If you build it...

I assume him and the Kardashians were sitting around a table doing some sort of ceremony designed to decide who has to be the next publicity whore and Bruce just drew the shortest straw...

Right on. He's a freak-of-nature and a Hollywood whore.

Yikes

How do you know he is not just doing it for the money/reality TV show? How old is the guy again (65)? Better late than never huh?

How do you know it isn't genuine?

Aside from that, you called her a freak of nature, which prompted my response. Even if she is faking it (I see now real reason to believe this), calling a transgender a freak is bigoted.

That's the whole point, I do not think he is being genuine. I have nothing against Trans people. However, if this man is doing it for the money/fame, then yes, he is a freak-of-nature (imo).

How could you possibly know that she is faking?

Do you have an evidence? Can you read her mind? Do you have a close relationship with the family?

As far as I'm concerned, if an adult tells me they want to identify as a different gender, I should respect that, no matter what I feel about their motivations.

Further, say she is faking, what harm is she actually doing? If this wasn't the thing people who follow this type of thing are concerned with, there would be some other celebrity fad to follow. I dislike celebrity worship as much as the next guy, but its not like Kaitlyn Jenner is the thing keeping people from becoming activists.

In fact, even if it isn't genuine, the whole saga serves to help transgender acceptance in America and around the world, which is objectively a good thing.

Chromosomes. He is biologically male.

And who are you to say they can't choose to identify as a gender aside from what their chromosomes indicate?

Why gives you that authority?

Slippery slope alert

AYAL?

In what way?

Science, biology.

But socially, who says they can't. What rule exists where someone born with a penis must identify themselves as "he"?

Wow. Seriously?

Yep. What gives you the right to tell people how they should identify?

Biology the person's chromosomes... Is that so hard to understand? No amount of surgery hormone therapy changes a persons chromosomes. Does not matter what is on the outside Dr. Frankenstein it's what's on the inside that determines what a person is. It is not my opinion its fact.

Of course, but you understand that, as a progressive society, most people now accept that not everyone feel comfortable in the skin their biology afforded them? So we accept that they may want to identify as a different gender? At least here in Canada, almost everyone I know is cool with that. After all, its not like it actually effects me.

So, again I ask. Who are you to tell people that they can't identify socially as something other than their biological organs indicate?

It is not for me to say. I have no power what a person does with their body. I will actually get real with you. I have two close friends who are transgender. People I have known all my life. One mtf one ftm. Both are pretty far along in the process and I have nothing against what they choose to do with their bodies. Every life is a personal journey.

But the way it is portrayed in the media is disgusting. Bruce Jenner makes what my friends go through look so fake. He never suffered anything. He has never experienced what young poor trans people feel. Imagine being a poor young person who can't afford what Cait can. Imagine how someone feels who can't afford to continue treatment when they loose a job.

I think what Caitlin is doing is driving a nail in the coffin of true trans acceptance. He is not trans. He is a cross dresser. My friend who spent her life savings to become how she really feels inside is not Caitlin. Caitlin is a fake. A fraud and a divide and conquer tool.

You know nothing. Because my opinion is my opinion does not mean I respect someone who is trans. I do not. I merely disagree philosophically with the idea one gender can become another. The trans is a gender in itself. I respect them and do not mis gender them. But cover girl doesn't cover boy.

What a mature and empathetic approach to human sexuality and gender identity you've displayed here

It is not for me to say. I have no power what a person does with their body. I will actually get real with you. I have two close friends who are transgender. People I have known all my life. One mtf one ftm. Both are pretty far along in the process and I have nothing against what they choose to do with their bodies. Every life is a personal journey.

But the way it is portrayed in the media is disgusting. Bruce Jenner makes what my friends go through look so fake. He never suffered anything. He has never experienced what young poor trans people feel. Imagine being a poor young person who can't afford what Cait can. Imagine how someone feels who can't afford to continue treatment when they loose a job.

I think what Caitlin is doing is driving a nail in the coffin of true trans acceptance. He is not trans. He is a cross dresser. My friend who spent her life savings to become how she really feels inside is not Caitlin. Caitlin is a fake. A fraud and a divide and conquer tool.

You know nothing. Because my opinion is my opinion does not mean I respect someone who is trans. I do not. I merely disagree philosophically with the idea one gender can become another. The trans is a gender in itself. I respect them and do not mis gender them. But cover girl doesn't cover boy.

I think it has more to do with his celebrity and how much he is milking the situation to make money. I doubt ok cares about the average trans person.

Well, until OP bothers to present any evidence to support their claims, I'm not inclined to believe you.

Generally people who give a fuck about transgender people don't declare their identity a scam. Not without good evidence at least.

Edit: added

You're missing the point, it's beyond transgeneder... If Jenner could make millions for simply dressing like a woman, why not? especially since he didn't get irreversible procedures. Its just odd, that's all, and being in "reality" entertainment, it seems like a possibility. You shouldn't go around accusing everyone of being a bigot.

What evidence do you have to justify the claim in your title?

It's a theory.

Thats not what the title says. Thats a claim.

You gotta understand. In conspiracy, some stuff is actual evidence, some stuff is just an idea open for discussion and other stuff is just a premise.

And you gotta understand that a title like "Caitlin is fake" is a claim, not some idea for a discussion.

All you are doing is making an excuse for people making claims with no evidence.

This thread isnt "just asking questions"

Its a premise... Thats how it works around here. A premise to work off of and discuss possible angles... Like having a discussion about the possibilities whether or not thats your own opinion.

No problem. I think some people are just looking to a. Be offended or b. Feel better than others.

A premise to work off of and discuss possible angles... Like having a discussion about the possibilities whether or not thats your own opinion.

So basically people can claim whatever they want here without being expected to actually produce and evidence? And if anyone asks for evidence they are told not to, as you are doing now?

So, that seems to me the absolute worst way to pursue any form of truth. But, I'll bet if I asked, most people here would say this is the best place to find truth. Sounds like the community wants to have their cake and eat it too? They want immunity from being called out on their wild, evidenceless assertions, but also want to be taken seriously as pursuers of truth.

Its a thought experiment.... The concept seems to be beyond you. Sorry.

See, I thought the point was to determine truth. Didn't realize that threads proclaiming something to be absolutely true, and a bunch of other people agreeing that yes, it was true, was a thought experiment?

Seems more to me like a circlejerk. Especially the way you are continually trying to convince me that skepticism is bad here.

Those people agree with the premise, others look at it and think ok well its possible, etc... You find truth by asking questions and considering different things. Its also helpful to approach things as if you believe it to see what evidence there might be. Its a great skill to be able to approach something you dont believe with the mindset as if you do...i feel like youre just playing PC police and/or looking to be offended,

You find truth by asking questions and considering different things.

Then actually doing the work by questioning them and finding evidence that either supports or discredits them. You can't skip that step, its the important one.

The only thing that offends in this thread is the absolute lack of skepticism being displayed. Your attempts to convince me that somehow asking questions of people's conclusions is bad is seriously disheartening.

Right, which is why threads like this are useful... You get a variety of opinions, maybe someone finds and posts a link or a story... Could be anything. I dont understand what your problem is, youre clearly not on the same pAge.

My problem is nobody seems to give two shits about evidence. Aside from me, no one even questioned OP's assertion. Just some responsibles from people agreeing and accusing me of having some sort of agenda for wanting some evidence.

Because it's a premise....people either agree if they agree or if they don't agree, they come at it from a neutral perspective and say whether they think it's possible, probable, or not at all... I think you're taking this the wrong way.... If you want this thread to be your "ha look at how dumb r/conspiracy is!" example, go right ahead. I'm just saying to the crowd here, it's just an idea being thrown around,

All I did was ask for evidence for a claim, then responded to comments as they were addressed to me. Not sure how you attributed all these other motivations to me.

Look, lets end this.

There is none aside from circumstantial....IT IS A PREMISE. OP came up with the idea and posted here to see what others think. What don't you get?

Then the title is wrong and the tone of the OP is wrong. If they just wanted to speculate with no evidence they should not have made declarations like "caitlyn is a liar".

People use language to differentiate intentions in discussion. If OP had said, "I think it is suspicious that this Jenner situation is getting so much attention, thoughts?" Or something along those lines.

Calling someone a liar in the title is not an invitation for a discussion, its a claim. I have every right to question it and it is extremely disheartening that you are trying to tell me I shouldn't.

I'm done. Good luck not asking for evidence, but I'm going to keep doing it.

I think it's because op knows most frequent visitors here will understand his intent.

And again I've never said you shouldn't question anything why do you keep saying that?

Ooh, I see...just checked your history... You is a trollolololo

I think it's because op knows most frequent visitors here will understand his intent.

Seems like a flimsy assumption. There wording was very clearly an assertion and a claim.

And again I've never said you shouldn't question anything why do you keep saying that?

Because you've spent a dozen comments trying to tell me a shouldn't be asking for evidence for a very, very clear assertion. The idea that this sub has some different idea of how the English language works is absurd. This is textbook "just asking questions" techniques, in which someone makes a clear claim or attack, and when Some asks them to back it up, all of a sudden they are "just asking questions" or "presenting an idea". It's a laughably transparent attempt to remove responsibility for their own claims.

No I'm saying this is a premise....if it's a premise that interests you, then go look for evidence. Comment with what you found or didn't find, and tell your opinion on the premise....you just want to think we are all a bunch of idiots that jump to conclusions over 3 words.

Maybe encourage your fellow forum members to use the english language correctly because this post is worded as an assertion.

If I make a thread called:

/u/AlwaysTurning is a member of the United States government paid to deconstruct the conspiracy community from the inside. He is also a White Supremacist.

Am I justified in telling you that you should not be asking for justification of this claim? Does it really seem like I am just presenting a premise, or making a claim against you? You know damn well which on it is.

But, dont bother answering it to me, now that you've resorted to name calling, you can go ahead and fuck off.

Maybe if you explored the forum for purposes other than debunking and trolling you would pick up on the environment.

I've been on this forum for years. Its clear you dont like when ideas are challenged, but thats what I like to do.

Unfortunatly, saying that here in r/conspiracy we dont justify our claims isn't gunna stop me from asking for it.

Sorry I busted up the circlejerk, I should let you all tell each other Caitlyn was a filthy liar in peace, rather than bother you with my pesky skepticism.

[deleted]

Ohh autistic accusation, I like that one

[deleted]

Aww, look at you try to tell me about my life! So angry! I really got to you eh?

"Goddamn guy, asking for people to provide evidence, he must be an ignorant pathetic fuck"

I was trying to bail from this convo but its fun again. Cmon big guy, keep the saltiness coming!

You can say I'm angry if you want but I've really just been chilling, sippin whisky and trying to explain the post to you. Trollers gonna troll. Goodnight honey buns!

When I was trying to have a discussion with you I was taking you seriously, but when you got all pissy and very clearly very angry with me (Calm people dont spit out that many insults), I get a chance to laugh at your lapse into childish tantrum.

I think my favorite was the autistic one. Good stuff!

Maybe don't tell people not to ask questions in the future. Have a good one.

You are a trolllll

If you look at OPs reply to me it confirms that this is meant as premise to open conversation.... Just like the other similar posts here. You don't care about that though, enjoy reaffirming your own views that we are idiots by ignoring what we are saying....bbyeeeeee

You don't care about that though, enjoy reaffirming your own views that we are idiots by ignoring what we are saying....bbyeeeeee

What? What possibly led you to that assumption? Oh wait, sorry, you dont like when people ask for evidence for clear assertions.

Your posting history.

What about it? Do I smell another shill accusation?

No you're just a pathetic human being that spends way to much time arguing with people that you have no intention of trying to understand. You're either trolling, which is pretty lame, or this is how you feel important which is even more pathetic. Whatever makes you happy I guess.

Grrrrr so mad! This is fantastic. Keep it coming!

Night night wittle baby.

desperately tries to appear lighthearted and not bothered just moments after an insult filled, multi comment tantrum

Ps.. I never said skepticism is bad.

But you are telling me to stop expressing skepticism in this thread and trying to tell me that people shouldn't have to back up their assertions with evidence.

That's you basically saying skepticism is bad.

Its comparable to playing devils advocate... You may not believe it, but approach it as if you do and think of reasons its plausible, probable, or not at all.

Well, part of transgender (as well as all LGBT) acceptance is having the respect to not demand someone to justify their gender identity or sexuality. Could she be faking it? Of course. Does that mean OP is justified in calling her a liar with no evidence to back it up... fuck no.

I used the term bigot in response to someone who referred to her as a freak of nature. That comes as bigoted. (The user explained a little better what they meant, and while I don't agree, I don't necessarily think that it is bigoted anymore)

I interpreted the 'freak of nature' bit as them referring to her willingness to exploit the situation and make tons of money. I see you're poi,t tho.

Bruce is a republican who voiced an opinion against gay marriage. Dude is scamming the community.

http://m.ranker.com/list/top-10-anti-gay-activists-caught-being-gay/joanne

Just because someone advocates a political stance doesn't really say anything about their actual sexuality or gender identity

Tells something about their integrity.

All it tells you is that your argument about Jenner's previous political leanings is irrelevant.

People should be happy with what they are.

Who are you to tell people how to be happy?

Who are you a plastic surgery spokesman?

Seriously man, wtf. You are just fighting everyone here. This is /r/conspiracy. You are not discussing things. You are just fighting. You want some sort of proof. 'I Am Cait'.
When I first heard about the whole transgender thing I was like sure, cool whatever, good on him for being who he wants to be, just thought the announcement seemed very staged. Then when I heard of that show, a bell went off and all I could think was.. That's too bad. Maybe that's the woman in him wanting to flaunt himself, but it looks more to me like he is imprisoning himself.

You want some sort of proof

On what fucking planet am I living on where this is something to comdemn someone for?

This is /r/conspiracy

Oh is evidence not important here? I assumed it would be?

You are not discussing things.

I'm the only one in this thread addressing the OP's claim.

You are just fighting

It is not my fault people are disagreeing with me. I will address responses directed at me.

You claim to have transgender friends. Call them up, tell them that and see how that goes.

In what way?

Of course, but you understand that, as a progressive society, most people now accept that not everyone feel comfortable in the skin their biology afforded them? So we accept that they may want to identify as a different gender? At least here in Canada, almost everyone I know is cool with that. After all, its not like it actually effects me.

So, again I ask. Who are you to tell people that they can't identify socially as something other than their biological organs indicate?

But you are telling me to stop expressing skepticism in this thread and trying to tell me that people shouldn't have to back up their assertions with evidence.

That's you basically saying skepticism is bad.

AYAL?

Maybe if you explored the forum for purposes other than debunking and trolling you would pick up on the environment.

desperately tries to appear lighthearted and not bothered just moments after an insult filled, multi comment tantrum