I'm seeking perspective from conspiracy experts:

4  2014-06-06 by Fractal_Soul

I have a friend in his mid 30's who has been vehemently apolitical his whole life-- honestly, he just Did Not Care. Sometime in the last few months, he's discovered the vast ocean of conspiracy theories thriving on the internet, and now believes a whole host of things that I find outrageous and irrational. I've come here, to ask folks who have spent more time on these topics than I have (or he has), whether these are "standard" beliefs in the conspiracy culture, or if he's an outlier. Feel free to tell me I'm wrong and he's right if that's how you feel, but I'm hoping you guys can offer some perspective into the evolution of conspiracy-mindedness, and whether he's likely just going through a beginner's phase before his beliefs mature, or advice on how to tackle debunking them with him. (I'm not asking for the debunking, more like an over-arching strategy on how to get through to him.) Also, I'm curious if these beliefs often coexist well, or if these things are usually just believed piecemeal.

So, out of nowhere, here's what he hits me with (some of which I had heard of, but most were new to me):

Obama's the Anti-Christ (Book of Revelations prophecy stuff... he's recently found religion) Obama's gay, and Michelle was born male (possibly now post-op) Their kids are adopted or something. Obama's a Muslim. Common Core is a nefarious plan to brainwash kids (or worse.) Obama will never relinquish the White House, and will seek global domination... maybe somehow through the UN. Sandyhook was staged, no kids were harmed. 9/11 inside job. There are guillotines in Georgia or something, planning for some sort of culling and organ-harvesting (maybe FEMA is involved?) Agenda 21 is a plan for mass murder. Fluoride in the water is a nefarious plot. Global Warming is a nefarious lie for reasons. He doesn't want to discuss any of this over the phone because the NSA is listening.

So... is this whole list common? Or do people usually just pick a few and discard the rest? Are some considered mainstream? Are some considered silly, even in conspiracy circles? Am I asking all the wrong questions?

Please don't ban me, I'm a nice guy, and I won't attack anyone. I'm seeking experienced perspective, and you guys have it. Thank you for your time.

Edit: spelling.

77 comments

Obama's the Anti-Christ (Book of Revelations prophecy stuff... he's recently found religion) Obama's gay, and Michelle was born male (possibly now post-op) Their kids are adopted or something. Obama's a muslim.

This is the stuff that you cannot prove and really doesn't matter in the bigger scheme of things. Falling for this stuff is a diversion. Your friend hasn't figured out how to separate the wheat from the chaff yet.

Common Core is a nefarious plan to brainwash kids (or worse.)

Common Core is definitely meant to change the nature of education. Whether you think it's "evil" or not is up to you. In Common Core, it is taught that 3x4 can equal 11 if the child is able to explain how they got there. Proof: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DW0VxxoCrNo

Draw your own conclusion about that.

Obama will never relinquish the White House, and will seek global domination... maybe somehow through the UN.

Never going to happen. I'm sure Obama would like it to but it won't.

Sandyhook was staged, no kids were harmed.

There is hard evidence that this may be the case. Wolfgang Halbig can tell you more: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8rp1zUIMmk

9/11 inside job.

If you can't see this by now, you have not read the 911 Commission Report and fact checked it yourself.

There are guillotines in Georgia or something, planning for some sort of culling and organ-harvesting (maybe FEMA is involved?) Agenda 21 is a plan for mass murder.

Agenda 21 is a plan to globalize property rights. Again, in all these instances that your friend says it's an "evil plot". Yes, it's a plot, but a vast majority of the people involved in Agenda 21 actually think they are doing it for the good of humanity. They don't think individual property rights are important, do you? If you don't, you won't perceive Agenda 21 as evil.

Fluoride in the water is a nefarious plot.

Fluoride is a scientifically proven neurotoxin. Harvard study: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-mercola/fluoride_b_2479833.html

It is well documented that it interferes with the operation of the pineal gland. Is it a plan or incompetence? Who knows.

Global Warming is a nefarious lie for reasons.

Global Warming is real but is being used as a tool. When John Kerry says that you're a terrorist if you deny global warming, he's not saying that because he's genuinely concerned about the planet. He is just setting up a tool. If an opponent had ever made a skeptical comment about Global Warming, Kerry will use that to discredit the opponent: "Don't trust that guy! He's a denier! He's a racist! He's an anti-science terrorist!"

He doesn't want to discuss any of this over the phone because the NSA is listening.

They are listening. But who gives a fuck. We're all on the list. Tell him to start shouting about this shit over the phone. If we all do it, what are they going to do? There's 100x more people than spooks. If they're gonna come, let them come.

Thank you for your input.

I didn't come to debate each of these issues, though I do appreciate hearing peoples' perspectives. In response to your comment on Common Core, I'll point out that back when I was in school, math teachers would often give partial credit for wrong answers if you showed your work and demonstrated that you knew the concept of how to solve it, but just happened to make a minor calculation error. That's not new, and not even controversial in my mind.

[deleted]

I respect that his state may have implemented dumb standardized tests. Common Core does not call for standardized testing. His state contracted with a private company that created these tests. This company may have marketed their goods as "Common Core aligned," but again, this does not mean Common Core standards have anything to do with it. This is like blaming the FDA for the flavor of Pepsi because Pepsi complies with FDA regulations.

In regards to the video... something about flashing lights or pulsing lights, and bad audio. No where in Common Core does it advocate for whatever this was. Common Core in fact advises against excessive standardized testing.

He said he took the SAGE test. Complaints should be directed to the makers of that test, or the state which chose to use it. Blaming Common Core is unfounded.

[deleted]

Sorry to be a cliche I guess? I didn't mean to bother you.

Don't mind him, he's a local grouch

[deleted]

He's asking questions, what is wrong with that?

Before you even say "he might be a troll"

Kill the troll with logic instead of what you did

[deleted]

Hey, I got taught a lesson in manners yesterday... I'm just trying to pass along the massage that we should remain logical in the face of possible trolls/shills/etc

It's not about what I like, it's about remaining civil

[deleted]

You can be human and still be logical with manners. Don't make excuses to be irrational please

Practical advice. :-D

Thank you, I live by the Spock code

It's one thing to be a mindless conspirator, its another to be a real researcher, which is very time consuming. The top three citizen journalists do a lot of that research.

Citizen journalist

http://www.corbettreport.com/

U.S. Foreign policy citizen journalist

http://porkinspolicyreview.wordpress.com/

Sibel Edmonds

http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/

These people below like to sensationalize stuff but mix it up with fact, though they don't really dig deep, which is something your going to need to do.

http://www.stufftheydontwantyoutoknow.com/podcasts/ they also have a youtube channel http://www.youtube.com/user/ConspiracyStuff

Some pointers:

Fluoride: already a classified neuro toxin by Lancet medical journal, and a recent Harvard paper. The Aluminum industry and the government during a toxic spill during A-Bomb development, worked to prevent litigation and falsified a lot of the "science" to cover their own themselves in court.

FEMA: type Racheal Maddow FEMA into youtube, you'll find here indefinite detention video, which explains what the camps are for, future political dissenters, or aptly named "terrorists". You'll also note the alarming purchases of MRAPS, around 9,000-11,000 of them for American municipalities and the increasing tyranical nature of the U.S. police state.

9/11: false flag attack, see JFK Bay of Pigs, this type of war like justification was thought of decades ago by the political establishment. First link, James Corbett documents 9/11 quite extensively in his earlier podcasts.

FEMA, a known prison camp for future political dissenters. There's another theory, but at this point it's rather pointless to share as there's no way to verify it, and it's quite a leap if anything to other things if you're not aware.

Climate Change: fake, propagated by the petroleum companies who positioned themselves to profit, you can google Al Gore and his ties to ENRON, which are shown in real senate committees. Rockefeller oil trillionaires of Standard Oil are primarily responsible for this, which is extremely costly to western economies, in my own province the cost of energy has gone up three fold thanks to these assholes. The quick facts you can research, climate change as its now called by is a variance of weather in regards to planetary solar radiation received by (a) the sun and (b) the planet is known to go throw slight events of heating and cooling, we know this because we can check for weather temperatures dating back thousands of years.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jzBWmpzifc

Illuminati, Zionists, Freemason, Skull and Bones: different branches, brainwashing cults who use ritualistic abuse and the Luciferian religion to brainwash/control new members under the New World Order banner, a group a rich oligarchs/celebrity masquerading as "elites". These groups do exist, they control and horde all the money, around 80% of it all in the anglo nations, they consist of all the fortune 500 corporate CEOs, they also us the U.S. to horde global resources. This is exampled with the proxy war presently happening in Africa as the U.S. wages war against China there. Pearse Redmond in Porkins Policy covers some of this in detail. It also explains the obliteration of Middle Eastern states with oil, prior Russia was trying out the waters with the NWO as being in the G8 but quickly fell out with the NWO establishment. Russia and China are presently ramping up their efforts to push back against U.S. global imperialism, forming their own gold back currency instead of the money out of thin air fiat trash money.

If you do not understand Currency of the U.S. federal reserves then these monetary classics are a must, also note they're a few hours long, however they cover a lot of relevant historical context.

Currency:

Secrets of Oz

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swkq2E8mswI

Money Masters

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfpO-WBz_mw

U.S. Federal Reserve, shortest doc I know on the topic, also note while the information is relevant, the company producing this is pushing gold commodities which I am in no way endorsing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFDe5kUUyT0

HAARP: I'm rather poorly researched in this but the basics go like this. It's a microwave weapon, one that can cause adverse weather anomalies such as earth quakes or super storms, ie hurricanes. China has accused the U.S. of causing the last major earthquake there which ninety thousand, there are also accusations that the U.S. fired HAARP on Japan causing the Tsunami which hit the coast and led to the Fukumshima Daiichi meltdown. Chemtrails also play a part in weather modification, allowing for the weaponized defense of the ionosphere from EMP and missile attacks, however chemtrails are known to contain toxic heavy metals, this part has been verified by those who formerly served in the military.

None of this is information you should take at face value, anyone can be a conspirator, or the horrendous title, "debunker", but to be truly informed you should always look to see who your sources are. A lot of people here hate the mainstream media, rarely do they ever give the public relevant information, their number one job is to retard and make you uninformed, this is especially true of anyone under their paradigm such as the daily show or corbert show which masquerade and propagate the "two" party political theater.

There is only one political establishment in North American countries, we live under the illusion of choice, under the illusion of economic freedom, if you truly do look into these things you will fast understand that we're slaves to an international banking cartel which seeks to keep us in perpetual poverty and control. Its not pretty but that's the present planet we live on, again do not take my word for it, go out and research it, while the free internet is still here.

Edit 1: I'll try to get you my research link on Vaccinations, their quite useless, toxic, and used as well to retard children and the general populous as well as used to spread viruses in the general population.

Some interesting things you can research in regards in the meantime, majority of nurses do not want to be vaccinated, this is because they're seen the first hand effects of mass vaccinations themselves.

Polio vaccination developer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13QiSV_lrDQ

Bayer, tainted HIV drugs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg-52mHIjhs

Thank you for your input. I'm not ignorant of these claims. I've already researched most of these to the point that I can confidently say I disagree with the conclusions you've reached, but I appreciate the response, all the same.

Your welcome, though some parting perspective about your friend, like most here, the government is in a severely negative deficit for trust. Which is not surprising, but the same is applicable to universities and other publicly funded institutions which accept corporate bribes and falsify research to full fill a niche specific role propping the position of the corporate, the government and the academia as the final say on all matters.

Your friend is rightly skeptical of all the government, corporate, academic garbage and in time if you research I'm confident you'll find your way there too.

Anyway, ramblings on, cheers!

I encourage skepticism in all things. From my perspective, many believers in these conspiracies could use a bit more skepticism directed towards the sources they use to back their beliefs. I feel that some people seem to only apply skepticism to authority they distrust, and too rarely to the claims of some guy on the internet. Every institution has an agenda that may or may not coincide with our interests, but I think these theories tend to misinterpret those agendas, making rational evaluation difficult.

cheers!

Something I guess we strongly disagree on, while the people on the internet are rather chatty, and most lacking relevant information or research to their claims, a concerted effort, time consuming effort can bring real illumination to a topic, one that must be done by yourself.

To contrast, how are we to know when a government/corporate/academia falsifies their data and whores itself to profiteering self interests? It's even worse with these entities then the guy on the internet, because it happens all the time, the government is littered with trash from the corporate oligarchy. How am I to know scientists aren't falsifying their data all the time? I'm certainly not paying them directly, the political establishment steals our money and distributes it to the people it deems friendly to it's own interests. Somehow people/public likes to trust "scientists", "doctors" when these are in fact people who're working in a job, most are there for money. Most are there to self profiteer and often the interests of the public are not at the forefront of their minds, the ones who do blow the whistle are often sheered alive for it as well their careers come to a terminal end.

Shiv Chopra is the obvious example, which is exemplified by his struggle to slow Monsanto with Bovine Growth Hormone in Canada against the self profiteering interests of the Canadian government.

Well, regarding scientists and peer review, I have faith in nerds. As a nerd, I know first hand that one of the things we enjoy most in life is the joy of being right, and proving someone else wrong. I don't mean just winning an argument, or giving the impression of being right, or fooling people into thinking we're right. I mean being unequivocally right, in a way that others can check and confirm our rightness. This motivation may be petty and selfish, but it yields productive results over time. If any given scientist publishes something incorrect, I have faith that scientists around the world salivate at the prospect of proving them wrong, and receiving the recognition for being right. Scientific conspiracies just can't thrive in an environment where so many other scientists would absolutely love to be the one to disprove them. You just can't maintain a secret conspiracy about climate science, or vaccinations, or HIV, or fluoride, etc. when there are thousands of true experts who would love to rip the curtain away and get recognition for doing so.

Now, scientists paid by corporations are more likely to put out bunk research, but again, that's why there is peer review, and other scientists will eventually step up to disprove it.

Our modern civilization wouldn't exist if not for this accumulation of knowledge through the scientific process. The fact that I'm posting this to the internet is proof that the process works, and is always progressing.

Your premise belies basic logic of scientific progression, funding. Rare is the scientist that is able to fund their own research, we do not pay scientists to work, nor are the majority of scientists crowd sourced for their work by the people.

The work of people aptly titled "scientist" is misnomer for researchers in specific fields of research under the duress of the business oligarchs, government establishment, not the people. This is the biggest misconception people carry, the idea of self interest and "righteousness" are not even primary in the process with which research is manifested and expressed, ie product. Did the scientists blow the whistles when they knew Bayer sold HIV tainted products into the market? No. There goes the kitchen sink, and if you look at who controls the information/product of research they have litigation sheets equivocal to modern day psychopaths, not only that the I'm even having a hard time finding people who actually went to jail for those heinous crimes, which is similar to the 2008 financial crash, in which the only major figure to be jailed was the one who robbed the oligarchs, ironic, no?

Remember, no one went to jail for this, it should be telling you the obvious.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg-52mHIjhs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13QiSV_lrDQ

Academia is compromised profession, your career enters terminal decline if you speak out against establishment interests, the one and the same who grants your funding. If you also look into climate change there are quite a lot of "scientists" who whole heartily disagree with it as being nonsense, but then again, if you have the trillionaires of petroleum at your side, it would seem anything is possible, as Al-Gore learned with ENRON, stuff you can easily research. As for vaccinations, that ones an even harder nut to crack, in that regard everyone has been brainwashed effectively to believe it, especially doctors who're equally as unknowledgeable about vaccinations as the public, though with exception a lot of them are financially motivated to vaccinate children..

Found my research link for vaccinations, also note its fragmented as it was in response to questions from another redditor, its rather long and lays the context around vaccination development, this context does not include Agenda 21, just the blatant corporate corruption of the business and product development.

http://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/26c6ca/the_not_so_conspiracy_of_uneccesary_and_deadly/

I suppose there are degrees of corruption, vaccinations are utterly garbage, calcified in perception as a form of preventative medicine. "Climate Change" is not, there was never consensus to begin with, the Chinese and Indonesians are the primary polluters on this planet yet the peoples of the anglo nations must spend excesses in the billions to stop climate change? It's such utter madness.

Regarding your FEMA link with a Rachel Maddow clip: That had nothing to do with FEMA. That was in regards to currently existing Guantanamo Bay prisoners. In many cases, because evidence was acquired through torture (physical coercion, if you prefer) that evidence would be automatically rejected by US courts (because Bush fucked it up.) So, Obama's in a tricky situation. Because some guys, who plausibly deserve imprisonment, were tortured under the Bush administration, those legal cases are ruined, and would be rejected. Since he can't just arbitrarily release them, and doesn't want to keep them locked up forever without a legal trial, he needs to have some kind of legal process to address it, but there isn't one. He was urging Congress to give him some kind of legal process. He wasn't even going off about creating a process on his own, he was trying to get the Legislative Branch to write the laws that would give him this legal process. What would you have him do?

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/23/us/politics/23detain.html?_r=0

But Mr. Obama’s critics say his proposal is Bush redux. Closing the prison at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, and holding detainees domestically under a new system of preventive detention would simply “move Guantánamo to a new location and give it a new name,” said Michael Ratner, president of the Center for Constitutional Rights. Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates suggested this month that as many as 100 detainees might be held in the United States under such a system.

Small exert, but it seems the Racheal Maddow video is rather accurate to the context with which it presents Obama. By transferring Guantanamo from the land of legal baloney onto real American soil it would by extension grant the executive the right to detain anyone under indefinite detention as a "terrorist" threat.

As well if I recall a while back, most of the people in Gitmo aren't even real terrorists, the government even tried exporting them to other countries, an attempt that failed considering the massive legal ramifications of doing so in those nations(plus its wildly unpopular), because torture and permanent imprisonment without trial is simply unconstitutional, Obama should've freed them all regardless, he probably would've assassinated them with a predator drones(which he does all the time there) back in the Middle East if they were of any real threat to U.S. interests.

Then there's the big joke, Al-Qeada is just fictitious, people believe it here because the media propagates terrorism and this group ass being real. Anyone with even an inclination can see the scathing holes in their reality distortion, by looking at the mainstream media's own reports on the spread of Al-Aqeada in the Middle East and Africa. Al-Qeada is everywhere where U.S. forces are, they're even more obvious in Libya where the U.S. government armed, funded, trained and helped them destroy the sovereign state of Libya. The "government" there only controls Tripoli where as the tribes, the true representatives of the people there are arming to force them back out. The present "Libyan" government is also full of Al-Qeada members which is something you can easily research.

These two American's where there in Tripoli during the initial NATO invasion and destruction of the country.

http://www.corbettreport.com/interview-898-libya-update-with-james-and-joanne-moriarty-and-furaj-muftah/

http://libyanwarthetruth.com/

If you want to know what's really happening out in the world, Pearse Redmond does a pretty good analysis of real American foreign policy.

http://porkinspolicyreview.wordpress.com/

he's recently found religion

wrong sub, try /r/christianity or /r/evangelism

I suppose so, regarding antichrist stuff... but I'm not sure they'll be readily making connections with Obama, so I figured you guys would've encountered it more than them.

I think there are conspiracies surrounding these beliefs, and people are often used because of them. cults depend on it.

There are a lot of kooky theories out there, and a lot of real stories.

Common Core is a nefarious plan to brainwash kids

That's pretty obviously true. Many aren't that obvious.

he's likely just going through a beginner's phase before his beliefs mature

I think he's just overwhelmed by it all. It will likely take a while before he calms down, i.e. months or more.

For the paranoia, it's really just about what level of risk you want to expose yourself to. Some things are very real. e.g. In computer security the best thing to do is cut off your computer from all networks and put it in a room insulated against radio waves, etc. etc. etc. But is that really something that you want to do? It's unlikely that you have anything that important on your computer that anyone would care about. So... a bit of sanity is required.

You could try posting the same thing in r/conspiratard, but I doubt that you'll get much help there other than a bunch of rants about your friend being foolish.

I second you posting in /r/conspiratard, for science!

He sounds like an extreme right wing conservative. My uncle says crap like this. He even believes China attacked Pearl Harbor with planes painted to look Japanese.

It's just weird because he would never touch politics with a 10ft pole before this, and now he suddenly has Very Strong Opinions.

What has he been exposed to recently?

I don't know his sources, or what prompted his investigations. I could glibly say "the internet" but I'm sure he's had access his whole adult life, so that's not new.

What you describe is more the opinions of a right-wing fundamentalist perspective, not all that uncommon in the south, midwest and in rural communities.

It's important to remember that those who may believe in some or even one conspiracy are not going to subscribe to all others by default, and that we generally come from varied backgrounds both politically and ideologically.

His family is right wing, and subscribe to some flavor of Christianity, but I don't know how fundamentalist they are. I guess what I came here looking for (but haven't really gotten an answer to) is what does the beginner's learning curve look like? Since he's clearly new at this (as in, just a few months now) I was wondering if there's a common pattern in how quickly people accept conspiracies as true when they're new, vs experienced. I know there are infinite variations in beliefs, I was just wondering if there were common trends.

Obama's the Anti-Christ

Impossible. First, there is a lot that needs to happen before The Antichrist (spoken of in John) comes about. Obama cannot be the antichrist from the apocalypse. That there will be one, though, is a very widespread belief. All christians who accept the validity of the bible must accept that. Every president is speculated on.

Obama's gay

Rumors that he's engaged in homosexual encounters in a chicago bath-house he used to frequent. I've only seen this referenced in a couple of places on the net, though I'd guess more extreme talk radio hostsmay offer it up sometimes. I doubt this is believed by more than a handful of people, relatively speaking.'

Michelle was born male

New to me until the other day when someone posted it. The article and it's 'proof' was extremely thin. See 'Obama is gay'. That said, she definitely has a manly physique, but she's certainly a woman since there is zero real evidence to say she's not.

Common Core is a nefarious plan to brainwash kids

A very common belief. People said this about "new math" way back when they started teaching us our long division. The unknown brings fear. I'd guess it's usually coupled with the theory that the education system was designed to dumb down the population generally at it's inception.

Obama will never relinquish the White House, and will seek global domination

See Obama is the antichrist. He'll leave office as sure as every other president did. However, that USA seeks world domination seems to me an obvious fact.

UN

A right-wing, patriotic type of theory, that various democratic politicians seek to suborn national sovereignty to an international committee, usually couple with NWO rhetoric. This hearkens back at least to the League of Nations. Again, there is some truth to this, obviously, but to the extent it's taken as a theory it's not borne out. Pretty common belief, though.

Sandyhook was staged, no kids were harmed

I don't think this a common belief at all, though sometimes it appears so on this sub. However, it is surely true that these events are exploited politically to support gun control.

9/11 inside job

Fairly common belief, I think, or at least that the govt version of events isn't the full story. Still, most people won't have heard any evidence excepting the govt story, so 'fairly common' here, like everywhere else in this post, should be taken to mean relatively.

FEMA

I think this is a definite fringe theory. Personally I've not heard of guillotines and organ harvesting in this context before reading it in your post.

Agenda 21

Gaining ground, but still fringe, imo. Seems to be coupled with vaccines, FEMA, NWO, UN type stuff. Even if we accept this to be true, it is still certainly a fringe event yet, which should be obvious when we consider how immigration proceeds apace. Why allow constant and possibly increasing immigration if the goal is to kill everyone off?

Fluoride

Common. This one is sort of "where there's smoke, there's fire". There's no reason to think it isn't a nefarious plan, when supposedly any dentist will tell you that only topical application shows any benefit.

Global Warming

Common, and belief lands along partisan lines (like republican/democrat in the us).

NSA is listening

Well, this is the only one that's really gone mainstream, isn't it.

Those are my thoughts, anyhow.

[deleted]

Choice links. I was wondering why he only responded to one, unhelpful, comment.

Edit: Holy shit, that comment history:

No, the plane was an actor, the buildings were models, the people were CGI, and the Rothschilds were planes

Yeah, sometimes I razz on people, sometimes I'm quite serious. That guy I was responding to actually didn't have a coherent sentence, it was just laced with "X is really Y" and "Z is really Q." I had to tease.

It'd be great if you responded to one of my on-topic comments.

I'm trying to keep up. There are 43 comments atm.

Pretty much missed your chance typing that, didn't you?

What have I missed? :P

I thought about adding, under "NSA is listening" that he ought to tell his friend that it doesn't matter who is listening. If we cease to talk about things, we're cutting off our noses to spite our faces.

I actually had a similar thought. Because I think he's been misinformed, I found it unfortunate that part of his new-found belief might limit him in discovering new information or perspectives.

edit for clarity

Yep, I'm a lefty. I recently began researching Common Core specifically for the reason stated in my post. Yes, I've formulated my own conclusions. Yes, they're probably different from yours. I don't care, I didn't come here to fight about it or any other conspiracy. I'm asking meta stuff about conspiracy culture, because I'm an outsider with little experience it, and you guys have seen more of it than I have.

[deleted]

No, actually. He's wicked smart, though I'm not dumb. But he was never into politics or history until very recently, whereas I've been avidly interested for the past 20+ years, and I know things about these topics that he simply doesn't. Ignorance is not stupidity. It's good that we can finally discuss it, but I didn't expect that his starting point would be so radically different from my own... or so different from anyone I've known IRL. I like to debate, and good debates happen when opinions are different.

You're not suggesting I refrain from discussing politics with him, are you? ;)

and I know things about these topics

Yet you don't know that 9/11 was an inside job or that fluoride is a neurotoxin?

I've heard the claims. I happen to reach a different conclusion than you.

What do think is the best aspect of common core?

I've only been researching it for like a week or two, so I accept that I'm still ignorant of the finer details, and I could possibly be missing something critical, but based on what I've seen, I've reached the conclusion that it's benign. It's probably even a good idea, though nothing to write home about. From what I've seen there is a slew of misinformation that is clouding the water, and leading people to the wrong conclusions. I realize that's an unpopular opinion here.

What's best about it? Well, it's a valiant attempt at setting optional guidelines that if even the nation's poorest schools could keep their students on track with, those students should have comparable skills in Math and Language Arts as those from richer schools. I'm sure there are horrible things you confidently believe are part of the program that I confidently don't think are part of the program. We probably both think the other is operating on less-than-accurate information. That's fine with me; I didn't come here to change anyone's mind on anything. Maybe I'll try so in other threads some day, though :)

If poor public schools use the guidelines, they will have the same results as richer public schools? I understand there are large funding differences between public schools in different districts, but wouldn't leveling out that funding playing-field be a more obvious and effective solution?

Shouldn't we lower the budget of ALL schools to that of the lowest funded school, since results are comparable?

Increasing public school funding is something I would love to see. We leftists tend to stand firmly on that.

Do try to stay in character.

I don't get it.

So character assassination? What have I done to warrant this?

You're right, that I'm not here right now to debate the topics themselves, I'm asking about conspiracy culture, and how often these disparate theories coincide in one mind, and whether anyone here remembers going through a learning curve, or some kind of stages, where first they believed every conspiracy they encountered, then gradually whittled that down to ones they felt more confident in, dismissing older beliefs, etc.

she's certainly a woman since there is zero real evidence to say she's not.

I agree with your conclusions, but I don't like your attitude.

What's my attitude?

It's just jokes. "The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence."

Thank you for your response. I do find it interesting that some are more popular(?) than others, though I never would've guessed which ones. Any thoughts on the evolution of acceptance? -- by which I mean, do you think he's just gobbling up every new conspiracy he encounters at the moment, because all of this is new to him, and will eventually discard some on his own once he applies some skeptical thinking? Or is it relatively normal to accept them in bulk, and just keep that mindset (in for a penny, in for a pound)? I guess I'm asking about when you guys first got into conspiracies... does everyone go through this phase, where they readily accept theories that they later dismiss?

Should I work with him to talk him down from the "rarer" ones first, or try to tackle the "Big" ones first, etc (if this question isn't considered inappropriate here.)

You're the one that knows the guy. Why do you find it to be a problem that he has these beliefs?

Well, he has some mental health issues, not too serious, but it was kinda starting to wreck his life a couple years ago. Medication, a divorce, sobriety, career change, and religion have made him happy again, and he reminds me of how he used to be, years and years ago. But when he was having mental health issues, paranoia was crippling his ability to see straight and fix anything, and I thought the friendship was dead. He's been doing so much better, and now suddenly he's seeing nefarious plots in things that he never cared about before, and I'm worried this may be a bad sign of things to come-- not to mention how this worldview itself may affect him, if he feels higher powers are out to harm him.

That said, "each to their own." I'm fine with agreeing to disagree. But there are reasons why I'm worried about him.

Give him hope.

Obama's the Anti-Christ

Foundless misinfo, he is a mere puppit and I find the mere thought of an Anti-Christ somewhat laughable

Obama's gay

If he is, so?

Michelle was born male

If she was, so?

Obama's a Muslim

If he is, so?

Common Core is a nefarious plan to brainwash kids

Now this I can dig, although I like one aspect of common core math (cause it actually makes it easier and more logical: 23+X=100 | 30-23 = 7 | 100-30 = 70 | X=77 ) but the other ways make math too fucked up, you should be able to do math in your head, not have to use 3 sheets of paper to solve 1 prob

Obama will never relinquish the White House

This could be a potability, in great times of war Roosevelt held the house for 3 terms and with the recent readying of our nukes for a first strike on Russia accompanying the fleet of B-52s that got sent to Europe would make this possible

and will seek global domination

This isn't Obama's plan, this has been a plan for a long long long time, You can go on youtube and search "New World Order speech" and a slew of videos from our politicians, and politicians all around the world calling and pushing for this. This plan is called (on paper) Agenda 21.. Here is a great documentary on Agenda 21

Sandyhook was staged

This is a toughie since it's such a sensitive subject. There is a man named Wolfgang Halbig Here is information on who he is

This man asked one simple question to the Newtown police department about why they parked a half mile away from the school and continued to it on foot. Because he asked this question he was threatened with arrest for harassment. Since then he has came up with 16 questions that everyone in Newtown refuses to answer which kind of sets off red flags in a rational mind.

That's all I'm going to touch on this for right now, just gonna let you soak that in for now.

9/11 inside job

9-11 was a sideways job. Al Qaeda came up with the plan, but the gov used it to their full advantage. Furthermore, nowhere in the world has a building like building 7 collapsed like that, you want to rebut that it was on fire for several hours (one room was on fire, a controlled paper burning fire) and fallen without help of demolitions

guillotines in Georgia or something

What? If he thinks that they are going to bring back the guillotine when someone can just shoot you in the face and dump you in a plastic bin then he needs to get off that train. Cause that's nothing but misinfo.

Fluoride in the water is a nefarious plot.

Fluoride just got classified as a neurotoxin And a Harvord study confirmed it lowers IQs

Global Warming is a nefarious lie for reasons.

I'm probably the only one here who is diggin the whole global warming thing

He doesn't want to discuss any of this over the phone because the NSA is listening.

He's right, the NSA is recording every single call, text message, picture, email etc. Napolitano stated this, I dug for the clip of him stating this and I promise you I will deliver tomorrow morning unless someone else doesn't beat me to it.

I want to make clear that they are only recording you and not actively listening/reading UNLESS you use key words that trigger the machines to re-rout you to active ears/eyes and the key words are

So... is this whole list common? Or do people usually just pick a few and discard the rest?

Some pick and choose while some cover broadly. I like to focus on the things I can back up with facts, which as you can see from my post is becoming very broad due to the amount of legitimate information we have gathered now.

Edit: Changed the Agenda-21 link

Thank you. I will be following this thread, even after it's dead, because it may take me some time to exhaust all the links I'm being given. Yes, I found quite a few of them laughable, and some so gobsmackingly weird that I couldn't laugh. I appreciate your input.

What links have you found comical and which ones made you sit and rub your chin? (If you don't mind me probing)

Sorry, I see I worded that poorly. That sentence was a response to

Foundless misinfo, he is a mere puppit and I find the mere thought of an Anti-Christ somewhat laughable

Honestly, I haven't gotten to the links yet, because I'm still keeping up with responses.... but I plan to get them, seriously.

Jesus, it's like attack of the people who don't have an inner compass for their minds.

Wow your friend hit it hard. I'm not a doctor so I can't tell you how to help him. If I don't address something it's because it's unfounded.

If you have children, I strongly recommend checking into common core. At the very least, no conspiracy, you will agree it was poorly conceived and designed (Just click sign in to use a guest account and start a practice test).

In my opinion, the material has a strong leftist stance and the teaching methods by their (probably unintentional) design alienate parents from the education process with their children.

Dictator Obama is sort of a meme I guess? He may take it seriously, but shouldn't. It's actually at odds with most other conspiracy theories about American politics.

Sandy hook is strange, but IMHO, unimportant. It's like creepypasta for adults!

As for 9/11... Dude I don't want to tell you how to live your life, but just search for some videos of the towers falling. Don't watch documentaries or videos with commentary-- just watch some news footage. Watch it a few times. Think about it a bit, maybe google other buildings collapsing, or controlled demolition videos (these are fun to watch anyways).

Speculating on who did it and why can be fruitless, but the physics that day were a bit wonky.

Fluoride could be good for you, could be bad for you. It depends on the dose. Ultimately, medicating people against their will is ethically wrong, even if it is for their benefit.

"Global warming" is an exposed lie. "Climate change" is a complicated issue, I'd only get into it if you were truly interested.


Use an approach of Socratic questioning to make your friend defeat his own bad arguments (or defend the good ones). I would help more with this, but it's such a case-by-case strategy that I probably wouldn't help more with this. Google it and learn it, it's a great way for convincing people (to convince themselves). I would likely use it on you if we were to discuss any of the topics I highlighted.

Your friend is probably in a tough place, it's good of you to stay by him. If he makes it clear he may harm himself physically, get him help. His stress is under (some) false pretense.

Edit: You raped my heart! How could you lie to me? Still, nice thread.

Good advice on the Socratic questioning. I haven't properly employed that in years. I may have to dust off some old books.

I may come back to debate, but that's not what I'm here for, in this thread.

regarding your edit... um... I swear, officer, I didn't go anywhere near their heart. But seriously... I don't think I lied. What do you mean?

I was just upset you never told me your favorite aspect of common core. What do you think is best about it? I pick math, I think the methods are solid and local teachers are implementing them poorly. Test input is the real culprit and should be modified.. What are your opinions?

Edit: Just noticed my creepy-swift response. I'm just tabbing between those practice tests and reddit and I caught you like a ninja.

I replied to the original question.

In addition to that answer, I'll expound: yes, as someone who had an intuitive grasp of math, compared to my classmates who struggled with memorizing appropriate formulas, I endorse teaching kids to think about numbers in other ways, such as visually picturing numberlines or rows of objects, or the changing slopes of curves, etc. Because I had these alternate ways of thinking about numbers, and how they can be manipulated, I was able to do math in my head much faster than most kids... but they didn't really teach the other kids how to do it the way I could. Rote memorization and plugging numbers into formulas... that's just teaching kids to be calculators, not problem solvers. IMHO.

That said, Common Core does not have any specific curriculum. States/Districts/Schools/Teachers can teach math however they want. Common Core just lists skills that they should have at various stages.

I'm glad we can find common ground on the positives of the math portion. I think it is great ideas poorly implemented. My main problem I think you could agree on is the testing format. I linked you elsewhere with a practice test that you should check out. A lot of the content could be better designed, but even as-is a great learning tool. The fact that it's used as a test seems inappropriate to me.

You're right in your other comments. He's an idiot.

You're contribution really raises the bar of discourse. You must be proud.

[deleted]

Have a nice day. :)

Common Core doesn't inherently have tests, though. I understand that your state may have implemented crappy tests, but that's not Common Core's fault.

Actually, that's kind of the entire point, standardized testing so learning can be compared between states.

Common Core does not tell states to do standardized testing, and certainly does not tell them how make standardized tests, or which ones to choose. Common Core gives optional guidelines for a rate of progress. If states or schools want to assess whether their students are keeping up with those guidelines, that's up to them, and it's up to them to decide how they want to do it. Just because some private companies produce standardized tests, then market them to states as "Common Core Aligned," does not mean states have to purchase them, or use them. Blame your state, or blame the makers of those tests, but Common Core only said "students at this age should be able to do this." It doesn't make anyone test the kids, and it certainly doesn't tell them how to test the kids.

The means of assessing students and the use of the data that result from those assessments are up to the discretion of each state and are separate and unique from the Common Core.

http://www.corestandards.org/about-the-standards/myths-vs-facts/ (bottom of the page)

I can't find what you are trying to indicate, but this textbook publishers website and the website of the company who designed the tests both suggest there will be both optional AND mandatory national tests.

Why would we ban you? We're not a cult.

I don't know the culture here. I do feel like a sheep in a lion's den, though... or someone inadvertently dressed as a lion in a sheep's pen, I don't know... I know I'm not a threat, I just didn't know how I'd be received.

Yeah we're just normal people I'm sorry.

Well, he has some mental health issues, not too serious, but it was kinda starting to wreck his life a couple years ago. Medication, a divorce, sobriety, career change, and religion have made him happy again, and he reminds me of how he used to be, years and years ago. But when he was having mental health issues, paranoia was crippling his ability to see straight and fix anything, and I thought the friendship was dead. He's been doing so much better, and now suddenly he's seeing nefarious plots in things that he never cared about before, and I'm worried this may be a bad sign of things to come-- not to mention how this worldview itself may affect him, if he feels higher powers are out to harm him.

That said, "each to their own." I'm fine with agreeing to disagree. But there are reasons why I'm worried about him.

What links have you found comical and which ones made you sit and rub your chin? (If you don't mind me probing)

I've heard the claims. I happen to reach a different conclusion than you.

You're contribution really raises the bar of discourse. You must be proud.