Herbs don't work, except when they do. Antidepressants work, except when they don't.
82 2015-12-02 by 911bodysnatchers322
Actually tired of this
Tired of the establishment trying to so hard to discredit alternative medicine. I'm going to drop some science on them -- their own science, an act of detournement that would surely give them exploding head syndrome if they didn't have mile-thick-bodysnatcher-defenses against their willfully-obstinate, cognitive dissonances.
Conspiracy to Demonize Pytopharmaceuticals
Medical Authorities (ex: NIH, Webmd, WHO, etc) oscillate between demonizing herbs as dangerous and then disregarding them, smugly, as 'ineffective'. It's typical controlled opposition behavior, to create cognitive dissonance, confusion and confounding so that no one discovers the truth. Which is their problem with herbs: that they sometimes work (demonstrated below), and sometimes they work better than anything they can fool you into spending a lot of money on (more on this below.)
Naturopathy / herbalism holds that one should do no harm, this means not taking risk, which means gentle fixes, coaxing the body into wellness. But we now have access to increasingly stronger extracts, and more people willing to take larger "risks" with supplements. This is good if you know what you are doing, bad if you don't. The latter forms the basis with which the establishment has on many occasions (FDA) attempted to 'protect us' from ourselves--you know, us morons--by limiting what we can buy at the store. This is a ruse. Because they said it themselves, the dang things don't work!
That said, herbalists and practitioners like myself who do actual research know that If herbs work in a small way, in tea, then if you concentrate their pharmacologically active chemical components, you will have a formulation that can compete with a pharmaceutical offering. Uh oh, suddenly there is competition.
That's precisely what has happened, since the advent of pressurized solvent extractions such as butanolic (popular in cannabis mmjds), or supercritical fluid extractions (SC02) used in high tech herbalism such as used by New Chapter and Gaia herbs supplements.
In contrast, some antidepressants have been outed as placebos, and here's more info on webmd about it, with links to the studies. The reason people have reported them working is because they are clearly psychotropic--they make you think and feel overtly, noticeably different. The tingling means: it's working. (Except that it's not, but your hopefulness is.)
This, to my mind, is a conspiracy, albeit more of a perception / deception war -- a conspiracy of profit-motivated, disinformation promoting annoyance, astroturfing. It's pernicious. It's vile. And it's hurting people because it's keeping them from inexpensive, easy and more healthful solutions than what doctors have to offer in many cases (one-trick pony penicillin overuse that's causing resistant bacteria).
NIH's very misleading herbal outreach pages
On the NIH 'complementary and integrative healt' outreach pages, 'herbs at a glance page' links to infopages that display only a few prominent medical uses of each herb, universally followed by a disclaimatory statement of 'there being not enough evidence to support these claims'.
But if you search for those claims on NIH itself, you'll often find studies, numbers and the results--why not list those on the corresponding herb page? Oh that's right, because you want to give the run-down, which is that herbs "don't really work." At what point does the highmost medical authority in the world decide if there is sufficient evidence? Does it need Daddy FDA's approval to verify the science that's already verified? Don't they know FDA is informed by specifically by NIH studies?
Curious, what's Omitted
As an herbal practitioner of decades, I find it most interesting that some of the most effective herbs are not represented on that page. Specifically Origanum vulgare (oregano), Thymus vulgaris (thyme), Rosmarinus officianalis (rosemary), Syzygium aromaticum (clove). If I were a professional, I would I recommend these above all others. And this would be tempered by the knowledge of evidenced based pharmacological effects cited across an overwhelming number of NIH studies, specifically.
Finally, the Science
The aforementioned grouping of aromatic herbs are among the most powerful because of the most prominent chemical constituents they contain--primarly the following terpenes:
NIH Studies on these herbs
- Chemical constituents and biological studies of Origanum vulgare Linn.
- Chemical composition and biological activity of the essential oil of Origanum vulgare ssp. hirtum from different areas in the Southern Apennines (Italy).
- Chemical composition and antimicrobial activity of the essential oil of Rosemary
- Chemical composition and antifungal activity of rosemary (Rosmarinus officinalis L.) oil from Turkey.
- Carvacrol induces the apoptosis of pulmonary artery smooth muscle cells under hypoxia. -- gets rid of malfunctioning lung cells
- Antibacterial action against food-borne microorganisms and antioxidant activity of carvacrol-rich oil from Lippia origanoides Kunth.
- Comparative evaluation of the antimicrobial activity of 19 essential oils.
- Inhibition of Staphylococcus aureus cocktail using the synergies of oregano and rosemary essential oils or carvacrol and 1,8-cineole.
- [The antibacterial activity of oregano essential oil (Origanum heracleoticum L.) against clinical strains of Escherichia coli and Pseudomonas aeruginosa].
- Inhibition of enteric parasites by emulsified oil of oregano in vivo.
- Biological and pharmacological activities of carvacrol and carvacrol bearing essential oils.
- Antiviral efficacy and mechanisms of action of oregano essential oil and its primary component carvacrol against murine norovirus.
- The antimicrobial activity of microencapsulated thymol and carvacrol.
- Comparative study on the antioxidant and biological activities of carvacrol, thymol, and eugenol derivatives.
- Antinociceptive Effect of Aqueous Extract of Origanum vulgare L. in Male Rats: Possible Involvement of the GABAergic System -- antinociceptive means 'pain killer', oregano has painkilling properties in rats.
- ANTIMICROBIAL ACTIVITY, ANTIOXIDANT ACTIVITY AND CHEMICAL COMPOSITION OF ORIGANUM ONITES L. AND ORIGANUM VULGARE L. SSP. HIRTUM (LINK) IETSWAART FROM MUGLA (TURKEY)
- Biological activities of the essential oils and methanol extract of Origanum vulgare ssp. vulgare in the Eastern Anatolia region of Turkey
- Subinhibitory concentrations of thymol reduce enterotoxins A and B and alpha-hemolysin production in Staphylococcus aureus isolates. -- amounts of thymol (thyme / oregnano oil) too low to kill staph (MRSA) inhibit it's toxic products
- Eugenol: a phyto-compound effective against methicillin-resistant and methicillin-sensitive Staphylococcus aureus clinical strain biofilms. -- eugenol from thyme/clove/oregano kills MRSA, clove highest in eugenol.
- Selected Antimicrobial Essential Oils Eradicate Pseudomonas spp. and Staphylococcus aureus Biofilms
- Chemical composition, antimicrobial, antioxidant and antitumor activity of Thymus serpyllum L., Thymus algeriensis Boiss. and Reut and Thymus vulgaris L. essential oils
- Anti-inflammatory activity of 1.8-cineol (eucalyptol) in bronchial asthma: a double-blind placebo-controlled trial
- Antibacterial activity of the essential oils from the leaves of Eucalyptus globulus against Escherichia coli and Staphylococcus aureus.
- Human Coronavirus Antiviral and Virucidal activities of oreganol p73 (Origanum vulgare hirtum oil)
- Oregano: chemical analysis and evaluation of its antimalarial, antioxidant, and cytotoxic activities.
- Inhibition of enteric parasites by emulsified oil of oregano in vivo.
- Antimicrobial effectiveness of oregano and sage essential oils incorporated into whey protein films or cellulose-based filter paper.
- Development of an oregano-based ointment with anti-microbial activity including activity against methicillin-resistant Staphlococcus aureus.
- Use of rosemary, oregano, and a commercial blend of essential oils in broiler chickens: in vitro antimicrobial activities and effects on growth performance.
- Antibacterial activities of naturally occurring compounds against antibiotic-resistant Bacillus cereus vegetative cells and spores, Escherichia coli, and Staphylococcus aureus.
- Oregano extract ointment for wound healing: a randomized, double-blind, petrolatum-controlled study evaluating efficacy.
- Oregano: properties, composition and biological activity.
- A study of the minimum inhibitory concentration and mode of action of oregano essential oil, thymol and carvacrol.
- Effect of gamma radiation and oregano essential oil on murein and ATP concentration of Staphylococcus aureus.
- Effects of oregano, carvacrol and thymol on Staphylococcus aureus and Staphylococcus epidermidis biofilms.
- Phytochemical constituents and inhibitory activity towards methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus strains of Eryngium species (Apiaceae).
- MRSA could be wiped out with... OREGANO, say British scientists
- Himalayan Oregano Effective Against MRSA
- Oregano could help eradicate MRSA superbug
- Compositions containing thymol and carvacrol and methods of treating gastrointestinal infections with the compositions -- someone patented use of oregano in compound formulas for treating ulcers and gi infections. I really doubt it would hold up in court. That's like patening a sucrose in formulas. Useful part of this is the table of activity (scroll down)
- Correlation of the chemical composition of essential oils from Origanum vulgare subsp. virens with their in vitro activity against pathogenic yeasts and filamentous fungi.
- In Hopes of Healthier Chickens, Farms Turn to Oregano
- Dose-dependent effect of oregano (Origanum vulgare L.) on lipid peroxidation and antioxidant status in 1,2-dimethylhydrazine-induced rat colon carcinogenesis.
- Origanum vulgare induces apoptosis in human colon cancer caco2 cells. -- Oregano effective against human colon cancer -- kind of a big deal.
- Oregano: chemical analysis and evaluation of its antimalarial, antioxidant, and cytotoxic activities.
- Effects of a Combination of Thyme and Oregano Essential Oils on TNBS-Induced Colitis in Mice
- Anti-proliferative effects of carvacrol on a human metastatic breast cancer cell line, MDA-MB 231.
(I think I made my point. Sorry if there are redundancies in this copypasta. This is obviously not all inclusive.)
Bonus: "street drugs" are good for you to, assholes! (not you the reader, the discreditors)***
- NIH omits cannabis in all forms as a valid herb, despite over 30 studies they performed to prove its merit. This one's a no-brainer though: it's illegal.
- Are mushrooms an herb? Psilocybin mushrooms have over 10 studies on NIH demonstrating profoundly positive effects for a number of maladies.
- Even LSD is listed as a potential but unlikely treatment for alchoholism.
Conclusion
There's a saying about how one must try their own soup before giving to others. I googled, could not find. The idea is that when using herbalism you have to try it yourself first, to learn from it, to know it is safe. This is something medical doctors do not do. I asked my doctor if he'd ever taken the ketamine therapy himself. "Of course not" he said matter-of-factly. This was surprising to me, given the grandiosity of the effects (level 5 psychedelic experience -- reality 100% destroyed)
Those who practice herbalism responsibly--on themselves first--view herbal supplements as an inexpensive, long term solution with (permanent) results. Tell you're doctor you're taking oregano pills and they'll roll their eyes at you,
"well you'll smell like a pizza but it's probably harmless." --actual doctor said this to me.
Pizza the above science, bitch. It kills the MRSA your dirty hospital gave my mom and 5 other people I know.
You tell them it's worked for you, and again, eye roll, "yep, that's the placebo effect at work." Given that this placebo thing works so much better than what they're selling, it's a shame we can't market and sell these placebo things. We'd cure everyone and make a killing.
31 comments
13 metabolix 2015-12-02
Nice work! I completely agree, medical industry has been corrupted to the core. They especially profit by keeping you sick.
8 sixoverfive 2015-12-02
Great collection of articles. I don't know anything about herbalism myself so I am not going to enter into that discussion but I definitely agree with your points on medical practices and how screwed up everything is.
And these days every little thing that you might think is wrong with you you go to the doctor. Have a little cough for longer than a week, go to a doctor and get medicine. Constipated? Medicine. Feeling down? Medicine. Stubbed your toe? Medicine.
Anyway, here's fun little article about how when doctors around the world go on strike the mortality rate seems to paradoxically drop. I once had a better source from Israel about how in one month of doctor's strikes the mortality rate dropped by a whopping 30%. I'll have a look for that article.
-1 oelsen 2015-12-02
just eat right ffs, then most of those substances are automatically in your food
1 911bodysnatchers322 2015-12-02
You'd have to eat 1/4 acre of oregano. That's a big-a meatball-u
1 oelsen 2015-12-02
That is the weirdest argument.
When same amounts are considered by x-trailers or environmentalists, then the tinyist amount is harmful, but 1/4 acre of herbs over years e.g. making it an integral part of your diet has no effect whatsoever?
2 911bodysnatchers322 2015-12-02
upvoted for being true, nothings cut and dry and anyone saying so isnt being honest
no one is talking about eating acres of something as an integral part of the diet. i'm talking about taking them medicinally (short term), not alimentarily (long term). Medicinally with herbs means weak / tea over a long time, or a lot over a short time. I would recommend someone take oregano for only a week and then stop (no one drinks oregano tea--yuk). Yes, you are right that large doses taken, especially large doses over time take the same toll on your liver and kideys as would any pharmaceutical product. That said, a key difference is that these herbal extracts, although potent, are also crude. Which means they have hundreds of compounds in them, so the idea that it takes all the more massive a dose to incur the toxic effects of any one chemical in the 'soup'--this inherently makes crude extracts safer, so long as there is not any known toxic constituent in it (like in chinese licorice or comfrey as examples)
6 Fuckaduckfuckaduck 2015-12-02
Holy fucking shit, well done.
Pay attention, folks. That is how you put together a post.
I applaud you, and I agree with you 100%. The medical industry is crooked as fuck, and as more and more research shows that alternative medicine does in fact work, you can expect the slander and downright malicious attacks on alternative medicine to continue, and escalate.
It's absolutely disgusting.
2 911bodysnatchers322 2015-12-02
:)
6 average_shill 2015-12-02
Definitely a lot of truth here. I'm going on two years making pharmaceuticals first-hand and the industry is beyond fucked as you say. Management pulls every shady tactic in the book in the name of profits.
4 420baker 2015-12-02
Fantastic post, it should be stickied because I doubt Reddit will want this making front page.
1 911bodysnatchers322 2015-12-02
Thank you
3 [deleted] 2015-12-02
[deleted]
1 911bodysnatchers322 2015-12-02
I concur. Had the hardest time convincing people that "brain zaps" are real
3 OkRCa9N6utJe 2015-12-02
I'm not sure if this is a conspiratorial thing, or just capitalism at work. The medical industry makes its cash on selling crap, regardless of its effectiveness, and the average doctor will jump at it when asked specifically for a certain med. A lot of people feel a little sad, call it depression, and ask for antidepressants. It's long been known and documented in the medical literature that antidepressants generally don't work, and they only stand a chance at working if a serotonin re-uptake problem is the issue to begin with. Ahh, capitalism ... sell sell sell.
3 CharCzard 2015-12-02
its people like you, who put together well sourced self-posts, that make this community. Keep up the good work.
if this post doesn't receive the energy you were hoping for, consider coming over to /r/C_S_T
1 911bodysnatchers322 2015-12-02
Hurray. Glad I earned back points I lost for my pay attention to gnostic usernames post I was rightly ridiculed for
2 AsmirDzopa 2015-12-02
Hey man soon I am to have a child and I am not sure if I should vaccinate my child at all. I have read that babies don't form immune systems until at least 6 months and I dont want to harm my child. Fortunately I live in a corrupt country so giving the doctor 30 bucks just for him to sign that the baby received its shots is easy to do. Im just not sure what I should do.
Sorry I dont mean to make this a /r/webmd type thing its just a question i need some help with and I would rather not ask people who profit from giving this shot.
4 fomhoraigh 2015-12-02
Shots are a tough thing. Because, scientifically, most of them work to an extent. However, they also introduce dangerous things into the body. And on top of all of that, you will be lied to constantly about them, and nobody at your hospital will actually know anything about them that wasn't regurgitated from the manufacturer.
You'll have to find the specific shots they offer, check out the research, run the math with risks based on the numbers (which are probably fudged by the manufacturer, sadly), and make your own decisions.
The #1 most important thing you can do for a newborn is breastfeed it as long as possible.
2 AsmirDzopa 2015-12-02
Thanks to you and the other person who answered. Breastfeeding is no problem and wife has already decided that that is the only way to go. I just dont know about the shots and no real information I can find.
1 zyklorpthehuman 2015-12-02
Don't allow the doctors to use a pacifier or formula, be prepared for them to pressure you or ignore your requests, they will say it's more beneficial. If you insist on breast feeding, as you should, they will pressure you to use both formula and breast feeding, completely ignoring the issue of nipple confusion.
Source: have family that worked as a social worker for pregnant teenagers and would spend 9 months explaining the benefits and pleading with mothers to breast feed, usually to no avail because the mother's misplaced trust in doctors overrules the 9 months of facts and mothers go right along with it. They'll say things like 'your baby needs to gain x amount of pounds, give them the formula full of fats.'
2 Akareyon 2015-12-02
Just commenting to join the choir - great OC deserving all the upvotes and attention, thanks for sharing!
1 911bodysnatchers322 2015-12-02
Thanks Akareyon. I emulate the best (yours and Molybd's posts on 911truth)
2 make_mind_free2go 2015-12-02
imo, herbs are more gentle & may take a longer time to 'work' but they're definitely safer & if used correctly have no side effect.
edit: more people should be informed.
1 911bodysnatchers322 2015-12-02
My personal belief is that with these superbugs: mrsa vrsa and the new " phantom menace" disease that is neutralizing gut health defenses and simultaneously weaponizing friendly flora (allegedly...thus is the new Ebola)... I believe herbal wide spectrum solutions are going to be more effective than regular treatments.
I say that because in the middle ages there was a group of people who survived the plague: perfumists, who became thieves. Perfumes then were made of essential oils of various plants, animal musk glands. These oils also had antiseptic, antimicrobial and pharmacological activity such as immunemodulating properties. Its believed that the historical "four thieves cure" was some combination of oils available and widely used at the time.
Thus would be the typical spice herbs I mentioned, but perfume wise lavender, rose, ginger, wood essences like spruce pine (male fragrances), Clary sage, bergamot, citrus, jasmine, patcholi, marigold, germanium, neroli, musks... Many of these have similar activity against pathogens but to a lesser degree than the ones in the original post.
No one really knows thape formula for 4 thieves. As with soma, the secrets are lost to time
1 make_mind_free2go 2015-12-02
interesting & it makes sense, i'm sure many pharms are just bad "copies" of natural plants/oils.
2 OligarchyMurica 2015-12-02
What are the supplements you take? I take quite a bit of herbal supplements not including drinking teas, like curcumin(theracumin), ashwagandha, rhodiola, bacopa, and lion's mane mushroom. I started taking these mostly because I liked the effects of a couple of supplements I was taking, Gaias herb adrenal stress formula being one. Looking forward to hear what you have to say !
Also, coconuts and coconut oil seems to have nearly magical properties but is all but ignored.
2 911bodysnatchers322 2015-12-02
I'm in a sucky situation with only a kundke fire today so forgive my brevity...typing on it sucks.
Those supplements are all very good esp for controlling inflammation. Whuch means immunomodulating. The lions mane and bacopa are good cognitive enhancers -- they are generally safe and effective, mild.
Be careful of any others for this purpose, specifically herbs with galantamine (,or hydergine). These are reversible acetylcholinesterase inhibitors which means you'll have more free acetykcholine in the system until its cleared usually 24 hrs..too much though is very bad...nausea, severe muscle cramps and can be fatal. Venoms and poisons are ACHel drugs.
This is the only category of herbalism I've run into where it was almost a medical problem for me (galantamine-- snowdrop extract)
Mycomedicinals are very good. Stamets' brand. Especially cordyceps and reishi. Turkey tail is so aggressive and common you can collect yourself, dry it grind it and capsule it for the price they charge at the store. I've done this and there are no "bad" imitators to turkey tail--its easy to identify.
Also chaga mushroom and agarikon. Stamets is cultivating agarikon and he's the only person on earth I believe. Because he spent months trying to find another viable specimen by boating along a conifer laden coastline with a crew using binoculars trying to spot the massive shelf fungus in the trees
1 bigasianpackage 2015-12-02
What is ironic is that the crowd of paid commenters who allege "anti-science" and use inflammatory or derogatory language, they are using neuroscience research to pass off a nonscientific dogmatic position as the opposite. https://youtu.be/VBbrr8HnKVo
1 newharddrive 2015-12-02
I get the impression that there is a great deal of individual difference in the reaction to drugs esp. mood altering substances.
1 [deleted] 2015-12-02
One thing though, I see you said that antidepressants have been outed as placebos, but when I checked the article my understanding from it was that the placebo effect has been shown to work as well as antidepressants, but I didn't see anyone calling out specific drugs as placebos.
Did I miss something? Was there a list of drugs sold as antidepressants that have been outed as placebos?
Edit: never mind it was in the WebMD link
1 overkill9829 2015-12-02
And let's not forget the hundreds of double blind clinical studies dome on turmeric
0 oelsen 2015-12-02
Too bad alternative medicine is covered by health insurance now, huh?
Oh, you murrican? Sorry
:D
1 911bodysnatchers322 2015-12-02
I would like to see herbalism and massage therapy (esp rolfing) be approved. I've known both of those modalities to be significantly effective. More so than physical therapy, which is to my mind, a joke. (they put a tens unit on you, bill insurance 300 dollars for the one session. I have a medical TENS unit from europe at home, it cost 120 dollars. So that was my first and last physical therapy session, let me tell you!) Then I go to massage therapy and for 80 (60+20 tip) and a hour, and I'm walking again without pain.