I don't know why you're being downvoted. MH17 was basically used as an excuse to demonize russia even though the actual evidence points towards kiev downing the plane.

[deleted]

Of course you'd get down voted for that. Case in point.

because Western media wants to push the narrative that Putin and Russia are the evil empire

The evidences are against Russia and every time that the Russian version is debunked they invent a new version like if people in the were was so stupid to forget about the previous one, the Russian tv proudly confirmed the downing at the beginning cause they believed that it was an Ukrainian military plane then as soon as it was clear that they've committed a slaughter of western civilians they changed the news without any shame https://www.google.it/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=XF91Vc6vG8fcywOEs4HQDg&url=http://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DwIPkwhVHpJs&ved=0CCoQtwIwAw&usg=AFQjCNHV8Y9tuYVYbaoyNdWUfPzm86mQkg&sig2=4L6bWi5SgPYmYiS2xPgfkQ

we litterally have the telephone conversations of the rebels that shot it down with saying to their FSB handlers that they just shot down another Ukrainian military transport, which was intercepted minutes after the downing of MH17. We even have video of them driving to the wreckage while on the phone with their Russian handlers joyous about what just happened - and then turn into not so happy campers when they find all the civilian passports.

we litterally have the telephone conversations of the rebels that shot it down with saying to their FSB handlers that they just shot down another Ukrainian military transport, which was intercepted minutes after the downing of MH17.

No we don't. We have a very cleverly edited version that changes the meaning of the Russian - turns out that "was shot down" and "we shot down" in Russian sound very similar.

The phone call consists of two people discussing a plane crash and is not an admission of guilt.

The conversation is very clear and with a distinct Rostov-on-Don dialect state that they shot down the plane. There is no grey area or misinterpretation of the phone conversations and self published tweets hailing victory about shooting down a transport, published immediately after the event.

You are 100% wrong here friend.

we litterally have the telephone conversations of the rebels that shot it down with saying to their FSB handlers that they just shot down another Ukrainian military transport, which was intercepted minutes after the downing of MH17. We even have video of them driving to the wreckage while on the phone with their Russian handlers joyous about what just happened - and then turn into not so happy campers when they find all the civilian passports.

Funny how the forensic evidence points towards a military aircraft taking down MH-17, and not a BUK launcher as is claimed by kiev and the west.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/how-the-malaysian-airlines-mh17-boeing-was-shot-down-examination-of-the-wreckage/5435094

But by all means, post your telephone conversations and video, I'd love to see them.

that is not a report from the forensic investigation - that right there is the opinion of a russian colonel without access to the actual materials linking pictures along with claims which laymen can't assess the validity off.

Right. So where's your evidence again? EDIT: Downvotes for what? Asking for evidence? Really? I post a picture with evidence (however tenuous that might be) and get downvoted when I ask for anything competing? I can discredit any source, but if you don't have a competing source then don't downvote for me asking for it.

Talk about forum sliding...

You have posted no evidence. You posted a discredited Russian military officer blog. You are attacking real evidence for the Putler propaganda line, like blaming a Ukraine fighter jet LOL.

next you will be posting Putler propaganda like this

I'm sorry you Russian shills are exposed.

You have posted no evidence.

I have posted analysis of pictures from someone who knows the russian and Ukrainian weapon systems.

You posted a discredited Russian military officer blog.

Discredited by whom? You?

You are attacking real evidence

What evidence? The only thing your buddy linked was from RT (ironic) stating that it was not a russian system that shot down the plane.

the audio of the discussion on the phone has even been confirmed by one of the people in the conversation, Nikolai Kozitsin (pro russian cossack leader in lugansk).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYEH6Tfzouo#t=6m45s

when asked 'do you know who shot it down?', he answers "a missile"

RT quoting the makers of BUK who say it was shot down by a missile.

http://rt.com/news/264205-buk-manufacturer-mh17-ukraine/

"The BUK missile manufacturer revealed its own findings into the flight MH17 downing over Ukraine, effectively proving that a missile type consistent only with the Buk-M1 system was used – one that the Russian armed forces do not possess."

so, you've got a seperatist leader, RT news, and the russian manufacturer of the BUK missile system all saying they believe it was shot down by a missile, not a plane.

one that the Russian armed forces do not possess."

Right, and in the very same article is claims that russian forces do not possess these types of launchers. Even if the claims are true that russian forces are aiding the rebels, it would stand to reason that the rebels could not shoot down a plane with equipment that they do not possess. They didn't start with BUK systems, and the russians do not have buk-m1s so therefore they aren't responsible...unless I'm missing an implication here?

so you accept it wasn't a plane that shot down mh17?

I don't accept anything. I look for evidence. Much of the evidence provided in the photos points towards either a SAM or possibly cannonfire or missile fire from a plane.

According to your transcript/recording (vice lol) the commander believes it was a missile.

Regardless, it's still not evidence that the russians instigated it as it's well known kiev has these types of launchers, and your source even indicates the russians/pro russian forces do not...

On a side note, linking vice is like linking snopes. A mainstream rag with an agenda. Their hack job on ghaddafi and assad are evidence enough of this let alone all the rest of the shit they push.

Your source that you are using as evidence still points out it was almost certainly the kiev government that fired:

Almaz-Antey has evidence that the BUK-M1 air defense missile system and accompanying missiles have been still deployed with the Ukrainian Armed Forces in 2005. According to their evidence, they had a total of 991 9M38M1 missiles at the time - Malyshev

If you're going to reference Global Research that describes North Korea as 'the land of human achievement, love and joy'

http://www.globalresearch.ca/north-korea-a-land-of-human-achievement-love-and-joy/5344960

Then you are a crackpot consipracy theorist.

MH 17 was shot down as an inbound flight into Russia, wrongly perceived it as a threat by the Russian GRU since they misidentified it as a Ukrainian troop transport.

MH 17 was shot down as an inbound flight into Russia, wrongly perceived it as a threat by the Russian GRU since they misidentified it as a Ukrainian troop transport.

You still have provided zero evidence of this other than the US government/the west stating that's what happened. Russia states the obvious. How about hard facts?

Also, nice ad hominem.

We already have posted evidence, real evidence. Read the dutch reports, Ukraine reports, west reports, and every report not connected to Russian propaganda.

You Russian shills are a joke. Putler owns all media in Russia, and its not to tell the truth.

We already have posted evidence, real evidence. Read the dutch reports, Ukraine reports, west reports, and every report not connected to Russian propaganda.

No, you haven't posted a single piece of evidence on this thread, whatsoever. And simply referring to western claims is the same as pro russian apologists referring to russian claims.

Give me actual evidence, or get lost.

actual evidence points towards kiev downing the plane.

There is no evidence of this. Despite what the Putler propagandist say they have no evidence besides the evidence against them and their separatist.

Nah, most of the evidence points towards kiev:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/how-the-malaysian-airlines-mh17-boeing-was-shot-down-examination-of-the-wreckage/5435094

www.globalresearch.ca

That's your first strike there. Horrible website, that is discredited on its name alone.

Post comes from livejournal, by somebody who has zero credentials besides being a Putlerist and was discredited long ago.

Please try again.

www.globalresearch.ca[1] That's your first strike there. Horrible website, that is discredited on its name alone.

Discredited by the name "global research"? Ok.

and was discredited long ago.

Ahh the classic "was discredited long ago" argument. Please elaborate.

I'm still waiting to see evidence it was the rebels, I have already posted evidence it was kiev.

I have already posted evidence it was kiev.

You've have posted 0 evidence. The Dutch reports, you can read have already proven it was the rebels.

yes, www.globalresearch.ca I such a terrible site that it even is discredited by conspiracy theorist.

Only Putler propaganda agents post it as a source.

You've have posted 0 evidence.

No, I have posted evidence you claim is discredited, yet you cannot state WHY it is discredited.

The Dutch reports, you can read have already proven it was the rebels.

Go ahead and link.

yes, www.globalresearch.ca[1] I such a terrible site that it even is discredited by conspiracy theorist.

Simply stating something is discredited, does not make it so.

Only Putler propaganda agents post it as a source.

More ad hominem.

Downvote because of the use of : putler

Why Ukraine did not make Donbass a no fly zone?

Why should they? many past conflicts don't require it to be a no fly zone. There is a civilian altitude and civilian travel routes. Problem was idiotic separatist or Russians messed up bad.

Separatist talking to handler

Streklov even said they downed a Ukraine plane, before he found out it was not military

Why Ukraine has not yet given the reasons for course change of the airplane?

Never heard of this before.

Why Ukraine hasn't yet given the tapes with the talks of the dispatchers in Dnepropetrovsk?

All air traffic control tapes were turned over a long time ago.

Why Ukraine did not allow any investigators to the crash site?

Ukraine never did this. the plane fell in a contested area, more in the separatist zone and separatist prevented investigators from getting to the crash site. Separatist also looted from corpses, removed parts of the plane, and other shady stuff.

Why U.S.A. didn't provide us with satellite images which allegedly prove that it was the russians(or pro rebels) who downed it?

What do yo mean by this? The US already has given what it had. Its already been proven it was separatist that downed the plane, the evidence is overwhelming. The report isn't finished yet.

here is a rundown

I find it interesting how you and /u/Guck_Mal both use the term "handlers". Haven't seen that term used much. It's like these are talking points someone told you to say...

what else would you call FSB colonels giving orders to ukrainian "rebels" over the phone? we have the damned voice intercepts.

Because a shitty quality audio of two people talking is definite 100% proof of whatever it is you want to prove right?

two people talking, with the knowledge of which phone number called which, with location at both ends confirmed, with people in the region recognizing the rebel leader on the one end.

to NOT believe this is what actually happened you have to actually produce evidence for your side of the argument.

So those fake videos where the "Ukrainian" army hung some guy and his wife and crucified and burned another are definite proof of those things happening since..they are on video?

[deleted]

Or he disagrees. Be less hyperbolic.

I see you postin Russian propaganda sources like globalresearch.ca and random youtube from conspiracy theorist and RT AKA Putler owned propaganda station. I'm not reading complete trash sites that nobody uses in a serious conversation.

yep, basic conspiracy nonsense with zero evidence.

How much is the kremlin paying you guys this month?

The rebels immediately found the black boxes and handled them - curious thing... you down an airplane and then you look for the black boxes, find them and then handle them to those who will prove your guilt?!

That's not what happened at all, and the black box does magically give you every answer. They couldn't learn much from the black box considering the plane was hit and decompressed immediately.

the Putler mercenaries blocked access to the crash site.

Try using something else than Putler propaganda. I don't like the Russian lying narrative, which targets conspiracy theorist, being thrown around.

The problem is that if you actually a responsible state, you do not allow civil airplanes to fly where other(military) planes got shot down

You are blaming the civilians because Pulter mercenaries were to drunk or stupid to differentiate between a civilian plane and military? Like i said, in many war zones nobody has had a problem.

Your english sounds very unatural to those whose is its their first language. Are you russian? The way you put phrases together does not seem like a westener.

Oh I am sorry, I didn't get that "Reddit is only for native English speakers" memo.

Because your Pulter propaganda you tried to dump on this site got exposed. You had the narrative you foolishly posted to try and fool people.

You are probably projecting how mad you are, because nobody believes the lies Putler and his state controlled media have been spewing about Ukraine.

Why Ukraine did not make Donbass a no fly zone?

It was a no-fly zone up to 32,000 feet. MH17 was at 33,000.

The kind of threat envisaged was of man-portable shoulder-fired missiles, not high-altitude ones. There was simply no expectation that civil traffic at altitude would be at risk over a low-intensity civil conflict.

The conspiracy here seems more complex:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11643847/Clear-and-unequivocal-that-Russia-faked-MH17-evidence-report-says.html

and
https://www.bellingcat.com/resources/how-tos/2015/06/05/google-earth-image-verification/

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/1d6a9ac2-10e3-11e4-b116-00144feabdc0.html#axzz387cQkALB

as for your questions:
1) what is your point wiht this question? whether there was a nolfy zone is irrelevant
2) how would they know? (im not aware the Ukrainians made the plane change course. I thought the pilot controlled that).
3) don't know. (dunno why why this would be important)
4) do not know.

see the answers? this is what happens when you ask these questions on a reddit sub: no answers, just more uncertainty. if you really wanted to known the answers, you should ask these questions in places you'd actually get answers.

Therefore i conclude you are shilling for someone, and trying to plant doubt in redditors minds.

(and i dislike russia almost as much as i dislike bush)

you arent seriously seeking answers. If you were you'd take a serious approach russian sites would say bellingcat's analyses are fake. its RTs job to d that. (not that they are wrong about everything. But when its pro Russia you have to be skeptical.)

1) the plane was shotdown. whether there was a no fly zone is irrelevant;
2) globalresearch is poorly sourced opinion. we'd all like to know what really happened to mh17.

you havent explained the importanc eof your other questions.
Clearly you are not interested in truth.

who are you shilling for? RT? Globalresearch? or are you a limited hangout for bush?

only shills ask to skype as they know a persons location can be obtained from it.

now: you should go and have a good think about what you're doing. is this really how you want to earn a living?

Truthseeking is hard enough for genuine sleptics without shills like you muddying the water

''Kachiiing$$''

[deleted]

Yep. Anyone that quotes Bellingcat is either:-

One of the most ignorant people on Earth

or

Is deliberately trying to deceive people.

All of Bellingcat's stuff is faked, fabricated or otherwise false.

(And it's not just fake on Ukraine. His stuff on the Sarin gas attack in Damascus in August 2013 was a whole bunch of lies too.)

You are another Russian shill.

Nope. But I haven't been deceived by Neocon Nutjobs and their propaganda shills. I do some research on what the facts are about a subject before commenting (unlike you).

Let me know if you want to discuss what the actual evidence is on who and what shot down MH17.

Video - Malaysia Airlines debris seen falling from the sky in Ukraine

Video - MH17 passenger's body crashed through a house

Notice how it is not a big deal on American news anymore either. Because they fucked up so they want the masses forget it happened. But if a cop kills a black guy lets send the whole news team there.

No, the report isn't finished yet. It will be a big deal when its finalized, these investigations take time.

Im not talking about federal, international investigations etc? I said the media. Instead they report most weeks on how a old Olympic athlete became a woman. People watch the news so they need to be kept informed on real world situations not what model's ass is bigger.

Yeah but its another embarrassment for America, like when Kerry lied about Assad using chemical weapons on his own people, well, just like all the other lies.....

The UN reports says otherwise.

Here is ZetaTalk on the MH-17 shootdown & Ukraine's intentions:

  Creating a tragedy to induce partners to enter into a war is certainly nothing new. The US has been accused of doing this at Pearl Harbor to allow the US to engage during WW II and the Gulf of Tonkin incident allowing the US to engage during the Vietnam war. Only months ago an incident with poison gas in Syria was shown to be an attempt to draw the US into a war with Syria on behalf of Israel. Despite the vote showing that the majority of people in the southeastern Ukraine region want to be considered Russian, the leadership in the Ukraine is furious that neither NATO or the US is fighting on their side. In that Putin was reported to be overhead on the same path as MH 17 just minutes before the shootdown, this is also an attempt to aggravate Putin to engage.

  The world will resist these attempts, but the truth of who actually shot down MH 17 will likely never be admitted by the west.

--ZetaTalk Chat Q&A for July 19, 2014

  This high level discussion is clearly about the Ukraine conflict, which has again heated up. Both sides are again pointing fingers and claiming the other side started the shelling. As it is clear that Kiev has never been truthful about the shootdown of MH 017, which was without a doubt brought down by those in Kiev with their SU 25 fighter jets so clearly caught on radar. The 30 mm bullet holes where the pilot of the plane sat are proof beyond a doubt. Yet the West does not provide this to the public, but rather continues to state that Russia is somehow responsible. The downing of MH 17 and Kiev’s attempts to frame the Russian separatists did not rally NATO to attack the separatists on behalf of those in Kiev, and NATO members knew the truth even if it was not publicly admitted...

  The solution here is for the West to admit they have a problem child, and refuse to allow Kiev to use western media as a propaganda tool. This is unlikely to happen, but rather yet another standoff.

--ZetaTalk Chat Q&A for February 14, 2015

  MH 017 was downed by Kiev in an attempt to engage Europe to fight Ukraine’s battles.

-- ZetaTalk Chat Q&A for 17 January 2015

Your correct.
It has all the hallmarks of past CIA projects of the like. Implicitly. The agreement between Dutch, aus, Malay for releasing information, Ie air traffic control recordings and black box info, why Obama was so quick to address it even though there was no real connection to USA in terms of the accident or victims at all. Why are usa so vocal? It was their job. Another operation by design that was a huge fail.

Truth for the families please.

My two cents;

Ukraine was using civilian aircrafts as human shields for its jet-strikes. The team (Russian/Crimean/Donbass soldiers) over the BUK was completely isolated, certainly radio-silenced, and relying only on their radar. How MH17 was apparently being "escorted", they mistook it for a carrier and shot it down. Only later realizing their mistake.

A few points supporting this include how post-MH17 Kiev completely stopped with air-raids, there have been none since the incident. While initially successful, their airstrike capabilities were cut short by MAA and manpads, by using civilian aircrafts as shields and leaving the airspace open gave their jets both cover, and possibility to rise above the reach of manpads and Strela (?) systems. How despite western investigations and obvious outcries, Washington has done little to actually pinpoint a cultprit.

No it doesn't.

It was designed so illiterate shit trained Russian conscripts could operate it.

www.globalresearch.ca[1] That's your first strike there. Horrible website, that is discredited on its name alone.

Discredited by the name "global research"? Ok.

and was discredited long ago.

Ahh the classic "was discredited long ago" argument. Please elaborate.

I'm still waiting to see evidence it was the rebels, I have already posted evidence it was kiev.