Why does it suddenly jump to 320 people? How many people were actually in the club after the initial shooting took place and when he retreated into a bathroom with hostages? How many hostages were in the bathroom itself? Were they able to see the shooter or were they hiding in stalls and other areas where he wasn't in their FOV?

Please think more critically here.

Also, a program like Last Pass or anything else equally mundane (there are thousands of them on Google Store and App Store) can swap between accounts at the push of a button.

The guy had 3 hours to do what he wanted to in a night club full of dead bodies and screaming, dying men and women.

I kind of get a chuckle out of everyone who armchair quarterbacks the actions of a mass hysteria situation, I could make up a dozen situations where people attempt a tackle and stop for various reasons, and another dozen situations for why people wouldn't attempt a tackle in the first place.

I have experience in actual shootings, as in I've been in firefights and I've been shot at while unarmed 3 times while within the states. It is a very paralyzing fear and the last thing that pops into your head is "hey I should bum rush these guys, it's my only chance."

Coroner's report, from everything I've read, stated there were no signs of trampling on the dead bodies found. Which means that everyone went into flight mode but didn't have an exit strategy - because NORMAL PEOPLE don't check all exit points and have a plan of attack the second they walk into a night club looking to have a good time.

How do I know this? I'm a Combat Veteran with PTSD, we routinely discuss things like how we will position ourselves in a crowd with our backs to one, or preferably two walls, scope out all routes of exit in our heads and essentially create a plan for a worst case scenario in a few seconds then remain hyper vigilant for the rest of the time in public.

Normal people do not do that. Normal people do not expect to walk into a night club and then suddenly have someone shooting into a crowd watching people's heads get split open, women and friends screaming and begging for their lives, chunks being shot off bodies, people laying lifeless in a pool of blood, etc.

There was a Soldier with two Combat Tours under his belt that died, how did he die? No eye witness accounts yet on Captain Brown.

There was a Marine there who chose to find an exit, and even he states that approximately 50 people were frozen in fear at the exit when he screamed at them to open the door repeatedly before jumping through the crowd and opening it himself.

People react strangely to fear situations.

I'm getting really fucking tired of these crack pot theories where just because people didn't fight back it's suddenly a complete fabrication.

You intentionally skew the number to make it seem more inflated than it is, 320 people. How many people immediately fled the club the second shots were being fired? How many were within line of sight of the killer when he was doing it, and how many were just hearing the screams of people with the sounds of gunfire and deciding to retreat?

Even I wouldn't run towards the sounds of gun fire without a weapon, that's not intelligent thinking, that's not how soldiers are trained to react, that's not how I've been trained to react after a lot of combat experience.

Please, people, stop arm chair quarterbacking the situation like this. Most of you are painfully, obviously not qualified to comment on situations where civilians are being shot at - and those of us who are (I've been in firefights with both enemy combatants and civilians in the area, want to guess who cowers in fear and who fights back?) aren't commenting on it because for the most part it adds up.

It fucking sucks, and for all I know people did try to rush him at first and were gunned down - which would have put a complete halt to any moral boosting thought towards other individuals to continue a dog tackle (one eye witness account said he shot someone from arms length away.)

Tl;dr The guy had 3 hours with an unknown amount of ammunition and an unknown amount of people in a hostage situation, the majority of the time was spent holed up in a restroom where some people were cowering in bathroom stalls - this is reinforced by text messages from one of the victims with his mother before he was killed - approximately 40 minutes into the start of the shooting he was in the bathroom after two officers attempted to engage him and failed.

Just because there are more of you than him doesn't suddenly mean your instinct is going to be to run towards someone who is indiscriminately killing people in front of you, having been in firefights and having been shot at - the overwhelming urge is to run and hide.

If you haven't ever been shot at, if you haven't ever been in a firefight, if you've literally zero real life experience in the psychology behind fight and flight response outside of learning about it over a day or two in a college class for your General Education - PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE stop armchair quarterbacking the situation.

EDIT: I'm annotating, that due to the amount of backlash I got from this post - that I was very angry when I made the post. It's incredibly annoying as someone who has personal experience to draw from when I see posts like the OPs, and if this were the first time I'd likely have responded a lot less harshly - but it's not the first time, in fact a bulk of the Orlando posts are based around this topic.

I was in no way trying to insinuate that people are cowards, or that only military personnel are capable of heroic acts, or that having PTSD somehow makes me qualified to speak on the issue, or any of the other ridiculous conclusions people came to in their responses to me.

I was responding to a post that is largely based on personal opinion from drawing a narrative that was immediately - in my mind - flawed, with my own personal experience and opinion. Having been a Medic for the past 10 years, having been shot at when I wasn't armed, having been in firefights - I DO have a unique personal perspective to draw from when formulating my opinions based on why people do not fight back when confronted with an armed gunman, and as I've already stated, for every variable and scenario you can come up with that creates a conspiracy theory, I can come up with one that equally debunks it.

The conclusion is that there isn't enough evidence of what went on inside to say for sure one way or the other, I'll refrain from making this post longer than it already is by pointing out and reiterating why the timeline based on what evidence we do have, eye witness testimony, and other events that took place during the shooting add up to Marteen being a lone gunman and having plenty of time to post on Facebook and make phone calls and do whatever else he wished to do.

I DO think that police added to the total number of dead bodies in this incident. I DO NOT think that there were other shooters involved in this directly by their own free will. I DO see why people go into a fear state and flee/hide when they see people dying around them instead of charging at gunfire. I DO NOT know if anyone tried to stop Marteen and was unsuccessful.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

I find this sub entertaining, but it has one major flaw:

Every time something bad happens, people on this sub insist that it was a false flag attack. I have yet to see one terrorist attack, incident, etc. where people come here to say, "Oh no, that ____ bombing was legit; just a crazy religious fundamentalist with a small cock and a backpack bomb".

It's nice to see some critical thinking here. People should learn from your example.

I attribute it to some people not wanting to accept that bad things happen without reason in this world, there seems to be a sort of yearning for a minority of conspiracy theorists to try and make sense of senseless situations by creating this axis of evil to point a finger at.

Youre a piece of shit. Youre no fucking Vet. You didnt even graduate AIThttps://www.reddit.com/r/VeteransBenefits/comments/4i45fg/medical_discharge_in_ait_1_week_short_of_12_month/

Haha fuck you dirtbag. Deleting your post like the true coward you are.

He deleted his account now as well. lol.

http://imgur.com/vCHZFA2

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Please explain how he got into the club in the first place? Did he walk in with guns concealed? Did he shoot his way in? How did he conceal the guns if it is June in Orlando, FL? Some patrons were in tanktops or shirtless. I still haven't found a play-by-play on how he got into the nightclub. CCTV from street cameras or above the entrance to the club itself would help a lot. The media keeps going off on other angles except for the details of how the shooting even started. And, I find it questionable about there only being 1 gunman. I would be amazed if in reality, it was just Omar Mateen as the sole shooter. Amazed.

http://www.businessinsider.com/how-did-orlando-shooter-enter-pulse-club-2016-6

He won't have an answer for you. His "critical thinking" doesn't expand past his predetermined opinions. People like this guy stick to the story they want to believe and ignore all the other questions that are raised.

$$$$$

See below.

It's a Facebook link, but it serves it's purpose - note that if these magazines were loaded he'd need a pretty strong belt, but it proves the point.

I don't know anything about The Vibe's security measures. I don't know how the bouncers/doormen conducted themselves. I don't know what Mateen did as he entered the club.

It's simply to illustrate that it's a lot easier to conceal these weapons than people think, and again I'm wondering just what a bouncer would do if he did in fact find a long gun, glock, suicide vest (still undetermined, but a lot of sources say he was wearing one - or at least a fake one to make people believe it was one), and magazines on a frisk.

https://www.facebook.com/ChaosChytistOfficial/videos/10154471494669396/

The Vibe's security measures

Pulse

As a recent subscriber to this subreddit it's nice to see someone apply some logic and critical thinking rather than the rest of the nonsense I've seen.

To add to the discussion, the whole point about parking spaces is irrelevant. I've been to.plenty of nightclubs with no parking whatsoever. If you think that parking spaces correlate to capacity of a nightclub I question whether you've ever been to one before.

I'm getting really fucking tired of these crack pot theories where just because people didn't fight back it's suddenly a complete fabrication.

You're drawing a line straight from A-to-Z without considering ANY of the countless red flags attached to this incident. Take your own advice and apply some critical thinking to the entire scope of this shooting rather than rant about one little piece you passionately disagree with. That fact that you're "really fucking tired" already proves that you have a pre-existing opinion, thus swaying your "critical thinking". If you really were a critical thinker then you would understand how asinine it is to be so certain about all the things you just posted. To be so certain that nobody else would step up to save lives simply because "even you wouldn't run towards a shooter" is hilariously naive and is a massive disservice to our countless soldiers (and even civilians) who have given their lives to protect others. As a veteran you should know better and show more respect.

Please try to remain objective here.

Thanks for posting this. I'm glad I'm not the only one that isn't buying this guy's bullshit. The way he totes around his "PTSD" as if it gives him divine knowledge over what he implies are "sheeple" gives me the impression that he's never even been in the military.

Again, I'm admitting that I was fairly irritated and mad when I made my original response - so if it comes off as abrasive it is what it is. I wasn't trying to imply that military personnel are the only ones capable of heroic acts.

I was drawing off my own personal experience in life and applying it logically to respond to, what I see, as totally ridiculous statements.

My experiences as a Combat Veteran and as a Medic put me in a fairly unique position for having personal experience and insight into this kind of stuff.

If I come off as cocky, maybe it's because I'm fairly confident in my opinion and experience.

I'm not defending the OP but....This is the most hypocritical and ignorant post I have seen on this subreddit and that's really saying something. Everyone in my unit would be truly appalled at how out of touch you are. I can't think of a single person I met when I was stationed overseas that would hesitate to risk their life to protect others or save their own. You think that's a trait that's only present in people who have been in combat? Nobody in my unit would hesitate to give their life to protect others, nobody. They didn't learn that in basic training, they didn't have to be shot at, that's just the kind of people they are. It's human nature to fiercely protect what matters to you. Hell I have a buddy who nearly became a paraplegic wrecking his motorcycle trying to impress some girl that wasn't even interested in him. Yet you, with all your wisdom and critical thinking, are so confidant that only us soldiers are even remotely capable of such things. Well not you of course because you'll be running the other way apparently.

There very fact that you so passionately disagree with this but troll a conspiracy sub shows that you just come here to mouth off your pre-existing opinion and are unwilling to look at any of the questions raised by this shooting and do some actual critical thinking.

Unbelievable.

TL;DR You have to be a special kind of scum to go parading your supposed PTSD around the internet to drum up support for your own crack-pot, unwavering, groundless opinions. I've never known a single PTSD sufferer to use their awful struggle as a talking point in a dick-measuring contest to prove how much they know. Absolutely disgusting.

I was not touting my PTSD as "how much I know" I was using it to prove the point that MOST people do not immediately look for all points of exit and remain hyper aware of their surroundings.

A Marine saved at least 50 lives in the shooting.

Captain Brown may have died trying to stop him or may have been shot dead before he knew what was going on.

You should know damn well that being in a theater of combat changes how a person thinks and behaves, and that there is a huge difference between being in a night club where we have zero evidence as to what went on and how many people were actually in the club within distance of the shooter.

My entire point should have been pretty clear, had he targeted a bar frequented by military personnel this might have played out differently.

He targeted a gay night club where video prior to the shooting shows a rave style environment with bartenders running around half naked and people drunk and high dancing around.

I do not know why it's so hard for people to understand the concept of mass fear mentality and how it changes the actions of other people.

Literally every mass shooting we have footage of shows this type of behavior. People either panic and trample each other or hide and get killed if they're found.

The only "mass shootings" I know of where a gun man was stopped involve people identifying and neutralizing the threat before the shooting could start.

I don't think soldiers are the only ones capable of out of the ordinary behavior and I never said anything even remotely of the sort. Don't question my integrity based on bullshit interpretation just because you didn't like how I chose to phrase my response.

I do think that training plays a huge role in how someone responds to a situation, and as far as I know only two people who were in that shooting had any. Not including the killer. One died. One saved 50 some odd people.

If anyone's done ecstasy or any other similar hard drug they should understand how fucking terrifying any traumatic event while rolling would be, and also how high percent of people at raves are on ecstasy. Like I'm pretty stoic and I've seen someone just get an angry looking face while I'm rolling and that's enough to make me cower away. MDMA is empathogenic and literally makes everything feel more intense.

I'm at a computer now, so I'm responding to every message on this thread again.

Firstly, I was angry when I made this original response - because I've seen countless people making the same determination with what I believe is very junk critical thinking towards the situation - so if I came off as abrasive or arrogant, well there you have it, I was mad.

Secondly, I wasn't trying to attribute my PTSD, or insinuate that soldiers/military personnel are the only people in the world capable of doing extraordinary things in uncommon situations - I was drawing from my own personal experience in most aspects of my response to show people why I personally believe the narrative that "someone didn't fight back so it must not be real, or was a false flag" is ignorant.

It wasn't a dick-measuring contest, nor was my commentary on having been in firefights and being shot at while unarmed stateside - it was to illustrate that from my own personal experiences I have come to the conclusion that fear plays a huge role in why people choose flight over fight.

I'm not "trolling" a conspiracy sub. I've been an active member of these forums for years now, I just rarely post - this is personal for me because, as I've stated before, I knew Captain Brown.

So go re-read what I posted, look at the actual talking points that make sense versus the opinion I threw in, and re-assess my commentary.

There are plenty of mass shooting events with footage where people chose not to fight back, in fact the majority are that way. People either panic and trample each other or go for hiding and are killed as they're discovered.

The majority of mass shooting events that are prevented due to action never became mass shooting events because the killer was identified before they could start shooting and neutralized.

Lastly, I have no idea what happened inside that club, none of us do - but I know that there weren't 320 people in there to be fighting off a gunman as the original post claims. Plenty of people fled immediately at the sound of gunfire, a Marine's testimony states 50 people were frozen in fear next to a door - to the point of ignoring him asking them to open it so they could get out several times before he did it himself. I have no idea how far into the timeline this took place.

What we do know, from text messages between a son and his mother, is that the shooter spent around 40 minutes in the main area of the club before going into the bathrooms, and that two officers, one an off duty cop and another a SWAT Officer if I remember correctly attempted to engage the killer but were unsuccessful.

This left him with a good 2 hours and 20 minutes to do as he saw fit in the restrooms he locked himself off in, assuming that the narrative of the text message coincides with the timeline of when the two officers were unsuccessful in engaging him.

You have respectable accountability

What a piece of shit. And then he deletes his stuff like a pansy ass? They just don't make them like they used to, I guess. Apparently he wasn't Army "strong." Ha. Ha.

some people were cowering in bathroom stalls - this is reinforced by text messages

The mental gymnastics people like you have to do to swallow the fakery going on around you. Hilarious. THE TEXT MESSAGES PROOVED IT!!!111!

This.

His entire post hangs by the tiniest of threads. A long-winded rant that proves nothing except his own hypocrisy for not applying any "critical thinking" or logic at all.

Actually it's a logical explanation of events using sound logic. All you have to offer in return is NUH UH and showing off how mindboggling ignorant you are.

Do yourself a favor and look up "straw man argument". Keep grasping at straws while all this goes over your head.

The entire post I replied to is a strawman based on opinion and conjecture. I don't know how else you expect someone to respond to an argument based solely around "this could not have happened" outside of putting my own personal experience and thoughts into why I think people saying people would have dog tackled a shooter is total nonsense rooted in misunderstanding of a fight or flight response and zero real life experience with combat or being shot at while unarmed.

The amount of butt hurt I got in response to my comment is amazing.

what critical thinking are you applying here that can't be countered with something rational and logical?

Please offer a rebutal to my comments instead of just throwing out some butt hurt.

My comments were rooted in reality from my own experience of both being shot at while unarmed and being in real firefights as well as experience drawn from over 10 years working as a Medic.

How is a text message between a mother and son where he asked her to call the cops and said they were hiding in the bathroom. Followed by stating the shooter is coming and he's gonna die, that spanned about 40 minutes "mental gymnastics"?

Coroner's report, from everything I've read, stated there were no signs of trampling on the dead bodies found.

Got a source for this? I haven't seen anything mentioned about this or a publicly released coroner's report anywhere.

Wasn't an official report:

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/15/health/orlando-medical-examiner/

There's eye witness testimony that Marteen was giving orders to people in the night club, too - so there's a chance he told people to lie on the floor. He took everyone's cell phones, asked if there were any blacks in the crowd and said 'I have no problem with blacks'. Along with some other odd behavior.

Could very well be that he gained control of the situation through compliance letting people believe it was a hostage situation and then started killing. I don't know, there isn't enough evidence to say one way or the other.

r/threadkillers

Saved for reference. Something you should really add to this, is that these gay clubs have very heavy drug usage going on. More drug usage than a rave, and they use GHB of all things.

Neither mephedrone nor GHB—two of the most popular substances on the gay clubbing scene—have become particularly fashionable among mainstream clubbers,

https://www.vice.com/read/gay-clubbers-early-drug-adopters-720

I've made note of this before in other responses to the "why didn't people fight back, it doesn't add up" narrative.

If people sift through my personal opinion and just look at the critical analysis/talking points that are responding directly to the original post I think there are some decent points brought up.

There weren't 320 people in the night club to fight the guy off, I have no idea how many fled, but we can assume it was a good amount.

There are tons of mass shootings where the idea of being stuck in a fear state sticks, Columbine is a good example, as was the Paris attack - people run, people hide, if they're found they're killed.

The Coroner has stated that none of the dead bodies showed signs of trampling, which means they just laid down - for whatever reason. Some eye witness testimony says that Marteen gave orders, maybe he ordered people to the ground before he started killing them. I don't know.

I agree with you. I would trust schoolchildren to fight back more, cause there is good lighting, they are well rested, and they aren't pumped up on drugs.

Personally I won't waste any effort convincing people the massacre occurred, I just came here to scope out what people are saying.

For me it's personal because I knew one of the victims, and my original response to this post came with me having my morning coffee and not being in the best of moods.

It's very insulting to a person, who is dealing with loss, to see such blatant disregard for what I see as totally logical and simplistic - clear cut - thought.

I interpreted the original post as intentionally trying to skew the reality of the situation to provide a false narrative then building on that. 320 people, two hands on a cell phone, etc. etc. etc.

To me, it felt like the OP didn't even do any real research into the timeline and eye witness testimony before making the post, and as I've already said, if it were the first time someone made this post I'd of addressed it a little more calmly, but these seem to be the majority posts about Orlando now in this sub reddit, and frankly it hurts.

It would be nice if we had more video and pictures of the event. Yeah they are shocking, but it might put some conspiracies to rest, and show people just how fucked up it was. So many people hear 100 shot and just roll their eyes.

When some muslims blew up a train in brussels we only got 5 or 6 pictures out of it. Fucking media and government covering for the terrorists.

You have every right to be angry.

Just FYI, there's plenty of ghb and other drugs at raves, you just can't find them ;)

They want access and history for 5 Facebook accounts. I don't believe they all belong to one guy though. More likely they belong to the various people that were recruited by the three letter agency(s) for this plot, or they are accounts of people who they deem loose ends / potential leaks / liabilities. It's the same thing as his Wife. They're going after every potential leak, plugging them up so nobody can expose this sham any further.

They've asked Mark Zuckerberg for help. Remind you of FBI vs Apple recently? You want to know why they needed access to that iPhone in San Bernardino? To make sure he didn't inform someone when the plot went south. They also had to make sure a copy of that (his messages and/or contacts which may expose their own informants) didn't end up in Apple's iCloud where someone could fish it out like a curious Apple iCloud engineer, or even Tim Cook himself. FBI had to make absolutely sure this wouldn't happen, hence the court battle. I highly doubt the FBI vs Apple thing was a publicity stunt or attack on encryption like so many people thought.

We're to believe Omar Mateen was a modern day, high tech, jihadi Rambo.

The whole narrative was ridiculous to begin with. Only brainwashed morons without critical thinking skills still believe everything the media feeds us on a daily basis.

I just saw that blob on the view giving her opinion

THAT IS 1 MAN WHO KILLED 50 PEOPLE WITH THAT GUN

These are the same people you're going to be saving when the military rolls in and declares your freedoms null, they're so stupid it hurts, these guys went in with explosives and multiple shooters, they can't even look up actual facts.

As a great man once said,

In the future these people will simply be squashed like cockroaches for criticizing the government. Nobody is going to pay them nothing for their beautiful and noble ideas of equality

This whole story makes no sense at all.

the story is a MSM whitewash of a false flag attack

The propaganda is strong in this article. So much unsourced info that's contradicted elsewhere, and then they bring in Brennan's money quote for the close:

"On Thursday, the Central Intelligence Agency director, John O. Brennan, gave a grim assessment of the prospects for more attacks. Though the Islamic State has been pushed back on battlefields in the Middle East, he said in testimony before the Senate Intelligence Committee, “our efforts have not reduced the group’s terrorism capabilities and global reach.”

...without mentioning that Brennan, in that same testimony, claimed they could find no links between Mateen and Islamic State.

As I understand it the two times he was under investigation by the FBI were for visiting recruiting style websites for ISIS/ISIL/Daesh (I prefer to call them Daesh because it's a slight/insult towards the group from the Kurds, but not everyone understands the term.)

The guys who run recruiting processes through social media aren't stupid, Daesh in itself has some very intelligent people who are very good at Psy Ops - or whatever else you'd like to call it - when it comes to recruiting disenfranchised youth from Western countries.

Part of this is because after US forces left Iraq and Afghanistan, there was a sort of "perfect storm" of events that unfolded.

1. Al Qaeda in Iraq (AQI) militants suddenly had a lot more open and free reign to start assassination of Iraqi Police Forces - who were left with a lot of weapons of war to defend their country - but instead chose to flee.

2. TERPs, media journalists who had worked with American journalists, and other assets who had been trained by US forces were left behind. I'm not talking Jihadi Special Forces, I'm talking more towards guys who gained a lot of experience in media manipulation due to interaction with US Forces on a day to day basis for years.

3. The seizure of the weapons of war, combined with knowledge from TERPs who either had the choice of having themselves and their families killed, along with journalists, etc. lead to a fringe group that originated in Camp Bucca (a prison camp for Al Qaeda/Taliban operatives during the US occupation of Iraq) to basically take over some of the largest key points in Iraq, specifically Mosul, which is also a key point in Iraq from a military stand point because it creates a direct block for food supplies to the Yazidi and Kurds North, East, and West of the city.

Essentially what you had was a large group of guys who spent a lot of time in Camp Bucca together and felt Al Qaeda wasn't being adamant enough in their adherence to establishing a Caliphate - who then gained access to weapons of war, took over cities that had millions of dollars in them, and then began to expand outward for the seizure of oil and gasoline to continue funding their campaign.

Add people who were trained either directly or indirectly from watching years of the "hearts and minds" type of war we were using in the area - and suddenly having assets from the largest News sources in Northern Iraq to start creating propaganda and you've got a pretty clear and cut case of how a group of 10,000 - 30,000 militants can take over entire regions.

The level of sophistication in Daesh's own propoganda can be seen in things like their claim to be executing Christian's on the beach in Libya was actually done in front of a green screen. They duplicated the amount of victims to make it seem like there were more walking in the line, and they intentionally increased the size of the executioners to give a sort of illusion of power towards Daesh and it's militants by making them appear to tower over the people they oppose.

This isn't new, hostages who have been rescued by allied forces have stated they would be taken into green screen rooms where they would perform mock executions as a director and producer dictated camera angles before being returned to their holding areas. In short, they're the first terrorist organization to really start using media propaganda to it's full potential, and it's scary as all hell.

The CIA has also started to warn of knowledge of Daesh sleeper cells in the United States being a much more credible threat than before.

Those of us with military connections already knew a lot of this. It kind of blows my mind and frustrates me to no end as a Veteran of OEF to see the indifference of Western cultures towards how real of a threat this is.

You've also got the issue of Obama insisting that all weapons and ammunition to support local war efforts against Daesh go through Turkey first - I know a lot of Kurdish people from Iraq and Syria, and the bottom line is Turkey is pro-ISIS and is committing systematic genocide against the Kurds specifically.

So now you have a very convenient way for our Administration to say they're helping the good guys, and washing their hands of these weapons getting sent directly to the bad guys.

That said, the assessment is true in terms of Daesh not gaining any headway in Iraq and Syria in recent time. Mosul has been kind of a stand still with a neutral territory about 20 KM out of the southern entrance to the city where Dwekh Nawsha and Peshmerga forces patrol. (I have friends who served as Marines and Infantrymen in the Army who have gone to fight with the Dwekh Nawsha to try and combat Daesh, there's a lot more shit going on over there than the media ever reports on. One of them is on his second year out there.)

That long rant aside, my information on why Mateen was being investigated by the FBI could be off - but I've yet to see anyone offer a counter argument towards it and the sources I got my information from are people I trust who often have inside information on shit like this because of the circles they're a part of in the military. Word travels fast in smaller circles of the Army because they have a direct interest in killing these fucks until there are no more on the planet earth.

Mateen claiming allegiance to ISIS in the middle of the killing spree makes enough sense to me, it's often what terrorists do to affiliate and help strengthen the agenda of the groups they support. It's not something new, is what I'm getting at.

There are a lot of inconsistency's happening with the actual investigation of the shooting, though, specifically with the DA and State of Florida being denied access to investigation materials from the shooting and the 911 tapes - which are a matter of public record - to start conducting their own investigations.

So at the end of the day, who really knows?

He fits the profile of a CI/patsy (also, I believe there's a case out there with his previous name/father's name) - it's entirely possible, and I believe probable, that he was an informant or patsy a la Tsarnaev gone off-the-reservation (or "plot" not foiled in time) and never directly really dealt with any "true Daesh." This also explains the gun shop alerting the FBI early on to no response. I tend to believe Brennan's statement - that there are no direct ties between this guy and Daesh - although Mateen may have thought at some point he was dealing with them.

Northrop Grumman had an office 17 miles away. Same in virginia tech, sandy hook, aurora, boston.

It's Orlando, plenty of defense contractors within a respectable distance, so I don't know that's a real smoking gun.

It should be noted, however, that Mateen was a hired hand for Wackenhut/G4S. Also - he also did security work during the BP oil spill (someone posted the docu he was in, "The Big Fix" here a bit earlier).

It's no smoking gun but I don't think it should just be dismissed as a coincidence since it was nearby to a lot of other mass shootings.

They have microwave v2k tech and they have an incentive to use it.

Defense contractors develop technology for government agencies and the military to use. They don't typically deploy it uncontrolled on their own (though I could be convinced they tested stingrays all over). Worth a read between the lines: https://theintercept.com/2016/06/12/before-nightclub-shooting-fbi-pursued-questionable-florida-terror-suspects/

So then, which contractors make the domestic EM weapons?

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/navy-secret-war-games-washington-state/

It's happening. Have you checked out unitedagainstmindcontrol website?

McDonalds has had multiple locations pretty close to terrorist attacks....maybe they're related too? And Starbucks?

So maybe daddy didn't want to play ball, and Jr got v2k'd to keep pop on the reservation. Interesting that G4S got the gitmo contract, as world news had posted earlier today.

I think you're full of shit. You're no vet.

Here's my Service Connected VA ID with tattoo's on my fingers to back up it's me:

Retired from Elgin?

I have no idea what Elgin is, but it's cute that rather than saying "oh, thanks for providing me proof." You opted to continue with whatever Elgin is.

You can trace this username and my Reddit posts back almost 2 decades over the internet. Most of what I do involves playing video games and posting in knife collector forums. The only reason I've been so vocal in this specific portion of posts in the /r/conspiracy forum - as I've already said - is because I personally knew one of the victims.

I've been a long time lurker and sparse poster in these forums for quite some time.

If that doesn't sit right with you, it's probably because you're a bit overly paranoid. If me proving that I'm a Service Connected Disabled Veteran leads you to make more attempts at discrediting me, for whatever reason, then it's probably because you don't much care for what I have to say, and have very little rebuttal in terms of intelligent response to try and open a dialogue to help me better understand your own thoughts on the attack.

Mass shootings, or even shooting incidents such as the reporter on the news, always seem to draw out the crazies in this sub reddit in droves.

If it was a false flag, which is something I haven't ruled out - in fact there is plenty of suspicious shit around the scenario that make me believe it is - it sure as shit is doing it's job of distracting people from all the other crazy shit that's happened over the last week.

What I take offense to, is people calling it a hoax. It wasn't, these people are dead. Their friends and family members, including myself, are hurt by it - and when you insinuate it's a hoax with what I perceive as totally ridiculous speculation I'm going to come back and respond in kind with why it's so ridiculous.

This time I happened to be in a pretty bad mood because of how many inconsistencies in critical thinking there were in the original post, and went a little too personal, it is what it is. I stand by my comments.

Elgin is the air force base with the highest traffic for reddit in the US. I more just said that as a joke to myself.

I'm just flinging shit to see what sticks. Appreciate your responses.

I don't know what the fuck happened but I see lots of fishy non regulars coming in to share their experience and give their opinions on why it has to be a certain way. I'm leaning towards remote mind control patsy with crisis actors and maybe a few actual deaths. There's a civil war brewing over in the states and this is all just manufacturing consent as i see it.

Northrop Grumman, Raytheon, G4S all stand to benefit with an uptick in domestic terrorism as does their man trump (who is a jesuit mafioso)

I'm assuming you mean Eglin and your phone is giving out typos.

I think the body count is real.

I don't think there were any crisis actors involved.

I do think there is plenty of evidence to point towards it being a false flag, and that it did it's job, as a lot of shit happened over the last week politically that went completely ignored due to the shooting.

Personally I think Marteen was mentally ill, and that his father could very well have influenced that pretty heavily since he was a CIA asset. His father is probably how he got connections with all of the other shit people are alarmed by as well.

Friends say he was clear cut gay, or at least bi sexual (but probably gay.)

There's an interesting documentary by VICE here, that people should watch, to sort of get an insight into how ass backwards the culture in Afghanistan is. Homophobia is rampant, Jihadists/Extremists/whateverthefuckists place being gay as a killable offense above being a Westerner or being a Christian.

Yet pedophilia is rampant, and they dress up with flowers in their hair and in make up on Thursdays then go around having gay sex and making out with each other like it's no big deal.

It's all very odd, and it points towards how cultural acceptance of sexual orientation can play a huge role in a person's mental well being.

I don't care about conspiracy theory shit enough to look into mind control and how real or unreal it is. I do know Cultural Marxism in this country is very real as I've seen a huge shift in how accepting millenials are of the idea that the Government is there to be a giant piggy bank for them, and how accepting they've become of more oppressive bullshit instead of resistant to it.

100 years from now this country will be very different from what it is as we know it. I hope I'm not alive to see it change into a police state, or wherever it's headed. The Government has generations to put their plans into action, we have but one short lifetime on this earth to do what we can. That's the major issue at play. 80 year old men still have seats in top political positions and they shape the way this country grows - it seems like Millenials were intentionally raised for more compliance knowing that they would be the next to take office in those seats.

I'm ranting.

Here's the documentary.

https://youtu.be/Ja5Q75hf6QI

What evidence do you have that the body count is real? I won't accept msm sources.

Why did the same tearless idiots get the camera on all the networks? Dressed in American flag apparel and dropping in gun control talking points. One lady supposedly lost her son in the massacre yet with no tears drops the same "ban semi automatic weapons" talking point into her camera time.

Were you browsing /r/conspiracy/controversial during the 48hrs after the event. There was shitloads of dodgy acting, totally unbelievable procedures being performed. They were all kept off the front page though with heavy downvoting and shilling.

Sorry, but I don't trust Murdoch owned VICE for my information.

Check out the website unitedagainstmindcontrol for some pretty mind blowing info on where that's at. Consider NG was 17 miles away from orlando, 7 miles away from aurora, 15 from virginia tech, 30 from sandy hook, and boston.

Agree on cultural marxism, but i think it's just a byproduct of creating whiny pussies who cry for censorship. Fascism creeps through PC.

That VICE documentary is accurate to what was going on in Afghanistan prior to us pulling out of the region, it doesn't really have an agenda. I don't normally recommend VICE stuff, but this one is to the point and pretty candid.

There are military bases, federal buildings, etc. all over the country, I don't buy into the "because X was close to X it points towards conspiracy."

People react oddly when they're in the middle of a mental break, I've seen people run the gambit of hysterical crying to blank expressionless soul crushing depression to flat out mania.

When I did my PTSD exit interview at the VA I actually laughed a lot about stuff that I cry about at home.

The media also does a lot of prep work with people before an interview, they go over the questions before hand, they coach the people they're interviewing to better fit their own agenda and narrative, they're very good at mentally manipulating average citizens, and even moreso when someone is in the middle of extreme shock or a mental break.

If you want to link me to case by case stuff I can give you my opinion on it, but quite frankly there are already a lot of people who are against guns around the country - and if they found out their kid was just killed by the "evil AR-15 assault rifle" then coached through interview questions before actually going live, or even having the idea put into their head "how do you feel about guns? Don't you think you should make a statement about it to get justice for your baby boy?" it's not really all that far of a reach to see it brought up as a talking point.

The media gives two shits about the people who died. Maybe Anderson Cooper took it a little bit to heart because he himself is gay, but the overall agenda is just to continue pushing what the current administration's agenda is - which right now is gun control.

If Trump gets elected you'll see a huge shift again towards whatever his policies are. The same thing happened with the shift from Bush Jr. to Obama.

On a side note, while I'm not pointing a finger directly at you, I see a lot of people who are interested in how the political agenda at the time is manipulated by the media due to the administration seem to be so young that they don't remember a pre-Obama administration in terms of how the media was driven.

I'm old enough to remember all the way back to Bush Sr., and one of the reasons you see apathy from a lot of older American's towards the overall thing is because it's just generally accepted that the media is no longer about journalistic integrity.

For a lot of younger people it's still some shocking revelation that the media isn't reporting on the news, but instead is reporting on what the administration is saying is the news.

Obama has been very polarizing as a President compared to Bush Sr., Clinton, and Bush Jr. though - to the point of him being a borderline troll who is laughing at the American public while he pulls strings.

I think that today's youth will start to realize the truth of it all when we have a shift in political party and see how the media shifts along with it. It always happens, it will continue to happen.

N.G. and UnitedagainstMK. This is really our huckleberry. The MIC has us all by the neurons.

Sure do.

Still haven't read that stuff you sent me but I'm sure it's involved here.

Yeah me too. The Mk programs just showed this shit works. Well at that.

Oh, you probably meant Eglin.

Yeah, clearly my VA ID says I was Army, as I've already stated. Sorry to burst your bubble on that one. The only reason I'm responding so heavily to this issue is because I personally knew a victim and I'm tired of the utter stupidity thrown around by people trying to create scenarios that make no sense.

I agree that there are a lot of inconsistency's with the shooting itself, but saying 320 people were in the club to fight back, that it takes two hands to use a cell phone, etc. is asinine.

I wish people would actually take a look at the timeline and read over some eye witness testimony before trying to create scenarios that make little to no sense.

Normally, people get fired when their efforts are not good enough. But here we have an agency whose "efforts" are time and time again, not good enough. What a farce.

It either points towards there being way too high of a case load for the FBI to consistently follow all leads, or that there was a complete lack of evidence to charge Mateen with any wrong doing after the investigations.

Or if you want to follow the third narrative, that they were still investigating him with an informant to try and dig up bigger fish.

In light of this information, instead of a rallying cry for gun control it should be the opposite. Probably easy to take out a hostage-taker while he's posting dank memes.

But were there really 320 people in there? There are only nine parking spaces at the Pulse.

You had me up until this line. Not sure if you have, but I've been to a club or two and this is usually the case. Especially in busier city areas, people will park a few blocks away and walk, or use a cab.

From my experience, newbies who read your post will reach that line and realize the same thing I did, and say, "Hey, that's not suspicious!" Also, this is a common tactic for controlled opposition to use to discredit themselves. I'd strongly advise removing that bit.

I heard someone being interviewed on the news mention Pulse had valet parking. Quick check of their Yelp page confirms this - valet and street parking.

Great post. I agree, something is fishy. I hate that /r/conspiracy is overrun with assholes who just want to tear these types of discussions down rather than explore them. Same thing happened on my post. Someone who claims to be an expert comes in and calls you a liar based on irrelevant segways, typical forums shill crap.

"It takes one hand to hold a phone and another to type." Since when, so many people type using their thumb on the phone.

Even better, he wanted to take even more time typing everything out with one thumb... While he was trying to aim and shoot at people at the same time.

By the time he was typing everyone around him was dead or wounded he had 3 hours to type as many messages as he wanted to and still cover any threat with a handgun.

He had 3 hours.

My 17 year old niece does all of that (minus the killing) during her 15 minute courtesy talk with grandma...while holding a can of red bull.

What planet do you live on where you can draw this parallel???

The one the rest of us live in, with experience from outside of our houses.

My god there are no words for the level of inconsiderate stupidity in this post.

Truly shameful.

Why didn't someone either bean him from behind with a Dewars bottle or grab his guns?

If someone ever pulls out a gun and starts murdering everyone around you, please go find the nearest glass bottle and rectify the situation.

Think critically. "You mean some guy had an AR-15 and handguns and no one had the balls or brains to just go up to him and make him stop? FALSE FLAG!|

You act like something like that has never happened. It has happened in Washington twice at school shootings. Both times a random person subdued the gunman. Neither time was there anywhere near 300 people there.

You're conflating two things. I didn't say it never happened, I just expressed my opinion that it isn't likely to happen.

Just because it happened twice in Washington, or even 100 times in the last year, doesn't mean that it had to happen here.

This is the problem with conspiracy theories... I say that it's reasonable that drunk, unarmed party-goers didn't rush a man with a gun. All you can say is, "but it's happened before!".

Yes, I'm sure it has, that doesn't mean that every time it doesn't happen we're dealing with some false flag attack.

I never said it had anything to do with a false flag attack. I just mentioned two times in my area where there were less people and someone attacked the gunman.

Was it dark or light? And were police coming up behind with more shots? And who was sober vs. not sober? I think any or all of those variables could, unfortunately, have a lot to do with it.

They're a shill. Tag teaming with naamtar and tokomobeav.

Plus, gay men are usually above average fitness. Way stronger than kids

Look up the bystander response and then think critically. In a group of 15, the res a greater likelihood of someone doing something to stop the attack than in a crowd of 300. When theres a small attack its easier to think "oh shit, someone's gotta do someone, guess it may as well be me" whereas in a larger crowd its easier to put that responsibility on one of the hundreds of other people and just let flight take over

You would have to be mind numbingly stupid to think that applies to every situation. We have zero concrete evidence of what actually happened in there yet people are so confident they have it all figured out.

I don't think it applies to every situation. And no, we don't know what happened. So I think the best bet is to fall back on established psychological and sociological principles and apply them to the unknown scenario.

Think critically.... Please just stop with that.

he is thinking critically. look up fight video after fight video and see how many people come in and stop a fight. for the most part everyone just stands there and watches while the person pummels someones face. those are just punches being thrown. can you really say you'd step in and try to tackle someone who is actively shooting everyone around you?

No I cant say that I would for sure. First off most people don't break up fights because they want to watch the fight. Secondly, the odds that a club of 300 people 1 person is more likely to try and stop an active shooter is a lot higher than both of the situations where there were far less people there and someone actually did stop the active shooter.

possibly. but even at the ucla event it didn't seem like that many people were trying to stop that guy even though the school building probably had 10x as many nightclub goers.

Cool. Twice.

Twice at potential mass shootings within a couple years about 30 miles apart.

....so?

You gotta reload at some point. Or perhaps ag least 15 points if he shot as many rounds as they say.

Apparently he was almost apprehended going in. So he started shooting as he went in the door. Then somehow ~250 people filed into the bathrooms. That or they ran past him?

It does sound odd. Then again, crazy person shooting up a large nightclub is probably always going to have some strange sounding aspects to it. Maybe a whole bunch of people did run right past him out the front door but aren't exactly proud of that and aren't talking about it. Maybe hr just did the initial burst of shots that, in a densely packed club, killed a bunch of people. Then the rest of the shots were kinda random after most everyone had run out one of the doors or into a bathroom.

It all does sound weird but not so weird that it looks fake.

Our police chief in DC actually recommended that a group of people attack the shooter in an active shooter situation

He was a gay ISIS supersoldier G4S security professional. Naturally he had those powers.

The was a 3 hour period between the time the attack started, to when the police breached.

He could've shot up all he could in the first 30 mins, sat down for a bit and doodled on his phone.

Why didn't someone either bean him from behind with a Dewars bottle or grab his guns?

Why didn't someone Judo Chop him the moment he started shooting? I imagine people are more concerned with escaping than they are with fighting back.

But were there really 320 people in there? There are only nine parking spaces at the Pulse.

Oh well then obviously that means there could only be a maximum of 45 people there including staff.

Why didn't someone either bean him from behind with a Dewars bottle or grab his guns?

the higher probability is that for most people, when fight or flight kicks in, they choose flight (self-preservation).

This. The delusional hero complex here is astounding.

What's astounding is that you never considered the fact that people being held captive during a slaughter have no convenient "flight" option. Literally their only options were die or do something about it.

You'd have to be delusional to not understand that.

You're the delusional one here. Just because someones flight reflexes are not "convenient" does not mean that they will kick into "fight" mode. Get over yourself.

LOL dude Im willing to with you on most of your post but the part about 9 parking spaces, thats kinda irrelevant. You ever been to a night club in a city? A lot of em don't even have parking spaces, except in a back alley for employees.

To the downvoters, I'm merely trying to help OP. People are quick to tear down someones whole argument if only 1 of their facts is wrong. To me, that weak link is the argument about the parking spaces because to me, that's not out of the ordinary, and it wouldn't be out of the ordinary to anyone who frequently goes to nightclubs. So if you're trying to make the case that Orlando was a conspiracy, I'd leave out the part about the parking spaces. So downvote me, but you're only proving your ignorance tbh

You're right, I don't know why you're being downvoted for it. Those nine spaces are probably for employees, no one parks at a club in a metro area.

Yeah, but I get that the type of people who visit here arent exactly outgoing individuals

That's not necessarily true. People throw around a lot of assumptions about who's here and you know what they say about assumptions.

Yes, and I also know that they say conspiracy theorists are retards. Excuse me for not following stupid quotes. I don't even go to clubs often, and I'm the only one I saw bring up the parking spaces. If someone else here really knew nightclubs they might've spoken up

he made 16 phone calls ...

So you're telling me that Dr. Matt Lube took care of Angel Colon? Lmao

Angel Colon stopped a shotgun blast with his hand....yet his hand is perfectly fine....both of them. LMAO

Angel Colon also got broken bones, 3 gunshots to his hip and legs, one to his hand, glass in hiis back and face....yet shows no sign of pain or suffering in two days while giving a detailed interview. HAHAHA Yah, ok!

Just going to link this here https://theintercept.com/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/

can this contribute to the multiple shooter hypothesis?

http://www.commondreams.org/news/2016/06/17/caving-post-orlando-fear-house-betrays-civil-liberties Every action has a reaction.

You want Omar as your Isis / shotgun wedding planner.

Here's my theory...no evidence...it just makes sense to me. There are two options.

1) This was perpetrated by an Isis sympathizer. The reason they attacked a gay club is that the LGBTQ community is typically more liberal and would be more likely to vote for someone like Hilary Clinton or Gary Johnson. Since the shooter was a Muslim, ISIS could think that this would lead the LGBTQ community to adopt anti-muslim sentiment. Ultimately this would lead them to vote for a president who has a more anti-muslim stance. Moreover, based on the current political/social climate in the states, this could lead to the United States ripping itself apart from the inside out, at which point, they wouldn't have to do anything else.

2) This attack was initiated by Trump for the same reason.

As I stated these ideas are pure speculation and there's nothing to back them up. Just something that I think made sense.

His social media antics & phone calls were done during a standoff after he killed a lot of people and others fled/hid. During the standoff, police attempted to negotiate with him instead of subdue him.

I thought standard procedure for an active shooter nowadays is to breach immediately.

It normally is, but he had called 911 stating that he had an ally wearing a suicide vest pretending to be dead in the bodies, as well as some other claims about explosives being planted around the building.

None of that turned out to be true, but it's a good way to stave off SWAT from an immediate entry.

source?

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2016/06/13/orlando-shooting-victim-recalls-killers-behavior-statements-during-nightclub-massacre/

"The witness said he recalled hearing Mateen mention a female who was playing dead and allegedly had a “bombing vest” like the one he reportedly wore during the attack. The other two people Mateen allegedly mentioned were two snipers, whom he said were waiting for police to arrive so they could shoot."

Why is this account deleted? Anyway, that article says a witness said that after the fact. Doesn't mention anything about the shooter telling police the same thing.

Dang he's talented, that's how you can tell he was trained outside the US. We're not that capable

I thought standard procedure for an active shooter nowadays is to breach immediately.

Actually it's a logical explanation of events using sound logic. All you have to offer in return is NUH UH and showing off how mindboggling ignorant you are.

Please offer a rebutal to my comments instead of just throwing out some butt hurt.

My comments were rooted in reality from my own experience of both being shot at while unarmed and being in real firefights as well as experience drawn from over 10 years working as a Medic.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2016/06/13/orlando-shooting-victim-recalls-killers-behavior-statements-during-nightclub-massacre/

"The witness said he recalled hearing Mateen mention a female who was playing dead and allegedly had a “bombing vest” like the one he reportedly wore during the attack. The other two people Mateen allegedly mentioned were two snipers, whom he said were waiting for police to arrive so they could shoot."

Yes, and I also know that they say conspiracy theorists are retards. Excuse me for not following stupid quotes. I don't even go to clubs often, and I'm the only one I saw bring up the parking spaces. If someone else here really knew nightclubs they might've spoken up