Interesting post, thanks.

According to your theory, it is also possible that elitists pushing for further power consolidation can "slip" and cause their own efforts to produce the opposite of the intended outcome. You may laugh, but I'm applying the so-called "self-referential argument" to your theory. It true, it must potentially apply across the board. My consideration aside, this is one of the better posts I've seen on this sub. Not accustomed to well thought out conjecture here.

Ya used a few words im not to sure as to what their meanings are but ya definitely seem to know what your talking about.

I have a few questions for ya though.

I am an American, born and raised. I grew up in the united states and I will most probably die in the united states.

Why is it so bad that the American way is to consume and prosper?

What makes all those trillion or quadrillions of dollars spent on ensuring national security a bad thing?

Why is America pushing to become the only world superpower a bad thing?

What is wrong with the ultra-rich staying rich while the everyday American gets what they desire? (I make that statement under the assumption that most people just want to be comfortable and entertained)

I mean don't get me wrong, America has its issues and they may even hinge on the desires of the super wealthy but I think being an American is pretty damn good in this day and age.

Technology making life easier and more enjoyable everyday. Food in great supply. Entertainment aplenty (I say that assuming everyone but me is satisfied with what today's media provides). Healthcare available in a widespread manner. Shelter or housing available to most people whether employed or disabled. The right to speech and internet access in an uncensored manner.

What am I missing?

Why is it so bad that the American way is to consume and prosper?

Because to consume is not necessarily to be happy. And the more one consumes the more he needs to be a slave cog in the system trading time for some nameless (or named) corporation on un-fulfilling shit work.

Consumerism is to fall victim to ephemeral empty pleasures in a way to dwindle the time until our death here on Earth. But it seems you haven't yet realized this.

What makes all those trillion or quadrillions of dollars spent on ensuring national security a bad thing?

You are missing that the industrial-military complex causes mass death, sickness and pain, sir.

What is wrong with the ultra-rich staying rich while the everyday American gets what they desire?

Because they are doing jack-shit for the public, and gaining more and more money. The more they have, the less the people can have. Not even accounting for the damage intentionally done through inflation which is continuing, and seemingly will continue.

Healthcare available in a widespread manner. Shelter or housing available to most people whether employed or disabled.

Nope. Just was in California and I went to school in Manhattan. Really, just no.

The right to speech and internet access in an uncensored manner.

Nope.

Just one example: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/13/opinion/andrew-cuomos-anti-free-speech-move-on-bds.html?_r=0

A worse example I just read on /r/conspiracy: http://sputniknews.com/us/20160618/1041551046/florida-attorney-suspended-orlando.html

And you think the internet is uncensored? How do you know what you don't know? And even then, what say you to the exposed information (once hidden from the American public) such as the "Snowden revelations"

What is your vision of happiness if not to consume?

What world do ya live in where the death sickness and pain aren't necessary for America to retain her liberties? The united states is in a power struggle and we (Americans) intend to win. If that means we reach out in a pre-emptive manner in order to preserve the peace then so be it.

People whine about foreign affairs in the middle east to be about oil, don't ya think America needs oil to function? We are combating nations of innate terrorism in order to stop funding them. America needs something they have and The united states doesn't support terrorism. Our engagements in the middle east are our ultimatum to their people. "Fall into line or be destroyed"

The ultra-rich don't need the public, they have the only thing that matters in life, a means to have what they desire. Why would they do anything for the public? Do ya do something for them?

And as far as Snowden goes, how do ya know that ain't the government feeding ya info?

I choose to support the government because I am aware of how privileged I am to be an American, saying im not your friend is like saying "you don't support our anti-government shenanigans that will ultimately lead to our demise" and im fine with that.

I'm a supporter of a great many conspiracies but not one of them are anti-government.

I believe in inner earth civilizations,

I believe in extraterrestrials engineering mankind,

I even believe that the democracy of the united states is just a pony show that gives the people the illusion of choice when in reality, the president is just a face for people rally behind. A sort of PR campaign to support America.

I do not believe the government ever goes out of its way to harm the people without a good enough reason for doing so.

Chemtrails->a solution for overpopulation and longevity or simplifying the masses so as to diminish the probability of revolt and revolution that would undeniably result in innocent lives being lost with the only outcome being the government killing its own people until they fell into line or the revolutionaries were all killed off. The government would never lose in the event of revolution and diminishing the probability is the safest route of action for all people involved.

Lies-> people need to hear what they need to hear in order to maintain America. Nobody will ever truly know everything a government does because transparency would result in loss of life and even war. America is determined to be the balance of power, not just a weight on the scale and to ensure that as a reality, America operates in a covert and pre-emptive manner oftentimes lying to everyone in order to maintain the status quo. What ya don't know won't hurt ya nearly as bad as what ya do know.

What else can I explain to ya with logic that ya don't seem to understand yourself?

Thanks for your excellent help. I had a suspicion he/she/it might be controlled opposition but I still didn't want someone new coming here and reading his either naive or paid reply without someone setting straight the fallacies of his argument.

Now I'm wondering if he'll reply to your response.

Hah. Well in his defense, I'd presume some in-the-box enlistee or young veteran might have his view points and still not be a shill. It's awfully strange how he is here though, on a board where we at least the casual or experienced conspiracy redditors can see right through that type of mentality, shill or not.

But yea, I don't think it's a waste of time to respond to him/it since although this place might be partially compromised, I'd hate for new people to come here and read his denial and mistake it for containing even an inkling of truth.

I believe in the golden rule and I think what ya said about not forcing mcdonalds on people rang true but I have to disagree with just about everything else ya said. I don't work for the NSA, I am disabled (schizophrenia, depression, ADHD, and ocd as well as cognitive impairment fro drug use in my teen years) and I live on welfare (not even the full allotment) but I do support the government in any way I can because I know that, as hard as my life is, it is that much easier because of the government. If ya want to cast me away because I speak in a manner that is pro-government, then that's fine but your not doing anything for yourself speaking against government.

You remind me of a video I saw made by a privilaged American white woman in Haiti that was trying to talk a poor farmer out of free hybrid corn seed he was given.

fascist freemason corporatists

First of all, Freemasons and fascists have historically been enemies. Freemasons have traditionally subscribed to classical liberalism. The fascist governments of Europe were notoriously anti-Masonic. The Nazis actually made an anti-Mason film about France.

Second of all, "corporatist" is a made-up word with no clear meaning. The word was based on a fake quote by Mussolini, and misunderstanding of the legal entities known as "corporations" and the the term "corporate" which simply means "unified," as well as a hazy misunderstanding of Communist anti-Fascist propaganda (likely, based on fifth-hand readings of Trotsky.)

We've been 'fighting socialism' for so long that we've spend an incredible amount of money on the military.

We haven't been using the military to "fight socialism" since the Cold War, and that wasn't really about "fighting socialism" anyway. In case you hadn't noticed, we've been fighting Muslims and every once in a while "fascists" like the Serbs, or "right wing militias" at home.

Agreed, however he does make some good points.

Indeed. I was in agreement with his overall characterization of Free Masonry tending to be ideologically progressive in regard to politics, and historically, a sentiment that will tend to vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, from lodge to lodge and of course from brother to brother. One historic example would be the Grand Orient and the French Revolution, the role it played in both the French and American Revolutions, primarily through the Loge des Neuf Sœurs and Jacobin Club, along with the Philadelphes, Les Amis Réunis and Society of the Friends of Truth (Amis de la Verité) in France, with the resultant Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen being another key example, as well as the role certain members of the St. Andrew’s Lodge at the Green Dragon Tavern in planning the Boston Tea Party, with the Carbonari in Italy being yet another.

It would be more accurate to regard Free Masonry, on the occasion it has been used or exploited for political aims, as a subversive at times revolutionary (or pro-revolutionary) organization, that is to say when used in service of advancing the interests of elite and their agenda. I would certainly not consider Masonry to be explicitly pro-socialist, nor pro-fascist, though at times there have been certain lodges, and primarily members within these certain lodges pursuing of their own agendas as well as those of the elite (in the process of a Hegelian dialectic, or in support of a revolution with the intent of regime change, for example) who have taken matters into their own hands and gone 'against the grain' of traditional Masonry so to speak in the pursuit of goals contrary to much of their Brethren (in other lodges), with the majority of their brethren being largely oblivious to their undertakings. The P2 lodge would be one of the more profound if not revealing examples of this, however an objectively rare occurrence in contrast to the thousands of lodges engaged in little more than mundane ritual and tradition, much of which having been profaned for the masses over the centuries, with few among their brethren grasping the depth of the esoteric symbolism and knowledge contained therein.

For further reading on the subject, I recommend:

• Secret Societies and Subversive Movements, by Nesta Webster

• Occult Theocrasy, by Lady Queenborough

• Grand Orient Freemasonry Unmasked, by Monsignor George F. Dillon

You know, you're really, really fond of that one rogue Lodge (that was kicked out of Italian Freemasonry in 1976) but you seem not to mention any of the other thousands upon thousands of Lodges around the world... I wonder why that is.

I don't hear you talk about the charity work in the aftermath of just about any natural disaster typically will involve a few local and remote Lodges just pitching in because it's the right thing to do. I imagine that you'll say that those are just "low level" Lodges that aren't at the top of the Masonic power structure (as if there was such a thing, which in a decentralized collection of autonomous authorities, there isn't) but then you'd have to acknowledge that neither was P2, or they wouldn't have been kicked out of the Grand Orient of Italy. So, I have to admit... I wouldn't want to mention them either!

Still, it seems odd that you're so laser-focused on one Lodge from forty years ago. Let's hear what you think of some modern Lodges that are highly active in their jurisdictions and which their leadership acknowledge represent the ideals and aspirations of their Grand Lodges. That would be a more representative example of what the Fraternity is.

I use it because it's a good example.

A good example is one that is representative of the whole. I see no evidence to suggest that your implicit conclusion is accurate. This is why I don't consider it to be a good example.

you're a TYLER (a tyler is a term for a freemason gatekeeper)

Eh... close enough I guess. I chose this name because, when I joined reddit, I was Tyler of my Lodge. But haven't we had that conversation in the past?

I noticed another thing. It's always Putin loves cats and myself against Jacks and Tyler-zoro.

Well, I haven't seen a whole lot of his posts until very recently, but yeah, he seems to have much the same "oh good God, more of this nonsense?" response that I do.

If you recall, your ass got downvoted to negatives...

You ... you care about imaginary Internet points?!