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Ya, this was pretty scary. They both are quite in favor of a police state. And I think that's why either will impliment.

You heard Hillary dropping those hints. She thinks the Federal government can help the police force.

No matter which pill you take, red or blue, the outcome will be the same.

I will go out in a blaze of glory and 5.56 casings.

Not if they trace your IP address first

That got an actual laugh out of me, well done.

Hammerless Low Carry Revolvers should be the trademark gun of those anti-Hillary, remember folks you're more likely to be stopped when in a crowd. Take your time, be calm, you can easily land on a handgun shot from a building across the street.

Dismantle the gun and melt it Breaking Bad style by the end of the night.

Of course wipe the gun and bullets down and then put gloves on before loading them.

Yep, they are both war hawk Zionists, despite Trump saying a tiny bit about the Fed.

Nah, you can't let the shootings, murdering, and looting continue in our urban areas. More people dying in our streets than in our disastrous wars.

There needs to be law and order. Trump's absolutely right. Gotta get a lid on those animals destroying the communities that built this country.

I believe in law and order done the right way. Not massive surveillance programs and Federalized Police Forces.

Hilary was the only one I heard talking about this, and talking about expanding the NSA'S powers. she specifically spoke about increasing our intelligence agencies and how the internet was a recruitment tool for Isis.

What you're looking for is a racially homogenous society.

If we look at Sweden before the refugees, they were a successful socialist government that worked astoundingly well for such an unpopular system. Add a good lot of refugees, and now it's #2 in the world for rape, and the police are in fear for their lives. The average citizen is helpless. Their culture and race are in serious peril.

Diversity plus proximity equals conflict. Every multicultural society has broken down along its ethnic lines. Every. Single. One.

Clean up the psychopath cops who murder people for jollies every day and that issue might go away.

ohh yea those phsyco cops going around looking for people to shoot, cause who needs a pension amiright?

"murder" ?

"every day" ?

over 80% of all people killed by police in America this year were carrying a firearm and many of the others were attempting vehicular homicide or other crimes that could endanger others.

Per the corrupt agencies. In addition, some of those states are open carry. Just because someone has a gun doesn't mean they should be executed.

I think its funny how known felons and gang members are using their positions within society to complain about the "unfair killings."

The vast majority of fatal police shootings were justified, and maybe at tops 35 nationally were not this year. 35 is still a lot, but nothing compared to the 3000 shootings in Chicago (a city not a country). Considering police officers have to deal with this kind of excessive gun violence, its amazing fatal police shooting numbers arent HIGHER.

Drug dealing celebrities and more have come out in favor of Clinton!

No wonder BLM hates Trump so much, he actually wants people to OBEY THE FUCKING LAW.

I understand all too well the Orwellian police state we live in. Does anyone else? How fucking stupid do you have to be to disobey the orders of a police officer? Seriously. You're arguing with an armed person with the legal right to shoot you in the face, and you aren't going to obey their commands.

Pretty interesting. Be sure not to phone those "corrupt agencies" when someone is robbing you or stealing your car. Cry to Hillary Clinton about it while she launders your tax money straight to ISIS etc.

It would be great if BLM was a legitimate movement and not a hate group funded by George Soros for the purpose of creating an even worse police state than the one that already exists. Sadly, people are actually falling for it.

So, you think I'm a felon or a gang member?

You think a killing is "justified" because TPTB said so.

You used a lot of paragraphs to say nothing, except make yourself look like a willing fascist. Maybe Donald can give you a brown shirt to wear around and rough up minorities. More likely, you would be too scared to go to the communities I serve as a nurse.

Only the ones that don't obey federal immigration policy. You know, the law, that wasn't written by Donald Trump. Again, just asking people to obey the laws of the country. If you are AN ILLEGAL immigrant, why do you get a say? You don't even respect the laws of the nation you're claiming to care so much about.

Hey, did you know that Obama and Hillary Clinton (not Trump) both signed the Federal Fence Act Of 2006 to put a physical barrier on the Mexican border?!

Such bigotry!

It's absolutely terrible how Donald Trump has a positive relationship with another super power like Russia, what you should do is take handouts from Israel and Saudi Arabia and then hold personal vendettas against other nation's leaders for the purpose of private business interests to the point where you demand their death or openly say you'll bomb their country, see: Gadaffi, Assad, Hussein, and Iran.

What is terrible is your argument. It is not even coherent. BLM is not the problem. It is feeble minded authoritarians like yourself. Go back to the Donald and talk about cuckolding.

What is terrible is your argument.

if the shoe fits.

I mean, the guy actually tried. Too busy for a point-by-point takedown? Then keep your fingers on your clit and off the keyboard.

What points? It made no send given the topic. Bring coherent arguments if you want point by point rebuttal.

COherence? His words make sense individually. Grammar, vocab, on point. The onus is on YOU to show how it's incoherent-where's the disconnect? You are not being fair and I won't just take your condescension and indignation as valid.

If you are AN ILLEGAL immigrant, why do you get a say?

why indeed?

I don't care what you will take or not take. What does illegal immigrants have to do w BLM? You need to show why you think it has anything to do w the discussion. When it obviously doesn't. Not going to waste my time arguing points which are unrelated. It's called derailing the discussion and I won't play that game.

BLM is not the problem? So looting, pillaging, assaulting journalists, shooting one another, and screaming bigoted remarks are white people is not a problem?

I'd love to see your definition of a utopian society.

Do you know what an agent provocateur is? You sit there saying you don't believe the MSM but you eat up whatever bs feeds your preconceived notions.

Fuck both of you.

Are they the last two candidates left? Yes.

Are they family friends? Yes.

Has Donald donated to her '08 campaign? Yes.

Have both Donald and Bill been friends with Epstein? A convicted pedophile? Yes.

Did Donald self describe as a Democrat til recently? Yes.

Is this the perfect time for him to "self-destruct"? Yes.

Did the DNC cheat Bernie? Yes.

Does Fox News donate to Hillary? Yes.

This election is over. Hillary is already ordained. The writing is on the wall. She will be out next President. And if she's not? Trump will fuck you all over and do the EXACT same thing she would.

Preaching to the choir. I'm a Stein supporter.

You don't find it disproportionate the number of jewish candidates running in comparison to non-jewish candidates given the population? Isn't that a BLM-style argument?

Oh by the way, did you know more people have died from bee and wasp stings this year than unarmed black men have died from police shootings?

Such an epidemic.

A Jew hater? Why am I not surprised.

Nope didn't say that. Just using math and statistics to support my argument. Not a jew hater at all, although it would be nice if Israel, Obama, Hillary, etc. would stop murdering people in Palestine and Syria. Probably won't happen though, cause its Trump who is a bigot amirite?

Go HILLARY! Murder and money launder your way to the top baby!

Well, to be truthful, bees and wasps kill no one, it is anaphylaxis that kills people.

Answer my question? Screaming bigoted remarks at white people is not the problem?

Not sure what that has to do with Trump. Disobeying federal law is not the problem? Not sure what that has to do with Trump.

This is more reasonable and accurate depiction of reality: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDzsE5heUuA

You're right but gun or not when you are given a directive by a law enforcement officer and you do not comply, you make your own bad outcome.

So, to you, not following commands is punishable by death w no trial. Are cops judges now? Life isn't Judge Dredd.

Do you know the risks cops face, even in aroutine traffic stop? COntempt of law enforcement, just like contempt of court, is insufferable to a functioning system. Just comply, take the badge number, there's dashboard cams, body cams, whatever. It's not perfect, but where is perfection to be found? Not in anarcho-communism or whatever BLM wants.

So, those that are hurt by the system should just deal w it. Must be nice being a WASP. Pull your head out your ass and attempt to fix problems or shut up. Progress will be made whether you like it or not.

Progress in the context of what? The New Soviet Man? You have to make allowances for human nature, and the arc of history. We are not more evolved than the founding fathers. Not a wasp. If progress does not factor in interests of WASPs, is it really progress? Oh wait, only ethnic minorities face difficulties with the system. smh your 'fix'-whatever it is- has probably been tried and failed elsewhere.

Of course, there is a militarisation of police etc but keeping things local, and sticking to the constitution, will leave Americans more secure in their person and possessions than 99% of humanity that ever existed. Not spurious innovations, BLM victimology etc.

No, to me the safety of my family comes first and if that means someone has to wear some bracelets till things get sorted out so be it. If you think you have been wronged in an arrest it's better to comply, live and take it up in the courts.

Please don't become a cop then.

My family is on the job, I simply like the idea of them coming home alive. You run along and spread the gospel of "every officer is out to kill the poor and there really are no criminals, just broken police officers" like a good little redditor.

Take it to the courts which are stacked for the police and against the poor.

Yes very wealthy people can avoid the same punishments that the masses receive, that's why that Dupont guy who raped his daughter walked, welcome to the world. Oh and just so you know there are a lot of broken people are in society, many people in prison have multiple page felony convictions.

So, just accept it? That's un-American. Jefferson is rolling in his grave.

I'm sure Jefferson would not condone "assuming a shooting stance and pointing implements at the police".

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants- Jefferson.

Run from the police and face the possibility of the added charge of felony evasion- tonenine PS Godspeed Nathan Hale, we're all rooting for you.

If a cop tells u to stop moving or drop what u have in your hands and you don't... Sorry, you're taking a risk with your life. You think the cop knows you or what you're intentions are?

I don't disagree with having law and order, at least the way it used to be in this country. But it felt like they both are leaning towards more restrictions and regulations on the people.

That's their only interest, protecting the status quo that only really benefits those at the top.

See: Apartheid

In Zimbabwe, as in South Africa, law and order was given up for a false ideal. Whites were harassed, and ethnically cleansed in the case of former Rhodesia. And now what? The former breadbaskets of Africa can't even get the garbage out of the streets and Zimbabwe is pathetically begging white farmers to return after it figured out it had squandered its colonial infrastructure inheritence.

It's an order of magnitude more difficult to create and maintain a society like ours than to simply let it slide into oblivion.

It is evident that two sets of laws, much like apartheid, are the only real way forward. I know I'll be downvoted to hell for this, but if you really want to see our cities return to places people want to visit and go, there needs to be stricter controls in place. Far stricter than the kid-gloves approach of our police in the inner cities today if they even bother to keep a presence. Otherwise you'll just have indigence and violence that no amount of programs can fix.

That is the way it used to be in this country.

I don't like either candidate, but didn't Clinton immediately say "stop and frisk" had been determined to be unconstitutional and that studies show that it is ineffective? I believe everything she says about as much as I believe she's against the TPP. I'm going to vote for Jill Stein, which according to the internet that means I'm somehow voting for both Donald Trump and Hillary simultaneously.

how does voting for jill stein stop hilary from stealing the election?

Voting for anyone won't stop Hillary from rigging the election. It will come out probably within 1%. Just enough for the loser to think "SEE? we almost had it. Next time we just have to try harder".

.....in no way whatsoever. She's most likely going to win. I live in Indiana, Trump will win here regardless.

Everyone remember, a Clinton donor vs. a Clinton is not going to be a real 'fight'.

The briber vs the bribed not a real fight?

And banning guns for people in the federal earliest watchlist. Having constitutional rights taken away without due proccess is how dictators emerge.

That was a big cringe moment for me. "train the police force?" WTF? May as well create a national police force.

Don't they need better training though? Especially on how to deescalate and deal with mental health issues.

Our government is known worldwide for it's special abilities in de-escalation. That is why Afghanistan, Iraq, Bolivia, Ukraine, Syria, Libya, Somalia, etc are among the most peaceful utopias on the planet. Our local police forces could learn alot from our clearly-talented federal government.

To be clear, do you think that this sort of training would be a bad idea?

This sort of training should be the exclusive province of the local law enforcement. Who knows the community better? The police on patrol, or some bureaucrat trying to make all the square pegs fit into all the round holes of a nationwide curriculum for "de-escalation"?

They tried nationalizing state curriculum in schools with Common Core and No Child Left Behind and it's a disaster. And it doesn't work. Communities are different. Schools are different. They have different needs and there's nothing wrong with that. Local communities can decide what to feed their kids for lunch and the states can set standards for HS graduates based on their own state's needs and priorities.

The fact is policing in Vermont is different that policing in Texas. Policing in inner city Dallas, Texas is different than policing in rural West Texas. Do they all need de-escalation training? Maybe. It can't hurt, but they can do it at the state or local level.

We don't need the Federal Government for everything. We need the Fed to raise an army, facilitate trade with other nations and defend our borders (actual and virtual). Period.

We don't need the Federal Government for everything. We need the Fed to raise an army, facilitate trade with other nations and defend our borders (actual and virtual). Period.

We need it for a few more things than just those.

It's because they're being trained by Israeli police forces and military and NOT US military. Talk to vets all the time who are incredibly frustrated with US policing, just totally pissed. "I'd be court martialed for that shit, WTF" is a very, very common refrain.

thats what her master George Soros wants

Exactly! I have no idea how stop and frisk was ever considered legal? WTF!?!?!

It also worked. Street crime in those areas went down.

Martial law would also work, doesn't make it the right thing to do. Adolf.

OH YES IT DOES!

No matter how you slice it, a lot will alwaysbe left up to the officers' discretion, and they will always be able to either plant evidence or rely on a 'blue wall' for alibis and other false testimonies. This is INHERENT to policing; the old saw-who watches the watchers? This has nothing to do with racism or whatever.

It does relate to racism if the overwhelming majority of those being stopped are minorities.

So who watches the watchers? Leave the police to do their job, tell them why their prejudices are wrong, find competent, unprejudiced cops...whatever. There is no law that will obviate the need to trust and esteem its enforcers. Stop an frisk can be a stopgap measure for soaring crimes (Not a staple). Should we frisk bearded men in dresses/whatever at the airport for bombs? Or is everyone, right down to doddering Swedish grandmas, down for equal scrutiny? Facts lend themselves to profiling, and that itself is a fact.

What facts are those exactly?

he even called her out on that. he said that he knows she's in favor of stop and frisk too, but is basically pandering to the black vote. that's the scary thing- they both have the same positions when it comes to foreign policy and the police state.

same foreign policy

Wrong. Trump wants good relations with Russia. Hillary wants anything but that.

so that means he'll stop funding the war in Syria?

He has stated he wants to work with Russia to resolve that issue quickly, so my guess is yes.

well i like that rhetoric. i don't know how you can pledge allegiance to israel and talk about working with russia, though. if there's one this israelies hate almost as much as arabs- it's putin.

Where'd you get that from? Israel is sometimes called "Little Russia" due to all the ex-Soviet Russians(and Ukrainians, Belorussians, etc) and Russian jews who live there.

Russia has overall positive relations with Israel at the moment even if their geopolitical plans are different.

He definitely only had a certain set of moderate points that he kept pushing for some reason or another despite the multitudes of opportunities to destroy her

That was only the first debate, and first debates are always tame compared to the ones that follow.

I read somewhere that a Trump insider was saying he purposely didn't blow his wad on the first debate. I would imagine that in the next two, we'll see a progressively nastier debate. He let Hillary (and Lester) fire first at him. The point is, he might seem less vindictive now with all the shit he slings since Hillary came at him so effectively.

I do understand that, but it was more just simple points that i wish he had touched upon at certain points where it would have greatly benefited him.

And a no gun-buy list similar to the no fly list.

Hillary could not win the election against anyone else. Trump is also quite obviously trying to throw the election, but with little luck. Had Bernie Sanders declared himself to be running as an Independent when he took the podium at the DNC, he'd be leading the polls by a clear and decisive margin. I'm unsure how Trump navigated the primary process this time to be come the GOP nominee. He's run for president three or four times in the past and was always among the first people to flame-out.

Why won't Trump hit Hillary about the Clinton Foundation and her calendar as Secretary of State, and how she spent so much time meeting with Clinton Foundation donors? Or all the examples of "pay for play". Or, the fact that the State Department had to shut off its anti-virus software and spamware software in order to receive emails from her private email server. Or, how she obviously ducked FOIA with that private email server.

Trump won't hit her on any legitimate subject. Instead, he defaults to "Crooked Hillary" and saying things like "she's crazy!".

Trump is clearly trying to throw the election. He doesn't have the attention span to be president for a month, let alone 4 years.

I think it's more plausible that instead of trying to throw the election, Trump is simply the less experienced politician who is making bad choices out of inexperience. We've seen for a year now, how Trump is absolutely incapable of making the correct tactical decisions and Clinton clearly went into the debate ready and prepared.

But it's like come on now. I with no political experience and about 45-50 (forget his age) less years with knowing about politics feel that I or anyone I know could run a campaign better than he is doing right now. Its some things that are just obvious.

It is obvious, but Trump has also been pretty consistent in his demeanor and mannerisms. He hasn't been able to resist making a soundbite all campaign and now, more than before, he was put in a position where it hurt him.

We're not seeing a newly incapable Trump, we're seeing Trump put into an arena that doesn't benefit him.

If you look back at the primary debates, he performs similarly but here he lacks a dozen other candidates to screen him.

The man also clearly has an ego problem but that's not something he can simply change, it appears to be who he is.

You mean scripted things before hand and read off a teleprompter? Yeah that'll do it.

Well yeah, she's prepared. I don't understand how her thinking about the debate ahead of time and preparing for obvious questions is somehow a bad thing. It clearly benefited both candidates as well. Look at Trump in the second half of the debate on topics he clearly hadn't prepared for like "cyber" or foreign policy and compare it to how he responded on trade. That's the difference that preparation makes.

Problem is once she's in office she can't prepare for days on end before making a decision. There will be times when a decision needs to be made quickly and as impulsive and idiotic as trump can be, I think he knows how to fire off a decision under pressure, whereas Clinton seems to deliberate and flipflop and otherwise prove herself useless.

I really don't think thinking things through is a negative. I struggle to think of a situation that is urgent enough that it cannot wait where I would prefer the impulsive response. Not only that but I feel like Trump could easily make an impulsive response when he did have the time to think it through anyway.

Don't get me wrong, trump is a dumbass. But I see Clinton's inability to be reactionary and decisive as a negative, at least in some scenarios, obviously there are others where tine to deliberate is available and likely the best course.

The country is going to continue on the same fucked up course regardless of who wins anyway.

I dunno, she was pretty reactionary re:Libya, Egypt, Honduras, Waco (she was behind this, believe it or not - worth reading up on because I never knew it at the time, it's a bit of backstory in Vince Foster's death), and so on and so forth - that's one of the reasons she's so dangerous. She's pro-attacking Iran, pro-US ground troops in the Middle East. She's dangerous. And so is Trump. I agree with you that we're pretty fucked.

True, I'm really just looking for reasons to give her shit. For a second I thought you were using Libya and Egypt as examples of her being reactionary in a good way. She's a monster.

Yeah, definitely not in a good way. I don't get how people who consider themselves liberal support that Kissinger-worshipping warmonger. But I don't get how people who consider themselves conservative support Dodgin' Donald. The world's been upended and everyone's lost their damned minds.

Really?

https://melaniekillingervowell.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/bush-reading-my-pet-goat.png

No need to prepare when your people basically set up everything and gave you a litany of pre-scripted answers to pre-scripted questions. Humans are not so elequent, she had to have been reading from a screen or something.

Really? Public speaking isn't magic and she's been in politics for years. It's just practice. She wasn't even all that eloquent and I think really it was the direct comparison to Trumps long winded, repetitive style that helped showcase her comparative skill. It's also been a long election with clear issues. Everyone, even Trump, could see questions on issues like trade from miles away.

Have you seen many public speakers, actors or comedians? They can do far better than what Hillary did, with far less preparation.

The debates with Bernie she was much less prompt and peppy with her answers and was much more vague. Of course Trump is a predictable guy so that may account for it but I agree that she seemed more scripted today than previous debates.

Humans are not so elequent

It's eloquent. And have you never seen a debate before? What she did wasn't magic or conspiracy trickery. She was more prepared than him. Hell, even in the history of debating her talking points and speeches aren't even top 10. Humans absolutely have the ability to speak eloquently without assistance far better than she did last night.

Why was she looking to her left every 3 seconds then?

You can't honestly believe Trump is that stupid or ineffective.

Why not? Again, Trump isn't doing anything new, in fact he's being the exact same Trump we've seen at rallies and at the primary debates. If you don't remember, he also didn't do so well at primary debates but he had the benefit of a dozen candidates screening him. This is what happens when you put those same rambling campaign speeches right next to someone who knows what they're doing. His Ego has also been well established in the past year. Can you give an example where he hasn't taken some sort of bait offered to him? His official twitter has basically been nothing but him going after various remarks made towards him.

What new levels of stupidity are you seeing that weren't there before?

Had Bernie Sanders declared himself to be running as an Independent when he took the podium at the DNC, he'd be leading the polls by a clear and decisive margin

I saw exactly ONE poll that asked people who they would pick if Clinton was the nominee and Bernie ran independent. He got 18%, only like 15% behind Trump who had the plurality. There's no question that he would have gotten the plurality easily if he actually ran.

And yeah, Trump is 100% pulling his punches and has been the whole time.

Disagree strongly. If she were running against Guac Bowl Merchant Jeb Bush or Cuban Rat Trickster Ted Cruz she would win in a landslide. And that's what was supposed to happen. Trump was a literal trump card.

Really buddy? He's trying to throw the election ? Give me a break concern troll

It's time to realise he's a fucking moron however well-intentioned he may be, my suspicion is the only vote rigging the DNC did that really mattered was getting Trump in as her 'competition'. They know he's the only person inept enough to make her look good. Now imagine if Rand Paul had debated her, people would demand her fucking head which is what should be happening.

Your comment just depressed the hell out of me. Man, would that be something I'd enjoy seeing, Rand vs. Hillary. I might not even have to get flat wasted before watching it.

Sorry, but yeah, I'd even pay to watch Rand tear her a new asshole. I doubt she'd even make a second debate after answering to somebody with a brain.

He's either tanking it to lose or just really irresponsible. He owed the American people better than he gave us last night. It was an embarrassment.

He laid his cards out for everyone to see. Massive tax cuts for wealthy 1%s and massive tax cuts for international corporations who took jobs overseas. He still is touting trickle down economics despite it being proven false time after time. He's there to institute policies that help millionaires like him and fuck the average citizen. Big surprise.

Seriously fuck the wealth class leeches in this country who won't even pay their fair share despite having more than they could ever want. Burn in hell, assholes. Hate the rich.

Okay, let me slide in here as devil's advocate. I'm a small business owner. I'm leaving California because I can't compete in this environment. It's just not worth the effort it takes to manage such a machine as a business.

If you want to regain living wages, good jobs, and a functioning economy outside of bubble-land; you have to give people like me some freedom. The business environment in the United States has become closed - lots of regulation, massive amounts of capital required, and greasing palms of bureaucrats. It's out of hand.

You try this "muh equality" crap and you'll send this weak economy straight into the graveyard. I own this business because I'm qualified and I built it. It cost me friends, fun, etc; but I am fulfilled as achieving something bigger than myself and enacting my will in a form that people support.

And before you criticize me as some kind of ruthless businessman, I'm a permaculturist who works with farmers to increase water efficiency, increase yields, and plan property for maximum production in total harmony with nature. I want to create jobs. I want to get more people in on this great trade. It's bullshit that I'm being kept on the margin because we can't "disadvantage" people that want to continue to sleep through life. Bullshit.

It's definitely not you and your fellow small business people that are going to be helped though. It's just another corporate handout and it'd be the same deal under Hillary for all her big talk of taxing her biggest donors.

Trump's policy favors individuals as well as corporations. I'd be looking at 20% or so tax savings. Much of that can go into growing a small business or adding enterprises.

It's bullshit that I'm being kept on the margin because we can't "disadvantage" people that want to continue to sleep through life.

What do you mean by "disadvantage" ?

I sympathize with small business owners, but the majority often end up inadvertently shilling for the very same big corporations and politicians that have created the very same over-regulation and hostile market conditions they complain about.

Something, something, temporarily embarrassed millionaires.

How much money will those tax cuts save you? How much will they save companies like wall mart? How can you ever hope to compete with a company with an increased advantage over you? Wallmart can funnel the extra billions of dollars from tax cuts into all sorts of competitive tactics like building distribution centres, buying robots for job automation and more. You might be lucky to do something like afford an extra employee.

Walmart has financial resources at its disposal, but that's really all it's got. It's a large, brittle, company that's difficult to maneuver and very sensitive to exchange rates. Its all counter-party risk, the type least able to be controlled. The days of the dominant mega-company are getting close to over. They depend too much on corporate welfare. Economies of scale are outweighed by diseconomies of scale.

As far as what I could do with an extra 20% of the money I earn... All those retained earnings can go back into infrastructure, workers, or even leisure.

most small businesses fail- and it's not due to regulation. It's just hard to get access to the big contracts you can get when you're better connected or have a medium to large business.

I'm a permaculturist who works with farmers to increase water efficiency, increase yields, and plan property for maximum production in total harmony with nature.

the argument i keep seeing here (from companies like nestle) is that by deregulating utilities and making water a commodity- it will drive efficiency because farmers will have to invest in new technologies. california is kindof its own little bubble, but i think that was the same argument the Enron guys made...

I hate the greedy rich. It pissed me off knowing that I paid more in taxes, as someone who was making nearly minimum wage, than a fucking billionaire and he bragged about it, or how he bragged about the housing crises. Like dude you can't just say shit like that and expect lower and middle class families who lost shit because of it to jump on board with you. Trump had an opportunity to change my mind, because I fucking hate Clinton too, but he face planted.

I remember Buffett and Munger. Both called out time and time again that they have to pay nearly nothing in tax. And that this has to change, they spoke out against it, buffett in one interview I remember almost looked repulsed.

But in the end he paid less, it's the laws that have to change. Not the people taking advantage of it. You take a freebie as much as the next guy.

And even though we can do with a lot less, were not going to give away everything to live on the bare minimum, even though we could maybe afford to lift 25-50 other people out of poverty in third world countries.

Yes even minimum wage will do that. Don't hate the player, hate the game.

Excuse me but Trump is still being taxed on everything his company and entitites purchases, and contributing to local economies, stop acting like you have have the same contribution level in taxes because you are taxed 1.25 a hour. He has plenty of money to hire a army of accountants, as any billionaire should, and if Apple and Facebook can get away with not paying taxes why is it any different if Trump does?

Paying taxes is for most people, pretty much the only civil duty they have. When Trump does not pay and then goes on to claim our infrastructure is underfunded, it rings hollow because taxes pay for our infrastructure. How can you expect someone who has deliberately taken advantage of the system to play fair with it? Doesn't that make you doubt his efforts to change taxes since he will almost certainly ensure he and others continue to pay nothing. We need people to fix the loopholes and Trump has a clear motivation to keep them open.

I think people who used the system have a clear motivation. I incorporated (and liberated years after) and paid nearly 0%. House rent everything was business expenses. Profits deferred etc.

Business is about making money. If you're taxed 30% and can save 90% of that you earn 27% more profits.

Would you share 30% of your paycheck with your coworkers who earn less?

Nah there has to be better laws and incentive.

Lower corporate taxes too. I think if he can really lower them so much that multinationals repatriate and reinvest their profits in the US it will mean a lot more jobs for everybody.

The whole point of taxes is that the government shares with you and you pay them for it. Trumps businesses attract greater road traffic, they use public power lines to carry electricity to them, he relies on public pipes to water his golf courses and more. All of those things are paid by taxes yet despite using them and costing the government money, Trump pays nothing. Lowering taxes would mean that you could afford to run those utilities for less, you would be giving away more of your services for cheaper. That sounds like bad business from the government's point of view.

Ultimately this is because you can't run a government the way you run a business because a government isn't trying to make money, it's trying to provide services and security. If no one pays tax, then it doesn't matter if it's absolutely free to open a shop in america, no one will because it'll have no power, no running water and no street connecting it to the rest of the world.

I get it. And I'm all for it. But right now I can legally pay next to nothing. So I don't.

Laws have to be better and they should make them so you can't so easily avoid taxes. People who exploit it would know best how to close the holes. I'm for closing and I'd support a candidate that could (Ron Paul was pretty smart). Doesn't mean I'm not going to take all the legal options presented to me for until the law changes.

Trump brought up VAT (value added tax) at the debate yesterday. It would go a long way for everybody paying their fair share. Clinton was fairly quiet. I was sad he changed the subject pm this so quickly

Doesn't Trump have an explicit incentive to not close the holes though? By the sounds of it, it'll end up costing him 30% of his money. Like, we talk about the power of money in politics, but this is just another way that a politician has a monetary incentive to not do the right thing. How is that any different from some corp offering him the equivalent of 30% of his money to not close the holes?

everybody has the incentive to himself not the close the holes. And some have at the same time a motivation to help society as a hole, so incentive to close the holes.

I dunno what his motivation is, it may very well be as you say.

I'm just trying to give you another perspective. A rational person uses the system where it benefits him or her, doesn't mean they don't see the ills of it and wouldn't change it.

I'm not a fan of his (fan of Ron Paul), but his economics if even only 1/10th will be pushed through would benefit the general public more than any previous candidate i've seen.

His stance on immigration (as an immigrant) is terrifying, but I think it's just hot air and negotiation, start with 100 so you can get 60. (there wouldn't be a wall, no deportation, and muslim ban). He's also missing, in my eyes, the benefit many undocumented immigrants have on the economy (unclaimed social benefits on 7 billion *or so paid taxes a year for example).

Bernie was about making Wall St. pay, Trump actually has a transaction tax he wants to put out. It's small things. But he may be the closest thing you have to real change in the financial markets and manufacturing as a whole that we've ever been.

PPS it wouldn't be bad business. Building roads creates jobs. The electric grid does and expanding them does, increased productivity does. See lower oil prices recently and manufacturing.

These people spend more money and add them back into the economy adding businesses etc.

It all comes around and people pay it back through higher interest rates when you have to reign in the money supply and Treasuries so the government can pay back what it borrowed.

It's also not financed by tax revenue since Keynes anymore. The whole idea of all this QE was adding money into the economy. Lower interest rates more borrowing more spending.

But instead it went to asset inflation through share buyback and all that because of missing tax laws on capital gains mainly and wall Street greed.

So if we're suffering a major debt crisis because of easy money and low taxes, how will cutting the taxes of large corporations help? Won't that just also inflate the bubble further by giving them more easy money?

no it's different, because that money already is in the system.

and high taxes if you have laws to evade them, or keeps companies from bringing that money home and spending it here doesn't mean anything.

US has one if not the highest corporate taxes in the world by far, it's why companies keep their money abroad. The largest corporations around the world, the biggest profits, all US companies, and the money stays in foreign monetary systems. That's maybe a bad example, and I apologize, but , 2 Clubs, both with entry cover. Pay each night. at Club Red the clear Hotspot in the City the Cover is 100$, Club Blue Cover is 25$ 2nd night 90% guests from Club Red leave to Club Blue.

Even though the cover is less, Club Blue maybe earns their money through drinks and other purchases inside. Club Red has a high cover, but low numbers because few people still visit it.

**edit I english good.

he does pay. have you every operated a business? the owner is the last to get paid after all the workers (wages and their taxes), property tax etc. the man has contributed a lot to the economy in taxes, just not personal income tax.

No i feel any US citizen can learn the same tricks Trump is doing, your ignorance of US tax laws doesn't mean hes doing something wrong or illegal, and for you to accuse him of anything tax related makes me want to see if you have any tax deductions. If you use your knowledge for a tax deduction and your poor, are you suddenly "innocent of said crimes," because of your proverty? Stop being hypocritical and start understanding how money works. I delivered pizzas for two years full time, my deductions let me survive and have a fall back fund, not going to start yelling at my senator because someone has a bigger tax break then me.

My understanding is that many of Trumps tactics require large amounts of money. The average person cannot found their own S Corp or charitable foundation. They can't claim millions in losses to make their net income zero. They certainly cannot afford to move money to a tax haven. What tricks are there? If you know of them, are you managing to pay no income tax?

Trumps businesses may make millions but they also use our infrastructure paid by tax. The wires that bring power to his skyscrapers or the pipes to bring water to his golf courses are examples. Yet some how he doesn't actually have to pay the tax that funds those things?

If we were all as smart as Trump as you say we can be, who is holding the bill for all the common utilities we use?

He is paying for his water bill, and electric bill. He pays tabs and license fees on all his vehicles which includes his fleet of business vehicles. But remember those can be deducted on your taxes. I dont own a business so I am not going to learn how he does it for fun, because looking up tax codes is not my cup of tea. But I'm pretty sure sure he has a army of Ivy League alumni to take care of it. He probaly spends a lot of money on his businesses so that is probably the reason why he can deduct so much. Just like i can deduct my cell phone because i use it for business

I'm not talking about the utility bill, I'm talking about the actual government work that goes into the infrastructure. More abstractly, he also benefits from fire and police services as well as skilled worked educated at public schools and many other such examples of services paid via tax.

You dont understand taxes, or infrastructure. Police and fire comes from property taxes, which are paid for by the individual owner. Trump has to pay this or he would lose his property. Electric lines are paid for by private companies to bring you power, sewage by the property owner whenever they decide to upgrade. 10,000 dollar assement is not unheard of. Last comment, no offense but you have no idea what your talking about and i have to go to work. Just because he pays no federal taxes and state taxes at the end of the year, doesnt mean he isnt paying sales taxes, real estate taxes, or anything else.

You said any US citizen can learn what he does, then you say it takes an army of Ivy League alumni... Hmmm

I dont pay federal and state taxes and always get a big fat return because Instead of waiting for someone to tell me to do this, I learned how to do it myself. Trump needs A Army because he owns hundreds of corperations. Maybe you should stop browsing reddit and learn how to do it. Hmm...

Sure you do. But you're being audited so you can't prove it right? And you can't provide specifics because we should do the research ourselves?

Pretty easy buddy, learn what you can deduct and what you cant. Haven't been audited once and yeah my information is so inclusive its too good for you man, its like you cant go to H and R block and ask questions or go on any tax help site online. I didnt start off doing my own taxes, and didnt have anybody telling me what to do. I learned, and so can you.

how many jobs have you created? who is paying your wages? if his companies are paying 10,000's of peoples wages (and income taxes) and property tax does that not count?

I am a CPA many of our most successful clients have modest personal incomes as their wealth is stored in the company.

trickle down is a myth http://www.nationalreview.com/article/367682/trickle-down-lie-thomas-sowell

The "wealth class" are leeches? Interesting. That sounds suspiciously like how I'd classify the "welfare class," so to speak. Mind explaining your meaning behind using that term? Because to me it really doesn't seem to be an appropriate characterization.

They are the ones subsidized by not paying a livable wage to their employees, so we bail out their businesses with the SNAP program and welfare and other social programs. That's why it's "hard on businesses" to raise minimum wage - because we're giving their employees money for them so their CEOs can make billions. Further their tax cuts are ludicrous, they should be contributing more. (Too tired typing this on mobile to elaborate)

That's why you should never believe the hype, don't worry though I'm sure Clinton was reading off a teleprompter and planned the whole event beforehand. Remember TV is at it's most dangerous when it tries to portray reality, when the truth is that it's nothing but photons passed through their editing filters. You only see what they want you to see.

What about live TV

Same shit, tape delay.

Seriously? I know it wasn't great.. But Trump is no politician and was his first 1v1 debate. It'd be like you or me trying to debate that brown nosing witch... Cut him sum slack and watch it again. Lester Holt leaning left af...

Cut him sum slack and watch it again.

Im not a clinton fan at all but her lawyer background was definitely on display last night. Unfortunately in politics as well as business you dont get do overs and you dont get cut slack.

Hey sorry Putin im kinda new at this, cut me some slack?

Never said he should get a do over.. And he wouldn't be defending his pointless tax returns, a stupid birther movement I hope I never have to hear about again, and Hillary's non-presidential 'look'. Lester actually asked him that.. At a presidential debate... Gotta believe the real job deals with more important issues and less personal attacks.

Like Putin. Trump would rather talk real issues and not MSM bs...

Lester Holt is a registered Republican. Trump interrupted Clinton two dozen times even with his "biased" moderation

Registered republican who is clearly voting to keep the establishment. Lester also interrupted Trump almost 3x as much as Hillary.. Seemed to be working with her the last half

Trump interrupted Hillary nearly two dozen times. Hillary interrupted trump 5 times. If Lester only called out Trump at 3x the rate he called out Hillary, that's actually bias towards Trump.

Lester's actual interrupt numbers were 41 towards Trump and only 7 for poor ole Hillary..

I don't actually have statistics for how often Trump spoke overtime, but 41 interruptions seems high if he only injected Hillary 24 times.

Steam rolled by the Clinton political machine.

A lot of people are looking at the long game and saying that Clinton blew her entire load in the first of three debates, which is how Romney lost. She sprinted on the first third of the marathon, calling him on every single Last thing. What does she have left to attack him on in the next two? She even laid out all her policy in this debate. We will hear nothing new from her from now on. Everyone is upset that trump pretty much played the defense, but if you look in the long game you'll see he still has an entire artillery left to bring her down in the next two debates.

They didn't even touch his Foundation - his self-dealing makes the Clinton Foundation look legit (and it isn't, not by a long shot). He's the gift that keeps on giving when it comes to destroying him logically - but people are out of their minds right now, so it's not really hurting him. I suspect they're both shocked that he's doing as well as he is. OP is right - they're in this together.

👏 👏 👏 👏 👏

^. thread's dead baby, thread's dead

Nah, Hillary will win if she doesnt mess up. Trump sealed the deal last night. She just has to smile and maintain.

Nah, Hillary will win if she doesnt mess up.

Hillary will win even if Trump gets the popular vote in November. This whole thing is a sham.

Its insane to have this conversation. The MSM is fucking with us, and we need to vote Jill. Even talking about the two turds is sheeple behavior. This whole thing is corporate controlled. The only one wanting to end corporate control (legal bribery of politicians) is Jill. Case closed. Stop feeding the trolls and the machine.

Third party voters seem pretty evenly split between Jill and Gary. If one of them were to drop out, even endorse the other (I know they're essentially polar opposites on many policy points)... well, then a third party might stand a remote chance this cycle given how repugnant the two main parties' candidates are. But it looks to me like the third party voters are going to split up between the Green and Libertarian Parties instead of actually posing any threat to the Big Two.

It was a huge mistake for them not to work together and come to some sort of compromise to share a ticket. I know they're diametrically opposed, but they're both bright, decent, and capable human beings and together, they really could have a chance.

then a third party might stand a remote chance this cycle given how repugnant the two main parties' candidates are.

not when the media is controlled by clinton and the debates are controlled by the media which is controlled by clinton

our only hope is voting third party now to strengthen them for the future and hope that we can make it through the next 4 years without nuclear war wiping everyone out

Not to mention that the election itself is to whatever extent possible controlled by clinton as well, as evidenced by the democratic primaries. I'm talking flat-out election fraud. I would love to see some verifiably independent agency guarantee the election results in swing states. The exit poll discrepancies in the democratic primary would indicate the necessity for some sort of data to add legitimacy to the upcoming election.

For my part, I am not putting a whole lot of hope into voting. Hasn't helped the situation in my lifetime, and I 'd wager it will take something other than an election to change the system in any meaningful way at this point. As the saying goes, if voting changed anything, it'd be illegal.

I loved me some based crystal grandma, but support for jil stein on r/conspiracy is a thing? I thought conspiracy/distrust of the media/various trutherisms was a hallmark of the proverbial 'RWNJ', not leftists/communists whatever.

Circus was rigged against "the heel" in the entertainment division of the military industrial complex.

Reality TV has never been realer!

Now those who swallowed Trump can begin to notice a similar, bitter, shitty taste of swindle that all the dedicated Obama-heads got with the "Hope" delusion.

Deep State Status Quo rolls along.

The good thing about it is the Trump disappointment will get us new r/conspiracy recruits, not the type who come here thinking it's one side vs the other, but the type who have figured out there's really only one side.

We gotta stop Infowars too. God knows how many Trump supporters those Zionist shills created.

infowars introduced many people to the topics and climate of conspiracy culture

I know, but they turned into Zionist supporters and disinformation spreaders around 2011. Nowadays they refuse to discuss Israel and blame everything on the left. They even went so far as to censor one of their own episodes, the David Duke debate, which you can't find on their channel but can find elsewhere on YouTube.

well, duh, we've been calling this from the jump

It's because the Clintons got Trump to run in the first place. Which is also why he got the most media coverage of any candidate in the last year. Planned from day one if you ask me.

I dunno, they probably didn't predict he'd actually win the primaries. They just wanted the media to showcase a crazy Republican who they could contrast another other crazed Republican against so she would look more electable. They needed a heel so that Hillary could play the face. They probably figured Trump would end up losing the primaries despite everything the likes of CNN or MSNBC gave him, and then walk away with a devoted crowd of followers who he could easily monetize.

that's a fair speculation-is also rumored they never quite expected him to take of quite so hot. He was their creature though, they reeled him in and he bent the knee.

^ *1000.

Yes, he missed some wide open shots, but he's not a professional politician.

An experienced statesman(woman) with 30 years experience in national politics and policy should have been able to destroy Trump in a debate, and she didn't. It's a draw at best and that is a loss for Hillary.

We're not professional politicians and even we can see that the Clinton foundation and private email servers would have sealed the deal.

He could have, but he didn't. We can speculate as to why he didn't, but the idea of having to accept the "incompetence theory" one more time is unpalatable to say the least.

Or when he dropped the emails thing almost immediately...

I fucking lost it when he he was asked about making 650 million and not paying any taxes on it and he goes "Cuz Im smart"

Fuck you dude no one wants to pay taxes and Im sure if we had the resources to hide our money we would. Im not paying taxes because its a lack of smarts, I cant afford to hide my money.

I actually totally agreed with him on this one--and it was one of the few instances in the debate which I did.

Taxation has gotten completely out of control and our tax dollars are funding wars, out-of-control surveillance, a police state and paying back interest on the money created by the Federal Reserve.

As a lawyer well versed in the bullshit that is tax law, i am in favor of a flat tax. But if someone can pay as little taxes as possible while following US law, more power to them.

But if someone can pay as little taxes as possible while following US law

Now would you say the same for a person who maximizes their benefits from the government? More power to them?

Thats whats happening. I mean I expect to pay something for education and maintaining infrastructure and for every Trump billionaire who doesnt pay taxes to maintain that it gets passed down to people who dont have the resources to legally hide their money.

The real question is: am I in favor of the current tax system and the answer to that is no. I understand and agree that the current tax system is corrupt and benefits those who have the power to influence it. This is why I am in favor of a flat tax and I am totally against the many ways that the government squeezes money out of us. Having said that, you don't have to be super wealthy to incorporate yourself as a business in the Caymans and have an employer pay your salary to that business and write off everything you can as a business expense--you just have to take the time to do the research and understand the system.

I also expect to be paying for education and infrastructure and I think any person who wants to see America do well would also expect to do that. The fact is that these are vital things but so little of our tax money is going to them. The way our tax money is spent and the way we are taxed are two separate but massive and important problems.

http://money.cnn.com/2016/04/18/pf/taxes/how-are-tax-dollars-spent/

The real question is: am I in favor of the current tax system and the answer to that is no.

But that doesnt mean we should reward people for gaming the system which only allows them to have more influence to game the system, it creates a positive feed back loop.

Having said that, you don't have to be super wealthy to incorporate yourself as a business in the Caymans and have an employer pay your salary to that business and write off everything you can as a business expense--you just have to take the time to do the research and understand the system.

Still unapproachable for 95% of the people in the United States. Not to mention the nightmare in incorporating a US only based company in the Caymans, one of the reasons hedge funds are based there is because they have many customers from many countries. Im sure you also know that if everyone did this then they would crack down on that instantly and I dont have the money to defend myself from an audit.

We are talking about people who make 250k+ yearly and thats on the very very low end to even begin thinking about moving your money off shore.

But are you in favor of people who legally take advantage of the system in other ways including benefits?

Yep Trump paid nothing in taxes. Also his employees, his businesses purchases, and everything else paid zero cents. Everyone pays their fair share, his went to accountants and Lawyers.

He is smart for that. He doesn't get a salary like everyone else. His taxes are on capital gains and other things like that, he can re-invest those things into his business and declare business expenses.

Warren Buffett doesn't pay any taxes either. Because of not having a salary.

start a business. grow it. get a CPA. employees get screwed the most on taxes. the law is set up to favor innovation and entrepreneurs (as it should be). tax planning is a hell of a drug.

I completely agree with you--I had the same thoughts watching the debate. While I am not a Trump supporter and find him to be extremely poorly spoken and lacking understanding of the issues at times, I loath the corrupt Clinton family and felt like he could have hammered her on so many things but he held back.

I saw many Trump supporters say that he was trying to be presidential and while they wanted to see him attack her on the Clinton Foundation and how she is indebted to multinational corporations, big banks and foreign nationals, they thought he might be saving those weapons for later debates and not wanting to blow his load early so to speak. If he doesn't attack her on this issues (among many others) in the next two debates, I will be convinced that he is a pawn helping her to win the election.

Because he likely has his own criminal dealings with the Clintons after years of donating to them.

Don't forget!

Fun times.

Meh. This isn't proof of nothing. Being in the corporate world, you're going to have meetings, dinner, long talks and laughs with people you hate or at least disagree with.

I think Donald Trump is a double agent, too, but this pic proves nada if you're posting it seriously.

Lol. It's not a meeting, that's at the Trump's wedding.

Don't take the pic as sole proof of anything. But it's alluding to the fact they have a deep-rooted friendship.

He's basically an oil snake salesman. A big joke. The circus is hopefully over...

Doesn't mean I'm a fan of Clinton but come on, Trump is garbage. American's don't have a choice really, system is rigged.

I thought that as well, but then I read this which is an interesting counter-perspective. http://www.lifezette.com/polizette/way-trump-actually-won/

This is what I thought as well. He needed to establish himself and show that he isn't the wild crazy racist the msm made him out to be. Also, Hillary attacked him with everything already and he gave a lot of time to correcting those false narratives (almost too much time with the birther stuff).

If he doesn't get more offensive in the next debate, then it will be more clear what's going on.

The conspiracy here is how the debates were slanted, Trump did the best he could, but unlike Hillary he didn't have a speaker in his ear or the questions in advance.

Man, if you could not have guessed the questions you don't deserve to be president. The tone of the election and the main issues have been clear for months. Trade and Crime are some of the most talked about points so of course there will be questions on them. Preparing for them is common sense. Even Trump was clearly prepared on Trade.

When she was going on about her "stamina" enough to withstand 11 hours of investigating I'm surprised Trump didn't annihilate her on that. She said it like she was proud

That was crazy...like, "I'm way tougher than you when it comes to being grilled for my crimes - since we both know we've got plenty to hide, this is a vital quality for any capable Commander in Chief!"

Like, I get talking like that at the rich-people-cocktail-party, but in front of the American people? Sheesh.

Right?! What the hell, who told her that would be okay to bring up?

Most Americans don't care much about benghazi, especially non-right wing independents. They haven't cared about it since before the RNC.

Unsurprisingly, they both thought repatriating the billions of dollars in offshore tax havens was important as well.

Relax 2 to go. If he doesnt unload on her in the next 2 he is a farce. But i believe this was a slow and steady approach and she dumped her hand. He had some fuck ups for sure but the verdict of if he is a fraud or not will come if he doesnt unload in the next 2

Her rap sheet is a mile long.

So is his.

Why wouldn't it be?

That money is our people's money. It needs to be brought back and put to work here. If we have to take a hit on it because of some unscrupulous companies and the politicians that enabled it, so be it. What could this country and this economy do with an extra $5 trillion?

That money is our people's money.

No. That money is giant corporations money, you mean. It has been shielded from taxes here, and they don't want to have to pay taxes to bring it back. You obviously have almost no understanding of how this screws us all, all but the fat cats, which is why they want it and why both candidates mentioned it and want it. Corporations pay far less in taxes than you and I do. Guess who pays for the expense of war?

So let's leave it all offshore, lose the companies, lose the jobs, make jack fucking shit. Do you really believe that's a good option? What else are you going to do, compel them to repatriate that money with force of violence or imprisonment?

I know exactly how it fucks us, but I offer a real, plausible solution. Bitching and complaining and trying to sound like an authority on something you really don't understand just makes you look like an idiot. Evidently compromise is unforgivable.

You're wrong, and an apologist for giant corporations that pay far less in taxes than you or I do. The solution is for them to fucking pay taxes. YOU obviously, then and now don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

Evidently compromise is unforgivable.

Compromise? You mean allowing theft, theft directly from the other taxpayers that have to pay because the congress and senate, our entire government is an oligarchy.

Your statements are embarrassing. "lose the companies, lose the jobs, make jack fucking shit." Hahhaaa, fool.

Did you find the complete and convincing argument in your reply? Because I didn't.

You don't seem to understand that you can't force a multinational company to do that. They'll just relocate in another territory like Burger King did. They'll just ship the jobs to another country because they can use their foreign money there like Ford did.

And if our government is an oligarchy, what are you doing about it? Gonna go vote for Jill Stein like a good goy?

Good arguments have substance backing up a claim. Good plans are thought through and contain details. You offer neither substance nor thoughtful debate. You think you're so "woke" working for what has to be minimum wage. Poor, deluded sod. Critical thinking has eluded you.

Ignorant Libertarian above.

He even admitted as much when he talked about his new property on the same street as the White House. I think he knows he's not up for the job. He doesn't even want to win. Worst case scenario, his name recognition goes through the roof. There's no bad press in the entertainment industry. The whole thing is one giant production to manufacture your consent and your vote.

Most worrisome was the end, will you support her if she wins? Unqualified yes

It seemed outrageous to even say. We are being conditioned.

I just don't think that Trump was ever serious about running for President. I think he announced his candidacy on a whim in order to get publicity for his TV show and business. Then, when he won a couple primaries, he realized that things had gotten out of control, but he didn't want to just drop out.

He hasn't prepared for Presidential debates because he doesn't want to be President. This is why his performance is amateurish.

It's possible that Trump is not playing all his cards just yet. There are still debates to come.

With all of the undecided voters that were watching, this was an opportune time to lay it all out but he completely blew it. I am suspicious that Trump is going to throw the election and last night was proof that it might just be all bread and circuses

It appeared to me that he came out strong but realized he's pulverizing her so he went and shot himself in each foot and then the eye.

It's just a ginormous reality show where the contestants are hand picked and the winner has long ago been predetermined and the drama is scripted and manufactured. The sad part is that so many people just lap it up.

This is why we've been getting such a surge of "reality shows" in the past decade and a half so we wouldn't be able to see the difference. How is that for conspiracy for you?

I'm sorry but until now you thought he was a genuine candidate? I don't want want to just throw you under the bus but he has been a very bad candidate since 2012. Trump to me feels like type of moron that thinks he can translate business success (take success lightly) into political power. I feel like he thinks he can just house of cards some scheme to lower taxes for himself and still make all the rules. His thought process is 10th grade level and his public speaking abilities are even lower.

maybe its the epstein lawsuit they are holding over his head

yeah they have resurrected some 13 year old's account of something or other but how this manages to trump trump and not chump bill the goat he has his hands full of it tooo and more isnt epstein cofounder of the foundation ? or something ? hmm ? i think dots dots dots

Another woman, Katie Johnson, filed a lawsuit in June 2016 accusing Epstein and Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump of raping her in 1994, when she was 13 years old.[51][52][53][54] Judges Ronnie Abrams and James C. Francis IV will preside over the case against Epstein and Trump.[55] On September 16, 2016, Johnson, known as "Jane Doe", filed to dismiss the current lawsuit. Her lawyer stated that she would re-file the lawsuit with an "additional witness."[56][57][58]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Epstein

Katie Johnson filed to dismiss her current lawsuit just two weeks ago. Likely got paid off. Lawyer promised she would refile later with another witness. Hmmmmm a bit vague. Maybe a signal to Trump to keep losing on purpose or they would refile. If Trump becomes president they definitely would refile.

bill clinton is just as guilty and has more to lose [well his legacy is just about crap these days they really shoulda walked away years ago and fade to dark with some grace?]

true

thats cuz they mules in horse harness jackass mules

whats that mean

think about it mules thinkin they horses ..dressed lik horses still mules

Ah, thank you! The evidence for this is actually pretty compelling.

I could buy this. Clinton is probably the worst nominated candidate in the Democratic party history. But there is no way Trump keeps making these gaffs like this. Like no way he's that stupid to where he just doesn't want to prepare for debates against someone with years of policy and debate experience. He could have took her out with emails, Benghazi, her shady foundation etc. Also he went from someone who just a few years ago said she would make a great president, and endorsing her over Obama in 2008 AND donated large amounts of money to her and her foundation to someone who is now on the opposite side of her??? Yeah right. I don't buy that he's that incompetent.

I really don't think he's doing anything different compared to what he has been doing the entire campaign. Nothing changed. This is the exact same Trump we've seen for months but now he was right next to a career politician. His ego refuses to be tamed and it brought him low.

Do you remember all the gaffes during his campaigning? Now someone can call him out on them live.

Are you surprised? Both Bill Clinton and Trump have ties to Jerry Epstein's child prostitution ring. They're all corrupt bros.

What are Trump's ties? Bill's ties are well documented but but I haven't seen any about Trump other than a poorly phrased off hand comment before he was convicted.

Epstein had every single phone number Trump's ever had in his little black book and it's documented that he'd been over to the house a few times (and Epstein was a member at Mar-A-Lago - Trump kicked Epstein out when he tried to "recruit" an underaged daughter of another member). Virginia Robertson's attorney says Trump wasn't involved with Robertson - my theory is that he didn't partake of Epstein's young girls, but would "order out" for his guests - and that's why so many people are scared to go up against Trump, who seems like a big chickenshit most of the time - he's got dirt and plenty of it on plenty of people and that's how he's managed to skate through as many crooked deals as he's skated and still not be broke (and also explains other powerful people bailing him out time after time). He had dirt on Roger Ailes, too, though not likely via the Epstein connection.

Oh, that's what you meant. I thought you meant he participated but, yeah, he has to know something at least. I've wondered why he hasn't brought up Clintons time on the Lolita Express.

Yea, it honestly felt that way. I really thought he would call her out on a lot of shit.

There were so many good opportunities to hit her hard. Everything he was criticized for, she has done worse and on a larger scale.

When they were discussing the 2008 recession, I have no idea why Trump would not reference the fact that Bill Clinton was the one who repealed Glass Steagal, which was a major contributing factor.

He is a genuine candidate, you can vote for him. If him winning was not part of the "plan" then voting for him throws off the plan at least.

Anyway though, he did bring up Clinton's emails and a bunch of other things like the fact that Clinton has all these 'new' ideas that she didn't implement while being Secretary of State.

He hopefully gets better but it didn't look like he prepared. He really isn't that great of an arguer, doesn't make concise and coherent points, is a stream of consciousness speaker, and he actually somehow made Hillary look good towards the end. She took control of the debate and he went out of his way to try and treat her with kid gloves.

However, with that said, it looked like his strategy is for women now. He has made some good inroads with blacks and hispanics, but he could really use some more of those Hillary women. He doesn't need a lot, but to win this electorate he will need some of them.

He had so many openings, but he couldn't take advantage of them but this was his first debate, and he should get better.

What do you want? Crazy or the Crook. Who would you trust more? Crazy or the Crook. It's a pair made at the asylum. Who will take better care of the USA Crazy or the Crook. It's funny but sad at the same time.

Trump is not a career politician. He is a noob and can't be expected to be an expert. Also he probably does have morons for advisors.

You're confusing the debate from a highschool perspective with the debate from the perspective of influencing voters. From that point of view, it doesn't matter who was most glib and had the ready zingers; what matters is who do people like? Hillary was anything but likeable, while Trump was genuine and was plausible as president. Polls continuing to trend to Trump will confirm this point. Scott Adams predicted that in a couple weeks, barring mishap, Trump will be running unopposed, for all practical purposes.

it worked with Kerry against Bush

ok. Trump did miss so many opportunities to go after Hillary and Holt did not ask HillDog any tough questions.

Hopefully he's just biding his time and leaving the real ammunition for debates closer to the election. People have no memory.

Not that I particularly want him to win, but I sure as fucking hell don't want that bitch to win.

The plutocrats who wanted to offer us a choice between Clinton II and Bush III have made the decision for us.

There's still two more debates, so let's see what happens. I have no doubt he'll spend way more time practicing for the next two. Remember in 2012 when Obama gave the worst debate performance in the history of presidential debates, and yet he still got reelected? It was embarrassing at the time, but he bounced back and still won the election. One bad debate for Donald isn't the end of the world. And one good debate for Hillary doesn't change decades of corruption and failed policies.

Controlled opposition/Limited hangout.

I can't say this is true or untrue. I fear we may never know.

So unless he has morons for advisors and did no preparation for this debate at all

*soft chuckle*

Hegelian dialectics- problem, reaction, solution

Don't be suprised, he's still just some rando dumb rich guy after this whole time. He's not a politician, he isn't a professional liar like Hillary is. That's literally his only redeeming quality, is that he doesn't know how to cheat and bend the system to his favor the way an experienced politician does. His lacks a filter and tends to say too much, lies come out weak and with nothing to reinforce them, they fall apart almost immediately. He tried to lie about his global warming comment and it came back to bite him immediately.

He never stood a chance, and I think he knows it. I did love him trying to bargain his audit in exchange for Hillary's deleted emails, though. The look on her face, lol. Must have not been part of the plan. Atleast he makes it an entertaining puppet show.

The debate I can see the strategy, he was appealing to millions of people who had never heard him talk before and though he was a straight racist/sexist bully with no policy. Becomes sympathetic in their eyes because he was defending himself against a 2v1.

What really worries me is that they BOTH met with the Israeli prime minister the day before the debate. I guess that type of change isn't going to come, or maybe Trump is waiting until he's in office.

What bothered me more than the debate itself was that the post debate coverage was a bunch of hillery fan boys and girls. How can our media even pretend to be unbias when they give absolutly bias coverage. They used to stick a oposing voice in the room now they just all say our girl won, yes, yes, yes, good, and our people think she won also have a good night. BTW close the comment section to make sure the only comments on the event are our own.

Ive felt the same way since the beginning, since before Bernie. How could trumps response to "why didnt you pay any taxes" be anything but "BECAUSE YOU LET ME"?!?!

I was reminded of the crowd-pleasing boxer who took a fall

I think the paid Shillary shills are a waste of money.

https://alibertarianfuture.com/2016-election/super-pac-admits-pro-hillary-commenter-are-actually-paid-shill/

Or maybe he doesn't want to get Vince Foster'd, Trump is far from untouchable and should he step out of line it is entirely to possible to "cause an accident" to himself or his family. Remember Bernie.

Hillary you know exactly what your getting because it's been done before and she will continue the path, Trump might be the genuine article given how openly the powers that be are stacking the deck against him and daring him or silencing others who disrupt.

I think he'll only be able to breath a sigh of relief once he gets into the White House and from there get his own security of those he has trusted and known for he longest, either that or make sure he covers his and his families back.

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If his is being threatened he probably would.

In addition, he is propping up lies about San Bernadino and Orlando being real terrorist attacks,

OH FFS. Did you not read the released 911 transcripts? Omar pledged allegiance to Isis while on the phone with the police and directly said the US must stop bombing syria.

You're right he totally wasn't causing violence and fear to push his political motives /s

edit: if you meant he's propping up the lie and not out right saying it was a false flag my response is no shit. it would be political suicide.

Read this and understand why it was a winning move by Trump: http://blog.dilbert.com/post/151007796236/i-score-the-first-debate

Jesus Christ the shitlibbery is strong here. You guys are acting like Trump lost the debate when he only won it by a narrower margin than was expected. Softening her up for the next fusillade. If you want to be taken seriously don't call someone a "fucking moron" who is a best-selling author and worldwide respected business expert.

If you haven't noticed the entire Hollywood and television industry as well as the entire mainstream media is engaged in an unending Trump campaign that's specifically designed to make the average person think, "hurr durr he has funny hair and he's a racist." Don't be an average person.

Or just go vote for Jill Stein and light up a fucking blunt while Hillary nukes Russia, aka the "in this moment I am euphoric" strategy.

They should've included kaepernick in the debate, he would destroy both of them!

I'd like to laugh in the face of all the_donald fucks who messed up this sub by flooding it with Hillary bullshit. I love to say I told you so, so I told you so!

I can think of a dozen things he should have said. Doesn't mean he's controlled opposition. Doesn't mean I'm going to be a nihilistic ethnomasochistic retard and sell my children into a future of war and persecution by voting for an irrelevant third party.

Guys, there's no reason to sound the alarm, this was only the first debate and he was on the defensive. There was probably many first time watchers and what the hell would people think if he was hammering at her non stop? Also Lester wouldn't let him anyways.

Just calm your tits aight? Assange hasn't even dropped the october surprise yet.

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through sheer will and intelligence and strategy.

Or... his old friends the Clintons, who persuaded him to run in the first place, had their buddies in the secret services and media ensure Trump was their competition, as he's literally the only person dumb enough to make her look good.

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Oh I'm reasonably sure they've fallen out recently but there's historic eveidence of them having a relationship of some kind. The Clintons were at his wedding, though I'm guessing he paid them to be there to fuel his ego.

Nah, you can't let the shootings, murdering, and looting continue in our urban areas. More people dying in our streets than in our disastrous wars.

There needs to be law and order. Trump's absolutely right. Gotta get a lid on those animals destroying the communities that built this country.

You heard Hillary dropping those hints. She thinks the Federal government can help the police force.

Man, if you could not have guessed the questions you don't deserve to be president. The tone of the election and the main issues have been clear for months. Trade and Crime are some of the most talked about points so of course there will be questions on them. Preparing for them is common sense. Even Trump was clearly prepared on Trade.

This is what I thought as well. He needed to establish himself and show that he isn't the wild crazy racist the msm made him out to be. Also, Hillary attacked him with everything already and he gave a lot of time to correcting those false narratives (almost too much time with the birther stuff).

If he doesn't get more offensive in the next debate, then it will be more clear what's going on.

Yep, they are both war hawk Zionists, despite Trump saying a tiny bit about the Fed.

Nah, Hillary will win if she doesnt mess up. Trump sealed the deal last night. She just has to smile and maintain.

They didn't even touch his Foundation - his self-dealing makes the Clinton Foundation look legit (and it isn't, not by a long shot). He's the gift that keeps on giving when it comes to destroying him logically - but people are out of their minds right now, so it's not really hurting him. I suspect they're both shocked that he's doing as well as he is. OP is right - they're in this together.

👏 👏 👏 👏 👏

^. thread's dead baby, thread's dead

What points? It made no send given the topic. Bring coherent arguments if you want point by point rebuttal.

I don't care what you will take or not take. What does illegal immigrants have to do w BLM? You need to show why you think it has anything to do w the discussion. When it obviously doesn't. Not going to waste my time arguing points which are unrelated. It's called derailing the discussion and I won't play that game.

What facts are those exactly?