If you are ignorant, and you know it (or at least stated it), then why use such instigating and provocative words as "song and dance", "myth about Templar connections" and "paranoia"? This is not objective, neutral language. These are the words of someone who thinks they know what's going on and will likely reject what doesn't seem to fit with their personal narrative.

So provide him with information to make an objective, logical conclusion about Freemasonry?

Read what I already posted on here. Or, better yet, I'll copy and paste what I put up for you so you can just read it here:

as far as answering the question...you know what? I don't actually care enough about the topic in the first place to actually answer it one way or the other. That's not even the point.

This shit [i.e. my point] is meta, dude - not specific. In other words, he could be asking about ANYTHING regardless of whether I or anyone else knows about it one way or the other. He could be asking anything regardless of whether I or anyone else is interested in it or regardless of whether he's actually RIGHT about thinking it's "paranoia" or not.

NONE OF THAT IS EVEN THE POINT.

The point is that this sub is supposed to be for and about CRITICAL THINKING on subjects that are OUTSIDE of manipulative PTB narrative. As such, you should check your presumptions about what you "think" is and is not "paranoia" and b.s. at the door.

Great, but attacking the OP isn't exactly constructive. Mentioning his bias is one thing, but distracting from the topic isn't constructive at all.

You can't cure ignorance by accusing someone of ignorance and subverting discussion.

Great, but attacking the OP isn't exactly constructive.

Dude...Jesus Christ I WAS NOT ATTACKING THE OP. Where the hell are you guys getting that idea from? Ya'll are saying I'm attacking him because I'm saying that the words he used WERE indeed inflammatory, not objective, and were negatively leading? That was not "attacking" him.

THAT'S WHAT THOSE WORDS ACTUALLY WERE.

Mentioning his bias is one thing, but distracting from the topic isn't constructive at all.

Okay but where exactly did I "distract from the topic" aside from mentioning his bias? What I was doing was calling him out on his bias...and a few people on here are accusing me of "not being constructive"? What? Seriously? Come on, man.

I can definitely be an asshole. I understand that. However, I was NOT being an asshole to him. I might not have been frickin' handling the dude with kid mittens, but we're all grown boys and girls here. We should be objective - yes - but we shouldn't have to try to only speak in "flowery language" or whatever for fear of hurting or offending somebody. Come on, bro.

You can't cure ignorance by accusing someone of ignorance and subverting discussion.

See...That's fucked up though, man. That's a seriously straw man fallacy there though. You're accusing me of something that I WASN'T AND AM NOT doing. You're the one that put that on what I said - not me. I didn't "subvert the discussion". I ALIGNED it (or at least attempted to).

Do you see the difference there? The OP STARTED the conversation and the questioning with a negative "it's ignorant b.s., but..." perspective and slant in the first place. So how exactly am I "subverting the discussion" when what I am trying to do is ALIGN it by trying to have him rephrase his wordage or change his thinking in a manner that DOESN'T start off thinking that the subject matter in question is b.s. in the first place? How can your mind even be really receptive to learning the truth on a subject if you come into it already thinking "this is b.s., but..."?

THAT is not "ignorance" on my part, man. And, for the record - even though I never accused OP of "ignorance" - sometimes you actually CAN cure someone's ignorance by TELLING them they're being ignorant.

If someone actually IS being ignorant, for example, and you let them know that, occasionally (though not often), you might get a person who is astute and developed enough and doesn't have a fragile or inflated ego enough to see whether what they are saying IS indeed ignorant or not...and if it actually is ignorant (i.e. lacking in correct knowledge in one way or the other), the person in question might say "Oh wow. I didn't realize that. Thank you for pointing that out to me. Cheers."

This, unfortunately, might not be too common an occurrence, but (even though I didn't out and out call OP "ignorant") sometimes you CAN indeed fight ignorance by calling somebody out on it and specifically letting them know they're being such.

I didn't "subvert the discussion".

Certainly it's self evident this is not the case. We're clearly off-topic.

lol. But it wasn't because of ME doing it, man! lol. Wow. Facepalm. It was because YOU guys got butthurt over the fact that I tried to tell OP not to say he/she is ignorant on a subject yet shows obvious preconceived notions against it! If you really are ignorant about it, then dismissing it by saying "I think it's paranoia" actually implies the OPPOSITE of ignorance because it assumes that one KNOWS it's "paranoia" (i.e. not really worth serious inquiry).

You don't see how that's not ME diverting and subverting the topic, but you guys doing it?

Dang. That's like literally crazy that ya'll are calling me on "diverting the OP" when we wouldn't even be TALKING about this at all if you guys hadn't kept harking on how it was I said it...if YOU guys didn't (incorrectly) accuse me of "diverting the OP".

One, I haven't been off topic AT ALL. Two, read this.

I'm "ranting" at you? Really? I'm ranting because you came in with negative preconceived notions and you got called out on it? Really? Is that what you call "ranting"?

...Wow. Okay.

I wonder if you even know what "ranting" means.

But okay. Think what you want.

You ramble, you use all caps for lots of words, you try and patronise.

You're a child and have skin that is so thin that you get butt hurt when you get called out on not knowing how to think right.

I already told you I personally don't even think or care enough about the Masons to begin with to give you a history on them.

THAT WASN'T THE POINT.

(how's that for "all caps"?)

EDIT: Damn. What's even worse is that the responses to this OP have become so long that I would imagine that SOMEBODY'S already given you an answer to your question, haven't they? And yet you still persist on coming here and asking me? What? have you not read the other responses to you also? Facepalm.

"think right" I thought that this sub is meant to challenge popular beliefs going against the notion that you can "think right".

No, man. lol. That is actually NOT what this sub is about at all. It's about going against thinking WRONG regardless of whatever the popular notions are about things one way or the other. This is actually different than what you just stated above. What you stated above says that this sub is about "going against thinking right"...and, again, it's NOT about that.

You see what I'm talking about here? You actually made the very same mistake AGAIN that you started this OP with. You made a comment that is actually worded and THOUGHT OUT incorrectly, and I'm simply pointing that out to you.

Yet what do you do? You waste your time and get upset THAT I'M POINTING IT OUT or that I'm using "all caps" or whatever rather than actually stopping and thinking about what it is I'm actually saying - rather than stopping and thinking about the fact that you ARE indeed phrasing and thinking about things incorrectly.

I am also not "butt hurt" if you didn't know enough then why did you even reply to this post?

Because you're not thinking right, motherfucker, and I'm simply calling you out on it - like I said from the jump.

You came here essentially saying "I know 2+2=5, but ya'll can try to convince me that it's not."

What kind of attitude is that to come in with trying to get any answers to ANYTHING? You don't really want answers if you come in like that is my point. You want confirmation that what you THINK is right is indeed right...even if it's not right.

I did not say this sub is about "going against thinking right".

But look at your phrasing. Look at how you said what you said:

I thought that this sub is meant to challenge popular beliefs going against the notion that you can "think right".

"popular beliefs going against the notion that you can 'think right'."

That statement, at absolute best, is very, very ambiguous. It can mean various things. All I'm saying is that the words you used conveyed certain meanings, and that meaning seemed to indicate a touch of confusion.

There is not a "right way" to think,

...Well, while this in theory seems valid TO A CERTAIN EXTENT, I would say that, contextually-speaking, there are indeed certain ways to think that are actually better than others. As such, even though one can, I guess, think however they want, SOME ways of thinking are more conducive toward certain outcomes than others. This is another way of saying that (again, contextually-speaking) some ways of thinking ARE indeed "more right" than others.

there are alternate ways to think.

Absolutely, and that is in large part what this sub IS about. However, even within the context of those alternative ways of thinking, there are certain epistemological standards that seem to apply across the board regardless of whether you're thinking "alternatively" or not.

At the end of the day you are convinced that you have the "right" way to think and you can keep thinking that

...Dude...at the end of the day, I am "convinced" that my way of thinking is indeed "right" because I'm abiding by the standards of GENERAL, OVER-ARCHING EPISTEMOLOGY that exist in this dimension we live in. You don't actually know what that means though...do you?

The reason I do indeed "think I'm right" and will indeed keep thinking that way (until someone shows me otherwise) is because 2+2 in this world HAS indeed been thus far shown to be 4. "Up" has shown itself to be up. "Down" has shown itself to be down.

Therefore, if you say "up" but you really mean "down", then it is in fact YOU that are speaking incorrectly, and if you continue doing that, then you likely won't be very well-understood in your life.

Good luck,

Continue doing that?

Continue doing what?

9/11 was set up by USA that is not certain.

It might not be "certain", but there is soooo much evidence of it that it might as well be. It's a bit of a foregone conclusion at this point. There's more evidence for it than there is for some other things in the world that people DO actually take as a foregone conclusion.

St johns ambulance service originates directly from the knights hospitaller that is right

I don't know one way or the other, but sure. I'm sure one can say that's correct if the facts add up.

Either way...what exactly was your point here? I'm agreeing with enough of these statements. What now?

lol. What? Man...You're not even making sense. Okay though. You can just stop. This has gone one way too long already anyway. Moving on.

Cheers,

Just answer his question. This is why we can't have discussions.

Really? You're really going to try to put some kind of blame on me for stating that coming in with presumptuous attitudes is, perhaps, NOT a good thing and not the most conducive to possibly learning something new? If somebody comes in and says "Dude, I know 'theory 1, 2, 3' is paranoia b.s., but I'll let you try to convince me anyway." what kind of basis do you really think you're starting with? You're really going to try to waste your time with someone who's already convinced that they think they know what's going on if they actually don't? Maybe YOU should try to try to answer the question then.

And this has nothing to do with "why we can't have discussions" in this thread one way or the other. We can't have discussions not because people get called out on presumptuous attitudes. We can't have discussions because people COME IN with presumptuous attitudes in the first fucking place.

And as far as answering the question...you know what? I don't actually care enough about the topic in the first place to actually answer it one way or the other. That's not even the point.

This shit is meta, dude - not specific. In other words, he could be asking about ANYTHING regardless of whether I or anyone else knows about it one way or the other. He could be asking anything regardless of whether I or anyone else is interested in it or regardless of whether he's actually RIGHT about thinking it's "paranoia" or not.

NONE OF THAT IS EVEN THE POINT.

The point is that this sub is supposed to be for and about CRITICAL THINKING on subjects that are OUTSIDE of manipulative PTB narrative. As such, you should check your presumptions about what you "think" is and is not "paranoia" and b.s. at the door.

and THAT'S why we can't have discussions in this thread. Not because of anyone pointing out what I'm pointing out.

Put your critical thinking cap on, man. You apparently dropped it somewhere.

Take a breath, partner, and grab a chair. Let the cattle amuse themselves for the night, eh?

I think they "amuse" themselves far too often.

'Tis true. But those who cannot see the brand in the mirror will refuse a photograph we show them. Let them amuse themselves. Ignorance can be peace.

Do you really say "'tis"?

Ignorance is NEVER "peace", my good man. On this planet, it seems what you don't know will always, always, sooner or later come up and bite you straight in the ass...and it's a horrible feeling.

The longer one remains ignorant (especially if one is willfully ignorant), the worse it will be when the truth finally does hit you because you will be blindsided by what you're not expecting.

I agree. That's my point - if they have (at this point) chosen ignorance over rationality and critical thinking, so be it. They are lost and not worth my energy for redemption.

Fair enough, sir. I often feel the same way. Sometimes I make SOME sort of an attempt before saying "fuck'em", however. This was one of those such attempts...but I guess I should have just said "fuck'em" from the get go instead...

Oh well...

All good my man. Sometimes you gotta rattle the cages, I know.

Or just go with the flow.

Still waiting on your clever and insightful reply to OP's question, prole.

Here is an in-context thorough look at Freemasonic literature.

This video will shed light on what they preach and what they believe.

I love that old video. It's crap if you want to understand the Fraternity, but if you pay close attention, it makes the point fairly often that no one view of what the Fraternity is can be correct. On that we agree.

tl;dr: They're the Bad Guys.

Still just scratching the surface...:

EXCLUSIVE: Secret service infiltrated paedophile group to 'blackmail establishment' http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/485529/Special-Branch-funded-Paedophile-Information-Exchange-says-Home-Office-whistleblower[1]

'More than 10' politicians on list held by police investigating Westminster 'paedophile ring' Whistleblower who prompted Operation Fernbridge says up to 40 MPs and peers knew about or took part in child abuse http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10947561/More-than-10-politicians-on-list-held-by-police-investigating-Westminster-paedophile-ring.html[2]

Nearly everyone on UK paedophile ring list is a Freemason says abuse victim https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6m-5BUNXfNU[3]

Margaret Thatcher 'personally covered up' child abuse allegations against senior ministers: The Tory Prime Minister is said to have held a meeting with a rising star, who was tipped for promotion, and told him: “You have to clean up your sexual act” http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/2akwze/margaret_thatcher_personally_covered_up_child/[4]

Children's homes were 'supply line' for paedophiles, says ex-minister Lord Warner says an inquiry he conducted in 1992 showed how children's homes were targeted by powerful people http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jul/08/children-homes-supply-line-paedophiles-lord-warner[5]

Westminster paedophile ring allegations: timeline Here are the key events in the claims around an alleged VIP paedophile ring in Westminster http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10950127/Westminster-paedophile-ring-allegations-timeline.html[6]

Canadian Sex Worker kicked out of Senate hearings on controversial prostitution law after threatening to reveal list of Canadian federal politicians who use prostitution. http://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/2g3ch2/canadian_sex_worker_kicked_out_of_senate_hearings/[7]

Jehovah's Witnesses destroyed documents showing child abuse allegations, court told in cover-up case http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/29f9wp/jehovahs_witnesses_destroyed_documents_showing/[8]

Salvation Army 'rented out' boys at Sydney children’s home in Sydney to paedophiles http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/australia/10606458/Salvation-Army-rented-out-boys-at-Sydney-childrens-home-in-Sydney-to-paedophiles.html[9]

TIL that a woman, hired by Dyncorp to crackdown on forced prostitution on behalf of the UN, discovered that the UN police were the main perpetrators of forced prostitution and was later fired. http://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/15r2j4/til_that_a_woman_hired_by_dyncorp_to_crackdown_on/[10]

WikiLeaks Reveals That Military Contractors Have Not Lost Their Taste For Child Prostitutes http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/08/wikileaks-reveals-that-mi_n_793816.html[11]

The Whistleblower: Sex Trafficking, Military Contractors, and One Woman's Fight for Justice http://www.amazon.com/The-Whistleblower-Trafficking-Military-Contractors/dp/B005CDUBC2/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1331445269&sr=8-4[12]

Sounds like Blackwater founder Erik Prince was operating a child prostitution service in Iraq http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6249748[13]

1989 News: Call boys in Bush Sr's Whitehouse http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5OJPeHCmhA[14]

1989 #2 News: Call boys in Bush Sr's Whitehouse https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sU-k-tfiPfs[15]

1989 story about Bush Sr. Whitehouse call Boy sex ring http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2003/02/06/15709461.php[16]

Nixon Tape Discusses Homosexuals at Bohemian Grove https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPb-PN9F2Pc[17]

Charges refiled against former Pittsburgh cop accused of running prostitution ring http://triblive.com/news/2222380-74/johns-police-criminal-charges-pittsburgh-prostitution-allegheny-charged-counts-county#axzz2Qc0wAaBg[18]

Former TSA employee fined $500 for running prostitution ring Man confronted by police in Silver Spring hotel in February http://www.gazette.net/article/20120611/NEWS/706119952/1007/former-tsa-employee-fined-500-for-running-prostitution-ring&template=gazette[19]

School board member convicted of running prostitution ring in California http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/02/08/16904911-school-board-member-convicted-of-running-prostitution-ring-in-california?lite[20]

FBI dad’s spyware experiment accidentally exposes pedophile principal http://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/146xzt/fbi_dads_spyware_experiment_accidentally_exposes/[21]

The Franklin Cover-Up - John DeCamp - Full film http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcWrrBceuP4[22]

The Franklin Cover-up: Child Abuse, Satanism, and Murder in Nebraska http://www.amazon.com/The-Franklin-Cover-up-Satanism-Nebraska/dp/0963215809/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1366098964&sr=8-1&keywords=franklin+coverup[23]

Pentagon Child Porn Scandal: Security Agencies Were Left At Risk, Investigators Say http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/07/23/pentagon-child-porn-scand_n_656839.html[24]

Secret Service Prostitution Scandal http://www.huffingtonpost.com/news/secret-service-prostitution-scandal[25]

A Party under Fire: A Scandal-Scarred GOP Asks, ‘What Next?’ Explicit e-mails with under-age male pages. Criminal lobbyists. Being on client lists for prostitution rings. FBI corruption investigations. And, now, soliciting sex in an airport bathroom. People are beginning to wonder: how low can Republican lawmakers go? http://www.spiegel.de/international/a-party-under-fire-a-scandal-scarred-gop-asks-what-next-a-502653.html[26]

Spitzer Is Linked to Prostitution Ring http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/10/nyregion/10cnd-spitzer.html[27]

The D.C. Madam Case, All Sordid Out http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2008-04-11/opinions/36798466_1_deborah-jeane-palfrey-prosecutors-shock-and-awe[28]

Mike Horner Prostitution Scandal: GOP State Rep. Resigns After Name Reportedly Surfaces On Client List http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/24/mike-horner-sex-prostitution-scandal_n_1910647.html[29]

Another One: Top Federal Judge Linked to Prostitution Ring http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=4452917&page=1#.UW0JY0pcnn4[30]

‘Comfort Women’ Controversy Comes to New York http://rendezvous.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/05/10/comfort-women-controversy-comes-to-new-york/[31]

Pope Francis: 'About 2%' of Catholic clergy paedophiles http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28282050[32]

Pope begs forgiveness for 'sacrilegious cult' of Church sexual abuse http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/07/us-pope-abuse-idUSKBN0FC15J20140707[33]

Vatican arrests former archbishop on paedophilia charges http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/09/23/us-vaitican-abuse-arrest-idUSKCN0HI28T20140923[34]

Sex scandal rocks Vatican: Papal usher, chorister linked to gay prostitution ring http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/sex-scandal-rocks-vatican-papal-usher-chorister-linked-gay-prostitution-ring-article-1.172149[35]

BBC News - Catholic Church loses child abuse liability appeal http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/wfq5e/bbc_news_catholic_church_loses_child_abuse/[36]

Ireland admits involvement in Catholic laundry slavery http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57567706/ireland-admits-involvement-in-catholic-laundry-slavery/[37]

Cover-up claims revive sex scandal Belgian establishment accused of closing ranks to block investigation http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/1999/apr/21/stephenbates[38]

Belgium Pedophilia Scandal /Did Authorities Cover Up Its Scope?: Book Revives Fear of Grand Conspiracy http://www.nytimes.com/1999/12/16/news/16iht-brussels.2.t.html?pagewanted=all[39]

Portugal's elite linked to paedophile ring Abuse was reportedly going on at Lisbon orphanage for 20 years http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/nov/27/childprotection.uk[40]

FBI Ran Pedophile Ring to Nab Pedophiles As late as last year, the FBI ran a child pornography operation in an attempt to nab its customers. The service ran for two weeks "while attempting to identify more than 5,000 customers, according to a Seattle FBI agent's statements to the court." http://www.breitbart.com/InstaBlog/2013/05/30/FBI-Ran-Pedophile-Ring-to-Nab-Pedophiles[41]

Boy Scouts helped alleged molesters cover tracks, files show When volunteers and employees were suspected of sexually abusing children, Boy Scout officials often didn't tell police, files from 1970-91 reveal. In many cases they sought to hide the situation. http://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-boy-scouts-files-20120916,0,1641796.story#axzz2xIsUM5rH[42]

Child Sex Case Adds Outrage To Scandals Rocking Belgium http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1996-10-27/news/9610270253_1_marc-dutroux-minister-willy-claes-jean-marc-connerotte[43]

Theme park employees caught in child porn arrests http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/14/us/theme-park-employees-child-sex-stings/[44]

Former acting HHS cybersecurity director convicted on child porn charges http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2014/08/26/former-acting-hhs-cybersecurity-director-convicted-on-child-porn-charges/[45]

Hundreds held over Canada child porn Police in Canada say 348 people have been arrested and nearly 400 children rescued during a three-year investigation into child pornography. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-24944358[46]

Los Angeles Deputy City Attorney Arrested on Child Porn Charges http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/Los-Angeles-Deputy-City-Attorney-arrested-on-child-porn-charges-the-City-Attorneys-Office-said-274174791.html

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I can't reply to all of these, especially since some are dead links, but most are either outright fabrications or extreme attempts to stretch trivial facts into criminal activities. All of them are presented without any evidence whatsoever, and you're relying on a preponderance of references to bad sources to cover that glaring problem.

Ah. So you're not a neutral party looking for information, as your post implies. You're a shill trying to stick up for Freemasons in a last ditch PR campaign.

Understand that you're shilling for mass murderers and rapists, which makes you complicit in their crimes. And "Just tryin to pay rent" might sound good in your head, but it probably won't go over well in court.

Ah. So you're not a neutral party looking for information, as your post implies.

Not my post, man.

You're a shill trying to stick up for Freemasons in a last ditch PR campaign.

Heehee! That's funny. I don't think we need PR.

Understand that you're shilling for mass murderers and rapists

Evidence, please.

Router logs and bank/blockchain records. Piece of cake.

I await your evidence...

I'm just a guy on Reddit. Don't worry about me.

Heehee! That's funny. I don't think we need PR.

So you admit you're a Freemason.

Next few years gonna be rough..

So you admit you're a Freemason.

Admit? Um... I've never made a secret of it.

Next few years gonna be rough..

I very much doubt it. Both Catholicism and all fraternal organizations (from the KoC to Freemasonry to the various animal Lodges in the US such as the Elks) have seen a dramatic decline in membership from 1980 to 2005, but Freemasonry is starting to bounce back as is the Church, and I think this century is going to have just as many highs and lows for both as the previous one.

Nah, you guys are being outted, worldwide, as an international criminal organization. You're part of a known criminal enterprise. And the chickens are coming home to roost.

you guys are being outted, worldwide, as an international criminal organization

Heh. Good luck with that. Let me know when you have some evidence. If it pans out, I'll be happy to join you with the pitchforks and torches. Until then, you are free to continue believing whatever you wish, but it's unlikely to actually affect the real world where Freemasonry is as far from your fantasy as it's possible to get.

Well, the reasons are very practical, I feel. Masons tend to be "elite" people in key positions of society, and masonic lodges offer a clandestine way of bypassing serious conflict of interest for various deals and agreements.

Heh. My Lodge is full of tattoo artists and firemen. "Elite". Heh.

Why are they masons? Isn't it bizarre and childish for adults to be part of a secret society?

Why are they masons? Isn't it bizarre and childish for adults to be part of a secret society?

Is it bizarre and childish to work to make yourself a better person?

How on earth is freemasonry related to becoming a "better person"? There are tons of other ways of becoming a better person without joining a freaking secret society. Secret societies are not part of a healthy personal psychology nor should they exist in an open and transparent society. Already the serious issues of conflict of interest should make them illegal.

How on earth is freemasonry related to becoming a "better person"? There are tons of other ways of becoming a better person

Of course. I think you're constructing a false dichotomy.

Secret societies are not part of a healthy personal psychology nor should they exist in an open and transparent society.

First off, I think the term "secret society is overly vague and doesn't really apply to Freemasonry. We have some secrets, but we're far from a secret society. Second, you haven't explained what you think the problem is...

When you have police chiefs, judges, various CEOs, political figures, etc. all in the same lodges, don't you think that's a major cause for concern?

When you have police chiefs, judges, various CEOs, political figures, etc. all in the same lodges, don't you think that's a major cause for concern?

I'd much rather have them in the same Lodge together with blue collar workers and artists and teachers than to be off in some ivory tower, ignoring the reality of the world they live in, so no, that doesn't bother me at all!

In my Lodge there are rich people, influential people, even a couple of more or less famous people. But there are computer programmers (like me), tattoo artists (3 of them!), firemen, middle managers, students, ministers and so much more. We're a true cross-section of our community, brought together by a common desire to do more for that community.

Jesus it isn't even secret. They just want to be sure that the people who are interested are actually going to participate. The only qualification to get in is some sort of theism, being male, and asking to join... If there is something going on at the top then it isn't widespread. Most lodges are ran by local members. They communicate on rare biannual events. At least in my town our masonic lodge is an extension for blue collar folks after they grow out of boy scouts. Calling it secret... Honestly, they just want people to be curious.

I would just like to know why people make such a song and dance about the masons.

maybe you should cure your ignorance by actually investigating the subject yourself? instead of coming here asking a bunch of "paranoid" people for information you will dismiss as "crazyyy!"?

The Anti-Masonic Party was the third official political party in the United States. You are ignorant to history.

If a whole wiki page outlining the history of an entire political party based on anti-masonic sentiments does not answer your question, then you are not really inquiring. You are here to confirm your own preconceptions, trying to debate your Templar argument, or perhaps just trolling from r/conspiritard?

I echo no1113's post. If you're serious, you have a long year of casual reading and learning to do, minimum.

Start by reading up on the Taxil Hoax and the decentralized nature of Grand Lodges. Once your understand that most of what you'll read on the net about conspiracies is false and that there's no one central administration of Freemasonry, you'll be much closer to understanding who we are.

Masons are directly connected to Templars and can be dated as far back as ancient Egypt. It's a secret society, what do you expect. They keep what they do secret, therefore the public speculates. Be open and transparent and you wont have a conspiracy theory. If you don't, we are going to speculate based on history and rumors. Catch my drift? They aren't being open, which leads us to look at history and rumors. Most prominent members are masons. Why? Why are they so secret? There is the conspiracy.

edit: a word.

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It's not just secrecy. If you read their literature and get a grasp of their doctrine, it's a secular humanist religion. It is the essence of occult teaching.

They preach enlightened humanism and salvation by works, the exact opposite of what the Bible teaches. Its very nature is Satanic, and many of their most exalted teachers have made direct reference to Lucifer as the source of their illumination.

Freemasonry is a cult with connections to the most dastardly hideous society and rulers man has ever seen, not to mention Freemasons hold privileged positions in high places.

It is spiritual wickedness in every way.

I know man, you think higher thinking and enlightenment of any kind is satanic. Give it a rest. God (for me the creator) gave us a brain. Best we use it, or else we would be doing it a disservice. This is completely different than free masons. I think they are searching for higher enlightenment, however I think they are corrupt as shit and have a major role in the elite. It's not the same as searching for higher enlightenment and a supreme awareness of self.

On a side note: How are you so strong in your beliefs of the bible. I don't get it. Don't you know the history of it?

Yes. The history of the Bible is prophetic of the new world order. What we're seeing now is deeply rooted in its history. The Bible is a warning, which is why they destroy those who place their faith in its teachings over their church's teachings.

It's not just secrecy. If you read their literature and get a grasp of their doctrine, it's a secular humanist religion. It is the essence of occult teaching.

They're really not that secret. The teachings esoteric and are largely about becoming a better person. It's geared around moral self improvement.

They preach enlightened humanism and salvation by works, the exact opposite of what the Bible teaches. Its very nature is Satanic, and many of their most exalted teachers have made direct reference to Lucifer as the source of their illumination.

They do a lot, anonymously, for charity and fund raising. Incidentally, so do many religious bodies. It makes the world a better place.

The is zero evidence of satanism in freemasonry. In fact satanism runs counter to everything that freemasonry stands for.

Lucifer is an esoteric archetype that is not the same thing as Satan at all. Lucifer is similar to prometheus, giving knowledge and wisdom to humankind. That's the correct esoteric concept.

Freemasonry is a cult with connections to the most dastardly hideous society and rulers man has ever seen, not to mention Freemasons hold privileged positions in high places.

You could level the same accusation at Christianity.

People are subject to doing good or bad regardless of their affiliations.

The teachings esoteric and are largely about becoming a better person. It's geared around moral self improvement.

Correct. They teach salvation through enlightened humanism, contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ.

They do a lot, anonymously, for charity and fund raising. Incidentally, so do many religious bodies. It makes the world a better place.

This isn't contrary t the nature of Satan whatsoever. It's in his best interest to represent mankind's best interests. The only thing he would leave out is God from those interests.

The is zero evidence of satanism in freemasonry. In fact satanism runs counter to everything that freemasonry stands for.

It's a path to salvation without God, contrary to Jesus' teachings. That's Satanic by its very nature, period.

Good works is not what's going to get you into heaven and anything contrary to the gospel is Satanic by nature. The definition comes from Biblical theology, not from 'devil worshipping.' They're leading people astray with good intentions... that's Satan's method of operation.

Correct. They teach salvation through enlightened humanism, contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ.

It's not salvation of any kind. Merely a betterment of the self by knowing yourself and improving yourself.

This isn't contrary t the nature of Satan whatsoever. It's in his best interest to represent mankind's best interests. The only thing he would leave out is God from those interests.

So it's satanic to raise money for charitable good causes to improve the lot of those less fortunate or in need? All charities are satanic?

It's a path to salvation without God, contrary to Jesus' teachings. That's Satanic by its very nature, period.

It's absolutely nothing to do with salvation. In fact a lot of its esoteric moral teachings are sourced from the Bible.

What's more, believing in a supreme being is a requisite for being a freemason. Indeed some parts of it, such as the Rose Croix, require that you are a Christian.

Good works is not what's going to get you into heaven and anything contrary to the gospel is Satanic by nature. The definition comes from Biblical theology, not from 'devil worshipping.' They're leading people astray with good intentions... that's Satan's method of operation.

They're not in freemasonry to seek salvation or get into heaven. Is brushing my teeth satanic? Studying history? Science?

So it's satanic to raise money for charitable good causes to improve the lot of those less fortunate or in need? All charities are satanic?

This isn't what I said. Satan is a deceiver who uses good intentions for the 'betterment' of mankind, which is in his opinion separation from God. He turns the picture upside down and brings us to get in touch with ourselves instead.

Wisdom starts with the fear of God.

What's more, believing in a supreme being is a requisite for being a freemason.

Which furthermore points out it's a religion.

They're not in freemasonry to seek salvation or get into heaven.

You're right. There in it to enlighten themselves and transcend spiritually. They preach good works.

It's all darkness. The true light is that Jesus died for us and our salvation is in the hands of Him, our God. We must believe upon Him and we are saved by grace, not by good works. It is our faith in Him that saves us and grows us spiritually.

This isn't what I said. Satan is a deceiver who uses good intentions for the 'betterment' of mankind, which is in his opinion separation from God. He turns the picture upside down and brings us to get in touch with ourselves instead.

This doesn't make any sense at all. Becoming a better person isn't satanic and doesn't result in separation from God if you're religious. It just means you become a better person.

Wisdom starts with the fear of God.

Just...no. This is horribly broken thinking. Fear is a tool used for oppression and domination.

Which furthermore points out it's a religion.

No, it doesn't. It just means that you need to believe in a supreme being. Nothing more, nothing less.

You're right. There in it to enlighten themselves and transcend spiritually. They preach good works.

Nothing is preached.

It's all darkness. The true light is that Jesus died for us and our salvation is in the hands of Him, our God. We must believe upon Him and we are saved by grace, not by good works. It is our faith in Him that saves us and grows us spiritually.

How can true light derive from fear? It can't. Fear is used for oppression and domination.

You're essentially promoting fear and ignorance. Good luck with that.

You're essentially promoting fear and ignorance.

This isn't true. The result is actually the opposite.

It's not just secrecy. If you read their literature and get a grasp of their doctrine, it's a secular humanist religion.

Not a religion.

It is the essence of occult teaching.

Well... Not in the modern sense, but in the ancient sense, yes. Occult just means hidden or obscured teachings, and our degrees are not (in most parts of the world) public, so technically yes, but not the way you mean it.

They preach enlightened humanism and salvation by works

No preaching, no doctrine of faith, and entirely compatible with religions which do not accept either of the two items you listed.

Its very nature is Satanic, and many of their most exalted teachers have made direct reference to Lucifer as the source of their illumination.

That's absolutely untrue. You're probably relying on the Taxil Hoax.

Freemasonry is a cult

Not a cult.

I posted a link to a video which rifles through Freemasonic literature and highlights, in their own words and in-context, what they believe.

Freemasonry is a religion, teaches occult doctrine, and exalts Lucifer. These things come from their own mouths.

Are you a Freemason?

I posted a link to a video which rifles through Freemasonic literature and highlights, in their own words and in-context, what they believe.

You see, this is where you go off the rails. You want to begin with the assumption that Freemasonry has some belief system, and so when you go pouring over random scraps of books, you find it. If I convince myself that Christianity is about abusing people (as many atheists do) and I go pouring over the Bible for evidence, I'll find it. But that just demonstrates my confirmation bias, not the reality of what I wanted to discover.

It's not my confirmation bias pointing to a belief system. It's their own literature. One need only to review the material to understand this.

Sure, some people might read comments like yours and stop there, thinking "Yeah, crazy tinfoil hat stuff. Of course it's fine." Critical thinkers will assess the material and evaluate it themselves. Fortunately for us, much of their literature - kept away from the public as best they can manage - has come to light so that we may.

I'm simply stating that they themselves identify as a religion from their own sources. If anyone wants the truth they'll have to go look themselves. I provided a link for this purpose.

It's not my confirmation bias pointing to a belief system. It's their own literature. One need only to review the material to understand this.

I've read nearly every book (cover to cover, not just skimming highlights as in the video) that he mentions. I disagree. You're seeing what you want to see.

Sure, some people might read comments like yours and stop there, thinking "Yeah, crazy tinfoil hat stuff..."

Yes... yes, they might.

Critical thinkers will assess the material and evaluate it themselves.

And said critical thinkers will ask themselves: if this organization has been around for 300+ years and has no central leadership, then what kind of bizarre view of it will I get if I try to read dozens of individual works by Masonic authors as if they all refer to the same institution or even that any one of them refers to a view that, in its entirety, any other two Masons will agree on?

Heh. My Lodge is full of tattoo artists and firemen. "Elite". Heh.

I'm just a guy on Reddit. Don't worry about me.

One, I haven't been off topic AT ALL. Two, read this.

You're essentially promoting fear and ignorance.

This isn't true. The result is actually the opposite.