1) Subreddits apply rules arbitrarily to censor viral threads hitting the front page

2) People take this website too seriously

3) Let the subscribers and users decide what content should be displayed

Free Speech > Censorship

Let the community decide.

Basically this is a thread in which mods ask permission for censorship. I say NO, let us decide with the two arrows on the left.

Far from it.

This is a question that has stirred up controversy in many, many subreddits

So far, this thread is the fairest and most level headed approach to this controversy that I've seen anywhere

THe problem is that I didn't upvote it, and I doubt many other legitimate subscibers here did either. Because I found it difficult to read the meme, it was poorly done, and it's message was redundant. So I found it puzzling it was upvoted by people here, who I generally think are intelligent (except for the massive number of tourists).

I don't care about violation of rules. I care about gaming reddit to propagandize.

In light of these things, I believed that some group gamed this particular post with a bunch of artificial upvotes. I still find it difficult to believe those upvotes are real. I wish we had a way to verify; or if those upvotes could be weighted more towards people who have a combined karma in > 500 in this subreddit.

Imagine what the admins see going down in /r/worldnews -- the JIDF is out of control. IP/User patterns must be so blatant. One of the only subreddits where I see organized up/down voting on casual comments deep in threads. It's a normal convo and suddenly boom hit with -30. It's so rigged when those shills organize in a post.

I agree. Let the votes decide.

Let the shills decide.

I always figured that whoever came up with the idea to ban them had infiltrated the sub, and wanted to tie our hands, those types of posts can be incredibly influential and require little thought or time from the viewer

Posts that attack this sub, users or mods thereof, will be removed. Accusing another user of being a troll or shill can be viewed as an attack, depending on context. Repeat offenders are subject to a ban.

Don't violate rule 10!

No accusations of rules violations in comments. Please report violations.

Ugh I just violated rule 2. Have mercy.

You're safe. ;)

Let's assume that the r/conspiracy users typically upvote images far more often than any other type of post. Let's also assume that there are parties interested in what particular links hit the top slot on this subreddit, which goes to the main front page of all 340,000 subscribers. Perhaps tomorrow there will be a post that paints the Federal Reserve in a bad light on the top slot around 2pm EST. All the Federal Reserve shill has to do is log into a few accounts and throw up a couple images they have been saving. One of those images is bound to hit the top slot, especially if they give it a "push" in the beginning with a few extra accounts.

Would you consider this "censorship?" I certainly would, since pushing the top post to the second slot will cut off at least 90 percent of the potential viewers. The mods should keep this in mind if a great post has been displaced by a shitty image. By "censoring" the shitty image, they are actually preventing censorship.

2) People take this website too seriously

This is a serious website. I could spread information to thousands of people per day. I showed a few thousand people yesterday that their water could be contaminated. Water quality is a potentially life or death situation. I say that should be taken seriously.

Very well put. I was thinking more in terms of reaching /r/all, yet this is an even better point. For all those 300+k subscribers, only a fraction probably visit the page daily, but they will see the top post from this sub on their own frontpage.

If we treat censorship as preventing ideas from spreading, then upvoting shit posts to push out well-researched post is absolutely a form of censorship, and in my mind a much more dangerous and insidious form than banning low-effort image macro posts to prevent such abuse.

This makes me even more adamant in supporting the mods to block image macros.

Your second point seems to contradict the other two.

My personal take is images with words on them aren't memes.

Memes are things like suddenly clarity Clarence. Where the image is recycled garbage and the words are nothing more than a joke about something, regardless of if I agree with the punchline or not.

Frequently we have someone who thoughtfully overlays a picture of some historical figure with a quote from that person. I don't think of that as a meme. I think of it as an info graphic or a less boring way to present a thoughtful quote.

I think we should limit our definition of a meme, and the scope of rule 8 to deal exclusively with "sudden clarity Clarence" and similar things.

Seconded. This is a solid and practical approach, even though I also have nothing against actual memes being a part of this sub either.

Thirded.

but when they aren't factual it defeats the purpose of the sub reddit

Could you do a compromise with a mod-flair that points them out as image macros, and allow users to filter them out?

I personally hate seeing them with hundreds or thousands more upvotes than a well-written self.post, or a new source or piece of evidence on a topic of interest. If the post makes it to r/all, the discussion ends up devolving anyway, so my vote is to enforce rule 8 as you have been.

The picture of a person with a quote of theirs is different to my mind; as it's a good jumping off point for a decent discussion.

I don't think it's that hard, you would just have to have the mods flair the posts, and I don't know how much that would add to your mod load. At /r/C_S_T, we have the filter set up to filter our different flairs, but we are a much smaller sub, and we allow users to self-flair their posts.

If you're interested, I'll see who set up the filter system on C_S_T, and I'd be happy to help implement it if you would like.

I think we are talking about pretty much the same thing, CST just does it the other way, where you select which type of flair you want to see, not what you don't want to see. I think the worldnews style is more akin to what I was recommending for this sub.

The actual CSS would not be that difficult to do if you end up deciding that's the direction you'd like to take, but again, the mod load might be prohibitive, though probably not much more so than outright deleting the posts.

Piling on the thought here, I think it'd be helpful if meme/image macro posts were off in options by default until it reached a high arbitrary score threshold. /u/AssuredlyAThrowAway

I don't know how that could even be implemented in CSS, which is the only real tool mods have to customize their sub. Also, how would people even be able to see them to upvote them if they were turned off by default?

/u/CelineHagbard is a superstar, my man.

That is a very good suggestion. Thanks for that. I hope the mods read this.

You're asking for our opinion, but we already give our opinion by downvoting or upvoting? So remove the damn rule already haha.

This post isn't being evaluated on the strength of votes as that can be too easy manipulated by outside forces. The quality of arguments will be the deciding factor.

hmm yeah, good point. already forgot about vote manipulation.

That is the much bigger issue here; we're conflating the two. A picture with a description on it is not a meme. A meme is picture used again and a again with a category describing the picture where the description is an example. like GGG or first world problems....with examples.

A picture of soldiers guarding poppy fields and then stats on heroin production dipping on 9/11 is actually an INFOGRAPHIC

Meme != Infographic

How are we to think freely under a hoard of rules.

Freer is freer and I'm here in the first place so I can become more free.

Memes do not belong in this sub. Removing memes is not censorship since the user can express the same exact idea in a more in depth post. Censorship would be removing the ability to express an idea.

Such a good point. There's all this talk about censorship on this thread, yet I don't see that as what the mods are advocating. Censorship is prohibiting what ideas, what content, the sub may discuss, but what the mods are proposing is restricting the format this sub should allow.

I think you should continue to operate as you presently do: ban memes, and use your discretion as to when you will allow them.

Police everywhere use discretion. Sometimes the written law just shouldn't be enforced, for whatever particular reason has arisen in the situation. You will never have a perfect code of laws that should always be applied without exception. Written laws simply cannot anticipate every possible human situation in advance.

I say: Keep rule 8, and keep exercising discretion when enforcing it.

I appreciate /u/FlyTape's view that a macro image can be more like an infographic, and that a meme usually involves the re-use of an image.

In particular, a meme GIF usually involves the re-use of a suggestive image. For example:

• Socially-awkward penguin is used to transmit ideas involving a two-step process of awkwardness, then redemption.
• Dr. Evil and His Minions are used to transmit ideas involving evil authorities making evil conspiracies and laughing about the impact on the civilians.
• I Don't Always/Dos Equis is used as referential-to-TV humor suggesting that some action being contemplated is not to be taken lightly, but, if it is to be performed, should be performed to the max.

Ok, that list could go on and on, but you see the pattern: the image references a suggestion, the text fits a template of meanings and senses, and, presumably, the neural pathways activated have some neurons in common -- in particular the two-part twist that is used in each thought.

I think it might be worthwhile to ban all macro images that convey a thought-twist or otherwise hypnotizing message. But, today's macro image has that property, and wasn't that bad, really. It wasn't that great, either.

Recently, there was an Albert Pike macro-image which purportedly quoted Pike. It was not a meme: it didn't re-use an image / it was an image of the purported speaker or writer being quoted; it did not have a two-part-twist / it was just a quote.

But it also wasn't exactly information. There was no citation given allowing a person to even verify that the quote was reportedly made in a particular medium or at a particular time. For example, was this a quote from his purported visionary three world wars letter? Lack of a citation made the macro image a little bit more propaganda.

Propaganda wants the reader to believe with critique. The CIA introduces mental "slides" to prevent people from verifying facts. Extremists in the reality movement tend to use unsubstantiated "facts" or unverifiable references to do the same thing. Both sides are extremists using propaganda.

So, in short: use discretion. Be clear what you think a meme is, and don't disallow info-graphics. Be clear what you think is the difference between informing and propaganda. A thing can be wrong, but why would it hide the minimal information needed to converse about it.

This does not mean I think the sub should adopt the Wikipedia affectation of intelligence and skepticism (an oxymoron): {cn} or Citation Needed is not a reddit thing. I want to reply to comments without wasting my time gathering citations in the ever-changing Internet. When I want to spend my time doing that, I got to WIkipedia, which is better-indexed and maintained with an eye for information retrieval.

Anyway, carry on, don't change the rules. Except maybe ban some propaganda, and revoke Rule 10. ;)

Rule 10 is embarrassing.

agree 100%

No macros. Anything a macro says can be restated more intelligently in text itself.

I don’t think that a board that supports exposing conspiracy should be welcoming of weaponized memetics, particularly those explicitly designed to detract from intelligent discourse.

Yes, the “text–image–text” format is designed to appeal to the lowest common denominator, and that’s not what we want. Not of ourselves and not of anyone else, anywhere.

I think image macros can both be incredibly powerful in their succinct ability to deliver information (and sometimes highlight contradictions - such as the aforementioned Hilary post), but also think that in the same vein, they are most of the time the opposite of thought-provoking and generally do not instigate any meaningful discussions.

I'm torn on this (and have been for my years being active here) - where low-effort image-macro posts sometimes gain the top spot quickly and direct attention away from some very important topics and discussions that occur here (less so than in the past, but that's another discussion) more often than not.

I'd like to hold the community here to a higher standard, but realize that sometimes the topics here can get pretty heavy and a simple image macro/meme post that gets a discussion going can certainly be worthwhile.

We do have /r/conspiracymemes... but I'm not sure how much crossover exists between the two regarding subscribers.

I have seen posts and discussions like this generally slide the sub in a better direction than not - and maybe this type of discussion is all we need. I guess only time will tell.

We do have /r/conspiracymemes... but I'm not sure how much crossover exists between the two regarding subscribers.

Why wouldn't cross over exist, James? Both /r/conspiracy and /r/C_S_T are listed in the sidebar. You know that at least I personally subscribe to and read both subreddits. Maybe you mean something else and I'm confused by what you're saying?

I should say though I don't feel comfortable making an attempt to promote /r/ConspiracyMemes here because it is already listed in the sidebar. (For those of you that don't know it can be a HUGE pain in the neck to get sidebar formatting correct and there is a character limit.) I think it would detract from actual discussions taking place and this sub already has enough people doing that for more dubious reasons.

Finally if anyone has any questions relating to /r/ConspiracyMemes please feel free to contact me by private message, modmail or whatever way works best. I am a moderator of that subreddit.

I agree that sentence was poorly worded.

What I meant was the sub count isn't nearly the same between the two, and moving posts from here to there would certainly affect the amount of eyeballs that sees a particular post.

That's true it will impact how many get to see it. ConMemes is a very niche subreddit and that's part of why I hope the mod team decides to allow meme and image macros here as well. If the mod team decides otherwise oh well I at least I tried.

I think memes should be allowed. i thought this sub is for free speech

By 'memes' do you mean you support Conspiracy Keanu type posts or this or just image posts in a similar format?

I feel there's a distinction being missed here and people should be clear about their meaning.

Edit: Lol at the downvotes with no replies, I notice the people clamouring for 'free speech' also have the least to say...

Any post

So when TopMinds and Conspiratard conspire to fill the frontpage with low quality memes you'll be happy?

Ok i take it back

That's the problem with all posts, you know they would. Anything to hide the free flow of information about Govt. corruption.

We vote them down

Like all the low effort posts that hit the front page with 2000 upvotes? That clearly doesn't work already.

Slippery slope already -- you want to censor memes yet have other content in mind that would fall under this same umbrella of "low effort" posts. Lol

Would you honestly prefer to lose the sub to shitposting though? We're just trying to find a middle ground that relaxes the rules without losing the sub to a tide of dross. The post that started this debate, a Hillary one had eight reports about memes and at least two modmail complaints about the same. Clearly some people feel strongly about image posts.

What constitutes a "shit post" in your opinion?

Conspiracy Keanu posts illustrate them best to me, true free speech would mean leaving them up too.

Yeah there's a lot of content I disagree with and consider a shit post. I feel your pain

Me too but it usually matters to someone and generates discussion so I just move on unless it's reported or blatantly breaking rules. I don't always agree with all of the rules myself but I have to uphold them if I'm going to mod here.

it's already lost.

There's nothing to really say. You're arguing against free expression. It's kind of hard to convince people (especially a skeptical community) to reject the spirit behind the 1st amendment.

Conversely you're arguing for a situation where detractors can weaken the subs impact by posting endless meme shitposts and drowning out the decent stuff without fear of reprisal or deletion whilst manipulating their posts to the frontpage to make the sub look shitty. Unless people spend a lot more time policing the new queue for us that's what is likely to be the outcome, we can't be on here 24/7 or tolerate endless whining about censorship because their irrelevant Kermit meme was deleted.

Conversely you're arguing for a situation where detractors can weaken the subs impact by posting endless meme shitposts and drowning out the decent stuff without fear of reprisal or deletion whilst manipulating their posts to the frontpage to make the sub look shitty.

No I am not.

If that happens, you don't need a new meme rule to remove trolling content. You're describing a scenario that will be obvious, especially if it's on the front page of the sub.

Free speech has it's drawbacks, but censorship is a slippery slope I do not wish to advocate in any circumstance.

Free speech has it's drawbacks, but censorship is a slippery slope I do not wish to advocate in any circumstance.

On that we agree, that was the whole point of having this conversation with everyone, to ask for input of the community about whether the current rules served us all well. Removing trolling content could be argued to be limiting free speech too though in the eyes of those with an anti-/r/conspiracy mindset.

4chan is just way better man. free speech rules.

Yeah 4chan serves its role.

The problem with "sudden clarity Clarence" memes and the like, is that every time something happens like the current election hysteria people tend to flood the sub with low effort meme generator posts and due to the mentality of some of us to upvoted everything Bernie Sanders regardless of how bad the post... We end up with an uninteresting front page that almost perfectly mirrors the mainstream political subs.

I would really like to keep conspiracy a little scruffy and maintain its unique flavor.

You don't seem to trust the people voting. That's why we rig the elections here in America.

No I perfectly trust the people voting to take over the entire front page with meme generator posts if we allowed them.

We already allow high quality posts on any subject, I don't see why we should lower bar. If meme gen is your thing there is always /r/adviceanimals.

How about you let the community decide? If this is what they vote for, why censor their choice? I don't think mods should push their beliefs into dictating the content here for their personal reasons. Your individual vision for how the front page should look is different than others...

"Uninteresting" is not reason to delete posts.

One or mod is possibly a shill

Unfortunately the community isn't the only ones voting here.

?

There are groups and individuals that engage in vote brigades on Reddit to manipulate the upvote/downvote algorithm. This can be used to influence which content becomes prominent and can be used to give content a harder time of being seen by the masses also.

Agreed

Political season is only a few months every four years. I think we can handle that. And resist the urge for even more top down management that has over taken Reddit these past several years.

Err on the side of openness.

i say we make an exception for this one - when you read the story behind it (first comment), it's pretty kick-ass https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/45md3j/the_march_of_tyranny_cartoon_by_ben_garrison_this/

Art has been part of revolutions and social movements for as far back as I can remember. I say we allow it when its appropriate and let the user base have the say on whether they are popular or pertinent to this sub or not.

It's difficult I think. On the one hand I think you should permit anything of substance, but on the other image posts typically can generate a lot of parade voting.

The top posts in this subreddit are invariably low information, "don't think too much" memes/image macros. It's embarrassing. The one about the two female news anchors being the most recent example of highly voted stupidity.

It makes this subreddit look bad, but if so many below want to cry "free speech!!!" then so be it. Enjoy the ridicule.

The sub is under attack, again. Watered down content worked well in the schools, it should help lobotomize this once healthy sub even more.

Fill this sub with as much brain dead dribble as can be. The serious posters will leave. Mission accomplished.

There must be a newer "Gentlemens Guide" to irrelevance in play.

Hear hear.

Did the user comment on his meme, going into more detail that might start a discussion?

Did the the user reply to anyone at all?

No? Then maybe they are not here for a discussion.

Memes and image macros should be allowed in this subreddit if they are related to conspiracy.

In my experience people, special interests groups and bots simply post whatever spam they can get away with regardless of rules or how the community thinks/feels. I think indiscriminately removing all meme and image macro posts will just create more work for the mod team.

Either way, good luck making the right decision!

Our standing approach has been to only remove image-macros if they have not yet reached the front page

stick to this, quality over quantity, we don't want quantity (which is usually where the floodgate leads once you open it)

Let the votes decide. Going down the censorship road will result in a quagmire.

If the voting mechanism can be manipulated then THAT is the problem that should be addressed. Ask the users for ideas on improving that mechanism.

You can convey a lot more information in one image meme than you can with three or four paragraphs of text. Sometimes they are highly effective means of propagating information and waking people up.

Just look at 4chan's /pol/ and the use of meme magic to get Donald Trump elected.

Memes are critical to disseminating information to large numbers of people, and for waking people up.

It would be a mistake to ban memes from the sub. Do what other subs do and just tag meme posts so more uppity snooty members can filter them out.

The submission itself may be low effort, but there is no doubt that those posts often spark discussion in the thread itself.

That should be good enough.

i think it's one of those balance things. a really good meme can be very effective, but i don't like crappy memes being used to forum-slide more important posts.

I saw that happen once before, fortunately it was soon deleted

No memes!

They're too short sighted and over opinionated and will lower the standard of content.

My suggestion

Memes alone should NOT be removed, but MOVED to a meme section; however, if the meme is used to support an above statement or article they should be encouraged.

As a web designer i can tell you an image helps increase the length of time user stays on a page which is good, but it shouldnt be the only thing in the post.

So, submit your thoughts or article with a meme :D

Memes aren't helpful and don't bring discussion.

Clearly the post wasn't a meme.

Ignore idiots reporting bullshit and continue to moderate in the arbitrary fashion we've all become accustom. Thanks.

At least our maymays spread truth and unite all people within our nation.

If it's the first, second, or third time it's posted, then

IT'S NOT A MEME

If it's not funny, then

IT'S NOT A MEME

Moderation is for removing spam. Meme's are a form of spam, because they are repeated. If it's not repeated,

IT'S NOT A MEME

It seems if you are removing stuff that is not repeated, it's your inputting your own point of view.

THAT'S NOT MODERATION, THAT'S CURATION.

Seems the people have spoken against memes. It's clear in the comments. The mods are letting this sub sink

I don't find image posts an inspiring medium in themselves as they usually simplify complex topics, yet, they do provoke conversations in the comments that further the premises raised. Also as they are often highly upvoted they bring exposure to the sub via r/all (a double edged sword) which does help to bring new users to the sub and furthers the awareness of abuses of power and other wrongdoing by those in power. A slightly reluctant yes to image posts with some context to them.

Edit: A definite no to full memes/macros as described by Flytape though.

What kind of logic is that? If they are removed how in hell are they ever going to reach the front page? No to censorship of every kind. Once begun there is no place to stop.

I think we should disallow them because they are ugly, unsourced and often misleading and/or openly biased. When they gain traction, which they unfortunately often do, it causes a "Never Cry Wolf" dynamic for the casual reader or browser of /r/all who only sees the top post of this sub.

I suppose that this kind of low-quality content gets upvoted so frequently simply because of the ease of viewing a tiny image on a mobile phone.

Delete the low effort image macros. If that one sparked conversation and votes then it wouldn't qualify as a low effort submission, would it? use your brain, and evaluate the submission on its own merits.

If you allow image macros then you'll also have to remove rule 12.

There's no difference between a self post with a shitty one liner and an image macro with that same line.

The difference is that the image macro often gets 1000+ upvotes, whereas a shitty one-liner does not.

Which is absolutely ridiculous, its the same content.

I'd probably agree that it's ridiculous, but my comment is just an observation of reddit voting behavior. People are more likely to click to see an image, especially with RES, and are more likely to upvote, even if it is low-quality. I also somewhat suspect these macros are upvoted by bots, but have nothing to back that up other than it's suspicious that posts get 10-20x what a normal, good post gets here.

I reckon it's because this sub is getting bigger.

It's happened to plenty of other subs. When they get big low effort content becomes more common.

When that happens, the mods have to step in and do something otherwise the sub will become an absolute shitfest - Like /r/atheism did before the mods banned memes.

Now if you visit /r/atheism you'll see actual articles and quality content.

I agree. It comes down to whether we want this sub to make it to /r/all with shitposts, or have good discussions here that don't make it to /r/all as often. I vote for the latter.

Hear hear.

Seconded. This is a solid and practical approach, even though I also have nothing against actual memes being a part of this sub either.

You don't seem to trust the people voting. That's why we rig the elections here in America.

Political season is only a few months every four years. I think we can handle that. And resist the urge for even more top down management that has over taken Reddit these past several years.

How about you let the community decide? If this is what they vote for, why censor their choice? I don't think mods should push their beliefs into dictating the content here for their personal reasons. Your individual vision for how the front page should look is different than others...

"Uninteresting" is not reason to delete posts.

but when they aren't factual it defeats the purpose of the sub reddit