I made this same post in /r/ufos and got no response at all, so maybe posting here will get some eyes on it and inform some people who previously were not informed.

It doesn't really get any more "world news" than this, yet people (beyond the experiencers and a few brave souls like the astronauts who went to the moon) rarely talk about it - it's a lot like how even up to the month before the Wright Brothers powered flight, "scientists" were debunking and even actively ridiculing the possibility of such a thing ever happening and the people who worked on it, 'it violates known physical laws and scientific realities', they would say - or like how in the decades leading up to our trip to the moon, "scientists" and university professors and department heads were making studies up about how it was impossible to send a rocket to the moon because the fuel required to get there would weigh more than the whole mass of the known universe (does that argument sound familiar to anyone?) because they were unaware of future scientific developments like using gravity to assist the trip.

Just so you all know, major historical developments? They only become "major historical developments" retroactively, after everyone has come to accept them. While they are being studied and handled by people initially, they tend to be ignored or ridiculed - or actively fought against, or ignored, or suppressed by whatever establishment they threaten. Alien life is going to be one of them - and it already is one in the defense community. It isn't like a new drug or mathematical formula, it's a cosmological game-changer that could upset the established and traditional social order of the entire planet we live on - that's why it's being kept secret by the great powers. I would wager that it's also a big reason why the great nations of the world realize they need to cooperate - because simple destruction resulting from war has never before in history stopped anyone from fighting them, look at WWI or II. Massive loss of life doesn't really seem to discourage them until the ETs showed up and started flying around SAC bases.

now everyone who reads this post has an early seat to a major historic development for mankind.

Well, thing is, this was apparently just an exercise created by a cryptologist...

http://www.openminds.tv/nsa-practices-deciphering-et-signals-668

OP "wants to believe"

Op was banned or removed his account:

https://www.reddit.com/user/yuspyinbros

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:YmZNSPAH3ZgJ:https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/3miw1n/hey_guys_the_nsa_declassifieddisclosed_the/+&cd=1&hl=pl&ct=clnk&gl=uk

[deleted]

Why would someone go through all of this commenting and posting to just delete the account right quick?

It was a one day old account, I can only imagine he had the intent of angering people or promoting a website and/or false information.

Because of his incoherent comments, I think there are likely some form of mental issues involved. But that's a meaningless opinion.

Seems odd but yeah maybe drugs and mental illness fueled the postings. I personally would like to see more ufo type conspiracy in the forum over geopolitics and tyranny.

Come over to /r/UFOs

oh, that's strange, so these are exercises created by a cryptologist too?

https://youtu.be/wsEd_b1C8DY?list=PLiXPew3wMf6firzsoZOhXeSMOCuzNbiuF&t=26 (astronaut Gordon Cooper)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1Dm1_zFk0Y (Colonel USAF Charles Halt)

https://youtu.be/tYU_tr5K5ws?t=20

https://youtu.be/u7mEnmx1HIo?list=PLiXPew3wMf6firzsoZOhXeSMOCuzNbiuF&t=17 (Colonel USAF Ross Dedrickson)

https://youtu.be/8fnSkLV7s0k?t=23

https://youtu.be/LJ9RGdHlA5M?t=22 (Brigadier General Stephen Lovekin, esq. Army cryptographer in the Pentagon from 1959-61.)

https://youtu.be/DDg_6W2UIS8?t=26

https://youtu.be/mhmGdralRmE?t=54 (Dr. Edgar Mitchell, astronaut, moonwalker, telling you about aliens)

lol, I have no idea man - I'm not making any definitive claims other than stating that the article I posted (from a pro-UFO site no less) is pretty persuasive.

All of the links you just posted may or may not be true, and I certainly don't have the time to reasonably go through all of them.

There are a lot of pretty reputable people speaking about this, especially in the ones OP's posted. The point is, there's already a mountain of evidence about this subject. They've just been digging themselves a hole of cover ups and lies, although with a subject as explosive as people from other solar systems visiting us, maybe they just don't know what to do with information that important. There's more stuff being declassified now though, and the narrative is pretty clear at least from what we know. I'm sure there's some absolutely insane things happening with this behind the scenes, but maybe we don't need to know about that just yet either.

You nailed it man. While I subscribe to some alien and UFO theories, OP appears to be conflating the evidence. Might just be an honest mistake, might not. Either way, you are correct.

Are they exercises, though?

Compare Chelsea Manning or Edward Snowden with any one of the people you've mentioned, and ask yourself what is the bigger secret, the bigger threat to national security: the government is secretly spying on it's citizens, or the government is in secret contact with an extra-terrestrial species? Manning is in prison and Snowden is on the run for releasing entirely banal information in comparison what these "respected officers" are able to talk about without consequence.

Here's another Air Force name for you to look up and add to your list: Richard Doty.

Anyone who believes humans have been to the moon shouldn't be in this subreddit.

Well for one, the existence of aliens pretty much flies in the face of all the worlds major religions.....so that's one big reason to keep it under wraps.

It flies in the face of modern interpretation of the major religions. When you look at religious text from a scientific perspective and not a mystical based one you see a different picture.

Well for one, the existence of aliens pretty much flies in the face of all the worlds major religions.....so that's one big reason to keep it under wraps.

Really? The four living creatures from the book of Revelations might want to have a word with you...

Didn't the pope say aliens could be christians?

Which Pope? The current one is quite progressive....but don't know if he said that or not.

and that is why we need to ban religions ...

faith, is your personal thing and nobody will care what you do in your private home ... but religion? nothing more than a tool for public control.

Thank you for posting this. Very interesting.

I think I know the reason why.

The NSA released a document that talks about fictional signals in a hypothetical case.

https://allegedlyapparent.wordpress.com/2011/04/28/nsa-29-messages-key-to-et-messages-release/

TL;DR: The NSA thinks ETs are impossible, so they feel free to make up fictional exercises citing ETs.

Hi, TLDR: no they don't, and that's not true at all.

I am imagining that what you did was a 30-second google search, maybe with the word "debunk" in it, and then you linked the first post you found about this, which is a random incredulous blogger ridiculing the stupid "conspiracy theorists and UFO freaks" for not automatically assuming or sharing his belief that "this must be an exercise because ETs can't be real" - without actually providing any proof or even suggestive evidence to back up his statements on his blog.. just a ridiculing suggestion that appeals to people who believe that "aliens can't be here".

To repeat, that's some random blogger who made a blog post trying to ridicule 'conspiracy theorists' and 'ufo nuts' without any substance to it at all - whereas the post you are responding to, my post, is full of substance and credible sources.

There are a great deal of credible military personnel who talk about the NSA being the branch of government that handles this stuff, or one of them - or one of their branches, the Armed Forces Security Service or Central Security Service. The NSA most certainly does not think 'ETs are impossible', and that's a laughable suggestion when taken in the context of available evidence to refute that statement. I linked to some videos of them - including a retired USAF Colonel who was a deputy base commander for the largest NATO airbase in the world where some aliens showed up and shot beams of light down at people.

Those military security police / officers like Colonel Charles Halt or Larry Warren from the Bentwaters alien incident? They said that the people that debriefed everyone showed up at the base in civilian clothes and pulling a lot of weight and ordering their commanders around - with nametags referencing an agency which is currently known as the Armed Forces Security Services or Central Security Service, which is an all-pervading octopus of "security" jurisdiction throughout all military services and many branches of government - one affiliated with the NSA, or an NSA 'field branch'. It was a crime to even mention the NSA, even in congress up until the 1990s. Exactly the type of agency you would expect to be managing something as secret as this.

PS - if you would prefer to put your trust in the credibility of a random faux-skeptic blogger named 'allegedlyapparent', rather than astronauts, military pilots, Colonels, Generals, and other military witnesses and whistleblowers - then there is no helping you!

To anyone with a brain, the fact that something serious is going around surrounding this subject is as obvious and real as the nose on your face. To everyone else, ok, wait for some official to inform you (while ignoring all the former officials, now retired and able to break their silence without destroying their careers, who try to do that, because uh, "reasons", or because some phony intellectual on the internet made fun of the idea, lol).

I feel that you are overconfident. His post likely has no substance (I don't care to read it), but nor did yours with regard to the actual article posted.

Without invoking unrelated people, you have made no attempt to show proof of your reasoning. There were plenty of mock tests done to examine life in the universe and communication between lifeforms, and this looks to be an example of one of them. The language used in the article you posted reads very similarly to other exercises.

If you care to, you can read a few more unclassified articles like the above, at this link. In fact, the other articles posted here almost directly show that these were exercises in understanding.

Without invoking unrelated people

What you're saying here is a lot like a detective trying to prove someone committed a crime -- and saying "without invoking unrelated people" he can prove his case -- when the "unrelated people" are the relevant witnesses or experts who can provide corroborating evidence suggesting something else, or witnesses that can provide the accused with an alibi - making them, in truth, absolutely related people. Not "unrelated people" at all.

If you want to ignore the meat of a subject, then why are you even here talking about it? This pdf file and the reality behind it, which it suggests, does not exist in a vacuum, right? Correct? Why do you want to pretend that it does? Can you explain your answer to that question for me? Do you just want to hamstring any effort to show something is true or provide evidence for something that contradicts a belief that you hold personally?

Read my cite if you'd like. If not, don't. I don't care to argue the point. The articles would be supporting you as they came from the same journal and talk of the same topics, and were accessed through foia.

You talk of the pdf not existing in a vacuum while ignoring the other journal articles which relate to it which I have made easily accessible to you, in favour of more distant and unrelated aspects of the discussion. You are looking at the pdf in a vacuum just as I may be. We're both in space.. so to speak.

You aren't arguing anything, you're ignoring everything, misrepresenting the subject of the argument, and asking me to play along with you.. and if I won't, "then well you don't care to continue". I don't care to argue it, this information is out there, you can believe whatever you want to believe. I'm not selling anything and I'm open to conversation which is why I made this post, but I'm also not going to play along with a "if we ignore most of the evidence then:" statement or treat it as if it's credible or worthy of consideration.

My point is that you are looking at a scientific journal and inferring things which aren't explicit. Your argument that the signals are real is that other people have seen aliens or ufos. The two ideas do not directly relate in any way.

3. Communications with Extraterrestrial Intelligence , by Howard H, Campaigne, Vol. XI, No. 2, Spring 1966, NSA Technical Journal.
4. Key to the Extraterrestrial Messages , by Howard H Campaigne, Vol. XIV, No. 1, Winter 1969, NSA Technical Journal.

How about you read another article from the same author as your linked post (cited in mine above), in which he is clearly demonstrating how communication "could" be done. The title should get your interest, if anything. I don't have a reason to argue because you will take what you like from the articles, and I will do the same. I just find it unlikely that your interpretation is correct.

Everyone has bias, and I don't care to argue beyond sharing my understanding and opinion.

It even says in the document that it is an exercise and was used to test the readers ingenuity.

which is a random incredulous blogger ridiculing the stupid "conspiracy theorists and UFO freaks" for not automatically assuming or sharing his belief that "this must be an exercise because ETs can't be real"

No it isn't. I read both the OP's link and the link debunking it and you are the one who is wrong. Dead wrong. The document is an exercise (probably for NSA crypotographers) and this is stated in the actual document itself. The link the other guy posted highlights the passages which make it clearer what the document is actually discussing.

You have completely misrepresented the other person's argument. In fact it's worse, because you've basically accused him of what you have done. You've read a sketchy NSA document which appears to suggest that a super civilised alien race is beaming the periodic table across space in the direction of the Earth, and assumed, with no other evidence to corroborate it, that it must be taken literally and isn't simply an exam question or cryptography exercise.

The document is an exercise (probably for NSA crypotographers) and this is stated in the actual document itself.

Why didn't you post that for us if that were true? Did you read it yourself, or just take the word of the random blogger ridiculing conspiracy theorists telling you about? Because that's not actually in there, and the opposite is actually true.

beyond that, ignoring the NSA pdf entirely, you think all these astronauts and high ranking military personnel are part of an exercise to pretend that aliens are here just to fuck with everyone? Or that they're just insane kooks or people without sound judgment? No. You are the one ignoring the facts and misrepresenting the argument here, not me. Until you are willing to respond to the actual "argument" being made by my post, I have no interesting in talking to you about it - because you're here misrepresenting it and making a strawman argument referencing some random blogger and a misrepresented form of what I'm saying rather than what is actually presented in my posts here.

You are the person here who is ignoring the relevant literature and actual facts/information, while pretending I'm doing that.

Why didn't you post that for us if that were true?

Because the guy you were arguing with before me already did. That's how I found it in the first place.

Did you read it yourself

Given that I explained what it said, what do you think?

or just take the word of the random blogger

I judge content on the basis of content. If the content is shit, then I look for the reason. I don't look for the reason first.

beyond that, ignoring the NSA pdf entirely, you think all these astronauts and high ranking military personnel are part of an exercise to pretend that aliens are here just to fuck with everyone?

When you say "all these" are you referring to the occasional astronaut who develops Alzheimer's? I'm fairly sure that approximately somewhere around 99.999 percent of the military and NASA don't believe we're in contact with an alien super race so you're just doing what all obsessive nutters do in this situation, and changing the way the facts are stated to try to make them appear favourable to you.

Also, nobody is ignoring the NSA PDF. We're simply saying you're taking it out of its intended context.

It's not great that you just proved everything I said about you and the 'tactics' you're using in your wannabe-debating here, while ignoring the relevant data, ignoring the relevant evidence, and ignoring the relevant literature. You're not actually trying to communicate anything meaningful to me other than your own willful ignorance of the facts and argument.

feel free to keep ignoring all of that while misrepresenting the entire argument, ignoring everything I say, and pretending that you're making some kind of sound point here - but it's clear that you're really not. For everything you say I can provide something that completely supersedes and negates it, "astronauts who develop alzheimers", ok, so you think all of those people have Alzheimers, then? That's your best response? LOL. Did you happen to notice that there are more than just 'astronauts' included here, or was comprehending what you read not something you are able to manage here? Or is that another part of the argument you're ignoring and willfully misrepresenting to serve your petty, personal-belief centered perspective and argument?

note that the 'skeptics' always have illogical approaches to their thought process and are unwilling to change it because of their deeply held belief in their own personal egotistical intellectual superiority. (even though they are ignoring evidence and making many other logical faux pas)

It's not great that you just proved everything I said about you

I'm not interested in your vague personal attacks thanks.

while ignoring the relevant data, ignoring the relevant evidence, and ignoring the relevant literature. You're not actually trying to communicate anything meaningful to me other than your own willful ignorance of the facts and argument.

I'm still not interested in them when you include blatant lies like I'm ignoring something. I've read everything posted and YOU are ignoring that the document itself mentions that it is an exercise. It literally says:-

Looking back over the exercise we see we have penetrated the meaning of the basic symbols.

The document again makes it clear that it is hypothetical here:-

How bizarre the syntax and values of a culture could be I cannot conjecture

And, as if this were not enough, in a further related unclassified NSA document, ignored by you, we see:-

In the most recent issue of the NSA technical journal - Vol XI, 1, Mr Lambros D. Callimahos discussed certain aspects of extraterrestrial intelligence and included several messages to test the reader's ingenuity.

You are posting blatant fucking misinformation and making vague personal attacks when you are exposed for it.

Go

Fuck

Yourself

With

A

Soggy

Hairbrush.

Excellent reply, sir.

Excellent reply, sir.

Thank you brother. Very much appreciated.

Peace.

Go Fuck Yourself With A Soggy Hairbrush.

I tend to agree with most of what you said but then you contradict yourself literally in the same post.

What more power do you gain over OP by using "personal attacks"?

I tend to agree with most of what you said but then you contradict yourself literally in the same post.

What more power do you gain over OP by using "personal attacks"?

I'm surprised the mods let it slide actually. I was expecting a notice this morning saying they'd removed the post.

That said, I didn't contradict myself. I didn't say I never use personal attacks. I'm a big believer that some people need to be told firmly but fairly to fuck right off. The time where people stop respecting the logic in my responses and keep arguing just for the sake of winning is the same time I start to get pissed off with them.

The way I see it is this: debate is objective, but arguing is subjective. I try to debate people, so if they want to derail that and turn it into an argument by lying, misrepresenting me or calling me names, then they can't expect anything else but the same in return.

However, my jibe was sarcastic and was obviously meant to be taken with a peppering of humour. I'm slightly disappointed that you missed it.

What are your thoughts on Carl Sagan take on UFOS in "The demon haunted world"

That's a fine work for explaining basic critical thinking skills to people and why they're necessary but it seems pretty infantile to me to suggest that the subject of aliens, other life forms in the universe, advanced civilizations (who would presumably be interested in other civilizations and developing cultures in their environment - the universe - or their galaxy or local group) is anything like his example of 'an invisible fire-breathing dragon that lives in the garage'.

There is evidence for "UFOs" and extra-terrestrial controlled vehicles. There is evidence for advanced science and propulsion. Imaginings, ghosts, and demon stories don't leave trace evidence on the ground (like the irradiated dirt at the Rendlesham forest landing or crash zone where the dirt was heated to such a degree that it nearly became like glass, hardened and full of abnormalities). It doesn't leave stuff that can be picked up with a Geiger counter, it doesn't evidence itself on radar. All of these things DO happen with craft in the skies and space/atmosphere around our planet that exceed any performance characteristics of craft that our civilizations know how to build -- so those are the premises, there is evidence to back the premise, what conclusions would be logical to consider?

Also, imaginary things don't leave the same mental imprint on multiple people in different geographic areas. They don't traumatize grown men and they don't pervade the minds of astronauts, engineers, pilots, and military officers who must be evaluated as sane and reliable in order to be entrusted with their social positions.

reason and logic would succeed once the truth is known. Conclusions emerge from premises, and the acceptability of the premises should not be discounted or accepted because of bias.

That's relevant to this. I would suggest that it's completely obvious that the current 'bias' in our culture is against the idea of "UFOs" being interplanetary craft, or craft belonging to some type of intelligence which is scientifically in advance of our own (based on the realities and evidence which have been observed by credible, sane experts in their given fields and professions).

I think most people tend to simply not know about the evidence. They ignore the relevant literature, they ignore the relevant evidence, they ignore the relevant professionals and witness testimony from highly credible people who obviously wish they didn't know about any of this because it causes them stress, grief, and social ostracism due to the extreme bias against the premise of 'alien life' or 'et' or advanced craft commanded by intelligent beings that aren't from the cultures we know of.

Everything is backwards. That book needs to be re-read and actually applied by the "skeptics", because they are being the farthest possible thing from "skeptical" or intelligent in regards to this subject.

TLDR: Actual logic and evidence-based evaluation of the premise leads to one conclusion (which is that there's obviously something to this) - the current BIAS of our social groups and culture tends towards another. You and I both know what the common bias of our culture tends to direct us toward - that all of this can't possibly be true, it's beyond the realm of the plausible regardless of how good the story is, what evidence there is, or who is telling it (even fucking astronauts who have walked on the moon or the military professionals in charge of the more dire, extreme weapons on planet earth).

Some of the most high ranking military professionals, scientists, and astronauts/pilots/engineers/etc. - as well as countless civilian witnesses and lower ranking military witnesses - believe that the correct conclusion based on the evidence available to them is that this phenomenon is interplanetary craft, or craft controlled by something other than 'us'. You can look those people up yourself and find their thoughts and experiences in both their professional and personal lives from their own mouths. For many of them, it's not a "belief", it's not an idea, it's an experience or something they have been professionally or personally involved in. You think that's comparable to the suggestion of 'an invisible firebreathing dragon in a garage' like the one in Sagan's book? Because I don't. I don't think Carl Sagan had access to the internet's wealth of evidence, connectivity between diverse groups and people, or the knowledge of the evidence surrounding these subjects. In his time, it was like a ghost story and he applied his logic to it in the best way he knew how. It was interesting but unreal to him, reasonably so - but we aren't in his time.

(ps - if I took a different tact on your question than what you were hoping for, then ask it again in another way and I'll respond to it differently however I can).

/u/changetip, excellent reply.

/u/yuspyinbros, hack_jealousy wants to send you a tip for 1 excellent reply (4,239 bits/$1.00). Follow me to collect it.

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I also, believe intelligent ET's are impossible. If we do find something, it will be bacteria. The conditions that brought life to Earth are highly unlikely to happen elsewhere in the right combinations that happened here (plate tectonics, rain, moon, goldilocks zone, Jupiter (asteroid deflection), recycling of greenhouse gases by natural events). If one has studied control theory they will see that our Earth functions like a feedback device, almost like a computer.

Not supporting OP in anyway, but the universe is never ending, I feel intelligent ETs are FAR from being impossible. Impossible to contact us yes, but us being the only intelligent life forms in the whole universe? Highly unlikely.

Given the size of the known universe, I would imagine it is more likely than less likely that the same or similar conditions exist elsewhere. Plus, when you consider that there may be other types of life forms (silicon vs. Carbon, or other elements we've never seen), I think you're not opening yourself up to the broader possibility. Disclosure: I think Ops article is bullshit, all the evidence is there that points to it simply being theoretical.

[deleted]

It's not really a matter of if humans are the only intelligent life to ever evolve in the universe. The universe is so big that it's practically guaranteed that other civilizations exist somewhere and some when. Question is if that somewhere is close enough to visit given the distances (even with FTL travel), and if that some when is now.

Intelligence is not always a winning evolutionary strategy. Indeed some of the "simplest" organisms are the most successful on earth. And we haven't been around long enough to prove that intelligence is viable (and therefore common). Intelligence is likely so rare that civilizations are just too spread out for two to ever have a chance of communicating.

But even on the off chance that two civs are close enough in space, they also have to exist long enough to meet. Can a species survive long enough to become space faring and avoid destroying themselves or depleting their resources? Looking at the only intelligent civilization we know of, I'm not sure if that's likely.

Yeah, all that evidence that proves otherwise makes them so hilariously out of touch. The bullshit aliem agenda fiction has been pushed so hard on the world*, by the exact same worthless usual suspects, why not believe known liars? Project Bluebeam prep and nothing more.

While they may exist out there somewhere in the universe, the likelihood that they are actively fucking with humans is entirely nonexistent. Only other humans do that.

Can't explain something? Gotta be aliems....

Thanks for the post!

This has been brought up multiple times and is apparently a training exercise for nsa analysts.

So all those astronauts and colonels and generals are also a part of a training exercise for NSA analysts? How does that work?

They're not related. An NSA training exercise has nothing to do with any other claims made by anybody. I'm not sure why you feel so strongly about lumping them all together.

I'm not sure why you feel so strongly about disconnecting obviously connected ideas, people, and subject - addressing one, but not the rest of the relevant links. Want to explain that to me?

Pointing out a single problem with your links is just that. I'm not going to get into an argument or even a debate about the others. They're just not relevant to the point I made.

I didn't address the point you made because I don't really have any reason to take your word for it and you didn't provide any proof or sources for why you believe what you believe. I did provide those things.

so, we don't really have anything to talk about unless you want to address the other things posted that you can't just say "that's not real" to.

Your logic is flawed. Astronauts who say they believe in aliens doesn't make a random disclosure from the NSA valid. Looking back at articles from the same author in the same journal, it's pretty obvious this us a hypothetical. In the document you linked, he even calls it an exercise. If you were deciphering extraterrestrial messages, I don't think you'd consider something so profound to be as trivial as an 'exercise'. Further, when the government decides to reveal that they know about ET, it's highly unlikely it would be done via a FOIA request. There would be govt spokespeople putting it into context, etc. If for nothing other than damage control.

You didn't even watch the videos of the witnesses you're talking about, get out of here. You literally are responding to something you didn't even look into or watch, or you're intentionally misrepresenting what is in the videos. They aren't saying "they believe it", they say they saw it, experienced it directly, on more than one occasion, in more than one official capacity. They also include what they did about it and how their experience reporting a UFO landing up the chain of command went. They also include that they fucking recorded it on film as well as seeing it first hand with their own eyes, then he was instructed on the phone by a Colonel to put it in a carry bag and give it to the courier who would take it to Washington as soon as it was developed.

You are brain-dead or trolling. Get out of this thread. This is truly amazing to me (your behavior and response to astronauts and military personnel giving you an account of something that happened to them like this, in an official capacity). Wow. Cognitive dissonance or trolling to the max. Looks like this thread really brought them out.

/r/conspiracy really seems to have turned into a bastion of "conservative traditionalists" who spend a lot of time whining about Israel and 'the gubmint' and not a lot of time on anything of substance.

Nice post.

Is there any chance a copy of these radio messages were included with the FOIA dump? Would love a listen and a shot at analysis.

Thanks, and as far as I know, as far as I've looked so far, I've only seen the key to the radio messages rather than all the messages themselves. I would imagine those are hidden from the courts under more layers of classification.

Start combing through FRB dumps.

Looks similar to unlambda code, a minimalist lambda programming language without requiring variable names. (symbols in code changed so reddit can display)

This code came from http://www.madore.org/~david/programs/unlambda/

'''s''s''sii'ki

'k.*''s''s'ks

''s'k's'ks''s''s'ks''s'k's'kr''s'k'sikk

'k''s'ksk

outputs fibonacci:

+

+

++

+++

+++++

++++++++

+++++++++++++

+++++++++++++++++++++

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

...

It looks similar because of the recursive use of the K symbol in the supposed alien writing (like in "LFKAKBE"), which is followed by 2 things, same as in unlambda, and each of those 2 may be another K recursion.

LFKAKBE means L the following 2 things are equal. Those 2 things are F and KAKBE. F is 6. A is 1. B is 2. E is 5. They explain these things in the pdf file, but I'm not far into reading it. I'm not sure what the recursion means, but it looks very similar to unlambda.

Alright, I've gone and forced myself to post this as a top level comment. I'll keep it short and simple. All of the following data was found from this source and looks to be PDF copies of journal articles similar to (and including) the one in the initial post.

In 1966, H. H. Campaigne released a test set of UFO signals, shown in article 3 in my cited link.

...Callimmahos discussed certain aspects of extraterrestrial intelligence and included several messages to test the reader's inegnuity. In the following pages, H. H. Campaigne offers additional communications from outer space.

It is heavily implied that these messages were tests similar to the ones in the article referenced, though not outright said. This could lead to the general misunderstanding here. The next article listed in this post (no. 4) was made three years later, in 1969, by the same author. The intro of it states:

Dr Campaigne presented a series of 29 messages from outer space in "Extraterrestrial Intelligence," NSA technical Journal, Vol XI, No. 2, pp. 101 ff...

Note that this is the article quoted above. It continues:

The following article develops a key to these messages. ..snip.. This includes two new series-30 and 31- not included in the previous article.

Now, I think any argument about the purpose of these articles can be put to rest, as the author has written his intents fairly clearly here. UFO's might exist, but this is the very last source you would want to use as validation of that fact. Infer what you will from the above, but I think most folks would give you an awfully silly look if you used this as support of alien contact with us on earth.

I love to see people entertain new ideas, but please try to realize there are always multiple sides to every story. Try to acknowledge your bias, and not let them lead you astray. I find it awfully sad that the OP is insulting so many people in this thread.

UFO's might exist, but this is the very last source you would want to use as validation of that fact.

The entire "field" of ufology is predicated on doing just that, over and over and over again. Pointing at modern folklore, hoaxes, and misunderstood primary sources as evidence for little green men.

It is a field of people just smart enough to find information, but not quite smart enough to interpret it.

It's not actually heavily implied. Did you read what you're talking about? If what you were saying was true, you would be posting a quote that says or "heavily implies" that it's just a test from the document or ones that surround it. What you are saying does not actually make sense, and you haven't put anything "to rest", you've just ignored most of the subject matter while acting as though you're proving something - while really not doing so - which is what most "debunkers" do. There is no talking to them through their biases, even when people like multiple astronauts who have been to the moon and back try it.

Do you care to explain why they use the language "offers additional communications (to test the reader's ingenuity)" when referring to the initial test ones?

I think this alone would be enough to say it is heavily implied, if not explicitly so.

accepting your thoughts, how about you move on to talking about something that isn't a test, which is why there is plenty of extra stuff included in the post here?

Can you tell me how those are "an nsa test"?

So you are admitting that this is a test? That is a very grown up thing to do, so I appreciate you saying that.

I think if you want to discuss the other parts of your post which are unrelated to this alien message you should make posts for them individually. I only came to discuss what the initial title implied the discussion was about.

That's not what I said, and ignoring 90% of the post you are responding to is not an adult thing to do. Get out of here if you aren't able to discuss what the post is about, because you aren't able to behave like an adult!

Get out of here if you aren't able to discuss what the post is about, because you aren't able to behave like an adult!

It must be very difficult for you to be the only adult in a world of children.

It is obvious that the information is false as in the link it says the radio information was received over sputnik! sputnik was the first satellite, a very primitive radio beacon whose circuits are still duplicated often by enthusiasts. it didn't have any receiving capabilities.

[deleted]

Worked for me. Playing right now.

The "ET" message was definitely in the main stream media. Even the X-Files did an episode on it. Moulder travels to South America to retrieve the message from one of the satellite arrays before the government destroys it. Super creepy episode. NASA concluded the signals were an anomaly and the pulsing possibly from something like a quasar. Besides, you think NASA would let a super secret out just because of a FOIA request?

hey dude, this wasn't from NASA. It's from NSA.gov - the National Security Agency, and yes, sometimes they are obligated by the rulings of law to disclose certain things via Freedom of Information Act requests, this one was FOIA Case #41472. People on this website tend to be terrified of the government, but in reality they do need to follow certain legal protocols of a civilized society.

If an agency wants something kept a secret they don't just hand it out via FOIA, all they have to cite is national security issues or risk to person or infrastructure. Here is the signal I am talking about, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wow!_signal

"The entire signal sequence lasted for the full 72-second window that Big Ear was able to observe it, but has not been detected again. The signal has been the subject of significant media attention, and astronomers have tried many times in vain to find the signal again."

Why are you linking that to me? That's not what this is, and what you are saying doesn't have relevance to what I'm saying. Eventually things need to come out, you're saying things like "citing national security" - they did - that's why the release was delayed by almost a decade while a lawyer took them to court. From what I'm reading, they were forced by the judge to release this particular portion of their files, the rest they were apparently able to keep secret for 'reasons of national security'.

Yeah of course the NSA doesn't want there technical journals in which they discuss their proprietary cryptography technologies becoming public. And if you think the Wow! signal isn't extraordinary, then i don't know what... it's one of the only few signals to come to us that isn't clearly from a cosmological body but something else (read aliens)

[deleted]

Because it was a training exercise.

It probably is the biggest news of the century - which is specifically why most people have never heard of it. It would (or has potential to) upset the traditional established social order on the Earth to know that these things are out there, so the 'civil servants' have chosen to keep it from us and gradually acclimate people to the idea with efforts like 'ufo tv shows' and maybe an eventual announcement of 'bacterial life found on mars' - baby steps or total denial/no acknowledgement.

They just can't tell Joe Blow that "there are things out there more advanced than us and we have no power over them", it's so sensitive a subject that the best response was ridicule and ignoring it. I'm sure the government has very smart people working on it, and now you know about it too - they released this because they were legally obligated to do so and ordered by a judge to, so anyone who is interested in this can find out about it if they really try --- maybe some day they will say "we did our duty, and we released information about it - we just didn't make a big announcement because we didn't want to frighten the public at large or spread chaos". I bet that is the case here.

Was probably our own signals that we send out as part of SETI Research and others reflected back to us by a piece of space debris

No, it probably was not that at all. The NSA is not in the habit of employing incompetent experts and it would be fairly simple to discern "one of our own signals" from one genuinely originating from another culture coming from outer space. You have been in this thread posting things that don't make sense for almost an hour now, why are you doing that?

Exactly, you think they would just hand over a document with proof of ET just because of some FOIA request? This isn't a limited hangout either. This is the same stuff I can find in any book on cryptography. Where's the source document for Dr. C saying it contained elements and mathematical equations that isn't just a blog post? Yea there is the key document but that mentions nothing about elements or equations contained in the signal. For all we know, this is some sort of practice in cryptography with a fun premise that it was from ET to make the exercise a little more fun, a typical teaching technique. There is no context to this document other than a blog post.

training exercise, idiotic post. unless your objective is to continue killing the credibility of this sub, in which case: "well played".

This comes up every once in a while, its an internal NSA publication like a newsletter for crypto geeks the OP is misguided

oh, that's strange, so these are exercises created by a cryptologist too?

https://youtu.be/wsEd_b1C8DY?list=PLiXPew3wMf6firzsoZOhXeSMOCuzNbiuF&t=26 (astronaut Gordon Cooper)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1Dm1_zFk0Y (Colonel USAF Charles Halt)

https://youtu.be/tYU_tr5K5ws?t=20

https://youtu.be/u7mEnmx1HIo?list=PLiXPew3wMf6firzsoZOhXeSMOCuzNbiuF&t=17 (Colonel USAF Ross Dedrickson)

https://youtu.be/8fnSkLV7s0k?t=23

https://youtu.be/LJ9RGdHlA5M?t=22 (Brigadier General Stephen Lovekin, esq. Army cryptographer in the Pentagon from 1959-61.)

https://youtu.be/DDg_6W2UIS8?t=26

https://youtu.be/mhmGdralRmE?t=54 (Dr. Edgar Mitchell, astronaut, moonwalker, telling you about aliens)

no, they are liars. I always love how ufo people believe every conspiracy, so believe that every agency is involved in every bit of cover up/conspiring yet you believe individual military or government personnel. It's really weird, you guys need to be more consistent.

yeah, great job figuring out my entire personality and telling me about your personal feelings, beliefs, and opinions about my mentality based on 1 thread on reddit, you moron.

jesus christ you are a stupid guy, lol. You are projecting your personal beliefs and opinions onto the external world - me included - they don't actually line up with reality. You demonstrate that with me, so it's not a stretch to suggest you are doing the same thing with basically everything else including your feelings about "they are liars" in reference to all the astronauts/professionals/scientists/military personnel who have direct experience with this subject.

ufo people believe every conspiracy, so believe that every agency is involved in every bit of cover up/conspiring yet you believe individual military or government personnel.

nobody believes this but you - and it's your belief about "ufo people" because you're a moron who is trying to ridicule a group of people who invalidate some worldview you hold, you nutcase.

I'll just leave this here

we're sorry, the request has been blocked

Link to the document without going to the fbi site.

http://i.imgur.com/P6qP8tX.jpg

Thanks for posting this! Very interesting stuff. If I was willing to monetarily support Reddit, I'd buy you gold.

thanks, sometimes I think I should really set up my own site because I think I would do it better than 90% of the people out there in this particular field of knowledge. Or maybe write a book, but that has been done and doesn't reach enough eyes. Glad to help.

If you ever do either, please let us know. I'm always excited to find new sources of information about stuff like this.

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I'm not extremely aware of the specifics surrounding CSETI, so I don't know everything, but I do know that Dr. Steven Greer is sort of a man on a personal mission and regardless of what anyone thinks about him personally - he has accumulated, put together, edited, and released more high quality testimony from extraordinarily credible witnesses than basically any other person in the history of this field - so I think his way of charging people to go see some lights in the sky goes to a good cause and is not just a scam.

Also, I've personally seen some videos from his CSETI groups seeing odd lights in the sky, like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YJoG_m8FVs

I know that he does some interesting things.

also to add to that, Steven Greer's event at the National Press Club for The Disclosure Project was huge, a huge deal, and is one of the greatest stand-alone projects in this field I've ever seen.

In this video, he says he wanted to hold it at the UN in New York and he was in the process of proceeding with that in talks with the Chairman's office, but they called him and told him it couldn't be held there because some major countries said no and threatened to withdraw funding from the UN if they went ahead with his event there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TbZDgv2PqQ

I don't know whether to believe it wholeheartedly, but I know that this guy is into some real stuff.

From what i understand, greer and the disclosure project have some substantial funding from the rockefeller foundation. Definitely sends up red flags for me.

Ding, ding, ding.

We seem to share the same opinion. Interesting. Always nice to meet another like-minded individual.

Lmao, alien baiting by some day 1 account.

Classic.

Lmao, total lack of intelligible response while ridiculing entire subject matter.

Classic.

OP, even if you're full of shit, you're putting forth a heroic effort.

Do you think I'm full of shit? You think that about Gordon Cooper, Edgar Mitchell, Col. Halt, Col. Dedrickson, General Lovekin, etc? There is an extreme bias in our culture against this subject which is showing it's head any time it is brought up.

I'm sorry, I just can't get into the whole alien conspiracy.

apologize to yourself for being ruled by biased ingrained in you by others, not to me, because your biases (which prevent you from caring about evidence, logic, first hand professional experiences) have no effect on me.

Wow. To each their own, I'm not hating on you because you believe in anything, just saying I can't get into it.

that's what I just said to you, bud

I watched those videos. In most of them you have people saying they believe, but having never seen anything themselves. That is not evidence, and it is meaningless.

Lol, that's not true at all, so it's obvious that you didn't watch the videos. Why do you say that you did? That's the opposite of what is in the videos, are you intentionally bullshitting?

You think that about Gordon Cooper, Edgar Mitchell, Col. Halt, Col. Dedrickson, General Lovekin, etc?

On this topic? Yes. I question their qualifications to have an informed opinion on astrobiology. Because they have none.

I do not doubt their experiences. Or, rather, I do not doubt them any more than I do anyone else's recollections of something that happened long ago, especially after many retellings.

Remembering an event is rewriting an event.

astrobiology

who on Earth has perfect credentials to do or understand 'astrobiology', we can just make educated guesses at the moment, NASA has given us nothing of substance for all the billions we pump into them.

NASA gives us possibly occupied 'tidally locked' planets for shits and giggles, that how much contempt they have for the public that pays their salaries and sustains their empire.

...NASA is critically underfunded...

Astrobiology isn't really a field. It's more of an interest area for some biologists. The point I'm making, though, is that these people are the most likely to have formed a useful opinion on these matters.

You are absolutely right that we don't actually know anything about ET life. Statistically speaking, it's as close to a certainty as you can come. But we know so little even about how life happened here, that anything that we posited about other planets would be conjecture.

But again, someone who knows a lot about life here would likely have a better chance of being closer to right than people who post YouTube videos of old men muttering through wild tales from their youth.

thanks man I'll take your word for it and your opinion over the experts and experiences of astronauts, doctors, and military personnel with first-hand knowledge and experience. Thank you so much for enlightening me. You are such an intelligent person. Thanks for your knowledge oh sage one.

your opinion over the experts and experiences of astronauts, doctors, and military personnel with first-hand knowledge and experience

I don't have an opinion. That's what you don't seem to understand.

I am pointing out that there is no reason to accept their testimony as objectively true.

I believe that they believe what they are saying.

I believe that something confusing happened to them.

I believe that this kind of confusing experience is fairly common.

Were I stop believing is when usually other people jump from there to aliens.

We don't know what happened to them. We don't even know if they are remembering it right. Add to that hoaxes, and probably even some actual disinformation, and we have absolutely no way to draw a conclusion on this topic.

No. Absolutely not. Bullshit radar is reading 0. I'm a giddy motherfucker right now.

Oh Jesus, /r/ufos is leaking.

There is not a shred of evidence of any kind that we are being visited by aliens. Nothing. None. Zero.

What we have are stories of weird lights in the sky, noise on radar... And that is all.

I have seen a UFO. It was a light that moved slowly through the sky, back and forth. I thought it was a helicopter or something. But then it just shot straight up and out of sight.

I have absolutely no reason to believe that it was an alien craft.

All I can say for sure is that it was a light that appeared to move in a way that a human craft could not.

But I cannot say that it was a physical object of any kind (Which is why I don't even like the term "UFO." I prefer UAP—Unexplained Aerial Phenomenon). I certainly can't take the next step and say it was a vehicle. And I most certainly can't go even further and posit that it was piloted by little green men.

All stories about UFOs are just that: Stories. That doesn't mean that the people telling them are lying. I believe most of them. I just don't think that their interpretation of their memories are well-supported. I also think that their memories are tainted by science fiction. Memory is a tricky thing. Consciousness is a tricky thing. The past is not a record; it is a story we tell ourselves.

Do you know why you don't have any memories of when you were a baby?

No language ability yet.

People like me, who have never shut up from the time they were less than two years old, actually can remember that far back. I can remember my second birthday party, for example.

What's the relationship? Easy. Without a conceptual framework of reality, our experience just kind of washes over us and is lost. We use language and the model of reality it provides as a way to interpret the torrent of data crashing into our brains from our sensory organs at all times. It allows us to automatically junk most of it, and keep the useful parts. Language then lets us pin those down to data points for storage. One of the reasons all people should work to become multilingual, even if they are native English speakers and able to get around the world just fine without any other languages, is that it teaches your brain to interpret things differently. It makes you a better thinker. Learning Japanese taught me so much about nuance and context that I didn't get from the Germanic language of English. Living in Japan has made me much better at "reading the air" (as the Japanese expression goes) and know what to do to just get along with people and avoid putting them in uncomfortable positions (unless that's the point). I understand the world in a fundamentally different way from the way I did growing up.

Okay, so let's back up again and look just at my own UAP experience. Why would I ever even entertain the possibility that that was an alien vehicle? For that to happen, I have to have these concepts already rooted in my conceptual framework of reality.

1. Heavier-than-air flight is possible for beings of my basic size and with my basic physical requirements.
2. Flight is achieved via technological means.
3. Space travel is feasible.
4. Life on other planets is assured.
5. Life on other planets is analogous to our own.
6. Aliens may indeed sometimes visit Earth.

Numbers 1-3 are simply an accident of history. If I lived in the 1800s or certainly before, I very well may not have had these ideas, and would therefore not interpret a moving light in the sky as a vehicle of any kind.

Number 4 is contested, although I think it's preposterous to claim that the universe is not positively lousy with life. Just the sheer number of planets makes it as close to a certainty as statistics will allow.

Number 5 is where things break down. What is "life?" Why would we assume it shares any features with our own? Why would we assume that it has any of the same motivations we do? "They want to study us" or "they want to educate us" or "they want to conquer us"—these are all human activities, the product of billions of years of selfish gene natural selection. There is absolutely nothing that we do that is not just some preprogrammed task that is either useful for genetic reproduction or at least not detrimental to it. We are an emergent phenomenon of the chemical and physical processes present on this planet during this period of this planet's lifespan. For another species to share even a little of our motivations would require such an overlap of history as to be, statistically speaking, nigh on impossible. —Especially given the timeframe we're talking about here. It is a near-certainty that other civilizations almost identical to our own have existed before, and will exist again, and probably exist somewhere now... But the likelihood that they'd be in contact is near zero. People always forget about the time problem. We don't care about civilizations that are long dead, or which will rise in the future. We're interested in human-like civilizations, right now, with the ability to travel literally-astronomical distances for reasons we can somehow understand. That's way too tall an order for me to accept as likely.

Number 6 is just folklore. Modern folklore, but folklore nonetheless. Just as primitive cultures might see lights in the sky and believe the gods are at war, or Elijah/Elisha is coming back/going away, or what-have-you, we in developed, Western countries, steeped in a good 100 years of alien mythology, immediately jump to that as a rough-and-ready explanation for anomalous experiences. But just as (I don't think) the gods/monsters explanation is correct, I don't think the aliens one is. It's just a story.

So if this stuff isn't aliens hotrodding around the universe, what is it?

I have no clue.

And neither does anyone else, least of all the US government.

Wow, gee, you sure did type a big post full of nothing relevant there. I'm assuming you think astronauts and colonels and NATO commanders are insane con men or crackpots then, yes, and we should all take your thoughts as the leading light in this subject? Thanks for your input, maybe you should watch those videos and tell me why you think your personal opinions and feelings should weigh more to people than the direct experience and evaluation of some of the most credible, experienced, and professional individuals in the world.

There is not a shred of evidence of any kind that we are being visited by aliens. Nothing. None. Zero.

You're totally, royally, and entirely wrong about that. There's an extreme amount of evidence, including radar confirmation, multiple eye-witness confirmation, documents from responsible professional bodies (the military and defense community from all around the world, for example the DIA document about the 1976 Tehran, Iran alien craft incident that was confirmed by radar and multiple pilots, both military and foreign civil passenger plane pilots, as well as from the tower at the airport, as well as people in the city and on the ground).

If you looked for the evidence, you would find it. If you mean "recovered crashed objects", why on earth would you assume that the relevant responsible bodies would ignore their duty and NOT recover it and then classify as secret the entire incident? Like what this guy experienced as a relevant anecdote:

https://youtu.be/2VaeZRH9R2Y?t=32

There is absolutely no reasonable assumption to be made here that we would be told about it, nor that they "should" come out and tell us about their presence themselves, nor that the military should give everyone access to what would presumably be the most advanced technology on the planet.

I feel for you so bad right now, the ignorance here is incredible. Never have would I imagine people would actually comment on something before having even looked into it's subject matter, but this sub proves me wrong.

This post blew my mind though, I can't wait to learn more information about this. If you find the actual audio definitely share it with us here.

I feel for you so bad right now, the ignorance here is incredible. Never have would I imagine people would actually comment on something before having even looked into it's subject matter, but this sub proves me wrong.

Been reading UFO drivel pretty regularly since the 80s. Started out believing. Ultimately realized that it's the same handful of stories repeated over and over, and there is not shred one of evidence for any of it.

It's not a romantic position. But it's the right one.

I don't think you actually know what you're talking about. If you did, you wouldn't be saying "there is not one shred of evidence" - or to quote you verbatim, "not shred one of evidence". You apparently are not familiar with the Rendlesham forest/Bentwaters incident, or the Tehran, Iran one in 1976, or the radar confirmations, or the multiple credible witnesses, or the places where the things land that are irradiated and turned to glass.

Just because you've watched the whole series of "Unsolved Mysteries" and read some stories on usenet in the early 00's doesn't make you the Aristotle of UFOs.

If you call the first-hand professional experience of pilots, astronauts, high ranking military personnel, etc. "drivel", then you're not very smart, and your posts are the only 'drivel' around here. You're possibly and egomaniac and you've got a worldview based on you being the one and only, or a member of the one-and-only advanced species here, and the idea of anything else "is just stupid" as far as you're concerned - or you think you're being intelligent now that you've become disillusioned with anything 'mysterious'.

It's not a romantic position, but it's the right one.

You apparently are not familiar with the Rendlesham forest/Bentwaters incident

Oh, that one where the aliens landed in the woods in England, but there is no fucking evidence, just the stories of some overworked soldiers?

or the Tehran, Iran one in 1976

You mean the one where some people supposedly saw some lights and someone supposedly saw something on radar? You mean that story?

or the radar confirmations, or the multiple credible witnesses

Do you not know what the word "story" means??? I have specifially and repeatedly explained that I do not count stories of anomalous radar readings, nor the stories of random dudes with unrelated jobs as evidence.

They are a starting point, not the end of the discussion. They lead to the development of a hypothesis. You can't then turn around and support the same hypothesis with the shit that you used to generate it.

Why do you not get this?

I agree that there is enough anecdotal evidence (which isn't really evidence) to entertain the ET hypothesis, but that hypothesis remains wholly unsupported by verifiable evidence.

Do you have the radar reports? Do you have black box data that can be used to check for instrument malfunction? Have you seen bodies in freezers? No. Have I? No.

Does that mean that such verifiable, objective, empirical data does not exist? NO.

But it does mean that it remains in the "MAYBE" column.

the places where the things land that are irradiated and turned to glass

Cool; what lab can I write to in order to get my hands on these samples?

What's that? The big bad omnipotent government, the same stooges who let a low-level contractor walk out the door with the entire NSA playbook, has it?

Color me thoroughly unconvinced.

Just because you've watched the whole series of "Unsolved Mysteries" and read some stories on usenet in the early 00's doesn't make you the Aristotle of UFOs.

Actually, it does. It makes me exactly as well-informed as anyone on the subject. It's all hearsay and whispered spooky stories. There is no primary data.

If you call the first-hand professional experience of pilots, astronauts, high ranking military personnel, etc. "drivel", then you're not very smart

My PhD kinda suggests otherwise.

You know why I consider those people's stories drivel? Because not one of them is a scientist. Not one of them is trained in the practice of throwing away beautiful ideas that aren't supported. Again:

Pilots? They know how to fly airplanes. One of my best friends' dads is a commercial pilot, ex-Air Force. He's a dullard. A stupid hick hayseed.

Astronauts? Just another kind of pilot.

High-ranking military personnel? Soldiers who never left to get a new job. Frequently dumb as posts, living off the largess of an out-of-control military industrial complex.

You know who I think are smart? People with advanced degrees publishing peer-reviewed research on topics they have devoted their lives to. And, again, you don't find many of those people in relevant fields who are smitten by the ET hypothesis.

It's a nice idea. It's a cool idea. It may even be true.

But there is no reason to believe that it is.

Oh, that one where the aliens landed in the woods in England, but there is no fucking evidence, just the stories of some overworked soldiers?

Ever been there? There is evidence, still there, to this day. There have been soil samples taken to an environmental evaluation lab in the states which came back with the conclusion that it's 'highly anomalous' and that the soil was irradiated and heated to an extreme degree.

Your posts are just over-personalized drivel. Nothing you say is anything other than your personal opinion with zero facts included. I'm not going to bother 'debunking' every single thing you say line by line, because not a single thing you say is logical and it just isn't worth my time to inform you that every statement you make is wrong, line by line.

You have your bias and you're sticking to it - evidence be damned - which is a common reaction to uncommon realities before they become accepted socially as a new norm. You are one of the many, so you share the biases of the many/common biases. No amount of evidence would change your mind, I'd bet if an alien stepped through the wall into your living room right now you'd think "i must be hallucinating" and hide your head under a blanket. Astronauts been to the moon and been military pilots telling you they saw, in their official capacity, UFOs land - and took video footage of it - and you ignore that, lol, and say "there's no reason to believe it". Who do you think is trustworthy or believable/credible other than them? NATO airbase commanders and their deputies or intelligence people or security police, all of them having direct multi-witness experiences that are beyond all of your simplistic explanations, you just ignore it all.

close your eyes all you want - you aren't actually right though. I understand it's scary and upsetting to some people, you're free to choose to believe whatever you want to believe regardless of the evidence available to you - feel free to continue to just ignore it all and live your normal life.

Ever been there?

No, and neither have you.

There have been soil samples taken to an environmental evaluation lab in the states which came back with the conclusion that it's 'highly anomalous' and that the soil was irradiated and heated to an extreme degree.

1. Cool. Can you send me a link to the report? I work for a university; I can get anything.

2. Heat? Radiation? On a military base??? Surely aliens.

Nothing you say is anything other than your personal opinion with zero facts included.

...I am not proposing a hypothesis. I do not need to provide an alternate hypothesis in order to demonstrate that yours is unsupported.

This is why doing any kind of science is hard. We are hardwired to seek out patterns and form ad-hoc conclusions about what's going on. That's a great way to avoid getting eaten by a sabre-toothed tiger. Not a great way to avoid making mistakes, though.

You look at anomalous data and pick a hypothesis to explain it, and use the data to support the hypothesis.

I look at anomalous data and point out that it's anomalous and that without further, better data, we can't really support any hypothesis.

See? I'm not here to provide facts. I'm here to point out that you don't have any.

I'm not going to bother 'debunking' every single thing you say line by line, because not a single thing you say is logical

No, you're not going to do it because I am the one applying inferential logic to the problem. Trust me on that. It's something I teach.

Again, I'm not saying your hypothesis is wrong. I'm saying there is no reason to believe it's right. There is a difference.

You have your bias and you're sticking to it - evidence be damned - which is a common reaction to uncommon realities before they become accepted socially as a new norm.

Three things:

1. Yes, when the lighting divides the sky and Jesus descends on a cloud, all those heathens who didn't believe in Him will fall to their knees and repent.

2. And you know what? If that happened, I would do so as well. Why? Because there would finally be a reason to believe. There is no virtue in believing something that might be true, on the off chance that it is. You won't get any points for believing the ET hypothesis sans evidence, before the evidence appeared and people realized you were right. Until that happens, you're just making a fool of yourself.

3. Disclosure has been coming Any Day Now for as long as I've been alive. But you know what? It hasn't happened. Or, rather, the various unhelpful FOIA files that have come out are Disclosure. And the disclosure was, "Some people called us with a story; we checked it out, but didn't see anything." Sometimes, "there was some weird shit that went down, but we don't know what it was." You will be waiting as long as the Christians for your Messiah. He ain't coming.

No amount of evidence would change your mind, I'd bet if an alien stepped through the wall into your living room right now you'd think "i must be hallucinating" and hide your head under a blanket.

1. Yup. I would probably shit myself, too. As would you. As would any human being. Why? Because there is no precedent for such an encounter. Abject. Fucking. Terror. We would pray to our favorite literary character that it was a dream. We're not set up to handle that.

2. But if the interaction continued, and I realized that, yes, This Is Really Happening, then of course I would have no choice but to believe. But that ain't going to happen—I could be wrong, but I'm betting I'm right.

Astronauts been to the moon and been military pilots telling you they saw, in their official capacity, UFOs land - and took video footage of it - and you ignore that, lol, and say "there's no reason to believe it".

Cool, do you have that footage?

How about the audio of Neil Armstrong freaking out about the UFO base, that happened during the 2min of silence? Do you have that?

No. What you have is exactly what I have: Recycled reports from dubious sources claiming that these this evidence exists.

What's the new vocabulary word I've been trying to teach you here again? What do we call that "evidence?" Oh yeah: Stories.

NATO airbase commanders and their deputies or intelligence people or security police, all of them having direct multi-witness experiences that are beyond all of your simplistic explanations, you just ignore it all.

I ignore it all because most of it is off-record, second-hand, recycled junk. The times when we have these people actually going on record to tell their stories, I put their stories in the "maybe" pile, because stories are not evidence.

You know the saying "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence?" Well... An old man talking about some fucked-up shit he saw 50 years ago is about as ordinary as it comes.

feel free to continue to just ignore it all and live your normal life.

Feel free to be a gullible fool. It's fun; I get it. It's fun to believe that the universe is like your favorite storybooks. The real world is boring. It'd be a lot cooler if there were aliens and Jesus and Santa Claus. That's why these ideas persist. They feel good. They instill a sense of awe. They help build community with other people willing to suspend rational thought and pretend that The X-Files was a documentary.

Doesn't make it objectively true, though.

No, and neither have you.

So now you have super-powers and you are omniscient. Get the fuck out of here dude (figuratively), every time you make a post, the very first line is something ridiculous and egomaniacal or flat out obviously wrong and illogical that makes me think there is no point to reading the rest of your post - and there never is. You are just expounding on your own internal biases while telling me why you ignore reality, evidence, and logic -- but why you still think you're being very right and intelligent while doing so, I have no interest in that, and I don't understand why you think I should.

you're doing this thing called "confirmation bias" on things that are just totally illogical and ignorant, you ignore evidence, you ignore logic.

So now you have super-powers and you are omniscient.

Fine, then answer the fucking question, Claire.

Been there? Really? Taken your own readings? Verified any of the story?

I don't have to be omniscient to know that you almost certainly have not.

you're doing this thing called "confirmation bias" on things that are just totally illogical and ignorant, you ignore evidence, you ignore logic, you are not worth talking to.

And yet you continue!

I'm not doing confirmation bias. For one to do confirmation bias, you have to have already stated a belief that needs to be confirmed.

I do not have a belief. Over and over, I keep trying to get you to see that I am not saying you are wrong; I'm saying that there is no reason to believe you are right. Those are different positions. The first is a hypothesis. If yours is "A," then the opposite would be "not A." Mine is "Null." I am arguing that there is insufficient evidence to support the ET hypothesis. Not that it is wrong.

If I were actually positing "not A," I would say, "Aliens are not visiting the earth. I know this because astronauts and military personnel are dumb." Not what I'm saying. I'm saying "There is not enough evidence to claim that aliens are visiting the Earth. The evidence offered is anecdotal, hearsay, or of otherwise dubious quality. No physical, objectively-verifiable evidence has been offered."

On the other hand, what you're doing is this: "Aliens are visiting the Earth. This is evidenced by these accounts..." When the evidence is questioned for being anecdotal, hearsay, or of otherwise dubious quality, you point to further anecdotal, hearsay, or otherwise dubious evidence.

There are many, many accounts of the Mongolian death worm, throughout the ages. Everyone knows about it. No one has ever been able to find one, though. As such, there is no reason to believe it exists. The remedy for bad evidence is good evidence, not just more bad evidence.

It doesn't matter how many stories you rack up. Without better evidence, your hypothesis is unsupported.

I grew up in a strict Christian household. I grew up with seemingly reasonable adults telling me "true" stories of demonic possession and the principalities and powers and poltergeist activity and moments of clarity as we see past the veil and all that stuff. Story upon story upon story from respectable members of society. Smart people with educations and good jobs. If you questioned the veracity of these stories, you'd just be given more stories.

I have never seen a demon. I have never seen poltergeist activity. I have never seen possession. I have never seen any of this stuff.

I have also never seen the crippled walk. I've never seen sight restored. I've never seen cancer melt away.

But all of these things are very, very, very well-supported by anecdotal evidence.

And all of it is bunk.

Sorry; I'm a grownup. I don't accept stories as evidence for stories' veracity anymore.

It's entirely possible that aliens are here. It's also entirely possible demons and angels are duking it out right now. It's also possible that miraculous healing is a real thing.

But the evidence offered does not conclusively support those hypotheses.

thanks, I hesitated to even post it here because this subreddit has become so full of degraded trash for the past few years, so much so that it's hardly even worth reading as entertainment anymore, but thanks for your input, you're the type of reader I posted it for!

Thanks for this. Sometimes I think about Fermi's Paradox. Where is everybody? This, together with other solid bits of info, helps in my knowledge of the universe.

you're the type of reader I posted it for!

Illiterate mouthbreathers?

No, that would be your type.

I'm assuming you think astronauts and colonels and NATO commanders are insane con men or crackpots then, yes, and we should all take your thoughts as the leading light in this subject?

Did I not say that I believe them?

Or, rather, that I believe that they believe themselves.

But none of those people are any more qualified to comment on this subject than you or I. With these stories, we're always told the person's job, because we're supposed to buy the party line that these people are better than us, and we should therefore listen to them.

They aren't. They are dudes with jobs. Astronauts are pilots. Colonels are soldiers.

You know who would be experts on the right kinds of information to have an informative opinion on this subject, though? Astrophysicists. Astronomers. Biologists. But you know what? They typically have a pretty similar opinion to mine.

Because they actually know what they're talking about.

Those videos? Seen 'em. I have lurked /r/ufos for years, and used to post daily with an old account. One of the reasons I left Reddit for awhile was how disappointingly thick that sub is. Is CaerBannog still posting? I don't know how he had the energy to, day after day, make exactly the point I made above—extraterrestrial life is certain, but all of these stories and theories are bunk.

If you looked for the evidence, you would find it. If you mean "recovered crashed objects", why on earth would you assume that the relevant responsible bodies would ignore their duty and NOT recover it and then classify as secret the entire incident?

So we're in agreement, then, that there is no evidence, only stories.

'Cause that's the only "evidence" you listed. Stories.

This is the UFO mindset:

"The aliens are here!!!"

"Really? Where's the evidence?"

"The government stole it!"

"How do you know?"

"I read that they did on the internet!"

"Okay, so why do you believe."

"Because of the evidence!!!"

"Really? Where's the evidence?"

Repeat.

Everything you just said supports my argument that there is no reason to believe that we are being visited by aliens. You have actually attempted to rebut my argument with arguments I'm specifically rebutting.

You aren't actually 'rebutting' anything, you seem to be trying to use me to make yourself feel intelligent, only without the actual 'being intelligent about something' part. You're going "AH HA! So you agree that your logical statement is logical? So there! Then that means it's debunked!", it doesn't actually make any sense.

you seem to be trying to use me to make yourself feel intelligent

Actually, I'm really just trying to use you as a perfect example of why no rational person should accept the ET hypothesis. I'm doing that by preemptively responding to the exact arguments I know you're going to throw at me, because I've been doing this for a long time. But, bizarrely, you then respond to my rebuttals to the standard arguments... with the exact ones I've already explained are bunk.

Slow down. Read. You are not talking to someone who just shouts "Bah! Humbug!" at every novel idea he hears. If I were that kind of person, I wouldn't hang around /r/conspiracy looking for interesting angles and ways to think about the world we live in. I wouldn't keep up with UFO stuff. I wouldn't read up on psi research (most of which is bunk, too—statistical errors abound). I don't do this stuff so I can feel superior. I do it because in my heart I hope they're true.

But wanting something to be true should never result in believing it to be true.

I think it would be awesome if ETs were here. I think it would be awesome if interstellar travel were actually possible for species like us.

But there is no reason to actually believe that.

You are really just a religious zealot of a different stripe. You believe because you believe because you believe. Arguing with you is exactly as pointless as arguing with a creationist. You just keep pointing back at your favorite folklore as evidence for your favorite folklore's veracity.

Lol. You are ignoring reality in favor of your personal superstitions and biases. There is no way to communicate effectively with someone who ignores anything that doesn't fit their personal cultural bias. We are done talking.

There is no way to communicate effectively with someone who ignores anything that doesn't fit their personal cultural bias.

Yeah... That's what I've been saying. You have no reason to believe the ET hypothesis. You just do.

I point that out.

You think I'm saying that the ET hypothesis is wrong.

I clarify that I think that it's possible, but unlikely, given the lack of evidence.

You accuse me of uncritical belief. But that's just the point: I don't believe anything. I believe that sometimes weird shit happens, and we don't know what it is. The end.

You're the one who believes he has the Key to the Alien Conspiracy.

I have seen a UFO. It was a light that moved slowly through the sky, back and forth. I thought it was a helicopter or something. But then it just shot straight up and out of sight.

I have absolutely no reason to believe that it was an alien craft.

Wat

Wat

Yeah, "wat" indeed.

"What else could it beeeeeee???"

Fucking anything. Nothing. Something. It is impossible to know.

It's not even possible to know if I really saw that, or if it was just my eyes/brain playing tricks on me.

The alien hypothesis is one without evidence. Those who believe it make the mistake of setting it as the null. If no other hypothesis checks out, then aliens. But that's not a null hypothesis. The null hypothesis is "I don't know."

The alien hypothesis is no better supported by the gods/demons hypothesis or the mass hysteria hypothesis. They are all lacking.

Just because the aliens one is the one you wish to be true doesn't mean you can set that up as your null hypothesis.

I don't wish one hypothesis to be true more than any other, actually. But how many man made craft are you aware of that can "shoot straight up and out of sight"?

You're sounding like Scully from X-Files. "Mulder, I was abducted by aliens. There isn't enough evidence to support the existence of aliens".

thanks, I hesitated to even post it here because this subreddit has become so full of degraded trash for the past few years, so much so that it's hardly even worth reading as entertainment anymore, but thanks for your input, you're the type of reader I posted it for!

I feel for you so bad right now, the ignorance here is incredible. Never have would I imagine people would actually comment on something before having even looked into it's subject matter, but this sub proves me wrong.

Been reading UFO drivel pretty regularly since the 80s. Started out believing. Ultimately realized that it's the same handful of stories repeated over and over, and there is not shred one of evidence for any of it.

It's not a romantic position. But it's the right one.

accepting your thoughts, how about you move on to talking about something that isn't a test, which is why there is plenty of extra stuff included in the post here?

Can you tell me how those are "an nsa test"?

I don't wish one hypothesis to be true more than any other, actually. But how many man made craft are you aware of that can "shoot straight up and out of sight"?

You're sounding like Scully from X-Files. "Mulder, I was abducted by aliens. There isn't enough evidence to support the existence of aliens".