I also haven't heard any actual perspectives from anti-vaccers.

Here you go, from a recent article I wrote for this site on the subject of the 'War on Science' (feel free to copy&paste this anywhere, or add more information):

The mainstream Current Conclusions of Science TM (in America, God Bless America) are that vaccines are both safe and effective. The gold standard for proving medical safety is to compare human populations with a control group over the long term. Out of the current US Vaccination schedule of 12 different vaccines (compared with just 3 in the 1980s), none of them have ever been tested against a saline control in a human population long term, either individually or as a group. If none of our drug testing included comparisons of populations given placebos, would you trust them? On the other side of the vaccine safety issue, the US Supreme Court ruled in 2011 that federal law prohibits parents from suing vaccine manufacturers over serious side effects from childhood vaccines. The only way Americans have left to defend themselves, the lawsuit, cannot be used to seek compensation from vaccine injury, and yet they want us to know that vaccines are safe? They had to create a program to handle all the numerous reports of negative side effects of vaccines (VAERS - the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System), and yet they want us arguing whether or not vaccines may lead to autism?

This is overt manipulation, and yet a review of history leaves us with the conclusion that it is effective manipulation. Populations have been whipped up with the fear of biological armageddon before, with dissidents fined and jailed for refusal of the current cure du jour. A new wave of people are publically arguing for forced mandatory vaccinations right now, because ultimately their fear trumps your liberties. The efficacy of vaccines has never actually been proven, neither has herd immunity ever been shown to exist. There are outbreaks among fully vaccinated populations. President Obama recently granted immunity to a CDC whistleblower to testify about the efficacy of vaccines to Congress. This is another clear example where the science is anything but settled, but our culture of choosing sides is moving towards a future where individuals no longer have any choice for themselves. There is a comments period open right now for the US Health and Human Services current draft proposal regarding more mandated employer-enforced vaccines for adults, at the same time that the US Government is involved with a lawsuit against Merck (the manufacturer of the MMR vaccine) about the false claims of efficacy of its vaccine.

Jenny McCarthy served as the sacrificial offering in the media, an open warning and example to anyone who would question the current narrative. The government has a monopoly on legal force, and a narrative is forming across the media that such force should be used to override our individual right to bodily integrity and self-determination. We are shown the social effects of questioning the narrative, and anyone that's even questioned the ever increasing vaccine schedule can tell you what those social effects feel like personally. There is a science, with a lowercase s, that is a method, an application, a process that is founded upon open questioning. And then there is a Science, with a capital a S, that is the Current Conclusions of Our National Experts TM, a dogma which does not allow any questioning or deviation from the herd.

We should always be questioning. The truth fears no investigation.

One of the best responses to any post. Great work

Respectfully, I disagree. I think it was concocted to cause dissention, confusion, and conflict. The argument itself is totally illogical, if you or your children are vaccinated, there should be NO FEAR of contracting some sort of communicable disease. It's kind of a no-brainer. Vaccinated people should feel safer and smarter, not in a panic they're going to run into an non-vaccinated individual.

Yeah, I am not getting that at all. The news shows continue to interview people who ARE vaccinated that fear unvaccinated people. How does that make any sense?

Cause the problem, give you the solution. Peace and safety.

PROBLEM

^{alleged measles breakout amongst immunized people, claimed to be caused by non-vaccinated people}

REACTION

^{Public frenzy is manipulated via social media to hyperinflate what could/would then be perceived as a huge upswell in vaccination support, thus changing the viewpoints of those easily manipulated}

SOLUTION

^{government implemented vaccination programs that are mandatory for both children and adults.}

BONUS!

^{pharmaceutical companies make up for the dismal flu vaccine sales missed last flu season}

oh, dude, now you're just being silly. Although, I think that I may have already mentioned the problem/solution thing going on....

Plausible? Absolutely. Possible? Maybe, but unknown as to why although the distractive capabilities would be off the charts.

I also haven't heard any actual perspectives from anti-vaccers. The main reason why I feel it's all propaganda is because it just seems like everyone's got the loudspeaker about this yelling at other people with the same ideas. Nobody seems to be disagreeing anyway..

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You answered your own question about the confusion, dissension and conflict. Cause the problem, give you the solution. They do it over and over and over. it's called a "false flag"

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It has nothing to do with profit and everything to do with doctrine, and it doesn't matter if you believe that doctrine, Bill Gates does, and he certainly doesn't need to get paid for practicing what he believes to be right. And that's a pretty blatant depopulation agenda.

So my fears are actually correct then? I just watched this video, because I had no idea Gates has a depopulation regime: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gROhNaJoGzI

How are you okay with this? Even if it's only 10-15%, I want the option to have children if I so wish, I have that right as a human being, as do my children and theirs..

Oh, I'm not "ok" with it. And I think the 10-15% is quite generous on your part. Not to sound cliche, but I went back to church.

In a lot of countries there is no profit to be had when it comes to vaccines.

SOMEONE is making money off of them. It's human nature.

if you or your children are vaccinated, there should be NO FEAR of contracting some sort of communicable disease.

Vaccines aren't 100% They're generally between 85% to 95% effective. So if you're heaving up a lung, i'll still keep distance.

And what about all the law suits claiming serious physical damage or death? what about the mercury? what about the human dna they're putting in them? Whose is it? Were they healthy? Will it change yours?

And what about all the law suits claiming serious physical damage or death?

What about them? Do you have any specific one you'd like to refer to?

what about the mercury?

What about it? I eat canned tuna - That has mercury in it.

what about the human dna they're putting in them?

Is there some particular thing you're going to end up linking to? We ingest other people's bodily fluids when we have sex, is a bit of DNA really that high on your list of concerns?

Whose is it? Were they healthy?

If the vaccine works within acceptable or expected parameters, does that really matter?

Will it change yours?

Change my what? My DNA? Will it?

Dude, take the shots. I don't care.

Then why did you ask?

If you haven't already run across the fuckery they're playing with vaccines reading r/conspiracy I'm not going to google all those topics for you. Take the shots, live long and prosper.

This makes no sense.

It is not a secret that many vaccines are not 100% effective. It is also no secret that some people cannot receive the vaccine for various reasons (allergies etc.)

Scientists have studied the spread of these diseases, and it is accepted that higher percentages of protected people can reduce the risk that the unprotected will contract the disease. This concept is known as herd immunity. Basically, a protected community allows less avenues for the virus to spread and survive, reducing risk of exposure to those who cannot receive the vaccine.

This is why there is a push against anti-vaxxers on this site. It is because refusing to vaccinate for poor reasons is a selfish act. By refusing to be part of the solution to these diseases, you willingly become part of the problem, and a potential avenue to spread diseases which can take lives.

There are possible side effects to some vaccines, a point which is often brought up by antivaxxers to justify their refusal, but in reality the chance of these occurring is astronomically low. Given the personal and societal rewards associated with vaccinations, the tiny, tiny risk is outweighed by the extremely important reward.

Smallpox, a disease which wiped out civilizations, no longer exists due to vaccinations. Polio is all but extinct. Plenty of other diseases have been reduced to the point of irrelevance. Vaccines could be the most important development in the history of public health.

ok. take the shots. your priests know what's best for you.

What a childish response. You realize that the information I relayed to you is uniformly supported by the scientific community right? You know, those people that test theories and come to conclusions based on observable evidence? And all of those relevant scientists agree that the vaccines provided to the population are safe, effective and important.

Do you have anything to say to my actual points in my previous posts?

Yes, absolutely. They have only your best interest at heart. They want to you live long and healthy. Take the shots.

The thing about scientific evidence is that I don't need to put my faith in anything. I can look at the proof in plain english.

So your childish attempt to imply that I am too trusting or gullible really only demonstrates just how unable or unwilling you are to understand basic scientific concept.

take the shot

whose dna are they putting in these? will it effect yours?

So, now that you've given up arguing against conventional vaccines (if you can call what you've done in this thread arguing) you've decided to fear monger about experimental vaccines that have not been used on a public scale.

What do you even think you are trying to prove?

I'm not trying to prove anything, TAKE THE SHOT!

I have. You should too.

why? because you think it's safe? because you demand to know why I have the opinion that I do and then you call me a fear monger? Why should I trust those people? cuz you do? You have nothing to worry about from me, your priests have told you you're safe.

I am not asking you to trust people. I am asking you to understand and support the scientific method and the conclusions that it has reached.

Individual scientists are corruptible. Look at Andrew Wakefield. The scientific method, which relies not on individual studies but on the common conclusions reached through multiple studies, all peer reviewed and confirmed by experts in the relevant fields, is far more difficult to corrupt. Combine this with the fact that most of the vaccines used today have been around for decades (allowing for further large scale studies) and have been demonstrated to be extremely safe and effective. The effect vaccines have had on preventable dangerous diseases cannot be overstated.

Seriously, it sounds like you haven't read shit about this issue aside from whatever Natural News (or similar sites) told you to think. Educate yourself and before long you'll be getting vaccinated yourself.

I'm a nurse. I've seen the medical industry from the inside. You take the shot.

A nurse! Wow that totally makes you qualified to assess the safety or effectiveness of vaccines. You weren't even familiar with the concept of herd immunity.

Your apparent assertion that "corporations bad, therefore all science is wrong" is ridiculous.

If you truly are a nurse, a sincerely hope you don't expose your views to your patients. In fact, if you are unvaccinated, I wonder if you should even be allowed to work with patients. God forbid you infect them with something harmful as a result of your inability to understand the importance of vaccinations.

Honestly, if I knew you in person and was exposed to your views, I'd be tempted to notify your employer.

just take the shot. it'll be fine.

Better than fine probably. I will be doing my part to help protect my fellow human beings by being a part of one of the most successful public health efforts in human history. Millions of lives are saved every year from vaccinations, and I am happy I can be part of that.

Meanwhile, you'll be a potential carrier of dangerous but preventable diseases, likely working among some of the most vulnerable members of society. The more I think about it, the more disgusting that concept is to me. You could get someone very sick, or even killed.

Wow. You've assumed an awful lot about me, but since I'm the only one who thinks there's something nefarious going on in the medical INDUSTRY, people are probably safe.

I already explained to you why the logic of "corporations bad, therefore science is wrong" is so goddamned stupid. The industry is vulnerable to corruption, but when all of the scientific evidence supports their use, the "evils" of "big pharma" tend to be irrelevant. What do you think resulted in all of those diseases being reduced significantly or eradicated right around the time their respective vaccines were introduced?

The assumptions that I made were based on your stated occupation and the fact that nurses often work closely with the vulnerable in society (the sick, the elderly and infants). If that doesn't apply to you, thank god, the risk of your stupidity and paranoia causing harm to someone is reduced.

Educate yourself, learn why vaccination is important and stop putting yourself and other people at risk.

TAKE THE SHOT!!! You can completely trust them. They would NEVER experiment on you. They have your best interest at heart.

Define "they"

Trustworthy science!! Fox News, an independent source, tells me that it's fine. You know what's in that syringe, right? Sign the consent form and take the shot. CUZ YOU KNOW WHAT'S IN THAT SYRINGE, RIGHT? or do you? You know what lab it came from? Is it a vaccination or an inoculation? What's the difference? Was it stored properly? How old is it? Just sign the consent form and take the shot.

I can't believe you are this ignorant. Like, I literally can't believe it. Are you a troll? Is this some kind of joke? I honestly can't believe someone, much less a person who claims to be a nurse, is so incapable of critical thought. For now, I'll assume it's not, but this will be my last comment either way. I've tried to explain this to you, if you don't want to listen I'll just have to accept that and hope your views get you fired from your nursing job before you can hurt someone.

Have you read a single scientific article? Because yes, I do know what is in that syringe. Because I bothered to educate myself.

I understand it is easier for you to characterize those who disagree with you as Fox News loving, overly trusting ignorant sheeple. But there is a reason the entire scientific community supports vaccination. If you want to deny it, you are welcome to, but just be aware that most responsible adults will regard you as an ignorant, selfish individual as a result.

Have a good day, hopefully your employer finds out about your views soon!

I'm sorry you have no idea what's in that syringe. I'm sorry you never thought to ask if it was stored properly, who made it, or what it was made from. You got lucky this time, maybe next time you'll ask those questions instead of blindly trusting an establishment that has an agenda you are unaware of.

God damn you are a thick one.

Try not to infect anyone at work! Wouldn't want any blood on your hands.

Edit: of course I can't be 100% sure that proper precautions have been taken with each individual vaccine. In that sense I have to trust the doctor who administers it. Considering the lack of issues that arise in administering vaccines, the risk I take is minimal.

I could make an identical argument regarding something like food, of course. How do you know your lunch at subway wasn't injected with rat poison earlier that day, or spit in by someone with the flu? A certain amount of trust goes into everything. It's a necessary byproduct of living in a world with other people.

Dude, it's not SCIENCE, its called informed consent.

I wonder if your patients have a right to be informed about your increased likelihood of carrying infectious diseases. Would they consent to you working with them?

And if my patients have infectious diseases because they took a vaccine they weren't informed about and I'm perfectly healthy? You know there's no vaccine for mrsa, right? You already know there are bugs out there that are resistant, right? You realize I'm in more danger than any patient, right? Of course you do, you know everything about me. Please, feel free to feel sorry about everyone around me while I make sure they have proper care.

You are potentially exposing your patients to deadly diseases. You are knowingly doing this.

There is no evidence to suggest infectious diseases are being spread by vaccines as a whole. Could a case involving a mistake with preparation arise on a limited scale? Possibly. Is that a reason to avoid them altogether? Fuck No.

This is it, I will no longer respond. The fact that you are willing to risk exposing vulnerable individuals to preventable diseases is disgusting. Given this, I don't know how you could be qualified to provide what you call "proper care".

In fact, I'm surprised you are legally allowed to be a nurse if you aren't vaccinated.

Educate yourself or find a new job, I beg you.

I follow all the rules and regulations in accordance with my profession. I am not obligated to get a flu shot. You're acting like I'm some sort of typhoid mary going to work with open, oozing sores. Quit making assumptions about me. Quit insulting me. Educate your own self about what precautions are taken by medical professionals to keep infections from spreading from patient to patient. You obviously are much more verbose than you are knowledgeable.

You are a medical professional who doesn't understand the concept or importance of herd immunity, as demonstrated by your first comment here.

So maybe accusing people of not being knowledgeable is one of those "glass houses" situations.

I actually will take the opportunity now to apologize for some of my statements in this conversation. While I stand by my view that your lack knowledge of the importance and effectiveness of vaccines and that your insistence on avoiding vaccinations, is irresponsible given your line of work, I do not wish you to be fired from your place of employment. I also regret implying that you were an immediate threat to the safety of your patients, if that is how I came across. I meant to express that there is a greater potential of you carrying and hurting your patients if you are not protected yourself. The odds are low that you may cause harm, but they are still increased.

I will admit to becoming emotional in this conversation (although your condescending and sarcastic tone in your responses didn't help). It scares me to think that there are caretakers and nurses capable of spreading diseases like measles in a hospital or doctors setting, given the likelihood of exposure to weakened or younger individuals.

I genuinely hope you take the steps necessary to learn the unnecessary risks you are putting on yourself and your patients.

I meant most if what I said, but looking back, I wanted to correct what I felt was me letting my emotions get in the way and allow me to say things I didn't mean.

Have a good one.

You're still making the mistake between inoculations and vaccinations. I have been inoculated. I am neither a danger to any of my patients, nor any children. Again, I urge you to exercise the option of informed consent before you lose that right.

The terms are often interchanged (in a general context, not likely in a medical environment). This is an issue with the casual platform in which were are debating, as we did not agree on any sort of terms Or definitions. I am relieved to hear that you have been inoculated. Given our conversation though, would I be wrong in assuming that you don't support people receiving things like the MMR vaccine etc.? If so, I hope you don't attempt to influence your patients.

As for your comment regarding informed consent... I got informed about the risks and importance of vaccinations and then chose to consent to receiving them. I believe that this is by far the most responsible option for both my own safety, as well as the safety of others. The entire relevant scientific community agrees with this statement, as far as my research can tell.

Edit: also, can we end this shit now, its friday and this has gone on way too long. I've tried to extract myself from this convo multiple times now and keep failing to adhere to my word.

Not who you were arguing with, but I've read the entire comment thread and there's still something that hasn't quite clicked with you. The risks and rates of risk of vaccines are commonly known, I even knew them as a child. That is not what is being discussed in this thread, user_defined never once disputed the scientific evidence of the success of vaccines. The only one who brought that up was you. Before recently I was also happy to take the known risks to receive vaccines. Like you, I was proud to be a part of this scientific movement.

But that is not what we are talking about.

We are talking about a potential massive outbreak of a viral disease that is hyped up by the media (much like ebola was), specifically to fear-monger people into getting vaccines (and with all the propaganda recently, plus religiously scientific people like yourself, it'll be a near 95% catch in the modern world). Vaccines which may have very likely been compromised purposefully to cause sterilization in a certain amount of the population. Observe. You need to understand that while there is the scientific method, it is still an industry that relies heavily on funding, and is prone to corruption to further someone else's agenda. For your own good, do not blindly believe in anything, even if it is science.

Just thirty minutes after receiving shots in Army basic training reception I began to feel incredibly ill. I then began to bleed from my sinus and was fucked up for days. Those same symptoms kept coming back at first once a month, then every two months, six months, etc. I have no idea what I received but it demonstrated to me without a doubt that at least some vaccine programs can be very harmful to my health. I tend to have an over-active immune system and a very high energy level for peak performance and its possible that the chemicals in the vaccines to stimulate immunity are particularly incompatible with my biology. I'd wager that vaccines fucked me up as a baby but that my parents were too ignorant and inattentive to put it together.

The thing with absolutist propaganda like that is, it has only two effects:

1) It serves to reinforce the belief of most people who already believe it to keep believing it

2) It triggers a "WTF" response in some of the people who already believe it, and they start doing research

In the end, it backfires to at least a small degree.

I fear that there will be a massive outbreak of a highly contagious viral disease in the next 1-2 years

Based on what?

it will cause mass sterilisation or worse, in ~90% of people

Can it be the uninformed 90%, please?

but that may just be me being paranoid and distrustful

Distinct possibility.

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Uninformed being the anti-vaccers?

Your assumption, not my statement.

"The Uninformed", as I meant it, consists of the individuals who don't educate themselves (regardless of topic) and choose to disbelieve or dismiss evidence because it is inconvenient to their beliefs, pre-conceived notions, biases, indoctrination, etc.

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And so you refer to those who are for the most part not self-aware.

Not at all. People can be self-aware without being informed. Just about every person with an IQ over 40 or whatever the boundary is, is self-aware. That doesn't mean they know anything of consequence.

But, yeah, the rest of what you said is true. Get that superstition going. Get them to believe that their opinion is just as valid as fact because, hell, they can vote just like the PhD candidate can, right? Then you have them right in the palm of your hand.

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Self-awareness is the capacity for introspection and the ability to recognize oneself as an individual separate from the environment and other individuals.

When communicating, it's important to use clear terms with succinct definitions.

I fear that there will be a massive outbreak of a highly contagious viral disease in the next 1-2 years, but it will cause mass sterilisation or worse, in ~90% of people, but that may just be me being paranoid and distrustful.

I don't see this as paranoid at all. In fact I'm quite confident the "outbreak" will be intentional.

Better than fine probably. I will be doing my part to help protect my fellow human beings by being a part of one of the most successful public health efforts in human history. Millions of lives are saved every year from vaccinations, and I am happy I can be part of that.

Meanwhile, you'll be a potential carrier of dangerous but preventable diseases, likely working among some of the most vulnerable members of society. The more I think about it, the more disgusting that concept is to me. You could get someone very sick, or even killed.

You are potentially exposing your patients to deadly diseases. You are knowingly doing this.

There is no evidence to suggest infectious diseases are being spread by vaccines as a whole. Could a case involving a mistake with preparation arise on a limited scale? Possibly. Is that a reason to avoid them altogether? Fuck No.

This is it, I will no longer respond. The fact that you are willing to risk exposing vulnerable individuals to preventable diseases is disgusting. Given this, I don't know how you could be qualified to provide what you call "proper care".

In fact, I'm surprised you are legally allowed to be a nurse if you aren't vaccinated.

Educate yourself or find a new job, I beg you.