Me and my wife debated it for a while. In the end we decided that as aware and smart individuals we need to raise a kid. She's currently pregnant. We all need to stay optimistic and be agents of positive change around us.. It's the only way to be for a better future. :)

Make a clan my friend.

Respect!

Good luck to you and your family-to-be. I hope you have many healthy children! The world should be full of people like you and your wife, and the defeatists should be allowed to jump from any bridge they choose.

What a nasty thing to say.

Telling people that having children is "selfish and irresponsible" is a nasty thing to say. Choose a bridge...please.

You'd be the first one to go to the Department of Transitional Assistance to get a monthly check and food stamps to support your kids. Or you'd be the first one to bitch about those who do.

What a dumb thing to say. I'm white. I don't go looking for handouts, I go to work and I pay my bills, and then I pay my taxes which goes to support the degenerates you mention. Some of my taxes may also go towards helping people with mental illnesses like yourself. It's my pleasure to help someone in need...

I'm white. I don't go looking for handouts,

what does being white have to do with looking for handouts

Learning what I've learned makes me more inclined to have kids, not less. Somebody needs to fight this madness.

Well said. Make a family, raise them right. Teach them to fight. If any of our ancestors gave up in the face of opposition we wouldn't be here today.

My thoughts exactly.

That is the same attitude that inspires racists, jingoists, evangelists, etc. to produce more kids... "Somebody's gotta save this rotten world!"

If you do this as a parent, you are trying to create a bundle-of-meat-and-brains that will have the ability and inclination to fight for the things/changes that you want from this world. Without asking them first.

It's a terrible reason to have a child.

You wanna fight for something? Do it yourself. You wanna convince other people to fight on your side? I'm right there with you, let's shed some light, work the channels of communication, and enlist thousands or millions to do it with us.

You wanna create a new person so you can try to enlist them in this without them ever getting a chance to choose?? Selfish!

You might have a kid who wants to be a regular US army general. Or a Wall Street banker. Or maybe just hates fighting and you'd bring him/her into a tortuous life.

Have we not seen enough unhappiness, in our own culture and among our friends, due to parents applying too much pressure to kids to be some way, reach some goal, earn more, marry someone the parents approve of, be a doctor or a lawyer or a scientist, go to church, be "good".

We all know people who got fucked up by their parents trying to live vicariously through them, and having a kid that you have expectations of fightin' Tha Man, or revolting against the gov't is no different.

"Your children are not your children, they are the children of life's longing for itself". -Kahlil Gibran

I appreciate your input.

That is the same attitude that inspires racists, jingoists, evangelists, etc. to produce more kids... "Somebody's gotta save this rotten world!"

So what! If what you say is true, then racists, jingoists, evangelists, etc (pretty inclusive "etc.") will have a fitness advantage against those trying to maintain some sense of moral purity by not "brainwashing" their children.

There are ways to inculcate moral values that are not coercive, for instance, developing and displaying your character in the world. There are few things that FORCE the issue of character like having a family and children. You know all those sacrifices your parents made for you that have demonstrated the values that you probably hold dear? They probably wouldn't have happened without you to bring that aspect out of your parents' characters. Left to our own devices, we rarely put ourselves into positions that require that we define ourselves against the world. As such, many have nothing but air (language) to signify their moral/ethical position.

We all know people who got fucked up by their parents trying to live vicariously through them, and having a kid that you have expectations of fightin' Tha Man, or revolting against the gov't is no different.

And I know vastly more people that happily adopt the positions of their parents as a consequence of seeing their parents decisions in action. At 32, the past decade has been a reflection on how bizarrely correct my parents actions have been. This is not due to a strict disciplinarian upbringing, far from it. It is a realization that I am a reflexive individual and that my parents' actions have shaped me.

"Your children are not your children, they are the children of life's longing for itself". -Kahlil Gibran

I'll always agree with Gibran.

You seem unsure about the degree of calamity we face. These are the only 2 options for the hypothetical child of /u/LetsHackReality: Victory over an obvious evil or destruction at the hands of that evil. These are the only 2 options any human has. If his hypothetical child chooses to "avoid" facing the reality of an evil and oppressive global regime, the child therefore IS choosing the destruction of you, me, and every living being. Please believe, you are living through an action movie, a mystery novel, and a religious text all mixed into one spectacular shitstorm. There is no 3rd option.

It really is pretty damn crazy...

False dichotomies are false. I'm living through a renaissance. My child will be living in a world that I can't imagine. He/she will be a frontiersman on a frontier I can't even perceive.

My child will be living in a world that I can't imagine.

Do you think the world has a positive future?

It's hard to disagree with something as meaningless as whatever you just said, but... I disagree.

I imagine there are a lot of concepts you are unable to understand. I am not surprised that even without understanding you form opinions.

I understood it to have no meaning.

Renaissance

subjective

world i can't imagine

not actually saying or describing anything

frontier I can't even perceive

not actually saying or describing anything

you didn't say anything

renaissance - from Old French renaissance, literally "rebirth," usually in a spiritual sense, from renastre "grow anew" (of plants), "be reborn" (Modern French renaître), from Vulgar Latin *renascere, from Latin renasci "be born again, rise again, reappear, be renewed," from re- "again" (see re-) + nasci "be born" (Old Latin gnasci; see genus).

»world i can't imagine not actually saying or describing anything

Right, cant describe what cannot be imagined. Would your great-grandparents have been able to augur what the modern world would look like? How correct would they have been?

I know what it means... again... subjective

Yes. My grandparents statement would be meaningless. I would not attach any meaning or significance to their words. Like right now.

edit: also... great-grandparents would imply three (3) generations passing. Your original premise was predicting your children's world.

I know what it means... again... subjective

Do you know what subjective means?

Yes. My grandparents statement would be meaningless. I would not attach any meaning or significance to their words.

I guess not, lol!

I imagine there are a lot of concepts you are unable to understand.

Ad Hominem

I am not surprised that even without understanding you form opinions.

Ad Hominem

Do you know what subjective means?

Ad Hominem

Are you sure you want to go on? You seem upset. I'm sorry if you've become upset. Please understand that it was not my subjective intent to upset you, although it may have appeared that way, objectively.

I imagine there are a lot of concepts you are unable to understand. Ad Hominem

Fact

I am not surprised that even without understanding you form opinions. Ad Hominem

Fact

Do you know what subjective means? Ad Hominem

Inquiry, answered inductively. I'm happy to go on if you'd like to demonstrate your ignorance further. Every straight needs a foil.

So the "straight" guy is the one who goes to insults first? Hmmm. I think maybe you just need attention.

So the "straight" guy is the one who goes to insults first?

When the bit calls for it he does.

I think maybe you just need attention.

You're giving me plenty.

when the bit calls for it

subjective

Indeed

Unfortunately that is the problem. That's the same thought process 99% of humans have(it's engineered into us pretty hard). It's great in theory, but elitism doesn't work if everybody does it. Everybody is making kids to grow up and fight other people's kids. I'd love to have kids. And consume tons of resources, because I'm awesome, and my genetics are awesome, and i'm an awesome father, who would teach them awesome things so they would be awesome people(WAYYY better than your kids, and way better at fighting evil). But it just seems a little too transparent for me. It's selfish goals that make children. Selfish because you consider them a part of you. You want them(by extension you) to have more(and thus everybody else less). It's fine when resources are plentiful(and was helpful through 99% of humanity), but not so much now, because a wise man once said "I looked at my kingdom I was finally there To sit on my throne as the Prince of Bel Air".

[deleted]

It's an option.

There's enough resources to go around. That's part of the problem.

You want to make a difference? Kill yourself so people who want to live can live.

Your comments are hostile, negative and don't show effort to put thought into this discussion.

Hostile, yes. I hate defeatists. Negative? Nope, I am actually fighting against negative opinions in this thread. Effort? Ha, I can tangle with you miserable suicides-waiting-to-happen while I am half asleep. You're barely alive yourself lady! Give up! All hope is lost!

I forgot about you. Another very good reason not to have kids is to prevent any potential life having to endure people like you. You don't even have the insight to realize your comments belie your claim to be fighting negativity. Your are hostile and aggressive, and if anyone has no hope it's you. You really don't know what you're missing.

I have a son. He's awesome. You're wrong.

Your comment has absolutely nothing to do with what I said. You don't listen. You're too intent on putting out your own bullshit.

I'm not going to have an intelligent discussion with someone who calls themselves "miss ding dong". You are beneath me in every way. Be gone peasant.

What universe do you dwell in? Surely you aren't serious? I know you! You come from a long line of peasants! Go eat a handful of pickled grass!

I can not morally agree with having children in the current state of the world.

It is only a matter of time untill we as a species have bleed the world die. We are spewing pollution in the air, and cutting down the forests that filter it.

We as a species have the fundamental problem of not looking at the future. We rely so heavily on oil that we drill in places like deep seas where when something goes wrong we cant even fix it. No matter how much oil gets poured into the ocean, no one is going to change. It will spark an ecological debate for awhile until it all blows over.

Same with nuclear power plants, relying so heavily on something that has the potential for such devistaton. Chernobyl should have been a wake up call, but no we didnt change, now we have fukushima filling up our oceans with radiation.

Climate change is a huge problem, but they took the issue and monetized it like everything else greedy people do. "Use these light bulbs to save the environment" "buy these carbon offsets so we can keep polluting."

We are destroying our home. The one place in the entire universe we can call ours, and yet we use the excuse "Well we will probably be on another planet when this one kicks the bucket" like the same thing isn't going to happen on that one.

When earth finally takes its last breath its not going to be just the human race that is extinct, it will be the extinction of the trillions of life forms that call this planet home. And for what? So that we can sit on our asses and rot our minds infront of tv, after we get home from the jobs that make this fucked up system run. That is unacceptable.

Blah, blah, blah, blah. You get the world you think is coming. Yours is going to be a blasted cinder. You'll have no connection to it; no incentive to resist its demise; no incentive to preserve it; ripe for harvest.

When earth finally takes its last breath its not going to be just the human race that is extinct, it will be the extinction of the trillions of life forms that call this planet home.

And you won't have done a thing to counter it.

But what the hell can we do about it? Every one I talk to about these things calls me crazy. We are a minority in the world and we have no power. There's nothing we can do

Not with that attitude, my friend.

So what can we do? Build a farm on some unclaimed plot of land and try to live off the land ? Fight our government? Write books and hope the right people read them? It's too late to do anything. If our government decides you're a threat you get sent to a black site. If you try to sufficiently arm yourself you become a threat to national security. Aside from a full scale national riot I don't see change. And I don't mean holding hands and singing Kumbaya. I mean rioting. The only way to stop the system is to break it.

You've answered your own question. Break the system.

Right, the only way to stop a violent system is more violence. Brilliant. But I'll tell you this, "we" can't do anything. The question is what can YOU do about it. Ask that question and you'll at least get actionable answers.

Ok that makes sense. What can I do about it?

Develop your character. Are there transgressions that will not stand? What are you going to do about them? Are there parts of civilization/world order that you celebrate? How are you going to develop them? I'm serious. "We" doesn't exist. There is no we. There is I. There is you. You will be affected by forces that do not effect me and vice versa. So asking "What can I do about it?" to me is foolish. Ask yourself that question and act on the answers you come up with.

Thanks for actually giving an answer mate. A lot of these things seem doable

You're welcome. Darkest before the dawn and all!

Another message detailing how powerless "we" are. How edgy.

There's nothing you can do because you are a weakling. Don't include people like me in your cowardly bullshit. Go hide in your cell and stay out of my way.

Oh my

The planet will be better off without you. Kill yourself.

What edgyness

You'd know.

Procreation is not limited to 3rd dimensional "reality"...we give birth in different ways all the time. However, brave are the souls that choose to incarnate at this time!....pray for them! !!!

I agree! This song makes me glad to be incarnated, and makes me want to father as many little vikings as I can!

Well, you kinda hit the crux of the debate there.

In that viewpoint, a new baby represents an entity who wants to "become".

But people here are clearly not of that viewpoint. They feel they would be making the choice and, kind of, forcing that choice on the new human.

Some feel this way because they look at the world around them and their current lives and see it as more negative than positive. Their parents "made them be" and they don't wanna pass it on.

In that viewpoint, a new baby represents an entity who wants to "become"... But people here are clearly not of that viewpoint

Some people are of that viewpoint. I am trying to speak up in this thread in order to show exactly that.

I understand that completely, and support their choice. I just honor those(souls) who have chosen to be here at this time as a young child or baby. They have alot of karmic cleanup to do from the rest of us....

I know my own brother is refusing to have children because of the dark future we're likely about to go through.

Your brother is a coward.

No, he definitely is not. You don't know what you're talking about. His children would carry a genetic problem- and if the world were shaken they probably wouldn't survive. It's a smart and loving choice. So shut your dumb fucking mouth.

Read your original post, you did not allude to any genetic condition, you said your brother is a pussy who is afraid of the dark future. Now you're making excuses. Coward.

He's not scared for himself, he doesn't want to bring in children who could be killed because of Marfan syndrome. Now, I know there is no real point to arguing on the internet, but it's clear at this point that you have no dick to speak of, or brains. Please isolate yourself from society so you don't spread your dickbag tendencies

What if your parents had followed the same line of reasoning about you and your brother?

We don't have the genetic condition. His offspring would be getting it from his wife.

Then what if her parents made that choice?

Then he'd have found a different bride? The world has enough people, it's not like it'd be a huge significant change in the grand scheme of things. The world is overpopulated- I think it'll be okay if just one person decides not to have a family. And why the hell do you people care anyway? It's my brother's choice, so shut the fuck up about it. goddamn.

Then he'd have found a different bride?

Are people interchangeable?

it's not like it'd be a huge significant change in the grand scheme of things.

It would be to her. She wouldn't be here. That's about the greatest magnitude of change an individual can conceive, to exist or not to exist.

And why the hell do you people care anyway?

I care because I am tired of the negativity that comes with r/conspiracy. In general, the mood here is that people are the problem, don't breed, world is burning, blah blah, blah. I'm sick of it. Anybody that presents an anti-life argument should be addressed.

Maybe it won't change your mind, but people reading the thread may come to a different conclusion than they otherwise would have. If you did not want your brother's decision challenged, then maybe you should not have shared it on a public forum. But you did, so now we can discuss it.

I care because I am tired of the negativity that comes with r/conspiracy. In general, the mood here is that people are the problem, don't breed, world is burning, blah blah, blah. I'm sick of it. Anybody that presents an anti-life argument should be addressed.

This! This is why I am so fired up about this topic. Leave your negativity and defeatist bullshit at the door. This subreddit needs warriors not worriers.

No, people aren't interchangeable, but he wouldn't know about her if she never existed- so it's a moot point. And this isn't anti-life, I'm not encouraging murder. My brother just chose to not have children because their lives would be difficult, and in extreme circumstances, they would die without being able to put up a fight. And they would die painfully. I think he made the very best choice he could have.

No, people aren't interchangeable, but he wouldn't know about her if she never existed- so it's a moot point

It isn't a moot point, it reflects a significant change in the lives of everybody that knows your brother's wife, your brother, you, now me, and on and on and on. This is how every life becomes sacred. It echoes and ripples across lives it isn't even aware of!

And this isn't anti-life, I'm not encouraging murder.

It is an anti-life argument because it concludes that some lives are worth living, and others are not. Please don't get me wrong. There are many reasons to not have children. Your brother and his wife are entirely justified in their decision no matter what that decision is. But to claim that the decision is based on accurate reasoning is faulty.

My brother just chose to not have children because their lives would be difficult, and in extreme circumstances, they would die without being able to put up a figh

All lives are difficult and there will always be circumstances that can overwhelm even the hardiest creatures. That method of determination applies to literally every child that has ever been born. This is what I mean "based on faulty reasoning."

If we weren't aware of it- we wouldn't be aware of it. So it doesn't make a goddamn difference. Again, this is a waste of time- you aren't making any points that are worth debating. It's all empty reasoning that won't make the slightest difference to anyone except for the time we are losing.

If we weren't aware of it- we wouldn't be aware of it.

Which isn't what is at discussion. Your statement:

it's not like it'd be a huge significant change in the grand scheme of things

Is countered by my statement:

...it reflects a significant change in the lives of everybody that knows your brother's wife...

Haha... you are pathetic.

I'm an MMA fighter with a journeyman's in electrical engineering. I can bench more, fight harder and outwit you any day. You don't know shit, you pathetic scum

Look at all the external trappings you use to claim character. Nothing that you posted indicates you are a worthy individual. Why were those the laurels you chose to rest upon?

Strength, dedication and intelligence? Those aren't external. Is there anyone who instigates arguments online that has a brain?

I'm an MMA fighter with a journeyman's in electrical engineering. I can bench more, fight harder and outwit you any day.

External trappings.

Strength, dedication and intelligence

Temporal qualities.

Where are you in the above list?

The MMA fighting requires strength and dedication. Those are more than just attributes- they are a big part of character. Use your head. Electrical engineering takes brains. Still a part of character. Arguing on the internet is such a useless activity. You aren't making any points at all, and only wasting both of our time.

Jiddu Krishnamurti

Arguing on the internet is such a useless activity.

Why is arguing on the internet useless, but fighting in a ring noble? Doesn't internet debate encourage consideration of alternate points of view? Can't it encourage research skills? Rhetoric? The ability to cogently and persuasively present an argument?

You're right, it is useless, but that is exactly what I am indicating. Strength, dedication, intelligence, their physical manifestations, all of that, temporal qualities that do not reflect the character of the individual presenting them. Why do you perceive these traits to be valuable? What is it about you that states that one action is worthy, while one is unworthy?

Keep in mind you are debating philosophy with a guy that wears TAP-OUT clothing.

Only the seeker finds the diamond in the rough. I think I just made that up.

Right, because I just hang my dedication off my chest on a chain. Dedication is most definitely not a temporal quality. Strength is a part of character, so is intelligence, and dedication. When strength training, you need discipline and commitment. When studying, you need much of the same. These characteristics aren't only manifested on the outside. Develop them, and you'll know what I mean

Dedication is most definitely not a temporal quality

Do you think you'll be able to be as dedicated to any endeavor as you are now when you are elderly? The same goes for intelligence and strength. That is transient. That is temporal. If you hang your hat on that post, your hat will be gone before you leave the room.

These characteristics aren't only manifested on the outside

The entity transcends inside/outside dichotomy as it develops and expresses its character. But the internal/external qualities it expresses are not the entity. That Krishnamurti video is worth a look. I'm not being flippant.

Wow...you are unusually insecure for such an accomplished person.

You're attacking my character without knowing a thing about me- of course I'll prove you wrong. God, grow a brain you fucking idiot

I'm not attacking your character, I am reminding you that you have none.

This has definitely crossed my mind and have been leaning more towards not having one lately. But like LordMeowMeow says we should be optimistic, i think there is positive change going on and honestly it seems like the world shouldve ended long ago...we might make it through this

ITT: Cowards with no respect for their ancestors.

You think your ancestors had it easy you selfish cowards? If they decided to not have children because they were scared of the future, none of you weaklings would be here! It is your duty to those who gave birth to you, to continue the bloodline. Your children's children may have more courage and heart than you, and my children's children will need allies if it gets worse in the future.

And what's the ultimate goal for your bloodline mein fuhrer? I suspect we're all alive because our ancestors adapted and because they didn't have condoms. Oh yeah, and because some of them were probably rapists.

Wanting to protect my family's place on this planet makes me a Nazi? That's fucking stupid. Just because you live a hollow existence, with no goals beyond your own life, it doesn't mean the rest of us need to be fools as well. I have no doubts that your ancestors were probably rapists though... good point.

Yeah.. You're talk of bloodlines and your aggressive tone make you sound a lot like a Nazi. Calling out strangers as cowards because they don't want to make the same automatic decisions you've made is pathetic. You're obviously overcompensating for some major insecurities. I hope you tone that it down and drop the ego trip for the sake of your kids if you're seriously planning on raising another person.

Our ancestors didn't have children out of a lack of fear.

They simply did what millions of generations of ancestors did before them: fuck and reproduce, coz it's what you're "supposed" to do.

As we become more aware, as a world culture and as individuals, other avenues of existence open up to us.

I think the non-child-producing path is utterly sane, given the way the world is and where it's going.

If you wanna set aside your fear and take up arms, you have that choice.

But thrusting that choice upon someone else (your offspring) is like putting a gun in someone's hands who didn't ask for it. On some deep level it is akin to what our militarized culture does with young destitute men, sending them off to war without a real choice.

You are a slave. Your descendants will be slaves. I have no respect for people who think like you do... your ancestors would be ashamed that their bloodline has come down to you in the end... All of their efforts wasted because they gave birth to a coward and a weakling who thinks it is unfair to fight for what you want in life. Do your ancestors a small favor dude... go out and have unprotected sex with a bunch of women, and hopefully one of them will pass on your good traits to a child who will grow up to be a better person than you... then you can get it over with and kill yourself. Escape this horrible planet, and your pathetic existence. Your life is not worth a damn thing.

I think the non-child-producing path is utterly sane

It is.

given the way the world is and where it's going

But not because of that reason. The "world" is always on the brink of destruction. Destruction and rebirth. If your reason is accepted without criticism, no one would have children.

If you wanna set aside your fear and take up arms

What if you want to set aside your fear and create a full life in this world? A full life that includes family and a desire for continuation.

But thrusting that choice upon someone else (your offspring) is like putting a gun in someone's hands who didn't ask for it.

People in this thread manage to simultaneously overestimate and underestimate the power of parenthood in shaping a mind. Your children will be individuals. They will have a subjective view of the world entirely created by them. Within their subjective view, you, as a parent, will have a privileged position. They will judge the character of their interactions against your character. You become the measure.

That is all the influence you actually have. Its direct power is minimal. You can't force your kid to be a soldier, or a lawyer, or doctor, or whatever. It won't work. Child will rebel, or, if he/she attempts to live up to your projection, will feel inadequate. Its subtle power is vast! If you show real character you provide an example that will echo through your child's entire life.

I seriously question how I could ever MORALLY justify having children if I do not think it is likely they will have a good life.

Having children is not a "moral" proposition. That you have framed it as such suggests that you had already made up your mind and are now trying to justify that decision. Have kids or don't, but don't pretend that you're decision not to makes you noble.

I have reason to believe the next few decades will not be particularly easy for humanity

What period of human history has been?

... "making the problem of overpopulation worse, further denigrating the quality of life of every other child and adult human"

Only if you envision your children to be a burden or drain on society. They could just as easily contribute to the health, happiness, and joy of society as to its denigration.

All this to give birth to a child that will be brainwashed from a young age

Are you just going to drop the kid off at a state run nursery and call it a day knowing what you "know"?

and has a high likelihood of dieing of unnatural causes(war, disease, famine

What else has been shaping life and culture for the past 100,000 years? None of those deaths are unnatural. Its how we die.

My children would be black sheep. Like me.

Which shows the crux of the problem, no self-esteem. So what! Would you rather they be a part of the collective? It seems that the opportunities to be individuated are greater than almost any other time in the past. Everybody will be a "black sheep" sooner or later. At least your kids will be used to it.

If everybody seriously contemplated this issue, and actually thought before popping out little oxygen sucking, natural resource consuming, planet crowding "miracles", maybe we wouldn't be in the predicament we're in Reddit.

Here it is, you've convinced yourself that the pointless linguistic justification you've constructed is a moral good and now can denigrate anybody that looks forward to, or already has, a family. I'll tell you what I perceive as the greater "moral" concern, everybody on the internet thinks his/her sophomoric ruminations are great moral pronouncements which places him/her in the position to look down on the rest of the herd.

Get over yourself. The future is uncertain. Today could just as easily be a renaissance as an apocalypse.

Excellent points, all. Hopefully you have many children someday and teach them what you know... the world will be a better place full of your descendants, and hopefully they won't have to deal with OP's illegitimate child.

Glad you're fighting the good fight. Family life strengthens population to resist tyranny in the only method that actually works: non-compliance. That so many "awakened" people think the answer is to arrest their lineage is a clear indication of a forced narrative of helplessness. I agree with you in this: we owe our ancestors for existence. We repay that debt by carrying the ball forward and passing it on to our offspring.

Yes, exactly. They gave us life before they lost theirs, so we owe them at least that much. I feel duty bound to raise my son in a better place than I was, and if I fail, my hope is that my son can do a better job for his children someday. The rich and powerful are only born that way because generations of ancestors before them made it happen. The poor and powerless are descended from fools and quitters.

The poor and powerless are descended from fools and quitters.

Even though I accept a debt to my ancestors, they do not define me. If they have been successful in putting my existence in place, they have done all they need for me to continue the thread. There are many that are poor or powerless that are not fools or quitters. Karma (interpreted as effect of action) oftentimes determines the backdrop into which we are thrust, but cannot speak of the character of the individuals that caused that karma.

You have to play the hand you are dealt, sure. Or you can figure out how to stack the deck for your descendants. Don't blame your ancestors for their failings, but also don't use them as your own excuses for failure.

I agree. One caveat though, defining success for the future is difficult. At present, the best I can come up with is providing a platform that offers the greatest number of options for my child. In order to allow my child to use the freedom I am trying to secure for him/her, I cannot a priori define any choice as success or failure.

I think that is why traditional society saw the birth of grandchildren as success. Whatever choices your child makes are for him/her alone. Success is represented by those choices leading to continuation.

Agreed.

"Having children is not a "moral" proposition." It is a an ethical proposition. You are twisting it into a noble one to make a cut at the OP.

"What period of human history has been?" We've never faced a problem remotely similar to this.

"Only if you envision your children to be a burden or drain on society. They could just as easily contribute to the health, happiness, and joy of society as to its denigration."

Yay! Anyone else wanna gamble.. with children?

"Are you just going to drop the kid off at a state run nursery and call it a day knowing what you "know"?"

Isn't this the norm?

"Here it is, you've convinced yourself that the pointless linguistic justification you've constructed is a moral good and now can denigrate anybody that looks forward to, or already has, a family. I'll tell you what I perceive as the greater "moral" concern, everybody on the internet thinks his/her sophomoric ruminations are great moral pronouncements which places him/her in the position to look down on the rest of the herd."

You might take a lesson from your self here.

"Get over yourself. The future is uncertain. Today could just as easily be a renaissance as an apocalypse."

Yeah! Screw science and other bullshit that tries to predict the "future" with figures and trendlines and magic.

I never had kids and I'm so glad I didn't. Back when I was of child bearing age no one knew how much more insane and hostile the US environment would get, and same for the entire planet. It's selfish and irresponsible to reproduce. If you really love kids why would you inflict existence on this planet in the physical realm upon them? No one gets out of it unscathed, and few don't have to deal with someone they love dying. A kid comes into the world and though there are wet diapers and colic they're naive and unaware of the horrible things people do to each other. First it's brightly colored toys and then some horror occurs and they find out what reality is about.

If you really love kids why would you inflict existence on this planet in the physical realm upon them?

A perfect example of inverted "morality". Existence is greater than non-existence is why. The fact that you have continued your existence to this point indicates you accept the same. Actors on the stage make the play.

No one gets out of it unscathed, and few don't have to deal with someone they love dying.

Why does the development of experience and character get bemoaned so much? You will experience people you love dying, fact. You will experience injustice, infirmity, dark days, oppression, fact. You will grow and develop even in the most sickening environment, fact.

It sounds like you accept some sort of spiritual experience. Why would you limit the type of experiences that get replicated to the beyond? Doesn't that invalidate the experience itself? Isn't that a damning indictment to all the souls that have come before, but due to decision or circumstance, were unable to live the ideal/pure life that you think is worthy?

First it's brightly colored toys and then some horror occurs and they find out what reality is about.

Yea, people grow and develop. No need to pathologize that reality.

Existence is greater than non-existence is why.

A hypothetical being who never experienced the realities and inevitable heartaches of existence shouldn't be created from a sperm and egg because "existence is" supposedly "greater than non-existence. By the way, I want to ask why you believe that.

Once a human being is an actual entity in the physical realm, their life on earth is all most of them believe to be a guaranteed reality for themselves. Some believe the spirit, or awareness, continues after death, but the connection to the earthly realm is instinctually strong. That arises from a basic part of ourselves. What might make existence on earth worth staying for is relations with people we love. For others who don't believe anything exists beyond death, there's a fear of nothingness. If nothingness is the primal state, why not let well enough stay as it is? Why create life when suffering is part of it, and for many it's going to outweigh the good parts. I didn't want to ever take that gamble.

Why does the development of experience and character get bemoaned so much?

Those are worthwhile acheivements, but it's reckless and naive to bring life into this world with the idea a kid will attain them, or reach their potential given their talents and abilities, and you might have kids born with not much to work with. This has always been true, because arbitrary factors affect a person's life that might make self-actualization impossible, but now things are worse than I've ever seen in my lifetime. The world isn't at all a healthy place with a better future. It's apparent many reckless breeders probably don't have the intellect and forsight to consider their kids' "development of experience and character", and no idea what TPTB intend for humankind. Many don't have the ability to do the simple arithmetic required to realize they can't afford to have kids, and don't have any foresight to see what parenting is going to require if they're going to do a good job of it. IMHO it means putting your kids wellbeing before anything, and all of our wellbeings are now very much at risk everywhere.

I don't limit our spiritual experiences to replication to the beyond, and I didn't say that. My beliefs are more complicated than that and I don't want to take time to explain them. I think we are spirit caught in the physical realm and try our best, and if our intentions are good we can't always be blamed for bad things that happen. I don't remember saying anything about an ideal or pure life. I intended to say there's so much trouble on earth-which is only going to get worse-that it's a bad idea to have kids.

There's nothing pathological about comparing the rose colored world of an infant and young child with the shitty reality he or she is going to eventually find themselves in. The only thing pathological I can see happening is if someone grows and yet manages to keep seeing the world in a rosy haze.

This disturbing quote often comes to mind when contemplating these musings:

…22because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. 23"Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; 24and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

What do you think life was like right before the renaissance? When all of Europe stood on the cusp of an entirely new order to society? An illuminating parallel is that eschatology experienced a resurgence then as well. Those able to see beyond the gloom envisioned a new world, and subsequently birthed it.

I never ever wanted to have children because of my own personal issues I was afraid would be passed onto them (depression, bipolar, severe anxiety, ect). After I met my boyfriend a few years ago (who also suffered from some of the same things) he convinced me that we could be okay and I actually got excited about having children (he'd wanted children for a long time) and I just knew that I would raise them to be free thinkers, not believe all the hype in the media, teach them the "underground" information that mainstream media twists (basically refuse to let them be pawns of the establishment).

After my boyfriend's death earlier this year I completely shut down the idea of kids, mostly because I could only see myself having a child with him, and partially because I know that the world is only going to get worse and unfortunately I don't see enough informed people, or people who will actually stand up and try to change it.

I never wanted kids and neither does my husband. A big part for me is that I would feel nasty to bring a human into this world and then die, leaving them to suffer alone. My [very loving and lovely parents made me and now they are gone and I miss them far too much. I don't want someone else to feel this way].

I am almost 50 and never even wavered once on my opinion. I suffer from anxiety, I fear death yet think life is cruel. Plus the way the world is heading isn't fun. Too little personal freedom, surveillances, money problems, housing problems, uncertain political future, not enough jobs, no outlook unless you are rich, the possibility of horrible diseases, stressful workplaces [if you get a job] etc... The few times life is fun is nice, but not enough reason to bring a life into existence.

I could never forgive myself bringing a person into this world. We stick to keeping animals, thank you very much.

A big part for me is that I would feel nasty to bring a human into this world and then die, leaving them to suffer alone

You don't think this indicates a faulty self-image? Wouldn't they also have had the chance to experience joy and connection "alone" as well? Why do you think that your existence would be the center point of your children's existence?

My very loving and lovely parents made me and now they are gone

You're almost 50. Maybe you have another 30 years of life in you (maybe 50 more!) Do you really think that you will suffer alone for the remainder of that term? You don't imagine that you may be able to find someone to share that experience with? Do you sense that that grief may be detracting from your sense of individuation?

Too little personal freedom, surveillances, ...

Blah, blah, blah, blah. "Shit sucks today, and it can never get better" is what you're saying.

The few times life is fun is nice, but not enough reason to bring a life into existence.

When would be enough to bring a life into existence? What is the bar? Does life have to be 95% happy? 90%? 85%? Where is the cutoff and what does that cutoff mean for those below the line? Are their lives less meaningful for having been birthed in the Asura realms rather than the Deva realms?

I could never forgive myself bringing a person into this world.

And once again, the anti-moral pronouncement. Its not about you. Your children's lives wouldn't be about you. They would be about them! Do you bear malice against your parents for bringing you into this world? Why would you expect your children to bear a grudge?

Give your pets away to someone who isn't a miserable wretch. Your pets deserve a better life.

I do wonder about the lack of an international drive to voluntarily limit the number of children one has and provide the means, free, free birth control pills, IUDs, implants, vasectomies, and clinical support.

That would be much cheaper than to continue to wish the problem away.

The main reason this is not done is the protests by religious organizations and some ethnic groups who have a good reason to believe they are being deliberately targeted.

...than to continue to wish the problem away.

Not everybody views population as the problem. I don't.

Yeah I'm not breeding; may possibly adopt, think it's the best thing you could possibly do with ones life other than fight the cause

Whites need to have more children. They need to have large, extended families with eight or nine kids at a time. The number of whites is dwindling.

All the arguments you've heard for not having kids? Those are propaganda talking points pumped into your head by those who control your media -- wealthy Jews, mostly -- who want your race to die off so that they can more easily control the races of humanity that are left. Don't buy into their lies.

Until I find a non-selfish reason, Maybe? But until then theres too much shit going on. Overpopulation, water crisis, wars, bad economy, etc etc. Not to mention, the pain of existence.

Having a child is literally the least selfish thing you can do. You are giving up the myth of your life to make a path for a new life.

You're right, I will give up the myth of my life so my kid can have a new life.

Which will just be a myth for them to give up for their kid to have a new life. Then later That life will be a myth.

This way, life is always a myth. You know, cause the earth will be dead because we didn't believe it was real in the first place, so we let it die so we could birth more myth lives.

Our ancestors didn't have children out of a lack of fear.

They simply did what millions of generations of ancestors did before them: fuck and reproduce, coz it's what you're "supposed" to do.

As we become more aware, as a world culture and as individuals, other avenues of existence open up to us.

I think the non-child-producing path is utterly sane, given the way the world is and where it's going.

If you wanna set aside your fear and take up arms, you have that choice.

But thrusting that choice upon someone else (your offspring) is like putting a gun in someone's hands who didn't ask for it. On some deep level it is akin to what our militarized culture does with young destitute men, sending them off to war without a real choice.

Having a child is literally the least selfish thing you can do. You are giving up the myth of your life to make a path for a new life.

Strength, dedication and intelligence? Those aren't external. Is there anyone who instigates arguments online that has a brain?

If we weren't aware of it- we wouldn't be aware of it. So it doesn't make a goddamn difference. Again, this is a waste of time- you aren't making any points that are worth debating. It's all empty reasoning that won't make the slightest difference to anyone except for the time we are losing.

Existence is greater than non-existence is why.

A hypothetical being who never experienced the realities and inevitable heartaches of existence shouldn't be created from a sperm and egg because "existence is" supposedly "greater than non-existence. By the way, I want to ask why you believe that.

Once a human being is an actual entity in the physical realm, their life on earth is all most of them believe to be a guaranteed reality for themselves. Some believe the spirit, or awareness, continues after death, but the connection to the earthly realm is instinctually strong. That arises from a basic part of ourselves. What might make existence on earth worth staying for is relations with people we love. For others who don't believe anything exists beyond death, there's a fear of nothingness. If nothingness is the primal state, why not let well enough stay as it is? Why create life when suffering is part of it, and for many it's going to outweigh the good parts. I didn't want to ever take that gamble.

Why does the development of experience and character get bemoaned so much?

Those are worthwhile acheivements, but it's reckless and naive to bring life into this world with the idea a kid will attain them, or reach their potential given their talents and abilities, and you might have kids born with not much to work with. This has always been true, because arbitrary factors affect a person's life that might make self-actualization impossible, but now things are worse than I've ever seen in my lifetime. The world isn't at all a healthy place with a better future. It's apparent many reckless breeders probably don't have the intellect and forsight to consider their kids' "development of experience and character", and no idea what TPTB intend for humankind. Many don't have the ability to do the simple arithmetic required to realize they can't afford to have kids, and don't have any foresight to see what parenting is going to require if they're going to do a good job of it. IMHO it means putting your kids wellbeing before anything, and all of our wellbeings are now very much at risk everywhere.

I don't limit our spiritual experiences to replication to the beyond, and I didn't say that. My beliefs are more complicated than that and I don't want to take time to explain them. I think we are spirit caught in the physical realm and try our best, and if our intentions are good we can't always be blamed for bad things that happen. I don't remember saying anything about an ideal or pure life. I intended to say there's so much trouble on earth-which is only going to get worse-that it's a bad idea to have kids.

There's nothing pathological about comparing the rose colored world of an infant and young child with the shitty reality he or she is going to eventually find themselves in. The only thing pathological I can see happening is if someone grows and yet manages to keep seeing the world in a rosy haze.

And what's the ultimate goal for your bloodline mein fuhrer? I suspect we're all alive because our ancestors adapted and because they didn't have condoms. Oh yeah, and because some of them were probably rapists.