Need info on Sovereign Citizens

8  2014-10-15 by grad_student_of_doom

Hello,

I am a graduate student in Colorado. For one of my classes, I am writing a paper analyzing the factors behind the growth of the Sovereign Citizen movement, as well as the law enforcement policies regarding the movement. This paper is for my professor only, but it is a topic I am interested in.

I know what the FBI says about SCs, but I would really like some first-hand information and opinions from people associated with the movement or at least very familiar with it. My goal is not to judge or condemn, but rather have an honest discourse and see the other side of the story.

If you have any information, theories, or links you'd like to share, I'd really appreciate it. I am happy to answer any questions about my purposes here as well. Thanks for reading.

40 comments

3  PresidentRoguebomber 2014-10-15

I think you'll find more antipathy toward the sovereigns here than you will sympathy.

2  33degree 2014-10-15

Why would you say that?

1  PresidentRoguebomber 2014-10-15

Experience.

1  grad_student_of_doom 2014-10-15

That's okay. I'm just looking for any kind of information.

0  PresidentRoguebomber 2014-10-15

I see, have you tried google or bing?

1  grad_student_of_doom 2014-10-15

Yes, thank you for your suggestion. When researching, I like to use as many methods as possible to gather information, which includes first-hand accounts and discussions/interviews with people more knowledgeable than I.

0  PresidentRoguebomber 2014-10-15

Sorry to be an asshole. Good luck.

1  grad_student_of_doom 2014-10-15

No worries. Thanks!

2  Fleshpeeler 2014-10-15

Sovereign Citizens Movement. It's from the Southern Poverty Law Center. Hope this helps.

2  grad_student_of_doom 2014-10-15

Thanks, I'll read up!

1  a9sdd8nas90 2014-10-15

Thanks, wasn't sure what it was, i'm definitely one of them i guess haha, texts agreed upon (so contracts) by others in different times certainly don't apply to me (through any other means than force)... My anarchist grand-dad use to say: "you have the right to do absolutely everything declared illegal, as long as you don't get caught". Works great!

1  grad_student_of_doom 2014-10-15

Hey, can you expand a little on this? Like, how you apply your beliefs to your actions?

2  a9sdd8nas90 2014-10-15

Nothing in particular, you need financial independence to be able to expand your freedoms to levels where you can start using it for others (which differentiates me from this movement i guess), still a long work in progress over here (you could say working on this is how i apply my beliefs i guess).

1  grad_student_of_doom 2014-10-15

Do you have friends or family who ascribe to the same views? How did you get introduced to SC?

2  a9sdd8nas90 2014-10-15

not that i know of, they all have long lost the ability to think for themselves, not sure why i remained a kid among them, maybe i was the only one listening to grand dad hahaha... otherwise i learned about it in this thread, i'm part of no "institutional" movement.

edit: to be more complete, i relate to their approach to law, but that's it :)

1  grad_student_of_doom 2014-10-15

Thanks for your responses! I really do appreciate it.

1  Fleshpeeler 2014-10-15

"you have the right to do absolutely everything declared illegal, as long as you don't get caught"

Words to live by. And it's true.

0  JamesColesPardon 2014-10-15

This is a shitty summary with racist overtones that does not encapsulate the spirit of the movement, and paints those that are interested as greedy tax dodgers and traitors.

2  33degree 2014-10-15

Criminal Justice major.

1  grad_student_of_doom 2014-10-15

International Relations, actually. This is for a US security policy class.

2  JamesColesPardon 2014-10-15

Why post this here?

1  grad_student_of_doom 2014-10-15

When I did a reddit search, the majority of results seemed to come from this sub. I figured it was a good starting point. Do you have any suggestions for other places I should look for information?

2  JamesColesPardon 2014-10-15

Just like it to know for some context, we do get an exceptional amount of trolls asking questions like this (project for school) and sometimes it's students who appear to have legitimate motives, and others are here to call us tinfoilz.

The Southern Poverty Law Center link is semi-accurate, but is terribly racist and doesn't apply to most sovereigns that I've come across (I'm not a card carrying member but have done a solid amount of research and am leaning towards them having at least an argument with some factual basis).

It's an OK introduction, as long as you know they have a particular agenda they are trying to propagate (much like I have a particular agenda I am trying to propagate).

1  grad_student_of_doom 2014-10-15

I totally get it, which is why I'm happy to answer any questions about my purposes here and what I'm writing.

In terms of non-biased resources or resources written by sovereign citizens, do you have any recommendations for what I should read?

2  [deleted] 2014-10-15

[deleted]

1  grad_student_of_doom 2014-10-15

I think your best bet is to capture why the movement (I hesitate to call it that, but you used it to it stays) is at least slightly attractive.

Yes, that is what I am going for (and what word would be better to use?). I became interested in this topic when I saw START's report this year that law enforcement now ranks SC above domestic terrorism in terms of threat. This kind of boggled my mind, but it got me thinking about the growth of SC and why it's beginning to appeal to more people. I do suspect that the militarization of the police may be a factor.

I am also unsure of the length of my paper (it's pretty open-ended), and I am definitely still in the research stage. A lot of my research has gotten me bogged down in lawsuits and litigation (and forums that tend to dismiss and laugh at SC), which hasn't been helpful. I am eventually going to get into the academic articles and law enforcement side, but I want to first understand SC and have a good grasp of the ideology. I have a general idea of their belief in the illegitimacy of the government, but not much background on where that belief comes from.

2  [deleted] 2014-10-15

[deleted]

1  grad_student_of_doom 2014-10-15

My general idea is that by some mechanism, the US government has become illegitimate, which means that their laws are inapplicable and people working for the government are not public servants, but private employees or contractors with no legal standing. Citizens therefore do not owe taxes and are not subject to laws. I read some about contracts, if that makes any sense.

If you have any resources, ideas, suggestions, etc, lay them on me please! This topic is really interesting to me and I don't want my paper to turn into some generic policy piece.

1  JamesColesPardon 2014-10-15

When I did a reddit search, the majority of results seemed to come from this sub.

What were your search terms?

I searched 'soverign' and came up with 3 items for this sub, and zero for 'sovereign citizen.'

1  grad_student_of_doom 2014-10-15

Here is my initial search. As you can see, the first several links are unhelpful. The first helpful link came from this sub, so I narrowed the search. That's why I thought this sub would be the best place.

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2  JamesColesPardon 2014-10-15

jtrig?

1  grad_student_of_doom 2014-10-15

I actually had to google that. No, just a grad student. I've got no way to prove that though.

1  JamesColesPardon 2014-10-15

k

1  grad_student_of_doom 2014-10-15

Will you still share some resources with me if you have them? I get it if you don't want to, but it would be really helpful. No worries one way or the other.

1  LetsHackReality 2014-10-15

We know, now, that the US government was quietly overthrown in a coup that began with JFK's assassination, and a policy coup that resulted from 9/11, an attack on its own people. The federal government is clearly illegitimate, and is using tax dollars to fund illegal wars on sovereign nations, killing hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of innocent civilians.

It is therefore both illogical to recognize the US government's laws and immoral to pay taxes. The US has no government. We are all sovereign, without a proper government, held captive by a criminal organization.

1  grad_student_of_doom 2014-10-15

Thanks a lot for this, I find it really interesting. Can you direct me to some of the websites you read? Anything else I should read to get more information on this?

Do you think that more people are starting to share this view? And where do you see it going?

2  LetsHackReality 2014-10-15

Western corporate news (CNN, MSNBC, BBC, Fox, etc.) is propaganda. You can see it, in particular, from their reporting on Ukraine, where they can't even keep their own story straight. 9/11 should have tipped me off, but I'm slow.

There are lots of good sources in this very subreddit -- one of the few on Reddit not to have been utterly corrupted. Besides this sub, I like:

I left the country and now live in Costa Rica. Most ex-pats down here, like 90% that I've met, share this view. And we're just scratching the surface.

Where it's going? Either the Dragon Party will bail us out with gold-backed currency or there will be a complete economic collapse that will take the US and associated countries back to the dark ages. The police state, the FEMA camps, and the guillotines for the poor and the dissenters are already in place. Fascism, martial law, mass starvation.

1  grad_student_of_doom 2014-10-15

Some people who claim to be associated with SC have violent interactions with law enforcement. Is that within SC doctrine? Is violent conflict inevitable, or necessary? I'm not assuming you ascribe to these beliefs, I just want to know what you think of it.

2  LetsHackReality 2014-10-15

I can't say. I don't know that I consider myself a "Sovereign Citizen", per se -- just that the US govt is utterly corrupt and illegitimate, so what's left?

I can imagine SCs would take exception to a heavily armed person wearing a magic uniform bullying them and threatening them, using fake authority as their justification -- as well they should. I mean, if some stranger started pushing you and your loved ones around the way "police" do, would you be okay with it?

2  grad_student_of_doom 2014-10-15

Oh, definitely not, especially if I believed they had no legitimate authority over me. Thanks for answering my questions, I really appreciate it.

1  grad_student_of_doom 2014-10-15

When I did a reddit search, the majority of results seemed to come from this sub. I figured it was a good starting point. Do you have any suggestions for other places I should look for information?