Thank you! Your efforts are appreciated.

its not even debatable anymore. peep this http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2002/apr/21/uk.medicalscience

That 13 year old article describes various 'experiments' carried out by HMG on the public including spraying from aircraft, trucks, and ships offshore. It does not say anything that would prove contrails are really chemtrails. Similarly, you won't find a single patent that describes creating 200 mile long plumes of white powder across clear blue skies. Apart from the physical impossibility of fitting all that powder into a relatively tiny aircraft, which already has a full complement of crew and passengers, there is the big unanswered question: Why don't they do their secret toxic spraying at night when nobody can see it?

You'll notice no one replies to your question in this sub because there isn't an answer that fits the narrative circle jerk here.

[deleted]

707paladin can't handle the truth

I can't speak for 707, but I'm here for the lolz and the entertainment.

Apart from the physical impossibility of fitting all that powder into a relatively tiny aircraft, which already has a full complement of crew and passengers, there is the big unanswered question: Why don't they do their secret toxic spraying at night when nobody can see it?

Actually, if you watch the GeoengineeringWatch videos Dane Wigington explains that they do spray chemtrails at night as well, but most of them are during the day for efficiency reasons. I can't remember the specifics anymore, it has been a while since I've watched the videos, but he does provide a sufficient answer to this question. As for your other ridiculous remark about fitting "all that powder" into a "relatively tiny aircraft": Firstly it's not a powder, it's a liquid aerosol, and secondly most of the aircraft are anything but tiny.

Firstly it's not a powder, it's an aerosol

It's a powder (or liquid) which is sprayed into air to become an aerosol.

Also, a long persistent contrail contains thousands of tons of ice. The aerosol powder used to create precipitation in rainclouds is a few kilos, and invisible to see.

And finally, Dane Wigington isn't a complete moron because he makes a tidy living out of scaring gullible people with his conspiracy theories, but you really shouldn't take anything he says as the truth.

It's a powder (or liquid) which is sprayed into air to become an aerosol.

Sorry, liquid aerosol. Regardless, still not a powder.

Also, a long persistent contrail contains thousands of tons of ice. The aerosol powder used to create precipitation in rainclouds is a few kilos, and invisible to see.

That's irrelevant. It's not traditional cloud seeding that is happening.

And finally, Dane Wigington isn't a complete moron because he makes a tidy living out of scaring gullible people with his conspiracy theories, but you really shouldn't take anything he says as the truth.

I can think of far easier way to make money. That would have to be one of the least effective ways imaginable.

It's a powder (or liquid) which is sprayed into air to become an aerosol.

It's a liquid, 10-100 Micron aluminum particles are not powder, please stop using powder.

Also, a long persistent contrail contains thousands of tons of ice.

Really? Can I get a source on this? I've never seen this data where they've actually measured the amount of ice in a contrail.

The aerosol powder used to create precipitation in rainclouds is a few kilos, and invisible to see.

That's not what they're spraying to mitigate global warming though, so stop trying to confuse people by purposely confusing which process does what.

There is cloud seeding, which ionizes the particles around the clouds to make them form into rain clouds.

There is also global warming mitigation, which takes 10-100 micron aluminum particulate matter and sprays that to act as a shield against the sun.

And finally, Dane Wigington isn't a complete moron

Look at you attacking his character because you can't refute any of his data.

/u/King-Hell you are the biggest, oldest, most recognizable shill against the truth of geo-engineering on /r/conspiracy .

Look at you attacking his character because you can't refute any of his data

I can, and do, refute his hysterical bullshit all the time.

which ionizes the particles around the clouds to make them form into rain clouds

You have no idea what you are saying; just throwing technical sounding terms into the ring in the hope that one of them makes sense. FYI, 'Ionising' refers to radioactivity, not cloud formation. Aren't you slightly embarrassed when you make these howlers?

There is cloud seeding, which ionizes the particles around the clouds to make them form into rain clouds.

That is what I said, do not purposely misquote me to fit your narrative.

I do know what I'm talking about, and one method of cloud seeding is to induce conditions which lead to the ionization of cloud nuclei, which is achieved through X-ray and other radio frequency manipulation.

You could also just straight up spray sulfur-dioxide to seed clouds as those act as cloud nuclei.

Both of these activities, are weather modification activities designed to manipulate cloud formations and rain systems.

Those are NOT the same as the atmospheric aerosol spraying of particulate matter to mitigate the effects of global warming.

Here you go.

Ground water and soil samples which contain the chemical composition of aluminum, strontium, barium, and other elements in coal ash serve as direct evidence for these "global warming mitigation" activities.

You are a ridiculous propagandist, but know that you are LOSING.

Every day you try and continue your fight against the truth behind global weather manipulation and geo-engineering, is a day wasted.

aluminum, strontium, barium, and other elements in coal ash

Which is exactly how those elements ended up in the environment... being by products of burning carbon fuel.

thanks for posting this

http://www.climos.com/news/articles/candr.htm

Sorry, I must have missed some previous discussions. What are you claiming here? You mention geoengineering and have a bunch of links detailing that it is clearly something for which there have been small scale tests and some level of interest, so what is the conspiracy? Do people actually believe geoengineering straight up doesn't exist?

Also, how do chemtrails factor in? I thought that was a pretty discredited idea in that the condensation trails behind jets are exactly what one expects with zero additives.

Could you please make your point rather than posting a bunch of links?

They separately coined the term in a title to a USAF Academy chemistry class lab manual, not a reference to geoengineering and nothing to do with the conspiracy theory. It was a play on words, in reference to the "Contrails" book of facts about the USAF that cadets must memorize.

When your answers run out and your flimsy logic is flying in tatters, roll out the ad hominem attack to save the day and move on.

What's the best link that proves airlines worldwide are collaborating on a massive program to spray us with chemicals?

Because I've read your first four links, which say nothing of the sort and are garbage.

You should really put the best ones at the top, if you haven't already, because I've lost interest and won't bother reading the rest.

Did you read your own links?

Really? Minute quantities of chemicals added to jet fuel are enough to create trails hundreds of miles long which would weigh hundreds of thousands of tonnes?

Your best link is a pdf made by a Chemtrail conspiracy website... Great.

Yep. A company, now shut down, which operated one 747 and a small fleet of small aircraft.

So these guys were releasing these millions of tonnes of chemicals from their solo 747 were they?

Yea... They and their one aircraft went away.

Evergreen run a fleet of 50 year old Boeing 707s which are contracted to the US military as aerial refuelling tankers.

I'm the sole moderator of the chemtrails subverse on voat. I snagged it in the 1st reddit exodus, 10 months ago. I welcome input and skepticism, but denial won't be tolerated.

So only "skepticism" that supports your view.

The main fucking problem with /r/conspiracy is that we have more people who browse/troll here that don't even believe in conspiracies.

That's a problem, like get the fuck out.

I think it's pretty damn fair to not tolerate denial of chemtrails in a chemtrails sub. If you want to deny chemtrails, make a chemtrails denial sub, and converse with your own people.

All people want to do is argue and prove other people wrong, divide themselves, put themselves in a place where they know they shouldn't be.

And how pathetic is that?

[deleted]

Yeah if you think about it why wouldn't they?

I think it is fear. Fear turns into anger and that anger is directed here. They are scared because they want to believe that our world is run by people who are relatively good. When the truth is that the world is run by tyrants who will stop at nothing to control everything and everyone.

What? So we all believe the same thing do we?

I'm a conspiracy theorist. I've no doubt the CIA killed JFK and there is a concerted effort worldwide to enslave us.

But as a holder of a Commercial Pilot License, I don't believe the contrails in the sky are Chemtrails. Well, I shouldn't use the word 'believe', I know they aren't.

As an engineer, thank you. I'm not aerospace, but I've taken my fair share of thermo and engine design courses and contrails are a basic consequence of the jet engine cycle.

Guess every engineer ever is in cahoots and part of the NWO.

I'm an engineer and I disagree with you.

On what basis?

There should be no correlation with a plane passing by and the formation of clouds along the path of deposits. There is though.

I witnessed this tree planting in northwestern rural regions of Canada. I've witnessed it in rural southeastern regions of Canada.

People who are willing to forego observation for some random belief that: "they wouldn't lie to us" after all the evidence that we are consistently and constantly lied to are not making scientific observations.

There should be no correlation with a plane passing by and the formation of clouds along the path of deposits. There is though

So, you're saying that you don't believe in the decades-old explanation from the scientific literature on atmospheric physics, regarding contrail formation and persistence in ice-supersaturated air? On what scientific basis do you disregard it?

I didn't say that. Thanks for your straw man, it has been noted.

When you can witness trails from planes persist and form covering over a vast region and it is consistently true, then suggesting it isn't true means that you have failed to observe.

If your theory lacks observation, then it has no merit.

You guys see what I'm talking about?

I have witnessed trails persisting and forming cloud cover that covers a large region. Who is suggesting that isn't true? But that is entirely consistent with the scientific explanations regarding persistent contrails, as reported in the scientific literature for as long as there's been high-altitude air travel.

Consider the 1970 paper from the Journal of the Atmospheric Sciences ("Airborne observations of contrail effects on the thermal radiation budget, http://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/pdf/10.1175/1520-0469(1970)027%3C0937%3AAOOCEO%3E2.0.CO%3B2 ), stating: "The spreading out of jet contrails into extensive cirrus sheets is a familiar sight. Often, when persistent conditions exist from 25,000 to 40,000 ft, several long contrails increase in number and gradually merge into an almost solid interlaced sheet." There's a lot of scientific literature on the topic, from the 1950s to today.

So, to claim (as you said) that "should be no correlation with a plane passing by and the formation of clouds along the path," is indeed to disbelieve (as I said) "the decades-old explanation from the scientific literature on atmospheric physics, regarding contrail formation and persistence in ice-supersaturated air."

And when those planes fly in patterns to maximize coverage over blue skies on sunny days, they might be doing it to take advantage of the effect. And they might use one of the many patents to enhance that effect.

To expect otherwise is to ignore history, current ideology, science, engineering, the economy, politics, and education.

You're engaging in unsupported speculation, not science.

Observation:

Planes are flying in patterns leaving behind trails which form clouds on sunny days. This happens across the country.

Hypothesis:

The patterns are made intentionally through modification of flight patterns and of exhaust.

Testing:

The patterns consistently form cloud coverage.

http://phys.org/news/2013-02-jets-contrails-contribute-heat-trapping-high-level.html

There are patents to enhance and/or direct the effect:

http://www.geoengineeringwatch.org/links-to-geoengineering-patents/

[deleted]

I work in bioremediation: using biology to decontaminate our ecosystem. Bud.

Nah, you're still a student and all you talk about is weed. Not to mention the pseudo science you spout in your comment history.

Nice try though, bud.

Sorry that you can't read, but I work for engineering firm and my current contract is to devise a more sustainable approach for one of the major supermarket chains to manage their waste. my approach focuses on bioremediation.

I'm also involved with two universities on research into hemp.

Which do you think disqualifies me?

[deleted]

Interesting opinion.

I have a MASc in bioengineering.

The part where you think you're qualified to talk about jet engines.

How do you know he's not?

Also, it's not just the engine that matters, but the myriad atmospheric conditions of which two are altitude and moisture.

Why is it that on perfectly clear days with no humidity, I can see two of the same sized planes flying in the sky, with one having a contrail which persistently lasts for about 300 yards or so behind the plane before tapering off ( a short tail which follows the plane and then vanishes, not showing its' entire flight path ), and the other plane seeming to be engaging in atmospheric aerosol spraying, leaving a very thin trail which persists behind it for hours as it slowly expands outwards making the line thicker?

Good job bud.

Landed right inside the stereotype.

Yet nobody disagrees that airplane exhaust increases cloud cover.

You're all fools if you think air traffic has no effect on weather patterns.

Who supplies your fuel?

You should know that a cocktail as simple as jet fuel exhaust contains condensation nuclei that will form clouds. Flying your plane changes the weather. Perhaps not on it's own, but added to the rest of the air traffic, without a doubt it does.

You surely have heard of the September 11th study that monitored a .5° fluctuation in surface temperatures when all traffic was grounded?

So many people are concerned about automotive exhaust. Nobody considers the dangers of airplane exhaust.

Whether they're chemtrails or just exhaust, they change the amount of Sun light that reaches the ground.

No shit. Not sure where I disbuted the fact that clouds cause less sun to hit the ground.

Well I'm sure there's a stark difference from what we see here..

But it's your call.

"Know".

I don't think you know what that word means

And you do right? From all your reading from highly prestigious conspiracy websites.

Very open-minded of you, spoken like a true nut.

So voat is already taking reddit's model of moderator's running things with an iron fist. I am sure the exodus will go well.

My God someone finally said it.

We have all these people in here, tons of them, who refuse to listen to a word we say and yet call us out for not "reading the literature" when we all know we wouldn't be making these claims if we hadn't. No, they're here to mock and troll us, not to a legitimate discussion.

Just take a scroll through some of the comments under my original one for a good example of this.

I'm sure one or two of these guys are trolling lol. Also note you were at +0 before I up voted you.

It's absolutely ironic.

Reddit is a business now, what do we expect

It's 7:34am in tell aviv. The shills are just waking up, give em a few hours and they will start hammering these threads while eating bagels

Indeed.

Well you also got to have some ready made copy pasta ready to go to convince people that there are specific projects operating now. I mean, if its so true. You should tolerate skepticism, its healthy. I for one am generally uninformed on any specific spraying ops, but like I have conceded before none of the links above surprise me in the very least. Do you have anything on any specific things happening now?

Copy pasta? Sure lol. I didn't realize it was a norm for people to default to that rather than simply speaking their mind.

I do tolerate skepticism, but if a guy is in here trolling and blatantly attacking people who do believe it, he needs to go.

You know what I have for things happening now?

A middle finger.

From the /r/conspiracy blurb in top-right corner of the page:

This subreddit is a thinking ground. Above all else, we respect everyone's opinions and ALL religions. We hope to challenge issues which have captured the public’s imagination, from JFK to 9/11. This is a forum for free thinking, not hate speech. Respect other views and opinions, and keep an open mind.

A shill shall divide and conquer

It is literally their fetish.

If people have questions concerning weather modification, that's understandable and welcome.

However, there is no doubt that something is being sprayed in our skies. Denying that it exists is lying. Lies don't add anything positive to the conversation. Dick Pests get deleted.

Weather modification (cloud seeding) certainly exists. But it it doesn't cause persistent cloud trails across the sky that look like persistent contrails, and it's not the same thing as geoengineering.

Very similar effect.

I'm almost afraid of what would happen if all air traffic were grounded for longer than a week. We'd have clearer skies and a possible runaway heating effect on our hands.

Very similar effect.

Cloud seeding as it is currently practiced isn't similar in effect to "geoengineering" proposals. It involves the release of materials into existing clouds, to induce or enhance precipitation.

I'm almost afraid of what would happen if all air traffic were grounded for longer than a week. We'd have clearer skies and a possible runaway heating effect on our hands.

They're actually thought to have a net warming effect, because in addition to blocking incoming sunlight, they also trap outgoing heat at night. But there's a lot of uncertainty about that.

Well the only data we have is from 9/11 and in the absence of air traffic temperatures rose. Could have been an anomaly. Kinda hard to recreate the experiment.

constantly educating the ignorant gets tiresome fast.

"Everyone who disagrees with me is ignorant."

Wow. Much skepticism.

not all. some just have an agenda, like you.

And you.

and you.

How pompous. You need to get an education yourself first. Hint: Believing everything Dane Wigington says is NOT educating yourself.

A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer. -Bruce Lee

The documentation you posted talks about geoengineering and the possible impacts of it. Nowhere does it prove the government is spraying the sky and jet contrails are chemtrails.

But none of the documentation you've just posted shows that geoengineering is being done now. It all shows that it's an idea that's being researched, discussed, and proposed for the future.

I read in reader's digest that China used weather modification when the Olympic games were there. For gods sakes the history channel played documentaries about Viet Nam, where we actually were able to extend the monsoon season for an additional month, as an attempt to bog down the Ho Chi Minh trail. "Cloud seeding" they called it. To say this technology or... type of weapon, isn't being used to this day is a skepticism that I will be needing proof of. Good luck with that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Popeye

Edit: " sponsored by Secretary of State Henry Kissinger and CIA without the authorization of then Secretary of Defense Melvin Laird who had categorically denied to Congress that a program for modification of the weather for use as a tactical weapon even existed"

Nobody is saying that geoengineering doesn't exist. Of course it does. It is well documented. But none of the documentation talks about creating 200 mile long plumes of white powder behind commercial or military aircraft flying at cruising altitude in clear skies. So link to all the documents you want, but the only ones talking about 'chemtrails' will be on paranoid conspiracy websites that get their income from clicks.

the only ones talking about 'chemtrails' will be on paranoid conspiracy websites that get their income from clicks.

Wrong. The state of Rhode Island has proposed legislation to ban chemtrails.

http://webserver.rilin.state.ri.us/BillText/BillText15/HouseText15/H5480.pdf

Sorry, I couldn't find a mention of the word 'chemtrail' anywhere in that document. Could you quote the relevant section(s)?

Yes, everything pertaining to geoengineering. That's what "chemtrails" are.

Not until you guys changed your definition of them.

Chemtrails weren't "geo-engineering" ten years ago, for example.

That is absolute bullshit. If you look at what most "conspiracy theorists" have thought chemtrails are it has always been geoengineering. For instance, years ago in a forum I went through a thread and counted up what all the people that believed in chemtrails vs. all the debunkers - the "conspiracy theorists" unanimously thought it was geoengineering. The only people bringing up the idea that "chemtrails" are meant to kill people etc. were debunkers. It has always been a straw man argument.

Of course this won't convince someone like you, because you may notice that you are actually using the strawman argument itself. And why use the strawman argument in the first place? Precisely because geoengineering doesn't sound nutty - in order for you guys to debunk the "chemtrail conspiracy" you have to make it sound like we are talking about something nutty.

"Geoengineering" means activities specifically and deliberately designed to effect a change in the area climate, with the intent or purpose of minimizing or masking anthropogenic climate change, including global warning. Such actions may include, but are not limited to, the following:

(i) Attempts to remove carbon dioxide from the atmosphere; and

(ii) Solar radiation management or cloud whitening, or similar process whereby aerosols, particles, chemicals, gases, vapors, or other compounds are injected into the atmosphere to reflect a portion of the sun's radiation back into space.

Right there you disingenuous liar.

Just because they don't use your Establishment Term "Chemtrail" doesn't mean they aren't talking about it.

"Similar process whereby aerosols, particles, chemicals, gases, vapors, or other compounds are injected into the atmosphere"

Oh gee, you mean making a trail of chemicals?

Oh wow, it's like either /u/ct_warlock is an actual idiot and has a severe reading comprehension problem, or they are a "chemtrails" shill.

Which is it /u/ct_warlock , who spends all day every day on /r/conspiracy , usually debating AGAINST every here:

Are you a blistering idiot with a severe reading comprehension problem, or are you a shill?

You won't get any answer to that. Bait-and-switch is a favourite tactic here... linking to authoritative sounding sources which actually have nothing to do with so-called chemtrails.

You won't get any answer to that.

I just left the answer you bold faced propagandist liar.

Bait-and-switch is a favourite tactic here

Yeah, you and your ilk use it all the time, don't play coy and pretend like we don't know who you are.

linking to authoritative sounding sources which actually have nothing to do with so-called chemtrails.

They linked to the Rhode Island House legislation explicitly speaking about atmospheric aerosol spraying.

Just because they don't use your Establishment Term "chemtrails" doesn't mean they're not talking about them.

"Similar process whereby aerosols, particles, chemicals, gases, vapors, or other compounds are injected into the atmosphere"

Those are your "chemtrails", chemicals which are sprayed into the atmosphere and thus leave a trail in the path in which they have been sprayed.

Do you understand this, or are you actually stupid?

Personally I think what you are doing is stupid, but not what's preventing you from speaking the truth, rather than spreading lies and deceit as you are doing now.

Yes, cloud seeding exists, and is still done today, including in some western US states. That's a matter of public record; it's not new or secret. But that's not the same thing as geoengineering, and it doesn't cause cloud trails across the sky that look like persistent contrails.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stratospheric_sulfate_aerosols_(geoengineering)

"Tarnishing of the sky: Aerosols will noticeably affect the appearance of the sky, resulting in a potential "whitening" effect, and altered sunsets"

There are many projects in history we are only now learning about, where unsuspecting populations were exposed to aerosol sprays for various and sometimes very dark reasons. The 'Big Thing' now is Solar Radiation Management - various schemes for dimming the Sun's intensity.

One of those schemes, called Stratospheric Aerosol Dispersal, would involve spraying substances like aluminium and sulphur into the upper atmosphere where they would drift for up to five years before reentering the weather system. The problem with SAR is that the only way to test it is to do it. And if we do it there's no turning back. We will have opened a can of worms which can never be closed. It's insanity. There is a supposed ban on large scale geoengineering but there are exemptions for local cloud busting and 'experiments'. So you can be sure they are experimenting the hell out of it.

That's where the danger is. Ten miles up in the atmosphere where you can't see it. All the time you spend 'Looking Up' at the contrails is a waste of time and energy. They really are just clouds of ice crystals, and their problem is not that they're poisonous, but the constant haze of cirrus cloud they create which traps heat and adds to global warming. Contrails are killing the planet. The effect is so subtle we haven't noticed it yet, but it's happening. The once-blue skies are now often a haze of artificial cirrus, and it will only get worse as air travel increases.

It would be great if slow heavy lifter airships came along to take over much of air freighting. They would fly at low altitude and never create contrails. But forcing existing aircraft, which have been optimised to operate at 30 to 40,000 feet, to fly lower would certainly increase their fuel consumption.

But it's either that or we develop a zero-contrail fuel (difficult if not impossible) or we resort to geoengineering to 'Cirrus Strip' away the clouds. One way or another we have to make the skies blue again.

You can find .gov websites with official passed bills and patents referencing, by name, chemical trails

You can find a reference to one single bill which used the word "chemtrails," HR 2977, which was introduced but never passed; it died in committee.

HR2977 was originally drafted by UFO enthusiasts Alfred Webre and Carol Rosin. It included not just chemtrails, but also mind control weapons, earthquake weapons, and alien weapons. When Kucinich (the sponsor) found out about these, it was rewritten with the "exotic" (fictional) weapons removed. It still failed in committee. Said Kucinich: “I’m not into that. Understand me. When I found out that was in there, I said, ‘Look, I’m not interested in going there.’”

Here is legislation proposed by the state of Rhode Island to ban geonengineering.

https://chemtrailsplanet.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/rhode-island-2015-h-b-5480-relating-to-health-and-safety-geoengineering.pdf

Now, I don't know what you think the phrase "already in the experimental stages" means to you, but to me it means the technology is already being tested for efficacy, not merely being discussed and proposed.

I've seen that, but all it means is that there's a state legislator in RI who believes that. They're just people, not "insiders" (unless you think that the supposed program is being run by the State of Rhode Island).

Logic lesson for you. Snidely and sarcastically sneering, "oh no they would never do that" is not proof, or a substitute for proof. There is a reason why you resort to sneering sarcasm: it's all you have. If you had actual evidence of "the operation" you would show it. Your certainty about your guesses won't cut it.

It's SO hard being the only person who really understands what's going on. You must be exhausted, trying to wake up the sheeple who are SO ungrateful when you tell them to look up..

Again, something that is being studied, discussed, and proposed for the future. That does not automatically mean that it's being done now. I did not say "that would never happen ever," that's a straw man.

Just like a future manned mission to Mars is something that's being seriously discussed, proposed, and researched. Lots of money spent, patents filed, etc. Does that mean that we currently have people on Mars?

Why are you trying to debate someone this dumb, you basically destroyed this guys entire argument and he's just spamming random insults and can't grasp why literally nothing he has linked is evidence of anything bad.

You're dealing with a loon that probably has a serious case of confirmation bias.

Yeh, talk to Laura Eisenhower about how we're not yet on Mars.

Thank you and good day

Laura Eisenhower

You can watch a video of her for a few minutes and quickly come to the realisation that she's a seriously messed-up individual.

Her profile here is a saddening read.

Or inspiring. Depending on where your allegiances lie.

A sad and pathetic fruit cake.

Just like a future manned mission to Mars is something that's being seriously discussed, proposed, and researched. Lots of money spent, patents filed, etc. Does that mean that we currently have people on Mars?

That's kind of a shitty example for you to use. No, we don't have a man on mars already. But there is a rover on Mars. The Orion missions are in part preparation to go to mars. There's a lot more going on than just "discussion and proposal."

No insult intended towards those working on Mars projects.

I'd say the comparison is spot on. test payloads are being injected into the stratosphere, and the effects are being interpolated into global models. What we don't have in either case is an actual launch.

Bullshit. They've been studying the effects of sulfur on contrail plumes since at least 1994. I know you've seen that study before, which is how I know you are a liar spreading deliberate misinformation, as opposed to simply being mistaken.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2001JD000813/full

Keep lying. We're all in the same boat.

What part of my last post was a lie? The bit about them doing geoengineering experiments in the stratosphere, or the bit about them modelling the results? I don't get you. You seem to call me a liar whether I'm agreeing with you or opposing you.

Wait, so you are saying at least some geoengineering is going on, but anyone that thinks they are seeing it is just imagining things?

If you'd ever read a word I said before attacking me you'd know that I am deeply worried about geoengineering and the effect it could have on the planet. Schemes like Stratospheric Aerosol Dispersal can't be properly tested before putting them into action, and then there will be no way back. It's insanity, and my worry is that commercial interests are wanting in on the action (if and when it starts in earnest). Other SRM schemes don't worry me as much. Maritime Cloud Brightening seems fairly benign and controllable, for instance.

But none of the schemes being suggested or even tested involve spraying huge 200-mile clouds of aluminium or anything else at six miles altitude, where airliners fly. SAD is done at twice that altitude, and MCB at sea level.

So the white trails across the sky really are just clouds of ice crystals, and their problem is not that they're poisonous, but the constant haze of cirrus cloud they create which traps heat and adds to global warming.

Contrails are killing the planet. The effect is so subtle we haven't noticed it yet, but it's happening. The once-blue skies are now often a haze of artificial cirrus, and it will only get worse as air travel increases. One way or another we have to make the skies blue again.

But none of the schemes being suggested or even tested involve spraying huge 200-mile clouds of aluminium or anything else at six miles altitude, where airliners fly. SAD is done at twice that altitude, and MCB at sea level.

Honestly, I just don't get your level of denial. You don't see a huge contradiction in saying there can be schemes done at sea level or higher than 6 miles, but anything between those two levels? Preposterous.

Read anything about SAD and they also always mention Mt. Pinatubo...can you please explain to me how it is that a volcano on the surface of the earth can measurably cool the Earth' climate, but Airplanes emitting sulfur aerosols would not? Rhetorical question. Of course it fucking would!

Contrails are killing the planet. The effect is so subtle we haven't noticed it yet, but it's happening. The once-blue skies are now often a haze of artificial cirrus, and it will only get worse as air travel increases. One way or another we have to make the skies blue again.

Fine. Couldn't agree more. But you are just full of shit if you think these are simply the same old contrails we've always seen. I used to bike commute to work everyday for over 10 years past an aiport. Never once in the first 8 years did I see a plane leave a trail that persisted and spread out to cover a huge portion of the sky in white. They clearly made some intentional change.

But just keep buying (and selling) the Koch Brothers bullshit pal...that's what you are doing everytime you repeat the lie that contrails are the same as they've always been. I at least hope you are getting paid for this shit.

Edit: also, I just realized you didn't even answer my question -

Wait, so you are saying at least some geoengineering is going on, but anyone that thinks they are seeing it is just imagining things?

can you please explain to me how it is that a volcano on the surface of the earth can measurably cool the Earth' climate, but Airplanes emitting sulfur aerosols would not?

If you read up on the Mt Pinatubo eruption you'll see that the sulphur went straight up 25 miles into the stratosphere. That's what happens with SAD as well. Putting sulphur into the atmosphere at airliner height would just make acid rain in a short time.

Anyone who looks at contrails and thinks they are looking at geoengineering is just imagining things believing a paranoid conspiracy theory that's been sold to them by the likes of Dane Wigington, who makes his living out of promoting scare stories.

who makes his living out of promoting scare stories.

What a preposterous thing to say when you already acknowledge that global warming is real, or is that just a scare story too. Besides, you've already acknowledged that at least some geoengineering has taken place, which you may retract since you are a liar.

Do you honestly think that all the American politicians are too stupid to realize that global warming is real? Do you honestly think they don't realize that something has to be done to stop it?

Edit: and are you really so out of touch with reality that you expect people to believe that the eruption of Mt. Pinatubo went directly 25 miles up into the atmosphere?

http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/1997/fs113-97/

From the article you linked to:

on June 15, the volcano exploded in a cataclysmic eruption that ejected more than 1 cubic mile (5 cubic kilometers) of material. The ash cloud from this climactic eruption rose 22 miles (35 kilometers) into the air.

And please cut out the insults.

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I can often see persistent contrails in the sky, which have been observed and documented for as long as there's been high-altitude air travel. Geoengineering SRM proposals generally would not look like that; they would involve releasing materials into the stratosphere, well above where commercial airliners fly. The goal would not be to create visible clouds, but rather to mimic the effect of volcanoes, which inject aerosols into the stratosphere.

Can you give an example of a diagram of a proposal from a primary scientific source, which shows that it would look like persistent contrails?

I like the bit where you didn't rebut or critique the argument. Oh so typical

He doesn't even understand the argument. He has watched What in the world are they spraying and now he's convinced he is part of a select band of earth warriors who have "Woken up" and are mankind's only hope against 'TPTB'. What's more, the rest of the world is divided into two camps .. the "Sheeple" who are too stupid to "Look up", and the evil shills and agents of disinformation which is anyone who asks for proof of their ridiculous claims, or presents sound scientific evidence that proves they are wrong.

You use logic and reason and rational inquiry and evidence to construct your understanding of the world. You need to understand he follows a different model. His model is "the government is totally evil, and therefore guilty of all evil things, including evil things I just made up." This is how they "just know" the government was responsible for, say, the Charleston Church massacre. And sandy hook. And chem trails and 911 and jade helm as precursor to martial law and implants and total surveillance and depopulation and hiding the cancer cure and FEMA camps and ...

You get the idea. It's always just one step. From "I hate the government" to any conclusion they feel like, facts be damned.

I could not agree with you more. jk you're an obvious shill, nice try obama/nwo/jews

You're funny. I like it best when you type in all caps.

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You claim to be an authority on chemtrails, but you don't even understand basic physics. It doesn't matter whether an aircraft is flying over desert or arctic tundra, the air at 30,000 feet will be about -50 degrees.

No, it's the temperature, which is -50 whether you are six miles above Nevada or six miles above the North Pole.

"Straw man" means to misrepresent someone's argument; how does that apply here?

Greatly exaggerating the staying power of contrails? How long do you think they can persist, and why do you think so?

Obviously you don't understand the first thing about the Troposphere if you expect conditions at ground level to have any bearing on what's happening at six miles altitude. FYI the temperature at airliner cruising height is about -50 Centigrade everywhere in the world, whether you are flying over the poles or the equator.

How is it "disinfo dissembling" if it's supported by ample documentation from the historical literature, going back to the WW2 era?

Not "in" a desert, but certainly "over" a desert. The conditions at over 25,000 feet don't match the conditions on the ground. That's why cirrus (ice) clouds have occurred naturally over deserts throughout history.

Such rage.

None of the material you presented this sub actually states that the Fed is using chemtrails, its all research and what WOULD happen if chemtrails were used.

As somebody unfamiliar with the details of the 'operation' I would like to know if it is the military that is supposed to do the spraying or commercial planes? Because if there is a commercial source for the stuff why is nobody getting a sample of jet fuel tested?

Enjoy your echo chamber.

Bravo!

Just subbed

I welcome input and skepticism, but denial won't be tolerated.

Welcome to the circlejerk, enjoy your stay!

Lol

'time for you to shut your fucking mouth and read'

brilliant way to win people over...

It'll win over smart, logical people who actually take the time to read the material thoroughly

No one else.

Have you read it? Would you be able to quote any passages you found which prove contrails are really chemtrails. Thanks.

Why don't you read it yourself? I'm not making any claims that anything is true.

You spot links about geo-engineering, which theory is well proven since it's effectiveness demonstrated during beijin olympic games and is a fact.
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/blog/2009/oct/01/china-cloud-seeding-parade

But how does that prove all that craziness on chem-trails VS what's called contrails, and is totally chem free.

I enjoyed the bluest sky since i was born on the eyjafjallajokull episode, so yes, planes flight reduces solar income significantly, with no chems involved.

Look: you see FNORDS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXZZbiC2Y9M

Ah get lost.

Everyone should also look into Karen Meghan - former air force environmental scientist that says specifically that Lockheed c130 and Boeing kc-135s are used to spray. I have found these to basically match the appearance of the unmarked spray planes I see over my area all the time.

Her name is Kristen Meghan and she has said nothing of the sort. "My whistleblowing is not related to chemtrails, it is related to industrial ground activities that overexposed the workers and they didn't want it reported, and since I took the samples, they wanted to demonize me in case I spoke out." - Kristen Meghan, USAF whistleblower.

Thank you for the correction! I believe this is the video where she mentions the specific plane models - it's also quite clear that she is acknowledging chemtrailing.

Edit: woops forgot link https://youtu.be/_XjLzPivKp8

She believes chemtrails are real, but she admits she has no professional experience to back up that position, and that what she knows came from watching What In The World Are They Spraying. In other words, she knows nothing that anyone else could get off the internet.

She is also a qualified environmental scientist and worked in the military for 9 years monitoring exactly these types of activities and has quit and come forward as a whistleblower - someone who saw an inexplicably large amount of the exact chemicals that are used in chemtrailing - if this isn't conclusive in itself, it's certainly corroborating evidence

Certainly, her background and qualifications are solid and they give her words much authority. But she's become a bit of a media whore and found she attracted a wider audience if she expanded her core message to include 'chemtrails'. Her admission that she got her info on chemtrails from WITWATS destroys her credibility though, in my eyes and the eyes of anyone who doesn't buy into the chemtrails conspiracy.

She witnessed huge and inexplicable amounts of aluminium, barium, and strontium oxides and sulfates - these are exactly the same materials found in air, soil, and water in sprayed areas - she mentions this in the video that I linked - I guess you didn't watch.

She's also a whistleblower, not a media whore. There's a massive distinction, though the Obama administration would have us all believe otherwise.

When whistleblowers are attacked like this, we all suffer. You're interfering with not only her right to speak, but our right to hear her speak out on this important issue.

I guess you don't like Sofia Smallstorm either - is she a media whore in your eyes as well?

That's a very unfair response. I admire her whistleblowing; she is very brave to speak out about the strange chemicals being brought onto her base. But at the same time, the military was quite right to sack her as a security risk. I watched evrything about her until quite recently. She never claimed to have any idea what the chemicals were for, and back then she never associated them with aircraft dispersal. As she said (and I quoted) her whistleblowing was about GROUND contamination. I will watch your vid to see if her message has suffered mission creep.

She only became a media whore AFTER accepting a few invitations to speak. She liked the attention. Good for her. But when she starts talking about chemtrails she loses most of her audience in favour of thrilling a few conspiracy minded people.

edit: I had to google Sofia Smallstrom. She seems to be an advocate of every conspiracy theory under the sun. Such people lack any critical thinking skills and have a high degree of gullibility.

edit 2: How am I "interfering with not only her right to speak, but our right to hear her speak out on this important issue"? I encourage people to read EVERYTHING on chemtrails, if they're interested. Even Wigington's website.

So here's my personal conspiracy theory about geo-engineering.

When 9/11 happened, and the US shut down its air traffic for a few days, day-time temperatures spiked noticeably enough to attract the attention of scientists. Theories emerged that aircraft contrails were having a cooling effect on the atmosphere, which was negated when they stopped flying during that brief window.

So, we've got a system designed here, to ensure that global temperatures go up when air traffic ceases. What could cause global commercial air traffic to cease? A major war, for starters. Now, what if it's a nuclear war? Now you're dealing with the prospect of nuclear winter.

What if our atmosphere has been carefully calibrated to ensure humankind's survival in the event of a nuclear war? What if someone with a lot more brain power than us has done the calculations, and ensured that any civilization-endangering temperature drop caused by a nuclear winter is offset (at least partially) by a spike in temperature caused by the withdrawal of the modulating effect of commercial air traffic upon the atmosphere?

Probably talkin' out my ass here.

These are people who can't organise a new health care registration website without totally ballsing it up. I think you give them far too much credit for organising stuff.

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yeah i dont think it's a good thing it's just dumb humans making dumb decisions for a short term benefit. much like most things in the world

you know its funny, that's what this religious nut job told me the other day. i think the chemicals are getting to your head.

well i know in certain areas of the u.s. you absolutely dont want to drink the water. back where i lived in wisconsin the water was full of minerals, fluoride, etc and you could tell after drinking it how it "clouded" your mind, not as sharp, etc. after i moved to hawaii, breathing fresh air, drinking clean water, and eating natural foods has really changed the way i think. it feels like this is the way i should feel.

those chemicals in the air, in the water, in food really hinder the consciousness of people and they dont realize it because those harmful chemicals accumulate in small amounts over time. but after being away from all of that it feels great. and by far the strongest of those factors was water. get a filter for your taps and even your shower. all i can say about that

I like the bit where you didn't rebut or critique the argument. Oh so typical

Really? Minute quantities of chemicals added to jet fuel are enough to create trails hundreds of miles long which would weigh hundreds of thousands of tonnes?

Your best link is a pdf made by a Chemtrail conspiracy website... Great.

How is it "disinfo dissembling" if it's supported by ample documentation from the historical literature, going back to the WW2 era?

Not "in" a desert, but certainly "over" a desert. The conditions at over 25,000 feet don't match the conditions on the ground. That's why cirrus (ice) clouds have occurred naturally over deserts throughout history.

Obviously you don't understand the first thing about the Troposphere if you expect conditions at ground level to have any bearing on what's happening at six miles altitude. FYI the temperature at airliner cruising height is about -50 Centigrade everywhere in the world, whether you are flying over the poles or the equator.

Nah, you're still a student and all you talk about is weed. Not to mention the pseudo science you spout in your comment history.

Nice try though, bud.

Just take a scroll through some of the comments under my original one for a good example of this.

I'm sure one or two of these guys are trolling lol. Also note you were at +0 before I up voted you.

It's absolutely ironic.

If you'd ever read a word I said before attacking me you'd know that I am deeply worried about geoengineering and the effect it could have on the planet. Schemes like Stratospheric Aerosol Dispersal can't be properly tested before putting them into action, and then there will be no way back. It's insanity, and my worry is that commercial interests are wanting in on the action (if and when it starts in earnest). Other SRM schemes don't worry me as much. Maritime Cloud Brightening seems fairly benign and controllable, for instance.

But none of the schemes being suggested or even tested involve spraying huge 200-mile clouds of aluminium or anything else at six miles altitude, where airliners fly. SAD is done at twice that altitude, and MCB at sea level.

So the white trails across the sky really are just clouds of ice crystals, and their problem is not that they're poisonous, but the constant haze of cirrus cloud they create which traps heat and adds to global warming.

Contrails are killing the planet. The effect is so subtle we haven't noticed it yet, but it's happening. The once-blue skies are now often a haze of artificial cirrus, and it will only get worse as air travel increases. One way or another we have to make the skies blue again.

who makes his living out of promoting scare stories.

What a preposterous thing to say when you already acknowledge that global warming is real, or is that just a scare story too. Besides, you've already acknowledged that at least some geoengineering has taken place, which you may retract since you are a liar.

Do you honestly think that all the American politicians are too stupid to realize that global warming is real? Do you honestly think they don't realize that something has to be done to stop it?

Edit: and are you really so out of touch with reality that you expect people to believe that the eruption of Mt. Pinatubo went directly 25 miles up into the atmosphere?

http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/1997/fs113-97/

From the article you linked to:

on June 15, the volcano exploded in a cataclysmic eruption that ejected more than 1 cubic mile (5 cubic kilometers) of material. The ash cloud from this climactic eruption rose 22 miles (35 kilometers) into the air.

And please cut out the insults.