it doesn't matter if its good or bad for you the REAL ISSUE is that by dumping it in our water THEY ARE TAKING AWAY OUR CHOICE TO INJEST IT

Distill your water. Problem solved

Can you distill your shower water?

Can you? Yes. Is it too much of a hassle? Also yes.

So lets fight to stop it at the source

Are you willing to put effort into it if yes yes if no no

Not everyone had the ability to do pluming work in their residence. So why don't we all work adamantly toward removing it from the entire water supply instead of doing thousands of dollars of plumbing work to your residence, especially when some of us don't have that option without eviction?

Drinking distilled water is actually not good for you as the pure water will leech minerals from your bones and ions from your blood.

Actually Hydrofluoric Acid (they add silica to make Hydrofluorosilicic Acid which is like sand and easier to contain, store, and ship) boils at 226.4°F and water boils at 212°F. But that is pure water. Water with minerals, chlorine, microbes...tap water...could have a different boiling point and may be close enough to that of Hydrofluoric Acid that you may be distilling both at the same time while cutting down on the impurities in the water essentially concentrating the fluoride levels a little.

How do you distill the massive amount of fluoridated water that is already in every fruit and vegetable you eat?

Good question. Other than drying the food I really have no idea.

I've heard distilling doesn't remove fluoride, as the fluoride has a low boiling point.

You think you have a choice on what you ingest?

I'd laugh, but that is a pipe dream. Unless you run all your food and drink through a mass spectrometer, you don't really know what you are ingesting.

And the fact that it's extremely hard to remove once added.

You can always buy bottled water with no fluoride.

No you cant. Fluoride can be absorbed through the skin such as when you take a shower.

That's why the ice bucket challenge is so big right now, it causes ALS if you don't pay. the absorption is enhanced from cold water.

if you check the bottle, they've cottoned onto that

There is no way, short of analysis, to find out just what is in bottled water.

Bottled water costs more than gasoline

No it doesn't. A gallon of purified water is $.68 at my local grocery store.

with extra fluoride and bpa!

I said bottled in response to the previous comment

Nestle water has added fluoride as do many other "discount" bottled waters. Nestle is basically tap water. That said I also encourage people to buy filtered (use their own jug) or filter it themselves. Clean water is always a personal responsibility wherever you are. It's a pain.. but better to eat and drink healthy than accept poison crap out of convenience.

to shower with? yay i love bpa

and pay 100 times what we should for water? so I am born into a system not by choice and I am forced to work for companies to access clean water with my capital? fuck off bitch

Water is 3 or 4 bucks for 2 to 3 cases of deer park or other water. Try again gas is atleast 3.50 or 4 a gallon.

Oh i agree but ill never say that because we can still vote unless you got a felony. So you a little choice : /

Voting is rigged.

Most, not all bro.

If voting changed anything they'd make it illegal.

Apathy what a great attitude to have.

[deleted]

Um personal attack? Almost positive there is a rule about that.

While I agree apathy is not the way to be, I bet if we were to have people acknowledge that it's rigged and give them no votes to go on, it shows them we have the power to say we do not want to buy in two a shitty two party system where any of the candidates are terrible choices. Or to have people understand that their votes count when you choose a 'third party'.

I think the next election will be interesting. I don't know how long people can buy into the carnival ride. It has to end sometime lol.

I certainly hope so. I wish more people would just pay attention to these things more considering it impacts everyone's lives and the people who are put into power no longer serve the peoples interest, but their own and corporate interests (for the most part).

So true, we gotta look out for our own interest and not give our power away to someone else. Well put sir.

No, I think the people have a lot of power if they can unify but voting is a lost cause. We can't even get open source voting software. It's flawed at every level.

Well yea, haha.

Apathy what a great attitude to have.

Apathy? Could be the fluoride.

:) Good one

Here's a little something you might want to consider when discussing fluoridation:

Q. How does systemic fluoride work?

Stacy Wiegman, PharmD, Pharmacy, answered

Systemic fluoride works to help your teeth fend off tooth decay in two important ways. When young children consume fluoride in drinking water and other beverages or in supplements, the fluoride is absorbed into the gastrointestinal tract, taken up by the bloodstream and deposited into the permanent teeth as they are developing behind the gum line. Systemic fluoride makes those developing teeth stronger and better able to withstand the effects of cavity-causing acids and bacteria later on. Once the permanent teeth have erupted from the gum line (usually by the time a child is eight years old), systemic fluoride still offers benefits because it becomes incorporated into saliva, making that protective. Talk to your dentist about the benefits of systemic fluoride and whether you and your family are meeting your fluoride needs.

Into the stomach, into the blood, on into the saliva (and brain every other part of your body).

If Wegman is correct (and she certainly seems to be) we're all walking buckets of fluoride.

So, drink bottled water? What about your beer? Your soft drinks? Your "from concentrate" fruit juices? Were they manufactured using fluoridated municipal water?

What about your foods - soups, condiments, canned fruits and vegetables... anything that is processed with water?

Did you cook your pasta or beans or (whatever) using tap water? Guess what?

On a brighter note, I always used fluoridated water to wash my car, flush my toilet and water my lawn - and LOOK MOM! NO CAVITIES!!!

Fucking insanity.

When was that vote held? Oh yeah, that's right, it wasn't. Anyone want to bet that calls for such a vote would result in an avalanche of "conspiratard" accusations?

Once you've drunk Fluoridated water for 1 year, you'll never been the same again

How can we vote out flouride?

Well you can go to the city council meetings and start bugging the shit out of them but you will be scrutinized just like i am being because they will want evidence this is the case. Then you will have to deal with cognitive dissonance, it takes work.

We had a chance to vote on fluoride in the water?

Everyone with the right to vote can if they wish try to influence the opinion of your city council and then that can move to state. Also you can run for city council and make the decisions yourself given enough people are for it. This is how it works as far as I know. I could be completely wrong and if I am someone please point it out.

We voted to keep Floride out of our water system and the federal government threatened to withhold funding. Santa Cruz county, CA.

Voting is the illusion of choice.

I agree and disagree its not all or nothing. This duality we live in has made us think of everything in 50/50 that is just not how it is. Look at my city council I bet it would not take too damn much work to get it going but you get to the county level and its over with because they are all corrupt but you know some place out in the middle of now where might not have that big of an issue until it reaches state level. Look I really understand what you are saying where you are coming from but that really only applies to our politicians and the like. Obviously voting has no effect on them and has not for a very very long time.

Well I appreciated your essay and I posted it on my FB wall. Thanks for taking the time to write it.

Thank you very much sir or madaam, I only wish I had put more time into it.

it's* x2

nowhere*

I really don't understand this point at all. You can get free spring water from tons of places, you can also get extremely cheap RO water in large quantity from places like Culligan and such.

There's really no force involved. Use the city water for utility water, and drink the water you want to drink?

That's a really bad retort.

Some people don't have access to other sources of water due to poverty, illness, etc.

The fact is they make a tremendous effort to clean the water up and they just poison it afterwards with fluoride. They do it with OUR tax dollars.

Don't forget. There's no shower filter on the market that removes fluoride. (at least not the last time I searched)

So, unless you want to empty a couple hundred of those little water bottles in the tub, you're SOL.

access to other sources limited by poverty? Public springs are free, privately owned springs that you gain permission to use are free.

Installing a reverse osmosis system is less than 20 dollars a month and takes zero effort on the customer from install to maintenance.

I don't think I understand how someone who finds this to be an important topic(which I don't argue), but then finds the logical ways around the problem to be unappealing?

Reverse osmosis only removes 10% of it

Simply not true. I've had my water tested multiple times due to some plumbing issues and because I'm a little anal about my drinking water. I've seen the test waters taken first hand and gotten the lab results sent directly to me each time.

i hate to be that guy but, source? ro removes more than distillation but does not remove all, is all i know. if it reduces it from the synthetically high to just below a natural level i guess thats good enough for me.

I don't recall but it's up there just google how to remove fluoride from your water that is what I did to write my paper

Mine has been kicking for 4 years, and I've only replaced cartridges six times. About $3.50/month. (For my fancy three cartridge system)

Uses about $3 per month in energy usage for its self cleaning system, but I dump that into the garden (because its high in nutrients)

Yeah, I don't even own mine. It is rented and the rental is 13.99 a month and my filters are replaced by the company I rent them from, every 6 months whether they are half done, or barely done.

That's certainly not something you should be renting.

Buy one straight out. Much, much cheaper. ($672 vs $218 at 4 years) I don't mind the 5 minutes it takes to change out the filters every 9 months.

yeah I should have been more clear, I'm more 'rent to own' the unit.

I pay 13.99 a month, most of that is payment on the unit, for 3 years, then I get a payoff to finish paying for it.

I signed up for the system when I first moved to my new house, and at that time I had poor water with a lot of iron in the well, and I didn't have the cash flow at that time to out right purchase one.

Basically I'm overpaying for it, on a payment plan, because when I bought the house I couldn't afford the whole unit at once along with the iron filtration and hard water solutions.

Made by DuPont...Really think you can trust the hand that poisons you? I don't.

that is why they invented TDS meters

Why would I have to go out of my way to make sure that on an individual level I shouldn't be affected by dangerous chemicals in my water when it is not just an individual issue. There are towns in the states that do not have this issue. We should not be impacted as a whole about it. This option is a temporary solution on a small scale and I agree it should be used but only as an option until we have it removed entirely.

Is it really going out of your way? I mean... really? It's 15 minute phone call for the most part.

I don't think someone who finds this topic to be a very important one is going to consider it going out of your way to choose another option.

I was actually referring to you saying to just install an osmosis filter, not participating in discussion with your local government. Sorry I should have made that clearer.

Spring water isn't free and if you're taking it from an actual spring that's illegal as that is the states water. But that's besides the point since I already pay for my city water I should be able to choose whether or not it is medicated as I have good dental hygeine and don't need extra flouride.

I don't know where you live, but here in texas we have some called riparian rights

Not true. There are public springs all over the place. There are 2 within 20 miles of me, and many more that there is basically zero chance of getting in trouble for.

You pay for city water, that again is a choice, you can pay for a well instead if applicable, you can again... install reverse osmosis like I mentioned.

You may not like the other choices, but they are still there, and relatively comparably priced.

I also pay taxes for water fountains should I just stop using those too? You're being pedantic anyhow. Flouridation minorly improves the dental health of poor people who don't brush and does have negative side effects. I've known multiple people with dental fluorosis. One of them was a girl I dated who was so self-conscious about it she had veneers put on all of her front teeth. Pointing out that one can acquire water without fluoride is not relevant to the discussion.

I think it's entirely relevant. There does exist people who are pro-fluoridated water, and their opinion on the matter is worth the same weight as your opinion.

You can choose water sources for cheaper/similarly priced and not get it. They can choose similarly priced and get it.

Taxes don't matter here at all. I pay for local schools with my taxes, I don't have kids. We pay lots of taxes that we see no benefit from. That's just how taxes work.

In this discussion we are weighing the pros and cons of water fluoridation. In my opinion the cons outweigh the pros. In your opinion.. People can get fluoride-free water if they really want it.

Yes, I am not arguing the pros and cons of fluoride.

Only arguing that the people claiming they are 'forced' into it, are misinforming.

Your skin still absorbs the fluoride when you shower.

So, yeah, you're still getting it whether you swallow it or not.

As I said... you can still use extremely cheap filtration, or choose not to use city water right?

When the fact is that you have choices, how can you argue that it is unavoidable?

Extremely cheap filtration that doesn't get rid of the fluoride.

Or stop showering.

Those are two excellent solutions.

Read up on RO systems. They remove up around 95% of fluoride, and when most water only has 2ppm.... you are getting more fluoride from lettuce than you are from water at that point, and I doubt people are going to stop eatting the plethora of foods that contain fluoride.

Fluoride from lettuce is not identical to fluoride from industrial waste.

Just like oil from olives is not identical to oil from Halliburton.

I honestly don't think even the most hardened fluoride hater is going to be worried about the .02ppm of fluoride.

Indeed, you may honestly think that - but you may also be 100% mistaken. Fluoride exposure is cumulative, and many folks desire to have ZERO (as minimal as possible) exposure.

Well I'm not going to argue with one of these hypothetical people who thinks something like .01ppm and less fluoride, which doesn't absorb into the skin past about 60ish% efficiency, is actually going to hurt them.

That type of person should probably not walk outside for fear of the high concentrations of pollutants in the air.

Some places have made it illegal to use/store rainwater.

Only on grand scale - check this link out.

Nobody talking about storing rainwater though.

That's another option. Not everyone has access to wells, nor the capacity to get springwater either. What other options do you have to contribute? Filtration already is supposed to happen on a local level, you pay taxes for that. Shouldn't you be getting what you pay for, and what you pay for to improve your life?

I don't believe that the majority of people cannot access spring water. Springs dot the landscape on most of the US as much as small lakes and ponds do.

Filtration costs next to nothing if the topic is that important, and it clearly is that important for some people.

Wells are accessible to most people, even in most cities, when done with the right permits, but this option is the more expensive, and why bother since other cheap options are already there? Still though, it's an option.

People in major cities will have a harder time than those not in smaller cities/towns. How are you gonna get that water back home? How easy is it to store water like that? Probably not cheaper than the taxes you already pay and bill you have to get access to it in your home.

In that case the filtration system would be the best option, but again I say you pay for the services as they are already, why not have the votes come in and have flouride removed from the water indefinitely. That is the best option to fulfill for everyone.

That is the best option to fulfill for everyone.

Is it though? Cause you aren't on the right side of this debate.

There are people with legitimate points who are pro-fluoride. I'm not saying they are right, and I'm not saying you are right. However both sides have legitimate concerns and neither side has a stronghold on the truth.

It is, because that option impacts everyone without including an additive not everyone wants. That is a neutral decision.

Not really.

The only two choices are A) Cities do it for us, and we don't have to handle the concentrated source of the material which is dangerous, which causes the (minority) of people who are totally against it to have to pay a small amount more to remove it.

or B) Cities don't do it and the people that want it have to add it themselves paying probably a similarly small amount to do it, and then normal people have to handle concentrated dangerous material.

Either way one side has to pay a slight bit more than the other. The way it is now (which may be changing, I admit, but as of now the "Don't Cares" + "Do Wants" are the majority compared to the "Do Not Wants"), the minority have to pay the slightly higher fee.

Even if they did change it, you are only changing who has to pay the slightly higher fee, you aren't making any financial changes.

Because it invalidates the conspiracy.

No you cannot the only real way to get rid of it 100% all of the time is with distilling your water. I did a paper on it trust me.

I already pointed out that it's 95ish% in another comment.

Are people really going to get up in arms about that incredibly trace amount? I really don't think so.

And I read on that thread that even trace amounts were effective. Best bet remove it all don't take a risk

Remove it all, not gonna happen. The ability to remove all of it, since even natural spring water contains it, would mean you'd need to filter it to such a point you would have water that was basically pure h2o. Good luck drinking that.

Now who's up in arms over technicalities?

I have no idea what you are talking about now.

Are you actually trying to say that miniscule trace amounts of fluoride are bad? and that we should remove all fluoride from water?

A little bit of dirt is still a little bit dirt but yeah I get what you're saying.

What about rainwater?

Rainwater is usually worse than city water in hardness and in dissolved solids.

It should be filtered especially if being used from a large tank for entire home use. The iron content of rainwater can be anywhere from .7 to 1.8 from what I've learned in the past. Which is too high, and will destroy any appliances you use it on.

I'm assuming there is extremely trace fluoride in it, but there very well may be zero.

Either way, it is worse for you to drink all the different elements and such. Like, lead for example, and Ozone, as well as big cities are going to contain lots of pollutants, and even the farmland chunks of the US is going to contain pesticides and other chemicals.

Depends on where you live, if you get rainwater with something like 200ppm dissolved solids, then you are probably just fine.

Filtered Rainwater however, is probably amazing.

Well our barrels are up on the CA coast, but we drink the city stuff. Honestly, while it seems pretty clear that the benefits of flouride are non-existent, entire civilizations have thrived and fallen in areas where the flouride levels are naturally higher than what is added to the municipal sources of most cities.

Most people on that side will claim that it's a different type of fluoride that occurs naturally. I've never personally seen any study that says natural fluoride is perfectly safe, and ours isn't though.

I don't think the question is ever "perfectly safe", the question is, what harm can be shown? I mean obviously if there's no benefit to it we shouldn't do it either, but it's not easy to measure "manipulability", if you will, in a clinical trial.

That's because you seem to have missed it completely. Like he said, the real issue is the principle involved - the fact that this mass medication is done without the consent of those subject to it.

I didn't miss the point. Everyone knows about fluoride in the water, I remember it was even taught in elementary school, or middle school. The information isn't hidden away and you can call your water dept and find out if they follow the suggested EPA levels of fluoride 2ppm, or if they are nearer the maximum EPA levels 4ppm.

It still makes it a choice, you don't have to have city water, you don't have to decline an extremely cheap RO filter if you do choose city water.

Well I mean it IS hidden in plain sight though lol. You cant SEE it in the water but its there :) /s

Actually if you buy a house, you are legally required to pay for access to that water, at least in the City I own my home in. I pay 6 dollars a month to have access to the 4 dollars of water I use.

I own a house and no such thing exists. I have no idea where that is a law, but it sounds like a city ordinance of some sort, not an actual law.

City Ordinance = Law

To be clear, it's an uncommon ordinance and not reletive to the experience of the majority.

If it contradicts the constitution its invalid. This is a constitutional republic. The constitution is the highest law in the land

It sure should be. It's gone though, we have no rights. I was pulled over by a state trooper and forced out of the car for sushi of having a weapon, attempted to lock my vehicle as I exited and the trooper forced his hand through the window so I could not shut the window while he unlocked the door.

We have no rights, I've seen it myself.

The issue is the danger it makes to people, not the acknowledgement it exists.

No the issue was that nobody is forced into it. I haven't argued anything else other than that.

Just how are they not forced into it? Because they have the option to install an RO filter??

I'd say if your municipality puts it in your water, you're forced to have it - as you don't get an option to have it without (unless you have the resources to filter it out). RO filters may be cheap to you - but to those without such resources, they're costly/prohibitive. (plus they waste a good deal of water in their use - which is a definite negative to those in drought-stricken areas, or those of us concerned about usage).

Like I said though. If it's that important for someone, they'll pay 15-20 a month for the filtration system.

If that cost is prohibitive, then I don't think it's actually very important to them.

It still makes it a choice, you don't have to have city water, you don't have to decline an extremely cheap RO filter if you do choose city water.

What options besides city water do you have?? You have multiple water mains running into your home then I guess? Who is providing the alternatives?

Most "extremely cheap" (to you) RO filters are those which have a single tap, and only filter the water coming out of it - which doesn't affect the entire house's water supply, as you seem to be inferring. (You still will shower in the fluoridated water, etc.)

I personally have well water. At some point in the past, this home was on city water, and so I do technically have 2 main water inlets to my house. The city water has been shut off for many years, but the pipe still exists out to the main. (though I'm sure since no water has been flowing it is likely corroded past the point of repair.)

The people you are speaking about who only have single taps, they have 5 or 8 gallon RO tanks.

I have the same filtration as those people do, however I have a 45 gallon tank that is directly out of my iron filtration system, and in place even before my water heater.

Now I've run a full bath (faucet is 2.5gpm), and 15 minutes later my g/f has run a full bath, and we've been unable to empty that tank and outpace the filtration, I have a quite large bathtub too, much bigger than most.

It isn't the filter that is the limiting factor, it's the tank.

It's not just drinking it. There are studies out showing that fluoride can go right through your skin, so if you shower, bathe, swim, or anything with it, you are still getting those infinitesimal doses. Against your will. That lead to Alzheimer's disease, an average of 7 less IQ points in children, and other neurological disorders, (as well as broken hips in the elderly through fluorosis of the bones).

Okay, but like I've said, you aren't forced to use city water in your home. Other choices do exist, and are priced similarly to city water.

I'm not saying someone shouldn't avoid fluoride if that is what they determine to be the best idea.

I'm saying that it isn't that hard to avoid it, and there is no force involved in the choice.

Okay, but like I've said, you aren't forced to use city water in your home.

Please thoroughly explain how to source alternative water in one's home - and not via some RO / filter "solution" - I want to know who else is available as a vendor for water for a home, as you seem to imply. Perhaps you envision living like those in Gaza do, with water tanks on every home? Every place I've lived has had 1 water source, and I've never seen an option to choose where to get my home's water from.

By your "logic", you could also argue that you're not forced to use the natural gas that is piped into your home, or you're also not forced to breath the air in your home, etc. etc. That line of thinking can get pretty asinine fairly quickly..

You could have a tank on your home. The stories about people being sued by the city are blasted by the media as if they are happening all over the place, when they really aren't.

However, it is a bit primitive I will agree.

Well water is a perfectly valid source of water, and someone who finds this topic can easily use filtration on their home until such a point that they are able to have well water.

Spring water is also entirely viable for drinking/cooking/cleaning, and everything except for bathing.

Filtration can't be excluded as you say, because it is literally the cheapest most cost effective way to deal with it. After an upfront purchase, it costs like a quarter a day if that. It is a perfectly good solution until such time as you can get yourself into a springwater/well water situation.

People who live in huge cities, filtration is simply the best course of action, so it can't be neglected as if it's not a good one.

Sure, agreed - filtration is fine, if you can afford it, and if there's enough water to go around, as it's rather wasteful. The thing is, we're (collectively) providing a utility & infrastructure for folks to use and, by your logic, you just presume everyone can afford to take corrective measures and amend the utility provided. I can assure you, not everyone has those kinds of resources (and here in drought-stricken CA, if everyone was RO'ing their water, we'd have an even bigger problem with supply, as we just don't have enough water to do that). Also, i don't think you can just drill a well and get water any/everywhere (like on the coasts, for example), to say nothing of the fact people would be paying for a utility they aren't using - where's the logic there? Wouldn't it make a helluva lot sense to just NOT fluoridate the water supply, and let people fluoridate themselves as they see fit? I fail to see how this forced medication seems like a good idea. Your solution of "then take corrective measures" just fails the logic test - when it would be far easier to just not put the stuff in the supply to begin with. Where is the big win here? The only benefit pro-fluoride people say is that it's good for your teeth - well, those benefits end when the water leaves your mouth. Why ingest it when it's known to cause health concerns when it's consumed??

I've said this multiple times but nobody really answers...

What kind of hypothetical people are you using as an example that cannot afford filtration? If it's an honestly important thing... who cannot afford it? There is no sense to this.

The rest of your post is debatable from both sides I admit, I'm not debating pros and cons, I'm debating whether it is FORCED upon people.

I sense your cognitive dissonance. You presume that all people have the necessary resources to filter their water. I've repeatedly tried to get you to consider that there are many folks who don't have the resources to filter their water (no matter how economical you feel it is), as well as the fact that there isn't enough water to have people RO filter the stuff out, but these facts seem to be oblivious to you. The initial costs to setup an RO filter are minimally a few hundred dollars (up to thousands), plus every year another hundred or so to replace the filters. Not to mention the increased usage, as to RO filter water, creates a LOT of waste water. This may not be much to you, but to more and more Americans, this is a very substantial, unaffordable cost - which could be eliminated by just not putting the stuff in the water to begin with, and letting us decide how much, when, and how to properly use the fluoride.

To argue this isn't "force" - seems like you're trolling. You suggest that the municipalities putting it in the water supplies, without the consent of the populace, is somehow not a measure of FORCE. Indeed, that's exactly what is happening and constitutes unsolicited FORCED medication on a widespread scale. Why not just let us fluoridate as we see fit? Why the need to have it forced - yes FORCED, upon us without consent? Unfortunately, fluoridation via water is not a choice in most of the USA.

It's like you're arguing that "well, if ya don't like pepperonis on your pizza, you can always just pick them off" - well, when I order a cheese pizza, i don't expect, nor do I want, pepperoni on it - even if you and the government just LOVE pepperoni and know how great they are. It's lunacy.

I've repeatedly tried to get you to consider that there are many folks who don't have the resources to filter their water

Yes, thats why I asked you to explain it, because it makes no sense!

The initial costs to setup an RO filter are minimally a few hundred dollars (up to thousands), plus every year another hundred or so to replace the filters.

Untrue, you can very easily start the whole process for about 100 dollars fully installed, along with around 15 bucks a month for renting. Nationwide brands such as Culligan and Clearwater both offer such services. 100 dollar setup and less than 15 a month... this is what is stiffling the populace into utterly being unable to afford it?

a LOT of waste water. This may not be much to you, but to more and more Americans, this is a very substantial, unaffordable cost

I don't believe this is true

You somehow argue that the municipalities putting it in the water supplies, without the consent of the populace, is somehow not a measure of FORCE

They are putting it into an optional service that you are under no pressure to purchase from them, especially considering you know what you are getting into when you purchase/rent the home. None of your argument stands up when you realize, you are under zero obligation to rent, or purchase a home on city water, nor are you under any obligation to keep that water turned on.

I fail to see any force being levied when once again, you've not shown that anyone who can afford basic water from a municipality, can't possibly afford a few extra bucks, if this debate on fluoride is that important to them.

Ahh to live in your America where everyone has disposable income. I presume it must be nice! You summed up your position very succinctly when confronted with facts which created your cognitive dissonance:

I don't believe this is true

Indeed. You seem to exist in a rather amazing universe where everyone has plenty of resources and RO filters magically don't waste water. Your rigid position brings this study to mind of how the wealthy lack empathy.

My position stems from none of you being able to explain to me how someone who finds this specific that important, cannot afford it.

Once again, you've explained nothing, and claimed a lot.

It seems your position stems from your inability to realize that not everyone has spare resources.

It seems yours stems from an inability to explain your position of how it's possible to not have a few bucks a month for something claimed so important.

when you shower the water gets in your pores there is no escaping it

Like I said on my previous comment. There are other choices other than city water.

Since other choices do exist, how can you say it is unavoidable?

Then don't drink tap water.

Fuck you and this ignorant bullshit. Just don't drink that one source of water in your home that you pay tax money to have filtered and cleaned so that you can drink it....

Are you a fucking idiot or just an asshole?

I think it is "c: All of the above."

Bahahah. Well considering I pay for Water and not drinkable tap water that is irrelevant. That being said my city does not add Fluoride. But you know I totally trust some hack up fact job on /r/conspiracy to tell me it is THE DEVIL.

Bahahah.

Ignorance.

Well considering I pay for Water

So do we, through our tax money, you thick fuck.

and not drinkable tap water that is irrelevant.

It is relevant, because the whole world isn't you, you ignorant fuck.

Why in the fuck should I pay for separate bottled water, when I pay tax money to have drinkable water access directly at my house through the tap?

That being said my city does not add Fluoride.

What state?

But you know I totally trust some hack up fact job

Saying that doesn't make it true, fluoride shows no signs of reducing the amount of cavities, based on several studies done in both the US and the UK, read this you ignoramus.

to tell me it is THE DEVIL.

Nobody is using such hyperbole, you are making false claims.

I love how you bring up things like use of "hyperbole" as if this is some sort of respectful discussion then call people "ignorant fucks." You are really cute. There are plenty of alternatives that don't include purchasing bottled water if you are that afraid of the fluoridation of water. You do realize that activist website that you cited is making their own graphs from those studies and data? There is little relevant information that is actually conveyed supporting their confirmation bias. But who wants to actually go through the work to determine statistical significance and then finding if there is an actually point of that significance. Certainly won't find it in your little circle jerk thread. Have a nice day :)

"Why in the fuck should I pay for separate bottled water, when I pay tax money to have drinkable water access directly at my house through the tap?"

You do have drinkable water through your house, your horseshit is the only thing rendering it undrinkable.

"flouridealert.org"

Sounds like a credible source. You really are retarded aren't you?

[deleted]

This argument has been de-bunked. Go back to sleep.

Your post is riddled with fallacies. Your genetic fallacy is almost text book. Not only that, but you couple it with both an anecdotal and appeal to authority fallacy and top it off by begging the question. Let me explain.. You argue that a supremely qualified person (appeal to authority) was sent to Germany where he was told by people (anedotal) about a plot of Nazi Germany (genetic) to use "infinitesimal" does of sodium fluoride to "reduce an individual's power to resist domination by slowly poisoning and narcotisizing a certain area of the brain" (begging the question).

You then go on to argue that sodium fluoride decouples DNA by linking to a study that doesn't help your cause at all. In actuality, what you did here is called a fallacy of composition. You are assuming that because large amounts of sodium fluoride being injected directly into the brains of rats causes DNA damage, all other uses of sodium fluoride must cause DNA damage as well.

let me quote your response in a separate fluoride thread:

This thread is littered with ignorance like this. Sad day we live in where so many people are afraid of something that is proven to prevent cavities when used properly.

Not only do you need to diversify your language so you don't look like a bot, you also need to realize that there is no link to oral ingestion of fluoride ever helping reduce cavities or dental related diseases. Topical treatment, sure, but not from the water supply.

You realize that in order to ingest fluoride you need to topically introduce it to your teeth.

also see this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoride_therapy

http://ec.europa.eu/health/scientific_committees/opinions_layman/fluoridation/en/l-2/5.htm

There is no clear advantage of water fluoridation over direct application for prevention, and systemic exposure via drinking water is unlikely to benefit people whose teeth have already grown. Europe-wide trends show a reduction in tooth decay in 12 year-olds regardless of whether water is fluoridated or not.

Direct, topical application is the most effective way to prevent tooth decay. It keeps up fluoride levels in the mouth but does not normally raise them appreciably elsewhere.

In children, there is a very narrow margin between the beneficial effects of reducing decay and exceeding the dose which causes dental fluorosis.

Given peoples discontent with the practice of, and the fact that little to no science exists showing benefit of and the cost factor, there isn't much of an argument to have to keep water fluoridation going. The happy medium is to accept that topical treatment works exceedingly well, and ingestion through water supply, even though trace amounts are "topical" there, that the water supply being fluoridated does next to nothing. As proven with peer reviewed studied and real world examples of 3rd world nearly ending tooth decay in some places without water fluoridation.

look like a bot eh?

Perhaps you are just starting your college writing class, but those are not logical fallacies. They are argumentation strategies. Appealing to authority is kind of a good thing.

I guess you missed your beginning writing classes.

https://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/fallacies_list.html

Appealing to improper authority is a fallacy, not appealing to authority in general.

Arguments from authority do not count; too many authorities have been mistaken too often

Carl Sagan

But Carl Sagan is a known authority, telling us not to trust authorities...

Where's that Inception sound when you need it?

BRAAAHHHHHMMMMM

"Hi guys, I'm a freshman in college. I just learned how rhetoric works in my super cool philosophy 101 class. I'm obviously much smarter than all you guys."

It's too bad I'm 31 years old and not in college..

It's saddening how true that is..

THANK YOU. My eye was starting to twitch by the end of this post. I'm glad I don't have to take the time to do what you just did.

*Anecdotal

I said it twice and only once was it a typo.

Annoying when you have grammar police on your ass isn't it?

Notice how this guy doesn't challenge the argument but instead attacks OP relentlessly with his use of logical fallacy. Proloix uses ad hominem attacks because he cannot refute the argument with facts so he resorts to character assassination by way of insulting and trying to discredit OP by spouting off his imagined flaw of reasoning. Prolix also tries to misrepresent and sway the argument by logical fallacy excuse because he thinks it will smear OPs argument thus commiting another logical fallacy called strawman.

Whatever you say man. There are 55 logical fallacies, I am sorry I do not feel like learning all that just to prove a point. We are all allowed to have an opinion.

While we all know fluoride is generally terrible for us, the previous poster does bring up a point.

Many of the things we hold dear to life are poisonous in large quantities and when not properly ingested etc.

This isn't a scientific approach to linking the two. There's better evidence out there than this Chinese study I'm sure.

Maybe so but these guys posting "There are no studies lul" is a load of bs. There are tons of them. Its up to you and everyone else to take personal responsibility for what goes into your mouth. That is how I feel. I feel that at the minimum I have at the least put forth the effort. I can only do so much. I am not here to Convince you its dangerous. I am here to present and idea that I believe is the case. if you do not think I am right, well so be it. I have no qualm. Though what does bother me is if all that is true and its in our water. Why not take it serious? Sooner or later there will be indisputable evidence or it being benign or dangerous. I can't wait till then.

here to end this once and for all

There's better evidence out there than this Chinese study I'm sure.

how about a Harvard study

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/features/fluoride-childrens-health-grandjean-choi/

Solid retort.

Thank you.

Pretty sure /u/faaaack wasn't complimenting you.

We are all allowed to have an opinion.

Yes we are. The problem is that you presented your argument as fact not opinion.

Well sue me

Meaning that your thread is basically worthless.

Ok

"I'm too lazy to learn all of that" actually isn't a good response if you were wondering. I agree that fluoride is awful and shouldn't be added to public water but if you string a list of fallacies together and call it proof, you're still wrong.

Cool bro. I never said i'm lazy and that's like learning a college course buddy. 55 definitions? I did not have that many in my statistics class for college. Why should I have to conform to your perception?

Yourlogicalfallacyis.com

...bro

Your name says it allllllll brooooo

There are 55 logical fallacies, I am sorry I do not feel like learning all that just to prove a point.

That's one of the funniest things I've read in a while.

You must laugh at everything...

[deleted]

More information is never a bad thing. Thank you for the comment. There is so many connections its crazy. I remember looking into cholorella as a health food before and noticed on the wikipedia page that the Carnegie institution was involved in researching it in the 40's and 50's. Just stood out because its not just them its the Rockefellers and more. Here is the wiki. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorella Always makes me wonder when I see a lot of those names.

[deleted]

Sure, but if it really wasn't a breakfast food before and you can see how common it is today, that's all we need to know. Bernays is the real deal and if he wanted to push something into the psyche of America he was very good at it.

Pork is a traditional breakfast food in the form of bacon / sausages, as part of the internationally consumed 'English Breakfast'.

Sorry, maybe I'm stupid, but could I get the ELI5 on the pork for breakfast?

A bacon sandwich is equivalent to smoking 4 cigarettes

Thanks, I never knew pork was so bad for my lungs!

As in years off life

"this is like losing an hour of your life for every bacon sandwich you eat. To put this into context, every time you smoke 20 cigarettes, this will take about five hours off your life."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-28797106

lolwat? source?

"this is like losing an hour of your life for every bacon sandwich you eat. To put this into context, every time you smoke 20 cigarettes, this will take about five hours off your life."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-28797106

I have read that book and talk about the coup in Guatemala, How Bernays helped get 50 percent of the market smoking (women like you said) in bars and dinner discussions, and its funny how many people look at me in disgust as if I have no idea how the world works. The next thing they say is how do you feel about santa clause and UFO's, then say or fluoride in the water. and I just feel like, I dont know. sad.

I have been reading about soy, and how it is related to estrogen, and how almost every mother has been feeding their kids soy milk, or how before the standard was IRON enriched baby formula! When did we decide that soy milk is better than a mothers breast?

Soy milk for babies has been banned where I live

I'm curious as to why there is no mention of its effects upon the pineal gland, the organ in the brain believed to be responsible for our perception of our "third eye".

As I meditate often, this was enough evidence for me. No need for further investigation on the topic as far as I am concerned. Though I appreciate the extra effort you put in to include this extra info.

But really, why no mention of the pineal gland? Did I overlook it or something?

I am too tired to continue it for today. I planned on literally giving the entire history of it but w.e. Yes it effects the pineal gland and it also causes calcium problems. Which actually is why you get a calcified pineal gland, they don't call it a fluoridated pineal gland do they? lol Also I picked up a new word today when researching and its called Osteofluorosis: "a generalized disturbance of bones caused by chronic fluorine poisoning and characterized by the development of multiple exostoses. There is lameness, ease of fracture of bones and mottling and pitting of the teeth." which is insanely ironic. The reason why is because you hear all the time to consume all the calcium you can, that can be a good thing if your other minerals are in check namely Magnesium. The problem though is how fluoride interacts with calcium.

Here I will just paste the bit:

As far back as 1993 the U.S. Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry reported on the toxicological profile of fluorides and stated “because fluoride interacts with calcium ions needed for effective neurotransmission, fluoride can affect the nervous system."

In addition the Journal of Biological Chemistry found that fluoride not only inhibits enzymatic metabolism but that it also functions to prevent vital calcium and magnesium reactions as well as dramatically destabilising calcium binding in the body. Furthermore the Journal Environmental Toxicology and Chemistry, found that systemic calcium and magnesium levels in the human body are depleted as a result of fluoride intoxication. The bio-availability of fluoride and the role of calcium were also reported as a matter of some concern by the UK Medical Research Council (MRC) in 2002. They raised serious questions as to the health risks of water fluoridation in geographic areas with low calcium and magnesium levels such as found in large areas of Ireland, particular Cork, Kerry. Limerick, Mayo and Donegal. Areas which also have an increased level of hypothyroidism most likely brought on from the increased bio-availability of fluoride in soft waters.

Fluoride is known to be capable of inhibiting a number of important enzymes in the human body, including preglycolytic enzymes, phosphatases, and cholinesterase. In addition, it is reported by the United States National Library of Medicine, that inhibition of one or more enzymes controlling cellular glycolysis may result in binding or precipitation of calcium as calcium fluoride. Perhaps one of the most alarming potential consequences of fluoride exposure, as highlighted in the Journal of Nuclear Medicine in January of 2012 (titled: Association of vascular fluoride uptake with vascular calcification and coronary artery disease.) is that a significant correlation exists between fluoride uptake and calcification of the major arteries, including coronary arteries.

That is, you are at a higher risk of having a heart attack with increased exposure to fluoride, for example by consuming fluoridated water

It would behoove you to have a bit of knowledge of psychology or neuro-chemistry to see why calcium being effected could have negative consequences. I hope I don't have to try to explain that one tired rofl...

Osteofluorosis: "a generalized disturbance of bones caused by chronic fluorine poisoning and characterized by the development of multiple exostoses. There is lameness, ease of fracture of bones and mottling and pitting of the teeth."

This would only be caused by an extreme amount of fluoride ingestion, like this case where a woman brushed 18 times a day and swallowed the fluoride toothpaste, because she liked the taste. Show me a study where just ingesting flouride in water would cause something drastically higher than the average of 1.5 micromol/L

I am pretty much done posting studies. Seems every other poster challenges me in some psychological match to prove them wrong. That's not for me to do. It is up to you to take personal responsibility for your own health. Anyways, I literally just found out about that term. (which was stated right before I said that) So I am not gonna try to speculate on something I have not enough knowledge on. That would be quite pretentious wouldn't you say?

I started to notice when I started reading product labels, name brand toothpaste has the scariest product labels I have ever seen, its says "If ingested, Contact poison control immediately" thats on toothpaste....for kids....that tastes like bubble gum...

here is the MSDS for sodium floride: http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9927595

dont worry about the haters, they dont realize how fluoride studies on LDL(lowest lethal) dosages mean nothing in terms of its long term heath affects which is basically the same shit like vioxx, which gets out there with only 90 day studies done, then kill a bunch of people, then get recalled, people don't to like to believe they have been fooled

Nailed it, I started reading labels in about 2006 and that really opened my eyes. I had to actually be responsible and learn about what I am eating because it really through me off to know that their is like 40 ingredients in a cracker... most of which I cant tell where they came from lol. That's my go too thing If you don't know what it is, then why is it in your food. Yea big pharma could sell crack as a prescription if they had a 90 day trial and only half the people committed suicide within a weak. I am exaggerating but its pretty much true.

You know its hilarious to me and probably only me but when people offer me a head ache pill or something I say no thanks I don't do drugs and I really mean it. But I truly believe in psychadelics being a tool for good in the world and smoke da bud. But see in my mind those are not "drugs" they are plants and shrooms and cacti. Soo yea. At least I know I am not gonna lose my mind on some natural stuff.

I remember being in jail seeing this dude all fucked up on prescription medicine. He looked lifeless like a functioning zombie, quite literally. He groaned and moaned but never spoke, seemed like he was seriously in a whole nother place or just unconciously functioning. That has to be one of the worst things you could do to your self. Allowing these people to guide your life for you.

i dont do drugs cept for weed lol 420 blaze it bro

Hey man you do what makes you happy alright? Joe dirt that shit to the max. Also you forgot to capitalize the I and you did not put NoScope360fggt :)

anyway*

Well you talk an awful lot about science for not really understanding much, so I'd have to say it's par for the course.

You sure assume a lot for having never met me.

I just read through some comment history, and I only assumed one thing, not a lot. I guess your math skills aren't great either, it's okay though.

I am very strong in many subjects but yea I am piss poor at math. Sorry we are all not mathmaticians.

Dont worry about math, it's seriously overrated.

I agree, our universe might be made up of some bad ass equations and super cool number combinations and stuff but damn I would much rather just look at a painting. I like the abstract more than the linear in most cases

mathematicians*

Apparently it's not just math, eh?

Sleep deprivation OP lol maybe its the fluoride O_o also I am kinda w.e its not necessarily a big deal to me if I make a few grammatical mistakes.

affects*

affected*

This makes so much sense, fluoride must be contributing to the now widespread mthfr gene mutation.

Perhaps because the 'third eye' is just mysticism?

Perhaps in certain circumstances the notion of the third eye is viewed in that way. But, by seeing that the notion of the third eye and the religious correlations of mysticism are not mutually inclusive, this is not necessarily always the case.

No it isn't. It's a very real, functional part of many animal's anatomy. In humans, the organ is not developed to that extent, and is known as the pineal gland, a vestige of the parietal eye. The pineal gland is a part of the endocrine system, and governs the body's levels of melatonin, which is responsible, or plays a part in many important functions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melatonin).

But it's only humans drinking tap water

This is an excellent speech on the topic: http://www.radio4all.net/index.php/program/73676

Flouride ruined my teeth before I was 10 years old with brown/white discoloration. I still got cavities.

When I went off the stuff, I stopped getting headaches as often and felt more clear in my head. Meditation and concentration became way easier.

Between the mercury fillings and flouride, I spent the first 30 years of my life probably 10 iq points below my actual level of intelligence, and who knows what other effects.

It's amazing, it's well known that babies, who don't even have teeth yet, are harmed most by flouride but in 95% of grocery stores you can only get 'infant water' with flouride added. And unless it says specifically, i hope, 'no flouride added' all 'natural' and 'spring' water has flouride added because it is just tap water from new jersey or something.

Good post.

Here is the real kicker. Babies ingesting fluoride before their blood brain barrier is formed. I just cant even imagine how much effect has.

Yeah, it makes me angry. It's for your teeth but they don't have teeth, what can the possible reason be?

We are born with our baby teeth and many permanent teeth formed/forming. It starts as early as 14 weeks into fetal development.

[deleted]

Very true, there are much better ways to strengthen teeth, calcium, magnesium, vitamin K, vitamin D.

It's for your teeth but they don't have teeth

Lol are you being serious?

That will make a low IQ kid

This explains why breastfed babies end up having higher IQs.

What you described could be confirmation bias, but it could be an interesting study if anyone would fund it.

Hey jerk off, bet you think you're smart knocking Jersey for stupid shit we don't even do. New Jersey has no state law that mandates fluoride and we are one of the least fluroided states in the nation. I wish there was a statewide ban, but only some local communities fluoridate the water.

If you're drinking fluoride tap it ain't from Jersey!

Before any gets upset with /u/IntrinsicThought, "Hey Jerk Off" is the customary greeting of New Jersey dignitaries.

Correct. I've been to New Jersey and can confirm that "Hey Jerk Off" is indeed the state's customary greeting.

This. My town in Jersey bans it, thankfully. And I only buy toothpaste for my kid that is flouride-free. I'm still stupid, though, sadly.

Just saw this yesterday, too:

Israeli Health Minister outlaws fluoridation of all tap water.

Think I'll keep that link handy.

Yeah, /r/water didn't like when I posted that link

It makes you wonder.

But do they still add it to the West Bank's, and to Gaza's water supply I wonder...?

table salt is 50% chlorine. chlorine gas is 100% chlorine. therefore table salt is half as deadly as chlorine gas.

Really?

NaCl and Chlorine are different. One is a compound the other a element.

Chlorine has to gain an electron to become a chloride. Meaning its no longer chlorine, but it can still be processed back into the elemental Chlorine.

ಠ_ಠ

Here's the real million dollar question. Has anyone here removed fluoride from their diet entirely? What difference did you notice?

I grew up with fluoridated water at my parents' house, and the first couple of houses I rented also had municipal water. But then moved to where I am now, with wonderful sweet clean water from a well. No chlorine, no fluorides. My children have grown up with this water.

Back in the 1980s, I worked with a guy who had an inorganic chemistry PhD. His postgrad work was entirely in fluorine compounds. Since getting his degree, he had entirely banished any fluorides from his life. He drank bottled water and brushed with baking soda to avoid fluoridated toothpastes (few alternatives back then). He said that fluorine compounds were entirely anti-life, they disrupt normal biological processes. This was back when anti-fluoride people were few and far between, disparaged in the press and even in movies. (Dr. Strangelove for example.) He was a sharp guy, not paranoid; and since he'd actually studied these compounds as a scientist, I tended to believe him.

I can't say that I've noticed any profound changes, but the changes would be gradual, wouldn't they? Also, I don't have a hypothetical "control me" who continued to ingest fluorides, to use as a comparison.

I like to think I'm healthier for it, but of course I can't offer any proof. Ghod knows I've ingested plenty of other toxins in my lifetime, deliberately or not.

Yeah it would be pretty hard to test reliably especially since the effects would probably be gradual and subtle. I appreciate your insight though ,thanks!

I would love to hear that story even though that has to be pretty challenging unless you are pretty well off. Great comment.

Yeah. Avoiding fluoride is something I would like to try for myself since there is so much conflicting information out there, but it doesn't seem like it's practical to try.

I've always hoped to hear someone's personal story about going fluoride free but it's probably very hard to do. Also, if there are any negative effects of ingesting fluoride who knows if they can be reversed or how long it would take?

sure, and none.

[deleted]

Congratulations. Literally nothing you said has anything to do with Flouride.

[deleted]

The sinus issue might come from the chlorine instead. If you're filtering fluoride, you're filtering the chlorine as well.

Okay, so let's forget, for just a moment, what the fluoride does or why it's in the water.

Is there any way to remove the fluoride from the water? Like, any way a person (with pretty reasonable abilities and intelligence) could perform at home?

Oh absolutely. Distilled water removes 99% of all contaminants and minerals. A few VOC's do stay but its nothing to ever worry about. Reverse osmosis removes a lot but I am not sure about the fluoride. :( But yes sir you sure can make perform this at home with very minute effort, though some of those distillers are expensive. There are some water suppliers that will deliver distilled water with a report on the latest water test. I have no idea WHO does that service though, sorry.

It seems to me there should be some device which you can attach to your home's water main which would filter out all the fluoride. I mean, in a perfect world, and all. (But then, in a perfect world, there might not be fluoride in the water to begin with.)

Is it possible to make such a device? I mean, would such a device REQUIRE the use of electricity or heat? Could you simply put together an advanced enough filter?

anyone have any experience with this?

Um carbon filter is supposed to remove it. Most water filters that I have seen use carbon filter then a regular filter. The fluoride is not removed by 99% of common filters and that includes Brita. Distillation is the only way I am even aware of that for sure removes it. making a carbon filter is pretty darn simple if I remember correctly too. PCB pipe filled with carbon and a small cheesecloth or something. I bet there is a guide online.

One problem you will also have to worry about is catching your water at the main instead of at the tap. Like a whole house system. People seemingly forget that drinking water is not the only factor in absorption of fluoride. Transdermal absorption is very good for nearly all substances. It is something like 90% or more. So yea just because you filter your drinking water would not guarantee your protection because you are also bathing in it. Best advice I can give is take cold Showers so as to not open the pores and keep it short.

Normal Carbon filters do not remove fluoride. Brita is a carbon filter. RO Systems use a membrane that only allows water size molecules through. Other filter material like activated alumina will remove fluoride but there is some danger of the filter material getting into the water.. depends on the system. Bone char carbon may remove fluoride but I don't know enough about it. Straight up Carbon filters do nothing for fluoride removal.

Yea the activated alumina is a bad choice. It has to flow so slowly through it and then you are trading fluoride for aluminum toxicity. Apparently they get clogged very quickly too. Carbon filter as far as I know works and it was the only thing that did outside distillation but I might have to read into that more. Appreciate the information.

[deleted]

Cant tell if serious.

[deleted]

At approximately 100 celcius, the acid decomposes into SiF4 and HF. The former is soluble so remain with the water being distilled. I would love to see a link to the study with 17 percent figure if you have it at hand.

can't*

drinking distilled water is not good for you because it leeches minerals out. you need to mix it with seasalt if youre drinking distilled to remineralize it.

It only leaches Inorganic minerals not minerals you get out of food that are now biological. Also you don't exactly get a ton of minerals in the first place from water. You get more minerals out of your food than you ever could from your water. You would die from tying to ingest enough water to meet your mineral needs.

This is unmitigated ignorance.

Reverse osmosis or a filter with a catalytic element are the most effective.

Berkey Water filters with fluoride and arsenic removal attachment do...I got the big one and love it. Water tastes 10 times better.

Thanks!

I've done a fair amount of research on this subject, and there is an incredibly long list of good arguments against fluoride. However, the argument about the connection between fluoride and nazis seems to be anecdotal, and possibly even made up. This blogpost sums up the misconceptions pretty well.

It's unfortunate that this was your main argument against fluoride. I don't have time to cite all my sources right now, but here are a few good reasons that I can think of against water fluoridation:

• Calcification of the pineal gland. Important for production of melatonin and sleep cycles. It is also the source of the "third eye" for those who are more spiritually inclined. Even Descartes speculated that the pineal gland is the "seat of the soul."
  
• Fluoride is a proven neurotoxin
• The majority of early studies on the effect of fluoride on dental health were studies on adolescents, not adults. There does seem to be some evidence for the positive effects of fluoride on developing teeth, but I have found very little about the efficacy of fluoride preventing cavities in adults.
• Dental fluorosis
• Skeletal fluorosis
• CONSENT

Yea absolutely, you summarized it better than me. I believe the cons out weight the benefits. Because even if that fluoride is actually holding my teeth together that wont make up for any IQ drop. Either way nice summary.

I've always thought the best argument against fluoride is the fact it is mass medicating an entire population. Even if it's good for you, who's to say it's good for other people. And who will be held accountable when a batch Chinese fluoride turns out to be something else and actually injures someone, luckily this time they pulled it quickly.

Edit: By the way, the counter argument I get is they already add other chemicals to the water, which are for sanitary reasons (I agree with sanitizing water), which is than construed as medicating because they are sanitizing the water trying to keep people from getting sick.

You're getting massively downvote brigaded and I have no idea why. Some shills and/or haters are targetting you in this thread. I'm confident there are redditors who are blindly downvoting every single comment you make at this point...

So what, its just my opinion man :) I am not gonna be upset. Shit honestly I care more right now about my elbow hurting then some one vote brigading me. In times of universal deceit telling the truth will be a revolutionary act. Is it truth? Reeallllly hard to say.

um, that "beaconoftruth" website is a terrible source. for starters, one of its links is about "bible prophecy".... yeah, no. you kinda just discredited yourself.

I do not believe in a "god" I also don't know what the you want me to tell you other than... ok.

I lived in NM, no fluoride in the water, my son got lots of cavities. When we move somewhere else, with fluoride treated water, no cavities.

I don't give a damn what anyone says, I put ACT on my teeth and they are stronger for it. You can feel it. It remineralizes your teeth.

I support your belief and your freedom to have that belief. I did take that oath to support the constitution and dammit you have a right to your opinion :)

Crazy, I always had tons of cavities despite all the fluoride treatments and fluoridated drinking water I was exposed to. Eventually, I stopped going to my dentist (who was obviously taking advantage of my insurance by doing excessive work on my teeth that was never discussed with me). Haven't been to the dentist in about a year now, but my teeth look and feel better than ever before. My personal experience is the exact opposite of the story you're telling. I'm not saying you're lying, but I am saying you're naive for thinking you're on the right side of the fence on this issue.

I agree with you that fluoride is good for teeth. That's the thing though - it's just good for teeth. And only in small doses. And only when used topically. You wouldn't swallow toothpaste, would you? You spit it out, right?

Every argument I've heard against fluoride has to do with it being ingested, as opposed to just topical use. I don't see a reason why we can't just say, "yeah, sure, use it on your teeth, but let's stop putting it in the drinking water"?!

Do water filters commonly sold on the market remove the fluoride from tap water ?

no you need reverse osmosis filters

Not true. You can buy water purifiers that have fluoride filters. Big Berkey

No. You can't boil it out either.

You could rig a still if you really wanted to.

That is right boiling just concentrates it.

the cheap ones like Brita, just have charcoal and won't remove too much beyond a bit of chlorine and particulates. A fluoride removing faucet set up will use reverse osmosis, deionizers, or activated alumina and will run you between $100 and $200. Unless you have particularly good water where you are, I'd say it's worth it for the taste benefits alone.

I've said it before, but didn't they say that they don't know if reverse osmosis even gets the fluoride out? I find it interesting.

I worked at a RO plant. If you set the recovery rate to 50% (half RO water and half unused) then you might still get some fluoride. If you have a 10% recovery machine (90% waste) the water will be much more pure. DI water (De-Ionized) is the purest and is too pure. DI water is used to etch glass, you can't drink it straight. I expect the fluoride filters are the most economical and practical choice. No waste, change filters as needed.

Do they have filters specifically for fluoride?

Yes, several. You should shop around, do a Google search. The low cost ones are just as good as the fancy high price ones.

http://www.dancingwithwater.com/articles/how-to-remove-fluoride-from-water/

The bottom choice looks good. It will fit standard housings.

http://www.amazon.com/Individual-Bone-Brimac-Replacement-Filters/dp/B00DYZBOW6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1408505127&sr=8-1&keywords=Bone+Char+Filter+Cartridges

Some water purifiers do. This one has a fluoride filter.

One thing I have often wondered is where all these medications get their fluorine from: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/cr4002879

Note that we are getting more fluorine than we assume due to people pissing/flushing their meds away.

I once read an interesting hypothesis as to why many of the fluorinated medications can cause psychosis reminiscent of PCP when improperly metabolized--something about the fluorine mixed with something else, but I haven't been able to find it since...

Yea what pisses me off is man that fluoride has to mess with the pineal gland. The master hormone gland. Most doctors call the pituitary the master hormone gland but that is not completely true. The pineal gland is the part of your body that effects your sleep wake cycle ...so if you are getting crap quality sleep it could be because of a calcification of you pineal gland inhibiting your homeostasis. More sunlight increases your meletonin formation at night though and apparently the light from the sun can reduce the calcification slowly but surely.

Oh and yes I have a hypothesis about that actually. This again has to do with the pineal gland. I have been around a lot of psychedelics and I know what it is to trip. Thing is almost everyone I know feels that the trip seems to emanate from a central point. Once thing almost every person experiences on a high dose trip ( at least as far as I have heard and experienced my self) is the pressure in the head and it feels as if the center of your head is a projector.

What I am getting at is the pineal is the gateway to the other side in one way or another. I mean look at that guy with the surgery posted here in the sub. He had surgery on his pineal because of a tumor or something and his artwork is just like and mushroom art or peyote art or lsd etc. SO fluoride calcifying your pineal could absolutely cause symptoms or even full blown manifestations of psychosis. A perfect example would be schizophrenics, They have all sorts of symptoms that are very much like a psych trip. Either way there is some correlation there.

Or not.

I'm not advocating for fluoride, I'm opposed to it and fluoride mouthwash programs in the schools. But objectively tea contains a lot flouride. The same cultures that brought you meditation ,reiki and acupuncture also consume a lot of tea.

Yea quite the strange combination for a culture. Who knows though its fluoride from tea is the only source for them? It would take a lot of searching to get a grasp on that. Oh and yea tea is the highest known source in a food?

As a consumer I don't want fluoridated water, but I honestly worry more about the levels of pharmaceuticals in our water supply. I think the reality is that we live in, eat a drink a chemical soup. You just have try to be vigilant and watch what you eat and drink.

Yep its not just the fluoride. The estrogen's are a huge problem. It is not like the men are walking around all yoked and alpha anymore like the 70's. Chemical castration and slow death. Gotta look out for your health, that is for sure.

it's*

estrogens*

Alright man, stop being a grammar nazi. I have seriously been up for 27 hours. I would be willing to bet money that without prior knowledge anyone else up that long would have a few errors especially if they do not sweat them. Either way you are not adding to the conversation in a meaningful way, it is nothing but a distraction. So if you please, stop. Thank you.

Yeah cause guys were definitely all yoked and alpha in the 70s.

http://artmatters.ca/wp/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/DavidBowie_Sukita251.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-8igkZbaxihE/TdiD0Bq-4_I/AAAAAAAABqU/Qnh5fa8XuTE/s1600/1126.jpg

http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lgsenn4bxj1qdslbvo1_500.jpg

http://factmag-images.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/boygeorge-meltdown-8.1.2012.jpg

http://rs305.pbsrc.com/albums/nn235/chriseagle08/scan0050.jpg~320x480

http://images2.fanpop.com/images/quiz/92000/92045_1227184890959_500_356.jpg

http://depeche.cz/images/malins/03-03.jpg

http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/29200000/The-Who-1970s-music-29224636-400-320.jpg

http://assets-s3.rollingstone.com/assets/images/story/aerosmith-the-best-of-the-1970s-20121101/1000x600/20121029-aerosmith-x600-1351529855.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/14/Rolling_Stones_1971.jpg/1024px-Rolling_Stones_1971.jpg

http://cdn.necolebitchie.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/michael-jackson-1970s.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-CuqXs08pM90/Tf5XbbiEKcI/AAAAAAAACIQ/T50vJiAbGyk/s1600/l5bkblf1xaiwlwbx.jpg

rofl I need at least 30 more to form an opinion, thank you. Oh also if you had no idea there is actually verifiable evidence of this phenomena but ill let you show me all these super fly dice kickas :D

Zero cognitive bias here at all haha.

Sorry, I didn't know that yokedness and alphaness were quantifiable measurements. But it's cool that your study takes those into account.

Oh it does, 50 year longitudinal studies always include bro science just to break the ice :) Sorry my vocabulary induced a inability to rationalize linguistic hyperbole.

an* inability

Dude you sound like someone from /r/cringe, just stop.

Who knows though its fluoride from tea is the only source for them?

What is this I don't even.

What I am saying, is there is a lot to consider for that answer. A lot of unknown variables...well unless you are from China or India or whatever culture is referred to. I don't know all the sources they may get fluoride from so .. I would have to speculate. You see what I was saying there?

http://www.dancingwithwater.com/articles/how-to-remove-fluoride-from-water/

Nice rant.

You are completely wrong, but it was a nice rant.

http://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2011/oct/06/critics-water-fluoridation/truth-about-fluoride-doesnt-include-nazi-myth/

This thread has been linked to from elsewhere on reddit.

• [/r/conspiratard] 'Tard decides to "end the indecision about flouride" - rants about how in a Chinese study, they gave rats 10x the recommend dose levels for humans and their DNA was damaged. Also, the Nazis did it to keep prisoners passive, so it must be bad.

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maybe others will take note; when i first post about dangers of fluoride, it wasn't believed

This is my take,

You can't find much legitimate non-positive studies on Fluoride in the States and most other democratic nations.

So you go and get data from one of the most repressive regimes in history, China?

Come on now, Banking on a country having actual factual data when they have proven time and time again that they can not control their own adulterated food supply is just a joke and is reaching for straws.

Take China out of the equation totally and you might have a leg to stand on. Or why don't you go live in China if you so feel that they are better at telling the truth, especially to their own people.

You have a choice.

Seems like you're the one that needs to visit China.

No because I am asking why believe anything out of China?

That gets you Death There.

ugh.. I am not gonna even attempt.

What,

I want to know why when anyone talks fluoride that they only cite information from, I sell everyone Malamine laden milk China?

Tell me why I should believe anything out of China.

I have no problem believing I have problem with sources.

EDIT: Especially ones like these,

http://science.slashdot.org/story/10/04/19/0132246/chinas-research-ambitions-hurt-by-faked-results

EDIT2:

SlashDot was a quick reply

Here is a Direct Reddit post with link to Economist.

http://www.reddit.com/tb/1nd3ly

I understand your distrust of their integrity. I actually have been to china 4 times man. I mean yea lots of unscrupulous research but they actually do have a "fluoride issue there". If ya don't care for it then I am not gonna tell you, that you are wrong or whatever. Its just your opinion man.

Maybe this:

http://www.reddit.com/tb/2dqwwi

is a better article and the better theory hypothesized that it is not the Fluoride but ill refined Fluoride that is the problem. (I know they are putting this in the water so we need to stop it, Same Argument, YES we need to stop the use of Adulterated Fluoride but not the use of Fluoride.)

Fluoride has always been obtained through refining of metals,

WE do know without a doubt that heavy metals can effect, destroy, alter the brain. Irrefutably.

The lab is a different than real life. I would put that the credible labs are not using the same Fluoride that is actually going in the water but Fluoride that is pure therefore they are not getting any problems.

Maybe China is right but if they are using the Fluoride that has Heavy Metals in it then their results are an effect of the Heavy Metals not the Fluoride itself.

I might of wandered but my message is that by all indications Fluoride is safe. What we MOST likely have is a problem with the Fluoride source being contaminated with Heavy Metals. That is why there is a lot of Corollary Data like IQ of populations in Fluoride areas VS Non Fluoride areas. but no reputable lab results and Academic Papers.

It might be right to get rid of the Fluoride in the water supply or change to a better supply of Fluoride. but NOT to stop using it, IE Fluoride Drops or other Pharma Grade solutions.

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Fluoridated vs. Unfluoridated Countries

All that shows is that dental health has improved in general in the first world over the last few decades.

Reverse osmosis is the only way to remove municipal fluoride - well, next to petitioning your local authorities to stop the process.

That is not completely true, you may not know but distillation does work and even better than /r/o for removing fluoride. It is also about 98% -99% effective.

Sorry, distillation is also a means, but the energy used to distil tap water for everyday use is just not practical.

It is costly energy wise to distill but its better than the 9k chemicals in tap water.

A day I celebrated, of course, still with mild suspicion, but I'll take it:

http://www.naturalcuresnotmedicine.com/2014/04/dallas-puts-end-50-years-water-fluoridation-now-save-1-million-year.html

Severe and serious mood and behavior alteration. why do you think almost ever SSRI is based on fluoride?

Back when I was in middle school, (early 2000'ish) I remember us being given little cups fluoride by the school nurse twice a week to swoosh around and spit out. (I remember a couple class clowns who would swallow it nearly every time aswell) It was 6th and 7th grade and it was optional... but of course sheep mentality prevailed, and nobody as far as I can recall opted out.

My concern is I wonder if this is still happening in schools... and if so, should we really be subjecting our future generation to these kinds of chemicals, just for some pretty white chompers? Given the OP's info is indeed true...

The real effects of fluoride ingestion needs to be brought to light... soon... because if it truly is in our public water supply too... well we've got a shit load of work ahead of us.

I don't know if they are doing that now but it would be sketchy depending on if they inform the parents or not. I just think after about 65 years this should be in the past. What I mean is we should have come to a concrete conclusion by now.. I mean I saw some studies are far back as 72? It should be a closed case. Either it is beneficial or not.

Right, there is no middle ground with a debilitating substance such as this. There is no medicinal benefit, and claiming to fight cavity's while dumbing down/harming the average citizen, even possibly at a DNA level no less, is a monstrosity...

Pondering this... I can't help but remember this comedy/sci-fy movie I once saw, with tom cruise called Idiocracy. About a future dumbed down society that revolves around everything and everyone consuming electrolytes.

Idiocracy is happening even without fluoride sadly.

Luckily it is not in the water supply in the part of the UK I live in. I don't use mouth wash though and I switched to natural non fluoride toothpaste a few months ago

Its all about personal choice.

Good stuff

Please listen to this podcast on fluoride

http://www.stuffyoushouldknow.com/podcasts/is-fluoride-making-us-stupid/

Will do.

http://europepmc.org/abstract/med/12411198 I could be wrong, but it appears that this abstract is suggesting that injecting a fairly hefty dose of fluoride into the brain stem of a rat causes cellular damage. That would fall into the "no shit sherlock" category of science.

http://office.wjgnet.com/1007-9327/full/v12/i7/1144.htm Again, 150ppm concentration of fluoride is what you use when you Want to cause damage, that is 100 to 200 times the concentration used for fluoridating drinking water.

http://www.beaconoftruth.com/f5.htm credible sources please

The only problem with this "fluoride tool for mass manipulation" is that the USSR and currently Russia never used fluoride in their water supply (considering all their infamous mass manipulation tactics), despite fluoridation violence is high among these countries (Brazil, Colombia), and lastly in some countries water is naturally fluoridated from its sources.

That is a good point.

Just a heads up: 340comments/+195upvotes

There is a very significant level of vote manipulation suppressing the popularity of this thread.

Well maybe so but I cannot really do anything about that. Thanks for pointing it out though. It is worth noting. Reddits vote system is wacky anyways. To me it looks fine but I am sure you know what you are talking about.

Threads very rarely if ever experience the ratio of comments to votes which this thread currently has.

Redditors are never conservative with their dispensation of up/downvotes, especially with a hot thread in this subreddit. If a thread is controversial enough to be as split as this one "appears to be" in the voting, it will likely reach a tipping point and either hit the 4 digit mark or die within an hour or two.

This thread likely has over 1000 upvotes and at least several hundred illegitimate downvotes being hidden from view.

For real? Lol..well shit.

saved

It's also worth noting that a lot of places don't fluoridate water. I work for a major water treatment company and we don't fluoridate at any of our locations. We serve millions of people water that has no fluoride in it.

There are two types of fluoride to consider: natural and synthetic.

Calcium Fluoride: which naturally occurs in the earth's crust and is in the ground water. From what Ive read it is considered least harmful because its highly insoluble and has calcium in it which is an antidote to fluoride toxicity. But it should be noted that all fluorines are considered toxic to humans.

And then synthetic fluorides which are often the byproducts from industry.

Sodium Fluoride: used in toothpastes, mouthwashes, and even as "nutritional" supplements.

Fluorosilicic acid: This is what is mostly added to fluoridate the water supply. The CDC approximates that 95% of our water is fluoridated with fluorosilicic acid. (http://www.cdc.gov/fluoridation/factsheets/engineering/wfadditives.htm#a1). Fluorosilicic acid aka Hexafluorosilicic acid is corrosive, cities that added it to their water began having problems with their pipes corroding.

What's the best way to avoid fluoride intake?

Everything that has water in it potentially has it. You want to avoid it then just buy distilled water and use cold showers. Only real advice I have.

Hydrofluorosilicic acid.

How can I 100 percent avoid it though?

I am not sure that you could honestly.

Okay

So much truth here. That's why I appreciate having my own ground water welled to my house. No added cost, no added flouride.

<enter shills repeaters and useful idiots - stage left>

The anti-fluoride conspiracy is not grounded in fact, at all. The most compelling argument is that fluoridated countries have shown little to no improvement in dental caries compared with non-fluoridated countries according to WHO and NIH data, even though study after study after study after study indicate that fluoride does have a positive effect on tooth enamel. This discrepancy lies with comparing a general population when fluoride is most effective given to children under 10.

There's also the fact that many of the anti-fluoride studies used Chinese data which is 2.5ppm, or 250% greater than safety guidelines recommend, the fact that most water is naturally fluoridated between .5-4ppm and that most 'fluoridated water' is simply treated to bring this to an optimal level, the fact that the German mind-control theory can't be traced back more than 20 years from any reputable source, the fact that pineal calcification only occurs when consuming a ridiculous amount of fluoride, the fact that the owner of tom's non-fluoridated toothpaste is a huge backer in the anti-flouride movement, etc, etc.

Also in your links regarding DNA damage, like research touted by pretty much every anti-flouride source, the amounts given were WAY past toxicity. 150ppm/L in water would cause ill effects in any living creature and is 149000% greater than the levels proposed in drinking water.

Does water need to be fluoridated? No, not unless you're under 10 and never brush your teeth. Is it safe? Absolutely.

Let me get this straight. Fluoride is safe and there's a ton of disinformation out there to scare us into thinking it isn't safe. Ok, I can accept that, but WHO BENEFITS? The owner of Tom's Toothpaste...and that's it, right? I must be missing something, but it is hard to believe this disinformation was created for absolutely no one's benefit (except that one toothpaste guy). I'm absolutely on the fence about fluoride right now, and I'm eager to learn more so I can sit comfortably on one side or the other.

Who benefits from the anti-vaccination conspiracy? No one, it started when a study or two were misinterpreted (in fluoride's case, when the levels administered were known to be toxic yet that factoid was left out of sensationalist headlines). Fluoride is completely safe at about .7ppm/L to 1.5ppm/L, and virtually every doctor and dentist agrees with that. Fluoride is also VERY toxic in higher concentrations and so people automatically assume that any toxic chemical=bad.

See also: Radiation, alcohol, pure water, etc.

I mean bro I would LOVE to consider that to be true. What a weight off my mind that would be.

I will look at the studies and draw my own conclusion but you are absolutely right about a lot of what you said. Toms of main is definitely just using marketing to sell tooth paste lol

My only question for you is what about the babies born and given water with fluoride? Would that harm their body because of a lack of a BBB (blood brain barrier) Obviously all the other contaminants would cause problems but I am just asking about fluoride.

Also I do not expect an answer to that because I realize its pure speculation. Just a casual answer will do since you provided plenty for me to read through on a more relevant topic.

Repeated doses of infinitesimal amounts of fluoride will in time reduce an individual's power to resist domination by slowly poisoning and narcotisizing a certain area of the brain and will thus make him submissive to the will of those who wish to govern him.

I always hated how people just believe this. Look at a group of people on fluoridated water. Now look at one not on it. Is one more submissive than the other? No? Isn't that weird?

Where is this group and how are you intending for us to look at them?

Do you live on public water or well water?

Here in Santa Cruz, California, our municipal water supply is not fluoridated, and I'm not sure how much you know about good ol' Santa Cruz, but suffice to say, this town does not exactly jive with the rest of America, and certainly cannot be seen as "submissive". (from the Resource Center for Nonviolence to the activist Veterans, to the very liberal nature of the government, police, etc., just a stroll downtown and one can immediately sense this town is fairly unique.) "Keep Santa Cruz Weird" is an unofficial motto. Santa Cruz was rather alone back in 2003 when they officially condemned the Iraq invasion and requested impeachment of dubya, and distributed medical cannabis from city hall to beloved resident Robert Anton Wilson, back in 2002. There are countless examples of Santa Cruz being officially non-submissive. It would be interesting to compare/contrast other municipalities which don't fluoridate - what other cities don't?

Does it all stem from non-fluoridated water? Who can say, but one can definitely infer Santa Cruz is one of few rather non-"submissive" cities in America.

Austin Texas also has the slogan asking to "keep it weird" and they do have flouridated water. I would guess that Santa Cruz being located near San Francisco has more to do with the people than non-flouridated water. After all, Berkeley also has flouridated water and they had more than their fair share of protests.

When Austin city officials distribute free weed on city hall grounds, we can compare the "weird"-ness of our towns ;)

I'm in Salinas and pay to have Santa Cruz water delivered. :) Worth it!

You're my favorite kind of customer.

Thanks for a response! So now we've got you an Austin reporting in!

Excellent scientific study you just conducted. Case closed, guys!

It wasn't scientific. You ok?

I'm doing wonderful. I don't care how you're doing, so I won't ask.

k

Appealing to improper authority is a fallacy, not appealing to authority in general.

That's a really bad retort.

Some people don't have access to other sources of water due to poverty, illness, etc.

The fact is they make a tremendous effort to clean the water up and they just poison it afterwards with fluoride. They do it with OUR tax dollars.

Before any gets upset with /u/IntrinsicThought, "Hey Jerk Off" is the customary greeting of New Jersey dignitaries.

Spring water isn't free and if you're taking it from an actual spring that's illegal as that is the states water. But that's besides the point since I already pay for my city water I should be able to choose whether or not it is medicated as I have good dental hygeine and don't need extra flouride.

when you shower the water gets in your pores there is no escaping it

Your skin still absorbs the fluoride when you shower.

So, yeah, you're still getting it whether you swallow it or not.

That's because you seem to have missed it completely. Like he said, the real issue is the principle involved - the fact that this mass medication is done without the consent of those subject to it.

This. My town in Jersey bans it, thankfully. And I only buy toothpaste for my kid that is flouride-free. I'm still stupid, though, sadly.

It's not just drinking it. There are studies out showing that fluoride can go right through your skin, so if you shower, bathe, swim, or anything with it, you are still getting those infinitesimal doses. Against your will. That lead to Alzheimer's disease, an average of 7 less IQ points in children, and other neurological disorders, (as well as broken hips in the elderly through fluorosis of the bones).

I am very strong in many subjects but yea I am piss poor at math. Sorry we are all not mathmaticians.

that is why they invented TDS meters

Like I said though. If it's that important for someone, they'll pay 15-20 a month for the filtration system.

If that cost is prohibitive, then I don't think it's actually very important to them.

No because I am asking why believe anything out of China?

That gets you Death There.

What I am saying, is there is a lot to consider for that answer. A lot of unknown variables...well unless you are from China or India or whatever culture is referred to. I don't know all the sources they may get fluoride from so .. I would have to speculate. You see what I was saying there?

Everything that has water in it potentially has it. You want to avoid it then just buy distilled water and use cold showers. Only real advice I have.

Very true, there are much better ways to strengthen teeth, calcium, magnesium, vitamin K, vitamin D.