I personally find it irrelevant that they say it was an accident. If you plan on bombing the shit out of something your to be held responsible for what ever "accidents" you claim you've made. Especially innocent lives. Can hitler say he made a boo boo in his aim to promote a superior race? Can a terrorist, bomb a location and say he made a mistake about it? Well no, no he can't. The fact that it happened is the fact that a war crime was committed. This heartless American government has to be held responsible to the fullest extent of international law.

This heartless American government has to be held responsible to the fullest extent of international law.

Describe "held responsible".

A noose would suffice.

You want to hang the heartless American government? That doesn't even mean anything.

So what's your opinion?

I think MSF should get the independent investigation they are asking for, which would be in compliance with the Geneva Convention. I would reserve further judgement based on the results of that.

Well, you seem to have a lot more faith in the U.S. government than I do.

Second that. But who would they prosecute?

Brought to justice? Executed or life sentence sounds like a start. It may sound harsh but think about how many innocent people died horrifically because of the politicians. It's only fair. To be specific those who ordered the strike, those who carried out the strike and possibly those who started the whole false war operative in the first place.

But for whom exactly? The pilot? Commanders? How far up the chain? The president? The people that made the bombs?

All those who ordered and partook in the actions. That is basically what the Nuremberg principles says. The pilot cannot claim he was "just doing my job". All military people are held responsible for their actions.

That's exactly what he was doing. If you're going to say someone should be punished the piloet is the last person who should be. You don't get to pick and choose what you want to do when you join the military.

All military personnel are expected to refuse to carry out illegal orders - as this clearly was. As much as the military will brainwash people into following orders, "just doing my job" - following orders - is not a legal excuse.

How was the pilot to know what the building was? His brief says it's an enemy building, he was told it's an enemy building, it looks no different than any other buildings when he flies by...

Good to know.

Wrong. The pilot merely delivers tue bomb the ground commander buys it.

Go raad some jpubs.

Please read - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_principles#Principle_IV

Sigh, bombs and artillery don't work like that.

pedantic and a devil's advocate, lol my favourite. If it can be proven the president ordered the strike than yes. Obviously those who construct the bombs wouldn't be included in the charge. That's just silly. I'll sum it up in the sense that Anyone who knowingly played their part in the war crime is prosecuted.

Whenever you have such questions remember this;

The American people are on average quite stupid, and live their lives entirely within a bubble of propaganda and obfuscation.

Please. Stop making sense.

We have also been conditioned (IMO) to think only about our very immediate surroundings, I know a ton of people that refuse to follow international politics at all.

I know a lot of people who feel international politics is too controversial so they just ignore the subject entirely in lieu of football.

I wouldn't say Americans are quite stupid, I would say we have the best intelligence,the best military and even if China, Russia and everyone else tried to stop us they would get destroyed easily, america is a grownman and the rest of the world is a bunch of ankle bitters that can't do shit. This is all in Americans plan bring it on phaggots.

Case in point right here.

I can't help but feel they were being facetious.

I wish they were but 'Murica...

Edit: <- American

I have met plenty of people like this. There are more informed Americans than you think, and trust me, the ones dumb enough to believe this are not literate. There are dumb hicks, but all they do is watch football and get drunk.

The problem in America is that everyone is taught by society not to discuss things that "hurt". You don't talk about the murders, you talk about the babies and the children. Try and bring up the truth of "behind the scenes" and everyone will act like you're a downer or blatantly ignore you.

At home you can talk about these things with people, but they'd rather change the subject or continue staring blankly at the tv. At work you're busy, so you can't have a good conversation. Everyone has an excuse, and that's why I call America the country of excuses.

Very well-put position but there are so many right-centered Southerners who might disagree with you. I feel I'm "probably" one of the more informed coming from a slightly better well-versed family w/nominal grammatical knowledge of English and politics in general.

While I completely appreciate your point, I am not one to only discuss "babies and children". I'm not afraid of talking hard facts, esp. about police/enforcement and government in general. However, I definitely understand your statement about America ignoring core issues and cherry picking it's news.

I hope so. But I've met too many people who aren't, both online and offline.

It's not just americans, it's humans. The average is a lot worse than you think it is because "the visible" is far above "the average".

Because they don't show this stuff on public television news outlets. Half or most of the country is blissfully unaware that the US is harming anyone

Insanity

It was done for a purpose. They are playing 3D chess.

In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens, you can bet it was planned that way.

-Franklin D. Roosevelt

[deleted]

• "In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens you can bet it was planned that way."

There are no records of Roosevelt having made such a statement, and this is most likely a misquotation of the widely reported comment he made in a speech at the Citadel (23 October 1935): "Yes. we are on the way back — not by mere chance, not by a turn of the cycle. We are coming back more soundly than ever before because we planned it that way, and don't let anybody tell you differently."

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Franklin_D._Roosevelt#Misattributed

[deleted]

I was supporting your claim, nothing slight about that misquote at all. It was twisted from being about an economic recovery plan to being about politics in general.

Really, the only two similarities they had was sharing a few words.

"Can we stop using 'quotes' that have no evidence from said person"

Is that Voltiare?

Yeah, he reddits from the spirit realm these days

Did Obama Bomb Doctors Without Borders for Opposing TPP?

The plan involves not allowing any group or organization to remain neutral.

Doctors without border did not discriminate towards race, politics or religion - they treat anyone that needs aid.

This was not acceptable to the US, and the hospital had to be bombed.

That seems like a rather extreme position on the US. Why do you think that?

They don't think their enemies deserve medical aid. Doctors without Borders give anyone medical aid, and the US sees that as an act of defiance.

Not such an outlandish position to have for a country that also bombs wedding parties.

I rather think they bombed the MSF hospital because it was an obstacle of sorts, a place whose very existence made restrictive claims (placed impositions and restrictions) on the U.S. military’s total ‘decisionality ‘ over Kunduz at any given moment, and so they destroyed it, at the cost of claiming it was an accident. Now military decisionality is no longer hindered by a foreign element reliant upon and representative of ‘international law’, which the U.S. abhors to recognize in circumstances where it may serve as an imposition on it, where it may function as a subtractor of decisionality and control.

Well said.

Especially knowing that this kind of stuff only get, at most, a brief amount of coverage in the media (if any at all).

Thanks, I will borrow this comment to try to change people's minds like my dad, but its an uphill battle to say the least.

Coincidence?

http://www.msf.ca/en/trans-pacific-partnership

The negative impact on public health will be enormous:' Statement by MSF on the conclusion of Trans-Pacific Partnership negotiations in Atlanta

MSF (Doctors without Borders) expresses its dismay that TPP countries have agreed to United States government and multinational drug company demands that will raise the price of medicines for millions by unnecessarily extending monopolies and further delaying price-lowering generic competition. The big losers in the TPP are patients and treatment providers in developing countries. Although the text has improved over the initial demands, the TPP will still go down in history as the worst trade agreement for access to medicines in developing countries, which will be forced to change their laws to incorporate abusive intellectual property protections for pharmaceutical companies.

At the very least, an interesting point.

I was given this reason in response to my comment here:

Its not video of them talking, its a recording of comms. I'm not going to engage with you on this, because quite frankly, i feel that you have an opinion already formed, i could sit here and try to explain concepts like 'fog of war' 'target misidentification' how not logical it is to halt an entire 'offensive' on the part of AC-130 Gunship's dumbass crew. I doubt you even know what an AC-130 Gunship is (its not a helicopter), i'm not saying that no one should be held guilty, because clearly there was a fuck up somewhere on the line. It could have been a FiSTer or a JTAC with the case of the stupids, it could have been terry taliban taking potshots at U.S. Forces from the clinic, while 'spooky' was haunting the sky, or hell, the 155 on the 'spooky' might have ND'ed. I don't know i wasn't there. All i am saying is, don't build your opinion on some disdain you have for U.S. Troops.

Edit: This user continues:

I didn't even mention the video you posted. In this little interaction, you have assumed based on nothing, alot more than i have. I took your apparent lack of knowledge on subjects military, which you demonstrated, and merely said 'i don't think you would be open to a differing point of view,' I never even said U.S. troops weren't at fault, in fact i gave you scenarios were the blame was laid purely at the feet of U.S. Personnel, i never even said blowing up a hospital was okay. I only said 'this was a mistake, here are some possibilities as to what they were' you took that, and painted a picture of me as some sort of monster. You want to hear what i think about that gun cam video? I don't have an opinion, i wasn't there, but from what i saw, what the pilots saw, there were several military age males with AKs and what appeared to be an RPG, rocket propelled grenade launcher, and a ground element right up the street. To protect my brothers on the ground, i would have lit them up too. Its a fucking terrible thing, its an awful waste of life. Fuck ups happen though, doesn't detract from the calamity, they just happen. You took my lack of comment on that video, and my doubtfulness that U.S. troops willing fired on unarmed doctors for no reason, to mean i am a monster. This is exactly what i meant, you built your own narrative, and cast me in the role of the villian, simple because i am in the U.S. Military, and dared to question your narrative of the U.S. Air Force as blood thirsty murder Machines. Not once did i try to excuse this, I simply said i don't think this was intentional. You're kind of an asshole, and even worse, a self rightious one. Not once in a decade long military career have i been order to fire on defenseless civilians, thats a movie trope and you know it.

...and...

Ah. Ten seconds worth of research, which i should have done early. Looks like it was afghan personnel called in an Airstrike from an orbiting AC-130, and marked thier target wrong, or sent in the wrong grid. Sorry, kiddo. Looks like this one falls in the Afghanni's lap. I guess U.S. troops aren't the slaughter-vikings you want them to be.

Honestly, I don't know how to respond to this person who is dead set on defending the mistake of our military. Heck, he even blames it on the "Afghannis." So brainwashed, it's sickening.

It's like, if I made a wrong turn in a car because my passenger said so and hit a car, I should just say, 'hey it's an accident I don't need to be held accountable. It's the passengers fault! No need to trade insurance details'

No, you see, this is WAR, albeit a fabricated war, but in war, the aggressor can do and say whatever he likes.

He sounds like a true soldier devoted till the end; a successful brainwashing if I have ever seen one.

Agreed...he's still a person who is worth having his soul and brain made clean, but I don't think he wants that. His other comments in that thread are proof of that. This video is going to seem rude, but it helps explain a lot...

Defending and explaining aren't the same thing

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[deleted]

I read up on the incident you're claiming. Apparently there was no proof and the US Navy denied and shut it down pretty easily. Stop talking like your theories are fact.

[deleted]

As I said, "pretty easily". And besides, what could they possibly gain from lying about this?

[deleted]

Nice ad hominem.

On a serious note though, what makes you think I'm trying to troll you?

Stockholm Syndrome.

Too many people are comfortable with the way things are, and therefore defend the system that ensures it stays that way.

There was no justice for MH17 victims either. Governments do whatever the fuck they want because they control the police and the army and not enough people want to riot.

The United States Government wastes a shitload of money on propaganda on social media.

Im American.

Tons of people do actually believe it was an accident and it sickens me. All we can do is bring it up when possible and try to stop the propaganda machine.

I'm American as well. There's no point in bringing it up, no one cares. Even if they believe it was wrong, etc. they just don't care. Everyone has work/school/kids and that saps all of their energy.

It's a sad tragedy that the only way to escape the bullshit is to die.

Think of it that way:

It is a confirmation. Many of us thought, hell, yea, maybe a few shiteaters in the higher echolons are straight up evil, but what the fuck, the average american is not evil...

Sorry to say, but the average american is desensitized, which is much much worse.

They look at trhe casualty totals, and go, meh, we have had worse yesterday, lets see how the Kardashians are doing.

It pains me to say this, but Trump may not be the president that everyone wants, but the president they deserve.

But I keep hearing that russia isn't using smart bombs, so the US is better.

The strategy is to create outrage and thus more tewwowists.

The propaganda campaign has been a smashing success . Folks don't know up from down and right from wrong

No one wants to believe that they themselves are the "bad guys." We are tightly bound, in psyche, to our home countries. When our country's government, which we feel an extension on ourselves, does something heinous and wrong, we cannot reconcile it with our image of self and country and at that point we'll do any kind of logical gymnastics available to twist the situation into one in which "we" are "good." Accepting stupid explanations that defy common sense so as not to have to face up to the wrong? Yes, please, I'll take anything I can get to keep my positive self-image intact.

Simple human psychology.

Terrorism was waning in Afghanistan, how else do you reignite a shitstorm? Bomb/murder women/children/sick so their family will continue to hate you for generations, aka...Obama's faggy drone policy. Keep the terrorist theater on the road.

American elite "ehhh, fuck you. Accident. Hospital. Blah blah blah. Fuck you."

Americans just don't care about anything happening in a country ending in "stan". They regard it all as Bumfuckistan and refuse to think about it.

Which is why they placidly chew their cuds while the propaganda machine spins.

They published a protest against the TTIP and were bombed for it.

They've changed the story four times. That's no accident. http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/oct/06/doctors-without-borders-airstrike-afghanistan-us-account-changes-again

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity"

I don't think the US has reached the point of bombing hospitals intentionally. Mistakes DO happen often in the military.

edit: I do agree that some one needs to pay for this.

Did Obama Bomb Doctors Without Borders for Opposing TPP?

What if the drone operator was an anti-government plant?

Isn't this conspiracy?

The shots didn't come from a drone, it came from an AC-10 (I think? Can't remember). Basically a low flying plane with a bunch of big-ass guns.

AC-130. But otherwise you're correct.

Please. Stop making sense.

I wouldn't say Americans are quite stupid, I would say we have the best intelligence,the best military and even if China, Russia and everyone else tried to stop us they would get destroyed easily, america is a grownman and the rest of the world is a bunch of ankle bitters that can't do shit. This is all in Americans plan bring it on phaggots.

We have also been conditioned (IMO) to think only about our very immediate surroundings, I know a ton of people that refuse to follow international politics at all.