cult? No. Just a bunch of guys hanging out and doing obscure rituals which eventually you get to understand after about 10 years in or so simply because that's how long you have to ask around about what you're interested in. It's hermetic in scope with heavy christian/ jewish undertones since the mid 1800s when it moved away from the more hermetic understanding and changed the focus thanks to a couple of writers who made it mainstream and safe feeling for the abundance of god fearing christians that there was at the time. prior to that, it was mostly intellectuals who ran the show, now it is decidedly more blue collar.

It's mostly an old boys club that does charity and takes care of it's own as part of that charity. Try to keep the building open and men interested. Not much more going on than that except in the esoteric sense of the alchemical changing of mind and spirit through inculcation of information maintained through rote memory work.

And pancakes, lets not forget the pancakes.

In certain counties pancake breakfasts are still where you can meet and greet, and where business gets done. Seen it. Effective social networking.

you don't care about the pancake joke? You're on a list pal! * makes check mark

I'm a waffle guy. For some reason there's a van following me around that reads, "breakfast enforcement." :-)

Those guys ensure you have bacon or sausages I thought.

That was your neighbour.

Pancakes are flat....like the earth

s/

They are famous for the pancake breakfasts they hold for fund-raising and networking/infiltration.

Well, you see, there's the glory of it; there is a thick layer of porch brethren exactly like you, who, by design, just don't know any better, and, unless they are invited into the tip of the pyramid, never will. All the fundraising and PR goes on in the light of the day, while club 33 does all the immoral, unethical, and illegal shit it pleases in near absolute secrecy. It's really quite ingenious.

porch brethren lol. You have no idea what you're talking about and that's all too typical I guess. Oh well. I will just smh.

there is a thick layer of porch brethren ... while club 33

There's the problem with the uninformed criticism of Freemasonry. You start off asserting that the Mason you're talking to just doesn't know the dirty secrets and then readily admit that you don't know what you're talking about.

What is the "club 33" that you think is so important? Do you think that the Scottish Rite and their honorary degree somehow run Freemasonry?! If so, get ready for a rather large shock. 1) The Scottish Rite doesn't exist everywhere that Freemasonry does. It's entirely optional and different in each region (e.g. US vs England vs France vs. Sweden, etc.)

But more importantly, there's no centralized authority in Freemasonry, so why do you assume that 33rd degree Scottish Rite Masons in my jurisdiction would be comparable to those in your jurisdiction?

You can assume whatever grand conspiracies you like, but just understand that the reality doesn't work that way.

None of those details matter.

That's convenient for you....

1. ). Do you or do you not take an oath to swear loyalty to freemasonry / fellow brothers of masonry above loyalty to your country?

Absolutely not. In fact, exactly the opposite is stressed several times. Your duty to family, nation and God always trump your obligation to Freemasonry. Always.

If so, you should be expelled and barred from US Government employment on the basis of conflict of interest

a) why are you assuming I'm in the US? b) conflict of interest isn't an exception to citizenship that I recall from the Constitution...

1. ) Do you or do you not swear never to hold a brother culpable for masonry related crimes?

Absolutely not. You really need to stop reading anti-Masonic fan fiction.

1. ) Do you or do you not use the term jabulon to indicate within that word a reference to ba'al?

While I won't confirm or deny any specific text of any of our degrees, I will categorically deny the general religious conspiracy theory you're commenting on. Ba'al isn't (nor is any specific, secular conception of deity) a part of Masonic degrees. The only exceptions to this are two:

1. The degrees make symbolic reference to Abrahamic scripture.
2. The Order of the Knights Templar (which is unrelated to the historical Knights) is a specifically Christian group within Freemasonry.

Any other supposed references to conceptions of deity are the invention of works of fantasy, as best I can tell.

What I want to establish in the question is a confirmation that Freemasonry is an attempt to reclaim or reappropriate ancient roots, because if so, and our dollar is masonic...

There's nothing Masonic about the dollar. If your referring to the Eye of Providence, it was a symbol of the omniscience and providence of deity long before Freemasonry. The earliest known uses of the symbol are in Christian art of the middle ages.

During the 18th century it was widely used in that context by many societies, organizations and religious groups, including those who constructed the Great Seal of the United States.

According to Tom Horn, it is a cult of the Atlantean Gods.

Not the M thing?

If we Freemasons are a cult, then we are one in which the cult leader is changed yearly, all brothers are equal to this leader, who only conducts the business meetings and degrees with the help of his brethren. I find it difficult to believe any article coming from a televangelist, whose sole purpose and means of income in life is selling salvation. If we are a cult, then we are a cult whose so called secrets are easily found with a search engine. Yes there are religious aspects to Freemasonry, but we are as much of a cult as any other fraternal organization, most of which have borrowed heavily from Masonry. But of course I'd say this as a Mason, and I'm obviously so low level I don't see the big picture. Yes we are taking over the world - one pancake breakfast at a time.

You're correct that we do not learn how to be an actual stonemason in lodge. You're also correct that the Rosicrucian's had a lot of influence on Freemasonry, as did a lot of other Gnostic groups. I think that you are confusing something having a religious aspect to something being a religion. Every meeting starts with a prayer which I would call religious, but every member has their own idea of who/what God is. We are far from a religion. Also, Pancakes isn't a euphemism for dead hookers bodies. It's a direct reference to one of our main fundraising activities being pancake breakfasts.

Its funny because other Freemason explainers / defenders say there is no religious aspect to Freemasonry

I challenge you to find someone who rejects the idea that there are religious aspects to the Masonic degrees. There's a Bible in the middle of the room... it's kind of hard to deny that. But there's a massive chasm of difference between "having religious aspects" and "being a religion." Many philosophical discussions I've had "had religious aspects" but they're still just philosophical discussions.

You cannot be a religion and leave the individual's beliefs alone. Freemasonry leaves the individual's beliefs alone. What you believe is between you and your religion and Freemasonry doesn't get a say in that.

That's the difference.

There is a Koran in the lodges in Syria.

In some, true. And in some the Bagavahd Gita is used. In my Lodge, the Bible is always there, but many other books of scripture are available for candidates of their respective religions.

Are you trying to make my point for me that Freemasonry is not a religion and respects the religion of its members as their own affair?

Freemasonry is not christian

Correct. Nor is it Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Taoist, Shinto, Deist, Neopagan, Jedi, Mormon or any other sectarian religion. That's because it's not a religion. I'm glad we agree.

Freemasonry is gnosticism which is part hermeticism

1. Gnosticism is a philosophical and religious outlook that that predates hermeticism by at least 1,500 years.
2. Freemasonry is neither. There are certainly gnostic and non-gnostic interpretations of the degrees as well as hermetic and non-hermetic interpretations. Neither is right or wrong, it's merely the interpretations of individuals.

part ancient paganism (astrotheology), chaldeanism, alchemy, metaphysics, and kabbalism with some influence in the direction from sabbateanism and millenialism

Now you're just arm-waving.

Two questions:

1) Why pancakes? Have ya'll found that they attract the most people to an event? Do they bring in the most money?

2) What is enlightenment?

It's a running joke in the Freemasons that all we do is have pancake breakfasts. Secondly, enlightenment is defined by oneself. It's learning a new skill, reading a new book, anything that gives you knowledge personally enlightens you. So your personal definition would differ from mine.

Imagine any group of people - they only remain a group as long as their group-think has stasis. Masonic lodges are no different. Attendance is scant and membership is dwindling. There are several reasons for this, but one is because it's not a "cult"...at least in the way most people use the word.

Let's use the word "cult" as an example, to talk about symbols. In the 3rd point above, it's insinuated that meanings are taught of symbols. Then, it's insinuated that the meanings taught have been lies. Actually, what's happening is that the candidate is being taught that symbols can have multiple meanings; the meaning's in your mind. It's not that the previous explanation was wrong, it's that the symbol doesn't "mean" anything at all...you get to choose a meaning, and use one that's most useful for the work you're doing. So, we began with the word "cult"...it doesn't come in very handy, when trying to apply a precise label on Masonry. However, if, to you, a "cult" is a group of people who get together and practice rituals, then yes, it's a cult. If, to you, a "cult" is a group of people who get together and talk about meanings of symbols, in an effort to modify their relationships and experiences in life, then yes, it's a cult. Some would actually call that black magic. Eventually, you learn that the word "cult" isn't an exact enough tool (symbol) to express what it is you're trying to ask, when you ask if something's a "cult".

As far as the "Worshipful Master" bit - the term "Worshipful" is used more commonly across the pond than it is in the US. Even new Masons come in asking, "why the heck are we to call that guy worshipful?". If all the Masonic terms were updated and Americanized, "Worshipful Master" would be one of the titles that would be reconsidered. That said, there is absolutely no worshiping of the Worshipful Master going on. On the contrary, this is some bloke who's serving a one year term, who is being taught what it's like to "lead" a bunch of volunteers who all want different things, and that each guy feels that he's got the right answers. He tries his best, for a year, to be the "Worshipful Master" and enjoy his climb to the "top" of his lodge. What he receives is the experience and wisdom that comes from it...namely, that "Worshipful Master" didn't mean what he previously thought, and that being a leader wasn't what he thought. He's attended a school of hard-knocks, where he learned his lessons by doing the work.

As far as the article above, I think many Masons would LOVE for it to really work that way. What they're more likely to see is a bunch of people acting like...well...people. They break the rules. They leave because they don't like the food. They never "leave", they just stop coming. Then, they stop sending in their dues. They see decisions made for political reasons. They ascend to positions with hopes that they'll finally receive the respect they deserve. They receive respect, but it's never sufficient, so they look for ways to "earn" more. But, it's Masonry. It's a curriculum of learning. One of the "meanings" taught is to keep an eye on what you want, because god doesn't limit that for you. God left that for YOU to limit, yourself. So this includes managing your compassion and expectations for other people.

But WAIT! That doesn't sound like the Freemasonry that I've grown to see as evil, or satanic, or anti-christian, or a "cult". Well, as it turns out, Masonic problems are people problems. Political problems are people problems. Church problems are people problems and Family problems are people problems. Saying that the problem lies within any group sounds mysterious and fun to whisper about, but it usually pans out the same way as xenophobia or racism; the stereotypes feel accurate, right up to the point where you learn a new way of looking at it....

...just like the symbols.

Freemansonry operates on group-think, which is classic methodology for breaking paradigms, they do not use operant conditioning, OC is a way to punish negative behavior and promote positive behavior. Freemasonry is meant to create reidentification in the individual and have them accept the paradigm they FM is the core of how they define themselves, much like a religion.