The whole thing is fixed from the beginning anyway. 320 million people and only 2 parties? Why should this be the case?

You'll never have a 3rd party if you can't count the votes.

We need a larger forum with more candidates! We already have a 3rd party, 53 of them to be exact. The problem is corruption, so if we want more options, we have to end the corruption.

How many ways are there to end corruption as civilians?

Where is the petition to request Congress make the voting machines illegal?

1) Remove donations from corporations and political bodies.

2) Only allow donations from individuals at a cap.

3) Break up the media monopolies and regulate them under constitutional standards.

4) Eliminate opponent slander and require candidates to address the public with only their policy platforms.

etc...

One & two are possible, 1st part of 3 is possible, 2nd part is no regulation ( freedom of speech, no regulation of speech) 4th impossible to enforce too much is subjective.

They enforce slander in law all the time. It's all possible.

Slander is a civil matter, just like libel and deformation of character. I can just see they go!ing suit against each other, NOT.

No civility in politics. And no civilization.

It really don't get the idea that corporations can donate.

Corporations are just groups of people. If each person can donate as an individual, the idea that they can form a group and donate again is ludicrous.

But how do you get a group of elected officials to vote against their self interest? You don't.

at least back before superpacs, corporations had the deceny to make maximum donations in the name of every single one of their employees.

That number should be 8%. Yours is right though!

Why should it be 8%? And 8% of a national poll rather than registered voters? How come?

What if 1 million people want to hear a candidate? Why should their opinion not count?

It should just be that any candidate on the ballot in enough states to have a mathematical chance to win is allowed to debate.

Or just the five largest political parties at the time of the debate, by registered members. As of right now that would be Democrats (Clinton), Republicans (Trump), Libertarians (Johnson), Greens (Stein), and Constitutionists (Castle).

Five is a good number, because that way you don't have a crowded debate stage (like the GOP primary) and you don't have fringe "parties" with only a couple thousand members like the American Nazi Party or the Communist Party, but you still have a wide range of different views represented.

You don't need to be on the ballot in enough states to get 270 votes to become President, you just need to come in the top 3 by electoral vote and hope no one else gets 270.

The whole system is fucked up. The polls are manipulated far too easily. Petition based would make more sense

Theoretically, if the system is fucked up, what is petitioning going to do for it?

I meant the process to enter the debates could be petition based.

It should be 1%

The 2 parties are an artifact of winner take all ection mechanism. Changing that will enable more parties to be meaningful.

True. But, they can't count the vote now, so why in the future?

I am suspicious of the voting machines to the point where I assume that fraud has occurred in every US election they were used in. So totally with you on that.

But your comment makes absolutely no sense. We hand counted votes for the vast majority of this country's history and have not a viable third party in ages.

Lack of 3rd party isn't the problem.

This is why https://youtu.be/s7tWHJfhiyo

Exactly this. All FPTP voting systems eventually converge to a 2 party system. That's not a conspiracy (theres not enough talk about the trainwreck that is FPTP to even warrant a conspiracy on their part), that's just lack of foresight on the founding fathers parts.

Lack of foresight? It's extremely intended. Notice how all the FPTP countries are former british empires? https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9d/Countries_That_Use_a_First_Past_the_Post_Voting_System.png/220px-Countries_That_Use_a_First_Past_the_Post_Voting_System.png

Not a coincidence... they're easier to control that way

1st past the post.

2 parties just seems the most stable to me. If there were three parties, then two would team up to beat the other, giving 2 parties.

The times when a 3rd party has been in the race, it results in splitting votes off whichever bigger party it is most similar to, letting the other big guy win, which is the worst outcome for those losers.

It seems like the only way to have more parties is to have a parliamentary system, which allows parties to elect reps in proportion to their support, instead of our winner take all system

duverger's law

Need to change the way we vote... It's going to be a while, if ever.

Not 320 million people voted

Out of 320 million people, Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton are the best you can do?

Maybe not but it is what the people chose

[deleted]

bread + circus => beer + TV

Because of our constitution? If you want more parties get rid of the parts that set it up.

Divide and conquer

Democracy was a mistake. They have Alzheimer suffers, welfare receivers, and football fans have equal power to normal tax paying citizens.

If democracy can be abused this much, imagine the abuse any other system that we know of will face.

Enlist now! Become a Citizen!

Let's all just switch to a dictatorship, you're already deciding who are "normal tax paying citizens" and who isn't. Why do we need any other opinion than yours? Let's jail all those football fans, since you don't like them. This is exactly why I'd rather a democracy than whatever you had in your head.

Voting machines are only client systems that upload data to a backbone server. You can vote on one of these machines, see your votes on the ticket spool and still not know your vote was changed after the data has been merged.

You not only need to know that the machines you vote on hasn't been tampered with but you also should be able to verify your vote hasn't been changed after it's uploaded server side.

Paper. Ballots.

Blockchain with receipts

We need to do something because we are in a very big mess.

Computer Programmer testifies "US Elections Rigged." He explains how he created a prototype for Florida Congressman Tom Feeny that would flip the vote 51%-49% in favor of a specified candidate.

Republican IT guru subpoenaed to testify in an Ohio federal court regarding alleged voter fraud in the 2004 election, was warned at least twice about flying his plane because his plane might be sabotaged, canceled flights because of suspicious problems with his plane, then dies in a plane crash.

Stephen Spoonamore who was mentioned in that news article was featured on an ABC interview on election fraud which never aired. He has worked for the Secret Service, Pentagon, FBI, and major banks detecting credit card fraud. He flat out states DIEBOLD is stealing elections. You can watch that interview here.

Spoonamore's bio here.

This is a very informative read regarding the death of Michael Connell

In September 2009, an anonymous letter was sent to the FBI in Ohio and five other addressees, including Heather Connell. “Enclosed is a document that is not meant to exist,” begins the anonymous writer. Included is what purports to be an “after action report” by a black ops agent. All names have been redacted, but the report provides a detailed time log of actions taken to install an AMD (microprocessor) in the engine of Connell’s plane at College Park Airfield in D.C. the night before he made his fatal last flight. Connell himself is not mentioned by name. Just the registration number of his plane, NP299N, which the agent confirms he had been sent to “neutralize.” The letter accompanying the report is headed MICHAEL CONNELL, HOMICIDE. It ends with the words: “Connell was not NST (national security threat).”

While skeptics may be tempted to dismiss these documents as the ingenious work of a hoaxer intent on pouring gasoline on the bonfire of conspiracy theories already surrounding Connell, 
a number of experts from the intelligence community who have seen the document believe it to be genuine. In early November, the NTSB finally released its factual report into Connell’s crash. The report concludes that tests carried out on the plane’s engine, flight control, and autopilot systems revealed “no anomalies that would have precluded normal operation.”

A spokeswoman for the NTSB confirmed that the organization had received a copy of the anonymous letter, but would not say whether its claims were being looked into. “We’re investigating the accident,” she says, “not any possible criminal activity.” She adds that the NTSB forwarded the letter to the FBI in Cleveland. When asked to confirm this, Scott Wilson at the FBI’s Cleveland bureau, says, “The only thing I can say is...I can’t say anything.”

Ultimately, only a full criminal investigation can determine the truth about Ohio ’04 and the death of Michael Connell. Robert Kennedy Jr., who sought Connell’s cooperation during an investigation into the election, believes the current administration should pursue the matter. “I think this is more serious than Watergate,” he says. “Watergate was essentially about winning the battle for public opinion. That’s why the break-in took place—to gather strategic information about Democratic strategy and dirt. But the electoral process remained intact. The Ohio vote undermines the very foundation stone of American democracy. There should be an official investigation. Otherwise this becomes a blueprint for how to steal an election from here to eternity.”

Let's vote on it.

Let's just vote right here.

At the last election I voted I started getting loud when I did not receive a paper receipt. I explained that there was no way to know if the voting was being rigged. Everyone stared bewilderedly and I left saying Fuck this shit

This is the moment when you activate your trap card SECOND AMMENDMENT and shoot them in the face for violating your freedoms.

Maybe yell "Freedom!" when you do it.

Yes yes, oh god yes.

Have you read Robert Steele by any chance? The Open Source Everything Manifesto, if you're interested.

Has there been found a solution yet how to both make sure votes are legit and guaranty the anonymity of the votes?

Shhhh that's way to fair and verifiable for the American political system.

paper ballots are outdated in today's age and has just as big, if not bigger, room for rigging.

there's one simple and easy solution that solves all the problems.

you check in with your ID. it's verified, and it's recorded that you already came to this place to vote so you cannot go anywhere else throughout the day and vote multiple times.

everyone that votes is given a printed slip of paper with a unique alphanumeric code. When the last voting booth closes, a spreadsheet is uploaded that has every single vote from every single booth in the entire country in one list. This can be downloaded by anyone around the world, and every single person should arrive at the exact same conclusion of who won what state/county/etc to the exact number.

So each row might be something like

eAgw82gHFs 14:43:00 Dallas Texas District-3 TRUMP

You can go and check your exact vote by searching the document for your alpha# code. You can confirm that your vote was recorded for the same person you cast it.

The only problem left then is 'what if millions of fake e-votes are inserted in to this list? everyone would still have their vote counted, but the faked votes would throw the election'

the best thing i had in my head for that is to allow the vote booths to record only 1 vote every 30 seconds. Then on the spreadsheet, there's no way to insert fake votes at a busy booth because they wouldn't fit in the time slots. As for booths that are vacant for large times of the day, have every voting booth under low-resolution video recording (so the face isn't recognizable), so people can verify that someone was actually voting at a specific time rather than empty dummy booths being set up to flood the count with fake votes

everyone that votes is given a printed slip of paper with a unique alphanumeric code. [...] You can go and check your exact vote by searching the document for your alpha# code. You can confirm that your vote was recorded for the same person you cast it.

I'm pretty sure this goes against anti-coersion laws.

Paper ballots intentionally do not reveal your vote, even to those that know your ballot serial number. If someone tries to coerce your vote, all they can learn is that your vote was counted and the outcome for that district, but unless the outcome is 100%, the coercing party can't tell for certain whether their coercion was successful.

If you keep at it, you'll find its possible to design a digital scheme that is verifiable and confidential, but none of the electronic voting companies are doing anything remotely like that.

If you keep at it, you'll find its possible to design a digital scheme that is verifiable and confidential,

I'd like to see the proof of this. The three ballot method, where you fill each out differently, and the three together make a vote, could work, but from what I've seen, it's possible to determine votes in elections with more than a few choices and less than a certain population. It's also a fairly confusing system for the average and below average voter.

Stop trying to solve problems using logic, fuck's sake

I love this idea!

As for the potential for fake votes, we could just have our poll watchers check that the number of votes cast matches the number of visitors. Then if there's a discrepancy, they would just have to compare codes against the spreadsheet and flag any numbers that didn't match up.

I think it's key that the website is super transparent. Like the flagged votes should show up on the website. That way, if someone's number is flagged they could show up in person, with ID, to some office to have their vote manually entered.

Cameras seem to take it too far, expense-wise and for paranoid people. Imo

cameras wouldn't be that expensive really, especially not even a molecule of a drop in the ocean for what the US govt spends on things, and to cover the whole voting floor probably not even 1% of what the govt spends on each voting machine

For each polling place, one $20 (full retail) camera from amazon would cover it.

like half or less of the resolution of this video and they could use software to blur the images of people even more if that's what people wanted (like how google blurs faces on google maps)

There are a lot of solutions but for THIS election, paper ballots.

sadly with paper they can do just as much retarded shit. "oh they were lost", "your vote was misplaced", "there was miscounting errors", etc

Hanging chads

There are plenty of ways to ensure everyone's vote is counted and only real votes are counted. Unfortunately a lot of them violate privacy.

You've basically described a shittier version of the blockchain

It's a start.

This system couldn't work cos it discriminates against people...billion dollar corporations who want to rig the election are people too!!!

They steal the vote currently using early voting as well. Shenanigans when they merge the precinct day of votes with the early. No checks on the early vote.

Or maybe an online site where we can check to make sure our vote was entered correctly? If the data is all electronic then it shouldn't be too difficult, say for instance after you place your vote you get a code which is used to lookup your vote so that no names or party registered info is known, just an 8 digit code

This is a good idea

You think rigging paper ballots isn't also incredibly easy?

Harder than electronic

I doubt it to be honest.

Possibly from a technical standpoint, but paper ballots at least increase the amount of individual humans and physical evidence involved.

The more people involved the more chance any rigging will get whistle blown... Hopefully.

It's incredibly easy to just add ballots or lose ballots. It's really not harder than electronic at all.

Australia just did this and the whole thing was a sham anyway.

We did?

They can create two servers. One of the servers is for legitimate votes, the other is the official count that's fraudulent.

Of course you can look up your vote. They will tell you what you want to hear which is not reality.

Verifying would be nice, but it wouldn't be tamper proof. They could add fake votes while keeping the real ones. This way we could verify and feel like the vote was accurate.

we also need to see the setup tables that include the candidates in that voter precinct. There may be data fields in the setup tables that "increase" the vote. i.e. if Hillary selected, add 1.25 to total.

Source code can be changed. Not sure seeing it would help unless you're watching a linux terminal run the code as its happening.

This is so important for everyone to know. My parents have mailed in ballots to be hand counted for years, and now I know why.

You should be aware that in most areas those ballots are not counted until after the election, or not at all.

You mean, they're not counted until they can decide an election, yes?

Right. There's no reason to count them if they're irrelevant.

Suppose there are 100 votes cast at the ballot, and 10 absentee ballots cast. Of the votes cast at the ballot, candidate A receives 80 and candidate B receives 20. In this case, there would be no reason to bother counting the absentee ballots. On the other hand, if the vote spread is 55/45 or closer, then the absentee ballots would be counted.

If the split is 80/20, do they simply report it as 88/22 (since we all know there a 110 voters)?

Why do you trust the people counting votes and the mail system delivering more than a computer system.

I don't know what you mean by "watching it run the code as it's happening" but I don't think there is a way you can make sure (on someone else's machine) that the binary you are running is actually the source code you looked at.

They can provide their own compiler after all. So even if you tried to compile the source code it could just compile something else in the background.

On someone else's machine there is no way to make sure that the code being run is actually the source code you checked.

An application only outputs what it is designed to output to the terminal if anything at all.

Right. OP says "source code", but I think what they want is validated counts on hard copy. Two very different things.

Also, the source code won't tell you if someone plugged in a pen drive to run a script to flip votes. The source code doesn't tell you anything about the actual votes cast at all.

watching a linux terminal

r/HailCorporate

There's already been testimony by experts that the machines are easily hacked. There's been many stories about it. People had their outrage. Still nothing happened. No political will to address the issue meaningfully.

Guess that means the election is illegitimate. So now what?

Honestly? Revolution or nothing. We clearly can't change things the way our forefathers built it for us to change things. We have to take matters into our own hands.

And more than that we have to make a bunch of internet/Netflix munchers actually give a shit about something that isn't on a screen in front of them.

War should be our very last resort once all options are exhausted. I'd say the best bet to get a rapid response without unnecessary bloodshed would be for us as a nation to march on Washington, armed if need be, surround the lot of them and tell them they're fired. From there, we establish a new continental congress based on the constitution, have fair elections, and the previous occupants should be tried in court and punished according to their crimes. Then we need to work on closing all the loopholes, and preventing something like this from ever happening again. Remember the greatest challenge when starting a revolution is what comes after the victory. The last thing anybody would want is to go through all that, possibly sacrificing their lives, only to have it all unravel down the road.

If those in power refuse to surrender, then we would need to refuse to recognize them and eventually they'll go away or rot in their bunkers. Refuse to pay them taxes, refuse to obey their agents; in every way deny their authority. We the people have the power, and if we collectively tell them to fuck off, they will have no choice but to obey the will of the people or perish themselves in a futile struggle. As long as the first shot fired comes from their side and said movement can maintain the moral high ground, it is inevitable that justice will prevail. Fight a war of information and broadcast their atrocities. The truth is bulletproof and they can't possibly keep popular support in the face of their own crimes. This is our time right now and we can either fight to be free, or live forever as slaves.

Very good. Agreed. Matter of fact, I created an OP that echoed just this very idea the other day. However, we must keep in mind who and what we're up against. If you haven't already seen the following documentary, I highly recommend it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1Qt6a-vaNM

I'm with you in what you're saying, but if you're really serious about it, the documentary is pretty much a must watch because it gives you an idea of the full breath and power of the forces we're up against, and of just how influential and how absolutely nefarious and without conscience they are...as well as how admittedly far-sighted and intelligent they are in their machinations as well.

I'm watching it in chunks actually. It's a long doc. I'm taking it in bit by bit. I've seen it before (I believe...I've seen a lot of docs), but it absolutely bears watching carefully again.

We must know what the forces we're up against are capable of in order to move successfully against them.

Namaste,

Wow, yeah it's three hours but I'll still check it out. I'm well aware the magnitude of evil we're going up against, but they're prepared for violent revolution so we cannot give them one or risk losing everything. We fight on our terms, not theirs. The wealthy elite only hold power through their money. They corrupt by making deals one cannot refuse. The way I see it, any new government would have to be incorruptible and anyone caught dealing with those people should be tried and punished as traitors. Likewise those wealthy elites need to arrested and tried in court themselves. Only problem I forsee is them using their money to buy a good lawyer that can get them off, so the evidence against them would need to be indisputable.

My suggestion would be to make one of the requirements for holding government office, especially the office of the president, that a candidate must be a military veteran. I say this because those who volunteer for military service have already proven with their blood and their oath that they are indeed loyal to the United States and the constitution. Also veterans are trained to put the needs of the group above the individual, and I think if someone wants to be commander-in-chief, where they will be in charge of all the armed forces, they need to have some kind of military background themselves. I find it insane that we allow lawyers, bureaucrats, businessmen to be in charge of making decisions for our military where they put American lives at risk as well as those across the pond. And most of the time, those decisions are made for power or for profit rather than any tangible threat to the nation.

Wow, yeah it's three hours but I'll still check it out.

It’s long, but that doc pretty much shows that it’s extremely difficult to really go up against them and fight them effectively without first realizing and finding out the true evil that these corporate multinational types are capable of and have very much exacted for quite a long time now.

I’d say watch it in chunks. I started watching it a few days ago. I’ll watch the entire thing over the course of a week or so. Bit by bit. Let it sink in slowly. It’s a better watch that way anyway, as you’ll be able to take it in and digest it better.

As far as I understand it, this is roughly how the world at least on some level works and breaks down:

Powerful elite individuals - mostly from the United States and Europe - come together and put their thinking caps on in order to

A) use money and fractional reserve lending practices/lending money at interest, etc along with

B) a powerful corporate structure that they built over decades to

C) covertly manipulate the government and the whole of the political system so that they can

D) have complete control over the entire population and continue sucking them (us) dry as a parasite does a host while they

E) fool the people into thinking it’s the government that’s the organism doing it and in control of the “rule of the land” and not they themselves and their nefarious, underhanded, deceitful practices.

According to some of the research I’ve done into this, the profits they accrue from these exploitive practices has helped them build an absolutely monolithic breakaway civilization that exists apart and nearly independent from the civilization we know here on Earth. I can say more, but I’ll stop here for now.

they're prepared for violent revolution so we cannot give them one

Yes. Fully agreed. We need to be very prepared and unafraid to fight back with arms if need be, but only use them as a last resort and move instead toward intelligently opposing their influence without firing any shots if we don't have to. Part of how we do this is by taking all the faux racist, separatist indoctrination that these ptb have brainwashed into us, putting it down and away forever, coming together as the one people that we indeed are, and simply standing together and discontinuing to participate in their shit system. We would be able to do this effectively if we help one another through the difficulty that this non-participation will likely result in.

We fight on our terms, not theirs.

Correct and agreed - but we have to realize that they will constantly try to infiltrate and undermine our terms, so we must be diligently aware of their underhanded influence in our own ranks. We will have members in our own ranks that will think more like Cypher than Neo, Trinity, and Morpheus, and those members will likely be easily swayed by money, power, and the other trappings that the corporate PTB will attempt to entice them away from the cause with.

The wealthy elite only hold power through their money.

But they use that money to be extremely influential in their nefarious manipulations. They ultimately convince many of us that we “need” money and that our lives will be so much better if we do things their way. As such, we must take very seriously just how manipulated and swayed many members in our own ranks might be by the money these wealthy elite will flash before them.

I’m agreeing w/everything you’re saying, btw. I’m just making sure that we are aware of just how seriously we would have to take their influence if any counter force against them that we mount is to have any real success.

They corrupt by making deals one cannot refuse.

Exactly this, sir. So we need to make sure and have members that are A) aware of this, and B) able to resist it. We need to have in our own system and amongst our own ranks a philosophy and a system of comportment that realizes just how much better our way of doing things is - for the long term and the short term for that matter - than TPTB’s system and way of doing things.

The way I see it, any new government would have to be incorruptible and anyone caught dealing with those people should be tried and punished as traitors.

I don’t disagree…but we have to be disciplined in this stance because I guarantee you that there will in fact be traitors, and we will in fact have to punish many who try to infiltrate and undermine the system. TPTB will then use our strict methodology - our way of being incorruptible and not tolerating traitors - and they will attempt to mount propaganda against us by saying that we are some sort of “dictatorship” because we don’t tolerate dissent amongst our ranks. They will try to paint us as the totalitarian dictatorship that they themselves are, and may very well influence and sway some impressionable members of our very own group who do not see and understand the deeper, bigger picture here.

Likewise those wealthy elites need to [be] arrested and tried in court themselves. Only problem I forsee is them using their money to buy a good lawyer that can get them off, so the evidence against them would need to be indisputable.

I agree, but they won’t just buy good lawyers. They will buy good lawyers, and likely have the judges themselves in their pocket - as they definitely do now. They will have the judges in their pocket, or they will simply hire hit men to go to the judge’s place of residence and kill them. They’ve done this before. At that point, the very judicial system itself designed to punish them will be too scared to do so and the judges themselves will declare them innocent and let them go free.

This is actually almost exactly what is talked about in the documentary I linked. There was a plot that a group of wealthy corporate industrialists came together and made in the early 30s to have a military coup staged in the United States to overtake the government here, oust president Franklin D. Roosevelt, and install a totalitarian corporate dictatorship. The person these wealthy industrialists used to lead this coup was the most decorated military individual on the planet at the time - Marine General Smedley Butler.

Being the man of intense honor that General Butler was, he ultimately turned all these wealthy corporate industrialists in to president Roosevelt, and explained that they were planning on killing him and overtaking the government.

And what happened after that? What did Franklin Delano Roosevelt do when he found out these men were trying to kill him? Did he imprison all these wealthy corporatists? Guillotine them?

…No. He didn’t do a single thing to them. Roosevelt did nothing to them. He just let them all go.

...because he realized they were in fact his masters, and the corporatists were above and over the government itself. It was they who were above and in control of the government - not the other way around.

So yes…we have to be very wary of the legal representation that these criminal elite have, but it’s also about making sure the SYSTEM they get tried under is not already fully rigged by them…as the current system most definitely is.

Having a good lawyer doesn’t mean enough if the entire system under which that lawyer is operating has been putrified and corrupted by corporate money, or intimidated and scared by the murderers that corporate money can hire to twist and undermine justice - and this is the case in our current system, unfortunately.

My suggestion would be to make one of the requirements for holding government office, especially the office of the president, that a candidate must be a military veteran.

That doesn’t seem like a horrible suggestion. Heck, literally the only reason why the Business Plot I talked about above to overtake the U.S. government wasn't successful was because the military general that the corporate industrialists hired to carry out the plot ACTUALLY TURNED THEM IN. General Smedley Butler is the unsung hero of democracy in a very real way. THAT dude should have been president.

As far as I understand, the Marine and Navy branch of the military tend to have a code of ethics that’s even more geared toward honor and communal faithfulness than the Army or the Air Force (no disrespect to them).

I say this because those who volunteer for military service have already proven with their blood and their oath that they are indeed loyal to the United States and the constitution. Also veterans are trained to put the needs of the group above the individual, and I think if someone wants to be commander-in-chief, where they will be in charge of all the armed forces, they need to have some kind of military background themselves.

Those seem like good suggestions.

I find it insane that we allow lawyers, bureaucrats, businessmen to be in charge of making decisions for our military where they put American lives at risk as well as those across the pond. And most of the time, those decisions are made for power or for profit rather than any tangible threat to the nation.

Fully agreed, sir. Yes.

I'm not as well versed in how to make all those neat quotations so I'll try to make this a clean and concise read.

Some of the major hurdles we would have to overcome would be:

A) Obtaining and keeping popular support with a majority of people. With this, I see the only way forward is to be unshakably honest and stick to the traditional values that this nation was founded on.

B) Establishing some sense of legitimacy and trust. This is a tough one and your suggestions would be most welcome. The best I can think of right now, would be as I said above, we would need to stick to real American values and not once step off the path of liberty and justice for all, without exception. Every decision must be just and even if it is a tough decision, it must be the wise decision and it must be proved to be so without any doubt.

C) Creating a new system of justice that follows the principles of the rule of law with sound judgement that doesn't adhere to strict, "by the book", enforcement, but rather treats each case on an individual basis. I could go on with the topic of criminal justice alone, however it is very broad and probably one of the most in need of immediate remedy. A big reason why we're up shit creek without a paddle is precisely because of the massive failures of the justice system.

D) Dissembling the philosophy of the mechanical view of the universe, where in people see themselves more like a product coming out of a biological factory rather than an expression of nature, no different than the animals, the plants, and the stars in the sky. A major reason why people are so easily manipulated is because most everyone carries around a profound emptiness inside of themselves because they truly have no idea what they're surviving for, so everyone is desperate to cling to any kind of meaning they can give themselves. Creating a more comfortable style living has become in of itself a reason to live, and so people now value themselves and other people on material possessions or holding titles of prestige. Once people can surrender the need to be better than everyone else and realize that we're all in this together, the sooner we can put our heads together and say "ok, how do we fix this for good?"

E) Reinventing public education, removing the influence of the state, and ending the "war on kids". Public education as we know it today was founded by John D. Rockefeller and based around the Prussian factory model of education, which focused more on blind obedience to authority and of course a more martial perspective of the world. Schools today resemble prisons more than a welcoming learning environment. Zero-tolerance policies, teachers using police departments to enforce discipline for infractions that once warranted nothing more than a call home, detention, or just a stern talking to; cameras, metal detectors, barred windows and barbed wire fences, the list goes on. More and more we see children in schools being treated as criminals that are guilty until proven innocent, and they are not even being taught their rights as citizens in the classroom. They are legally denied their constitutional rights in school on the grounds that they aren't old enough to have them and the faculty are their parents while their real family is away. Well what happens is these kids go out into the real world and they don't know their rights, so when someone tries to infringe on them, they don't have the education to back themselves up and stop it. Likewise when those in power to try to take those rights away through legislation, they won't bat an eye because they never knew they had any rights to begin with. Education is another big topic that deserves major attention, but we can come back to that if need be.

F) Bring the focus back to communities and have locals supporting their neighbors. People are so easy to dehumanize one another for things they themselves could have easily fallen into. The community should be your family beyond your biological family, the idea of a "tribe" isn't that foreign to the human psyche. If someone doesn't have a home, give them a home. If they don't have food, give them food. Basic needs of survival should always be met; food, water, shelter, and security should be guaranteed, otherwise we have no business bringing more people into this world (and frankly it should be criminal to bring someone into this life without the intention to look after their well being into the future). Mutual voluntary interaction is the key, people need to be willing to give without expecting something in return. The fact you helped another person while they were in dark times should be enough, and perhaps that person will repay your kindness in the future. If you pull someone out of the muck and they succeed in the future, they will certainly remember you and whatever you gave to them will likely be returned in some way. Plant community gardens, build public recreation centers, have free concerts that promote local musicians, support public parks, do anything and everything that follows the idea of bringing people together in healthy and peaceful ways that encourage them to talk, and to share and to love.

G) Encouraging people to learn from their ancestors, giving up unnecessary luxuries, and learning to build in harmony with nature. A significant reason people don't stand up for themselves anymore is their lives are too comfortable and convenient. They can have everything they want instantly, and the idea of fighting for change means that they will have to give up their luxury. People should try to do small things for themselves like grow their own food and generate their own electricity. It wasn't that long ago that a majority of the American population lived on farms and were self sustainable. Even if you live in the city, there are so many abandoned buildings and lots that could easily be transformed into something that benefits the local community. If people are solely dependent on themselves for their needs, they won't need to be dependent on the government or corporations, and thereby those entities simply become obsolete. Likewise, being self-sustaining will rebuild the strength of the individual character because they know first hand the work that goes into everything they do, and that sense of appreciation will extend to the other people around them. Their tolerance for hardship will be heightened and people will learn to be happy with less, much like their grandparents, and their ancestors that came before them did. When we build, we shouldn't destroy the ecosystem, driving out the wildlife and paving over the greenery. Who wants to live in a grey world anyway? Buildings should be encouraged to be colorful and local artists can be commissioned to paint murals. I always had an idea that shopping malls should have live trees growing inside and allow birds to nest and fly around. I don't have much in the way of detail for that idea, but perhaps it can be a hybrid indoor/outdoor facility and have it built in a way that it doesn't require a lot of maintenance and allows nature to clean up after itself. In a nutshell, you could say that when you want to build a house on a hill, you don't flatten the hill then build on top of it; you build with the hillside. If we can merge modern technology and innovations with tried and true techniques that humans have used forever, we can reach a point where people's lives become a lot more simple, a lot more healthy and a lot more happy.

H) People have the right to be left alone. Part of the idea of voluntary participation is also the other side of the coin, wherein you may choose not to participate. The idea of taxation at gunpoint and compulsory this and that is just stupid. People shouldn't be forced to do anything unless they are harming someone else. If someone wants to be left alone, people should honor that. If everyone is freely giving and sharing, they'll probably want to join in anyway. Otherwise, who cares? Just leave them alone and let them live. This need for people to stick their noses in other peoples business is another major factor in why we face the issues we have today. Just mind your business and live your own life, why bother worrying about someone else? Worry about your own life and your family first, then you can extend that to your community if you want to.

I'll leave it there for now, I might come up with some more ideas later, but I want to see what you have to say. Also if anybody else is still reading this stuff, please feel free to join in the conversation. Your suggestions will always be appreciated.

I'm not as well versed in how to make all those neat quotations

There’s a button on your keyboard that looks like this >

It’s on the lower right just to the left of the question mark.

Just make sure and put that little right-pointing arrow thingy in front of the phrase you want to quote, and it will…

look like this!

:)

the only way forward is to be unshakably honest and stick to the traditional values that this nation was founded on.

I sort of kind of agree with that…but we have to realize that this nation was also founded upon the maiming and raping and killing, the genociding and pillaging and the enslaving of whole groups of people.

We cannot under any circumstances have anything even remotely approaching or similar to that. It must be about freedom and honor and equality for every white anglo saxon European male HUMAN BEING.

Establishing some sense of legitimacy and trust. This is a tough one and your suggestions would be most welcome.

Well, we do this by engaging the community and encouraging participation from the members of the group. We are all in this together. We all have to work. We will all reap the benefits and will be rewarded for that work.

not once step off the path of liberty and justice for all, without exception. Every decision must be just and even if it is a tough decision, it must be the wise decision and it must be proved to be so without any doubt.

Very much agreed…but I would say it would be a lot easier said than done.

I think a restructuring of our educational paradigm will be absolutely needed too though. Our current educational system is about creating dumb cogs that can be useful “expendables” - very much like many of the products we make designed under the rule of “planned obsolescence”, but in this case, it’s the humans that TPTB teach and indoctrinate in such a manner that they (we) are pretty much designed to not work very well or very optimally.

The way we teach and think must be definitely changed and revolutionized if we are to have any real lasting civilization filled with critical, creative, disciplined thinkers. This is what we should have and, I feel, most definitely can have if we simply move in this direction educationally.

Creating a new system of justice that follows the principles of the rule of law with sound judgement that doesn't adhere to strict, "by the book", enforcement, but rather treats each case on an individual basis.

I think a case by case assessment is a good way to go, but I also think that a strict, by the book adherence should be the foundation upon which the case by case scenarios are assessed, and a strict, by the book methodology wouldn’t be a bad thing if the book itself is restructured to account for different possible scenarios.

A big reason why we're up shit creek without a paddle is precisely because of the massive failures of the justice system.

Correct. This is a big reason why I prefer a strict, by the book modus operandi because I wouldn’t want any wiggle room for criminals to be able to get away with what they do, as is the case today - and by criminals, I not only mean poor shop lifters and inner city ruffians, but also (if not especially) multimillionaire and multibillionaire corporacrats, unscrupulous politicians, etc.

Dissembling the philosophy of the mechanical view of the universe, where in people see themselves more like a product coming out of a biological factory rather than an expression of nature, no different than the animals, the plants, and the stars in the sky.

Sheesh, nowww you’re talking MY language. This is part of what I was thinking about above with regard to a restructuring of our educational paradigm. It definitely includes this type of teaching.

A major reason why people are so easily manipulated is because most everyone carries around a profound emptiness inside of themselves because they truly have no idea what they're surviving for, so everyone is desperate to cling to any kind of meaning they can give themselves.

Agreed. Very much so. There is much we do not know about how the universe really works, and there is much research that has been done that strongly challenges the very limited, mechanistic view of existence we for the most part have. Studies toward this end should be encouraged, and the results released and incorporated into the public consciousness. We as a people would improve greatly as our real understanding of the grandiosity of the world and the universe around us grows and improves as well.

Creating a more comfortable style living has become in of itself a reason to live, and so people now value themselves and other people on material possessions or holding titles of prestige. Once people can surrender the need to be better than everyone else and realize that we're all in this together, the sooner we can put our heads together and say "ok, how do we fix this for good?"

I agree, but I feel that it’s about even more than just our realizing that we’re all in this together that we will grow. I think once we are taught the real truth of cosmic interconnectedness - not just physically, but mentally, psionically, dimensionally, etc - then it will be very difficult for people to not understand that even though we are all individuals w/our own thoughts and feelings, we are also very much all part of ONE cosmic field/energy/being/reality.

The imbuing and internalizing of this kind of understanding can lead to nothing but good, I feel.

E) Reinventing public education

Everything you said in this point, as you may already have guessed, I fully agree with.

We’re definitely on the same page in this area.

Basic needs of survival should always be met; food, water, shelter, and security should be guaranteed, otherwise we have no business bringing more people into this world

Agreed. This is part of where proper education comes in. If we teach the kids early about the values of comporting oneself similarly to how you described in your point “F)”, they would go a long way toward getting a pretty significant head start that would already begin solving a lot of the issues that the adults in our society currently perpetrate. Why? Well, because most of us adults are little more than small children that have just grown up with the negative schooling and indoctrination we grew up with and we haven’t really been able to break out of it.

All that said, I cannot agree more with what you stated here:

it should be criminal to bring someone into this life without the intention to look after their well being into the future

Full agreement w/that sentiment. That in mind, I feel that along with proper sex education for the young in this society, there should indeed be a system of much more advanced contraception and birth control than is currently the case. The number of unwanted human beings on this planet only exacerbates the problems that already exist. Those who are already here are in fact here, and we should do our best to elevate the lives of all those already on the planet. However, a system should be in place that, again, does away with the absolutely staggering number of unwanted pregnancies and children being born in this world.

do anything and everything that follows the idea of bringing people together in healthy and peaceful ways that encourage them to talk, and to share and to love.

Very much agreed. Yes.

If people are solely dependent on themselves for their needs, they won't need to be dependent on the government or corporations, and thereby those entities simply become obsolete.

This is where community comes in, like you said. If the local community is together in their efforts to make themselves better, then their dependence on a massive, corporate structure is not as great - if it exists at all.

This brings to mind some of the ideas of Jacque Fresco.

When we build, we shouldn't destroy the ecosystem, driving out the wildlife and paving over the greenery. Who wants to live in a grey world anyway? Buildings should be encouraged to be colorful and local artists can be commissioned to paint murals. I always had an idea that shopping malls should have live trees growing inside and allow birds to nest and fly around. I don't have much in the way of detail for that idea, but perhaps it can be a hybrid indoor/outdoor facility and have it built in a way that it doesn't require a lot of maintenance and allows nature to clean up after itself.

I just read this after the Jacque Fresco link I referenced above, and realize that I was indeed correct in referencing it, as the sensibilities you speak of here seem similar to some of what Fresco talks about - and that I myself am very much in accord with.

In a nutshell, you could say that when you want to build a house on a hill, you don't flatten the hill then build on top of it; you build with the hillside.

This reminds me a bit of the idea and concept/philosophy behind Earthship homes.

1, 2, 3, 4

If we can merge modern technology and innovations with tried and true techniques that humans have used forever, we can reach a point where people's lives become a lot more simple, a lot more healthy and a lot more happy.

This indeed is exactly the philosophy behind Earthship homes.

H) People have the right to be left alone.

This seems reasonable so long as, as you said, no one infringes upon anyone else.

I typed out a nice big response and reddit tells me it's too long, even after cutting it down significantly -_-

I have it saved on a text document, so if you have another preferred way of sending it along I'll be glad to.

Ha. Don't worry. That's happened to me on various occasions. This is what you do when that happens:

Don't edit and cut down your one long response. Take it instead and simply break it apart into two (or three, or however many) separate responses.

The first part of the response you title "1" or "Part A" or whatever, and the second response, you title "2" or "Part B" or whatever.

Simple. :)

Send it all that way. In pieces. Cheers,

Alright let's give it a shot, this will be the first part.

…but we have to realize that this nation was also founded upon the maiming and raping and killing, the genociding and pillaging and the enslaving of whole groups of people.

Pretty much all of human history is founded on the bodies of countless innocent people, however I thought it would be rather self evident that there is literally zero cause to back track on the progress we've already made in terms of equal rights and liberty for all people. When I say "traditional American values", I'm referring to things like having a sense of honor and duty to one's home and family, respect for your fellow citizens, respect to the constitution (in it's most recent form), a passion for protecting our rights and liberty at any cost, and keeping the rebellious spirit of self determination alive.

Well, we do this by engaging the community and encouraging participation from the members of the group. We are all in this together. We all have to work. We will all reap the benefits and will be rewarded for that work.

Agreed. I suppose all one can do is stay the course and encourage more people to join in and see for themselves it's the real deal. From there word will spread.

The way we teach and think must be definitely changed and revolutionized if we are to have any real lasting civilization filled with critical, creative, disciplined thinkers. This is what we should have and, I feel, most definitely can have if we simply move in this direction educationally.

Absolutely, and probably most important of all, we need to teach future generations how to even build civilizations in the first place. These things don't just happen, and all through history empires and nations rise and fall, and if one day nobody knows how to rebuild, then there is no civilization anymore. At least not one we would recognize today. Think a few hundred, even a few thousand years in the future. What and who will be left? What will stand on our foundations? Education would need to direct the future generations in the right direction and give them the tools they need to create something better than what we leave behind.

I think a case by case assessment is a good way to go, but I also think that a strict, by the book adherence should be the foundation upon which the case by case scenarios are assessed, and a strict, by the book methodology wouldn’t be a bad thing if the book itself is restructured to account for different possible scenarios.

Correct, and as you say in your following comment, we would want to make sure nobody can slip through the cracks. Hence why judging on a case by case basis is important, as well as equal protection under the law. Once you've been convicted, a billionaire gets the same punishment for the same crime that a poor person would, no exceptions. But at the same time, you don't want to be locking up or punishing otherwise decent people that just made a stupid decision. The judge and jury will need to look at the severity of the crime itself and then decide the persons intent, whether there was malice involved, and if this person is liable to act again or has a history of doing such things. You wouldn't want to charge some dumb kid the same way you would a hardened career criminal. There's ways to teach someone a lesson without completely destroying them.

there is much we do not know about how the universe really works, and there is much research that has been done that strongly challenges the very limited, mechanistic view of existence we for the most part have. Studies toward this end should be encouraged, and the results released and incorporated into the public consciousness. We as a people would improve greatly as our real understanding of the grandiosity of the world and the universe around us grows and improves as well.

Precisely. I feel if we are able to in the future, another big focus should be expanding into space because that is absolutely humanity's destiny. Once humans can shift their eyes from the dirt and take on a more cosmic perspective, things will really start to kick into high gear. If there's one thing that makes humans as a whole tingle with excitement, it's the idea of colonizing other planets and becoming a space faring species. With all the money we waste every year on our military, we could have already had colonies on the moon and Mars. We could have already had massive space stations and star ships. We would be absolutely captivated with the thought of what awaits us in the next star system and the infinity of the possibilities of where we could go. The final frontier still patiently awaits our arrival.

I think once we are taught the real truth of cosmic interconnectedness - not just physically, but mentally, psionically, dimensionally, etc - then it will be very difficult for people to not understand that even though we are all individuals w/our own thoughts and feelings, we are also very much all part of ONE cosmic field/energy/being/reality.

Bingo. Everything is one, and that's all there is to it. Most people operate under the theory of the "big bang", and that in itself confirms the idea that all is one it's most basic form. First there was nothing, then there was something. We are that something. That divine spark that somehow, someway, came into being from the vast emptiness of the universe. It's profound really, and I wish more people realized that.

most of us adults are little more than small children that have just grown up with the negative schooling and indoctrination we grew up with and we haven’t really been able to break out of it.

Right on. One of the things kids should be taught at an early age, just like there is no such thing as Santa or the tooth fairy, there's no such thing as adults; only big kids. A major problem with the model we have today where kids are taught that there is this big difference between being their age and being someone older, is that they grow up with almost a divine perspective on adults. They end up seeing their elders almost like gods, and this creates a situation where they see them as people that they can never be, so when they do inevitably grow up, they underestimate themselves and believe they'll never be as good as those who came before them. This is not to say there shouldn't be a respect and a reverence for ones elders, but children should be strongly encouraged to do better than their parents, and inspire them to go into the future and create a better world for their own kids they'll have one day.

Second part here:

I feel that along with proper sex education for the young in this society, there should indeed be a system of much more advanced contraception and birth control than is currently the case. The number of unwanted human beings on this planet only exacerbates the problems that already exist. Those who are already here are in fact here, and we should do our best to elevate the lives of all those already on the planet. However, a system should be in place that, again, does away with the absolutely staggering number of unwanted pregnancies and children being born in this world.

I partially agree with you on this one, though for the most part I think we're on the same page. While I do agree that proper sex education is very important, I also believe that contraception needs to be seen in a more humble way. I know you didn't mention this, but in my opinion I feel that if someone ends up with an unwanted or unplanned pregnancy, instead of just aborting it or going for the plan B pill, the community should rally around that new mother and support the new family. It should be cause for celebration really, bringing a child into the world should be a joyous occasion. We waste so many resources from food to money, that we could easily subsidize these people from all that unnecessary waste so they don't have to make the horrible decision of whether they want to get rid of their child or drastically change their style of living, and thereby possibly screw that child by giving them a shitty life. It would be much more humane to have programs that support new mothers, rather than encouraging them to just get rid of their kid. But also other less invasive forms of contraception, such as condoms and the pill, as well as good sex education would go a long way in preventing those kinds of situations in the first place. I do feel that in the end, it is indeed the woman's choice what she wants to do, but nobody should have to make a decision about their child's life because of financial troubles. So basically, non-invasive contraception along with good education will decrease the number of unwanted children, and then community programs that help out new mothers and support under privileged families will go a long way in solving the crisis. I should also touch on the topic of orphans, who as you mentioned, are already here and much more in need of our attention. Another part of sex education can be to encourage more people to adopt rather than have their own kid, so they can make a conscious decision to bring the child into their family and it can be on their terms when they're ready for that responsibility, rather than just saying "oops, we fucked up and now we're obliged to take care of this kid we created by accident". Likewise the whole foster care system needs a MAJOR overhaul because it is really, really messed up. There needs to be contingencies for the kids that don't get adopted, there needs to be safeguards against giving kids to abusive parents, and the foster homes themselves need to funded and have serious oversight.

This reminds me a bit of the idea and concept/philosophy behind Earthship homes.

I'm glad you mentioned that! I've known about Earthships for a long time, but after doing all the research, I never thought anything of it other than it'd be a nice idea if I ever had the resources to do it. Earthships weren't exactly my inspiration for what I wrote, but it definitely was part of what got me interested in the whole concept of building with nature rather than against it. It just always seemed like common sense to me, my father would always tell me when we would build things "never force anything, or you'll break it", and that philosophy stuck with me. I'm also going to watch that documentary about Jacque Fresco later tonight, I've never heard of him before and it sounds interesting!

I feel that if someone ends up with an unwanted or unplanned pregnancy, instead of just aborting it or going for the plan B pill, the community should rally around that new mother and support the new family.

I feel this is valid on one level, but I also know that there are a LOOOOT of people (whether adults or kids) that get pregnant and have absolutely zero desire to be a parent…and I think that’s okay. One shouldn’t have to be a parent if they don’t want to, or be forced to be one just because they had sex. I personally think that sex shouldn’t happen until one is more ready for it and more of a responsible adult, but the fact of the matter is that it’s likely going to happen left and right anyway regardless of how old a person is. That in mind, I don’t think that those who engage in intercourse should be forced to have to have a kid if they either don’t want to or are simply WAY not ready for such a life long responsibility.

I think children are way to important to just have on a whim regardless of whether they can be properly taken cared of or not.

Even if there is an extended community that could raise the kid, I’ve actually done enough research on the dynamic of adopted/abandoned children to know that there is simply no replacing the birth mother for a newborn, and separating a child from their birth mother ultimately does great, great damage to the mind/heart of the infant/toddler/child/teenager/adult.

For this reason, I personally feel that while an extended family would be great and it’s something I personally do advocate for, I also even more strongly advocate for the birth parent/mother to be able to raise the child…and if this can’t happen or if the mother is unfit to be a mother? then I’m all for simply NOT having the kid at all.

Might sound harsh, but I feel what’s even harsher is how many traumatized human beings come into this very difficult world and live an absolutely nightmarish, often extremely criminal life because they were unintended, never wanted, and uncared for if not completely abandoned their whole life as a result.

Far, far better to simply not have been born rather than live that nightmarish life as far as I’m concerned.

It should be cause for celebration really, bringing a child into the world should be a joyous occasion.

It’s not joyous if you hate children, are a crack head prostitute, were simply turning tricks in the corner, and just happened to get pregnant from one of the many dons you fucked.

It’s not joyous if you got pregnant because you were gang raped by a dozen monsters dudes.

It’s not joyous if you’re an undisciplined person who has zero interest in ever having kids, but who goes out and sleeps around and ends up pregnant accidentally anyway.

It’s not joyous if you got married, got pregnant, but then your husband cheated on you and then you’re suddenly hating life and you take to the bottle or whatever.

It’s not joyous if…

You get the idea (hopefully).

The birth of a child should be a cause for celebration. Yes. The fact of the matter, however, is that on MAAAANY occasions on this planet, in this civilization, it very much isn’t a cause for any type of celebration. It seems it’s often a cause for worry and consternation.

We waste so many resources from food to money, that we could easily subsidize these people from all that unnecessary waste so they don't have to make the horrible decision of whether they want to get rid of their child or drastically change their style of living, and thereby possibly screw that child by giving them a shitty life.

I agree - but what about the people who never wanted a child in the first place, but ended up getting pregnant accidentally regardless? Should they be forced to spend the next 18 plus years of their life having to take care of a child they didn’t want in the first place? It’s easy to say “Well, you just shouldn’t have had sex then!” but that’s simply not a good response given that sex is gonna happen anyway in this world. That’s just the way it is. It’s what just happens/what people do - often unfortunately, but it’s the case nonetheless.

I feel only the most worthy individuals should be fit to be parents - and I say this as someone who A) really wanted kids, but B) doesn’t have any, and (I can pretty much say at this point) won’t ultimately ever have kids because I’m responsible enough to realize that the circumstances under which I’m living aren’t worthy of bringing a child into it.

Don’t think that my stance on preventing unwanted pregnancies comes from any sort of nihilistic perspective or negative approach or anything like that. It’s quite the opposite actually. I think children are amongst the most important things I can think of. That’s the very reason why I don’t want them to be brought into this world under anything less than the best circumstances, and why I do actually advocate people simply NOT have kids under almost any circumstances around but the absolute most ideal ones. If your’e not living in good or ideal circumstances, then don’t have kids. Period. Just my perspective, of course.

It would be much more humane to have programs that support new mothers, rather than encouraging them to just get rid of their kid.

I think it would be more human FOR THE PLANET to encourage people to not breed and overpopulate the planet like a virus. I think it’d be better for the human population in general if the people that were in it were here because they were WANTED and not because they were unintended or unwanted accidents that now “have to be tolerated”.

But also other less invasive forms of contraception, such as condoms and the pill, as well as good sex education would go a long way in preventing those kinds of situations in the first place.

I wouldn’t disagree with that.

I do feel that in the end, it is indeed the woman's choice what she wants to do, but nobody should have to make a decision about their child's life because of financial troubles.

I agree with that as well. It would be a bad situation if you have a couple that would otherwise be good parents, but that simply can’t afford it, so they don’t go through with a pregnancy because they realize they’re just too broke. Financial troubles shouldn’t necessarily be the deciding factor.

So basically, non-invasive contraception along with good education will decrease the number of unwanted children, and then community programs that help out new mothers and support under privileged families will go a long way in solving the crisis.

I think this is a good idea, but I would definitely add a strong abortion program also that doesn’t make people feel ashamed for NOT wanting to go through with unwanted pregnancies and having unwanted kids.

I should also touch on the topic of orphans, who as you mentioned, are already here and much more in need of our attention.

I know all about this. My girlfriend of over twelve years (practically my wife at this point) is an orphan…and she did noooot handle being abandoned as an infant well. At all. There’s a lot the public doesn’t know about how badly affected are children that are abandoned by their birth mothers. It’s extremely traumatizing.

And I’m very much including people who are abandoned but who were then immediately adopted by a loving adoptive family (as was the case w/my gf). Even these children will feel abandoned and empty and will have extreme abandonment traumas that will adversely affect them throughout their entire lives.

That being said, I still wouldn’t disagree w/your following statement:

Another part of sex education can be to encourage more people to adopt rather than have their own kid

Yes. Agreed.

so they can make a conscious decision to bring the child into their family and it can be on their terms when they're ready for that responsibility, rather than just saying "oops, we fucked up and now we're obliged to take care of this kid we created by accident".

Exactly this. Agreed.

Likewise the whole foster care system needs a MAJOR overhaul because it is really, really messed up.

Again, very much agreed.

Thanks for the conversation! Very engaging and inspiring.

Namaste,

Pretty much all of human history is founded on the bodies of countless innocent people

It certainly doesn’t make it any more right that America did it over and over to others, however.

I thought it would be rather self evident that there is literally zero cause to back track on the progress we've already made in terms of equal rights and liberty for all people.

There’s zero cause to backtrack on the progress. Correct. However, the progress has been nowhere near as significant as it in fact should be, and there is ultimately very little real equality in this nation between whites and non-whites. The documentary in this OP is extremely relevant to this topic.

When I say "traditional American values", I'm referring to things like having a sense of honor and duty to one's home and family, respect for your fellow citizens, respect to the constitution (in it's most recent form), a passion for protecting our rights and liberty at any cost, and keeping the rebellious spirit of self determination alive.

I, of course, very much agree with this. I was just stating that when applying the actual practice of the words in that statement to, say, America, one becomes aware of some very serious inconsistencies that should not be overlooked in any way.

I suppose all one can do is stay the course and encourage more people to join in and see for themselves it's the real deal. From there word will spread.

Yes. Agreed. The difficult part with this is the fact that TPTB will make sure and vilify those trying to live by the very precepts you outlined here. That’s the rub, and that’s what we have to fight against - the opposition we would face.

we need to teach future generations how to even build civilizations in the first place.

I would imagine this could be included in the educational curriculum that would be disseminated amongst the society. Yes.

Education would need to direct the future generations in the right direction and give them the tools they need to create something better than what we leave behind.

Exactly this, sir.

Once you've been convicted, a billionaire gets the same punishment for the same crime that a poor person would

Correct.

at the same time, you don't want to be locking up or punishing otherwise decent people that just made a stupid decision.

Perhaps it would depend upon what that stupid decision is, however. Not all stupid decisions are equal, of course. Some stupid decisions result in a store owner being out of a bag of chips and a soda. That should be punished, but the person making that stupid decision shouldn’t necessarily get the veritable book thrown at them.

Other stupid decisions, however, result in the store owner ending up dead. That shouldn’t as easily be excused and just let go regardless of whether the person at fault had no previous issues or not.

Stupid decision or not, there must definitely be consequences for our actions.

The judge and jury will need to look at the severity of the crime itself and then decide the persons intent, whether there was malice involved, and if this person is liable to act again or has a history of doing such things. You wouldn't want to charge some dumb kid the same way you would a hardened career criminal. There's ways to teach someone a lesson without completely destroying them.

Yeah. We’re definitely saying the same thing. Correct and agreed.

I feel if we are able to in the future, another big focus should be expanding into space because that is absolutely humanity's destiny.

There is a significant amount of evidence that humanity has had an active space program in operation since about as far back as the 1930s and during Harry Truman’s presidency.

Where would they get all the money for that, you might ask?

Well…1, 2

It’s also said that there is currently a settled base of human operations on the planet Mars - a base that needs military protection from the various other Martian natives already living on the planet. Go wrap your head around that one as well.

Sounds beyond science fiction - I know - but the fact of the matter is that there are U.S. military personnel that have come out and testified and sworn that such is in fact the case. Look into Marine Captain Randy Cramer for more information in this area.

Once humans can shift their eyes from the dirt and take on a more cosmic perspective, things will really start to kick into high gear.

I would say that it’s deeper than even that. Once the rest of the 99% can be let in on the fact that we’ve been out in space for many long decades ALREADY, then we can start to kick into high gear.

It’s said that there’s a breakaway civilization in place that’s been covertly sucking the life’s blood of the current mainstream civilization for many decades now. The people of the planet Earth have to be informed about the existence of this secret cabal because this parasitic influence is currently killing the host while benefiting from technologies that the average citizen knows absolutely nothing about and doesn’t benefit from at all. These are technologies that are said to be far more advanced than anything we’re aware of currently on the planet.

If there's one thing that makes humans as a whole tingle with excitement, it's the idea of colonizing other planets and becoming a space faring species.

And if there’s anything that should fill all of us with the most indignation and cause all of us to really, finally get up and come together and fight against this covert, oppressive elite above us, it’s the fact that there is information that exists strongly indicating that this oppressive elite have been benefitting from technologies that could make literally any ailment and disease we have simply go away. This entire civilization is a farce and could be turned around and made into a veritable utopia if technologies that are already said to be very much existence were allowed to be released to everyone.

With all the money we waste every year on our military, we could have already had colonies on the moon and Mars. We could have already had massive space stations and star ships.

As I’ve mentioned in the past few paragraphs so far here…we do. Very much so. Reality is a bit stranger than fiction at this point.

The final frontier still patiently awaits our arrival.

The final frontier’s been here for a long time already. We’ve just been kept in the dark about it for decades now.

Everything is one, and that's all there is to it.

This is correct. 100%.

there's no such thing as adults; only big kids.

I think to a large extent, this is very true. I think there are a few actual adults on the planet - yes - but I also very much agree with what you’re saying here. Definitely.

A major problem with the model we have today where kids are taught that there is this big difference between being their age and being someone older, is that they grow up with almost a divine perspective on adults.

Very good point. The rest of what you said in this first section, I couldn’t agree with more. Very well-said, sir.

It certainly doesn’t make it any more right that America did it over and over to others, however.

Certainly not, but you could say the same for just about every nation in existence. The past is the past, nobody alive today is responsible for the conquest of the Americas and the ensuing genocide. The best we can do is try to set things right, and create the world it should've been from the start.

There’s zero cause to backtrack on the progress. Correct. However, the progress has been nowhere near as significant as it in fact should be, and there is ultimately very little real equality in this nation between whites and non-whites.

In some respects yes, but I feel this in part because many of the people that were alive when segregation was still a thing and non-whites were seen as less than human, are still alive today. And some of those people even hold positions of authority, so racist ideology is very much still a part of the immediate human consciousness and gets passed down through the generations by these same people. Also keep in mind that racism happens between white people too, think of the Irish, the Italians or the Polish for example; they were white and were still treated as second class citizens when they came to the U.S. However I think ending legal slavery (except for convict labor, which is the big loophole in that) and the success of the civil rights movement definitely can be considered a big step in the right direction. People just need to keep going down that road and keep making progress. Hatred isn't something that can easily be forgotten and just dropped on a whim. Racism is extremely stupid, but think of someone you hated and how difficult it was or maybe still is to forgive them and move on. I'll even use a historical example, would you be friends with Hitler? Could you see yourself telling him it's all ok and now we can just love each other as humans forever? I know it's a big jump from a genocidal maniac to your average non-white, but that's the kind of boiling hatred a racist person feels towards someone "not like them". They see them as less than human and in their eyes, why should they be nice to them all of a sudden? Again, not defending them for being racist, just trying to show that human emotion is strong and many times overrides logical thinking to a fault.

The difficult part with this is the fact that TPTB will make sure and vilify those trying to live by the very precepts you outlined here.

That's where the war of information comes into play, producing independent media to counter their propaganda. The truth is the truth, and like I said, the truth and ideas are bulletproof.

There is a significant amount of evidence that humanity has had an active space program in operation since about as far back as the 1930s and during Harry Truman’s presidency.

I've heard things about that and everything you mentioned following that statement, but I never looked too far into it for a couple of reasons. One being it's a deep rabbit hole and I'd have to make time to sift through everything and see what's plausible and what's not, and second that I'd simply have nobody to discuss it with unless I want to look like I'm totally off my rocker. I wouldn't find it too hard to believe that we have a secret space program and all that, I mean it would honestly be the only other thing I could think of that the government would want to keep classified other than military stuff and things having to do with their geopolitical strategy that could effect diplomatic relations if it became public.

One shouldn’t have to be a parent if they don’t want to, or be forced to be one just because they had sex...but the fact of the matter is that it’s likely going to happen left and right anyway regardless of how old a person is.

That last statement is precisely my point. People shouldn't feel pressured to make a decision one way or another. There should be programs available to help the parent(s) 100% with whatever it is they decide to do, whether they decide to keep their child, put it up for adoption, or abort it.

It’s not joyous if…

Yes, yes, all terrible situations that definitely happen in real life and typically result in abortion anyway. Rape victims, prostitutes, drug addicts, etc., that's what abortions are there for first and foremost. It's a last resort. But someone who's husband cheated on them after they're already pregnant? Some promiscuous woman who accidentally got knocked up? Those people just need help. I mean sure, if they really want to go all in and just abort the kid, that's their call. But my point is that it's really not necessary and if they truly want to have the kid and be happy, the community should support them all the way and help them be successful parents. Those kids end up with shit lives under normal circumstances because nobody cares. The parents suck at being parents and nobody in the community is there to guide them or the kid. Maybe if they're lucky a friend or a relative or a teacher will help them out in some way, but for the vast majority of people, they face a cold world who's only word of guidance is, "you're on your own". Think for example, of those high school kids who end up parents, you know maybe both the father and the mother actually love each other and even though it was an accident, they still want the kid. Of course they're going to be terrible parents because they're still kids themselves, but with a little help, it could actually turn out really well for everyone. People have so much anxiety about having kids usually because of money, their living situation, fear that their own abilities aren't up to par, and the total lack of support from their family and/or community. If everyone knew that no matter what, whether they wanted the kid or not, they'd have all the support they could possibly need, it wouldn't be such a stressful situation. And like I said before, non-invasive contraception and proper sex education would go a long way in making sure unwanted pregnancies don't happen in the first place. After that it's just a matter of what to do when those situations do in fact arise, and I feel society's default response of "Fuck you, should've kept your legs closed", is just absolutely unacceptable.

I feel only the most worthy individuals should be fit to be parents

If you want to go that route, I'd say read the book "Starship Troopers" by Robert A. Heinlein. In the political system the book describes, people are divided into civilians and citizens, and the right to have children is a right reserved for citizens who have either passed stringent qualifications to earn a license to birth, or did some kind of federal service. Not necessarily military service, but you had to serve the collective in some capacity to prove you were worthy to be considered an actual citizen. Anyone who wants to serve is guaranteed a place somewhere, and that service guarantees citizenship. Granted the book is science fiction and revolves around an interstellar war between humanity and a race of giant arachnids, however Heinlein wrote a lot about politics and moral philosophy that was particularly fascinating. Don't bother with the movie though. It was pretty cheezy IMO and had almost nothing to do with the actual content of the book beyond the war with the bugs. Now with all that being said, I myself can't necessarily say I'd support such a system just because it's so out there and I know not a lot of people, myself included, wouldn't be too happy about being told I can't make my own decision to have kids.

And I’m very much including people who are abandoned but who were then immediately adopted by a loving adoptive family (as was the case w/my gf). Even these children will feel abandoned and empty and will have extreme abandonment traumas that will adversely affect them throughout their entire lives.

I have a close friend with exact same circumstances. Adopted by a very loving family, has everything he could ever ask for, but still has major issues. Been arrested multiple times, lots of drug and alcohol abuse, anger issues, etc. Usually comes off as a pretty normal guy, but you spend more time with him and you realize his door is off the hinges a little bit. I still hang out with him though, it's not really out of the ordinary for me to be friends with people who themselves are a little out of the ordinary. I tend to champion the underdogs since I know what it's like to be one myself.

Always a pleasure to meet a like minded soul. Cheers!

My response is too long, so I have to break it down into two separate pieces.

PART ONE

you could say the same for just about every nation in existence.

Agreed. Definitely. However, and again, the fact that America did this should temper any overt enthusiasm toward how great the founding of this country was.

It wasn’t great to a lot of people.

nobody alive today is responsible for the conquest of the Americas and the ensuing genocide.

Correct, but many alive today are indeed responsible for the continuation and perpetuation of the racism and ills that were born from that earlier time.

The best we can do is try to set things right, and create the world it should've been from the start.

I 100% agree with this. This is made all the more difficult, however, when there are unfortunately individuals who still perpetuate the closed type of thinking that makes the earlier crimes of bygone eras still very much alive today.

I feel this in part because many of the people that were alive when segregation was still a thing and non-whites were seen as less than human, are still alive today.

I think it’s unfortunately stronger than that. I think it’s not just because some of those same racists are alive today. It’s because the ideas and the teachings and internal indoctrination of some of those racists continues on today - alive (if covertly) in school books and societal ideals - and continues to influence new generations of people. In that way, the racism and negative indoctrination continues.

And some of those people even hold positions of authority, so racist ideology is very much still a part of the immediate human consciousness and gets passed down through the generations by these same people.

Exactly this. We are again saying the very same thing. What this means is that even though the old racists of bygone eras may no longer be around, the idea that today’s a new day and that we shouldn’t think too much about racism because it doesn’t really exist any more doesn’t hold up to a close, critical observation of the society we live in today. Though the old racists themselves may be dead, their ideas and influence continues on to this day and indoctrinates a new generation of possibly racist law makers, politicians, and other figures of authority.

Also keep in mind that racism happens between white people too, think of the Irish, the Italians or the Polish for example; they were white and were still treated as second class citizens when they came to the U.S.

Definitely. When I say racism, I’m not just referring to white against black/European against African racism. I’m referring to all kinds of racism regardless of what race. I understand that the white against black kind is amongst the worst, especially in this country - yes - but all kinds need to be done away with ultimately.

I think ending legal slavery (except for convict labor, which is the big loophole in that) and the success of the civil rights movement definitely can be considered a big step in the right direction.

I wouldn’t disagree with that. Yes.

People just need to keep going down that road and keep making progress.

Yes. Correct and agreed.

Racism is extremely stupid, but think of someone you hated and how difficult it was or maybe still is to forgive them and move on. I'll even use a historical example, would you be friends with Hitler?

Not sure if I’m the best example of this because even though I can be pretty vitriolic sometimes, I can’t really think of someone that I ”hate” pe se. Additionally, I can be pretty much cordial to really anyone who’s respectful and cordial to me. If Hitler were respectful and cordial to me, then I would be respectful and cordial to him. If Mother Teressa (one of my favorite people) were to be an asshole to me, I might just say “Could you like…stop being an asshole to me already?”

I do understand your ultimately point though that it’s not easy to just turn the other cheek and forgive people. I’m not some bag o’ sunshine that can just forgive and forget anyone very easily (if at all).

Could you see yourself telling him it's all ok and now we can just love each other as humans forever?

Well, to me, love also greatly includes responsibility and accountability. As such, I can love you, but if you did something very wrong, then I’m 100% okay with you having to suffer the consequences of your misdeeds.

I absolutely looooove my two little nieces - to an extent that actually surprises me. They’ve still cried because I didn’t let them do this or that, however, and their crying didn’t keep me from still not letting them do it.

For me, included in love is discipline, and if you’re not a disciplined person who treats others with respect, then you’re not really showing proper love.

All this is to say that I can love Hitler and still send him to prison or to the guillotine. :)

And by the way (as a side note here), Hitler was merely a puppet - only a symbol, a representative. He’s not the main person really responsible for everything he’s accused of doing. He was a representative sidepiece controlled by the figures that covertly were really responsible for everything history and the MSM blames on him. This isn’t to say that Hitler was faultless. Of course not. The dude was crazy enough to let himself be the overt spokesperson for these covert evil factions - so fuck him too - but, to be sure, the real figures to blame for everything we put on Hitler are multinational corporatists types that worked behind the scenes. Watch this documentary for more information on that.

not defending them for being racist, just trying to show that human emotion is strong and many times overrides logical thinking to a fault.

I agree. This is part of the reason why re-educating the masses is such a difficult undertaking - especially when there are so many influences covertly (and overtly sometimes) pushing people toward separation and toward doing the wrong things to one another.

Again, TPTB incite and foment that type of separatist thinking. It works better for them and helps keep them in power while the masses remain dumb and divided.

That's where the war of information comes into play, producing independent media to counter their propaganda. The truth is the truth, and like I said, the truth and ideas are bulletproof.

Agreed, but there must be a very consistent and steadfast move toward continuing to push the truth forward because there is an absolutely massive, gargantuan blanket of propaganda on this planet against that truth, and there are what are called “shills” running amok left and right in forum after forum (not the least this very one) pushing away the truth and vilifying anyone who tries to move it forward.

Producing independent media to counter their propaganda is absolutely needed - you’re right - but we must realize their propaganda is pretty ubiquitous and all pervasive, so we must know what we’re up against and not be under any illusions that spreading the truth will be easy.

it's a deep rabbit hole and I'd have to make time to sift through everything and see what's plausible and what's not

Yeah. You’re right. It’s pretty time consuming, and there are a LOOOT of dead ends and disinformation campaigns to confuse things even more. Very difficult to sift the wheat from the chaff in this area.

PART TWO

I'd simply have nobody to discuss it with unless I want to look like I'm totally off my rocker.

Yeah. Me either. I have my gf - who’s ultimately a pretty captive audience (lol), but A) she pretty much thinks I’m off my rocker anyway, and B) she’s not really very interested in the subject, so it’s not like I have an “active” person to talk about these issues and go back and forth on ideas with, which would be cool if I did. I’ve had a pretty active interest in the subject of ETs as of the past few years now because I had experiences when I was young that were rather anomalous, and the more I looked into the issue, the more I started discovering a global coverup that links to a lot of other sociopolitical issues as well.

There should be programs available to help the parent(s) 100% with whatever it is they decide to do, whether they decide to keep their child, put it up for adoption, or abort it.

Cannot agree more with you here.

Some promiscuous woman who accidentally got knocked up? Those people just need help.

Absolutely. I agree. However, if those type of people really weren’t intending on having kids or don’t want kids but accidentally got pregnant anyway, then it just seems like a pretty horrible situation to bring a child into the world under those types of circumstances. The child is not wanted under those circumstances, and to put an infant through a situation where they’re not wanted is just…argh. It’s really horrendous as far as I’m concerned - nearly unconscionable.

if they truly want to have the kid and be happy, the community should support them all the way and help them be successful parents.

I mostly agree with that. I mean if someone wants to have a kid, then there should indeed be programs available to help them. Yes. However, I also think that there are a lot of people who want to have kids…who maybe really shouldn’t have kids because they’re not ready or fit for it for some reason or the other regardless of whether they want to or not.

Like, for example, if it’s a young, unwed, teenage girl w/little education and she really wants a kid? I still think she shouldn’t have a kid.

If she goes to school, gets married, has a good husband, they’re both adjusted and settled, and then she wants a kid? Then hell yeah. Have one if you want to under those circumstances.

I think it should ultimately be about what’s going to work for the child. Seems to me too many people make the decision to have a kid based on what they want, when in fact what should really be given the top most consideration is whether or not it will be a good environment or good circumstance under which to bring a child into in the first place.

I feel that parenthood - and the consideration of going into it or not - is supposed to be a very unselfish undertaking: It’s not about you. It’s about them - the kid(s) - and I think too many people think too much about themselves first and what they want as opposed to the life of that unborn child and the kind of world that the child would be being brought into.

Those kids end up with shit lives under normal circumstances because nobody cares.

Exactly this, sir. This is the very reason why, as much as I love children, I don’t think they should be brought into a world under anything less than optimal circumstances. Heck, it’s because I love children that I feel this way.

The parents suck at being parents and nobody in the community is there to guide them or the kid. Maybe if they're lucky a friend or a relative or a teacher will help them out in some way, but for the vast majority of people, they face a cold world who's only word of guidance is, "you're on your own".

Agreed fully.

If everyone knew that no matter what, whether they wanted the kid or not, they'd have all the support they could possibly need, it wouldn't be such a stressful situation.

Not a bad point.

"Starship Troopers" by Robert A. Heinlein.

I realized that my saying “only the most worthy individuals should be fit to be parents” brings in the idea of a dictatorially controlled system where “only the state dictates who does and does not breed, citizen! Eugenics for everyone!”

Yeah. I certainly don’t mean that. Heck, what you and I have been talking about this whole time has dealt with just how bad and untrustworthy the state is in the first place. Last thing we want to do is give them the power to decide who does and does not breed.

However, at the same time, I don’t think that the rampant breeding that is the case now in today’s world is the answer either. By far.

Don't bother with the movie though. It was pretty cheezy IMO and had almost nothing to do with the actual content of the book beyond the war with the bugs.

Yeah. When you first mentioned the book, I was thinking “Is that the same as the movie?” I saw the movie way back when, and it was nothing like what you just described here. lol I just remember it as a cheesy, campy, not very good sci-fi flick.

I have a close friend with exact same circumstances. Adopted by a very loving family, has everything he could ever ask for, but still has major issues.

Introduce him to this book right here.

Do it.

It has all but revolutionized my girlfriend’s perspective and has helped her (and us) a great deal. We were already evolving and making progress, etc before she purchased the book, but her having purchased and read that book - and our sitting down and talking at length about it many times - has helped her a great deal in understanding why she is/was the way she is.

Been arrested multiple times, lots of drug and alcohol abuse, anger issues, etc. Usually comes off as a pretty normal guy, but you spend more time with him and you realize his door is off the hinges a little bit.

Yeah, man. If you’re a real friend of his (and I don’t doubt that you are), GET HIM THAT FUCKING BOOK. Seriously. He might likely cry his ass off thinking that nobody understood what he’s been going through his whole life until he found that book.

I still hang out with him though, it's not really out of the ordinary for me to be friends with people who themselves are a little out of the ordinary. I tend to champion the underdogs since I know what it's like to be one myself.

You seem like an awesome fucking guy.

Cheers, bro.

Namaste,

Part One:

the fact that America did this should temper any overt enthusiasm toward how great the founding of this country was.

First I should say that the success of a colonial rebellion against what was at the time, the greatest military power in the world, is pretty fucking awesome in itself and a huge lesson to all of us that sometimes it's worth fighting against the odds. I think you'd agree that principle is worth carrying into what may be the second coming of that revolution. Also you may not have known this, but are you aware that many of the founding fathers were against slavery and foresaw it ending in the future? It's part of the reason why they allowed the constitution to be amended; they knew times would change and eventually slavery was going to end. It was just that the first continental congress had representatives from all the colonies, and those that had slaves would only join with the United States if they were allowed to keep their slaves. At the time, it was the wise decision. Without the support of everyone working together, it would've been a lost cause. In their eyes, freedom from England was the more pressing matter and they could worry about freeing the slaves after the war was over. Another thing to keep in mind is that America had to compete on the world stage with other European powers, and colonialism and empire building was the thing to do for any respectable nation. We had all this land, an entire continent ripe for the taking, why the hell wouldn't they conquer it? As far as they were concerned, the Native Americans were just a nuisance. The Native Americans themselves had no concept of treaties and land owning, to them it was just absurd, like, "what? you can't own land. It's just there". To the colonists, it was all legal and straight forward, they were there first (according to them), they won it fair and square, they paid for it and that's that. The whole thing was just fucked from day one. Everybody screwed them over, not just us. I think the French were the only ones to actually treat them with any respect, and that's why most of the tribes fought with France against England during the French and Indian War. Like I said, history is history, and we can't just beat ourselves up over the mistakes of people who are long dead and buried. Nobody's going to reinstate legal slavery or roll back civil rights, the only place left to go is forward. Maybe the confusion is you think I'm saying we should just gloss over that part of history, which is not what I'm saying, but rather we need to put it in perspective, learn from it, and move onto better things. That's all we really can do anymore. The idea of a truly free country is what's most important, a free country that includes everyone. People come to America to escape persecution, it's supposed to be a whole new world. We've totally lost that today, and that's what this is all about. Setting it right and getting back to what it should've always been.

If Hitler were respectful and cordial to me, then I would be respectful and cordial to him. If Mother Teressa (one of my favorite people) were to be an asshole to me, I might just say “Could you like…stop being an asshole to me already?”

I can respect that. You got my point though, I don't need to really continue here.

All this is to say that I can love Hitler and still send him to prison or to the guillotine. :)

This made me chuckle haha... "We love you baby!!!" CHOP

It's kind of like the Christian idea of Hell, like what all loving God would condemn the children he loves to eternal torture for harmless things like masturbating or using his name in vain? I don't want this come off as inappropriate or anything, feel free to not respond if you're not comfortable answering my next question, I only ask this to make you think critically and to put in perspective how difficult these kinds of decisions can be. If your little nieces, whom you love with all your heart, grew up and went out and killed someone or even multiple people, or did something you would otherwise consider unforgivable and 100% deserving of severe punishment, would you be able to condemn them to death? Could you still say you love them after they did something that disgusts you to your very core? I can only speak for myself, but I wouldn't be able to condemn them. I'd love them all the way up to the chopping block, but I would never pull the string. True love means that no matter what, no matter how horrible, you still have that love for them. I see that as the divine perspective, because any true "God" who is full of overwhelming love, would love all his creations, even the killers and the scum. That's the main message of most religions anyway, overwhelming love and forgiveness. You know what they say, "he who is without sin, cast the first stone" and all that. Of course like you say, there must be discipline and consequences for ones actions because we are, after all, still humans and we have our ways, but once you see literally everyone on this planet in the same way you see a sibling, a parent, or any other blood relative, you will want to bend over backwards to try to understand them and help them get better. Hurting them back would just seem detrimental, and you thereby make yourself no better than this person you see as being so horrible. The higher perspective is letting go of vengeance and anger and hatred. Being able to forgive anyone for anything is something powerful. This is why our whole concept of justice and law needs to be totally rethought. Is it truly justice to take one life for another? If we want to follow the extreme example of murder, sure maybe the person is locked up for life, but they can still be rehabilitated and treated like a human being, even if they have no hope of ever being allowed back into regular society. You would have to ask yourself why they even killed in the first place, because nobody is born a killer and that's the big lesson. Something happened to them that drove them to make that decision and once they can heal, they have the potential to be just as normal as anyone else. Jailing someone is a solution whereby we follow the logic that if they're locked up, they're not on the streets free to strike again. But if that same person has no reason to strike again because what caused them the immense pain that drove them to do something like that in the first place is now gone, then you've achieved the same result and you didn't have to hurt another person in the process. Hurt people hurt people, you know? You have to break the cycle of violence and hate if you really want it to end, and if you can forgive someone guilty of the worst crimes we can imagine, then truly anyone can be forgiven and therein lies peace.

TPTB incite and foment that type of separatist thinking. It works better for them and helps keep them in power while the masses remain dumb and divided.

It's the old strategy of divide and conquer. People fall for it every time, but maybe not this time because this time is different. We have the internet, nearly everybody has computers and smart phones, and it has never been easier to get the word out immediately and on a global scale. Any time TPTB attack us, we just disassemble their arguments and piece by piece point out their hypocrisy and how very wrong they are. Meticulously, surgically, down to the last bolt their machine will be taken apart and reassembled in the light of day. We capture their "guns" and turn them back on them. Unload their ammunition of lies and load up the guns with truth and fire right back. Victory through righteousness.

I

the success of a colonial rebellion against what was at the time, the greatest military power in the world, is pretty fucking awesome in itself and a huge lesson to all of us that sometimes it's worth fighting against the odds.

Oh absolutely. I 100% agree with this.

I think you'd agree that principle is worth carrying into what may be the second coming of that revolution.

Most definitely.

are you aware that many of the founding fathers were against slavery and foresaw it ending in the future?

I believe I’ve read/seen that it was the very opposite of this, and many of the founding fathers actually owned slaves themselves.

In their eyes, freedom from England was the more pressing matter and they could worry about freeing the slaves after the war was over.

Understood…but the slaves were them - i.e. other human beings just like they were. The fact that the settlers didn’t see the Africans (or the natives) as human beings bodes not very well at all for the general modus operandi of these early settlers.

As far as they were concerned, the Native Americans were just a nuisance.

And it’s this type of thinking that makes the most “lofty” settler no better than the lowest dung hill as far as I’m concerned. We cannot really and truly move forward as a species until we respect other human beings as human beings.

The Native Americans themselves had no concept of treaties and land owning, to them it was just absurd, like, "what? you can't ownland. It's just there".

And I can’t say they didn’t have a better, wiser idea about it actually.

history is history, and we can't just beat ourselves up over the mistakes of people who are long dead and buried.

Fully agreed. I just feel it’s important to not aggrandize any past historical figures without being aware of their shortcomings as well.

Nobody's going to reinstate legal slavery or roll back civil rights, the only place left to go is forward.

One would think this - definitely - but even today there are some serious and egregious human rights violations taking place throughout the planet. It’s said that are actually more slaves today than there were at any other time in history.

Maybe the confusion is you think I'm saying we should just gloss over that part of history, which is not what I'm saying

Na. I don’t think there’s any real confusion between us. I understand and ultimately agree with much of what you’re saying. I’m just making an additional point - not necessarily intended to contradict or undermine your overarching message, which I (again) ultimately agree with.

rather we need to put it in perspective, learn from it, and move onto better things.

Yes. Agreed.

This made me chuckle haha... "We love you baby!!!" CHOP

Yeah. Something like that. In my case, it’d be more like “God loves you, baby. It’s all good. I personally might not be mad at you - it’s not really for me to judge or be too indignant against you - but you did wrong, and we can’t have people doing that around here. CHOP.”

If your little nieces, whom you love with all your heart, grew up and went out and killed someone or even multiple people, or did something you would otherwise consider unforgivable and 100% deserving of severe punishment, would you be able to condemn them to death?

To be sure, I’d try my best to influence them as much as possible to be good people, but if they err horribly regardless…well……they’d go straight to prison or the electric chair or wherever they should be going. I do love them. Dearly. Perhaps more than anyone actually. However, I really try not let emotional considerations cloud or hinder what should be the logical and overall best consequences for right and wrong in a society as a whole.

Perhaps my thinking this way is why I have no friends…lol

Could you still say you love them after they did something that disgusts you to your very core?

Yes because even if they did something horrible, I know that there was a time when I truly, honestly loved them…fully…and I’d know that that time was 100% real…and I would not disrespect that time by pretending I didn’t feel that love then even if I was punishing them for something they did that was horrible.

I would say “I loved you, and I still love you. However, you fucked up. You have to be disciplined and responsible for what you do and how you do it. You have to experience the consequences of your ill actions, baby.”

I'd love them all the way up to the chopping block, but I would never pull the string.

Okay well here we’re talking about a different thing, however. You never mentioned ME having to actually pull the chopping block trigger. Would I pull the trigger? Well…my initial reaction is “no”, but ultimately - since we are being hypothetical here - if one or both of my nieces just turned into the most insane, ongoing, incorrigible mass murderers knowing to humanity…then shit…maybe…

True love means that no matter what, no matter how horrible, you still have that love for them.

And I feel I WOULD still love them even if they were insane. However, if, say, they became mass murderers, after trying my hardest to keep them from going down that path, I might just have to kill the fuck out of them so as to keep them from continuing to do harm to and kill others.

That wouldn’t keep me from still loving them though, believe it or not. I would still love them. It’s just that I couldn’t let other people keep getting killed either.

All this is to say that not too far away from my feelings of love are also my feelings of honor and discipline and focus and self respect…righteousness…equanimity…beauty and love for all beings - not just the ones I happen to know personally.

I could not let a being that I love dearly be responsible for killing other beings that I may not know, but who are no less worthy of love themselves.

My idea of love is also concentrated upon a cosmic awareness that applies to ALL things in existence - not just those specific and particular beings that I happen to personally know.

I am indeed partial to my nieces - true - but I am not ignorant of the love that other people have for their nieces and loved ones too…and I honor them as well. I couldn’t allow my nieces to keep others from expressing their love as well, and if they were going around killing other people’s nephews and nieces, etc…then heck…I couldn’t let them do that…

II

I see that as the divine perspective, because any true "God" who is full of overwhelming love, would love all his creations, even the killers and the scum.

And I would love my nieces regardless of how they turned out. To be sure, I absolutely can be a raging asshole, and it’s not like I’m some “holy being”, but I understand that God is in fact everything - the up and the down, the in and the out, the light and the dark, the alpha and the omega, yin and yang, male female, etc, etc.

That's the main message of most religions anyway, overwhelming love and forgiveness.

Most religions, however, seem to do an absolutely shit job of actually applying that message, and that “overwhelming love and forgiveness” often goes right out the window where it regards anyone who doesn’t believe in their particularly narrow band of ignorant proselytizing. That’s a big problem.

“I love you so long as you believe - as I do - that God is [insert limited description here: Male/female/Jesus/Christ/Buddha/Mohammad/Krishna/Moses, etc, etc]”

God is more than all these human descriptions.

once you see literally everyone on this planet in the same way you see a sibling, a parent, or any other blood relative, you will want to bend over backwards to try to understand them and help them get better.

Agreed. Definitely.

The higher perspective is letting go of vengeance and anger and hatred.

Correct, but we must realize that imprisoning and or possibly killing a criminal is not always about anger and hatred. Matter of fact, it should almost never be about that at all.

Societal punishment should ultimately have the goal of discouraging and preventing activity that infringes upon the betterment of that society. It should prevent infringement of the agreed upon rules and regulations of a well-functioning civilization. In other words, societal punishment should have the goal of preventing any further law breaking on the part of whoever broke the law - yes - but it should also prevent any future crimes by anyone else as well.

To that end, if you have, say, a member of a society that is an incorrigible serial killer - once they are finally apprehended and it’s proved beyond any shadow of a doubt that he is the individual sought after, then it would be reasonable to make their punishment be a very public and ignominious (if not actually painful) execution - one that everyone can (and should) see. The point behind this has nothing to do with any type of vengeance, hatred, or even anger on the part of the society. The point behind this public showing would be to demonstrate to everyone what the consequences of certain criminal acts are in the hopes that such a demonstration would discourage any criminal act like that from ever again taking place in the future.

Here we are dealing with no level of vengeance or animosity whatsoever. It is strictly a public service, if you will - one that lets everyone in the society be aware of the consequences and punishments for certain crimes.

Being able to forgive anyone for anything is something powerful.

Correct and agreed, but you also don’t want to not be able to protect yourself from any attackers that may not respond well (if at all) to peace and forgiveness.

Be peaceful and loving - yes - but protect yourself against anyone who might seek to do you harm and take advantage of your being peaceful, forgiving, and loving.

This is why our whole concept of justice and law needs to be totally rethought.

I don’t disagree with this at all.

Is it truly justice to take one life for another?

If you can save a hundred or a thousand lives by taking one, then it would seem that taking that one life would actually be advantageous from the perspective of advancing that society, no?

If we want to follow the extreme example of murder, sure maybe the person is locked up for life, but they can still be rehabilitated and treated like a human being, even if they have no hope of ever being allowed back into regular society.

If our justice system really worked and really locked up ONLY people that were really and truly guilty, as opposed to the way it is now where all kinds of people end up in prison that shouldn’t be, then I’m not sure that those who are REALLY guilty shouldn’t get the book fully thrown at them.

If they really can’t be allowed back into society, then this might sound harsh…but why keep them? I know a response to this is that killing off incorrigible murderers might lead to a slippery slope…and if it WOULD lead to a slippery slope, then I think killing incorrigible murderers shouldn’t happen. However, if we had a system that, again, ONLY locked up the worst people - those that actually were fully responsible for murders, etc - then I’m not certain those people should in fact be allowed to remain in a society that is working toward real improvement, etc.

And I don’t say this in any type of vindictive way, mind you. I say this in terms of what would help the society function as best as it could possibly function.

You would have to ask yourself why they even killed in the first place, because nobody is born a killer and that's the big lesson.

There are many factors responsible for murderers, and you’re right. All those factors would have to be taken into consideration. However, I’m not certain that “no one is born a killer”. There is a saying I have heard before:

”We are not human beings having spiritual experiences. We are spiritual beings having human experiences.”

If this is true - and I strongly feel it is - then no one really comes into this life with a tabula rosa or a blank slate. We are intelligent, spiritual identities that have been born into human bodies for a short spell that we call “a human life”. We come with many previous experiences - the specific memories of which seem to be wiped clean from our minds when we arrive here, but even with our memories wiped and gone, our personality seems generally to still be intact when we arrive (sometimes again) on this planet.

This, I imagine, is possibly a significant part of the reason why my eldest niece is smart as a whip, but can be a screaming, crying, vehement handful of a fire plug at times, while her younger sister, who presumably hasn’t been on this planet for as long and is “the younger and less experience of the two”, has literally from the day she was born demonstrated a level of quiet, stoic, calmness that belies her age and makes her appear to be the older, more mature of the two.

We’re all different…and we come into this life with previous baggage and our own peculiar set of personality variables - some of which might have involved some excruciatingly traumatizing episodes and spells that reverberate (sometimes negatively) from life to life.

Something happened to them that drove them to make that decision and once they can heal

I don’t disagree with this, but it may be a healing that may take more than one life to fully resolve, and in the interim, there may be much continued anguish for anyone in the vicinity of that soul’s issues.

None of this is to say that it’s necessarily in killing a particularly difficult or incorrigible personality that the solution lies. No. However, if your options are to, on the one hand, A) take a particularly incorrigible criminal who might keep killing others in this life they’re living, and spare them because you do not wish to kill even though they’re draining societal resources, or B) free up those resources, prevent future murders, and possibly prevent future criminal activity from others by making an example out of this criminal and killing him/her publicly, then I’m not sure that B is not the better choice, honestly.

Now, don’t get me wrong. I’m not advocating here the killing of people who are mere shoplifters, petty thieves, or criminals of this sort. Again, I’m talking about the HARD criminals that have been proven to be a real irredeemable burden to the society they live in.

A COMPLETE restructuring of our legal system would be needed for something like this to work, however. What I’m talking about would most definitely NOT work in our current, super corrupt system. No way. Too many innocent people would get killed that way.

if that same person has no reason to strike again because what caused them the immense pain that drove them to do something like that in the first place is now gone, then you've achieved the same result and you didn't have to hurt another person in the process.

This assumes that we can find what drove them to cause harm. If we can locate that and do away with it, then perhaps what you suggested might not be a bad idea. A) I’m not sure we can in every case, however, and B) I would prefer to not give any member of society any ideas and think that they can get away with being a horrible criminal either.

Hurt people hurt people, you know? You have to break the cycle of violence and hate if you really want it to end, and if you can forgive someone guilty of the worst crimes we can imagine, then truly anyone can be forgiven and therein lies peace.

Yes. These aren’t bad points. However, I wouldn’t want to allow those who haven’t learned that particular lesson yet to attempt cause damage to those who already know that lesson and are being peaceful. I know hurt people hurt, but people still really shouldn’t be allowed to use their pain as any excuse to hurt others.

III

this time is different. We have the internet, nearly everybody has computers and smart phones, and it has never been easier to get the word out immediately and on a global scale. Any time TPTB attack us, we just disassemble their arguments and piece by piece point out their hypocrisy and how very wrong they are. Meticulously, surgically, down to the last bolt their machine will be taken apart and reassembled in the light of day. We capture their "guns" and turn them back on them. Unload their ammunition of lies and load up the guns with truth and fire right back. Victory through righteousness.

These are not invalid points at all, sir.

Part Two:

I’ve had a pretty active interest in the subject of ETs as of the past few years now because I had experiences when I was young that were rather anomalous, and the more I looked into the issue, the more I started discovering a global coverup that links to a lot of other sociopolitical issues as well.

Oh do tell! I saw a UFO with my friends once, it was pretty wild. We all saw the same thing, and there was no way it was a plane because we were near an airport at the time and saw planes coming and going the whole night. What we saw, it was like this pulsating orb kind of drifting across the sky, waaay to slow to be a helicopter or a drone or anything, and there were no lights that indicated it was anything like that either. We all just watched it for a good 5-10 minutes, all trying to figure out what it was, and then out of nowhere this thing shot 90 degrees up into space and disappeared. We could even see the bluish glowing trail of whatever propelled it up, there is no way it was anything man made. After that we all just sat there basically yelling at each other, "HOLY FUCKING SHIT DID YOU SEE THAT?!"

However, if those type of people really weren’t intending on having kids or don’t want kids but accidentally got pregnant anyway, then it just seems like a pretty horrible situation to bring a child into the world under those types of circumstances.

But that's exactly why I said it's up to the parent, or parents. If they don't want the kid, then they're obviously not going to keep it and nobody is going to force them to do anything.

I also think that there are a lot of people who want to have kids…who maybe really shouldn’t have kids because they’re not ready or fit for it for some reason or the other regardless of whether they want to or not.

That's what education and the community programs are for. It's supposed to be designed to help those kinds of people. You don't create social welfare programs for good parents who don't need your help; they're not looking for it anyway. The philosophy should be, "you're totally unprepared for parenthood? Ok, so let's get you ready". We'll teach you, we'll help you in any way we can and you just do your best with what you've got. You want the kid, we're here to help. You don't want the kid, same deal, we're here to help.

I feel that parenthood - and the consideration of going into it or not - is supposed to be a very unselfish undertaking: It’s not about you. It’s about them - the kid(s) - and I think too many people think too much about themselves first and what they want as opposed to the life of that unborn child and the kind of world that the child would be being brought into.

This 100%. Education, education, education. All of this stems from ignorance, a lack of foresight, and a mish mash of societys ills manifesting in people's consciousness and therefore the actions they take in life. You're absolutely right, being a parent is about self sacrifice. You are quite literally surrendering yourself so that another may live. You are throwing everything you got at this one chance to make sure that the human being you created has a better life than you did, and that they can go on to do the same for their children. I see a lot of parents that have kids for the legacy, like they need someone to carry on their name and carry the family torch. This is selfish though because it means that you are so insecure about your own mortality that you feel compelled to conscript another soul from the void to take your place once you're gone. This new person doesn't have a choice in the matter, and if your situation is less than ideal, you've now condemned them to a living hell.

I realized that my saying “only the most worthy individuals should be fit to be parents” brings in the idea of a dictatorially controlled system where “only the state dictates who does and does not breed, citizen! Eugenics for everyone!”

This part made me laugh haha, you're a funny guy.

However, at the same time, I don’t think that the rampant breeding that is the case now in today’s world is the answer either. By far.

But we're going to need all those people to help fight the bugs and conquer Klendathu. Space isn't gonna colonize itself! :D

Lol but seriously though, education, rubbers, the pill, and community programs (including abortion and adoption). Nuff said.

Yeah. When you first mentioned the book, I was thinking “Is that the same as the movie?” I saw the movie way back when, and it was nothing like what you just described here. lol I just remember it as a cheesy, campy, not very good sci-fi flick.

Seriously you should read the book though if you can get around to it, it's really good. It's a classic, must read IMO. It's even on the Marine Corps reading list. The people who made the movie wasted almost the entire budget on the CGI for the bugs, so everything else ended up being really crap. But there's some hot space marine boobs, so there's that lol. WOULD YOU LIKE TO KNOW MORE?

GET HIM THAT FUCKING BOOK. Seriously. He might likely cry his ass off thinking that nobody understood what he’s been going through his whole life until he found that book.

Take it from me, he would never even look at it haha. He's not the kind of guy to take book recommendations seriously, especially ones about touchy subjects like that. I try not to get into all that with him, I let him live his own life. He doesn't need or want my help. Besides, he's clean now; only drinks since his last run in with Johnny Law. Luckily he could afford a good lawyer so he got off without too much punishment, and after that scare he never went back to being as reckless as he was. Whatever issues he has with his family is none of my business and I think we both prefer it that way. If he ever asks for my opinion or something, I'll keep that book in mind.

You seem like an awesome fucking guy.

You're a good man yourself, keep fighting the good fight. I feel compelled to gently remind you though that I'm no perfect saint or anything like that. I'm just trying to be a good person, have fun with the time I got, and get to my grave without a bunch of pain and regrets. I'm still human and I make mistakes, some of them worse than others, but I don't do things with malice and I feel that has to count for something.

Pax vibiscum, Namaste, Kumbayah, Amen, all that good shit. Shout out from my patch of dirt to yours! :)

Oh do tell! I saw a UFO with my friends once, it was pretty wild.

Sounds pretty awesome actually.

Here. Read this for a brief explanation of some of what I experienced.

What you described sounds pretty awesome. I’ve never had an experience like that. I’ve never seen a craft outside, etc. All the craft I’ve seen…were from the inside. lol

You want the kid, we're here to help. You don't want the kid, same deal, we're here to help.

Sounds right.

I see a lot of parents that have kids for the legacy, like they need someone to carry on their name and carry the family torch. This is selfish though because it means that you are so insecure about your own mortality that you feel compelled to conscript another soul from the void to take your place once you're gone.

Very interesting that you mention it from this perspective because I’ve never actually understood the “carry on the torch” perspective myself that I’ve heard so many parents and future parents talk about. That never served as any type of motivation for me to even think of ever having a kid, and I wouldn’t have had one using that type of thinking in the first place.

This new person doesn't have a choice in the matter, and if your situation is less than ideal, you've now condemned them to a living hell.

Sheesh. Cannot agree more…and the idea of condemning the object of my love and affection (my kid) to a living hell…is just…man…unbearable.

Muuuuch better to simply never ever have kids in my book than to not have my life in order yet and yet still be responsible for bringing another person into the struggle of this crazy existence on this planet. F@$& that. If I myself don’t have it together yet, then I’m not going to bring another life into this world yet. When I do have it together, then I’ll do it. If I never do have it sufficiently together though? then I guess I just won’t bring another life into it. Simple as that.

Would I want for my life to be sufficiently together to have a kid? Of course.

But so what? I’m not gonna cry about what I don’t have. I’m simply going to keep trying to get my life together and be as successful as I can be - kid or no kid. Period.

we're going to need all those people to help fight the bugs and conquer Klendathu.

I think there are enough of us already though. I don’t think we need all that many more of us. We just need to make the ones of us that are already here work correctly is all.

WOULD YOU LIKE TO KNOW MORE?

lol

Take it from me, he would never even look at it

Yeah. I can understand that.

He's not the kind of guy to take book recommendations seriously, especially ones about touchy subjects like that. I try not to get into all that with him

I can understand that.

I feel compelled to gently remind you though that I'm no perfect saint or anything like that.

Yeah, man. I feel exactly the same way. Like everyone else, I imagine, I’m a cool guy under the right circumstances…an absolute asshole under the wrong ones. lol

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Thank you for making me aware of this. Upvote.

I responded.

Hahahahahahahahaahhaahahahahhahaahahahaha you people are fucking ludicrous

You think some disorganized revolution will actually fix anything? You think deep state doesn't have ways to silently infiltrate / monitor any group wanting to do such a thing? They would just put an even worse dictator in power...

But here's the sad irony: If you could organize enough people to successfully pull off a real revolution, you could much more easily just change the current system democratically with those same people. By voting them into positions where they could change the system from the inside out.

Assuming the votes are counted.

This brings us to local elections and why they matter. We as "the people" understand what needs to happen. We need to uphold each other to the highest standards and not let our morals decay due to the pursuit of consumerism.

Lol yeah in fixed elections. You can't come on here and complain everything is rigged and there nothing we can do, then shoot down the only real option we have.

Riot.

Starve the beast

Boycott everything?

Drop out.

Make it your goal to never again pay interest. Pay your cards off in full every month. Never borrow for a car. Get rid of your mortgage asap. (Trade down for a cheaper house with more equity.)

Change your career goals. The less money you earn, the less income tax you pay. The less money you spend, the less sales tax you pay.

I did basically this. I realized one day most of what I was doing was to meet the expectations of others. Others who couldn't even meet those expectations themselves. It wasn't for me, I didn't need all this shit or particularly want it.

So I dropped it all. No credit cards, no loans, no mortgage, no car. Took a job that pays less by far than what I could be making but that I'm happier at. I don't really spend my money, anything that isn't needed to keep the lights on and us fed goes into savings. I have no debt and a decent safety net.

The amount of stress that went out of my life was insane. The occasional unavoidable work related stress is about it. I highly recommend it just for that reason. If people would chase just what they need it would make their lives much easier.

Reminds me of this song I just heard. Truly a diamond in the rough. If the guy touched up his game a bit he would be soooo influential.

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/hopsin/fly.html

You are onto something. Change your mindset. Find happiness not in the pursuit of money but other avenues.

Nobody cares. The Kardashians are on. USA is complacent with corruption.

It's easy to cover it up too.

• Fabricate polls up until the election look like HRC is ahead.
• "Wow! She won the election and the polls were right!"

It's the "First Past the Post" voting system that makes a third party near impossible. I would link to a great CPG grey video on it, but I'm on mobile.

I got you bud

You are exactly correct. And each machine must be certified to have the exact same code.

A website ran by the people giving you the source code for their rigged machines?

Sounds legit.

What's funny is that many mechanisms designed to ensure the integrity and trustability of software running on a machine have already been developed...but people get mad when they're deployed.

Wouldn't that just be a blue print on how to hack it? Like you would essentially be guaranteeing they would be hacked by showing the code, wouldn't you?

Not at all. If you can get a verified, valid version of the client-side voting machine software AND a the verified server side software, you can do integrity checks via hashes on the deployed executables to ensure integrity. However, this is problematic, as you would have to trust whoever is making the integrity checks public for both the client and server distributions.

Paper receipt like ATM would be a nice start, too. Also, live internet tabulations. As a start, bring in UN monitors. This has become a corrupt third world nation. We could learn something from international standards.

As a start, bring in UN monitors.

10 years ago I probably would have said this is a terrible idea. But as we learn more and more about how both parties are so corrupt, the people should want this now.

I am not sure if the brand but the machines here have a paper spool that shows in plain English all of your votes that you personally have to approve. I feel much more comfortable best this way there is a true physical copy. I think vote rigging is less an issue than the lack of choice we have in the USA. I haven't seen Frances system actually in work but I like it on paper. Seems much more democratic and much less money driven.

As a start, bring in UN monitors

Hold on a second there... UN monitors? You really want to put internationalists in a position to manipulate of US elections?

What if Ted Cruz or another anti-UN candidate was on the ballot? You really think they'd be trustworthy then?

The UN is in cahoots with the Rothschild bankers and political establishment. They cannot be trusted and should not be given even minimal control of any of our country's affairs.

If the UN was doing all the bidding for the elites, then why don't they use it much? Why the TPP had to go around the UN? Why the EU had to go around the UN? The UN is more transparent than the elites are willing to deal with.

Now that would create election fraud for real. Imagine if your boss could see who you voted for and coerce people. They can absolutely not make it to where an individual could be forced to present their choice to someone.

Who said anything about your actual name being on the receipt? There is a numerical code on an ATM receipt that allows it to be documented in the order that it was processed at the machine. Even the receipt you get at the pump when you buy gas with a credit card does not show your name.

And what kind of fool would work somewhere where the boss was their enemy, and not organize as a union? The problem with Americans is they are always slitting their own damn throats and then blaming the next guy. I miss unions. Workers used to know how to organize, and were willing to pay the price. These days the bosses have all the power because workers are cowards.

A code on a receipt wouldn't prove anything.... if it's just a number how would you know it even counted. Then you'd be at square one.

You might look into how audit trails work, as in accounting systems. Seems to work for tracking/documenting/proving billions of transactions each and every day. For billions of people every day.

The US voting system is rigged, and is designed to be rigged. The world's banking clearing houses, stock exchanges, etc. have shown there are ways to handle electronic systems that can be audited.

My god man, the banks and stores can take your numbers and trace it back to the original transaction and decode it in many venues.

With voting, you still can't do that or your vote isn't secret, and the vote being secret is vastly more important than some conspiracy about votes not being counted.

If you do make something like that, you'd have to keep the number safe and not give it to the original person in a situation where they could be forced to hand it over. So then your back to square one...

Stop playing dumb. You know damn well that elections are rigged. You know damn well the NSA already knows who you are voting for, as does google, etc. Like you haven't given away that you like Johnson, for Christs sake, like your ID right here on reddit can't be traced to your front door?

If you are worried about keeping your job, you probably are doing something a lot more stupid than voting different than your boss.

If you don't care about being able to audit the voting computers, then you are an idiot.

I'm a sanders supporter for progressive ideals... I'm voting for clinton..

And yes, it concerns me but the proposed idea is ridiculous and can't be done in the way you suggest it.

What would work is digital/paper copies with bipartisan automatic recounts if something doesn't match up with historical or exit polls data or even random County checks.

now we are getting somewhere. bipartisan means what though, the two criminally corrupt parties (racketeers)?

No, something like a public/private university thing while it's filmed..

Wouldn't it be funny if there was already a study/text about "best practices" based on international election observers?

Its kind of funny that the Senate and the House record who voted for what. Are citizens supposed to keep their views secret from each other? It seems that most people's political leanings are pretty obvious. I am for much more disclosure than we have now, and much less secrecy. The best way to decide something and get consensus is to discuss it in the open. When people keep it to themselves, they usually maintain a strong division, never agree, and live with a higher likelihood of violence and animosity.

How much government business needs to be done in secret? Even, the billionaires who are collecting millions in interest from Uncle Sam, for example from student loans, should be divulged and revealed. They do that in Iceland, and Iceland has shown some leadership in democracy lately.

The code is so goddamn simple it could be taught in an entry level programming course. How these companies get away with calling it proprietary code is beyond ridiculous.

It was never a democracy, not in the ancient greek sense, not even remotely. It has always maintained an illusion of being a 'democratically elected republic', however the reality of our republicanism isn't true either--it was and has always been rife with elistist preference and corruption: Real History: Myths of the Founding Fathers (FULL) - Michael Parenti . In addition, meddling from the CIA in our elections has gone back at least 60 yrs, according to the Collier book Votescam (text) (edit: added link)

The electoral college inhibits it from being even a democratically-elected republic. Instead, it's an oligarchically-elected, cryptocratic plutocracy. Oligarchially-elected means coprorations and rich people control who becomes electors in caucuses and local partisan conventions. Cryptocratic Plutacracy means rule by the richest of the rich aristocrats (plutarchs) with affiliations and financial tetherings within the intelligence and national defense communities)--in other words, it's a deep-state run by international corporatists who have a fascist ideology (tightly control what you see, think, hear, believe, what you can buy or do) that is the polar opposite of democracy--which is itself, more akin to anarchy (other side of the spectrum)

All votes should be paper ballots and they should be independently recounted and verified to a list of registered voters 5 times.

Is this a joke about the Florida recount?

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Vote early or demand a paper ballot. It's still not foolproof after that...

Wait, you can do that? You can just demand a paper ballot? (I'm sorry if that's a stupid question but I've never voted... and I've never been to the USA)

In most voting locations that have the computers in question, they keep some paper ballots as backup in case the computers go down. I am an IT guy and there is no way in Hell that I would vote on a computer.

Do you really think they count the paper ballots though?

he means the ones that get thrown out...

I don't get why you guys have voting machines. Here in Canada we get a piece of paper with the candidates' names on it with a circle beside each one. You are handed the ballot and a pencil, you go into a voting booth which is just a piece of cardboard so they can't see who you are voting for, you make an X beside the person you are voting for, put your ballot in the ballot box, they set a book over the slot and it is done. You have cast your ballot. What could be simpler? No software or technology, hanging chads, involved.

Many places have those as well. The fact is there are a large number of different methods for collection votes in the US, for some reason it's left up to the states, maybe even to the counties.

That's crazy. It needs to be simplified so that fraud is less likely.

And every election that has involved the electoral college is illegitimate. Electronic voting machines are just a symptom of the larger problem: the elite have always decided the elections. They just suck at hiding the men behind the curtain this election season. The divide between exit polls and reported figures have never been this far apart in American history.

That is simply not how a healthy democratic republic functions and we should be deeply ashamed that we as a country are apathetic to our own slow death.

We also need some way to verify the code being executed is the correct source code and also maybe some kind of blockchain that could be verified independently with key signing that could also be validated while still remaining anonymous for each voter.

Then everyone would have the same access to the live voting data at a very granular level and over the course of many elections the data could be compared to find anomalies, patterns, etc.

All voting systems can be gamed. ALL. Besides the choices are all shit, and independent candidates get destroyed because they can't lobby and raise funding and control the media like the ruling elites. The entire political structure is rigged against the masses.

People thinking paper ballots are safe are fooling themselves. Ballot stuffing, manipulated counts, ballots disappearing, bribery, fake ballots, etc. happen all over the world.

Only an organized revolution could work; that's why they focus so much on stupefying and misinforming, so people can easily be divided with non-issues like gender or religion or dems vs repubs, or their anger diverted into ineffective goals, or even utilized as unwitting tools and made to love the very mechanism of their enslavement. To prevent the quick death of the efforts, organization must be secret.

For centuries revolutions have succeeded because of careful planning by largely hidden groups, strategizing, funding, infiltrating, sabotaging, spreading ideologies, assassinating key opponents. Leadership is required to achieve victory, and to protect from counter-revolution. That's how the elites do it too, how intelligence agencies stage political coups, how corporate cliques gain power...

Spontaneous mass revolutions that succeed are just feel-good popular mythology.

I really think people should start destroying the machines with no paper trail and leaving ballot boxes in their place.

Classic civil disobedience and I personally would never convict anyone of any crimes associated with doing this. (I imagine criminal trespass and destruction of property would be on the table for anyone caught.)

They'll just show you fake source code. How are you going to verify that the code was actually compiled and running on the machine at the time?

I agree, seeing as how that mathematician guy proved they were rigged a while back and it got hella hushed up and buried.

I think that (a) it was a mathematician chick not a dude, IIRC (someone in Kansas), and (b) the evidence was interesting but far from definitive.

OTOH historical studies have produced extremely strong evidence for rigging in older elections, especially 1960.

Thanks for the clarification.

TY TY TY TY count our fucking votes

Wouldn't the person that rigged the voting start early saying the voting will be rigged by someone else in order to do it without being suspected?

Why not just say nothing? I mean if you did rig it, you don't want any investigation, cause you might have accidentally left evidence that could be found by police while investigating the patsy

And maybe you left some code there on purpose so that other candidate will be arrested.
After all, we have one candidate with IT problems while the other one just steals.

I agree, but even if they open source it, how can we be guaranteed that's the same code they're using? How do we know the hardware can't be tampered with? How can we know the traffic isn't changed in the middle of being transmitted?

A lot more needs to happen than just open-sourcing the code.

I have sent two messages to my state representative to voice my concern over potential issues involving electronic voting machines in my state. All the responses have been 'fluf' explainations from the state government on how voting machine tampering "can never happen in OUR state!" These guys are being feed a lot of mis-information from the companies that make the machine and from the 'federal government!'

Would that make them easier to hack?

Paper is fine!

Forget that, let's just vote on paper.

People here trying to solve the paradox. Even if you find and make a system... by the way, any man made system can be gamed. If man made it, man can game it, it's simple.

And secondly, even if you do solve it, the democracy doesn't work in the first place. People are too gullible, naive and mostly disinterested in politics that's it's really easy to get their support to do anything. Yes, even invade Mexico and gas 10 million people, it happened before, why not again?

So fuck democracy.

Nothing has been done over the last decade and a half... Nothing will be done to verify.

we are stuck

If you don't trust your elected representatives already, I doubt the source code will change your mind in any way who are you kidding?

they could show you the source code, it wouldnt mean anything. they'd just change it on election day.

If the Green Party won ... Would we still need to see the source code?

THIS!! Public votes must be counted by a transparent process. You nailed it.

I'm surprised people actually trust electronic voting.

And, by looking at this source code do you feel you'll be able to spot the problem?

Do you ask "what are they hiding" for all software that is not open source? Obviously diebold or whoever wrote the code is a business that got a contract with the guvmint, and if they give away the code they worked on for free, someone else could steal their IP

You cant prove code is unhackable by looking at the source. There are lots of real programmers that look at all released code, and yet plenty of bugs exist.

Plus im guessing there is an operating system also running on these machines, will you look at that too?

What about hardware backdoors?

What about the servers or whatever these machines send results to?

I mean, i am for preventing serious voter fraud, but why not just compare results to exit polls? they can't be too different.

It just annoys me that you guys are creating rumors of voter fraud without much proof, mostly speculation.

Wow, that was the part you wanted to respond to?

"The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers."

Well, since there's no way to be sure that the code we saw was actually what is being used on election day, it will still be illegitimate.

But I'm up voting this post anyway since it's a good start.

Or...OR we could just move away from the electoral college system.

We should do both. Eliminating the electoral college doesn't actually address OP's concern.

A CRC on the code, matched to opensource github.com - then I might forget about the Electoral Vote. Either way - your vote won't matter.

About 4 years ago I remember seeing a string of tweets from someone trying to get a voting machines source code to anonymous hackers for inspection. I wish I knew what happened with that.

How would this help? Even if the the code was open source how do you know that that code is running on the machine? Also the machine is just sending the votes to some server. How do you check if that server is running the official open source software?

Even though it would be time consuming, I feel like we should go back to pen and paper ballots. A lot harder to mess with unless you just shred a bunch.

Just asking: just because you see a source code, how do you make sure that the program running is compiled from that code?

"Yes, yes, it is the source code that we want!" -the head of the Russian Department of Cyberwarfare.
Anyways, voting machines are a States rights issue. The federal government can't release voting machine information because they have none. You're looking at a massive sprawling heap of inefficient small government and wondering why this 'simple' thing is taking everyone so long. You're looking at fifty different sorts of devices running fifty different sorts of software, more, probably! Even if you had access to all that information, I bet you a million dollars you would never be willing to parse through it unless you had a wish to exploit it. Welcome to the Disjointed Federal Republic of United American States.

States have individual economies which rival European countries... and you are calling them "small government".

That is hilariously naive.

Yes. The entire concept of having "small government" in the US is delightfully absurd.

Whacko

I wouldn't trust 'seeing a legit source code' anyway

I mean I'm not a profesional programmer but even I could code the machine in favour of one candidate

It doesn't matter anyways. The electoral college makes the final choice. The election hubbub is just about keeping us divided and angry at each other and the false system.

You aren't wrong, but it's been this way forever and no one seems to give a shit until republicans are about to lose.

Very true.

They will "look into it" after the election

Not nearly enough.

You need to be able to validate the process at all stages by non-experts. Hence you need an offline paper trail, even if you use advanced cryptography (which nobody understands) to secure the process itself.

Paper ballots provably work. Don't fix what's not broken.

Every man elected into office holding authority over people's lives without their explicit consent is illegitimate.

It needs to go back to paper ballets and nothing but paper.

That's what we should do.

IMHO Bernie Sanders should morally have the top job, he's a decent guy with all the changes that everyone wants to see. Same as the UK with Corbyn. But you know, the powers that be won't allow it as the position requires a person with a little (or a lot) of indecency and be willing to be a shady fucker.

So OP, you're a software engineer and can understand source code? By looking at all that code, you could say "yep, this looks okay. Carry on.". Or are you just another Trump supporter preparing to lose and say "it was rigged"?

Saw on r/all. Had forgotten r/s4p took over conspiracy. Carry on.

We need to start demanding paper ballots. We should do all that we can, like protest. We can't have the Russians choosing someone like Clinton for office now can we?!

Once you see the source code hacking elections would be much easier as well though. Good cache 22

Thing is most areas use completely different machines

That's why a lot of the people over at the_donald are encouraging paper ballots (they're afraid that George Soros, a billionaire Clinton-donator, who has ties to the Smartmatic voting machine, will rig it in her favor). I think this is a fair concern given what happened with Bernie (on top of DNC collusion, there's a stat somewhere out there where Hillary beat poll-predictions in states without paper trails, i.e., using voting software, while performing exactly as predicted in states with paper trails). There's also a video online somewhere, I'm too lazy to find these things again, of a person who worked for a company that made voting machines saying, under oath in court, that it would be impossible for anyone to know if they were to do any manipulation in the votes due to their encryption. He specifically said that they could swap a 51-49 vote so that the loser would win, and nobody outside those who had access would know.

Guilty until proven innocent. Got love this subs blatant hypocrisy.

Well there was quite an upheaval in 2012, machines ha been found to be rigged and any electronic device is susceptible to it. We just want openness and failsafe methods. I do love your blind trust, keep it up, 'they' will love you for it...model citizen. P.S.: Why are you on this sub?

LMAO BUNCHA KOOKS. BAN ME YA BUNCHA KOOKY MODS

Wouldn't that just make it easier to hack?

Hackers will find their way no matter what. The benefit of an open source voting machine/software would be that everyone could verify the source and compile their own version which they would know is hack-free.

How do you know the person using it would not manipulate it

It would work like Bitcoin, in that it would be peer to peer. You can tell everybody who keeps track your voter id and your vote. To ensure that your voter id is legitimate, track-keepers would use it as a "decryption key" to check if you're in the database issued by the government. The encryption of the voter id database would be so you can check if something exists, but not read any voter ids before you have guessed them.

Everyone would then compare and notice if their version of the votes was different. Whatever result most people got would be correct.

Hope I wasn't too confusing :-)

So every hacker in America can find a weak point? I agree with the message, but that's not the solution.

Security by obsurity does not work.

In any case, reading the source code would not tell you what actually happens on the voting maching at the time of the vote. Binaries, compilers, and hardware can be tampered with. It's also very easy to fudge the total counts.

What is needed is a process such that the voting machine does not need to be trusted at all. There are cryptographic answers to this problem.

For instance, there could be a published record of every vote, such that a voter can only identify their own signed entry (using a private key), and such that anyone can easily recount all votes (these checks being made by open source software).

Voting machines would deliver a cryptographically signed, non-repudiable and checkable certificate at the time of the vote. Any tampering with the public record could be demonstrated using the signed certificate. Any error inside a checkable certificate would result in criminal prosecution of the voting machine's manufacturer.

The problem is, to make this really secure voting would basically need to be deanonymized.

Not with good use of cryptography. There are many details to get exactly right, but I'm confident anonymity can be preserved.

If you allow it to be anonymous, you can create fake votes if you want to, that's the issue.

Voting machines would deliver a cryptographically signed, non-repudiable and checkable certificate at the time of the vote. Any tampering with the public record could be demonstrated using the signed certificate. Any error inside a checkable certificate would result in criminal prosecution of the voting machine's manufacturer.

I keep trying to wrap my head around how we can verify that the proper source code is running on each machine too. I think there's probably some cryptographic answer to this problem too, although I can't figure out how to continually guarantee that no tampering has occurred with the voting machine itself.

pgp signatures and hash files

I think that's part of the solution, but how do we continually verify the hash files throughout the voting process... in other words, we verify them at the beginning, but it would be nice if we had some way to continually verify the hash and ensure that the machine isn't programmed to simply display/print/whatever the correct hash even if it's been compromised.

Have the machine print cryptographic receipts with a QR-code (or similar) that anyone can check using an open source app (which could run on a smartphone, or any other device).

To tamper with the election you would have to tamper with all the devices used to check the receipts. I would not trust a smartphone, but a microcontroller-based solution would be feasible and pretty cheap.

Trust but verify.

Wait, you can do that? You can just demand a paper ballot? (I'm sorry if that's a stupid question but I've never voted... and I've never been to the USA)

You should be aware that in most areas those ballots are not counted until after the election, or not at all.

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We should do both. Eliminating the electoral college doesn't actually address OP's concern.

I think that (a) it was a mathematician chick not a dude, IIRC (someone in Kansas), and (b) the evidence was interesting but far from definitive.

OTOH historical studies have produced extremely strong evidence for rigging in older elections, especially 1960.

Why do you trust the people counting votes and the mail system delivering more than a computer system.

Wouldn't it be funny if there was already a study/text about "best practices" based on international election observers?

Its kind of funny that the Senate and the House record who voted for what. Are citizens supposed to keep their views secret from each other? It seems that most people's political leanings are pretty obvious. I am for much more disclosure than we have now, and much less secrecy. The best way to decide something and get consensus is to discuss it in the open. When people keep it to themselves, they usually maintain a strong division, never agree, and live with a higher likelihood of violence and animosity.

How much government business needs to be done in secret? Even, the billionaires who are collecting millions in interest from Uncle Sam, for example from student loans, should be divulged and revealed. They do that in Iceland, and Iceland has shown some leadership in democracy lately.