I may have solved a huge issue that plagues this subreddit. I have a suggestion that very possibly could bring this place back from the dead and help to foster better discussions and threads. And it is VERY easy to implement.
21 2014-07-16 by [deleted]
OK. So you know how AskReddit threads have a (Serious) tag that users can add when they don't want the thread devolving into jokes?
Every conspiracy theory requires a certain level of "for arguments sake" in order to bring the discussion to the next level. If I believe that Kennedy was assassinated by the US government and want to have a discussion about why, it is extremely hard to do when multiple users jump into the thread with the sole purpose of trying to disprove that theory.
Because I am not trying to discuss the foundation of my theory. I know I cannot prove it, or maybe proving it (through comments) will take all of my effort and tire me out from going beyond to what I actually want: which is to have a discussion about it with other users who are also willing to "for arguments sake" assume that the foundation of the theory is sound enough to build from.
We should have a tag on this subreddit for posts, like 4AS ("for arguments sake") and when you use this tag, it means that you want to have a discussion with users willing to take a leap of faith and accept it enough to springboard further discussions.
Or maybe the tag could be LEAP (leap of faith). I know my tags aren't that catchy but I am sure the minds on this sub can brainstorm better ones.
Let me give you an example of how this would work:
Post without 4AS tag: "I think WTC7 was the smoking gun for 9/11 conspiracies, what else do you think they gained from destroying that building?"
Typical reply: "WTC7 collapsed because fire from the other buildings hit it, people need to seriously stop calling it "the smoking gun". Despite your tinfoil hat, the NIST report proves why all 3 buildings collapsed."
As opposed to
Post utilizing my idea: "I think WTC7 was the smoking gun for 9/11 conspiracies, what else do you think they gained from destroying that building? (4AS)"
Typical reply: "WTC7 collapsed because fire from the other buildings hit it, people need to seriously stop calling it "the smoking gun". Despite your tinfoil hat, the NIST report proves why all 3 buildings collapsed."
Deleted by mods and/or downvoted for community for not respecting tag
Better reply: Yeah, when one looks into the records of the tenants in WTC7, a very interesting picture emerges: the IRS, the CIA, various Wall Street firms...
And don't get me wrong, this reply can still be challenged, and the overall discussion can still contain arguments and disagreements. But if someone is not willing to take a small leap of faith (as is necessary when discussing almost every conspiracy theory) then that person is not allowed to sidetrack the entire thread.
This will work from the largest conspiracies all the way down to most obscure. If someone wants to have a discussion about "flat earth theory" and uses the 4AS tag, then only people willing to entertain the idea will thrive in the comment section.
Because you don't have to fully believe in something in order to entertain something or have a discussion about it. I don't believe that we didn't go to moon, but I do like entertaining the thought and having discussions about it where people can show me their evidence or share their theories.
You are 100% allowed to have the idea that "We of course went to the moon and anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot", but that does not mean you should spend your time trying to disrupt and counter the conversations of other people who DO want to entertain the conspiracy and talk about it. Just move on to another thread and leave those people alone.
I hope I have made some kind of sense here.
Of course, every thread would not warrant a (4AS) tag. Maybe we could limit it to text posts for example. So links would still be open game for anyone with an opinion. Because this is not about turning this sub into a circlejerk where everyone agrees with each other.
But it is about providing a safe-haven for ANYONE with a conspiracy theory in their head, to have the opportunity to find like-minded people who are up for discussion. And if your ideas are too wacky, you will have a hard time finding people who are willing to entertain them, even "for arguments sake". So the system works.
The only real thing we would need, would be a sentence in the sidebar about the new tag. And a moderation team willing to put in a little more work deleting comments that disrupt those threads with the tag.
Thanks for listening. And if you have nothing to do but bash on my idea, please keep in mind that I am trying to brainstorm ideas to make this community better. And if you are here to stop that process, then ask yourself what you are doing with your life.
40 comments
7 my_newz_account 2014-07-16
A tagging system would not be a bad idea.
4 [deleted] 2014-07-16
It has certainly worked for some of the other subreddits. I think it would be fairly easy to bring about because as soon as a few posts started using the tag, people would ask what it meant and it would spread like wildfire.
We wouldn't want it to be abused, so we could limit it to text posts.
1 88x3 2014-07-16
/r/unresolvedmysteries has a good tagging system. The tagging system would make things more organized and easier for people to choose what to click on. The deleting part, is not a good idea.
3 [deleted] 2014-07-16
Without deleting than we have nothing. We need to stop pussyfooting around while our sub gets destroyed further from the inside.
People have no balls these days.
6 Maxwyfe 2014-07-16
Great idea! Simple to use, easy to implement and benefits everyone. I vote "Aye!"
5 materhern 2014-07-16
We should try it. Then when someone jumps in with the discussion killer, that can be used against them. It pretty much makes them the turd for trying to stifle it.
5 [deleted] 2014-07-16
How can we get the mods to see this?
5 IntrinsicThought 2014-07-16
Great suggestion! I'm all for this. With the vote tallies obscured Reddit needs to be a place for discussion
3 no1113 2014-07-16
Doesn't seem like a horrible idea, but it would seem that the same individuals undermining the serious discussions in this subreddit without the 4AS tag now would do so even if that tag were in place then.
The mods in this sub should give the ax to a lot of trolls that persist here, and I'm not sure that those trolls would be very dissuaded by a "4AS" tag. Being trolls, I imagine they'd simply continue on trolling. That's what trolls do. That's why they're trolls.
I think the idea would be cool IF it would be abided by and supported by the mods and the community - which I don't know if it would be.
1 [deleted] 2014-07-16
If the mods took the tag seriously, then the trolls who came into those tagged discussions would be deleted. As of right now, there are no rules in this subreddit against wrecking discussions because the trolls know how to do it in a subtle way.
With my tag in place, there would be an actual RULE in place, to allow those discussions to flourish and the trolls would be shut out of the thread by mods.
Maybe they could implement a 3-strike rule too. Disrupt a tagged posts 3 times and you are banned from the sub.
Of course they could just make a new username and do the same thing all over again but the point is that we can never stop them, just make it harder for them. As of right now, it is pretty easy for them to do what they want.
And if they get booted from a thread without a specific rule in place, they will whine and start crying about censorship.
That is why we need a very simple and clear rule in place: hence my tagging idea.
1 no1113 2014-07-16
I agree, but that's the thing. It seems the mods at times don't even take modding seriously - let alone the addition of a 4AS tag.
Quite the contrary. I think there are definite rules in place in this sub against trolling...and yet it continues to happen anyway.
Again, however, none of this is to dissuade you from the idea that you have. I think it's a viable one. I just don't see how the morons that naysay things without the 4AS tag would be dissuaded from doing so even with the 4AS tag in place.
That'd be cool if it's implemented (stress on the "if", unfortunately).
I think that's cool, and I think something like that should even be applied to this sub in general. Matter of fact, I think something like that may very well be in place. It's just not exercised much, I don't think.
They whine and cry regardless. Fuck'em.
Well, maybe some mods are listening in...We'll see what happens.
3 ridestraight 2014-07-16
Excellent suggestion!
3 Sabremesh 2014-07-16
I think this is an outstanding idea.
One of the principal problems we have is that conspiracy discussions always have to start at the beginning, however many times it has been discussed before, and the conversation struggles to move beyond the basics because certain commenters deliberately drag the discussion down.
1 [deleted] 2014-07-16
Yes, you hit the nail on the head!!!
That is exactly what the problem is. It is like trying to teach a college physics class but young children keep entering whenever they want and they demand the teacher start explaining addition and subtraction.
The students of the class will never actually be able to move forward with their studies, because the discussion is constantly being reverted backwards to the very beginning.
In my experience, people who have a mind for conspiracies also have an inquisitive mind and love reading and watching documentaries and filling their head with info about the topic. When you are well informed and go to a place full of other informed people, it is beyond frustrating to continually be paused by people who (possibly on purpose) demand that you walk them step by step, just to reach the very beginning of the topic. And then they refuse to believe you. Its like "listen, I am not trying to convince you, I have done my homework on the subject and I like entertaining the idea of this conspiracy, even as an exercise in thinking!"
And half the time you want to question the motives of the people who do that. Because they appear everywhere and they never seem to come back to even try to have an intelligent discussion about it.
2 GoddessWins 2014-07-16
I think what you are saying is:
Don't jump into a conversation on a topic you don't want to consider, just move on.
2 Hemperor_Dabs 2014-07-16
OP is offering a system that puts this fresh in people's minds when they click a post and sets the stage for community enforcement. A good idea since people plainly seem to have trouble following it on their own.
2 joekerr37 2014-07-16
love it!
2 bitbytebit 2014-07-16
At first I thought it was a waste of time, but as I read your proposal it grew on me. Sounds like a pretty good idea.
2 325504503 2014-07-16
I think this is a fantastic idea. Any thinker should be able to entertain an idea without subscribing to it.
Paraphrased from someone smarter than me.
2 carol-doda 2014-07-16
This is a very good idea. To think clearly you also need to imagine and probe beyond the surface of any subject no matter what, including conspiracies.
It is important to be able to say clearly what you are doing and not get tangled in surface debates. 4AS is an excellent tag. 100% support this idea.
2 TMconscious 2014-07-16
4AS! I support
1 [deleted] 2014-07-16
Paging u/assuredlyathrowaway
Am I doing this right to call him? I don't see the name like a link.
2 axolotl_peyotl 2014-07-16
Write it like this:
/u/assuredlyathrowaway
2 [deleted] 2014-07-16
Another slash! Okay, thanks for the help.
1 doitdoit2 2014-07-16
"Contrarian" views are already downvoted, removed and the user is stalked/doxxed. Why would you want even more of that?
And wouldn't everyone use the "4AS" tag? Isn't this a sub to discuss conspiracies, rather than just agree with whatever is posted?
1 [deleted] 2014-07-16
Like I already made clear, the tag would only be used for text posts. So people could not abuse it when posting links or articles.
And if someone wanted "for arguments sake" to discuss the lizard people, then obviously fewer people would enter into that thread.
If someone wanted "for arguments sake" to discuss the faking of the moon landing, then people could enter the convo and ask questions and argue over why, or discuss what would be gained or lossed from such a thing. But people would not be able to jump into those threads just to say "You're dumb for believing the moon landing was faked, here is why...".
Because it seems like people troll this site just to throw the official stories (that believe me, we have all heard a million times) around as some kind of excuse to drown out the discussions from going anywhere.
People here want to entertain ideas and some of them may sound crazy. 9/11 conspiracies sounds crazy to some people and to other people it is a given from which bigger discussions can be had.
Let those people build on their theories. They deserve the freedom to do that. If you are butthurt over someone's personal text post that they tag 4AS, just move on. Why do people NEED to try so hard to stop others from merely entertaining ideas for the sake of doing it.
-1 doitdoit2 2014-07-16
But THERE is the problem; "givens" are just ideologies that people don't want to change their mind on when it comes to things like conspiracies. We don't need another echo chamber, ESPECIALLY on a general sub like conspiracy.
Because it sucks to have an opinion and want to talk about it, but having it denied because some people don't like disagreement.
2 [deleted] 2014-07-16
We don't need an echo chamber but we also don't need a denial chamber. We need something in between and right now we only have the latter.
Yes, that is MY point. Leave those people alone if all you are bringing to the table is a denial of their premise. Believe it or not, many people here are extremely intelligent and don't want to argue issues that only scratch the surface.
On the flip side, some people here are so dumb (or more likely pretending to be) that they shouldn't be allowed to damage actual discussions from blooming because dummy couldn't be bothered to put the work into learning about the topic being discussed.
I don't want to convince you to believe aliens exist. I want to talk with people, who already believe that, ABOUT OTHER THINGS related to that topic. That is the entire point of my post.
1 doitdoit2 2014-07-16
Are you serious? I can't even tell. Go to anything on the front page here and look at the top comments (sorted by "hot" or "best"). Is it denial? No. Do they add anything to the conversation? No. More times than not, it's just agreement with the OP's post and maybe an attack on some group that wasn't even mentioned. Open your eyes, man!
I get that, but then what's the point? There are already dedicated subs for agreeing with each other for each subject. And they're already echo chambers. Go ahead. Go to r/UFOs or r/911truth and see how quickly you'll get banned for trying to debunk their hypotheses.
I guess I just don't get what's wrong with the downvote method. If you don't like a comment, don't read anything else by the user and don't comment! Nobody is forcing you to read and respond to each comment. You don't even have to respond to me here!
However, you're missing out on any hope of converting someone to your view. If someone creates a thread that mandates that the 9/11 Truth side is correct, how will that convince someone who believes the other side(s)? If they're not allowed to engage in discussion unless they lie, why is that a good thing?
I just think there's way too much censorship here and on the rest of reddit without even more rules being implemented to stifle discussion.
0 quantumcipher 2014-07-16
Hyperbole much? I mean, could you be any more mellow-dramatic?
Seeing as all of your posts here consist of thread-crapping, and that you hate the very idea of other people engaging in speculation, I can see why you would do the same with OP's idea.
1 doitdoit2 2014-07-16
I...what? Are you using extreme hyperbole to make fun of me for being hyperbolic?
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1 [deleted] 2014-07-16
Looks like the 'tards are getting butthurt.
I think that should count as another vote!!!
2 RandoKillrizian 2014-07-16
I like the title, it frames the narrative so perfectly for spoon feeding. I think it's a great idea you have, but is banning the way to go? I mean deleting comments will at least make them attempt to accept a premise, if we can get the mods to adhere to it. What's also not out of the realm of possibilities is doing something similar to what my gaming clan does on it's servers. Some of us have an ability to kick some to ban and then we have an almighty admin. He watches the watchers. It has worked famously. So we could have mods in training or something that scour comments and delete them, if they didn't need to be deleted can the mod undelete them though? This would lighten the load for mods have a lot of eyes on posts to clean up the sub and you wouldn't have to ban people. Everybody can make a mistake and break a rule sometimes shit happens. We don't want to turn the sub to shit because other people were trying to turn it to shit, know what I mean, or the terrorist win. Lol
1 953771 2014-07-16
Won't somebody please think about the trolls?!!?
1 88x3 2014-07-16
I don't like the deleting part. I only think deletion or bans should occur if it is spam. Let the conversation grow with these tags and let the people downvote posts they think don't contribute to the discussion.
1 [deleted] 2014-07-16
As much as I agree with the spirit of what you are saying, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity.
This subreddit has proven time and time again that the framework in place is flawed, broken, and the intelligent users are leaving to find greener pastures.
We need to make a change because the current results are, frankly, bullshit. For whatever reason we cannot trust the community to "downvote posts they think don't contribute" because the community itself has been compromised.
We need rules in place. I think mine is a good start.
1 quantumcipher 2014-07-16
A sound proposition. Before it can be implemented, however, I would like to see the other mods chime in, and ideally if not primarily, more feedback from the other members of the community.
-1 HuntingSpoon 2014-07-16
if it were easy i would have read more than just the title.
1 [deleted] 2014-07-16
Yes, you hit the nail on the head!!!
That is exactly what the problem is. It is like trying to teach a college physics class but young children keep entering whenever they want and they demand the teacher start explaining addition and subtraction.
The students of the class will never actually be able to move forward with their studies, because the discussion is constantly being reverted backwards to the very beginning.
In my experience, people who have a mind for conspiracies also have an inquisitive mind and love reading and watching documentaries and filling their head with info about the topic. When you are well informed and go to a place full of other informed people, it is beyond frustrating to continually be paused by people who (possibly on purpose) demand that you walk them step by step, just to reach the very beginning of the topic. And then they refuse to believe you. Its like "listen, I am not trying to convince you, I have done my homework on the subject and I like entertaining the idea of this conspiracy, even as an exercise in thinking!"
And half the time you want to question the motives of the people who do that. Because they appear everywhere and they never seem to come back to even try to have an intelligent discussion about it.