entire building collapsing in on itself.

Pay more attention to what I wrote in my post: The entire 18 floors fell at 3.87s (pure free-fall duration), not 5.4s (+/- 0.1s).

NIST fabricated a 1.5s start time that does not exist. Hope you appreciate this, if not then I am sorry.

I definitely do.

Unfortunately, I couldn't find a source that someone stubborn like Trax123 would accept.

It's simple, use the same video that NIST used. Anyone can do their calculations by themselves - even him - and see that NIST's time is a lie.

Problem is, that user has already ignored this simple fact 3 times now.

That is th the facade. The interior collapsed 7 seconds prior.

That part is also in the NIST report, likely on the same page.

How was the building wired up without anyone knowing? Support columns were buried behind drywall, desks, cubicles and office equipment.

Night shifts.

How did the most involved and elaborate demolition wiring job in history survive fires burning on 12 floors? Wire tends to stop working when it's burnt to a crisp. This doesn't even take into account the damage done by falling debris.

Radio transmitted ignitions.

Boy, that was easy.

Actually, there is a theory about how the buildings were wired. Basically, the youngest Bush brother, Marvin Bush, was close with the CEO of a company called Securacom. In the summer of 2001, Securacom won a contract to upgrade the communications systems in WTC. They spent considerable time inside the different buildings of the WTC. I remember finding eyewitness reports from people who worked in the WTC during this time and they would write (paraphrasing): "Yeah, floors 30 thru 34 were locked down no access for a couple weeks" or something like that. If I remember correctly, I found this information in the video 9/11 Mysteries. I do not know if it is confirmed. I have found trails on the internet about Securacom's involvement in the comms upgrade, but at this point I don't have this information at hand.

I believe you. The elevator modernizatons by: "Ace Elevator Company" should also be taken into account. I only said "night shifts" as a simple rebuttal to show his flawed thinking. The charges could have been planted in a million different ways, and people who saw them during the day would have assumed they were maintenance anyway.

Night shifts.

Night shifts that moved entire offices, desks, computers, cubicles and carpet, then destroyed drywall to get to support columns, then wired those columns, then re-drywalled and re-painted the walls, then put everything back exactly how it was without a trace and left no evidence?

I'm guessing you've never done building renovations.

Radio transmitted ignitions.

Boy, that was easy.

So they wired up an entire building to blow with no detonation wire at all?

Night shifts that moved entire offices, desks, computers, cubicles and carpet, then destroyed drywall to get to support columns, then wired those columns, then re-drywalled and re-painted the walls, then put everything back exactly how it was without a trace and left no evidence?

... and removed cages, mountain lions, tabernacles, tanks, vaults, Cinderella's carriage, etc. Unless the core columns were positioned around the elevator shafts.

So they wired up an entire building to blow with no detonation wire at all?

In your world there is no such thing as a remote car key, which first started appearing in 1982 commercially. Such technology, much wow.

Its okay, the user Trax123 will keep demanding more. He has such a small world-view, that it is literally impossible for him to accept that the world is full of such possibilities.

You could source them all the technology required and he would demand pictures of it in the actual building.

And even if these pictures actually came out, he would say they were photoshopped.

And even if you proved the photos weren't shopped, he would demand proof that Osama Bin Laden didn't put in the explosives. And probably spout off some pseudo-intellectual bullshit about Occam's Razor.

Etc...

That's a great analysis of their derailment. This thread was about NIST's fraud, but he wanted it to be about the usual bullshit about the planning.

I'm not intimidated by it the slightest though.

You could source them all the technology required and he would demand pictures of it in the actual building

Please source it. I asked because I want to know how this would have been possible. What you guys are suggesting has never been attempted before, not even in empty buildings by world leaders in CD. It would have been no less unprecedented than a collapse due to fire.

And even if these pictures actually came out, he would say they were photoshopped.

There are no pictures, that's my point.

The idea that the average person could source or know the most up-to-date military technology is truly laughable.

So there is no evidence at all that this tech you are offering as an explanation even exists.

Why not just say it was magic? You'd have just as much evidence for that explanation as you do for your current one.

Yes, top-secret military technology MUST not exist.

Because everyone knows that the first thing you do is tell the entire world about it.

... and removed cages, mountain lions, tabernacles, tanks, vaults, Cinderella's carriage, etc. Unless the core columns were positioned around the elevator shafts.

So they managed to have a collapse that looked "identical" to a controlled demolition, with a "symmetrical" fall at nearly "free fall" speeds, and they did this without severing the perimeter columns?

So it looked exactly like a controlled demolition except that it wasn't done like any controlled demolition ever attempted. Gotcha.

In your world there is no such thing as a remote car key, which first started appearing in 1982 commercially. Such technology, much wow.

Go set your car on fire for 4 hours and let us know how well your keyless entry remote works after that.

Delicate wireless electronics tend to stop working when you set them on fire. Source: I'm a human being with a functioning brain. I also work with tech for a living.

So they managed to have a collapse that looked "identical" to a controlled demolition, with a "symmetrical" fall at nearly "free fall" speeds, and they did this without severing the perimeter columns?

That is so cute. You didn't know that NIST's claim is that a single column dislodged and "from that moment, collapse was inevitable"? Let's hear you explain that first, buddy.

So it looked exactly like a controlled demolition except that it wasn't done like any controlled demolition ever attempted. Gotcha.

The presence of thermite and extreme temperatures indicate otherwise. Or are you gonna brush off this physical evidence as BS?

Go set your car on fire for 4 hours and let us know how well your keyless entry remote works after that. Delicate wireless electronics tend to stop working when you set them on fire. Source: I'm a human being with a functioning brain.

Cool story bro. Except the fires weren't uniformly spread throughout the entire building and steel doesn't melt from a carbon-based fire. If you think otherwise, don't ever do this.

I also work with tech for a living.

Hopefully you don't give people crucial recommendations, since you're so unbelievably incompetent about our physical world.

That is so cute. You didn't know that NIST's claim is that a single column dislodged and "from that moment, collapse was inevitable"? Let's hear you explain that first, buddy.

As soon as you explain your miraculous wireless fireproof clandestine detonation, I'll get right on that.

The presence of thermite and extreme temperatures indicate otherwise. Or are you gonna brush off this physical evidence as BS?

Are the group that found thermite ever planning on having their results independently verified? Nearly 3 years have passed and they've refused multiple requests to study their sample. What are they hiding?

Other studies have found not a trace of thermite.

Cool story bro. Except the fires weren't uniformly spread throughout the entire building and steel doesn't melt from a carbon-based fire.

Way to miss the point entirely. Fire fucks up delicate electronics. Fire cooks cabling. Set your car on fire and let me know how well the wireless receiver for your keyless entry system works.

Hopefully you don't give people crucial recommendations, since you're so unbelievably incompetent about our physical world.

Sure thing pal. Out of the 2 of us, I'm the only one who seems to know that wiring and electronics tend to malfunction when burnt to a fucking crisp.

As soon as you explain your miraculous wireless fireproof clandestine detonation, I'll get right on that.

Is a homemade one sufficient? What a miracle, right? For someone working with tech, you sure don't know shit about anything. (More)

Are the group that found thermite ever planning on having their results independently verified? Nearly 3 years have passed and they've refused multiple requests to study their sample. What are they hiding? Other studies have found not a trace of thermite.

You mean how NIST contractor James Millette fraudulently fell short? Explained by Kevin Ryan here. Original garbage paper here.

Sure thing pal. Out of the 2 of us, I'm the only one who seems to know that wiring and electronics tend to malfunction when burnt to a fucking crisp.

If you show me evidence that the fires had spread throughout the building, then I'll believe you. Since you're making that ridiculous claim, you should back that up with sources/evidence.

This discussion wont lead anywhere, because you're more inclined to bicker rather than keep an open mind. You claim that all the core-columns could be severed without the building falling if the outer columns stood intact, whereas NIST claims a single core-column could be dislodged and collapse would be inevitable. And you want to brush that under the rug? Please crawl back under your moss.

Is a homemade one sufficient? What a miracle, right? For someone working with tech, you sure don't know shit about anything. (More)

You missed the part where the receiver would have been burnt to a crisp.

You mean how NIST contractor James Millette fraudulently fell short? Explained by Kevin Ryan here. Original garbage paper here.

I asked a simple question. Are they planning on making their sample available for independent verification? For a group that supposedly found ironclad evidence of wrongdoing they sure aren't in a big hurry to do anything about it. I wonder why.

If you show me evidence that the fires had spread throughout the building, then I'll believe you. Since you're making that ridiculous claim, you should back that up with sources/evidence.

There are photos and videos showing that fire. It was on 12 floors.

You missed the part where the receiver would have been burnt to a crisp.

You missed the part where you should give us proof that the building was engulfed in fire, reaching the core columns.

I asked a simple question. Are they planning on making their sample available for independent verification? For a group that supposedly found ironclad evidence of wrongdoing they sure aren't in a big hurry to do anything about it. I wonder why.

What's there to verify? NIST has access to the red-gray chips to verify it themselves, but they didn't test it sufficiently. You can verify the engineers' results by reading their report. Do they have access to all the equipment? Yes, so that's verified. Did NIST use all the methods that were required to verify the red-gray chips? No, fraud. Kevin Ryan explains it best here:

As he worked to debunk the WTC thermite research, Millette was still unable to find any iron microspheres. But he did claim to have finally found the red-gray chips. Curiously, he did not attempt to replicate the testing that would determine if those chips were thermitic.

... Millette perfomed an XEDS analysis for elemental composition but failed to do any of the other tests including BSE, DSC, the flame test, the MEK test, or measurement of the chip resistivity. Having inexplicably “ashed” the chips at 400 °C in a muffle furnace, thereby proving that they were not the materials of interest (which ignite at 430 °C), Millette ignored the remainder of the study he had set out to replicate. Because he did not do the DSC test, he could not do XEDS of the spheres formed from the chips. Since he had still not found spheres in the dust, he could not test those and this allowed him to ignore the testing of spheres from the thermite reaction.

Source

FRAUD!

There are photos and videos showing that fire. It was on 12 floors.

Even if that was true, it's [12/47 ≈ 0.26 =>] 26% of the entire building. The whole building wasn't really on fire, as you claim. In the worst case scenario, 74% of the charges would remain intact according to you.

You chose to ignore the single-column collapse once again, yet you keep responding.

What's there to verify?

That their results are legitimate? That their science is sound? That they didn't make any mistakes?

There is no good reason for them to refuse independent verification, yet they've been asked for their sample and they've declined multiple requests. Where on earth do you think scientists operate that way?

... Millette perfomed an XEDS analysis for elemental composition but failed to do any of the other tests including BSE, DSC, the flame test, the MEK test, or measurement of the chip resistivity. Having inexplicably “ashed” the chips at 400 °C in a muffle furnace, thereby proving that they were not the materials of interest (which ignite at 430 °C), Millette ignored the remainder of the study he had set out to replicate. Because he did not do the DSC test, he could not do XEDS of the spheres formed from the chips. Since he had still not found spheres in the dust, he could not test those and this allowed him to ignore the testing of spheres from the thermite reaction.

I'll let Millette explain:

That's correct. We did cook the chips to release the particles from epoxy bindings for further study, but not to measure ignition temperature of energy release. It was not necessary to take this step, because my chemical tests proved that the chips could not be thermitic in any way. I would have just been testing the ignition point and energy release of a paint chip and that would not have been necessary.

The Millette study requested samples of Harrit's "thermite" dust and was declined. Again, what were they hiding?

Laughing my ass off! How hilarious that you don't recognize that he admits to insufficient testing in his response:

... We did cook the chips to release the particles from epoxy bindings for further study, but not to measure ignition temperature of energy release...

In order to see if the chips are explosive or incendiary, you have to know the energy input and output of the system. Instead, he made an "oopsy" while trying to release the epoxy bindings at 400°C. Doesn't that count as a "mistake", as you claimed Harrit and co. made?

You're such a cutie-pie. I want to pinch your cheeks.

The Millette study requested samples of Harrit's "thermite" dust and was declined. Again, what were they hiding?

This is thrown around a lot by debunkers, yet I can't find any sources for it. So I'll just assume you and JREF pulled that one deep out of your asses.

You missed the part where his chemical testing confirmed the chips were not thermetic in any way.

This is thrown around a lot by debunkers, yet I can't find any sources for it. So I'll just assume you and JREF pulled that one deep out of your asses.

Chris Mohr from JREF is the one who requested the chips. You can ask him directly if you like.

And I didn't claim Harrit and co. made any mistakes, so you can stop with the strawman.

How would anyone know if they made mistakes since they haven't allowed anyone to examine their sample?

Again, WHAT ARE THEY HIDING? These guys supposedly have EARTH SHATTERING EVIDENCE of a government conspiracy to slaughter thousands of Americans...and they won't let anyone see it????

Imagine how that goes over in a court of law.

"Your honor, I have ironclad evidence that the accused is the murderer. I won't let a third party examine this evidence though, you'll just have to take my word for it."

First of all, who the fuck is Chris Mohr to think that he is entitled to a very limited supply of this material? Guess what? The rest of it has been sent off to China for God knows what.

You missed the part where his chemical testing confirmed the chips were not thermetic in any way.

Am I talking to a wall here? I just showed that he skipped the most crucial test, unrelated to the chemical content.

You keep on ignoring most of my points, jumping to new ones, and presenting garbage without having any noteworthy knowledge of even NIST's official fairy tale. It's unfortunate that there isn't someone else more competent and knowledgeable than you who is writing this stuff. At least give me a challenge.

Am I talking to a wall here? I just showed that he skipped the most crucial test, unrelated to the chemical content.

Nope, the chemical content proved that the sample Millette was testing was not thermetic. Thermite has a very definite chemical composition. Millette tested his sample and found that it's chemical composition was nowhere near thermite. At that point, once you've ruled out thermite as the source for the chip, why would more testing be needed?

Got it now, or should I speak slower and use smaller words?

And I still have yet to see a reason for Harrit and his group to not submit their sample for verification. What are they waiting for? What are they hiding?

Keep gargling that diarrhea, and spitting it out.

In summary, red/gray chips with the same morphological characteristics, elemental spectra and magnetic attraction as those shown in Harrit et al.1 were found in WTC dust samples from four different locations than those examined by Harrit, et al.1 The gray side is consistent with carbon steel. The red side contains the elements: C, O, Al, Si, and Fe with small amounts of other elements such as Ti and Ca. Based on the infrared absorption (FTIR) data, the C/O matrix material is an epoxy resin. Based on the optical and electron microscopy data, the Fe/O particles are an iron oxide pigment consisting of crystalline grains in the 100-200 nm range and the Al/Si particles are kaolin clay plates that are less than a micrometer thick. There is no evidence of individual elemental aluminum particles detected by PLM, SEM-EDS, or TEM-SAED-EDS, during the analyses of the red layers in their original form or after sample preparation by ashing, thin sectioning or following MEK treatment.

You keep trying to win me over with this single test. Millette not only didn't do the enthalpy test once, but at least twice. You want to test if something is explosive? Ignite the motherfucker!

I've heard this Al-Si kaolin bullshit argument before. Harrit and Jones tested it to confirm that they weren't chemically bound.

It must be tiring to repeat the same BS all the time. I'd love to know how long you've been at this and your motives, but I'm not deluded enough to think that you would honestly share your story. It must be really tiresome though, knowing that you have to cover up with these pseudo-scientific garbage, which you don't even understand yourself.

You keep trying to win me over with this single test. Millette not only didn't do the enthalpy test once, but at least twice. You want to test if something is explosive? Ignite the motherfucker!

Why would he bother igniting paint chips? That's what his test showed the chips were. The chips were not thermite.

The Millette test isn't the point. The point is that Harrit and company haven't submitted their earth shattering evidence for independent verification. I have yet to hear you suggest a reason why.

It must be tiring to repeat the same BS all the time.

You tell me. You're continually parroting the results of a test where the testers refuse to share their materials with anyone else.

It must be really tiresome though, knowing that you have to cover up with these pseudo-scientific garbage, which you don't even understand yourself.

LOL. Pseudoscience, hey? How many scientists claim to make an earth shattering discovery, only to sit on that discovery for years without ever attempting to have it independently verified. REAL scientists are open to having their work reviewed, they don't run from it like cowards. Wake me when your thermite flunkies grow a set of balls and submit their sample for review. Until then, they might as well have claimed to find fucking Kryptonite in the dust.

Why would he bother igniting paint chips? That's what his test showed the chips were. The chips were not thermite.

Oh God, this is beyond ignorant. "Hey, let's test if this material is exothermic... naaah, no need." That's scientific to you?

The Millette test isn't the point. The point is that Harrit and company haven't submitted their earth shattering evidence for independent verification. I have yet to hear you suggest a reason why.

So they can do the same BS "test" again, where they burn it without checking the energy instead? I'm also sure that if someone claimed to conduct a true investigation, they would submit the very best materials they have. Until then, scrubs like Chris Mohr can keep drooling.

... Wake me when your thermite flunkies grow a set of balls and submit their sample for review...

Something tells me that you'll keep on moving that goalpost ad absurdum anyway.

Oh God, this is beyond ignorant. "Hey, let's test if this material is exothermic... naaah, no need." That's scientific to you?

Let me put it this way. Let's say there are 10 tests needed to confirm the sample is thermic, but tests 1,2 and 3 rule thermite out completely. At that point, you've got your result.

So they can do the same BS "test" again, where they burn it without checking the energy instead? I'm also sure that if someone claimed to conduct a true investigation, they would submit the very best materials they have. Until then, scrubs like Chris Mohr can keep drooling.

So you're ok with scientist sitting on explosive evidence without ever verifying it?

Nope, no confirmation bias there at all.

Something tells me that you'll keep on moving that goalpost ad absurdum anyway.

Moving goalposts is your specialty, not mine. I'd simply like a second set of eyes to examine this earth shattering evidence you keep yammering on about, but Harrit and his pals are too fucking cowardly to submit it to an independent body.

3 years they've sat on that sample and accomplished exactly nothing. You truthers should be up in arms, enraged at the inactivity. At the very least, an intellectually curious person would wonder what the fuck they were waiting for. The debunkers have at least paid for their own study, a study that used samples WIDELY available for other scientists to verify. When can we expect you guys to sack the fuck up?

Let me put it this way. Let's say there are 10 tests needed to confirm the sample is thermic, but tests 1,2 and 3 rule thermite out completely. At that point, you've got your result.

You're admitting to scientific malpractice. How anyone can say that without shame is beyond me.

He didn't just do it once. When he was criticized for it, he tested the chips again, without doing the enthalpy test for a second time.

You want to know what I think? He did the test, saw a spike and confirmed the exothermic reaction, but swept the evidence under the rug.

Moving goalposts is your specialty, not mine.

I'll make sure that this will be my last interaction with you. You're obviously too biased.

I'd simply like a second set of eyes to examine this earth shattering evidence you keep yammering on about, but Harrit and his pals are too fucking cowardly to submit it to an independent body.

Only Chris Mohr seems to have been denied this material as you claim. Can't seem to find anything on Mohr except that he writes for Skeptic Magazine. I wouldn't trust him with my dirty boxers, let alone the very limited dust samples.

3 years they've sat on that sample and accomplished exactly nothing.

That's a disingenuous claim. You're not stupid enough to think that the truth movement are working in an even playing-ground.

You're admitting to scientific malpractice. How anyone can say that without shame is beyond me.

You're hysterical.

And horrifically scientifically illiterate. Please don't breed.

You want to know what I think?

Not especially.

I'll make sure that this will be my last interaction with you. You're obviously too biased.

Oh please tell me that's a promise.

Only Chris Mohr seems to have been denied this material as you claim. Can't seem to find anything on Mohr except that he writes for Skeptic Magazine. I wouldn't trust him with my dirty boxers, let alone the very limited dust samples.

Mohr put the Millette test together. Harrit and Jones should have submitted samples to independent bodies YEARS ago! How are you not getting this??? When you have evidence of a CRIME, you don't sit on it like impotent assholes for 5 years!

That's a disingenuous claim. You're not stupid enough to think that the truth movement are working in an even playing-ground.

You're right, it was disingenuous... It's been 5 years, not 3. How do you clowns ever expect to get another investigation if you sit on evidence for 5 fucking years without ever having it verified???

Just a warning, don't bother arguing with u/Trax123.

All this person does is defend the official 9/11 story. Scroll through their history, see for yourself.

He also spends a good deal of time posting in r/conspiratard.

And finally, he votes r/conspiracy as his most hated subreddit and believes it is:

Like diving into a cesspool of ignorance.

source

wasn't WTC7 totally government owned ?

Nope:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tenants_in_Seven_World_Trade_Center

Most of it was taken up by Salomon Smith Barney, an investment banking firm.

• Salomon Smith Barney

An investment firm that was later abandoned the name due to a series of financial scandals in 2003.

So it is not a stretch to assume that the destruction of WTC7 bought them more time and conveniently erased evidence.

Lets also not conveniently forget the other tenants.

• Internal Revenue Service

• Department of Defense

• Central Intelligence Agency

• New York City Office of Emergency Management

• US Securities & Exchange Commission

an agency of the United States federal government. It holds primary responsibility for enforcing the federal securities laws and regulating the securities industry, the nation's stock and options exchanges, and other activities and organizations, including the electronic securities markets in the United States.

source

Another convenient location for a demolition, considering the market crash a few years later.

the agency routinely destroyed thousands of documents related to preliminary investigations of alleged crimes committed by Deutsche Bank, Goldman Sachs, Lehman Brothers, SAC Capital, and other financial companies involved in the Great Recession that the SEC was supposed to have been regulating.

source

And who could forget this tenant:

• U.S. Secret Service

Do you understand how many trillions of dollars changed hands due to the events triggered after 9/11?

You seem to be confusing a normal demolition team with a budget and timeline with one the biggest possible conspiracies in the history of mankind backed by a government with unlimited funds, technology that may never hit the private sector, and possible decades of planning.

Do you understand how many trillions of dollars changed hands due to the events triggered after 9/11?

Completely irrelevant.

You seem to be confusing a normal demolition team with a budget and timeline with one the biggest possible conspiracies in the history of mankind backed by a government with unlimited funds, technology that may never hit the private sector, and possible decades of planning.

Decades of planning? So much for pinning this on the Bush administration I guess.

Still no explanation for those 12 floors worth of burnt wires and charges working without a hitch, or how a building that was fully occupied for 30 plus years was able to be wired to that extent without a single person knowing about it.

How is trillions of dollars irrelevant? Do you even hear yourself?

That kind of money could very well be the most relevant motive that ever existed.

And who is pinning this on one Bush administration?

Maybe that shows your lack of insight into the complexity of this event. How long has the Bush dynasty been around? How many on the same players exist in various administrations going back decades?

12 floors worth of burnt wires and charges working without a hitch

An unlimited budget. People with the means to make it happen. The most powerful government in the world.

how a building that was fully occupied for 30 plus years

Plenty of time to plan it.

able to be wired

You have obviously never worked in a busy building. Let alone in NYC. Let alone in the financial district. Guess what? I have. Seeing building construction is about as alarming to the average person as seeing graffiti.

without a single person knowing about it.

How do you know nobody noticed something? Then you have to account for that person having brass balls. Being able to get media coverage. And then it going viral to the extent that someone like you hears about it. But even if that did happen, you wouldn't believe it. You would call the person a liar, a crazy, or someone who just wanted publicity.

How is trillions of dollars irrelevant? Do you even hear yourself?

Trillions of dollars does not change the burning properties of demolition charges or detonating wire. Trillions of dollars does not suddenly give thousands of employees of WTC7 amnesia when it comes to drywall being torn out to wire columns for detonation.

An unlimited budget. People with the means to make it happen. The most powerful government in the world.

I guess you can explain away the most massive logical holes with that sentence. What a vivid imagination.

You have obviously never worked in a busy building. Let alone in NYC. Let alone in the financial district. Guess what? I have. Seeing building construction is about as alarming to the average person as seeing graffiti.

I've worked in nothing but busy office buildings for 20 years. Ripping out drywall, ceiling, carpet, electrical and data cabling to get to the support structure of a building is a massive undertaking that would displace office workers for months. It's not something you could accomplish clandestinely, and then set on fucking fire for 7 hours before detonation.

What you're suggesting would be just as unprecedented as a building collapsing from fire.

How do you know nobody noticed something?

There is no proof of it. That's how. When I start seeing WTC7 employees come forward with stories of workers knocking out walls for months, then I'll have a reason to believe it.

So your debunk assumes that it is impossible for people to come in and replace drywall in front of other people who know absolutely jack-shit about construction.

If any normal employee was told that a team of people was re-wiring a building, they wouldn't even think twice about it.

You also assume it was done during work hours.

You also assume it wasn't done over a very long period of time.

You also assume that the people who came in were wearing suits with the words "WTC7 Demolition Team" printed on the back.

You have a narrow viewpoint of reality and a complete lack of understanding how the world works.

Have you ever heard the expression "fact is stranger than fiction"?

A principle that history proves thousands of times a day.

I haven't assumed a thing. That's where you're wrong.

So your debunk assumes that it is impossible for people to come in and replace drywall in front of other people who know absolutely jack-shit about construction.

Evidence that this happened? Shouldn't be too tough to find multiple wtc7 employees that would remember a massive project like that.

If any normal employee was told that a team of people was re-wiring a building, they wouldn't even think twice about it.

Rewiring does not include tearing the floors down to the support structure. Take it from a guy who's wired buildings dozens of times.

You also assume it was done during work hours.

I never said that at all.

You also assume it wasn't done over a very long period of time.

Didn't say that either.

You also assume that the people who came in were wearing suits with the words "WTC7 Demolition Team" printed on the back.

Nope, didn't assume that either.

You have a narrow viewpoint of reality and a complete lack of understanding how the world works.

I know that what you're suggesting has never been attempted in the history of demolition.

Shouldn't be too tough to find multiple wtc7 employees that would remember a massive project like that.

I am sure multiple employees have seen multiple massive projects occurring in the building. That is how most buildings in NYC work. It is not unusual.

And yeah, I am sure they will come forward and use the proper channels. Because using government channels to accuse the government of mass murder is very logical.

Rewiring does not include tearing the floors down to the support structure.

Well the average person doesn't know that and wouldn't bat an eye if they saw it.

I am sure multiple employees have seen multiple massive projects occurring in the building. That is how most buildings in NYC work. It is not unusual.

So, let's hear from them then.

You guys want an independent investigation done so badly, start doing some fucking investigating. Put your money where your mouth is.

Well the average person doesn't know that and wouldn't bat an eye if they saw it.

You're missing the point yet again. The building was fully occupied. Tearing it down to the support structure would involve displacing a massive number of employees. There is no evidence at all that it happened, and yes, the occupants of the building would certainly have noticed being uprooted while floors were torn apart.

Just a warning, don't bother arguing with u/Trax123.

All this person does is defend the official 9/11 story. Scroll through their history, see for yourself.

He also spends a good deal of time posting in r/conspiratard.

And finally, he votes r/conspiracy as his most hated subreddit and believes it is:

Like diving into a cesspool of ignorance.

source

I'm flattered that you feel the need to warn people against having a discussion about this topic with me.

I'm also flattered that you read through at least 12 days worth of my posts. It seems I have my own stalker.

I hope you learned something.

I'm flattered that you feel the need to warn people against having a discussion about this topic with me.

Discussion? Not quite. Anyone can follow the threads in this post and see that there is no discussion. Just you on your high horse, humoring us complete idiots for being so naive as to question one of the sketchiest events in recorded history.

You don't even answer the most fundamental concerns, you just skip topics and claim to be a wiring expert when you probably just did a couple jobs as a standard contractor. You claim to have an expert understanding of everything conceivable regarding what it would take for a government (with an unlimited budget) to bring down a building.

You are like the substitute science teacher at an elementary school who tries to too hard to impress people by loudly pointing out flaws in movies like Apollo 13.

But the funny thing is that nothing you are saying is original or insightful. You are parroting the 9/11 commission report and the NIST report which was funded by the US Chamber of Commerce. Congratulations, you read it. It is obviously a highlight in your life.

And I skimmed you post history in about 6 minutes. So don't get too excited or try to start your own fan club.

And no, I learned nothing. You said nothing new. You offer no actual insights. You just spout off memorized information which you take at face value despite the well researched criticisms of the reports you parrot.

Discussion? Not quite. Anyone can follow the threads in this post and see that there is no discussion. Just you on your high horse, humoring us complete idiots for being so naive as to question one of the sketchiest events in recorded history.

I asked very valid questions about the CD hypothesis. A CD of that size, wired up in a completely occupied building and set off flawlessly after 12 floors had burned out of control for 7 hours, and without any of the telltale sounds present in every other CD video would be just as unprecedented as a building coming down from fires alone. The CD explanation requires a LOT more moving parts and a vivid imagination however.

You don't even answer the most fundamental concerns, you just skip topics and claim to be a wiring expert when you probably just did a couple jobs as a standard contractor. You claim to have an expert understanding of everything conceivable regarding what it would take for a government (with an unlimited budget) to bring down a building.

Nowhere did I claim to be a wiring expert. You can cut out the fucking strawman arguments, thanks.

I've worked in enough office buildings to know that you can't strip back to the structural supports without a lot of people noticing.

But the funny thing is that nothing you are saying is original or insightful. You are parroting the 9/11 commission report and the NIST report which was funded by the US Chamber of Commerce. Congratulations, you read it. It is obviously a highlight in your life.

And the funny thing is I'm not even American and could give 2 shits about the US government.

And I skimmed you post history in about 6 minutes. So don't get too excited or try to start your own fan club.

No need, you already started it for me. Gotta say, I've never had another user feel the need to warn people about me like I'm the fucking boogeyman. Again, I'm truly flattered.

And no, I learned nothing. You said nothing new. You offer no actual insights. You just spout off memorized information which you take at face value despite the well researched criticisms of the reports you parrot.

Memorized information, also known as facts.

Thanks pal. Keep up the good work setting up a perimeter around me.

Certainly. sourcing posts like this should be the gold standard we aspire to.

NIST didn't offer a shred of evidence either. I made this perfectly clear right in the first sentence; Theory =/= evidence.

They used photos, videos, blueprints and the scientific properties of the structural components of wtc7 to come up with a valid theory endorsed by hundreds of scientists that helped put it together. They investigated the possibility of CD and found no evidence at all to support it.

You are asking what you assume to be "logical questions" by avoiding the fact that NIST fabricated false data in order to sustain the collapse theory while still supporting their theory at the same time. I don't understand how someone can say this and still demand others to be serious.

NIST didn't fabricate anything.

The type of demolition you are suggesting would have been completely unprecedented in the history of demolition. That type of insinuation requires evidence, something sorely lacking. I'm just pointing out that your pet theory has holes large enough to drive a 767 through.

Also the same photos, videos, blueprints and scientific data that the demolition theory uses, except that in that theory you don't have the fabricated 1.5s, biased invalid audio tests and incomplete unproved model simulations.

I've seen multiple views of wtc7 collapsing, and not a single one has the concussive explosions common in all other controlled demolitions. These videos all have line of sight with the building, which means sound could travel unobstructed to the cameraman, yet we hear nothing.

So not only is your world record sized demolition done completely clandestinely in a fully occupied building, not only does it work flawlessly after being burnt to a crisp by fire, but it goes off without sounding like any other CD in recorded history.

That's pretty amazing.

Just a warning, don't bother arguing with u/Trax123.

All this person does is defend the official 9/11 story. Scroll through their history, see for yourself.

He also spends a good deal of time posting in r/conspiratard.

And finally, he votes r/conspiracy as his most hated subreddit and believes it is:

Like diving into a cesspool of ignorance.

source

Laughing my ass off! How hilarious that you don't recognize that he admits to insufficient testing in his response:

... We did cook the chips to release the particles from epoxy bindings for further study, but not to measure ignition temperature of energy release...

In order to see if the chips are explosive or incendiary, you have to know the energy input and output of the system. Instead, he made an "oopsy" while trying to release the epoxy bindings at 400°C. Doesn't that count as a "mistake", as you claimed Harrit and co. made?

You're such a cutie-pie. I want to pinch your cheeks.

The Millette study requested samples of Harrit's "thermite" dust and was declined. Again, what were they hiding?

This is thrown around a lot by debunkers, yet I can't find any sources for it. So I'll just assume you and JREF pulled that one deep out of your asses.

You missed the part where his chemical testing confirmed the chips were not thermetic in any way.

This is thrown around a lot by debunkers, yet I can't find any sources for it. So I'll just assume you and JREF pulled that one deep out of your asses.

Chris Mohr from JREF is the one who requested the chips. You can ask him directly if you like.

And I didn't claim Harrit and co. made any mistakes, so you can stop with the strawman.

How would anyone know if they made mistakes since they haven't allowed anyone to examine their sample?

Again, WHAT ARE THEY HIDING? These guys supposedly have EARTH SHATTERING EVIDENCE of a government conspiracy to slaughter thousands of Americans...and they won't let anyone see it????

Imagine how that goes over in a court of law.

"Your honor, I have ironclad evidence that the accused is the murderer. I won't let a third party examine this evidence though, you'll just have to take my word for it."

That irks me to the core.

When people won't take 5 minutes to even look to see if conspiracies may have credibility.

I think a lot of the time they choose to avoid it, because they just want to keep being selfish and living how they want.