Exactly, they want it to be near impossible to repeal.

[deleted]

"When all else fails; vote from the roof-tops."

• unknown

Only in one country.

US will be 2nd or third world country in the next 10-20 years, besides a few tech based holdout cities

I really doubt that

http://www.salon.com/2013/12/10/look_at_the_stats_america_resembles_a_poor_country_partner/

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/six-ways-america-is-like-a-third-world-country-20140305

http://www.thenation.com/article/174453/how-america-became-third-world-country

salon is soo trustworthy (sarcasm!) that I'd rather take CIA at face value before believing that site. note: I don't believe anything CIA says

edit: rolling stone + UVA rape hoax? no thanks!

Sources might be meh, but the point is still spot and covered by great other sources as well

These sources are not "meh", they're known propaganda sites. And let me see the other "great" sources, because until then it's nothing more than disinfo.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/news/american-decline/

http://rt.com/op-edge/266824-america-empire-decline-washington/

http://www.drudgereportarchive.com/drudge-report-link-topic/america%20decline/

http://www.infowars.com/34-signs-that-america-is-in-decline/

A Harvard Professors take on the decline:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Laie6uI3a4

Sources don't really matter in this case because you can triple fact check each single point made and find the stats are true

Thanks.

you can triple fact check

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/burden-of-proof

Too lazy to fact check i see, sigh.

Maybe go to library and read a book, or pdf online?

The Unwinding by George Packer should fill you in nicely

Or maybe you're too lazy to check the rules of arguing.

There's no point in arguing/debating if you lack the context of a vast array of details.

No. If you make a claim and someone asks for proof then you provide it, not this "you can google it yourself" shit. Also, there're different sources of knowledge that contradict each other, so debates are a good way to shed light on incorrect details. Since I claimed your sources as worthless all you do is attacking me instead of my point.

I understand, however, those "worthless" sources, did you read and check if what they say is true? Or do you simply want me to post the facts for you so you don't have to?

I did check them but as these sites are generally spreading bullshit I rather not believe what they say.

to break it down:

• RT: anything close to a government should automatically be suspicious and they have repeatedly been caught lying
• salon, huffpost and rolling stone are well known feminist clickbait shitholes
• infowars: I've seen it slammed as disinfo at multiple places (even here), it's also too sensationalist to my taste (another red flag)
• drudgereport asks for login

Okay, I have a better way. Give me some sites/sources that you do trust, or have respect for, or at least will consider

I trust nothing blindly. I'm yet to come across a news site that's actually neutral (reuters maybe coming close). Apart from that: no obvious and overwhelming political bias, respect towards readers (not the condescending tone of leftist media) and preferably containing/sourcing proof that can be scientifically tested.

http://www.reuters.com/subjects/income-inequality/massachusetts

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/01/18/us-usa-obama-economy-idUSKBN0KR0HD20150118

Thank you for a better source. It's good to see that even the USA can't evade the fate of huge empires. Let the cycle continue.

It's good to see? No, not really. Its not good to see history repeating itself. Wherever you are from will eventually collapse and you will be enslaved by a system that's worse than the system enslaving us all now anyway.

The cycle will not continue. Those elites are going to be defeated in the end

What I meant: no big empire lasts forever. Surely a new big tyranny will rise (and there're a few already) but this one will fall. I think I'll pretty much feel a war with Russia (if it happens) because I live close to Ukraine, so I might not even be alive when (if) the NWO comes to fruit. We'll see.

Still doubt it, our military is pretty much the best.

Military has literally nothing to do with it.

Still doubt it, our military is pretty much the best.

that's a pretty good reason, why we're going broke.

Soviet union had the second most powerful military when their country collapsed. Are you certain the number one spot couldn't have the same happen?

I hear Rome had a decent army too.

Persia too?

But they weren't America

flag appears in background jets and eagles fly above and the national anthem starts playing to the beat of fireworks

What do you mean by that?

I don't think our country (USA) will become a third world country.

Because of the military?

I think that train of logic just derailed.

You did not read the articles. We already are.

Still doubt it, our military is pretty much the best.

That has nothing to do with the decline of the U.S. Plus Chinese military is catching up pretty fast

Uhh, so you wanna be forced to fight wars to preserve our prosperity...which we already had, but was sold out for short term profits....you wanna be forced to fight for that? Because they actually pay soldiers at the moment. When the money dies, you'll be forced to fight. It'll be worse than the draft. THEY should fight this war, not us. We aren't profiting from the down fall of America, they are. Go right ahead and volunteer to fight their wars for them while they sit back and laugh at you.

North Korea has like the 4th biggest army in the world bro

So was the Roman military. All empires will fall.

In a way, you're right. The U.S. military is the glue that holds the petrodollar together.

Until it doesn't.

Not coincidentally, we now produce a lot of oil ourselves.

Which mostly doesn't have a US presence. Aside from a few hundred bases on US soil.

Uh, yeah.

Also:

http://www.usconstitution.net/xconst_A6.html

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

Pretty clear.

It's the reason Social Security was constitutional six weeks after being struck down under another name. (ILO charter revision, now part of the UN.)

It's a shame they don't teach it in school.

edit: italics -> bold

Man. Only way I learned it was in law school. So sad how it's not a necessity.

If they did teach it in school, the smart kids would be wondering whether this "democracy" is just a sham.

Couldn't have that, now could we?

We need to make it so corporations are not considered "people"...we needed to do it long ago. This is blatantly usurping our personal freedom in the name of making it easier for international corporations (NOT living people) to establish hegemony over pretty much everything. Fuck this. Where's the reset button on this nightmare?

Reid v Covert (1957) held that treaties cannot supersede the constitution.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reid_v._Covert

Interesting, although wiki has already spelled out the loophole:

although the case itself was with regard to an executive agreement, not a "treaty" in the U.S. legal sense, and the agreement itself has never been ruled unconstitutional.

So that will be another opportunity for the Supreme Court to shit on the Constitution and legislate from the bench.

The actual text of the decision doesn't back that up. It's fairly clear about it. This case is actually the only time someone petitioned for a rehearing of a case and won.

You think things are bad now, wait until this goes into effect....

Better not tell the folks. Some people are rather attached to that 'god damned piece of paper".

Out of curiosity, how else would an agreement between countries be negotiated other than as a treaty?

Such an agreement would be a treaty. But the TPP affects governance within borders for countries. To use a real potential example, if New Zealand has a law saying no company can charge more than X wallaby-dollars for a medication, under their law, that's an internal rule. This agreement would essentially undermine such laws, giving a corporation such as Pfizer authorization to sue to remove said law as an impediment to their business. This is therefore not a normal treaty because it shunts legislative control from the people and their government to corporate actors.

That's standard though, most countries are part of various treaties that affects governance within borders. The EU, the UN, the WTO are all built on treaties that affect member countries' governance, not to mention the dozens of trade treaties most countries are in that standardize various industry regulations.

If a country feels like the negatives outweigh the positives they can leave the treaty and have thier independence back.

Not if in so doing they violate, say, a country's constitution. Let's go back to the US. Let's say Blizzard approaches a TPP tribunal(which is not covered, if you were wondering, by any of the statutes in this country, nor does it have any of the protections or flexibility of our own legal system) and that tribunal, which consists of interchangeable corporate attourneys taking turns as advocates and judges, decides that Penny Arcade making a comic about a Dickwolf quest in WoW doesn't fall under fair use. Now in a US court, Blizzard could still make their case, but PA'd be protected, it would fail because of our system of precedent and case law. In fact, it's so obvious that they don't have a dick-limb to stand on Blizzard would likely end up liable for PA's court costs. With the TPP, free speech guarantees don't matter; if the tribunal rules against you, the nature of the treaty supercedes our court system entirely and PA is suddenly on the hook for a trademark violation as well as tortious damage to Blizzard's corporate image, which is now covered, literally, in penises.

This is also true of sharing files, whether private or copyrighted works, so Bauhaus could conceivably sue if pics of Peter Murphy's cock caught in a Sticky Fingers record jacket were posted to /r/fiftyfifty, which he attempted because Murphy's Member is so much smaller than Jagger's he was sure it would fit. In the UK Bauhaus'd be out of luck because they have the GRR Martin "floppy weiner" precedent on the books, but maybe his johnson was damaged in the attempt and now Germany wants the pic taken down unless the wang-blood is recolored green due to their bizarre and frankly inexplicable violence code. They, too, can petition for removal of Peter's peter from the internet and if the TPP says the pp has to go, they might be able to get the offending ISP shut down over a single trouser snake.

To make this more troubling, this would also affect copyrighted pictures, so if Peru decides to pass a law taking a big steamer on Walt Disney's corpse by saying that after 100 years your copyright is over, no matter how many ex-celebrities/congressmen are killed by trees. So while everyone in Lima is dunking roast Guinea Pig legs ala 101 Dalmations in XO sauce and doing Maleficent shooters until there's no more grape Schnapps south of Costa Rica, Eisner takes a break from eating the foreskin of gentile babies long enough to petition the TPP and the next thing you know they've shut down every dollar store in the country.

And this deal is secret, so this is only the shit we know about.

Goblin Engineers did 9/11.

I like the use of Blizzard in your analogy, too bad WoW is on a downward spiral right now though.

I'm mostly doing Hearthstone these days.

Tanaan jungle sucks, nothing to do there for high geared toons except for grinding for a few mounts/pets. HFC is fun though.

I meant the card game.

I was giving you an update on WoW

Ah, I see. Then thanks. How are druids doing?

Balance is super fun and kitty does high DPS

And this deal is secret, so this is only the shit we know about.

its secret while its being negotiated. this is similar to the Constitution, which was also negotiated in secret at the constitutional convention before being sent for open approval to the individual states

Not if in so doing they violate, say, a country's constitution

as I mentioned, the US is already party to various treaties similar to the TPP in regards to what your talking about. From TRIPS(as part of the WTO) to WIPO, enforced in the US as DMCA, to NAFTA. In general Every Free trade agreement we enter has IP provisions in it that have the same power as any other treaty.

the main criticisms of these treaties is that they Favor the United states too much. The developing world makes tons of money out of making generic versions of expensive US made medicines or software and then reselling them in markets with lax IP law. US has of course always been trying to find ways to protect american IP.

You have to keep in mind for this agreement to ever actually be agreed upon it will have to be something that will pass through one or two dozen legislatures. most of the leaks have been proposal drafts from various blocks trying to get this to shape out their way. There is every reason to believe the agreement, if it happens, will be a watered down version of the individual proposals

as I mentioned, the US is already party to various treaties similar to the TPP in regards to what your talking about. From TRIPS(as part of the WTO) to WIPO, enforced in the US as DMCA, to NAFTA. In general Every Free trade agreement we enter has IP provisions in it that have the same power as any other treaty.

Yes. And each of these undermines the liberty of everyone it touches. The WTO is a bunch of unelected fucks, there's no transparency, there's no accountability, there's no sovereignty. We've seen them willing to destroy small countries' economies, and good jobs, to derve the purpose of Dole, Chiquita etc as in the case of Ecuador. All in the name of so-called free trade, but really in the name of corporate world ownership.

the main criticisms of these treaties is that they Favor the United states too much.

They favor our corporations, not our people. They favor the transfer of capital upward. They favor the concentration of power in the hands of the few.

There is every reason to believe the agreement, if it happens, will be a watered down version of the individual proposals

A watered-down fuck-you to the working poor is still a big enough fuck-you to oppose. This agreement is an affront to human rights, to sovereignty, to self-determination of the individual, and to good sense. The free-trade cock-monglers who beat the drums for it are the same fuckfaces that oppose regulation in all forms, the same ones who say that the free market is the answer to everything but then ignore the fact that nearly everything real or thought of is already owned and not free. They are, in short, on the wrong side of history, and if you support this then so are you.

I guess what I don't understand is why the TPP gets such apocalyptic criticism, when you yourself agree its not fundamentally different from the web of other treaties we are already part of.

Me: "Hey, these treaties have fucked us, fucked us right in half, in the past."

You: "Yes they have. So no reason to not have another one."

have thier independence back.

Enough said...

what do you think about the Geneva convention?

That shit clearly had zero affect on our torture of innocent civilians.

innocent civilians unlawful combatants

FTFY

What Zionism have to do with any of this? Cecil Rhodes was not a jew.

Article VI clearly states that the Constitution and treaties made under the authority of the United States shall be the supreme Law of the Land.

If TPP passes both legislatures and the executive branch, then it was made under the authority of the United States whether we like it or not.

whether we like it or not.

An organization that has a 92% disapproval rating and for whom only 25% of the population participated in their election, DOES NOT CONSTITUTE the authority of the United States.

edit: this comment has been marked for downvotes

Actually it does

There's nothing about approval numbers in the constitution

It does, however, constitute the authority of THE UNITED STATES.

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The 75% of the population who refuse to participate deserve whats coming. If that 75% revolts and takes back what is theirs, then they are worthy of respect. The current level of apathy at all stages of action only reinforces ideas that American are worth less than they ever were.

Because we had so much choice in who we could elect.

What? Most of the 75% are either ignorant or complacent. Same as the 25% who actually partake in the vote. That's leaving a mere 0% of the population who actually can understand what is going on. The media tells us nothing and the only people who we can vote for are rigged to be there. This is a crony capitalist democracy and it is bs.

Yes, because I Joe Blow can compete with superpacs.

You think this wouldn't happen under Romney? Don't kid yourself they work for the same people

Voting doesnt work. We have to go back to a fully manual vote system for it to actually work. The voting machines are fixed, easily hacked and manipulated.

Nonsense.

It is coming whether they vote or not.

Why for you always sucking that govt dick, /u/FortHouston

Until they conflict. Bye bye constitution.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reid_v._Covert

sigh nice selective bolding. all that says is that treaties are law. What power would treaties have if our government didn't back them up? Who would engage in diplomacy with a government that didn't make guarantee to enforce treaties its part of?

That's the point. Have you read this treaty?

There is no treaty yet it's still being negotiated

have thier independence back.

Enough said...

Not if in so doing they violate, say, a country's constitution. Let's go back to the US. Let's say Blizzard approaches a TPP tribunal(which is not covered, if you were wondering, by any of the statutes in this country, nor does it have any of the protections or flexibility of our own legal system) and that tribunal, which consists of interchangeable corporate attourneys taking turns as advocates and judges, decides that Penny Arcade making a comic about a Dickwolf quest in WoW doesn't fall under fair use. Now in a US court, Blizzard could still make their case, but PA'd be protected, it would fail because of our system of precedent and case law. In fact, it's so obvious that they don't have a dick-limb to stand on Blizzard would likely end up liable for PA's court costs. With the TPP, free speech guarantees don't matter; if the tribunal rules against you, the nature of the treaty supercedes our court system entirely and PA is suddenly on the hook for a trademark violation as well as tortious damage to Blizzard's corporate image, which is now covered, literally, in penises.

This is also true of sharing files, whether private or copyrighted works, so Bauhaus could conceivably sue if pics of Peter Murphy's cock caught in a Sticky Fingers record jacket were posted to /r/fiftyfifty, which he attempted because Murphy's Member is so much smaller than Jagger's he was sure it would fit. In the UK Bauhaus'd be out of luck because they have the GRR Martin "floppy weiner" precedent on the books, but maybe his johnson was damaged in the attempt and now Germany wants the pic taken down unless the wang-blood is recolored green due to their bizarre and frankly inexplicable violence code. They, too, can petition for removal of Peter's peter from the internet and if the TPP says the pp has to go, they might be able to get the offending ISP shut down over a single trouser snake.

To make this more troubling, this would also affect copyrighted pictures, so if Peru decides to pass a law taking a big steamer on Walt Disney's corpse by saying that after 100 years your copyright is over, no matter how many ex-celebrities/congressmen are killed by trees. So while everyone in Lima is dunking roast Guinea Pig legs ala 101 Dalmations in XO sauce and doing Maleficent shooters until there's no more grape Schnapps south of Costa Rica, Eisner takes a break from eating the foreskin of gentile babies long enough to petition the TPP and the next thing you know they've shut down every dollar store in the country.

And this deal is secret, so this is only the shit we know about.

That's the point. Have you read this treaty?

http://www.reuters.com/subjects/income-inequality/massachusetts

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/01/18/us-usa-obama-economy-idUSKBN0KR0HD20150118