Nice rant. I share your sentiments. I used to self.post all the time here. Not so much anymore...

Miss you STK.

Haha Ill be getting back into things soon, i just needed a little break, you know?

Exactly right. I have gone through so many usernames because I always end up getting very fed-up and then impulsively deleting my account.

Then after a little break, I come crawling back, wanting to be a part of the solutions and thinking for hundredth time that this website/subreddit will get better with some effort.

Aint that the truth.

Dont give up

If only we could make our own club with blackjack and hookers.

Yeah man I do. I'm due for one myself. Probably sooner than later.

Its beneficial, imo. Helps clear the mind so that upon returning, it becomes easier to focus. I found myself thinking about twenty topics at once, and i wasnt able to really address any particular one due to the mind-fog. So, i slipped away for awhile, observed the "real world", and eventually i will be back in full force again because there is so much shit.

Btw, i am now working for my local government. As part of the management heirarchy (albeit close to the bottom ranks), i have become privy to some corruption. Its low level corrruption, but its blatant.

Because of this, i dont think id be able to stay away from r/conspiracy for too long -- even if i tried.

Look forward to hearing more about it.

Managed to rile up things at work in regards to paperwork.

Working at a school reveals lots of local corruption. Cant wait how our new board will fare.

Is this an alternate account of /u/strokethekitty?

Yes.

Reddit readers arent wha they used be. Most of the best posters have been banned.

Lots of readers are nobs.

But its still the best place i have found to get the real background story on most international events.

I do wish there was filter to filter all meme comments or all comments less than two sentences.

i really hate that reddit is now prefiltering all comments below a certain threshold even if you didnt ask for it. In fact it still seems to do it even if you set your preferences to show ALL comments.

Often the most downvoted are the real gems ow that corporate pr people downvote any truthiness.

What's worse if you look in world es and sort by best.... joke threads with 20 top level votes somehow go before the discussion with 100 plus a lot of the time.

Its very hard to interpret reddit's rating systems as anything but an attempt to minimize the transmission and exchange of any real information.

I am not joking.

I used to ask over and over that reddit provide a way to sort stories by the amount of downvotes for example. Its just as easy to do as by the summation of up and down votes (actualy easier becuase it is one less sub traction) this would have allowed us to view the most suppressed answers. This was never done and people always would say "you can look at most controversial" -which is a mix of the ones most matching up and down votes - which isnt the same thing at all.

I finally concluded reddits owners didnt WANT us to see which stories were being downvoted. There really was no other answer.Then of course reddit even eliminated showing total numbers of up and down votes on stories which clearly gave us less info and took them MORE programming time. So that made it absolutely clear reddit was trying to keep information from people and going to great new programming lengths to do it.

Reddit is really someplace where they let the least harmful truths show up while hiding the most harmful truths, all while making readers think they are seeing everything, so it seems that nothing really bad is going on in the world.

I tend to agree.

http://np.reddit.com/r/limitedhangouts #LimitedHangouts

"And mods, what are we going to do about it?"

It wouldn't hurt if a mod could address this. It seems to be a burning question around here.

Even something that starts with, "We allow memes to remain above the fold because ..."

Or, "We allow the same user to flood-out the sub with nine posts within an hour time frame because ...."

I see plenty of times where some mod will ban or delete something that's actually pretty innocuous in the grand scheme. Sort of like the cops who billy-club meaningless bums over nothing, but then turn a blind eye to the real shit fucking stuff up.

We try not to remove anything once it reaches the top of the page, even memes. It leads to cries of censorship. Also content control is a slippery slope.

I don't like seeing memes at the top of the page either, they never provide any new content and usually tend to lend themselves to circlejerking.

The key is to get to memes before they fly up the page and accumulate hundreds of upvotes in a matter of an hour or two.

If I see a good self post, I'll always suggest stickying it to other mods. Our sidebar picture right now links to a great self post by a user about trolls.

If you submit a really good self post that you put a lot of time into and is of good quality, message the mods about it so it doesn't fall by the wayside. We'll always consider stickying a good self post.

It leads to cries of censorship.

You see, this is the problem. You cannot run a subreddit expecting to make everybody happy all the time.

Crying censorship is a classic tactic. Plenty of people use this tactic with ill intentions.

If "no memes" is a rule than the rule needs to be enforced. Or take it off of the rule list.

If "no memes" is a rule than the rule needs to be enforced. Or take it off of the rule list.

This is how i have always felt. Its either/or. Not both. If we dont remove memes, then we are de facto allowing memes, i.e. breaking our own rules.

Well we do pride ourselves here on being one of the last places on Reddit where things don't get censored and almost anything is allowed to get posted and gets a fair chance of getting upvoted.

What I can do, as ineffective as it may seem on its face is propose moving no memes up the rule list a few slots, thereby stressing its importance. Right now its the 8th rule of /r/conspiracy but I don't see why it can't be higher up.

If no memes is already a rule why aren't you enforcing it? Shouldn't matter where the rule is listed.

Ya, that is an inane solution to a very, very simple problem.

Well we do pride ourselves here on being one of the last places on Reddit where things don't get censored and almost anything is allowed to get posted and gets a fair chance of getting upvoted.

Then you need to explicitly put that at the top of the rules bar: Rules are subject to flexibility based on community upvotes.

You are dealing with a sub of 1/4 million. People get dumber and dumber the bigger the group gets, you need to spell out these things very clearly. Boundaries need to be set and enforced and any flexibility needs to be spelled out as well. Just my 2 cents.

Rules are subject to flexibility based on community upvotes.

Why even bother with rules at that point?

I totally agree, but at least spelling out their rationale for bending the rules is better than leaving it unspoken.

Eh, it's just as good as not having the rule though. It's not like people routinely post shit thinking "no one wants to see this".

They must have found one of the "good" memes!

We try not to remove anything once it reaches the top of the page, even memes. It leads to cries of censorship.

No. No. No.

If, just for example, r/TIL can enforce its "no politics" rule arbitrarily (i.e. allowing posts about how evil the enemies of freedom are when they torture innocents, while deleting posts about how torturing the enemies of freedom protects innocents), which is not censorship at all (at least according to the great consensus in r/conspiracy threads about this very phenomenon), so can r/conspiracy consistently enforce its "no memes" rule, because that's frigging what frigging r/conspiracymemes is there for in the frigging first place - it even says so in the rule.

Once word has gotten around you don't have to bother posting your latest "What if I told you" meme to r/conspiracy because it will be deleted even after 666.666 upvotes, memes will vanish all by themselves and get posted to r/conspiracymemes to be dissected for the quantum of truth they may be composed of.

I'm all for anarchy and freedom and heterogenity of opinions and stuff. I'll prefer a good reason contradicting my conviction over a bad reason backing my opinion any time. But anarchy is the absence of rulers, not the absence of rules. Since the very architecture of reddit is, as all internet platforms by virtue of their programming, based on benevolent dictatorship, we obviously can't have anarchy, and in such a social ecosphere the wisdom of the dicta moderators decides whether a sub will flourish or decay.

"The key is to get to memes before they fly up the page and accumulate hundreds of upvotes in a matter of an hour or two."

I'm amazed that thousands of upvotes are garnered from just within this sub. Sometimes I think there might be hidden cross-links aiding the surge of the golden memes and other police-brutality and occupy type posts that arguably belong somewhere else altogether. I mean, are there actually 3200 users visiting this sub and upvoting those memes, while other links that are very good legit topics struggle with maybe 4 upvotes all day? Just seems so painfully lopsided. As if there's a large user-base of (legit) fly-overs that ping the low fruit with upvotes because, "Yeeah, maaaan, that's sooooo true... have an upvote bro", without really analyzing the merits of the conspiracy. Seems anybody will thumbs-up "fight-the-power" memes if they're high enough. At any rate, cheers.

This is a subject I tend to wonder about as well. Where are all of these people and how many vote genuinely? How many regulars are there here and what percentage of regular commentors here are part of the voters? It's probably very small.

Reddit is interesting with how it works with the front page. Anybody subscribed to /r/conspiracy still is only going to see a couple top posts from the subreddit when viewing the front page. This is why it's an issue that all of these low quality memes take up top spots.

Even worse is that a lot of content, even if you go directly to the subreddit, is still hidden from "hot", and can only be found on /r/conspiracy/new.

I am curious about average joe who sees a conspiracy meme, nods, chuckles, whatever, upvotes and then moves on. Because I feel that those people are the majority of people who upvote meme posts here.

We try not to remove anything once it reaches the top of the page, even memes. It leads to cries of censorship.

As an opinion and not an attack, I find this a poor excuse, especially with a sub like /r/conspiro around. Do you think the sub would benefit from a sticky of "daily/weekly removed threads" that link to /r/conspiro?

Also, and not for the first time, I strongly recommend disabling image posts. The images can stil be shared in the body of the self.post. This raises the bar ever so slightly for contributions while reducing the easy karma incentive memes provide.

Also content control is a slippery slope.

And not enforcing the rules isn't?

I don't understand how there can be a meme problem. Memes literally violate Rule 8. Providing a link in the sidebar that elaborated on what is a meme and is not a meme might help. Restricting image posts to r/conspiracymemes might help too, but that deserves its own larger discussion.

This place feels less and less like a conspiracy forum.

It's become something along the lines of "prove it or shut up about it."

And a whole lot of Snowden circle-jerking.

I don't really post much, but I read a lot. And yeah, I've notice this too. It is exactly like this.

Since the words "conspiracy theorists" have been made a joke from the mainstream media, it is even harder to be able to discuss about those in a serious way without being mocked by every brain dead people that can't think for themselves.

Enable self-post only viewing as an option (if possible). It'll allow the users here to interact with each other much easier, and you'll get more comments and discussion that you're looking for if we don't have to hunt through all the bullshit to find your posts.

That's my solution anyway. Not sure how it could be implemented (or even if it could).

I agree with your rant as well. I still self-post here, but am getting to the point where the effort required to put out a post I am comfortable attaching my name too, as well as stewarding it for about 24 hours as far as comments go - it doesn't seem worth it sometimes. Which means they are winning, I guess.

It is very tiring arguing your way through a day after a serious post. This is why I am not fully dedicated to research and posting... so in short yes the op is working.

Yep.

I like this idea. I would love for there to be a way to view only the self posts. The self posts are pretty much the only reason I still come here.

I agree. Sometimes I'm in a weird mood and will indulge in some of the video content here, sometimes just for entertainment (because they're really silly).

Then it is settled. We shall enact the Self Post Plan, and it shall be called Jim Mode™.

Jim Mode™

The motion is seconded.

All opposed?

Use the search function to find self.conspiracy from this week.

Not a bad idea.

http://np.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/search?q=self&sort=new&restrict_sr=on

http://np.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/search?q=self&sort=top&restrict_sr=on&t=day

http://np.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/search?q=self&sort=top&restrict_sr=on&t=week

http://np.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/search?q=self&sort=top&restrict_sr=on&t=month

http://friendfeed.com/search?q=self.conspiracy

There is a deliberate intention to harass, wear down, and otherwise completely discourage anyone with a dissenting opinion.

I don't know any more dark corners on the internet you can retreat to where you won't get viciously harassed for stepping outside of the mainstream narrative. And just like many of the other posters here, I've lost my will to argue for the truth against those getting paid to argue and in defense of those who prefer an entertaining and comforting lie to the painful truth.

Don't forget about the trolls who purposely stir up shit who discourage self posts as well.

Some simple fixes, from things I've seen elsewhere on reddit.

• no voting unless subscribed

• no commenting unless subscribed (some subs require subscription for a length of time also, but that's super annoying TBH)

• remove off-topic posts (like /r/history does)

I agree with the first two points, but the second is in that category that seems to be fairly touchy here. It can be seen as a form of censorship. I think a better third point would be to remove memes and stuff due to their formats rather than their content.

Why is everyone against memes here? If they open a door to a conversation, that's good right? I think of a meme as a way to pique curiosity and move into conversation.

I want rules 5, 9, and 10 strictly enforced. Get off your assess mods.

"Why is everyone against memes here? If they open a door to a conversation"

Memes are like poems from a 100-thousand foot view. Very rarely can anything come from, say, a comedian meme that states: "What kind of country allows kids that can't even drink yet the ability to join the military?"

It's just loaded bullshit that shoots to number one with 2700 upvotes. The comment sections are usually piss-water with nothing worth talking about. It's something you will notice over time, especially if you are thirsty for real content that addresses actual conspiracy. The pontificated observances in meme form belong somewhere else. I would gladly trade each and every meme for a self-post any time.

If memes open the door to good analytical and civil discussion, i suppose that would be a good thing. But thats just about all the good a meme can offer.

My main problem with memes are that they are incredibly low-invest posts. Most people who post them dont even personally create them. They just copy and paste. Its similar to those click-bait websites. And its so easy and fast to do, that some folks do it all the time to garner alot of karma (as if it really matters).

To be fair, i take a similar stance on link.posts. But, link.posts have a greater potential, imo, to induce constructive discourse than a simple meme, due to the fact that many links are to news articles that relay relevant information for some conspiracy theorists, whilst memes are typically only used to invoke humor.

no commenting unless subscribed (some subs require subscription for a length of time also, but that's super annoying TBH)

that would stop people 'whistleblowering' or posting dangerous material. or just stuff that is annoying to some.

The voting (and comment) hiding would only possible with CSS, which is easily avoidable.

Can you list a sub that does that?

/r/theredpill is one - you can't vote or comment unless you're subscribed, and you can't submit anything until you have a certain amount of karma within the sub (not appropriate here, I think).

For good reason, too. Daaaaamn.

Well said. I don't post here for many of the reasons you mentioned. I'm seeing more of that on reddit generally, but I see it's worse here just from scanning the comments.

This is one of the better posts I've seen on here as I think a lot of the stuff that happens here is very much people talking around the issue instead of talking through the issue. That said I don't think it'd be fair to say that these people are being deliberately distracting.

Some people use any opportunity at all to bark nonsense about jews or whatever particular brand of baseless or exaggerated horse shit is of the greatest interest to them. When your subreddit is based off of having strong reactionary opinions toward current events sometimes the emphasis is unduly on the strong and reactionary part.

Some people all across reddit are merely looking for an opportunity to say their catch phrase or fire off the argument they go through life just begging to have instead of actually reading and responding to what's been posted. This is not something specific to r/conspiracy but it is a problem magnified many times on the internet.

Some people are just looking for their two minutes hate when they come here.

Long time lurker, I am sorry that this is happening, I like this sub. Some people are real assholes about things and it is frustrating, I think most people can't appreciate that we just want to discuss our various ideas and opinions in a free thinking and open forum.

Yeah when I made a post about faking the moon landing, I ended up finding some descent sources with a lot of info, and was a little excited to talk about it here (so much to talk about!), but it was immediately attacked.

I got vote brigades, called names, outright ostracized for posting it. As if they were sure that's what I believed in. I even stated clearly at the top that everything there was just an observation, and was just interested in the topic. Although apparently the people who attack you either don't read the post, or pick out pieces that further their argument.

Just FYI to all you trolls out their; domestic or commercial, you are never, EVER, going to change my mind about something I believe in. If I thought the moon landing was fake and the earth flat, then I'm going to believe that. There are no words you can truly say to hurt my feelings.. so I honestly don't understand why you go on everyone's nice, PRODUCTIVE posts, and start shitting hate like a couple of fucking 12 year olds playing Call of Duty.

Grow up and act like adults you filthy schmucks.

I love the moon landing, it's excellent that there's no verifiable evidence of our trip and I love taking a Socratic sledgehammer to people's preconceived notions about it.

I'd also inform you that shills aren't typing to change your mind, just the Lurkers.

I'm just glad I learned about the Van Hilden (or whatever it is) belt. That's interesting to debate with people because all they can say is "Spaceships and suits protect you duh", but apparently you'd need a 5inch thick sealed lead casing to survive out there.

Have you read anything about the moon being a hologram? Moon waves and shit? It's really interesting stuff.

No real interest in speculation about the moon being a hologram. Really doesn't lead to any interesting or meaningful discussion.

I don't even have a really vested interest in the moon landing being faked, but the conversations are quite fun and can be eye-opening for the other party, even if it just speaks to how easily they are convinced (either by the government, or me).

Gun to my head though I don't really think we went. People seem to fail to see just how difficult it is to get a tiny ass probe to the moon, add in two people, facilities, food, oxygen, climate control, radiation protection...

I will admit, the videos are strange. But this would entail that the hologram has been around before the technology for such a thing could have even existed. Thus, it would have to have been created by intelligent, non-human beings that have a very high interest in the human race, and who have been around over 34,000 years, as the first recordings of the Moon have been dated at around 32,000 BC.

As an occultist, I'm an astrologer, and thus an amateur astronomer. Something I have always found very intriguing is the fact that, from the viewpoint of a human on Earth, the Sun and Moon are the exact same size. I've known that this Earth and this reality are designed. Not just in relation to our solar system, but to everything, even the fixation of the stars. It's all there to give secrets to man in order to help him renounce illusive realities, and to lead him into godhood.

As to who or what laid the blueprints out is something I have yet to figure out. The ancient alien concept would answer such a question, but there would be no point in speculation. They would not have planted something here and there. Literally everything about this world, and the nature of its absolute connectivity, would need to be accounted for in the AA theory. As such, they are well beyond our comprehension, possibly even beyond our reality, and can hardly be discussed in their full scope.

Something I have always found very intriguing is the fact that, from the viewpoint of a human on Earth, the Sun and Moon are the exact same size.

This is a coincidence that stuck with me. In high school I did an informative speech and I chose the topic of the moon. Not sure why, honestly, but at the time it was a topic I found interesting. Heck, it effects the Earth (tides).

The fact that the moon, right now in time, is far away enough from the Earth to create a perfect eclipse, stuck with me. It was interesting enough I made a point of it in my speech. The moon moves 3.78cm away each year yet we're at the perfect time for a perfect eclipse.

Or is it perfect? Maybe it all happens to be coincidence and it's not a perfect eclipse right now but "perfect" to our eyes. And maybe it just so happens that we really are the product of coincidence with this scenario.

I have no idea but the moon sure is interesting especially with the conspiracy theories surrounding it.

What's your retort about having left a flag or mirrors to bounce lasers off of?

Just curious. I'm up in the air about the moon landing and am currently of the opinion that the US did make it to the moon but still filmed a fake landing for the aesthetic appeal.

I'd love more some information that could help me better understand.

There are retro-reflectors on the Moon but their presence doesn't prove that humans put them there, because the unmanned Russian Lunokhod Missions (1 and 2) also deposited laser retro-reflectors on the lunar surface and they are still functioning.

because the unmanned Russian Lunokhod Missions (1 and 2) also deposited laser retro-reflectors on the lunar surface and they are still functioning.

This was the tidbit that I did not know and if it's true then, thank you. I have some reading to do now.

No worries. The pro-NASA cheerleaders constantly bring up "the mirrors" because they know most people are unaware (and cannot retort that) the Russians also left mirrors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunokhod_programme

Do you have any explanations for some of the larger rock samples like the Genesis rock or Big Muley?

Just as the Russians sent numerous unmanned missions to the moon, it seems plausible that NASA also sent covert unmanned/robotic lunar missions (which remained undisclosed because the public would have been confused as to why NASA was sending robots when sending humans was "so easy").

However, if you don't like that idea, lunar rocks are also found on earth in the form of meteorites. The heaviest one discovered thus far weighs over 14kg.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_meteorite

Interesting, but there has been numerous third party confirmations that the rocks that were brought back from the moon lack the fusion crust of the moon meteorites found on the Earth's surface. In addition, the unmanned and robotic missions were incapable of collecting samples as large as Big Muley and the Genesis rock. Furthermore, the total mass of moon meteorites found on Earth is actually less than the amount supposedly collected by the Apollo missions. In addition he Luna missions collected a total of approximately 0.32kg of rocks which is far less than any amount collected during the Apollo missions.

Do you happen to have any scientific sources that contradict these claims? Specifically the numerous third party verifications of the lack of fusion crust on the rocks collected during the Apollo missions which would confirm that they are rocks collected directly from the moon and not meteorites?

There are a number of possible responses to the "fusion crust" argument, and they are based on distrust of the official story. If NASA lies (which it does) nothing it says can be accepted at face value.

So, it could be that the NASA moonrock samples:

• are not genuine moonrocks, and the sample results were made up

or they

• are genuine, but were collected by NASA on the (entirely unmanned) Apollo missions by robots, just like the Soviet Luna mission rovers, only they collected larger samples

or they

• are lunar meteorites with the fusion crust deliberately removed prior to analysis. The genuine scientists who analysed these samples wouldn't have been aware that the lunar samples they were analysing were actually meteorites.

Take your pick (or not), I guess!

Ok thanks, I was under the impression there was some evidence of this being the case, yet it unfortunately seems to be simply conjecture.

I don't find it very compelling to think that rovers from 60 years ago were capable of collecting larger (in Big Muley's case, 11.7kg) samples than rovers today and returning to Earth with them. Also, Big Muley was pointed out during the mission as something that should be collected (recordings of this are available) for analysis.

I also don't think it's very likely that every third party analysis of the moonrocks done by numerous international institutions were faked or mistaken, especially as they were also compared to the samples from the Luna missions. This kind of repeated error seems highly improbable, scientists aren't that dim.

In addition, as I stated earlier, the samples collected by the Apollo missions actually outweigh all of the currently accounted for moon meteorites, which would mean that NASA somehow managed to find more moon meteorites prior to the Apollo launches than have been found by the entire population of the planet since then, which would be quite odd considering how lucrative they turn out to be.

Could you direct me to some evidence which demonstrates the kind of rover available during the Apollo missions that would be capable of retrieving a rock the size of Big Muley?

The largest lunar meteorite (at over 14kg) outweighs Big Mulley. True or False? Shave 10% off (aka "the crust") and it's still bigger. True or False?

Your other points are all reliant on "official data" being reliable - something many people contest. Some 66kg of lunar meteorites have been officially recorded, but since I have posited that some of the Apollo lunar samples are actually lunar meteorites (which would not have been recorded in the official data for obvious reasons) how useful is it to cite those official figures?

Your request for official "evidence" that would falsify the Apollo moon landings is not logically sound. NASA controls the evidence of the Apollo moon landings, and they are not going to release any evidence that disproves their official narrative, are they? Therefore the absence of any contradictory evidence is neither surprising nor meaningful.

I accept that as a "true believer" in NASA you will find my response exasperating, but you need to accept that your understanding and "knowledge" of human space travel is entirely reliant on what NASA has told you. If you entertain, for one millisecond, the notion that NASA may not be a reliable recorder of its own exploits, you will understand why so many people who have objectively assessed NASA's Apollo narrative, do not find it to be credible.

Interesting points, but many of them have been outright disproven by a number of third party geologists and scientists. To say that the knowledge of space travel is completely reliant on NASA is an insult to the thousands of contributors around the globe who have confirmed the Apollo missions and also contributed to humanity's journeys in space.

But rather than appealing to basic logic, we will go with facts that are backed by evidence and proceed from there.

In order to "shave" off the fusion crust, the exterior of the rock which has heavier helium-3 content would also have to be "shaved" off. Why isn't this evident in the Apollo rocks?

How would the "shaving" off not be noticed by the numerous third parties who examined the rocks across the globe. Wouldn't it also be noticeable when they compared them to the Luna samples (which it seems you believe are legit)?

How do you explain the fact that the solar isotopes are different on the lunar meteorites than the Apollo rocks?

Since the first lunar meteorite was discovered in 1979, where did all of the rocks that were previously confirmed to be Apollo rocks come from? In addition, how did they find eight times as many meteorites prior to the Apollo missions than they have since? Here is the listing of all current lunar meteorites:

http://meteorites.wustl.edu/lunar/moon_meteorites_list_alumina.htm

How would they know how to fake the regional similarities in the rocks from different Apollo missions?

How do you account for the terrestrial wear found on the lunar meteorites which isn't present on the Apollo rocks?

If necessary I can dig through my sources and find third party, non-NASA confirmation for all of the above, but it's been quite a while since my geology class where I studied this.

There's no "insult" because nobody apart from NASA are claiming to have sent men to the moon.

And it's all very well talking about "humanity's journeys in space" but perhaps you'd like to tell me the furthest distance you think a non-NASA astronaut has ever officially travelled from Earth? As a clue, let me suggest we are talking low Earth orbit and your answer will be no more than three digits. Have a rummage around and see what you come up with, but be advised that NASA claim to have sent men about 1000x further than the Soviets (or any other nation). Surprised?

Also, you are clearly an intelligent person, perhaps you'd like to think about exactly how plausible it is that no lunar meteorite was ever discovered on Earth before 1979. Did the moon start spontaneously ejecting rocks at escape velocity as a response to...terrestrian disco music, crochet knitwear and bell-bottoms?

None of this really addresses the points of evidence that I mentioned except for the last paragraph, the rest is simply conjecture and dot-connecting. So let's focus on your question:

Also, you are clearly an intelligent person, perhaps you'd like to think about exactly how plausible it is that no lunar meteorite was ever discovered on Earth before 1979. Did the moon start spontaneously ejecting rocks at escape velocity as a response to...terrestrian disco music, crochet knitwear and bell-bottoms?

This is because it wasn't until samples were returned from the Apollo and Luna missions that people knew what they had were lunar meteorites and not other types of meteorites, there needed to be a base against which they could be compared in order to confirm that they did indeed come from our moon. This might provide some additional clarification:

"In January 1982, John Schutt, leading an expedition in Antarctica for the ANSMET program, found a meteorite that he recognized to be unusual. Shortly thereafter, the meteorite now called Allan Hills 81005 was sent to Washington, DC, where Smithsonian Institution geochemist Brian Mason recognized that the sample was unlike any other known meteorite and resembled some rocks brought back from the Moon by the Apollo program. Several years later, Japanese scientists recognized that they had also collected a lunar meteorite, Yamato 791197, during the 1979 field season in Antarctica."

and

"All six of the Apollo missions on which samples were collected landed in the central nearside of the Moon, an area that has subsequently been shown to be geochemically anomalous by the Lunar Prospector mission. In contrast, the numerous lunar meteorites are random samples of the Moon and consequently provide a more representative sampling of the lunar surface than the Apollo samples. Half the lunar meteorites, for example, likely sample material from the farside of the Moon."

This is because it wasn't until samples were returned from the Apollo and Luna missions that people knew what they had were lunar meteorites and not other types of meteorites

Yes, obviously. I am questioning your incredible naivety in believing that it took scientists 10 years to discover that we had moon rocks sitting on the surface of our own planet after we knew what moon rocks were made of.

The results of the first Luna samples would have allowed geologists to see that meteorites already in their possession were actually moon rocks.

Since this seems to be a sticking point for you I'll spend some time on it, even though you haven't addressed any of the far more scientific points I've made.

It's actually not that odd when you look at the Meteorical Bulletin Database of discovered meteors. There were no missions that found lunar meteorites prior to the Yamato expedition to Antarctica simply because nobody happened to be looking in the correct places for lunar meteorites, which until now have only been found in Antarctica, Oman, Libya, Botswana, Algeria and Sudan. Prior to that, the most extensive discovery took place in New Mexico, with no lunar meteorite samples.

The Yamato expedition that discovered the first lunar meteorites took place in 1979, so that's why it took so long following the analysis of the Apollo/Luna rocks to find any here on Earth, they simply didn't find any before then. This is confirmed by various international institutions dedicated to the very act of finding meteorites here on the ground. The Yamato expeditions are very interesting to read about and might give you some additional insight into why prior to the 1970s we found so few meteors and then basically exploded with discoveries afterwards. Just look at the number of meteors found before the mid-1970s and afterwards and it might answer your question. It's not as if they were sitting in somebody's backyard, missions to hard to get to places needed to happen in order to find the first lunar meteorites.

Furthermore, there were still very few lunar meteorites discovered even when we finally had the data from the Apollo and Luna missions. It wasn't as if all of the sudden we realized that thousands of our meteorites were from our moon, it still wasn't a very large amount. The vast majority of lunar meteorites have been found post-1980, well after we already had the approximately 400kg retrieved from the Apollo missions.

Hopefully this clears things up. You can find a full list of all currently discovered meteorites here which will provide more information:

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/

Just to confirm, you actually believe that no geologist (or indeed anyone) discovered, collected or analysed a sample of lunar meteorite before 1979? Do also you consider yourself to be...a rational person?

You have it backwards, I have demonstrated through independent non-NASA sources that this is the case based on the evidence available. If you believe otherwise, then please provide the source for your claim, otherwise it's merely non-scientific conjecture based on nothing but blind faith.

Here is some more information for you which might clear things up further:

http://meteorites.wustl.edu/what_to_do.htm

Hopefully after this, we can move on to the other, more scientific points that I have brought up earlier in the discussion which you seem to be dodging up to this point.

You are dodging my questions. Do you think it reasonable to believe that no geologist, petrologist or other scientist collected and/or analysed a lunar meteorite before 1979?

I haven't dodged it at all, the reasons for it are well covered in the materials I have provided, with documentation and confirmation from third-party, non-NASA affiliated sources. The evidence is there, I have given it to you in the most simple forms possible, you have provided nothing of merit aside from appeals to dot-connecting without any evidence (literally, zero evidence).

The evidence that I have provided demonstrates that the first lunar meteorite was discovered in 1979 by the Yamato expedition and was later confirmed to be a lunar meteorite following a similar discovery in 1982 during the ANSMET program. This doesn't mean that there aren't any other lunar meteorites, it means that either people haven't submitted them for analysis (because they might think they're just cool looking rocks) or that they have yet to be found (chances are they are underwater). Once again, it seems you don't have any basic understanding of meteorite studies or expeditions. If you look through the materials I have provided you would see that meteorite discovery accelerated quickly after the late 1960s, prior to that there simply wasn't nearly as much interest. It really is very interesting and worth researching just to expand your knowledge regarding meteorites.

It also makes sense that the far more rare lunar meteorites would take more time to discover. If we just started truly searching for and discovering meteorites in the late-1960s, then it isn't unimaginable to think that it would take ten years to find some of the more rare meteorites. This is especially likely when the first ones were discovered in Antarctica, not really easily accessible. Furthermore the fact that so few have been discovered since then makes it even more likely that there were very few, if any, discovered prior to 1979.

Now, what you are asking me to find "reasonable" is that NASA collected 382kg of lunar meteorites prior to the Apollo missions (more than has been discovered in the subsequent 50 years (almost eight times more in fact)), "scrubbed" away the fusion crust without hundreds of unaffiliated scientists noticing during their analysis and presented them as rocks from the Apollo missions. Furthermore, since so few lunar meteorites have been discovered since then, I must in addition, assume that NASA managed to scour the planet for enough meteorites to account for the 382kg that they collected during the Apollo missions and not leave nearly that amount to be found since. Once again, approximately 50kg of lunar meteorites have been found since then, so somehow, NASA, during the space race managed to find more lunar meteorites than every single international expedition since then. This makes absolutely no sense.

Furthermore, I must also assume that the third-parties who have found meteorites in Oman, who have no affiliation with NASA are somehow in cahoots with NASA in regards to the coverup, as they would need to submit the meteorites to NASA for the "shaving" and subsequent incorrect analysis disclosure.

And I'm supposed to accept all of this without any evidence whatsoever. Doesn't sound very reasonable whatsoever.

Once again, if truly necessary, I can provide verification of everything above in the form of third-party, non-NASA sources. All I'm asking for from you is any piece of evidence that supports your claim for review. Otherwise it would seem this conversation has run it's course because you haven't added anything of merit to the discussion and have yet to address the earlier scientific points brought up.

Retro reflectors (by their very nature) do not require manual placement, as evidenced by the Russian unmanned probes which did precisely this.

Another fun fact is that we were bouncing lasers off the moon long before any probes were sent. It's how we calibrated the rockets in order to land there in the first place!

As for the flag, there are no earth based telescopes (or even probes which have been sent) which can view the flag (or the craft).

Another fun fact is that there wouldn't be an American flag there even if they had really gone, due to solar radiation. It would by now be a French flag.

Thanks. Another user already let me know about the retro-reflectors.

Another fun fact is that there wouldn't be an American flag there even if they had really gone. It's a French flag.

I guess I'll be looking into this next.

There's a link there which may clarify a bit, you must have read before my edit.

Ah, gotcha. Personally not a fan of the "French flag = all white" humor, but oh well.

France and America are best bros, that's why we talk mad shit about each other.

So true. It seems like some of the people who frequent this subreddit have completely missed the concept that being intelligent and thinking outside of the box requires imagination and an open mind to entertain ideas just for the sake of entertaining them.

I mean, that is a cornerstone of thinking and using your brain. Being able to allow yourself to logically examine an idea, one that you don't necessarily believe in, just as an exercise in thought. The moon landing is a great example. I lived 30 years blindly believing that everything about it was true and then one day I was thinking about it, started looking into some alternate theories, saw a couple videos, started logically looking at the evidence and what was possible, not possible, proven, not proven, etc...

I make a couple posts about it and I am verbally attacked. Told I am a lunatic. Called an idiot. Given links to things that anyone living on Earth had already seen a thousand times since birth, which to me, is very condescending.

These fucking people act like I am some nut who spends his weekends on the corner speaking through a loudspeaker or that I am living in the basement carving my moon landing theories onto the walls with a hammer and screwdriver.

Its insane to me. And the most amazing thing, when these people come out of the woodwork and attack me, I can't help but examine the things they say and the flimsy proofs that they hide behind. And when I do that, I realize how full of shit they are and that only makes me more justified to believe that there is more to it. When you realize that millions of people believe something for no other reason than "its true because its true" than you end up questioning the entire concept of what "true" even means to the majority of people.

Its like a line by Immortal Technique: "Universal truth is not measured by mass appeal".

Nicely put.

I just wish people would take the time to listen and fully comprehend why such controversies are a big deal.

I mean 9/11 is still heavily debated to this day. Since that day more an more evidence and alternative truths have constantly been debated, yet the uninformed still only tune into the same thing they've been hearing since that exact day. Not even trying to listen and think for themselves.

They hide behind society and never want to hear how bad the government, economy, or world peace is in general, because they don't want to live in a world like they see in movies.

Soo many top box office movies depict authoritarian government, the gap between rich and poor, world war.. you would never want to believe a world like that could be possible. It's inconceivable.

I just bought Call of Duty: Advanced Warfare for ps4, and let me tell you, the campaign mode sets off a lot of alarms in my head. It's scary what they are depicting, because what they are depicting seems very possible in the near future.

A privately owned company (Atlas) rises above the government. The owner (Irons) receives Intel of a terrorist attack, kills the informant, an uses the knowledge to profit and build an unstoppable army. At one point you are taken to a prison camp, as you walk through handcuffed and being forced to look forward, you notice all of the prisoners are African-American and they are kneeling in a line above a mass grave being shot in the head.

They are depicting mass genocide, like at a holocaust level. The whole storyline is really eerie to me. The fact that it's on a game though doesn't make it any less of a possibility and that's what people don't understand.

Kind of reminds me of FEMA. They have camps for when shit gets bad; Guns, ammo, uniforms, technology, vehicles, and coffins. A lot of coffins. They are there to respond to a crisis just like Atlas was in AW. It's gonna be them when SHTF.

The only thing I not sure about is if they're privately owned.

Having played the beginning of Advanced Warfare, I was thinking the same thing. It makes me wonder so much about how the script for the game came into fruition. It's scary how before knowing about Operation Mockingbird that I wouldn't even give the plot of the game a second thought. Now I wonder.

Doesn't the head of COD have a considerably high spot in the military or something?

Hmm, haven't heard that. Wouldn't be surprised though.

EDIT: wrong person lol

Edit: :)

Told I am a lunatic

I see what you did there...

it is amazing the amount of post here that are contrary to the subreddit, is like you went to the nfl subreddit, and lots of people were commenting how much they hate football, i mean why are you posting in a subreddit you do not agree with? this is the only subreddit where the post against the subreddit theme are more that the post that agree with it

Exactly!

I always compare it to entering a guitar subreddit and telling them that they are idiots because the piano is a better instrument.

makes you wonder what type of work those people have

you raise some great points but they occur in all threads not just selfies. since we got large they're just a fact of life around here and to borrow someone's metaphor

you get flak when you are over the target

meaning the more important and on-point your post is the more it is going to suffer from all of the above.

I enjoy reading many things here. I try to ignore the rude comments and all the threads complaining about the status of this reddit. No place will be perfect, but this is at least the most civil CT forum I read.

Agreed. Awesome post

i blame the mods for the meme's to be honest, fair enough if they want to allow "political cartoons" etc i agree a picture (and a few lines) can say a thousand words but

PLEASE, some quality control, please?

This subreddit should teach how to be anonymous on the internet. Considering how reddit is popular I dont want to expose my ideas too much just in case things goes wrong in the future. I don't know if others feels as I do but still learning how to be safe can't be bad

any reasonably intelligent person can read through the bullshit and recognize a sock puppet, and conveniently ignore the bastards.

Well, people exist on every level of intelligence and unfortunately, some of those sock-puppets are using techniques that were created by very intelligent people. It is ignorant to tell everyone "just to ignore them" because that is clearly not working and is Saturday morning cartoon logic like a mother telling her son "Just ignore the bullies and they will leave you alone".

Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize half of all people are dumber than that. Movements and change need leaders and followers. I agree we should be very concerned about how other people's opinions can be easily influenced by shills.

I do not want the ignorant and stupid people be part of what I am part of. They can fuck off to /r/conspiratard and have their circlejerk. They will come back eventually when they are ready and open minded.

have to disagree with this - people whe are inexperienced and cannot connect concepts probably will be duped by the puppets, but what concern is that of someone who posts something positive and truthful? Put it out there, and there are bound to be a few individuals who will get it, regardless of all the negative backlash it receives.

And the bully analogy isn't quite accurate - it is quite effective to ignore printed media, another matter to try and ignore a physical threat. I've been ignoring ads and bullshit "news" for more than 2 decades - it works. Someone who threatens me to my face, I have to deal with it directly, and is not as easy.

thank you for taking the time, i can't afford gold (at this time)

please accept stars (not worth anything, but. . .)

    * * * * * 

I keep myself sane by remembering that Reddit is not a place it's a game.

This sub became illegitimate after it got flooded with subscribers after the Boston Bombings. That event brought it to the front page and all of the cartoon posting karma whores and trolls found a new place to stroke their insecurities.

This used to be such a nice place where you could discuss ideas whether you believed in them or not. It was a great place just to exercise critical thought. There used to be actual discussion of possible conspiracies. Now it's just all police brutality and memes. Congrats, mods, you ruined this place.

Is that why barely anyone comments on posts in this sub anymore? I enjoy reading your opinion's! Come back! What can I do to help?!

What can I do to help?!

Funny enough, you can comment more.

It's silly but I will honestly admit I'm more willing to go into a submission's comments if there are already comments.

Yes! That's exactly what I'm talking about!

Everypost I see typically has no comments or like two, I guess everyone is afraid of getting trolled/shilled!

I'm not sure what the reasoning is. For me it's because I like to bounce ideas and thoughts off of another person rather than just make a comment and voice my own opinion.

I sort of wish /r/conspiracy was more like a standard forum layout. I'm not sure if that'd help or hurt though.

I feel this happened to reddit in general. When I started redditing about 4 years ago I used to sub on /r/atheism, dislike that as you may or may not be inclined to do, it was genuinely a great sub, excellent community, tons of support and discussions, articles, Q&As, and the occaisional meme or joke here and there to break tensions. Then slowly it got very popular, and immediately unpopular a second after. The content became too diluted with intentional circle jerking or trolls. And It seems to corrode every sub.

Jesus, I just took a glimpse of /r/atheism, its full of imgur links and memes

It used to be worse. There has been a slight resurgence of actual discussion and world matters peppered in.

I just looked 30 minutes after you and see zero memes on the front page and three images.

Spooky.

Nowadays im all ' fuck upvotes, downvotes and assholes'. Lets speak our mind. Those that come looking will find us, buried deep down, below all the useless jokes and jokers. But dont stop speaking.

I vote we just make our own army of internet trolls and down vote all the super obvious propaganda and bullshit we can. Just create an army of bots to up vote and down vote things as we see fit. Turn about is fair play as they say.

I don't agree with most things you say OP, but i do agree with you on this post.

[deleted]

What?

[deleted]

symbology

Yeah, but this word isn't in the main post.

edit: thanks for proving "point 6" of my post. Every post I make as OP gets downvoted. Why is this comment downvoted? Please show me where the word "symbology" appears in the main text.

And to further prove my point, ShillOutDude had simply posted his response in the wrong thread. Yet, I got downvoted by some people who came through the thread just to downvote every response made by my blue-boxed name.

Ugh, multi-tabbing just woke up really confusing fuckup. Sorry OP. I am going to delete my comments.

No worries man. Figured you had commented in the wrong thread.

I saw that, so i upvoted you back to baseline... I doubt that it really matters though...

real dictionaries are very big books, all those 'concise' versions do not do any language justice. and online versions tend to be concise due to time and cost.

very true, opinion and thought by us the plebes is considered subversive and toxic to the 'slavemasters' and their agents.

some of the hatred and hostility is idiots jumping on a bandwagon (some of the r/conspurtard peoples are wannabe 'joiners', maybe associates and new friends of shills, so they 'help' occasionally), but behind the scenes there is the corporate and govt PR/marketing types, paid pro and amateur liars for money.

I actually would not mind if imgur links were just banned altogether from this sub, but filtering the domain in RES is the next best thing. If I don't see them they don't bother me as much. I just think they cheapen the sub giving it more of a tabloid feel that I believe harms this sub more than it helps it.

EDIT - sorry, I meant this as a reply to a thread lower down, but I felt myself "getting started" on Rule 8 again and had to step away for a sec mid-post and got myself distracted...;-)

whats the lizard bot conspiracy?

no but seriously. this subreddit is a constant war. your ammunition is the upvote and downvote buttons. use them. on every comment, on every post. vote vote vote vote vote vote vote. then we will see some real change around here. they vote brigade, the users of this subreddit unfortunately do not.

Guys I think this guy is a limited hangout... /s

I agree, the community leaves something to be desired.

I wish there was higher quality stuff on here.

It is kind of natural that there is going to be massive disagreement in a conspiracy subreddit. Everyone is going to have their own mix of opinions, evidence and prejudice.

Who controls the world? Illuminanti, Jews, bankers, reptilian aliens, the rothschilds, etc etc etc, all of them are aired here.

I think the way to combat the negativity is simple: positivity.

For all the trolls who come here simply to hate don't spend much time feeding them, maybe just say 'thanks for sharing your valid opinion friend'.

Thank you for realizing and taking the time to say something. You're exactly correct when you said that whatever theory you have outsider or not should be at least respected if not supported.

I agree with you. But lest anyone get too disheartened, I'll just mention that there's still a lot of great people here. I've only made a few self-posts (here's one and here's another), and I was really pleased with the positive responses I got.

Once a post gets upvoted to the front page and cross-linked to other subreddits, it's just inevitable that you're going to get negative reactions.

I feel this topic directly contradicts rule 2, or is there some sort of meta loophole? I can't tell where the wool ends anymore.

Be strong. Easier said than done, but sometimes you just gotta go "Full Curmudgeon" and tell the naysayers go fuck themselves right in the ass. If you have something to say that you think others might benefit from hearing, then I say STILL POST IT. I think it's still 100% worth it to post some compelling information even if a shit ton of asswipes try to shit on it because even in the midst of all those naysayers, there might be one or two people that look at the information intelligently and end up going O_o "Oh shit." and learning something that they didn't know before...and there you just opened a few more new eyes, you know?

When you post interesting information, don't post it for all the asswipes that will likely comment only so they can try to bring you/the information down. Post it for those few individuals that might actually get something relevant out of it. The others can, again, go fuck themselves right in the ass.

I did experience everything you said the last ten years everywhere where there is talking about conspiracies. When the board is popular they sneak into the discussion and after some time you get to know their modus operandi and you really do not care anymore because you beat them easily on their own game. From my perspective the reason I do not post much here anymore is not to avoid the attacks, but to give you the opportunity to experience it by yourself. What is not killing you makes you stronger.

It doesn't hurt that a lot of the self-posts, especially on new, are full of shitpost rambles with no sources.

Bravo, OP. I couldn't agree more with what you stated in this post. I just don't get why people (who aren't open minded to thinking outside the box) come and just talk shit.

Commenters who play the "whats the conspiracy" or "this is not a conspiracy" distraction game.

The first is not always an attack.

This subreddit is not only for things that fall strictly under Webster's dictionary definition of 'conspiracy theory'.

Even the term 'conspiracy theory' has evolved and has become a loaded word with a meaning that radiates far beyond what those two words mean independently.

You also have people here who argue that things that are legal are not conspiracies. The aftermath of 9/11 was legal. Arresting the Boston bombers was legal. The NSA is legal. And a thousand other examples.

Ive been in the position where an OP posted some stuff, and i legitly didnt know which conspiracy theory he was trying to address. So, i simply asked him what is the conspiracy. It went downhill after that, just because i couldnt understand his angle.

So i agree with u/cantstopwhitey, in that the first isnt always an attack. But, it certainly is used as one sometimes.

Plot twist : trolls are nothing but the government trying to lead us off their trail

I have experienced that many of my posts on this subreddit get lots of downvoting. In my case I think it's ok since those posts are often contrary to the "politically correct" conspiracy theories. Even truthers may be sensitive to cognitive dissonance:

"In psychology, cognitive dissonance is the mental stress or discomfort experienced by an individual who holds two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values at the same time, or is confronted by new information that conflicts with existing beliefs, ideas, or values.[1][2]" -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

Or maybe the downvoting is mainly a result of those of my posts not being good enough and/or that people downvote just as a means of cheating competition. :D

Yep, you are completely right, and you would get downvoted of course, if you try to convince a mad person that he is crazy, you will end in a nonsensical battle. The solution is to explain with facts instead of diagnosing him with a mental sickness, you just need to push the snowball and let it roll. Conspiracy theorist are know for being deeply attach to their favorite topic, even when new information comes out proving or disproving their beliefs, they take more than the average time to analyze it, mostly because its know that Internet is full of people that want to change your mind for heir own interests and its hard to verify information that is not available to general public.

You forgot the part where this sub is full of insane paranoid people

I see far more insanity on a sub like r/worldnews.

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. So I see a lot of insanity spewing from the majority US user-base who keep believing their media even though history proves time and time again that humanity is lied into war, death, and famine.

The people on this subreddit who believe the moon is a hologram are nothing compared to the nuts upvoting and circlejerking each other on the majority of major subreddits.

people on this subreddit who believe the moon is a hologram are nothing compared to the nuts ...

This is what I hate, no ones pet conspiracy theory should be beneath anyone. Why is it ok to believe that kennedy was killed by more than 1 gunman, but not ok to believe the moon is holographically shielded.

Or why is it ok to believe that SH was a hoax, but not the apollo moon landings?

The only thing I judge is close mindedness .. There is no one here (or anywhere) that can say for sure, one way or another, what happened .. so we speculate, and even our own kind look down and ridicule.

This is Reddit. Everything you've described is an aspect of the page. Honestly if you want to avoid the above, create your own forum or social network, invite your friends, and block the trolls. It's the only way.

I think everyone should post whatever they please. More submissions would be good and are encouraged. You can't really control comments.

TL;DR JDF ? ?

[deleted]

You know what sucks most about reddit and life in general? Drama queens - stop being a fucking drama queen.

This is the shit he's talking about... you are part of the problem.

Exactly

The post is statement of facts and opinion about those facts. Nowhere does OP become dramatic. On the other hand, your post is dramatic because you gripe about "life in general" and is purely emotive in nature.

Whats dramatic about posting something that took me 5 minutes to write?

Woah; calm down, Elizabeth!

/s

irrooonnyyyyy

"Why is everyone against memes here? If they open a door to a conversation"

Memes are like poems from a 100-thousand foot view. Very rarely can anything come from, say, a comedian meme that states: "What kind of country allows kids that can't even drink yet the ability to join the military?"

It's just loaded bullshit that shoots to number one with 2700 upvotes. The comment sections are usually piss-water with nothing worth talking about. It's something you will notice over time, especially if you are thirsty for real content that addresses actual conspiracy. The pontificated observances in meme form belong somewhere else. I would gladly trade each and every meme for a self-post any time.

If memes open the door to good analytical and civil discussion, i suppose that would be a good thing. But thats just about all the good a meme can offer.

My main problem with memes are that they are incredibly low-invest posts. Most people who post them dont even personally create them. They just copy and paste. Its similar to those click-bait websites. And its so easy and fast to do, that some folks do it all the time to garner alot of karma (as if it really matters).

To be fair, i take a similar stance on link.posts. But, link.posts have a greater potential, imo, to induce constructive discourse than a simple meme, due to the fact that many links are to news articles that relay relevant information for some conspiracy theorists, whilst memes are typically only used to invoke humor.

Well, people exist on every level of intelligence and unfortunately, some of those sock-puppets are using techniques that were created by very intelligent people. It is ignorant to tell everyone "just to ignore them" because that is clearly not working and is Saturday morning cartoon logic like a mother telling her son "Just ignore the bullies and they will leave you alone".