I'll walk with you awhile, curious stranger. We can chat for a few, and who knows where we will go. You're gonna have to earn it though.

First question - have you watched the beheading videos of James Foley, Steven Sotloff, Abdul Rahim Kassig, Herve Goudel, the Japanese Hostages, and the most recent Jordanian Immolation?

This is the most important thing.

I can't tell you how many people I know that have gotten truly emotional over those videos being released...and they haven't even seen them!

You cannot tell me what the truth is if you refuse to even look at it.

Yep. It's the first step in this Socratic Exercise. Every time.

I wouldn't even try to attempt to "tell" you the truth. My post was genuine. I am not trying to coerce anyone into an argument or incite debate. I have seen many posts from both sides, but haven't seen any really good descriptive articles that explain the flip side of the national media.

Apologies, I wasn't speaking to "you" specifically.

What I mean to say is that I will not debate what is and is not the truth with someone who refuses to expose them self to all the available information.

I agree with you. After watching the first one and hearing the following videos followed the same construction, I figured I would just be watching essentially the same video and never did.

Gore videos contain very little value.

What if they don't show the gore? ;)

This comment is precisely my point. You think you know what is on them, but you haven't seen them.

Abdul Rahim Kassig

There is a video of this? I had no idea. Was there anything funny about it?

For some reason they added that on - it was reported as Peter Kassig originally. Here's the "video."

Spoilers: it doesn't show anything...

[deleted]

I viewed the first highly publicized Foley video. Past that I haven't really had much interest in watching them. **I read previously the comments from another reply here on points as to why it's believed by many to have been staged prior to watching it and I can see the perspective.

So, if you've watched it - what else is there to discuss?

[deleted]

Ha. Yeah I see your point. It's not all about the staging thought. I want to know what views are out there as to why and how the US has backed the group.

This is a toughie to answer. Let's take a step back (I told you this would be work ;-) ha)

I have browsed a bit but the information is pretty scarce outside of this site it seems. I also don't trust to post anywhere but Reddit to be honest.

I pose you a question - if you watched the JF video and saw that it was edited and didn't show anything... Could it be possible that all videos show the same thing (ie. not showing the *action)?

I haven't watched any of the videos, not because I don't want to be in the know, but because I have a very hard time with violent imagery. I'm talking, I can't watch horror movies even though I know all the gore is fake. I have heard that the first video cuts off before the guy gets totally decapitated. Can anyone share with me what is the most suspicious thing about the videos. Again, I'm curious, but terrified to watch the videos. I'm not trying to be a pain.

It's a really tough subject to dive into - and I think that is by design.

I will spoil all the videos of the victims listed in the President's draft AUMF for escalating military engagements with ISIL:

James Foley, Steven Sotloff, Kassig, Gourdel, and the Japanese hostages, all cut out right before you actually see anything.

They really are like crappy B-movie pseudo-horror clips where the worst imagery (IMO) is in what your mind's eye inserts into it when you don't see the action.

As far as my biggest gotcha moment? In the Herve Goudel video, around ~4:22, the screen fades to black (it's when you actually would have seen the 'action'l, and for two frames, a manipulated still of a previous beheading video (James Foley's) is literally spliced into the video, Tyler Durden style.

I mean - what in the actual fuck?

Wow, I just watched the Herve Gourdel video and sure enough, at 4:22 minutes the scene fades to black and you can see a split second still of a more popularized beheading scene (ISIS guy in all black with hostage in bright orange jumpsuit). I have no idea what this means other than poor editing, but very interesting to say the least.

Thanks for watching it and powering through it.

If you freeze it and put them side-by-side, it's a still of the Foley vid.

I used to think it was a creepy psychological thing to link the two subliminally, but have settled on the Occam's Razor-esque view of "shitty post-production" work.

I don't know what's worse - that I'm still bitching about these videos 6 months later, or I remembered the timestamp of the still without looking it up.

Let me reiterate his again everybody:

The US Government just asked for a minimum 3-year pass to pursue The Islamic State with no geographical battlefield limitations, because of a few shitty propagandistic videos pushed into mainstream media thanks to the SITE Intelligence Group, a private, US company cofounded by Rita Katz, whose father was convincted and executed by Saddam for being an Israeli spy.

Sorry for yelling.

I suspect that this is a bait thread and OP has no intention of actually responding to anything. I've started to think that a lot of these types of posts, since there seem to be so many, are a way for certain people/groups to kind of get a consensus of what conspiracy researchers think or what evidence has been accrued in support of x/y/z theory. AKA a honeypot.

Oh, I'm absolutely convinced. I always jump in with Socratic method (which requires participation, not part of the assignment), and it usually dies.

Just tryin' to do my part.

Also, if you look at the SnoopSnoo it's a month old random account with activity only from 8-9 to 5...

[deleted]

The account is a month old because I made it a month ago. I spend most of my time in /r/worldnews. I come across a lot of these arguments and decided to post my question.

And that's totally fine, man. I haven't bailed on you. Have I?

The fact that you think this post is anything other than a request for information is asinine. There is no accusations, no disapproval. I'm just curious about a subject.

It's really not, if you've lurked here for any real amount of time. We get these posts every week. Sometimes legit - sometimes not. I have not accused you of anything, as we have rules about calling people the name (shill), so I rarely do. I like it here and intend on staying.

Additionally, I use reddit at work primarily (yeah, i know). I have kids and a wife. I don't get much downtime to post or read at home. I don't understand why new account = something is wrong here.

I'm the same way bud - although when the kiddo goes to sleep I can be more active. Or I have a successful dialog on r/worldnews and try and steward discussion when I get some downtime at work.

So - back to your question - what else do you need to know?

[deleted]

That's all you have to do man is jump in.

Also - I do not speak of Talking Points. Just facts.

I pose you a question!

What was the source for the Foley, Sotloff, Kassig, Goudel, Japanese Hostages, and the Jordanian Immolation videos?

[deleted]

Close.

Read this

Who do they credit with information regarding the authentication of the JF video?

[deleted]

Read. So originally placed on YouTube. That's surprising that it would hit on such a mainstream outlet.

Quickly taken down though.

However, I could see the group knowing that would likely reach the population faster than an underground file sharing post. I also can see why the US would validate the video of their own citizen's execution.

Everything in the article referencing Americans have mixed words like "believed to be authentic," in there. Then there's this:

The title of the video posted Tuesday was “A Message to America” and was produced by the Islamic State’s media arm, according to the Site Intelligence Group, which monitors extremist Web sites.

I think regardless of who verified the authenticity, there would still be the same questions due to the video contents.

Can I ask why the fact that US were the one's who validated the video plays into the opinion that they may have been responsible?

We both watched the video and agreed that what was reported did not take place in hr video. I argue that institutions that validated the video need to be looked at with scrutiny, as they are obviously not doing their job. Do you agree?

Also - who is the SITE Intelligence group that the link references? Ever heard of them?

Also, if you look at the SnoopSnoo it's a month old random account with activity only from 8-9 to 5...

You'd think if it were your job to spread BS and convince people you actually believed the things you were saying that you'd make a post or two in your downtime just to lend yourself some credibility. It's amazing how many users' comments fall in that same 9-5 timeframe.

Wow ... I don't understand the flack i'm getting. So explain how I would lend myself credibility by posting without making my first post? That's essentially like saying "you can't post here until you post here".

No, what I was saying is that there are people who are paid to post and one sign of that is when all of their posts fall in the 9-5 timeframe (when they're at work). If you aren't one of these people, and are just a curious OP, then you aren't who I was talking about - it's just that this sub gets posts like this one all the time.

Thank you for the clarification. I am a 9-5er, but only because that's the opportunity I have. I am just a curious OP. I'm surprised everyone didn't downvote the shit out of me just for the topic header from the main page. Spent most of my time in here so far defending myself. :(

Fair enough man, I don't know who you are and am not trying to attack you. Like I said, though, this post fits a known pattern on this sub, even if it is an outlier as you're saying - that's why people here are skeptical of you and your motives. It isn't for no reason.

I'm going to clarify my learning experience in the main post for everyone. I understand that point. I guess anything with conspiracy and views that go against the grain are easily subjected to trolling or other ridicule. Thanks for the heads up.

Not a problem, cheers sir or madam.

Surprise surprise - guess who wants to play?

I'm waiting on the next step.

[deleted]

Kinda funny how you didn't respond to anyone else in this thread who posed legitimate comments/questions to you but you respond to me within minutes when I question your motives...

We see posts like this on this sub all the time, and in the majority of these posts the OP either bails or doesn't show his face at all. If this doesn't apply to you, it doesn't apply to you - I was just going off of what I've seen.

[deleted]

...thread deleted. ;)

I'm a little surprised that he went through all that trouble to try to convince us he wasn't a 9-5'er only to delete the thread and pretty much confirm it. If only I had no soul, I'd make such a better shill than these amateurs.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/09/11/world/middleeast/isis-many-in-iran-believe-is-an-american-invention.html?referrer=&_r=0

Iranians believing something doesn't make it true.

Iran is crippled by conspiracy theories

While not denying the inconsistencies in the execution videos, there's a huge leap from that to the claim this is evidence America/Israel is behind ISIS. If you can get as much publicity for your cause by faking an execution, it makes perfect sense to do so. Allows you to get maximum bang for your hostage, so to speak.

Personally, I'm with the OP: this topic sparks a lot of claims, but very little evidence. Seems to me there are those parties who would benefit very nicely from promoting a false belief that the US is backing ISIS.

So what's your point?

Instead of being skeptical, try being logical and think critically.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2014/09/18/alleged-isis-photo-controversy-engulfs-sen-john-mccain/

http://countercurrentnews.com/2014/06/isis-pr-mccain/

Yes, be logical and think critically:

Try as He May, John McCain Can’t Shake Falsehoods About Ties to ISIS

McCain rips claim he posed for photo with ISIS fighters

Yes yes very skeptical of you to parrot the favorable to a war hawks position rhetoric. Do you also believe that a high profile govt official such as McCain didn't know who he was meeting with? That's his excuse. What's yours?

Did you even read the links? Who he met simply wasn't the person claimed. This is right up there with the nonsense about dead kids from Sandy Hook showing up at the Super Bowl. Independent fact-checking has found the claim wildly fallacious:

Four Pinocchios for Rand Paul’s claim that McCain met with the Islamic State

There are days when we regret we are limited to just Four Pinocchios. This is one of those days. There is zero evidence that any of the men that McCain met with in Syria are linked to the Islamic State. One can have a legitimate debate about whether it is worth arming the Syrian rebels without resorting to innuendo, fake news reports and invented facts.

So, what's your excuse for repeating this "innuendo, fake news reports and invented facts"?

My excuse is I don't believe it. That's all I need. Are we done here?

So much for "be logical and think critically"!

Having established beyond reasonable doubt there is no credible evidence linking the US to ISIS - yes, I think we are done here.

[deleted]

Weather the storm man, there are tons of Jackass's that mess with this sub.

I posted the link for you for a few reasons. It's a mainstream source so it's established and credible.

It is biased on presentation of information but it also is from non american sources.

Iran is obviously much closer to the "threat" than americans.

Iran isn't a backwater middle eastern state stuck on sharia or Wahhabi islam.

Also nobody here on this sub or alive and willing to talk has proof you're looking for. All we have is proof in our own minds based on a preponderance of evidence each of us has come across over time.

You're going to have to find your own personal proof out of all evidence presented to you.

If it were easy then the term conspiracy wouldn't be derogatory...

[deleted]

[deleted]

My short answer is this: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/01/07/everything-chuck-hagel-needs-to-know-about-the-defense-budget-in-charts/

These theories have a way of protruding into real life and zapping the joy from it. They can take over and alienate a person from friends and family ultimately dividing general populations against each other.

To prevent this I seek a concise conclusion after weighing the evidence at my disposal and move on with my life.

Unless new evidence or actions force me to either change my point of view or solidify it, I pay attention to other things I find interesting.

With that being said I believe the reason is multifaceted. It has moved past the point of just money and power to currently being about maintaining control of money and power.

The military industrial complex needs justification to continue weapon manufacturing and new weapon research.

The government is filled with less than honorable self serving morons who don't want to lose their status or public office. They aren't able to outsmart the military industrial complex and are scared of having their skeletons exposed to the public.

Banks need to justify and maintain control of currency so they partner with the military industrial complex to create problems that cost ridiculous amounts of money to solve.

The upper classes of the world know this symbiotic relationship between them serves all of them so they maintain the charade.

Intelligence agencies of the world work to provide advisable Intel and covert counter measures to keep the upper classes steps ahead of the rest of us.

This system has no strategic exit for them in their mind. They don't entertain the idea of stopping because they believe it to be a suicidal fools errand to try.

The reason we on the outside looking in can't contemplate their motivations, reasons or purposes is because we don't think like them.

On a fundamental level there's nobody to blame. They were brought up in an existing system that was good to them and cannot understand why we don't like that system.

We were brought up manipulated by said system and cannot figure out why they won't leave us be.

It's a stupid cycle and the people in the middle are like you and I. We see inconsistent patterns, illogical behavior, irrational emotions and feel that it doesn't have to be this way.

So we search for something that concretely proves or disproves our beliefs. We don't find it so we discuss it.

All the while spinning our wheels while they do the same.

This is modern life. Enjoy it or hate it, we won't get out alive either way.

That was really well said

Thank you.

This needs a post of it's own man. Great job.

Thank you.

Without trying to justify, answer the following?

Where does ISIS get arms from? Who buys their oil? Who trained their rebels? Who had Bagdadi imprisoned? Who find the videos first? Where are ISIS getting their fighters from?

[deleted]

See there's s common denominator. Every other question has been extensively reported on and I get my facts from there like everyone. For me the very existence of isis is conceivable is because it has been reported.

[deleted]

Its a global conspiracy. I think the USA is just an enforcer state now. Businesses profit. S.Arab gets more powerful

Its a global conspiracy.

How?

Its a global conspiracy.

How?

For me, the idea that this group is self funded through robbing banks and taking an oil field hostage, which is the mainstream media narrative as to how they got the resources to take over huge chunks of Syria and iraq, just seems far fetched to me.

StormCloudsGathering - The Covert Origins of ISIS [UPDATED 2.11.15]

In the article, it says 2014, but they meant 2015. They reposted it to their Facebook page on the 11th (2/11/15).

Look up the video... You know the one all over the papers. That "shows" a beheading? Look at the knife, how much damage it does(n't do)? No blood and omitting the execution scene entirely? Why would such a heinous group not show the details...

Look at the picture in the desert recently. The two men's head shadows are going in different directions...

Some links - http://rt.com/op-edge/168064-isis-terrorism-usa-cia-war

http://www.infowars.com/isis-domestic-terror-threat-created-by-cia-and-u-s-military

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/09/21/world/middleeast/suspicions-run-deep-in-iraq-that-cia-and-the-islamic-state-are-united.html

Edit: Infowars*** is auto-spammed on reddit sitewide, I've approved your comment.

The shadow thing has explanation, and it's been debunked on other websites. I think it's a mistake to focus on the backdrop. some faking this could just as easily do it outside. The fact that they don't show the actual beheading is what is most suspicious.

Ding ding ding

My short answer is this: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/01/07/everything-chuck-hagel-needs-to-know-about-the-defense-budget-in-charts/

These theories have a way of protruding into real life and zapping the joy from it. They can take over and alienate a person from friends and family ultimately dividing general populations against each other.

To prevent this I seek a concise conclusion after weighing the evidence at my disposal and move on with my life.

Unless new evidence or actions force me to either change my point of view or solidify it, I pay attention to other things I find interesting.

With that being said I believe the reason is multifaceted. It has moved past the point of just money and power to currently being about maintaining control of money and power.

The military industrial complex needs justification to continue weapon manufacturing and new weapon research.

The government is filled with less than honorable self serving morons who don't want to lose their status or public office. They aren't able to outsmart the military industrial complex and are scared of having their skeletons exposed to the public.

Banks need to justify and maintain control of currency so they partner with the military industrial complex to create problems that cost ridiculous amounts of money to solve.

The upper classes of the world know this symbiotic relationship between them serves all of them so they maintain the charade.

Intelligence agencies of the world work to provide advisable Intel and covert counter measures to keep the upper classes steps ahead of the rest of us.

This system has no strategic exit for them in their mind. They don't entertain the idea of stopping because they believe it to be a suicidal fools errand to try.

The reason we on the outside looking in can't contemplate their motivations, reasons or purposes is because we don't think like them.

On a fundamental level there's nobody to blame. They were brought up in an existing system that was good to them and cannot understand why we don't like that system.

We were brought up manipulated by said system and cannot figure out why they won't leave us be.

It's a stupid cycle and the people in the middle are like you and I. We see inconsistent patterns, illogical behavior, irrational emotions and feel that it doesn't have to be this way.

So we search for something that concretely proves or disproves our beliefs. We don't find it so we discuss it.

All the while spinning our wheels while they do the same.

This is modern life. Enjoy it or hate it, we won't get out alive either way.