People can do whatever the fuck they want

People get one chance to live their lives. I don't think anyone should be stopping someone else from pursuing some happiness.

But they can't change genetics with surgery.

Well done Einstein. Case closed everyone.

Edit: Also, fuck you for making me comment in this cesspit.

I don't stick my dick in crazy.

So, my 65 year old neighbor, a demented and confused older man, wants people to believe he is a 6 year old girl, and he dresses and behaves accordingly. The neighborhood tolerates it up to a point, but no, we are not going to let him do whatever he wants on the play ground. It is disruptive to the younger children learning to socialize in a healthy way.

People have to conform to social norms that the society is willing to handle. Sometimes people are going to have to contain their fantasies, or pay the price.

Okay can I be black

Go dye your skin if it makes you happy. why should i care?

Can I identify as wealthy and 7'2 while I'm at it

I dont care. If you arent ill say youre wrong but its really not a big deal because it doesnt really effect me

You can't change your gender.

Yes, you can. What you mean is that you can not (surgery notwithstanding) change your sex (male/female). "Sex" and "Gender" aren't automatically the same thing. Sex is what you are born as. Gender is who you identify with. Gender is a social construct - not a biological one.

AKA gender doesn't exist. Every person has a sex and the term gender has been appropriated to fit whatever agenda the user promulgates. Gender is completely made up.

AKA gender doesn't exist. Every person has a sex and the term gender has been appropriated to fit whatever agenda the user promulgates. Gender is completely made up.

Exactly.

Why do we have a special word for what someone believes they are?

Like for example:

"Sex" describes whether you were born male or female. "Gender" describes whether you identify as male or female.

"Race" determines what race(s) you were born as. "_______" determines what race(s) you identify as.

"Age" determines how many years your body has existed. "_____" determines how many years you feel your body has existed.

And so on. It's like "gender" has become the nice way of saying "delusion", and it doesn't seem like the truly humane thing to do, to encourage someone delusions. We don't do that with the mentally ill, or people who have dementia.

I don't think people who suffer from dysphoria should be treated like crap or anything, there are all sorts of psychological issues people have, there is no reason to treat people with that type dysphoria any differently.

But there has been a very strong, pervasive cultural push to no longer be encouraging/supportive of people with dysphoria to explore where those feelings come from, and eventually be able to accept themselves and their bodies. Instead the push has become to encourage/pressure these people to lie to themselves, become self-deluded and for everyone else to go along with it.

We are told that this is the "right" and "nice" thing to do, but I'm not really sure of that.

We are told that this is the "right" and "nice" thing to do, but I'm not really sure of that.

That, I think, is the whole problem. "We are told"...People are either lazy or scared or not intelligent enough (more likely a combination of the three) to not think for themselves. They are thus easy to convince of anything.

Or, alternately, we spend a whole bunch of time and thoroughly research the issue before making huge decisions about our lives.

What is your definition of 'sex', for clarity's sake?

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It just seems to me like it's meant to take advantage of these people.

If I don't care about someone, and I just want them to shut up and go away, then I could tell them whatever they want to hear, to make them shut up and go away. Then I don't have to deal with them or their feelings.

But if I actually care about and respect someone, then I am going to tell them the truth, even if it means I have to deal with their emotions and such. They are worth it to me, to "deal" with them.

Dysphoria is usually caused by trauma of some sort, whether it is psychological/emotional trauma where the person's sex was targeted, or something like sexual abuse. These people are usually victims and they are hurting, and their dysphoria is a severe symptom.

And it just seems to me like certain government/political groups are trying to take advantage of these people. Tell them what they want to hear, discourage them from actually recovering, and use them as pawns.

That is why it bothers me.

"___" describes which sex your body should have sex with. "Sexuality" describes which sex you believe your body should have sex with.

"___" describes whether your body's lefthanded or righthanded. "Hand dominance" describes which hand you believe should be dominant.

So you spend your time caring what others do with their lives? Other people that you have no contact with. The more interesting question is why you care so much.

The more interesting question is why you care so much.

Because people can't stand others who are different. People want corroboration of themselves by having everyone be the same which transgenders destroy.

I think Freud would say that somehow they consider it an attack on their manhood.

I think Freud would say that somehow they consider it an attack on their manhood.

He might have. In so doing he would expose the fact that men (for the most part) are incredibly insecure about their manhood/sexuality.

I like being unique as well.

Because it affects everybody. Taxpayers shouldn't have to pay for prison inmates and military personnel to get sex change operations. FUCK THAT.

Not really an argument, this same argument is given by pro choice. It's a fallacy. You should be concerned about the people in your society treat themselves and others. Especially when they start harming themselves and others. That's one step closer to allah ahkbar, or other equally heinous things.

No. You have no right to tell anyone how to live. You're using your own biases based on your religious background. These people have no direct influence on your life, none. I do agree however, that hollywood is pushing a transgender lifestyle though. It makes some assholes a lot of money. The people I am defending are the rare people born hermaphrodite, or with a different identity from an early age. These people exist, and deserve to live the way they choose.

Trans-gendered people have existed throughout history. It's part of the human condition.

Listen closely. When you put a murderer in jail are you telling him how to live his life? Because he didn't kill me? Is that an argument? No it's not. And neither is saying a mom has a right to kill her unborn child, because it doesn't affect me. Morals aren't dependent upon who is affected by them. The principle is that society has a right to regulate and decide who is in or out of that society. Murderers? Might be ok in the mafia, not so in most people's ideal society.

Point is most people will never be persuaded by your argument that "it doesn't effect you shut up!" Because they instinctually know a person with fucked up morals when they see one. And they pure and simple don't want them in their society. It doesn't need to have a personal effect on them. The further you draw the legal line from the common place atrocities in history; the better.

Do you know what a hermaphrodite is?

Your thought process is fascinating.

Yes I do. All i said is that your argument is entirely flawed. Didn't say anything against LGBT or hermaphrodites. Triggered?

Because they instinctually know a person with fucked up morals when they see one.

Who gets to decide what are fucked up morals? Who gets to set the standard for a perfect society? You? Your argument is completely nuts.

edit: you really just used the word triggered, as if that means something? Damn, step off child.

Democracy?

Yea if you overreact to a logical argument and assume I'm anti LGBT, you are triggered.

You were triggered the moment you saw this thread, which is why you posted some insanity about murder a few replies above, pretending to be some moral authority. You're a very confused person. Fuck off.

truth is he doesn't want to see transgendered people cuz their icky. But yeah in life we have to deal with things we don't like all the time and it's part of being more mature.

I once had some college classes with a true hermaphrodite person. He/she had a lot of health complications from it, and as a result were only supposed to live for a couple more years. I don't remember why they were dying, but if you can't have empathy for other human beings in this life, then how can one pretend to have morals?

i'll be honest too I see a guy wearing a dress and get a bit grossed out and have a gag reflex, it's involuntary, I think maybe it's part of evolution like how we're grossed out by fat people too, for cavemen in tribes it wasn't healthy for tribe survival. Of course we have had our brains evolve to be able to use reason and logic but we still have the ghost in the machine of that old caveman kind of like a devil on our shoulders and it takes effort to override it.

true I bet also the fluoride in the water leads to hormone problems, testosterone and/pr estrogen getting out of wack.

yeah it's used for their "gay bomb"

Find a better argument that isn't flawed? Instead of shut up and it doesn't affect you?

Cognitive dissonance. You can't accept that the simplistic worldview you were conditioned to believe is a drastic oversimplification. This scenario should/could be illuminating and applicable to many other topics discussed on this forum. But no. Something you can't understand is "cultural Marxism" or some other oxymoron you've been taught to parrot.

Then only worrying thing about the trans movement are crazy yuppie parents who decide kids sexes early on. Some yuppies I had met once decided their baby girl was more masculine so they changed its name and how they dressed it. I get that they're trying to be progressive or whatever, but it's way too reminiscent to insane 50s/60s gender reassignments that really fucked up kids mental health.

Can confirm, I see people buying bread all the time - those immoral monsters!

Tell me what you prefer to be called, and I'll accomodate you. It's pretty simple.

I just won't change the sex on your birth certificate.

Is that part of your job?

Get a new job, then. Problem solved.

Yes, but the big question is why are they seemingly ramming it down our throats (excuse the pun) constantly on the MSM and TV shows? Seems that they'd like to make you think every 5th person you meet is transgendered when that's clearly not the case.

The conspiracy angle is that they are trying to dissolve the notion of the classic family. Not quite sure what the end goal would be, but I'm pretty sure that's on the elites todo list for the world.

Have you seen a college campus recently? Fuck, being "trans" is the fucking trendy thing these days. All the cool kids are trans.

This whole aspect of it is what confuses me the most - it's seemingly way more of a thing now for younger kids (even as young as elementary school) deciding they want to be a different gender.

I can't decide if it's now just "more accepted" now and thus more prevalent or if it's become more prevalent because MSM and the entertainment industry want to talk about it every 6 seconds.

Personally inclined to believe the latter. I once read a story about a ~10 year old starting to do the 'hormone therapy' pills or whatever they are to start the transition process. That's a hard thing for me to fathom. Kids are still learning, developing and changing so much all of the time at that age, and for several years to come.

Yeah I don't get it either. I don't know what the fuck is going on these days. I can tell you it's not because "gender is fluid," as they would have us believe. If that was the case, this transgender trend wouldn't just be popping up now in the last decade.

As far as kids going into transition? That's bullshit, and needs to be stopped. It's one thing for a mature, competent adult to make that decision. But something wholly different for an 8 year old. Just because a boy plays with dolls does not mean he identifies a girl, or even has the mental faculties to understand what the fuck that means.

I do think talking to kids about these things at a young impressionable age in school is largely responsible for this trend. This was the problem with the D.A.R.E. programs in the 80's and 90's. They conducted studies that found kids exposed to the program were more likely to use drugs than those not exposed to it. The idea being, if you don't know something exists then you don't seek it out. I think the same can be concluded with this trans trend. If kids aren't taught that gender is fluid then the likelihood that a boy today will decide to be a girl tomorrow is significantly reduced, I would think.

some kids are male and have a hormone disease where they don't have enough testosterone so they identify with being a female, same with a girl who has not enough estrogen, those hormones decide sex. This is happening more often now due to pollution. Just like how men get less testosterone as the age so develop man boobs. It's quite simple really.

I get what you're saying, but if that were accurate to what is happening we would be seeing a different trend right now.

For example, you say male hormone deficiency leads to identifying as female. Ok, I get that. Then why the fuck aren't they fixing the deficiency? Why are they making it worse? Oh you're a boy with a hormone deficiency. Here, take some hormones that make you more of a girl. It doesn't make any sense. Truth is, this isn't about hormone deficiencies.

If all of this were about hormone deficiencies, we would not be talking about women using the mens room, gender reassignment surgeries, etc. We would be talking about hormone deficiencies and CORRECTING them. But that's not what society is talking about. Instead we're debating about gender being "fluid" and how it can change day to fucking day based on how you fucking feel that day after eating breakfast! It's fucking nonsense. And all the pronoun bullshit. Fuck it drives me crazy.

the person who it happens to doesn't feel anything wrong with it happening, they're a male that feels like a female for example, they don't want to get testosterone boosts cuz they don't mind feeling like a female and in fact want to get the opposite of what you say done, surgeries to get closer to being a female. I understand why, cuz those hormones are in their brain. People go to the doctor to get things fixed they don't like.

And that is totally cool with me. If an adult male goes to the doctor, finds out his hormones are all messed, and decides to not do anything about it, then fine. Whatever.

What bothers me, is when its a child/teenager. By giving that child the wrong hormones the doctors/parents are causing tremendous harm that has consequences unforeseen. And we know the human body continues to develop until the mid 20's. Personally I think anyone that wants any gender altering remedies prior to age 25 should be denied. If you still want to chop it off after that, then go for it.

I hear you, well I get bothered by any unneeded cosmetic surgery where there are worse problems in the world to address, but I don't go too nuts if someone has their own money and pays for it, who am I to judge. on one thing about developing till mid 20s, you could say that is a reason for doing it early, I had pectus excavatum which was caved in chest close to my heart and had surgery to fix it at age 21 but it would have been better to do so at an earlier age as my bones would have been more malleable.

That's sad

Its only several degrees different from old white guys dressing up as clowns and hanging out on the edge of the road where they can run away if they want to.

Society is adapting to a general level of mental illness. People are isolated, lonely, confused, depressed, and ill. They need attention, and this is a crying out.

It also gets to the level of some of them being attention "whores".

It is a conspiracy in the sense of how over blown the whole issue is. Allot has to do with misguided youth and outright loons hijacking there cause to gain a "following"($$$). Google how many live in the US.

Determining how many transgender people there are in the U.S. has been challenging for a number of reasons, but a new study from the Williams Institute estimates that there are approximately 1.4 million of them — twice as many as were previously estimated. Source

Then google that source number.

Noting that younger adults ages 18 to 24 were more likely than older ones to say they were transgender, researchers said that the new estimates reflected in part a growing awareness of transgender identity(<--Tumblr). Source

Then be blown away that they really are less than .06% of the population and possibly even half that based on a inflated number by confession. A number that's based on the growth of "awareness"(They are talking about people who are coming out) aka social media.

It's all media hype bullshit with a hand full of legitimate transgenders who are now felling ostracized and having there voices stolen by certifiably deranged people. If you just look at the platforms its being pushed on. Tumblr, Face book, Reddit, NYP, every fucking news network. These are all tools of the establishment.

One in four males are psychopaths and we are not even bringing in the female persuasion. Source I believe this to be the answer for the large surge of new transgenders. They fit the bill. A bunch of "look at me" and "my way or the highway" cunts in regards to all but a hand full popular transgender channels on youtube. I see it as the Tumblr culture is spilling over.

Plus with the government getting involved and states recognizing new gender laws. No doubt in my mind its all a psyop. Even the LGBT want to remove the T from LGB for being absolutely insane. Need I say more? I honestly feel terrible for those who truly are transgender and then have to deal with people like this cunt and this dick bag pilfering money on there legitimate cause.

Either way live your life the way you want. But don't fuck with me or were going to have problems. Like me being your boss and you showing up defining your new gender based on whatever the fuck is trending on tumblr this week. Ain't no one got time for that bullshit. I don't pay based on gender I pay based on performance. Your gender has nothing to do with 99% of the job market.

And I haven't even touched the gorilla in the room regarding doctor assisted transgender mutational and suicides rates thereafter. Which slides into other mental disorders regarding gender dysphoria. A known and scientifically proven disorder.

I'm also not a fan of hormone use. Shit literally can cause you to mirror actual disorders like bi-polar disorder.

In summary it all reeks of TPTB jumping on the social the media uprising on Tumblr and spinning it the max to the point were a minority so tiny that they dont even equate to a single percent end up have massive changes forced on the majority. Its the classic divide et impera to enact laws from which you can expand on. Just got to get your foot in the door.

Sources in order of embedded links.

https://thinkprogress.org/the-american-transgender-population-is-larger-than-we-thought-it-was-ab83126f33a#.tdhgfkuob

http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/research/census-lgbt-demographics-studies/estimates-of-transgender-populations-in-states-with-legislation-impacting-transgender-people/

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/01/health/transgender-population.html

http://www.livescience.com/16585-psychopaths-speech-language.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUVw1pPsTCQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOxyjvOAmwM

People want attention by mutilating themselves. Mental illnesses are hard to identify and treat because these people want to be the 0.1% special interest group.

I don't think we have to take religious freedom or sexual freedom to the point where we agree with people's make believe.

If someone has an operation, that makes them someone who had an operation. You can't erase the fact that you spent x number of years being something else.

So, its a new category, to the extent that someone has an operation. Otherwise, their biological category is what the definition of that category is. Otherwise some 60 year old taxi driver can force me to go along with his fantasy of being a six year old girl and demand to go back to elementary school. It gets ridiculous.

So yeah, the transgender thing needs some sane guidelines to it.

Some suggested reading for you.

I don't get it, why the religious angle? Science uses categories. Give me a TLDR

If you want to talk about complicated issues and fairly precise epistemology, you can't ask for a TL;DR. Good argument doesn't always boil down to two sentences.

Definitions are not observations about the world and therefore are not, in the strictest sense, a point of scientific study.

Definitions of categories in science are used to classify. If you can't classify and abstract reality into meaningful subcategories, then you cannot perform the method of science, you cannot conduct meaningful comparisons. So, from a scientific point of view, the categories and definitions of science are in fact, based on observations from the world.

Efforts to make the issues of gender vague and the categories meaningless are based on the effort of one group to convince another group to go along with newly created categories. The question is whether those new categories are real, or whether they are make believe. Or whether they are newly created categories. Historically, the category of eunuch was a newly created category, one which could be verified and enforced based on observation. These days, make up, a change of wardrobe, name change, behavioral patterns etc. are proposed to serve the same purpose. Either way, its still a new category. Those in the original category can rightly object that the criteria of their category is being changed in its criteria/significance/meaning, that the ambiguity thus created is socially disruptive without sufficient cause. Ultimately society can agree to change its agreement on the matter or not.

Legislation will have to be based on new classification criteria that can be objectively verified. If lab tests are involved, then the state will also have to certify the new statuses with specific state sponsored documentations and identification systems, as noted on a person's ID, etc. Until these matters are resolved, the status of those making gender claims not in compliance with older traditions is tenuous.

As someone who has actually taken Anthropology and Sociology courses I'm not so sure that you understand what gender is. Gender is a cultural construct related to the traits we call Masculine and Feminine and is what leads to people being placed into certain roles. Sex on the other hand is the biological distinction.

could it be those courses lied tho.

Dozens of experts in the fields of Anthropology and Sociology would tell you the same. Any number of sources on the internet would do so as well. Though there are also a number of conspiracy theorists that would refute this, such as elderly conservatives or religious fundamentalists who think that morality is under attack.

The real crux of the matter is that humans still don't fully understand the brain, so it's difficult for us to be completely certain as to what is and isn't biological. For now, science defines gender and sex as being distinct. In a few decades a new discovery might be made that proves this false. Until then, it's important for us in these professions to use the correct terminology.

I know that feeling, what with how many people use disorders in a derogatory manner, like retarded or autistic. Though I may be conflating terminology and definition now...

Anyways, I don't claim to be an expert on the matter at hand and will respect your opinion for I'm not an ardent proponent of transgender identity. Sorry if I came off as antagonistic. All I'm saying is that this aspect of life is a complicated issue with no easy answers - while judging it based on previous methods may be simple and safe we must be willing to accept the possibility that what we think to be evident in life was actually false.

No, in regards to gender one produces testosterone and the other produces estrogen. Either one would have to take supplements to even obtain these hormones in enough supply to superficially change there gender. End of story...

But yes the words Masculine and Feminine are social constructs in the same manner men work and women stay at home.

I hope you didn't pay to much for that education.

Yes, I am well aware of the role that these sexual hormones play in regards to the topic (it's hard not to come across mentions of hormone treatment in discussions on gender reassignment), but focusing on the Biological reasons for things is not the main concern of these social science fields - well biological anthropology might do so but this was a general anthropology course.

it's true they can do what they want and should have the right to it's just sad the dems focused so hard on this and not on the economy at all, if they put liberal economic policies in place then all boats would rise and transgendered people would be able to afford their own bathrooms if they wanted to.

I don't agree with OP, but I do know someone in my life who's 19 and wants to be F2M and I just "do not agree" with her that she's trans. She's a sexual abuse victim and just seems to hate her body. She'll identify as lesbian sometimes, sometimes as trans. When she was w her twin sister, there was all this weird sexual energy. As someone who took years to understand her own sexuality, I dunno how to kindly say "you're not saying what every other trans person I know has said and I think you need to take some time to consider the ramifications of these actions" and having her really hear it. She's still a virgin, never seen a gyno and says her doctor says it's ok to start T without a physical exam? That's fucking crazy, right?

Wish I could start on some t without a physical lol.

Here's a useful primer, if you have a spare half an hour.

You can do what you want to your body but it is not a right to shove it down people's throats and force everyone to accept as normal and courageous. Go take a look at the suicide rates of people who are trans. It's a psychological disorder. It is not courageous. It is not a right to force people what to think about your self mutilation. You don't see me seeking protection from people dissing on white heterosexual males. Equal rights allows people to be offensive and be offended. It's no longer equal if you make some groups able to say and think what they want and limit others outside of that group from saying certain things. I don't care if you wanna do shit like that, you have that right, and I have the right to think and say what I want about it. Just as you may say what you want about my choices. That's freedom. And isn't it great ? It fosters real learning. Real honest exchange of ideas. Even if it hurts, it's better than being muzzled and forced to believe what the media says is acceptable. We are all people and we all have the right to approve or disapprove of anyone elses actions.

Statist pro-ISIS fucks like you are destroying this country.

Fucking spot on beven

10/10 Conspiracy solved

Have you seen a college campus recently? Fuck, being "trans" is the fucking trendy thing these days. All the cool kids are trans.

I once had some college classes with a true hermaphrodite person. He/she had a lot of health complications from it, and as a result were only supposed to live for a couple more years. I don't remember why they were dying, but if you can't have empathy for other human beings in this life, then how can one pretend to have morals?

I like being unique as well.