For PizzaGate Skeptics
680 2016-12-02 by LucifersHammerr
Long post here but I'm earnest in my hope that pizzagate skeptics will give it a read and comment. There needs to be an actual debate rather than just snarky dismissals. The media isn't doing its job. They keep going on about "conspiracy theorists" and "alt-right Trump supporters" while failing to mention any of the relevant information. That alone is suspicious to me.
Please feel free to post this on skeptic boards.
I really don't want to believe in Pizzagate. Perhaps you can convince me I shouldn't.
I think there is too much pedo hysteria in general. It's tragic that men no longer want to work with children. Unlike, say, the relative lack of women in STEM (science doesn't care what gender you are) the lack of men in teaching creates real life harm. Children need both male and female role models, especially at a time when so many mothers are single. Social scientists are increasingly becoming aware of just how crucial men are to early childhood development. I'm not sure what the solution is but clearly something needs to be done. Anyway, long and short is that I'm not remotely interested in spreading false news about pedophilia.
I don't support either the Democrats or Republicans, so I don't have a dog in this fight. Actually, from what I gather most Pizzagate researchers believe this to be a bipartisan scandal.
I also take false accusations very seriously. It would horrify to me learn that I was engaged in a witch hunt. I support the Men's Rights Movement's attempts to draw attention to the plight of men falsely accused of sexual crimes.
One thing we know for certain: there are elite pedo rings currently operating in the United States. Pedophiles make up at least 4 percent of the population, and billionaires are not excluded from that statistic.
Another thing we can say with reasonable certainty: high ranking individuals in intelligence agencies are aware of these rings and probably using them for blackmail purposes. A more horrifying possibility is that pedophiles are deliberately being placed in power because they are compromised.
Bad arguments against Pizza Gate:
It's a "conspiracy theory" and can therefore be dismissed. Apparently the corporate media thinks this is an actual argument. It isn't.
Snopes said it isn't true. See above.
Pizzagate is made up of alt right Trump supporters who hate Hillary Clinton. This is obviously true in some cases, but based on my reading of the Voat forum there are plenty of left wing people involved as well.
if it were true the perps would have been busted. Unfortunately past cases involving elite pedo rings, whether the Fraklin Coverup, the Dutroux Affair, Jimmy Saville etc. display a clear pattern of LEO's covering up for the perps. Why they do this is uncertain. Some of them may be involved. Blackmail may be an issue (there is widespread suspicion that elite pedo rings are run by intelligence agencies). Some LEO's may fear for their lives or those of their families.
There are too many women being singled out for this to be plausible. Pedophilia is a male thing. This is a myth. Some studies have the percentage of female pedophiles as high as 40%.
Parents and grandparents wouldn't pimp out their own offspring. Another myth. Unfortunately busts of low level pedo rings show people doing exactly that.
Politicians are fine upstanding people. I only include this argument because it's a common one for X politician of choice. "Trump's a good man!" "Obama's a good man!" These are emotional arguments. People project their own value systems onto their rulers. This is unwise, since according to Dr. Robert Hare, the world's leading expert on psychopathy, politicians and business leaders are significantly more likely to be psychopaths than the rest of the population.
We have no witnesses. Someone would have spoken out. Pedo rings are often busted by computer divisions in LE. Oftentimes none of the children will have said a word. Pedophiles tend to be quite good at ensuring silence through shame and fear. This is especially true of powerful pedophiles. Nor is it outside the realm of possibility that some of these children are being killed. It's a terrifying thought, but we're talking about people who have no problem killing millions in unnecessary wars of aggression.
Coincidences all?
I don't necessarily agree with the following arguments but for the sake of narrowing things down I'll pretend as though I do:
The pedo symbols on the two businesses next to and across from comet, one of which works with "at risk youth", are a coincidence.
The night performances usually just involve adults and teens.
Sasha Lord working with "at risk" girls in juvenile detention is a coincidence.
The painting, now removed, of a guy jizzing while playing ping pong with an alien and the words "Shut up and Fuck" was inappropriate for an all ages establishment, but these guys are just sex crazed, not pedophiles.
Having a sleepover at a pizza restaurant involving both children and adults isn't that unusual (?) It's a community place.
Tony Podesta's art collection, which specializes in images of children, babies, abused children, dead children, cannibalism, pigs, pig-human hybrids, and photographs of naked kids is admittedly bizarre but he just has really strange taste.
John Podesta, who has a picture portraying cannibalism in his office, and used to have an image of a butchered pig as his screensaver before colleagues demanded he remove it, views cannibalism as a metaphor. He's not an actual cannibal (duh). Also, the fact that he lovingly describes his job during college of butchering pigs may imply that he is a psychopath, but not all psychopaths are pedophiles or cannibals.
Marina Abramovic, whose "art" revolves around satanism, pedophilia and cannibalism, is just an attention whore. Shock art is her gimmick.
It is a coincidence that the painter Scott G. Brooks, associated with the Comet crew, paints pictures of babies and toddlers and half-pig-half human babies and toddlers being tortured, sexually abused, and fed excrement [warning NSFL]
Tony's close life long friendship with pedophile "Denny" Hastert is a coincidence. There is no evidence that they molested kids when they taught together in Japan. The "certain unnamed island" in Japan that Hastert was allegedly going to "flee to" after he was busted probably just referred to a getaway vacation house, not a place where he and Tony molested kids beyond the prying eyes of other teachers.
The giant sub-basement Tony created in his home is for art just like he said, not anything sinister.
Obama moving two doors down is irrelevant. No one suspects Obama of anything.
The food references in the emails are odd but John is a foodie and especially likes pizza and hotdogs, like Obama. You'd expect lots of odd food references. Perhaps they were talking about drugs or escorts.
Amanda Kleinman, who performs at Comet and is listed first on their "friends" list, is fascinated by pedophilia and likes to joke about pedophilia and reference it in her music videos to provoke people. Her music video "Neutered Noel", which features images of Chuck E cheese, pizza and pizza related images intercut with babies, children, puppies, babies wearing pizza outfits and a baby wearing a "sugar babies" outfit intercut with images of rape and sexual torture is an example of this.
That woman investigating the Clinton Foundation and child trafficking in Haiti committed suicide because she was depressed. She was not murdered. The same is true of all those past associates of Hillary who committed suicide. Hillary has that effect on people.
Okay. So as you can see by my not-so-subtle sarcasm I'm not entirely convinced by all of the above arguments. However, believe it or not, I'm still willing to entertain the notion that these are all coincides. I mean, fantastical coincides do happen in life.
Here's what I'm having a hard time getting past:
Jimmy's Instagram. This is what got everyone interested, yet the media refuses to even quote Mr. Alefantis in their "debunking" articles. So far the only explanation I've seen from Pizzagate skeptics is that they were all engaging in "dark humor." This doesn't make sense to me. I have a dark sense of humor. I've laughed at pedophile jokes. But these are pictures of real children who are known to the people in question. It would never occur to me in a million years to make a pedophilic joke if a relative sent me a picture of his child. Yet here are these people doing it not once but multiple times. "Chickenlovers," "Hotard," "Why does daddy like it in the butt," "Gay baby", Baby for sale -- "don't touch", "Yum…baby" etc. I also find the non-sexual comments strangely objectifying. People not using the children's names but saying things like "Ginger!" (red haired baby), "That's a she baby not a he baby" etc. Who the fuck talks like this?
That fucking mole on Tony's forehead. The police sketches of the two suspects in the abduction of Maddie McCan do not roughly resemble the Podesta brothers -- they are an exact fit. Right down to the mole on Tony's forehead. Long before Pizzagate broke, Maddie's parents were suspected of being complicit in the disappearance/murder. While it would be absurd to imagine the Podestas creeping around a rich neighborhood abducting kids, their presence would make sense if the parents or someone close to the parents were part of an elite pedo ring. Apparently they were already into swinging and BDSM. Perhaps something went wrong during the night's "entertainment." Another "coincidence": John deleted his emails the exact date she disappeared.
Tamera Luzzatto referring to "raw and uncut" time with a toddler. Luzzatto was Hillary's chief of staff. She and her husband were referred to in an article as the "real life Underwoods" from House of Cards, implying a Machiavellian and psychopathic bent. In one of the emails about a pool party, she refers to three kids as "entertainment" and mentions their specific ages. I was willing to dismiss that as the ravings of an old crazy lady who has a weird way of talking about kids, but I'm having a very difficult time understanding "raw and uncut" outside of a sexual context.
Cumulative evidence. Any single fact about PizzaGate, if viewed in isolation, would be eyebrow-raising but not enough to suggest anything sinister. But when all of it is viewed together, it does paint a picture, does it not? Are people really "crazy" for thinking this warrants investigation?
Edit: I should also point out that at this point, Pizzagate is no longer just about the Podestas, the Clinton Foundation and Comet Pizza. People are pursuing a lot of interesting leads. One of the really disturbing things so far revealed is that an abnormally large number of groups specializing in work with "at risk" youth and child trafficking have pedo symbols for their logos and links to sketchy individuals (naturally people are also drawing unwarranted conclusions and seeing stuff that isn't there). At minimum that should evoke concern.
Edit 2: Two people so far have attempted to refute two of the four points I ended with.
Re: Luzatto. The statement reads, "you can spend some time with her online, raw and uncut." It has been suggested that she was proud of the baby (described as the "future ruler of the world") and was offering to show people "raw and uncut" footage of this future leader. Still sounds weird as hell. Perhaps she's just gotten a little loopy in her old age?
Re: Podestas and McCann. It is claimed that the police sketches are of one person. Others claim investigators later revised their first impression and believe multiple people were involved.
Edit 3: I should stress that I'm not here to "prove" pizzagate. I was serious when I said I would rather be proven wrong and that I take false accusations very seriously. If people make compelling arguments I will revise my current position, which is basically at least some aspects of pizzagate are real.
Edit 4: Two posters have challenged the "cumulative evidence" point. One suggests that "autists" are finding patterns that aren't there. I think this is definitely true of people who think every symbol or food reference is a tell, but false on the specific points I listed, which do paint a coherent picture. It is also claimed that people are shocked by the punk rock and gay BDSM scene. I have found this to be true of some of the youtube Christian posters covering the story, but not for pizzagate researchers in general. It is specifically the pedophile stuff that people are concerned about, not kinky sex.
The other poster claimed that the cumulative evidence is largely based on art and innuendo. I responded with what I think is a relevant point: if the intention of eg Abramovic and Kleinman was to shock people and engender discussion about cannibalism and the torture and rape of children through their art, they have responded to these allegations in a very odd way. Instead of saying "I wanted to provoke discussion of X, Y and Z and how pedophilia and child predators affect society etc." or even just "I wanted to piss people off" they have simply claimed that everything is "fake news" by Donald Trump supporters. Alefantis likewise.
Edit 5: One poster suggested that we should stop specifically accusing these people of being pedophiles since there is no hard evidence. I agree, but I don't see how it would be possible to enforce such a rule. He also suggested hiring a P.I.
Edit 6: I think this situation would be relatively easy to resolve. All it requires is...actual journalists. Ask Tony about his art collection. Why is he obsessed with pedophilia and images of children being abused? Ask Tony where he was on the day of McCan's disappeared. Find out if the Podestas were in Portugal. Ask Kleinman what she was trying to convey by her music video The Neutered Noel. Ask Abramovic about the pedophilic photography and what the intent was. Ask Alefantis about each specific sexual reference in the Instagram photos.
If there's nothing to see here, and this is nothing more than a witch hunt, why not just clear it up? If journalists did their jobs then this matter could have been settled weeks ago. Dismissing everything as fake news and ignoring people's concerns are only adding to the suspicion.
395 comments
180 I_Fuck_Milk 2016-12-02
Here's my problem with the whole situation. Yes, I agree there's no hard evidence, so the conspiracy isn't 100% proven. That being said, people are dismissing it as having no basis in reality without any sort of investigation into the facts. Any sort of crime or scandal has a period where it's unproven, and that's where an investigation comes in, and the media is trying to skip that step altogether.
77 accountingisboring 2016-12-02
Exactly! The starting point is always speculation/suspicion that a crime has occurred. That's is where an investigation comes into play. The MSM waving it all away as just nonsense is very telling.
51 I_Fuck_Milk 2016-12-02
This is the way I look at it:
The media is all very calculated. They don't write or dismiss any story without a reason, so what's the reason for dismissing this one? Surely if it was all just bullshit they would write some piece dismissing it that would address the actual facts and not just bullshit.
The reason (and this was communicated from the top, the people that own the media) is that they can't even get near the facts without giving up the truth.
There's no other reason that makes sense. If it wasn't so pervasive they would still be able to write their piece and lie. They have such a large and complicated network of lies that they can't even touch the story in a legitimate sounding way.
16 accountingisboring 2016-12-02
It really is so massive how could they possibly dance around it? They can't.
24 brxn 2016-12-02
The way mainstream media handles 'against the narrative' subjects like this is it creates an onion around them.
For example, a ridiculously obvious onion around 9/11.. We all (r/conspiracy people) know for a fact that 3 huge buildings fell - but the vast majority of Americans still think that 2 buildings fell.. And the media will continue to report that 2 buildings fell over and over.. despite the evidence and fairly common knowledge of 3 buildings falling.. in order to keep the knowledge at a minimum and confuse the issue. But, you can still find mainstream reporting of tower 7 falling so the media can say they reported it..
Meanwhile.. there's still tower 5 that almost no one talks about. Don't expect any reporting on that ever.
And this is how they keep basic facts in dispute and prevent any assembly of unity or concensus on any non narrative subject.
18 I_Fuck_Milk 2016-12-02
I agree that it's all just to create confusion around the subject.
Here's how they're handling this one (as well as some logical fallacies of their argument):
First they're passing off as much of this as possible as Russian propaganda (despite none of this actually coming from Russia). These intelligence agencies that are claiming the Podesta emails are from Russia are likely implicated and have a vested interest in discrediting it.
As soon as they get a critical mass of people and the media to parrot this narrative, they can just ignore it and act like it's all false (even if it was from Russia it could be true and would then deserve addressing). If you keep saying something enough and have enough credibility a lot of people will believe it. The problem is the media should have lost a large amount of credibility after getting the election so incredibly wrong and attacking anyone that was actually getting it right.
So then all the stuff they can't claim comes from Russia gets attacked with the "fake news" label. The problem with that is this stuff is really just facts, and you're supposed to draw your own conclusions. The media really doesn't like stories that let you draw your own conclusions, especially when they're likely not to be the ones they want.
These people are so caught up in their own nets of lies that they won't let the media cover the real news at all. Wikileaks hardly got any coverage. The ND protests got virtually no coverage (to the point where no one really has any idea what's happening there, on purpose), this is getting no coverage.
The problem of course being that too many Americans lack the ability and initiative to search for facts and draw their own conclusions critically. It's all about putting a label on the story that allows them to credibly ignore it, because the net of lies is so big that they can't touch the story without mixing up the story and giving it credibility.
7 accountingisboring 2016-12-02
That is precisely what is happening, but I think a lot of people are catching on to that narrative. They may not be talking about it on social media platforms, but they are IRL, if they feel comfortable enough to open up about it and not be mocked. Just like people did not want to admit to being a Trump supporter for fear of being labeled and mocked. The media has done serious damage to this country internally.
-2 AmadeusK482 2016-12-02
Then why don't the people creating blog posts, hashtags, and YouTube videos approach LEO instead of spamming their own channel??
2 The_ChaplainOC 2016-12-02
I've seen lots of posts with evidence and links that tag the FBI.
1 corn_of_action 2016-12-02
LEO are complacent in this. If they're not, they're naive and their bosses are complacent. Reaching out to these low level drones is a good way to paint a target on one's back. Are you paying attention at all???
edit: dumb ass
48 weltallic 2016-12-02
America has yet to apologize for destroying Sinead O'Connor for saying the catholic Church was systemically covering up and moving around pedophiles guised as priests, a conspiracy organized from the very bottom of the hierarchy to the very top echelons, with the number of child victims and shuffled molestors so high it was incalculable.
The American media climbed over each other in a mad throng to denounce and punish her.
14 The_ChaplainOC 2016-12-02
I loved Sinead for that.
10 trumptrumpandaway 2016-12-02
I remember watching that when I was a kid. So THAT's why she did that!
7 pizzahedron 2016-12-02
ripped that pope to shreds.
4 corn_of_action 2016-12-02
FUCK the pope
13 SugarsuiT 2016-12-02
The people dismissing it are CTR.
26 Cannot_go_back_now 2016-12-02
Not everybody disagreeing with you is fucking CTR, holy shit, most people just don't fucking see it your way, is that too hard to get?
Besides which wouldn't you think CTR is out of a job since the person who hired them in the first place lost? But nah fuck it "people disagree with me must be CTR/shill/pedo/etc." rinse, repeat, make up a new dehumanizing term for the opposition for the next "conspiracy" outrage.
38 Rayfloyd 2016-12-02
You do know they're still here right?
-17 Cannot_go_back_now 2016-12-02
You do know I think you are retarded for even replying to me with that?
Even if they are here who cares, they obviously couldn't effect the election so why do you guys still rely on them to be your crutch whenever you're faced with an opinion that isn't just the usual echochamber circlejerk of bias confirmation?
You want to get people to believe then engage the parties who don't agree, find out what they don't believe and debate why it is/isn't bullshit or are you afraid they might make sense and bring the circlejerk to a screeching halt?
29 Rayfloyd 2016-12-02
Congratulations on being agressive for no apparent reason.
If they can or not influence an election is irrelevant. The mass peddling of lies towards a narrative to steer feeble minds is relevant and worrying.
We try with those who we feel are reasonable and with which a civil discussion can be had. A real debate you know where each person illustrate their evidence and rebuke the other's? CTR does not do that, they put their heads in the sand and scream LALALA at the top of their lungs while interjecting with racist, bigot, islamophobe or whatever the next hip word becomes.
-11 Cannot_go_back_now 2016-12-02
Why? You answered me with something that I already addressed that I don't care if they are here or not, you felt the absolute need to point out "durr you know they're still here right" I don't care, and I seriously doubt they are, I think that CTR packed it in and counted their money once Hillary lost, because that was all it was ever about for them anyway, greed and profit.
The only astroturfers and whitewashers still on the site that are clearly noticeable come from r/The_Donald and the various right/alt-right propaganda sources, how about we whine about them instead amirite? Nah why bitch about r/The_Donald at all right? That just shows the bias right there.
Obviously not if that was the whole point of concern here in r/conspiracy when the news that they were here broke, we were all so worried about them influencing the election, yet Hillary lost, so why do they still matter? and why do we still think someone is paying them when they failed to win vs. the right wing's own propaganda machine and fake news crap?
Please don't try to act like the Right/Alt-Right isn't doing this as well, and more successfully obviously, and if you can't see this then obviously you've been in your bubble for to long and need to start checking some sources on your own.
What's the phrase? Oh yeah "if it's too good to be true, it probably isn't" if you think that an article caters to each and every part of your bias guess what? You're the one being manipulated.
Bullshit, I've been on this sub for five years, don't try and act like our userbase is a beacon of being reasonable, half of the time anyone gives a dissenting opinion it's downvoted to hell with no attempt to debate, just like my initial reply in this conversation was.
Are you just trying to show me you understand the concept of debating for a pat on the head? Also a debate doesn't necessarily need evidence, as long as both sides are knowledgeable on the subject, but evidence clearly helps make the case.
Lmfao dude if that's who you think CTR is then you have no clue what CTR is/does/or would do, and besides what you described is exactly what people in this sub do as well where we scream LALALA at the top our lungs while injecting shill, CTR, pedo, etc. or whatever the next hip dehumanizing term becomes.
Anyway, CTR is about changing the narrative, and brigading clicks, whitewashing truth, so the idiots screaming racist, bigot, islamophobe or whatever are the run of the mill hardcore base of either the democrats in general or Clinton in particular, and honestly if they said it in regards to some asshole being a racist, a bigot, or an islamophobe they are just being a normal person calling out an idiot for being racist, a bigot, or an islamophobe, seriously man a bit of self-awareness can lead you down new corridors of life.
So what CTR would actually do is dispute "facts" and statistics with "facts" and statistics that would favor the person they are employed by, and they would also downvote anything negative and upvote anything positive, all of this would fall under whitewashing, the astroturfing comes in where they start feeding us bullshit articles like crap from HuffPo or the DailyKOS and other extremely biased crap like those rags, the Right-Wing version of this crap would be junk like Breitbart and RedState, and like a billion other fucking sites, if I could I'd give you my filter list I have most of them blocked both Right and Left and I add more pretty much every day.
My final point on this is that I truly believe that CTR's main function here on Reddit was to "poison the well" put up a boogeyman that we couldn't pin down who is and who isn't and let our userbase turn ourselves against each other, believe me I'm sure there is more to it but here we are, almost a month after the election still chasing that fucking boogeyman and attacking one another because that boogeyman helped put it in all of our heads that anyone that doesn't agree with me must be with the boogeyman, and now we have one giant sitewide confirmation bias circlejerk that is still split into two teams, meanwhile the conman heading to the whitehouse in January is laughing all the way while picking establishment and Wall St. shills the whole entire time.
21 Rayfloyd 2016-12-02
I want to let you know that I have read the above. I also want to let you know that you are letting yourself get controlled by emotions and the very same lies from the narrative I've just talked about. A lot of the things you've said are irrelevant to the discussion of Pizzagate.
Like people have said (the more reasonable ones at least) this shit is a non-partisan issue, keep politics out of it. If Trump gets lumped in he will, if there's dirt on him, it will be uncovered. People around the world are digging into this. From both sides.
Man you sound so agressive throughout that text, take it easy man, rest a bit, the world is a scary place for all of us.
Regards,
A neighbor from the north.
4 Cannot_go_back_now 2016-12-02
See lmfao this is exactly what I'm talking about, just because you don't see it my way instantly I'm being manipulated? I actually think you are in fact the one being manipulated, see how this works, next you can say I'm stupid or an idiot, but I can say the same thing because I feel the exact same way about the exact opposite shit. Do you get what I'm saying?
The responses to me should barely touch on #pizzagate anyway since I was responding to the idiot claiming that "the only people dismissing it are CTR hurr durr" so nice deflection.
This is such a bullshit statement that I think I can smell it through my screen, and yet it's simply another deflection. This is a political issue because you guys made it one, you guys are so desperate to have your biases confirmed that Hillary and Bill are the satanic monsters #pizzagate is painting them as, now like I said I haven't seen enough evidence to say they are, but I have seen enough to say they might be, well maybe not satanic that whole aspect smells like bullshit too, especially since it's all based on a batshit crazy modern artist.
No it won't a.) because wikileaks refused, admittedly to release anything about Trump so we have no idea and b.) just about everyone digging are all Trumpbots only focused on finding Clinton shit and through their biases will most likely ignore any Trump shit, or even worse justify through mental gymnastics.
I'll admit there are people digging into it from both sides, but the sides are hardly balanced at all, and all I've seen so far is speculation, accusations, and harassment, and it all just echoes the Boston Bombing faux pas where someone said "we found the bomber" and no we didn't.
What you mistake for aggressiveness is actually passion, I'm passionate about this stuff and going about things the right way, I'm passionate about my country, I'm passionate about right and wrong, and believe me man I'm passionate when it comes to actually putting pedos away.
I have a step daughter who was molested by her grandfather on my wife's exes side of the family when she was four, luckily for that fuck he's dead and my 14 year old daughter got her ass grabbed by a fucking TA at her middle school, not once but a few times, and then it was reported and the school covered it up, so I have a legit beef with kid touchers, but it doesn't mean we should go after anyone without concrete evidence, just like I couldn't do shit legally against my kid's TA without the concrete evidence the school tried to hide in order to maintain their liability. This shit sucks but there is a process and we should be using it but #pizzagate has not tried to use the process from what I can see, they just want to find shit on the Clinton's and that is all that matters to them, until that aspect changes I'll still be combative with all of the dumbshits that want me to blindly accept bullshit.
15 Rayfloyd 2016-12-02
Deflections are what you have done since the beginning of this thread.
Listen, you clearly have more time to write answers to people than I do and clearly having a civil discussion with you is impossible so I'll leave it at that and let the votes and the reasonable critical thinking of people to judge the content of our comments.
Good day.
1 Cannot_go_back_now 2016-12-02
Bye bye, sorry your fee fees got hurt, but please do enjoy burying your head in the sand and thinking about how everyone is being manipulated but you and people with your biases, because yer so smart and we're so dumb and easily brainwashed, I'm sure that'll work out for you in the long run.
-2 wtfhaxpwn 2016-12-02
I see more deflections from you than from cannot**. He or she made good points and you are accusing and derogatory. Might be good to look at it again.
2 craftySox 2016-12-02
This raised my eyebrow, did this actually happen? A quick search gives me this:
http://theweek.com/speedreads/645239/julian-assange-tells-megyn-kelly-why-wikileaks-isnt-releasing-dirt-donald-trump
If that's what you're talking about then it seems you have it wrong, would love to know if it was something else though.
That said, people are getting way out of hand over the left/right issue. I know Youtube has never been a beacon for humanity but the actual racism and hate spouted there from some of those on the right is disgusting. It's all you see on some videos.
I can't stand the SJW name-calling either, but put up against those guys they kinda have a point.
To the whole confirmation bias thing, it's the way our minds work unfortunately. With the internet and message boards it is really, really easy to fall in to that trap too. My stance is basically anti-Hillary and ends there, I think it would be helpful for me and a lot of others if there was some effort put in to listing the shady shit Trump has been involved in - I just don't care enough to do it myself and don't want to read through overblown crap about his 'racist' statements.
1 Cannot_go_back_now 2016-12-02
Try reading their AmA from a month ago, whomever is running wikileaks now is somebody's shill, not sure who, but definitely somebody's.
-1 TheWiredWorld 2016-12-02
1 Cannot_go_back_now 2016-12-02
Oh cool I can use it to go see your mom again.
-3 wtfhaxpwn 2016-12-02
Well said, the amount of paranoia in this sub is getting in the way of proper discussions. Good job adressing it. —10, fucking really guys?
2 Cannot_go_back_now 2016-12-02
It's okay it is as expected, this is how the good old r/conspiracy echochamber works, the narrative is challenged and they try to silence whomever is interrupting the circlejerk.
1 wtfhaxpwn 2016-12-02
It hasn't always been this bad.
2 Cannot_go_back_now 2016-12-02
You're right, it hasn't but it's been close at times.
21 thebabyseagull 2016-12-02
David Brock and his virgin vault dwellers ruined all credibility reddit had.
They infested the site so badly it caused me to question the motivation of every single post.
The safest thing to do IMO is to assume anyone with an opposing view to me is CTR.Its the only way to ensure that the virgins aren't influencing your opinion in the direction they want.
Its a bit Sad and paranoid maybe but I take hart in knowing that they will never be able to change my mind about pizzagate and that ironically it is David Brocks fault.
14 Cannot_go_back_now 2016-12-02
Dude the saddest thing about your whole reply is that you actually believe that's an acceptable solution.
And don't blame it on Brock, he did not force you to take that idiotic stance, you took it on your own.
How about engaging people and finding out why they don't believe and debate the points, if you have the mental capacity to do so, otherwise you'll just keep using the CTR crap as a crutch to get out of doing any kind of critical thinking and outside parties will continue to think this sub is retarded.
12 thebabyseagull 2016-12-02
How would you ever know who is ctr?
2 Cannot_go_back_now 2016-12-02
Why would it matter at that point? If you're right and you're confident in your evidence surely they would swayed, right?
Regardless you have a chance to make an unbeliever into a believer, like I said if you have faith in the evidence shouldn't you be jumping at that chance to gain more allies?
But no you're just worried about some amorphous paid per response person that most likely isn't even around anymore, like I said before you can't circlejerk things into reality, sometimes you have to actually have proof.
13 thebabyseagull 2016-12-02
I'm not confident in my evidence,I didn't say I was.
I just think this is the safest assumption.
I doesn't stop me from thinking critically or examing any evidence presented to me.
I am just aware that paid propagandists are operating in sub's I frequent and want to manipulate my opinions to be more in tune with there pay masters.
I can and will drop this attitude when I think the time is right.
I'm not looking to win anyone over to my way of thinking or gain allies its just what I think is the best course of action at this particular time.
5 Cannot_go_back_now 2016-12-02
Then why would you bother sticking up for the point then if you aren't confident in the evidence? Especially with the #pizzagate stuff, accusations of being a pedo can go a long way socially and can ruin someone's life completely, wives leave husbands, and vice versa, kids alienate from parents, employers fire the accused, but yet it's all good because once the accusation is leveled and goes viral you wash your hands of it, how would that be okay by any means?
I get that you didn't say you were confident, I was just trying to make a point, and I'd like to think I did.
What is the old saying about "assuming"? You don't level accusations like this over a fucking assumption, that's just being a shitty human being and being okay with going along with the old mob mentality.
Really? Because you sound kind of biased about it already, which in turn would hinder your ability to critically think because your mind is made up already. Ergo you are not critically thinking.
Yes but yet you seem to think that accepting paid propaganda from one side is okay, because it confirms your beliefs, whereas you think the otherside is wrong because your accepted form of propaganda says that the other side is wrong and thus is in line with your biases. Get my point on this?
Well aren't you the sassy little one.
So are you looking to win anyone over and gain allies or are you not? That sounds very contradictory to me, you aren't looking to but it's the best course of action so that means you are?
Either way it doesn't matter because you should be, and if you aren't it just means that you aren't confident in the subject matter and thus your opinion shouldn't matter than, right? Because we can circlejerk about #pizzagate all we want but at some point someone has to put their big boy pants on and call bullshit or declare it as "the truth" we can't sit around and bitch forever because as we sit here and do it right now people that believe this conspiracy are calling in and sending death threats to the people involved, regardless of guilt, just on perception, and the longer we circlejerk about it the worse it's going to get for everyone, or the Admins will do something retarded like censoring the words "pizza" "gate" and anything else related to it sitewide, because we all saw how dumb fucking Spez could be with the editing shit from last week.
7 thebabyseagull 2016-12-02
When I say not confident in my evidence I mean regarding ctr.
I don't really know how wide spread they are,how much they post ,where they post etc.
Pizzagate is another story.
I'm 100% sure that Allenfantis should be investigated by the police.
There is more than engouth evidence to be concerned for the wellbeing of children he has access to.
Likewise podesta
There is engouth evidence to suspect him of involvement in the McCann case.
He should be investigated by the police to rule out any connections.
1 Cannot_go_back_now 2016-12-02
Dude nobody is, except for people actively working for them, and I doubt even them, so their Information and executive hierarchy are probably the only ones that would know.
I am only basing things on my observations, my professional opinion from an IT perspective, and what makes sense to me. All of it is conjecture but like I said, it's my opinion, like it or not but that's the way I see it.
Really? Well enlighten me, why do you think you're an expert on this subject matter? I know I'm not, but why are you so certain you have it right?
Then why hasn't the evidence been forwarded to them? Why have they not acted upon it? Why are you so certain of it, I mean 100% you must have complete confidence that this person should be put away and have their life ruined, why?
Like I said, why? What's the proof? Why is it not in police hands? Why is it being ignored? Why? WHy? WHY? (get my point)
I'm just saying I don't want to hear about people's fee fees (feelings) I want the evidence, the proof, then we can debate it and either you'll convince me or you'll see where the evidence falls short.
Podesta seems like a complete POS political hack, but outside of that like I said above, twice, evidence, not fee fees, show me.
See the linking this crap to McCann is really what made me start taking a shit on #pizzagate, I studied the fuck out of that case when it was big news and I feel it's pretty obvious the parents were at fault, ala Jon Benet Ramsey. Don't get me wrong, I'm not dead set on that opinion though, but it's whom I always felt was the obvious suspect.
The main issue I have with pulling in the McCan case is that #pizzagaters are desperately trying to "kitchen sink" the issue, where suddenly everything is related to #pizzagate, and the world simply doesn't work that way, and only in r/conspiracy and similar places is that even an acceptable practice of investigation.
Everyone involved should be investigated by the police before they are ruled out on any of this, but the main issue most of us have about #pizzagate is that all of this should have gone to the police first, this way they can clear the innocent before we start lynching people.
But you guys did it ass backwards, you guys connected as many of the dots as you can, real or imagined, and then you started harassing them, threatening them, and thereby tainting any investigation the police may eventually begin. It was stupid and foolhardy, and this type of crap only harms the innocent and the potential victims, and probably has the real people behind these things, if they actually happened, on the run or covering shit up.
2 thebabyseagull 2016-12-02
Investigated by the police does not mean be put away and have your life ruined,he could be innocent but at this stage an investigation is the very least that should happen.
The proof that a police investigation is needed is the disturbing Instagram pictures of a little girl taped to table while his friends make strange comments.
Pictures on the Instagram of small coffins.
Pictures on the Instagram of piles of cash next to a bottle of date rape drugs.
Pictures on Instagram of babies for sale.
Pictures on an Instagram of what they mockingly call the kill room.
That's before you bring up the weird art works that line the walls,the fact that in a recent interview he lied about having a basement and the fsact the restaurant on the same street has proven FBI pedophile symbolism as its logo.
On the McCann Podesta angle
The fact that they match the e fits to the letter,right down to the mole on Podesta's cheek combined with Podesta's connection to known paedophiles(the senator,his childhood friend,his name escapes me) is cause for alarm,especially when you relse that Podesta's mass deleted emails the day after her disappearance.There is also an email referencing a"Madeline".We know Podesta's visited Portugal a number of times via the Clinton foundation and we know he was out of the country at the time.I find it odd that no one has provided an alibi for him,it should be easy engouth to prove he wasn't in Portugal at the time.
The fact that these people post openly on Instagram suggests that the police and alphabet agencies would have known for a long time and did nothing,they were certainly informed at the start of the pizzagate storm,the fact they haven't acted causes people to assume that they are not going too.
There are many problematical with crowd sourcing what should be a police investigation, we can agree on that at least.
1 corn_of_action 2016-12-02
You're wasting energy, organic portal alert, /u/cannot_go_back_now
0 corn_of_action 2016-12-02
Wasting energy, organic portal alert, fuck /u/Cannot_go_back_now
0 corn_of_action 2016-12-02
You're a fucking shill and an asshole, fuck you.
2 corn_of_action 2016-12-02
It's not sad or paranoid to discard all false information and only take what fits as true with your massive catalog of life experiences. You have the power of discernment on your side, use it.
-7 [deleted] 2016-12-02
[deleted]
8 thebabyseagull 2016-12-02
In a world where the "sane" ignore blatant criminal activities and child sex crimes and are happy to have their thoughts dictated to them by Brocks virgin vault dwellers,i take it as a compliment that people would consider me insane.
Thanks
-5 [deleted] 2016-12-02
[deleted]
6 pixl_graphix 2016-12-02
You live in a world where the CIA convinced 'everyone' that they don't manipulate the news, and that anyone that believes that they do is insane.
You need to do some psychology research and see how a few well placed bits of information can change the outcome of a discussion. We've learned a lot from the 1930s, seemingly the population hasn't.
2 thebabyseagull 2016-12-02
That's exactly what a CTR vault dweller would say.
1 corn_of_action 2016-12-02
Yeah CTR I'm sure has all been laid off but there are PLENTY of newly re-employed PizzaGate shills helping spread disinformation or subtle discouraging messages (like yourself)
0 Cannot_go_back_now 2016-12-02
Says the bot with four separate messages to me, two of them almost exactly the same, yeah I'm the shill.
1 corn_of_action 2016-12-02
I'm not sure what you mean - I didn't send you any message.
1 Cannot_go_back_now 2016-12-02
Four separate messages from you, in my inbox, two of them are almost exactly the same barring one word, seems kind of fishy dude.
1 corn_of_action 2016-12-02
Here's a screenshot of all my reddit conversations including messages sent since I start this account. Not sure what you're implying here, but it seems Reddit is selectively glitching if you're seeing messages sent from me to you, dude.
https://i.sli.mg/bm3kY4.png
https://i.sli.mg/6KsCVu.png
1 SugarsuiT 2016-12-02
some who puts "conspiracy" in quotes, and is on a conspiracy sub, haha, cannot go back now, CTR in full effect, win or lose lol
-2 LordPubes 2016-12-02
If you hold a different view point, you must be a paid to do so. My stance is so righteous and true that no one in the entire world would freely disagree with me.
4 Cannot_go_back_now 2016-12-02
Perfect picture, got those blinders on and only going one way, thanks.
-2 RR4YNN 2016-12-02
Reminds me of the time where the climate deniers in the scientific community were actually revealed to be paid off.
-2 ban_me_pl0x 2016-12-02
Don't worry, friend, many of us here sympathize with you. Unfortunately the "Trump train" really doesn't have any brakes, so the constant shill calling won't go away anytime soon.
15 Cyril_Clunge 2016-12-02
And the people pushing for it are probably from Project Alamo. Accusations of shilling can go any way.
4 pizzahedron 2016-12-02
some of them are just my dad. there's a difference between actually paid shills, and people who eat it up and regurgitate it for free.
-3 GUYoccult 2016-12-02
What is CTR?
5 cutol 2016-12-02
Correct The Record
8 The_ChaplainOC 2016-12-02
Can you imagine if a Trump supporter and or a good friend of Steve Bannon had been discovered hosting bands that make videos with pedophillia centric lyrics and images? Or hosting drag shows in which the mc joked about killing babies and liking little boys?
What if Rience Pre's wife had pedophillia centric posts on her Instagram? Would the media create a cover for them and refuse to report on the sexualized images of children?
They are doing that for David Brock's ex-lover and John Podesta's friend J. Alefantis.
6 JonathonFlowers 2016-12-02
If you don't think the media covers for Republicans you must have forgotten the Bush years, 9/11 and the Iraq war. They play themselves off as "liberal" but watch their actions instead of listening to their words.
3 Little_chicken_hawk 2016-12-02
They cover for globalists whether they be Republicans or Democrats.
2 The_ChaplainOC 2016-12-02
One other thought though. Do you think if the media had videos of Mike Pence feeling up little girls breasts like they do Joe Biden, don't you think they'd run with that?
1 The_ChaplainOC 2016-12-02
Agree, but I think they went along with all that on orders from the elites, because it profited those who are really in control.
7 podesta_the_molesta 2016-12-02
This theory in particular has SO much evidence compared to other ones in the past. We have emails and instagram posts, tangible clues that seem to be popping up everywhere.
Why is reddit so quick to dismiss it? It by far is the most plausible conspiracy in recent times, elite pedo rings have been shown to exist all over the world in many governments. How can the masses of this site uniformly agree without a shadow of a doubt that its "fake news"
I underestimated the power of the shill. Are they really able to control the narrative this strongly?...
4 corn_of_action 2016-12-02
YES
4 DogmaDog 2016-12-02
Podesta himself has come out and said that those kids were really horny, so it isn't his fault.
(I only started joking about this whole thing when I found some terrible shills, and material produced by shills online. It is something I can laugh at now because of just how terrible the propaganda was.)
I'm writing all of this so that you understand that there is a concerted effort to make you believe that the ones ignoring you are 'people' when they are not. They are shills.
What is a shill? In this context, it is anyone that starts to behave more like a machine than a human being. Someone who thinks it is normal to play dominos on pasta.
2 corn_of_action 2016-12-02
"Non-discerning semi-human"
1 KC_Slaughter 2016-12-02
Which is suspect.
1 Deadpool_666 2016-12-02
I feel the same way about goblins.
1 fatboyroy 2016-12-02
How often do cops investigate shit without any evidence at all or 3ben probability?
60 BigBrownBeav 2016-12-02
Excellent summary. The amount of coincidence is staggering. And the media silence surrounding this story is a big tell in my opinion. Bravo for laying it out this concise.
6 justaponyfan 2016-12-02
Exactly. Sticky when?
47 JHVH_UNO 2016-12-02
Exposure. It's what the elite fear the most! Well, exposure and mob justice!
40 scaredshtlessintx 2016-12-02
i feel guilty,angry and ashamed as a parent, a human, and an American that i'm not standing with a pitchfork in front of the White House demanding an investigation......this has been a soul shaking rabbit hole.
22 JHVH_UNO 2016-12-02
Someday a real rain will come and wash all the scum off the streets.
3 ban_me_pl0x 2016-12-02
3 LewdRudeJude 2016-12-02
LEARN TO SWIM
2 ban_me_pl0x 2016-12-02
Cuz I'm praying for rain! I'm praying for tidal waves!
2 the_based_man 2016-12-02
I wanna see the ground give way. I wanna watch it all go down.
7 911bodysnatchers322 2016-12-02
You'd get killed or thrown in jail. No the best thing to do actually is reach out to others who disagree with you, but in a respectful, patient but persistent way. And also learn hacking so well you can steal all their shit and then burn it. Just like mr robot
You have to burn it so you tell them it's about them, not about you. Take all their toys, break them, and throw into the ocean
2 corn_of_action 2016-12-02
Can you tell me more about what this means please?
1 911bodysnatchers322 2016-12-02
I mean you turn their digital numbers that are made up in an account somewhere into 0s in a way that can't be reversed
2 corn_of_action 2016-12-02
thank you
5 huktheavenged 2016-12-02
i'm thinking they'll set off their "bio-bomb" if we push into a corner.
1 Elmo_Tully 2016-12-02
That's nothing... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j88BcgzzcTc
2 huktheavenged 2016-12-02
they've got to have a base on the far side of the moon-they're not spraying themselves!
3 nottheoretical 2016-12-02
I have a pitchfork. When are we goin? :uD Seriously, i'd give a pitchfork to everyone if that would only solve it.
2 corn_of_action 2016-12-02
Today, "Pitchforks" means guns. As soon as we do a peaceful protest with loaded weapons, this ends.
2 nottheoretical 2016-12-02
Marches with legally carried guns have been done before...i think it's not a bad idea. Maybe we need a Million civilian march on DC.
1 corn_of_action 2016-12-02
Why does it matter if they're "legal" when the government that's making the laws is the problem? The whole point is that if everyone has guns, self policing is 100% everyone's responsibility, 100% of the time.
1 nottheoretical 2016-12-02
I agree the government is the problem but they want nothing more than a reason to point to us and call us criminals. It would be unreasonably rash to go marching around with illegal weapons and make ourselves look like a threat in some way. We need to remain peaceful and law abiding as possible.
1 corn_of_action 2016-12-02
You make a good point there.
12 911bodysnatchers322 2016-12-02
Mobs of the past didn't have the internet with mountains of evidence. They had pitchforks and campfire stories. We've traded those things for turduckens of shadowy rich people pushing conspirabait, fakenews, and hacked emails, where nothing is real except the reality of the demons of the upperclass and unpunished justice. Even if they turned out to be unreal, their attempt to screw up our psychology on a mass scale woudl still be real, therefore it's immaterial. I miss the pitchforks and torches. Things were much simpler then
3 JHVH_UNO 2016-12-02
enough people will eventually awaken
look what just happened
1 [deleted] 2016-12-02
You are on fire Bodysnatcher , CHEERS!! Get 'em!!!
11 [deleted] 2016-12-02
[deleted]
3 The_ChaplainOC 2016-12-02
Look at all the Pedro's and cover ups in the Catholic Church and the Boy Scouts.
6 cajuntechie 2016-12-02
I don't think they do. They know that the majority of Americans are too lazy, fearful, or controlled to take to the streets and demand justice. Sure, you'll have 'movements' like Occupy, but not the kind of numbers that are required to tackle things like this.
I sometimes wonder if the elite fear exposure at all anymore. We've shown ourselves to be pretty easy to distract and manage.
4 JHVH_UNO 2016-12-02
it doesn't take a majority...1/3 of a percent of the population could collapse the system overnight.
3 cajuntechie 2016-12-02
And there is absolutely no indication that even that small amount can be effectively mobilized and kept active/focused for any length of time.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see a mass uprising of the people. I just don't have _that much faith in them.
Also, can you cite your source for your 1/3 of a percent being able to collapse the system? I want to use that.
6 JHVH_UNO 2016-12-02
First off, there are more than a million retired military alone... When I was at WP that was the number thrown around as the percentage needed to overthrow the US Government. It was referenced many times in war college materials. I'm sure it exists on the web. If you can't find it, just apply logic to military numbers and cite recent color revolutions. Iraq, Afghanistan, and Libya being examples of domestic insurgencies dominating larger forces...add the fact that the US has a voluntary military unwilling to fire on domestic insurgence...Every war game I can recall ends with domestic gorillas in full military control within 3 days...unless parameters were adjusted to ensure force dominance...aka, civilian oversight porn. Also, people shouldn't assume the military will stand with TPTB...Enemies, foreign and domestic!
3 cajuntechie 2016-12-02
Ok..great...soooooo...where are these folks who are ready for this mass uprising and taking back the country? Why are they not already involved?
Edit: Don't misunderstand, really want the American people to step up and take our country back. But this fantasy of a mass uprising is showing itself to be pretty delusional in light of the reality of peoples involvement.
5 JHVH_UNO 2016-12-02
Where are these folks? Go outside. Talk to your neighbors. Have children and integrate with society. The overwhelming majority of people care very little for global politics and just want an uninhibited life. There is no reason for a mass revolt. We do still have a functioning legislator, people are just too stupid to use it correctly. This pizzagate shit isn't even a month old...in 6 months, a year+ and people will start to come forward. Deals will be made. Heads will roll. This has been a long time coming. If nothing is done...you never know, it's easy to get people's doxx nowadays.
0 Contrary_mma_hipster 2016-12-02
Why do you think Obama moved next to Mr. Podesta? To give him Secret Service protection.
2 JHVH_UNO 2016-12-02
That's probably very accurate...the gay mafia protects it's own.
47 911bodysnatchers322 2016-12-02
You make numerous very good points OP. A lot of the narratives you underscore are known control grid propaganda--the adhom of 'conspiracy theorist' being primary in this knowledge domain; secondly 'alt right' which really doesn't exist in the way the media wants to fearscape us into believing; and thirdly the "conspiracies don't happen because someone would blow the whistle"--that's another thing we've properly and formally debunked many times over (gulf of tonkin, uss liberty, safari club) I want to add to the conversation and in doing so I'm going to have to respectfully disagree at some points. I hope that's ok with you.
There is a third option no one talks about. It's the libertarian non-partisan person who sees Hillary Clinton as a criminal who should be in jail along with several others such as James Comey, Loretta Lynch, Huma Abedin, and possibly even Obama. This demographic is real, it's large, and it's underrrepresented. In fact it's ignored.
Just because someone is rational and uses history and evidence to make a case about the constellated Clintonian cabal's criminality, doesn't 'by default' make them a Trump supporter, despite 'shit news says'. I didn't vote for anyone this year because (several reasons in fact) I didn't have a third party option on my ballot. I didn't vote for Trump. I support Trump less and less as I see who he fills his cabinet with (Jesuits--the usual suspects). But just because I'm helping with Pizzagate and combing through podesta emails doesn't mean I support Trump, but clearly the news is trying to force the failed left-right, binary, partisanship narrative and we shouldn't play into it anymore. It's ternary or better, or at least we want it to be.
That's not true, iirc it's less than 5% by the arrest numbers. This link says 6%, if it's sourced I am inclined to believe it, thedailybeast agrees[1]. Wikipedia homes in on this number as well with 5, 6 up to 8%, with even more sources[2]. Turns out, it actually IS a male thing. I've read this many times from many sources.
But giving you the benefit of the doubt (since it's easy to doubt the news now), I searched your 40% and I found this link, whose statement is not only wholly non-believable (1 in 6 men molested), it's also not sourced. This frustrated me. I wanted to know where this was coming from.
Googling around led me finally to this page, wherein it makes the following statement:
Ah. So here is a list of Finkelhor D papers. Though the above may be accurate, keep in mind it doesn't disagree with the 6% (5-8%) of pedos are female, because this is a sample population from "day cares", which would be a prime scenarios for female psychopaths to molest children, versus the myriad other contexts in which they are not molested. Here are those papers directly
I win the "success in googling for academic papers" award today, btw. That shit is sometimes annoyingly hard. And always remember its so because the CIA killed Aaron Swartz
You're spot on with your suspicions around pizzagate facts specifically. You are right to be suspicious. If you look at it from a math perspective, the statistical likelihood of these things being 'coincidencia in a vacuum' is so low as to be impossible. I did a thing about the number 33,000 which I found 32 times in the podesta emails. There was no other 'statistic' or "numbers" represented nearly with that frequency. The likelihood of that being a coincidence or even those being real numbers is impossible--it's clearly spy-to-spy "signalling behavior" more than it is an actual real number from police reports...even if it were, its clear it would be a fudged number they plucked from the ether that had no actual scientific (as in based on real gathered reports) basis.
Similarly, then, when you have a person who is connected to 5 convicted pedophiles, has pedo artwork, mocks the public's sensibilities with antisocial and inappropriate pedo art and phrases like 'hotard' and being a childless adult posting pictures of other people's children (most know that's wildly inappropriate for social media), attending other events implicated in pedophilia and 'unusal art exhibits that are of a sexualized nature where children were also present'....it's statistically impossible that this person is not a pedophile.
11 LucifersHammerr 2016-12-02
According to a major 2004 study commissioned by the U.S. Department of Education - In studies that ask students about offenders, sex differences are less than in adult reports. The 2000 AAUW data indicate that 57.2 percent of all students report a male offender and 42.4 percent a female offender with the Cameron et al. study reporting nearly identical proportions as the 2000 AAUW data (57 percent male offenders vs. 43 percent female offenders).. (Source .PDF Download)
Approximately 95% of all youth reporting staff sexual misconduct said they had been victimized by female staff. In 2008, 42% of staff in state juvenile facilities were female. (Bureau of Justice Report)
More women (58%) than men (42%) are perpetrators of all forms of child maltreatment. (Child Maltreatment: Facts at a Glance CDC)
One in six adult men reported being sexually molested as children, and -- in a surprise finding -- nearly 40 percent of the perpetrators were female, a new study found. (Source Link)
About 27 percent of women and 34 percent of men among the Dunedin study members reported they had been physically abused by their partner. About 37 percent of women and 22 percent of men said they had perpetrated the violence. (Source Link)
UBC Study Challenges Stereotypes of Sexually Exploited Youth: Boys as Likely as Girls to be Exploited (Link)(Report)
In a study of 17,337 survivors of childhood sexual abuse, 23% had a female-only perpetrator and 22% had both male and female perpetrators. ( Dube, Shanta R et al. “Long-Term Consequences of Childhood Sexual Abuse by Gender of Victim.” American Journal of Preventive Medicine. (2005):28(5), p 430 – 438.)
http://www.menstuff.org/issues/byissue/pedophiles-female.html
Also relevant:
http://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/11/the-understudied-female-sexual-predator/503492/
8 Top-Cheese 2016-12-02
Why would you only use arrest numbers? Those would be biased towards men and wouldn't nearly be a complete picture of the problem.
5 DankPepe81 2016-12-02
I agree. I'm sure some of the things being picked up on are just confirmation bias. But the huge amounts of things poping up start to defy probability unless most of them can be soundly debunked, which so far I've not seen.
4 911bodysnatchers322 2016-12-02
I also found this, though it's not related directly it's often found along with this 40%, 1 in 6 men molested nonsense.
Keep in mind 60% here only means that there could be one female that's molesting a lot of boys. Right?
1 corn_of_action 2016-12-02
Thanks for this, it really helped.
1 [deleted] 2016-12-02
You are spot on bodysnatcher, my sentiments exactly. The shilling is ridiculously obvious , and , well , fucking creepy. Trying to direct and change things. Challenging stupid points with no facts , real facts anyway. Thank you for the academia paper searches.. I like it . I like this post!!! Those spooks and social engineers can just fuck off. There meddling is fruitless... energy spent on nothing. . and they are sooo , fucking obvious. I don't like to be mean , or rude , but i can't help but call a shill a damn shill when I see one. I agree with you... thank you for the post. We should descend on shills and always ... call them out. Ridicule their preposterously sized balls , be indignant , then ignore them. But always , call a shill a shill when you see them..Some one legit might not know the nuances of those shillers . those spooks. They can just fuck off , in my book. They don't fit in , never will ,they doublespeak , it is OBVIOUS , and they provoke anger at how stupid they must think we are... it is opposite day when they show up... dumb , obvious , neon signs on them and shit.... wtf... Peace...
28 returnofN 2016-12-02
If you are unsure of pizzagate authenticity ask yourself how many ridiculous crackpot conspiracy theories you seem so aggressively denied and decried by the mainstream media.
You don't see CNN talking about flat earthers
16 Aaronmcom 2016-12-02
Why would cnn talk about flat earthers? O.o "this just in, fucking retards exist. Back to you Chet"
Pizzagate has consequences. Ruining somebody's life
8 Mental_Cramp 2016-12-02
If pizzagaters are wrong, then yes maybe a handful of extremely rich and powerful people experience difficulty in their lives.
On the other hand, if you're wrong... the number of lives ruined is far greater.
There's a growing mountain of evidence in front of you.
Which would you rather? No investigation and chance (hundreds? thousands?) more lives ruined, or go ahead with an investigation that only equates to a little lost business and the clearing of these people's names at the end?
0 JunkerMethod 2016-12-02
This argument might have a little more weight if you could identify a single person harmed by James Alefantis.
3 Mental_Cramp 2016-12-02
When you look at ops thread read it twice.
First read it as if all these people are ordinary. Then read it as if all these people were guilty. Then form your opinion.
Maybe your right, maybe your wrong. I don't know personally but I can't dismiss how disturbing all of this is. Especially the artwork collections. What's with the fixations? Maybe the pizza guy is an unwitting bystander or a psyop plant to throw us off track. Maybe it's just the higher ups that have been implicated that they should be focused on and the name pizza gate was part of the cover up. I don't know but it definitely makes me question whether these guys have stumbled on something.
E: and what's up with the new thread saying he lied about the basement on another interview. Did he just put the basement in this year?
E2: I think if I were him the first thing I would have done is invite media crews for a FULL tour of the restaurant and unlocked all the encrypted files and become as transparent as possible to dismiss all of this instead of locking down and encrypting everything. I mean, if there's nothing there then visibility would end their investigation quickest.
5 JunkerMethod 2016-12-02
I see this response a lot. "Well, it might be nothing, but you can't deny how weird it all is."
Here's the thing: That doesn't matter. You could show me as many 'weird' e-mails and 'disturbing' images as you want. Until an actual victim is identified, or even a real missing child that can in any way be connected with Comet Ping Pong, there's nothing here to discuss.
We don't arrest people for weird e-mails, questionable taste in art, or, hell, even being a pedophile. Once there's evidence of an actual crime, I'll give this idea more credence. Until then, it's just speculation.
7 sh3rog 2016-12-02
Alefantis turned off his instagram IMMEDIATELY but waits a month to put out any kind of statement. He could have just put out a short one when he made his instagram private and it all would have stopped I guarantee it. But he streissaned this shit and now its blowing up
5 Mental_Cramp 2016-12-02
I still think the guy is reacting in the wrong way if he wants them to stop. He should have brought in media crews to tour his basement and unlocked the encrypted files on his Web page immediately instead of further encryption and lock down if there's nothing there.
He's just feeding the fire and it's too late to correct it the same way now. The assumption will be that everything has been scrubbed.
-3 Aaronmcom 2016-12-02
It's the pizza shops owner whos life is being ruined. Where the hell is the evidence linking these emails to comet?
Weird art isn't evidence. Weird pizza emails aren't evidence. Im alllll for investigation. Go ahead, investigate the SHHIET. out of it. Go ahead and prove yourselves wrong and then be all "oh the investigators were payed off etc etc."
The problem is, you're already witch hunting comets owner. That's why pizzagate was shut down on reddit. Same shit happend with amy's baking company threads. But nobody gave a shit because nobody thought it was a conspiracy.
5 Mental_Cramp 2016-12-02
See above
7 sh3rog 2016-12-02
Ok, so the big thing is why aren't they showing these photos if they are in no way suspicious?
Hmmmmmmmmmmm?
Maybe because they are legitimately fucking suspicious
-3 Aaronmcom 2016-12-02
the Instagram photos? Because they aren't suspicious? Why would they show non-suspicious photos?
it's like you guys have never seen weird shit before. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDr742MGZJ8
and where the hell does the emails link to the pizza place? no one has shown me that yet. Where the hell did comet come from? Just randomly?
6 sh3rog 2016-12-02
If they aren't suspicious, then showing them would help debunk this theory
This is a perfect opportunity for Mr. Alefantis to stop all this. Explain what #hotard is
Or #murder #killroom
Jesus its not hard, its like he doesn't wan't to address the pictures in any specific manner.
If they really wanted to debunk it they would choose 2 or 3 of the most suspicious ones and include them along with some kind of explanation from mr alefantis, showing that this is all a big misunderstanding. Instead they are making ad hominems against the people raising the issues and saying their evidence doesn't even merit a response.
-2 Aaronmcom 2016-12-02
The hashtags are easily explained away as dark humor.
Beyond a reasonable doubt. That's the filter that missing from conspiracy theorists. You draw strings and fill in huge gaps. Always prepared for the worst outcome.
The photos wouldn't debunk anything. The photos don't communicate one thing or the other.
He talked about the one with the girl taped to the table as playing with the kids, while people yelled at him that it was sexual.
7 sh3rog 2016-12-02
THE PHOTOS STARTED ALL OF THIS
And I'm not buying the dark humor thing unless you mean that yeah pedophiles think its funny to call a baby a ho or a retard in which case yes it is very very dark humor
6 The_ChaplainOC 2016-12-02
I looked at the entire account before he set it private and it was rank. I mean, who sexualizes kids like that????
5 The_ChaplainOC 2016-12-02
Jimmy is in the Podesta emails sucking up to John.
4 The_ChaplainOC 2016-12-02
The media would be quick to show non-suspicious photos. But they can't. Because sexualized pics of toddlers will always be suspicious.
1 returnofN 2016-12-02
Wow you are dense. The point is the MSM doesnt go about discrediting wild rumors.
Oh and given my friends in DC are reporting lines around the block at comet ping pong, Im not sure whose life is being ruined except for that screaming kid in the video from 2007.
0 Aaronmcom 2016-12-02
What is msm?
From what ive seen the people outside of comet have been protestors. But that's protestors youtube videos so i cant say for certain.
Either way, you're calling a guy a pedophile when he never even called a baby a hotard.
1 returnofN 2016-12-02
MSM=Mainstream media
Im calling a guy a pedophile who has a mural of a naked man cumming while playing ping pong with an alien and suspect IG account that he made private
1 returnofN 2016-12-02
present one piece of evidence refuting ANYTHING about this placethat isnt "he says it isnt true"
BTW you know he lied about there being a basement in his restaurant right?
1 Aaronmcom 2016-12-02
I don't have to prove someone isn't a pedophile. You have to prove someone is. And you have nothing.
n/a returnofN 2016-12-02
You dont understand the legal system. In order to get an indictment there need only be "reasonable suspicion" and there is plenty for that.
Unless of course you have a pizza related map on a handkerchief
1 redsandis 2016-12-02
Flat Earth theories arent publicly accusing people and their businesses of being satanic pedofiles.
2 returnofN 2016-12-02
Present ONE piece of evidence that isnt "the owner swears he isnt" that this is untrue.
inb4 you tell me to present mine. My evidence is all over the internet and is easily found. NO ONE however has presented anything resembling a refutation of this.
17 obviouslynotag0lfer 2016-12-02
Yeah, I'm a pretty left leaning fellow. but there is too much here to ignore. anyone who's been uneducated on the subject that I talked to about and showed evidence to has said "wow. yeah, that's a lot of connected weird stuff"
15 twsmith 2016-12-02
First of all, notice the substitution here. The "pedo symbols" were not for Comet Ping Pong, nor were they for businesses "associated with Comet". There were for businesses near Comet. Instead of drawing the obvious conclusion—the logos have nothing to do with Coment—a story was spun that this implied some kind of sinister nexus. Bullshit. These logos have nothing to do with Comet. This is just free-association innuendo.
Only one of the logos is actually that similar to a "pedo symbol". The Besta Pizza logo has a triangular spiral, which is unusual, and that's similar to the "BLogo". On the other hand, it's yellow, not blue, has pizza toppings, and melting cheese. So it could just be a coincidence.
The other logo is a heart logo with hands and a partial outline. Hearts are extremely common symbols and there's nothing unusual about it. It has a slight similarity to the "GLogo", but nothing out of the ordinary.
People have been primed to see similarities whether they exist or not. How many times did people say that the name "James Alefantis" sounds like "J'aimes les enfants"? Well, it really doesn't. And it happens to be his real name. Internet sleuths traced his ancestry back several generations. (I'm not going to link because of reddit rules.)
People on r/conspiracy are often skeptical of coincidences, but they are actually quite common, especially when you have an army of "weaponized autists" (not my term) let loose with internet search engines to look for them. The "owner" of Besta Pizza is a DOJ lawyer who prosecutes human trafficking! No, the lawyer who registered the corporate papers is another lawyer with the same name. Is that an unlikely coincidence? No, it's just an artifact of plugging every single name into Google.
7 LucifersHammerr 2016-12-02
Yes fair enough. Across street and next door to Buck's I think (also run by Alefantis). Edited comment.
The girl lover logo is small heart within big heart (adult/girl). Boy lover is small triangle in big triangle (adult/boy). That logo has small heart in big heart plus small hand on big hand. So yes it fits. But yes it could and probably is just a coincidence.
Not sure why you commented on that or two other claims I didn't even make since it wasn't one of the four points I raised at end.
5 twsmith 2016-12-02
Well, I did comment on the "Podesta" sketches. The sketches are of one person, not two, and the witnesses described him as a much younger man than either of the Podestas. Since I was at work, I didn't have time to respond to everything.
I'm not sure that Podesta deleted the emails around when McCann disappeared. Rather, it seems that he barely used Gmail before September, 2007.
Here are the counts of messages in Gmail up through June of 2008. Before September, 2007, there are 18 outgoing messages and only one real reply. On September 18, he and his assistant begin using it in earnest. In November, messages start flooding in. It could be that this is what's left after deletions, but it doesn't look like it.
About the Instagram: I don't know enough about the context of all of these pictures, and I know almost nothing about these people's lives, so I can't say what all the parents' reactions will be, but Alefantis has apparently known these children and their parents for years. What the comments mean to them is different from what each of us will perceive. I do know a little about some of the pictures and I can speculate a little.
Because of reddit rules, I can't link to the pictures, but you can look through them if you know where to find them.
The "baby for sale" was literally a doll for sale in a shop. The comments were "way overpriced" and "creepy", etc.
The "Why does Daddy like BUTT?" comment looks mysterious on one picture, but when you see the other picture in the set, suddenly it all makes sense. The man is wearing a shirt with a logo for BUTT magazine and the woman is pointing at it.
The hashtag #killroom on one photo seems completely out of the blue ... until you see the picure that it's apparently referring to. "There's a creepy space in the back of my shop that's been designated thusly: picture with "KILL ROOM" and the outline of a coffin written on an unfinished wall. This is from the metal-working artist who was working on a coffin coffee table. These are the kind of allusions that people find hilarious when talking with friends or here on reddit, where if you drop in a reference to "Jolly Rancher" at the appropriate (inappropriate) place, you'll get lots of comment karma.
I don't see anything sexual about "Yum…baby". There's a well known expression, "you're so cute, I could eat you up!" There's nothing sexual about that one, either.
I had assumed that the two commenters were calling each other "#hotard". It never occurred to me that they were calling the baby "hotard". That wouldn't make sense.
And, by the way, I don't think that they were actually planning to have a sleepover at Comet Ping Pong. I think they're eating pizza before the sleepover. The caption says "Double sleep over kick off at Comet Ping Pong." I had wondered why this was on the list of supposedly creepy pictures. It never occurred to me that they were going to sleep there.
The one that I think is probably used in a sexual, but (hopefully) joking way is #chickenlover. But, again, I don't know these people, so I can't be sure.
2 cutol 2016-12-02
I think it was an allusion to the magazine it appeared in, which had 'edibles' in the title.
4 talented 2016-12-02
No, the heart is used everywhere.
3 LucifersHammerr 2016-12-02
That's a good find and I stand corrected. I'm not here to prove pizzagate; I'd much rather be proven wrong.
3 The_ChaplainOC 2016-12-02
Here's the deal about the pedo heart on the Terasol webpage. It was completely out of place. It had nothing at all to do with food or cafes. That's why it stuck out. Because it matched nothing else about the cafe or the design of the webpage. It was just a pedo heart.
13 maulynvia 2016-12-02
Great, balanced summary, thanks
11 grovulent 2016-12-02
Okay - so I won't pretend that I've spent a lot of time on this. This is the first post I've taken the time to read - so the following criticism is based on the content of THIS post only.
The argument seems to be that their ART and INNUENDO is enough to warrant suspicion of one of the worst forms of crime imaginable.
Let's just take a moment here. What is your understanding of justice? Does your understanding of justice really allow for the accusation of a crime on the basis of artistic representation and innuendo?
Does this not undermine the very foundations of free speech? What you are doing is applying EXTREMELY HIGH COSTS to their artistic and private expression. Both of these are meant to be sacrosanct in a free society. We need art to able to explore the whackiest things - and we need to be able to explore whatever we want in private; to ensure that new ideas have a space to flourish and establish themselves. If we are all to be judged on the basis of our private speech - with all innuendo and jokes as fair game. No one would ever feel free to speak against the status quo. Political opposition would never have the chance to arise.
You might rebut that to make such an accusation is an exercise in free speech. It certainly is. But I'm not advocating any sort of policy to stop you. I'm asking you to really think hard whether YOUR use of this right is just. And while this criticism of mine does increase the costs of your expression somewhat - it is nothing compared to the costs you are imposing on these people.
Another retort might be that if there is even the smallest possibility of these claims being true - the enormous harm done to innocents justifies any injustice wrought as a consequence of this investigation. Well - this is why we have institutions which have over hundreds of years developed processes to allow them to pursue such investigations while minimising the risk of injustice through accusation. If you don't trust these institutions then your sole activity and singular intent must devote itself toward THE REFORM OF THOSE INSTITUTIONS - you should not take it upon yourself to enforce justice in individual cases. You should be working toward fixing those institutions.
Please people - get off this forum and put your energies toward fixing the real source of the problems of which this conspiracy - whether it be false or true - is but a symptom.
6 LucifersHammerr 2016-12-02
Those are all fair points. The biggest problem here is that people no longer trust LEOs to hold elites accountable. There have simply been too many examples (both in the US and elsewhere) of LEO's covering up elite pedo rings or engaging in other criminal activities. The higher up we go the worse it gets (FBI, CIA, Pentagon).
Also, I'm not sure what Tony Podesta expected people to think when he filled his house with artwork about abusing children. Same with Amanda Kleinman making music videos about pedophilia and the sexual torture of children. Surely she wanted such a response unless she was (as people here suspect) just flaunting her pedophilia to her friends?
As for Alefantis, again, if you're going to create a "kid friendly" restaurant and hang out with Tony Podesta perhaps it's not a good idea to make numerous pedophilic remarks on Instagram while posting pictures of children, hold sleepovers at your restaurant with kids, and feature pedophilic artwork for "all ages" rock shows?
0 grovulent 2016-12-02
I already addressed this concern directly in my original comment. To quote:
6 LucifersHammerr 2016-12-02
That sounds like rather a large feat. How would you suggest people go about reforming the FBI?
Any comments on the second part?
2 grovulent 2016-12-02
Well - the way you would go about advocating for any improvement in society. Here's a start - I just created a sub-reddit: /r/InstitutionalReform
You could post the first post to get the discussion started.
edit: soz - forgot to reply to your second question:
Not really - I don't have anything to add in response to that beyond what I already wrote. You are there just restating the accusations and the grounds for those accusations. Those being the art that they possess and the innuendo surrounding their speech. I'm saying - it is not just to accuse people on those grounds. It is NEVER just. If you want to progress the argument further you need to give me a positive reason to question why my understanding of justice is flawed.
6 LucifersHammerr 2016-12-02
Okay. Well, I don't know what to say. You're saying it's horrible to accuse these people of pedophilia while they seem to be deliberately courting such accusations, possibly for the thrill of hiding in plain sight or possibly to cause controversy. I mean, just watch the Amanda Kleinman music video or look at the spread in Tony Pedosta's house.
What's really bizarre about both Kleinman's and Abromovich's responses (if B is true -- that they're just trying to cause controversy) is that they make no attempt to explain their work; instead they just insist that there is no reason at all for people to be upset and that the whole thing is "fake news" by Trump supporters. Same with James: no attempt to explain why he likes making sexual comments about kids and toddlers. You'll have to admit that the whole thing's pretty fucking weird.
1 grovulent 2016-12-02
Hold up. I'm asking you a very specific question. WHAT IS YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF JUSTICE? In response to this question you keep replying with your and others perceptions of their weirdness - while trying to convince me of this weirdness.
This reply does nothing to further my understanding of your conception of justice. I want to know why you think it IS just to accuse people of such a crime on the basis of their artistic expression and the innuendo you derive from their speech.
Now - I gave you a very specific account of why I think your behaviour IS unjust. I'll repeat it. The reason is that if we allow such accusations - on the basis of their artistic expression and innuendo derived from their speech; then we undermine the very foundations of our society. We need the costs on artistic expression and individual speech to be low - otherwise there will be no spheres in which opposition to the status quo can take root and grow. Political reform will become impossible.
Now if you disagree with this claim - then you need to state why - and you need to assert an alternative conception of justice to use.
Re-stating how weird you think their behaviour is - IS NOT AN ANSWER to what I'm asking for. I'm willing (for sake of argument only) agree that they are a bunch of fucking weirdoes. I still don't believe that they deserve to be accused of a horrific crime on that basis - and I don't believe this because of my understanding of what justice is.
If you aren't able to provide an alternative conception of justice to use... then you should accept mine - or at least accept that this discussion can't progress any further until you do.
6 LucifersHammerr 2016-12-02
Are you saying that people should not be allowed free speech? Because that sounds like what you're saying. So if I make a music video featuring images of kids intercut with images of people bleeding out the rectum and being penetrated with foreign objects etc. People should not be allowed to say, "what the fuck are you doing?" What is the relevance of this sadistic pedophilic imagery? What are you trying to say here? Because that's basically what people are doing. Moreover, if you made such a video, wouldn't you want people to talk about it? Wouldn't you want to explain your motivation?
4 grovulent 2016-12-02
Definitely not - and I did address this in my very first post in this thread. But this is a very important question - it's understandable that you would ask it - and so I'm happy to take the time to expand my answer. Sorry - this post is long. I believe it's worth your time. This issue is so important - and I've personally put a lot of work into understanding it.
So - I'll make a number of core claims about free speech as I progress. The first is the following.
1) We should keep the costs on speech as low as possible in all cases.
This is really just a re-statement of the principle of free speech itself. The idea is that we should punish people as little as possible for expressing themselves. I think you and I would both agree 100% with this principle. The question will be - who is violating the spirit of 1) more - you or me?
The next claim is:
2) The receipt of general criticism (e.g. challenging its truth, it's appropriateness... etc) for an act of public expression is an acceptable cost to bear - and is not a violation of the spirit of 1).
I think it likely that we both strongly agree with this claim. Criticism can sting one's pride - but it can't fundamentally hurt you. Furthermore - to assert that criticism does violate 1) would lead us to self-contradiction since it would mean that a very large swathe of speech and discourse would be ruled out. This itself would be a violation of the spirit of 1) since 1) wants to allow for as much speech as possible.
Private speech is another matter. It's a much more subtle issue about how much one should have to receive criticism for private speech. But since the people pizza-gate is talking about have done a lot of this stuff publicly - we can just stick to thinking about public speech for now.
Next we come to a question. Is what you and pizza-gate doing mere criticism as mentioned in 2)? You seem to present it as such when you wrote:
If this was all you were doing - I would have no problem with it. But my understanding was - and correct me if I'm wrong - that the core aim of pizza-gate was to investigate an accusation of actual child sexual abuse. An ACTUAL accusation. I submit that this is not mere criticism... why?
To answer this I'll need the third core claim about free speech:
3) The receipt of an accusation of criminal behaviour for an act of public expression (which itself isn't a direct confession to anything) is a very high cost to bear and therefore a violation of the spirit of 1).
An accusation of criminality is a high cost to bear because people's lives can be destroyed as a result. Unlike mere criticism - it really can hurt you. People can lose their jobs - friends and family can feel pressured to ostracise them... etc. That's real damage. As such - making an accusation like child sexual abuse on the basis of public expression alone - is a clear violation of 1). You are imposing a very high cost on a group of people with nothing but acts of expression as the justification. To be justified in making accusations of criminality - you need REAL evidence - not just innuendo.
For this reason I argue that you are violating the core principle of free speech as stated in 1). You are imposing unacceptably high costs of expression on others - without sufficient justification. I don't think you intend this violation of 1) - I think your intentions are good. I just don't think you've thought it all through as much as you should. And that's why I'm here - to help you do this. I don't mean to talk down to you. I'm genuinely here to try and help you think more clearly about these issues.
Now let's turn to my own behaviour. By criticizing you - am I imposing an unacceptable cost upon you such that it would be a violation of 1)? I say no. Why? Because I'm only engaging in mere criticism. I don't think what you are doing is a crime. I do not think you deserve to be punished by any institution. There is a fourth claim we could include here:
4) Only institutional violations of 1) should receive institutional punishment.
That is to say - that if Governments, corporations, etc... impose very high costs on acts of speech - then our other institutions and the citizenry are free to impose very high costs on them in return. We allow this because of the disproportionate amount of power that they wield - and that power must be kept in check.
The people like yourself who are involved in pizza-gate are not part of a powerful institution (I hope). Thus I don't believe you deserve to be punished for it. All I can do in response is engage in sincere criticism in the hope I can convince you to change. But if you choose not to - there is nothing further I can do about it. That is simultaneously the most sacred and the most terrifying aspect of our society. It is a genuinely terrifying in that we as individuals have the power to transgress the spirit of 1) - and destroy our society as result (if enough of us do it). That's why it's so important that those of us who understand these issues well take the time out to try to explain them in good faith - and the belief that you are more than capable of understanding. I have faith that you will.
So no - I do not feel I am violating the spirit of 1). I'm not accusing you of any crime. I think you are behaving unwisely - but not criminally. I don't think anyone should fire you - or end their friendships with you. I am merely criticising you.
Anyway - I really hope you take some time to really think through all of this. If you want to go deeper - I can recommend some resources to help you develop a stronger understanding.
7 LucifersHammerr 2016-12-02
You make some interesting arguments. I guess I'll just ask what you think the best course of action is beyond calling the FBI, which is obviously a non-starter since the assumption (a valid one in my view) is that the role of the FBI is to protect elite criminals, not arrest them. You apparently think there isn't enough evidence here to justify researching these people, but a lot of people apparently do. They believe horrible crimes are being perpetrated as we speak. If you did think there was sufficient evidence would that change your opinion?
1 grovulent 2016-12-02
Cool - so first up... know that I share your concerns about the current state of institutions meant to deal with these things - (although I personally haven't done the research and work required to advocate publicly about it - so I'm not willing to make a formal accusation against them either).
Second - I don't think I said you can't investigate your claims (if I did - I didn't mean it as such). What I said is that you shouldn't make a public accusation without evidence.
Research and investigations though do not have to be public. So you can, or small groups of you can, PRIVATELY investigate your suspicions. If it's private - and you do it VERY CAREFULLY - then this gives you an opportunity to search for genuine evidence without hurting the people you are investigating in the meantime.
If you choose to do this - just make sure that you know what is required for you to do this legally in your country. Don't even think about breaking the law to achieve your aims - launching a genuine private investigation is such a huge undertaking you are currently a long way from ever facing a situation where a legal restriction is blocking your investigation anyway. So - know the rules and play by them.
Really - I would not advocate any of you to actually do this unless you have - or are willing to get training as a private investigator or an investigative reporter. Without that training the risk of fucking it up is just too high - you could get yourself hurt, you could be careless and expose the people you are investigating without enough evidence. And if you get made - you could send all the perps underground (burning photos and wiping drives) as they almost certainly have done in this case already if there was any truth to it.
What you could do instead - again, privately - is hire a professional. You could crowdsource funds by say - using a private subreddit and bitcoin donations...
I'm not entirely sure overall it's going to be a good thing for society if people are launching private investigations into the fellow citizens on the basis of internet conspiracies. But you guys are obviously determined - so I'm trying to give you something.
Consider this suggestion as middle ground.
3 LucifersHammerr 2016-12-02
Very good suggestions. One PI offered to investigate and there was talk of crowd funding but that seems to have fallen by the wayside.
3 DogmaDog 2016-12-02
The only problem with your argument is that someone could investigate the individuals and instances which are suspected of being criminal, and never ever make a criminal accusation against them.
In which case you are arguing that no group curiosity or investigation ought to occur, since the result is separate instances of investigators violating the spirit of free speech. Which means you are censoring the investigation as a whole.
Here is a claim I will make: I am responsible enough to hold the lives or deaths of every human being on earth in my hands.
Do you believe me?
That is essentially what every presidential candidate claims when they run for president. Maybe they don't make that claim to you, but for most Americans, that is what the president is capable of (based on their understanding.)
What you are proposing is even more that censoring free speech (in the form of online discussions) what you are proposing is censoring curiosity...
Which means that if I tell you I am God, as well as the son, you shouldn't be the slightest bit curious about me, or think that I'm slightly off.
2 grovulent 2016-12-02
My apologies but I'm having a little trouble in understanding your precise meaning.
I don't quite see how it follows that no group investigation ought to occur if no accusations are made. Group activity can be considered private - so long as the group is small enough and no one outside learns of its activities.
Perhaps you mean to claim that it follows from my position that no PUBLIC investigation can occur if no public accusation is made. Then yes - this is a logical outcome of my view. I'm not sure why you feel this outcome is a poor one.
For what reason did a private investigation fail to make a public accusation? Is it because after their investigation they failed to uncover any genuine evidence? Then - the fact that they don't make a public accusation is as it should be. For if they did - they would be imposing HIGH COSTS on the mere expression of those under suspicion and thus violating their right to freedom of speech.
But if they did find strong evidence as a result of their private investigation then my view is that you are allowed to make a public accusation (and you should). While you do indeed still harm those you are accusing, you are now reasonably imposing that harm on the basis of the DEEDS of those under suspicion - as opposed to their MERE speech.
Also - I'm not saying you have to have such evidence that you have to entirely prove the matter beyond reasonable doubt. That can be for the public investigation and trial to obtain. But you do have to have MORE than mere speech and innuendo to get the public investigation started.
No - I'm definitely not. Let's just get clear on what censorship is first - to make sure we agree on a definition.
Censorship is an act that makes use of some form of force in order to restrict public expression.
The possible types of force involved can vary. It could involve physical removal of public expression. Or it could involve some kind of social harm that harms the status of the person expressing themselves.
I'm not doing either of these things. I'm merely criticizing those that choose to make public accusations without sufficient evidence to do so. As I wrote above - mere criticism does not cause harm and is not an imposition on free speech. I don't want you to feel shame. I don't want you to think you're a bad person. All I want you to acknowledge is that you got this one wrong. No big deal - we all get confused and make mistakes. I'm trying to keep the cost of your expression as low as I can.
I do indeed want the people involved in pizza-gate to cease making the accusations they are making - but I am not using any kind of force to achieve this outcome. Indeed - I believe it would be a worse result for all of us were I to resort to force. Instead - I'm using criticism in an attempt influence you. I wish you to cease your accusations - but only if you find my arguments reasonable and compelling. I can't force you into this. I can only rely on your innate sense of justice, goodwill and willingness to ensure you've done everything you can to challenge your own beliefs.
Thus there is NO sense in which I am censoring you.
I must confess I don't understand what you are trying to get across with this claim - I can't tell if you are intending some point of irony. Can you please elaborate your intention here?
Again - not censoring - for the reasons I gave above. Having said that I think we can rephrase your claim here to make it a little more compelling - by avoiding the reference to censorship. I think the result might better express what you are trying to get at. Let's try:
a) By reason alone everyone should realise they should not publicly make serious accusations without evidence that goes beyond the mere speech of those under suspicion. b) If a) is true then it follows that we should never discuss our concerns about the speech of others ever - even when they say really concerning things. c) But this outcome would amount to a significant curtailment of speech generally and intuitively violates the spirit of the principle of free speech (which seeks to maximise speech). d) But if we have violated the principle of free speech as a result - it could never have been reasonable to believe that everyone must refrain from expressing their concerns about the speech of others. Thus premise a) - must be false.
This is a reductio-ad-absurdum and is the best presentation of your argument that I can manage. I hope you feel it does you justice and matches your intent.
Stated as such - I think the argument is not without merit - and it actually warns us against a specific form of complacency that I completely agree we should guard against. But it does fail to keep the distinction between public and private discourse separate which is absolutely crucial. To fix it we need to change b) to:
b) If a) is true then it follows that we should never PUBLICLY discuss our concerns about the speech of others ever - even when they say really concerning things.
With this change - I claim that c) no longer follows. The curtailment of speech is no longer significant - it only curtails speech to the point where such speech itself would be an imposition on the free speech of others. It'll be easiest to understand this if we work through an example.
Consider the example of a person who for the most part seems to understand social convention - maybe he occasionally acts strange - but nothing certifiable. He has a job and family and people depend on him. Now suppose that in the middle of an otherwise joking conversation with a group of people - he suddenly assumes a calm, serious expression and begins to explain - in graphic detail - the pleasures of raping young children. At the end of this tale he suddenly looks mirthful again and asks if everyone understood his joke - and tries to get everyone to laugh about it.
Now this is merely an act of speech. But does it follow that those who witnessed his story shouldn't feel curious or concerned about what they heard? No - of course not. They should absolutely be concerned. I think we both agree that this is just common sense.
Does my view entail that they should NEVER express this concern or explore it? No it doesn't. My view is that they are allowed to express this concern privately - but not publicly. Everyone in that group was privy to the original discussion. Thus if they talk about it amongst themselves - then they are still only doing so privately - and thus are not violating his free speech. They are not causing him any harm he hasn't already caused himself.
But if - say - one person in the group expressed his concern to the man's boss - encouraging the boss to fire him? The boss wasn't present to hear it himself so this action is tantamount to a public accusation and would be a violation of what I advocate. It is imposing significant costs on the guy for what is still ultimately nothing but a joke - an extremely BAD joke - and certainly a worrying sign. But still - officially - a joke.
If you want to ensure no harm is coming to children - what can you do? You can take your concerns to the police and ask them to investigate it. That's what those institutions are for. It's possible the police won't be discreet in their investigation. But that's not your responsibility. If they end up publicly accusing him without sufficient evidence - that's on them, not you.
Finally - to bring it closer to the pizza-gate case - suppose the police refuse to investigate - but you remain concerned nonetheless. At this point I advocate hiring a professional private investigator - but doing so without publicly disclosing what you are doing.
So - overall - as I see it... nothing I have said shuts down curiosity entirely. It just sets up what I think are ultimately very commonsense limits to how you express that curiosity. They still give you plenty of options to ensure that your curiosity and concern are explored in a way that is fair to both parties.
The core of my argument is that if you don't respect those limits - then you end up yourself violating the free speech of others and causing immeasurable harm. This is an outcome that I know you don't actually wish.
Final point...
These points are really subtle - and take a lot of work to understand. And that's part of the reason why I have infinite patience for this discussion and I don't feel ANYONE should feel ashamed for getting this wrong. It's not your fault... it's our shitty schools and overall apathy that didn't teach most of us to carefully and painstakingly work through these concepts.
As long as you are working hard to understand this as best you can - you are doing as much as anyone could ask. Since you engaged in critical discussion with me - which takes time and effort to be sure - I count you as one such person.
2 DogmaDog 2016-12-02
By all of your logic then, JimmyComet is guilty of some serious self censorship. He removed posts with hashtag #murder and a photo of a baby with the hashtag #hotard.
Also, you took everything I said out of context. When I wrote 'investigation' I meant intimacy between two consenting adults.
When I wrote that you were censoring free speech I meant that you were eating dinner.
1 grovulent 2016-12-02
topkek...
2 randomevenings 2016-12-02
Great comment. Except I do believe they are breaking the law. Libel. They are slandering these people hardcore.
1 grovulent 2016-12-02
Well - if true - let that be evidence then that I am taking a VERY lenient view of what free speech is compared to mainstream society. So pizza-gaters should be doubly concerned that they are violating it.
3 randomevenings 2016-12-02
Yeah, this is what bothers me more than anything. I feel like the people here are sheltered suburban autists and anything representing gay culture or counter culture has some hidden darker meaning to them. And what's worse, they go on to accuse these people of something where just the accusation destroys lives. It's like none of these people have ever gone to a dive bar or been to a punk show or whatever. It's like they have never been to the "gay" side of whatever town they live in. They are sheltered and they are getting this out of context snapshot of people talking to people they know with in-jokes and "coded" language between friends and close colleagues, and they instantly assume it must be PEDOPHILIA?! Hell, this made me think of the e-mails and conversations between me an my own mother from back before she passed. We probably sounded nuts, but we had 30 years of history we could use as context when talking to each other and we liked to be creative and silly.
This whole thing is honestly pretty scary and it is a close look at how the satanic panic in the 90s happened. We look back and think how in the fuck did they allow that, but here we go again.
11 LucifersHammerr 2016-12-02
Sorry, but you still haven't haven't commented on the four points that end the piece. And yes I'm very familiar with punk bands and punk art. Have no problem with BDSM and gay culture either.
Really? When your mother shows pictures of you to her friends she says things like "chickenlovers" and "hotard"?
-1 randomevenings 2016-12-02
Oh shit well in that case let's murder him and his friends and family right now without a trial. We can't allow these people to say weird things.
Christ, listen to yourself.
2 Elmo_Tully 2016-12-02
Look at this photo, then look at the definition of "chicken lover".
http://vigilantcitizen.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/2016-11-12-13_58_47-Films-TV.png
http://www.definition-of.com/chicken+lover
-2 randomevenings 2016-12-02
Looks like a guy that may have been abused or know someone that has been in his past (common in gay community to understand abuse) and so familiar with that sort of thing making an in-joke with his friends or family. Who knows and who cares. it's Instagram not some private deep Web cache. What else is on that hashtag?
4 Elmo_Tully 2016-12-02
Have you seen any of the other photos from the jimmycomet instagram?
https://i.sli.mg/0woG5J.png
https://67.media.tumblr.com/88dfe912935629b7038bd3dd604b4b4a/tumblr_inline_ogaxysoA9y1t5zudu_540.png
https://dcpizzagate.files.wordpress.com/2016/11/moneybaby.png?w=840
0 randomevenings 2016-12-02
Yes, I didn't see a problem with any of them.
6 Elmo_Tully 2016-12-02
You don't see a problem with posting photos of children and hashtagging pedophilic references? I sure as hell don't see a chicken in the photo, but there is a baby.
1 randomevenings 2016-12-02
What if the parent's nickname for the kid is chicken? Chicken could be a baby food it likes, who knows?
2 Elmo_Tully 2016-12-02
"W ith fingers crossed, the old rabbit's foot out of the box in the attic, I will be sacrificing a chicken in the backyard to Moloch . ."
From the Clinton emails - https://wikileaks.org/clinton-emails/emailid/30489
2 randomevenings 2016-12-02
Sounds like someone wanting some good luck.
People act like it's an obscure reference. Moloch was the main villain in a popular TV show on at that time FFS.
7 The_ChaplainOC 2016-12-02
No, it's not a gay culture to sexualize children. It's a pedophile culture that sexualizes children.
2 [deleted] 2016-12-02
The argument seems to be that their ART and INNUENDO is enough to warrant suspicion of one of the worst forms of crime imaginable. ... ah , it's more than that... not just their freaky art and Spirit Cooking and Cryptic fish and number 14 on palms of hands... these are freaks to the Nth degree. No one is ruined. And what normal person likes , and displays sadistic quasi kiddie porn art? And has Majestic Ape as a band ... " We ALL have OUR PREFERENCES"... and some one from the audience Yells " Little Boys!!" and that creepy bitch speaks into the mic " I was their manager" .... just fucking weird. Hidden rooms ,handle less doors , hidden secret rooms... bathrooms hidden behind panel I would never and have never known such of a place so blatant. So , if I were them , and I WASN'T a pedophilic Satan worshiper ,I would find another way to express my artistic appreciation...something more appropriate.You see this type of weirdo shit doesn't sit well with normal people ... it just doesn't. Fuck Ping Pong.. Fuck the Pedo's . God only knows what's going on , and we will find out ... something , because I think that Wiki didn't dump everything . Some things they could not or would not dump en masse .. Downloading child pornography is a serious crime..so I'm positive we don't and won't have everything. ...
1 grovulent 2016-12-02
A big part of the problem - imo - is that most of us generally are not taught civics... and so they come to believe that mob justice can be legitimate.
I actually share much of their distrust of the current institutions tasked with investigating these sorts of things. But as I said - this does not give us the right to pursue justice in individual cases ourselves. This goes against the very core of the concept of a free and just society.
We should instead be devoting our energies to the reform of those institutions.
2 randomevenings 2016-12-02
I agree 100%. In the mean time, we should be glad the MSM isn't reporting this as fact. Can you imagine, being a family in the US, and one day some idiots on 4chan read your hacked e-mails between you and your mom and determine you are involved in some heinous crime, and go publish all your personal info, enlist millions on social media to harass you, and then get the media to fall in line and assume your guilt. You are blacklisted from society. I mean, we might as well be living in North Korea if we let that happen.
10 revoman 2016-12-02
Jimmy Savile CH5 Documentary March 2015 UK
10 thebabyseagull 2016-12-02
The only way I wil believe that there is nothing going on is if President Trump himself addresses the situation and announces some sort of public legal enquiry.
If the FBI investigated and found nothing I wouldn't believe them.
If the media investigated and found nothing I wouldn't believe them.
If Barry Bobama personally assured me all was well I still wouldn't believe him.
The evidence of some sort of wrong doing is overwhelming and the failure of any law enforcement body to investigate combined with the might of the worlds media trying to hush up the whole thing up stinks.
This has caused me to doubt the credibility of law enforcement and the media to the extent that I refuse to believe anything they have to say on the matter.
8 coolrobg 2016-12-02
Part of the problem with MSM is that it is beholden to the advertisers. No business, no matter how evil or corrupt, wants their commercial to air right before or right after a pedo story. Maalox, maybe. But that's it. Fact is, though, this is way too horrifying to not investigate. Someone, or some organization, needs to step up and take the lead. In the open. With the explicit intention of uncovering the whole truth, not just bits and pieces. The more investigators there are, the better. They can't kill everyone... But, expect the war drums to beat louder and louder the closer and closer we get to the truth. Someone mentioned "bio-bomb" below, as if the elites would set one off the more the light grows. I agree. They will, through false flags and fabricated enemies. It's difficult to sift through the disinfo garbage, the red herrings, the outright lies, to disseminate the truth. Keep striving, all. Keep striving.
8 illuminatiman 2016-12-02
"Jimmy's Instagram." - EXACTLY THIS. When i glossed over his instagram page and read the comments i felt immediate repulsion and disgust, something was completely off with him and his posts.
8 MandelaRabbit 2016-12-02
Honestly , the main thing that makes me think it's true is the amount of fear CTR pundits have about this story. This isn't remotely the first time people have tried to tie elites with scandals of this type. But this one had so much media coverage of it being false before things developed... I also think that 4chan anon's post alluded to something like this which worries me too.
8 twsmith 2016-12-02
On both of these, make sure to separate reality from spin. From the first telling I saw of what's now called "pizzagate", there's been a distortion of Podesta's art collection. That reddit post says "Keep in mind that this house contains art showing child abuse by Biljana Djurdjevic", but if you read the tweet he links, it says "Art by biljana djurdjevic, a fav of tony podesta". In other words, it's other art by Biljana Djurdjevic. If you actually open the article at the bottom of this page, the Djurdjevic paintings hanging in Podesta's home are Synchronized Swimming and Garden.
Incidentally, there's a video of Djurdjevic talking at the exhibit that includes Garden. It's not all that enlightening, though.
People also implied that Louise Bourgeois’ The Arch of Hysteria has something to do with Jeffrey Dahmer. It doesn't.
Podesta and his wife amassed a vast collection of about 2,000 museum-quality artworks before they split. Here's an imgur album of some works from their collection, including works in his house and ones that they have donated to the National Museum of Women in the Arts. As you can see, there are a wide variety of styles and themes.
The same caution applies to what's said about Marina Abramovic. People have been trying to pass off pictures from this benefit, which Abramovic attended, as if it's Spirit Cooking.
Abramovic has used the term Spirit Cooking to refer to several things:
Spirit Cooking — the etchings and book. (from http://www.editionjs.com/img/abramovic/ or MoMA)
Spirit Cooking — the exhibit and performance art.
Spirit Cooking — the fundraising dinner.
I can't pretend to have seen but a small fraction of Abramovic's work. There's nudity and sexual themes in some of it, but is there really "satanism, pedophilia and cannibalism"?
I've been meaning to watch some videos to learn more about her. Hopefully I'll have some time this weekend. I made a list of these, but I haven't watched any of them all the way through.
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7 wile_e_chicken 2016-12-02
There are eye witnesses. Cathy O'Brien, the kids in the Hampstead case, Corey Haim & Feldman, Nicole Kidman, Elijah Wood... I guess it depends on how narrow you define it, but there are many, many eyewitnesses to satanic ritual abuse in the ranks of the elite. Also, it appears that most of the children are murdered during or after the sessions -- in part, to eliminate witnesses.
Maybe no witnesses for Podesta... yet.
3 Blackdebby 2016-12-02
What's up with Nicole Kidman?
7 webofslime 2016-12-02
Totality of evidence is the term you should use, as it is used by judges in court.
The totality of the evidence is that an investigation is warranted by authorities.
The only way to make this happen is to report these people to the authorities, en masse. Then, they can tank the investigation. But, at this stage, people aren't acting to get even that far.
1,000 letters to CWS, FBI, Metro PD, IRS, etc, will get the ball rolling. It will generate attention.
According to a well researched article by Media Matters, of all places, Giustra's ties to gold mining in Kazakhstan go way back.
2008.01.31 After Mining Deal, Financier Donated to Clinton https://archive.is/cvAH0
2008.01.31 NY Times failed to note Giustra reportedly involved in Kazakhstan mining deals more than a decade ago https://archive.is/0Z3ef
I think the smoking gun for Pizzagate will be found when Frank Giustra get's tied to human trafficking. I have reason to believe the Kazakh mining interests owned by Giustra rely on forced labor from trafficked Mongolians. Considering how involved Giustra is in mining, all over the world, and the fact there is a "nexus of gold mining and human trafficking," it seems clear that he is brushing up against trafficking regularly in order to make money. Forced labor is just another cog in the wheel.
"The Nexus of Illegal Gold Mining and Human Trafficking in Global Supply Chains"
http://cdn.thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/28145358/Verite-Illegal-Gold-Mining-Report-FINAL.pdf
2016 Trafficking in Persons Report (State Department)
https://www.state.gov/j/tip/rls/tiprpt/countries/2016/258824.htm
Mongolian men, women, and children are subjected to forced labor in Turkey, Kazakhstan
7 astralrocker2001 2016-12-02
David Icke has exposed this for years and was laughed at..
6 Blackdebby 2016-12-02
Lauryn Hill has lyrics about this in several songs she released before she went to jail and her "conspiracy theory therapy" sessions.
6 flartibartfast 2016-12-02
I'll just throw this out, why would companies involved in this use known symbols to identify themselves? What purpose could that possibly serve other than to make them easy to investigate?
14 RileyPust 2016-12-02
Consider that the only reason we know about those symbols is the FBI told us about them. Even now the average person would have no clue what they're looking at.
6 The_Bohemian_ 2016-12-02
Actually, that FBI document that continues to circulate, originated from Wikileaks. It wasn't previously a released document.
1 RileyPust 2016-12-02
Yes I just discovered that
1 The_ChaplainOC 2016-12-02
I saw that FBI document on Facebook a while back. Not saying it didn't come from Wikileaks, but it was making the rounds a while back.
1 flartibartfast 2016-12-02
OK so what purpose do they serve? If everyone is in on it why would the FBI make these symbols known? Kind of gives away the game, no?
10 KingJames19 2016-12-02
We all know the little alien robot reddit guy. People who don't use reddit have no idea that robot alien guy advertises reddit. Pedo symbols are no different. The only difference is that a lot of us woke up and are now in the know regarding the symbols. Also, fwiw, the fbi without a doubt is complicit in this. They are pedo enablers
5 RileyPust 2016-12-02
Not everyone is in on it, though. I assume there are people in the FBI who genuinely do want to put a stop to it all (assuming for the purposes of this convo that pizzagate is real). These guys investigate pedophilia, and when their investigation takes them to a "dangerous place" like finding out your superiors are operating a giant pedo ring, you get shut down. Stone walled. The purpose of making those pedo symbols public was because not even the FBI can shut this shit down without help. I believe they're asking for help.
-1 flartibartfast 2016-12-02
But of course anything being released by the FBI goes through superiors (multiple layers of them), as well as PR people and so on.
9 RileyPust 2016-12-02
Well, I just realized that WikiLeaks actually leaked a document about these symbols awhile ago. Kind of a strange thing to release, seems a little different than their usual subject matter. FBI agent as the source?
WikiLeaks!
-2 cutol 2016-12-02
It seems so stupid to use any of those symbols since they exposed. That is just asking to be exposed, asking for unwanted attention. If you were a pedophile, you could not trust anyone using those symbols because they could be undercover law enforcement operative. You've have to be ignorant or careless or po-po to use those symbols.
Their usage seems soo damn stupid.
6 RileyPust 2016-12-02
Yeah but WikiLeaks revealed the Pedo symbols, contrary to what I said earlier about the FBI revealing them. Those symbols are how they communicate. They couldn't realistically just send out mass emails to inform people of the new symbols or means of communication. And the fact that WikiLeaks were the ones who revealed the info would seem to suggest that the FBI won't or can't do anything about it, a fact that the elite would be very aware of. Take the law enforcement agencies out of the equation and the only real way anyone is ever gonna get caught is if someone on the inside was gonna circumvent all usual and legal channels and release the info to the public. Which, evidently, happened.
1 cutol 2016-12-02
Of course not, they would handle their business like sensible people:
Is there any proof that those symbols are still in use? Any busts in since those symbols came to light? Any intel on what pedophiles think of their symbols being exposed? Do you think the intel would show that they don't care and would continue to use those symbols recklessly, because, hey, I've already got the letterhead printed up.
Do you think pedophiles, especially ones who operate massive operations that involve huge sums of money and powerful people are going to behave like buffoons and advertise their pedophilia in public for everyone to see? Powerful elite pedophiles would crush them fucks like whoa, for even sending out a whiff of endangering their nasty hobby.
3 RileyPust 2016-12-02
To your first point, these people are not just being implicated in pedophilia, they're being implicated in operating massive world wide pedophilia rings. They get all the clientele.
To your second point I say "why?" When they started advertising the symbols, the symbols were to talk to the elite. Specifically. The elite didn't adopt the symbolism from yoir average online predator, the symbolism would have started at the top. A politician brings his lawyer friend into the mix, the lawyer does dealings with pedophiliac local business owners, who begin to turn a profit by dealing with lower end clientele. Just like a drug ring. Code words and symbols.
To your third point, I would agree. The elites traveling the world and snatching children would not be advertising pedo symbols because they would (EDIT: Should say "would not") be looking to personally do business with your average joe pedo. But a place like Comet Ping Pong, who isn't selling children to the elites but to local pedophiles, might. A guy like Jimmy Comet might.
To your last point I say: Only an imbecile would store classified information on an unsecure network when their job title is Secretary of State.
5 sh3rog 2016-12-02
The issue is there is no way to easily change these things once in place. Not like they can very well put out a memo to all the pedos to let them know they are changing their dogwhistles
0 cutol 2016-12-02
If they're servicing the powerful DC elite, they wouldn't rely on advertising via their logo, they'd rely on word-of-mouth via trusted individuals. Surely, yes? It is ridiculous to think that they've been advertising themselves to any gutter pedo that walks in off the street and yet at the same time are catering to a clientele of the most powerful people in the world. Does that make any sense? No.
5 sh3rog 2016-12-02
The comet connection is not really logo based, its based on James Alefantis's instagram. The logos of nearby shops just raised red flags. And I don't think its solely an advertising thing, it's also hubris. These people are sick and they get more pleasure from taunting us like this
I also believe ping-pong is a code word. See my post here for more details https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/5faqqa/more_weirdness_from_our_friends_at_comet_ping/
1 cutol 2016-12-02
I'm sure there's an archive of that Instagram around here somewhere, yes? Link, thx. It's private now, cannot peruse.
2 sh3rog 2016-12-02
google "james alefantis instagram" it would have been quicker than asking me
0 cutol 2016-12-02
This is the 1st result. And it isn't damning in the least, most of the photos I cannot see how they could be twisted to imply pedophilia. Those instagram photos only provide evidence that innocent people are being hunted by an unthinking internet mob out for blood. Holy crap, you have to really twist hard to eke out even the craziest connections to pedophilia in those photos.
And that ping pong link above! It is a tremendous stretch to try to frame that as pedophilia -- a stretch that doesn't come close to reaching. Y'all are trying to mold the evidence to fit a predetermined conclusion, that's going to lead nowhere useful.
2 sh3rog 2016-12-02
hotard
chickenlovers
baby with money in mouth
baby for sale
none of this is ringing alarm bells?
1 cutol 2016-12-02
Those seem to be friends interacting playfully. Do you have any friends with kids? Do you have family? Sharing of photos of kids is what people with kids do. You cant seriously think 'baby for sale' indicates a genuine offer is being made.
From that curated selection of photos you can tell there is a group of people familiar with each other interacting with each in an often playful manner, as people frequently do. You can tell that there is also playful interaction between adults involving sexuality.
There is no indication of is pedophilia or abuse. The stretching involved in trying to twist their posts into something nefarious is ridiculous. Did you notice the number of photos from that link that seem to have nothing to with anything other than show that they are weird or artsy? Thats how far the stretching went: there is such a lack of evidence that they have to try to paint the targets as perverted weirdos, like the whole img link was put together by squeaky clean repressed puritans who are putting on the pretense of being appalled.
What is obvious from that link is that people are trying hard to force the narrative, trying to mold everything into the predetermined conclusion that the targets are monstrous pedophiles. The big problem is that there is not evidence to back up that conclusion.
2 sh3rog 2016-12-02
Yes and I have never seen anything like this. In fact I've trawled around looking for suspicious instagrams like Jamess and so far, have come across nothing anywhere near as suspect.
Yeah, so why doesn't James specifically explain what #hotard actually means and why it was a label applied to an infant?
Why doesn't he tell us where that digging was and the purpose?
This isn't hard, and I'm not saying we have the right to know this, but if I were in his shoes and innocent that's exactly what I'd be doing, not calling everyone bringing up the issues homophobic and racist
0 cutol 2016-12-02
I assumed it was for the people he was interacting with, as some playfully derogative ribbing between friends. I've not heard the term before, but that sounds like it could be a reasonable usage. What could it possibly mean when applied to an infant? Did he call the baby a retarded ho? That doesn't seem likely. Those people are his friends or co-workers or family, he would not seriously call their kid a retard right in front of them.
He has no responsibility to prove his innocence, his innocence is still intact, no one has proved him guilty of anything. I'm sure he's quite blustered by all the masses of trolls harassing him, his business, his friends, his family. Madness! For someone who has not been shown to have been guilty of any wrongdoing, he sure has been slandered and harassed pretty heavily.
2 sh3rog 2016-12-02
Well yeah if he didn't have another with #killroom and #murder and an image of a toy baby for sale, and an image of an infant with money in its mouth, and another image with presumably the same money next to a bottle of xanax labeled "Fun times in europe" then I wouldn't assume #hotard means retarded ho. But given all that other stuff yes that is where my head is at
0 cutol 2016-12-02
That toy baby is creepy as hell. I would love to have a copy of that. Probably quite expensive.
What is that a photo of? A walk-in freezer? The most reasonable explanation for that labels is that they are joking. They are not publicly advertising the space where they kill people. That makes no sense. So we are to assume that they showed off their murder chamber to all of their friends and any random person who stumbled on their Instagram: really though, for real, truly, for real, really?
Apparently killroom is also a pop culture thing, related to Dexter tv show? Hmm.
The photo of the baby with those stacks of euros in its mouth? Babies put everything in their mouths. Dunno what's up with the other photo with money and that pair of pill bottles.
Again, it appears to be all just people looking for pedophilia where none exists, and trying to frame everything to fit that narrative. They've posted some tacky sexual stuff, but nothing indicates anything relating to pedophilia. There really just isn't any solid evidence to indicate they are doing anything other than posting innocent shit on the internet.
Almost everything, or maybe even everything, about Pizzagate seems to fall apart when you actually look at it. Yet people soldier on, repeating debunked claims, posting the same photos and memes and exposes over and over that contain no actual proof of anything other than weirdness.
1 sh3rog 2016-12-02
Google MegaLolz
It's all a dark joke seems to be a recurring defense for pedophillia. Maybe pedophiles just have a inconceivably dark sense of humor? Because no one I know thinks its funny to call infants retarded ho's. Do you?
Ok so why didn't the NYT just show the damn photos? I know I wouldn't be here if they had...
It was the fact that this very powerful man, who's obviously got connections in media ahem David Brock ahem got a story published which didn't actually address the accusations. It read like they let him write the damn thing.
1 cutol 2016-12-02
Yah, he's in a position to handle damage control far better than most people. It would make sense if someone else wrote it for him, he does seem to have connections in that direction.
1 sh3rog 2016-12-02
Yet he seems so terrible at actually doing damage control. Like I said, if he had deleted his instagram and posted one image that said "This was a personal instagram. Some of the images have been seized upon and misconstrued by people for political reasons. The images are of my friends and family, and I would not like them associated with my professional life."
But no he shut it down and didn't say a thing until he got put on blast on the internet
1 RABLEVODARABLE 2016-12-02
If real its more about mockery/hiding in plain sight.
We are govern not by laws but my symbols.
6 scaredshtlessintx 2016-12-02
when you start a business...you spend time on a logo ...you've picked it on purpose...in most cases.
3 cutol 2016-12-02
If you're really on the ball you pay a professional to design something decent. Clueless people who do their own graphic design are responsible for so much ugliness in this world.
6 KingPinto 2016-12-02
Its a symbol for potential, "in the know" clients to identify. Obviously not every pedophile knows about every pedophile oriented business so symbols are needed to distinguish them for the clients.
"But the inscribed triangle is a common symbol?" you may ask. Well, there could be other aspects associated with the symbols that we aren't aware. For example, "pizza shops with inscribed triangles", "inscribed triangle with a store front next to a fire hydrant", etc.
-1 flartibartfast 2016-12-02
the mental gymnastics you guys have to go through to rationalize this is hilarious. All my adult life I have researched conspiracy topics, I've never seen any group stretch things so far as pizzagaters (ok, maybe nibiru people). One second everyone is in on it, then another no one is, and they need hobo marks to find businesses that will help them be depraved. They don't communicate in secret (although we know they do, that much is fact), no, they walk around looking for symbols on pizza shops. Can you not step back and think about this for a second?
0 cutol 2016-12-02
Good point. To communicate in such a blatantly reckless and idiotic manner would mean there'd be some real dumb fucks behind the operation. If these people are supposedly in cahoots with the upperest of the upper crust, then they would not communicate in such a manner. There's a lot at stake in that kind of business, to flaunt it so would be downright dumb.
People who were into that thing, powerful people, would not choose them as they pedo patrons, as they would be considered a risky choice, a place that proudly emblazons hints and clues to their operation. No way a pedo ring connected to the most powerful people in DC is run in a slipshod manner. That makes zero sense.
6 sh3rog 2016-12-02
Because the symbols weren't known until wikileaks leaked an internal FBI doc
The whole point of these symbols is that pedos know them and the general public doesn't. Dogwhistle would be the term used in politics for this kind of thing. The reason why they would continue to use them is it's not easy to change the iconography because they can't just put out an announcement saying "hey guys, publics onto us we gotta switch symbols"
They are supposed to be subliminal unless you're in the know
1 [deleted] 2016-12-02
[deleted]
5 sh3rog 2016-12-02
If it were fake, the FBI would have come out and said so. They haven't
1 [deleted] 2016-12-02
[deleted]
7 sh3rog 2016-12-02
*you're
Wikileaks has not once been shown to have published anything false.
Stop trying to spread disinfo please
3 thebabyseagull 2016-12-02
Maybe they didn't have to worry about any investigation?
Maybe it was allowed?
1 flartibartfast 2016-12-02
Although that implies the largest conspiracy ever imagined, let's pretend that is possible. My main question still stands - for what purpose would they use them? If the conspiracy is so huge it is not like they need to advertise their services, everyone would know who is involved without browsing corporate logos to try to find ones that look similar to the symbols.
4 thebabyseagull 2016-12-02
The DOJ conspired with Hillary Clinton to prevent charges being brought in the email case.
If they can conspire to cover the crimes of one of the most famous woman in the world while the public gazes on in curiosity then it would be nothing for them to hide the crimes of a couple of tiny pizza restaurants that no one has ever suspected or heard of.
To answer your question as to why I would say simply because they can.
If they no they would never be caught then why not run it like a professional business.Why should they have scurry around in the dark like rats,they have no consequences to worry about.
1 flartibartfast 2016-12-02
Sure, they advertise being involved in illegal things for fun. Something tells me this is not a satisfactory answer, even assuming that every law enforcement agent and department in the country is complicit in the coverup as you believe.
5 thebabyseagull 2016-12-02
The Clinton email scandal proved that you don't need every law enforcement agent on your side to stop an investigation, just a few at the top.
2 flartibartfast 2016-12-02
Except everyone knows about that investigation.
6 sh3rog 2016-12-02
Worked for Jimmy Saville for 40 years. Its easy enough to shut people up if you have the right leverage
1 dmwil27 2016-12-02
I have to agree with this statement. The amount of justification/mental gymnastics it takes to outright believe that these people are flagrantly displaying signs/symbols saying "Hey Kiddie-Diddlers! Come HERE to do kids!" is un fucking believable
3 RR4YNN 2016-12-02
Projecting your own capacity for reason onto others is generally considered a fallacy.
3 Mental_Cramp 2016-12-02
You are attempting to rationalize this under the assumption that these are ordinary people. Which baffles me. How could anyone attempt to explain criminal behaviors under such an assumption?
First you must admit that you don't know these people or whether they are guilty or not. We have obviously asserted that your first assumption is not guilty, so now you have to go back and review the evidence under the assumption that they are and weigh it out.
As for the why of the symbol, there's a very complex answer to that question but I think it's best if you have it explained by a professional that studies the psychological behaviors of criminals.
Why do criminals, particularly violent or abusive ones that feel entitled or immune feel the need to flaunt themselves and their crimes?
Some even feel the need to address LE directly or try to play games with them.
3 Blackdebby 2016-12-02
If this is all true then they are psychopaths. Psychopaths enjoy flaunting their crimes, duping you, tricking people.
3 [deleted] 2016-12-02
Why did that one pizza place CHANGE their logo, alter it? IF it was innocent , or caused suspicion , I think any normal person would completely scrub the interior decor , open up for discussion, make a public statement about how shocked they were that all their innocent online bragging and code speak , online pics , etc,. etc,.,. the volumes that have made thousands of people come to suspect them.... and I would address it , apologize and slink into obscurity.... Remember ALefantis , is named as number 50 in a list of D.C's most ' influential ' pedophile , I mean , er , people...
6 bman567 2016-12-02
This sheds light on the situation:
https://youtu.be/Urz-79upuLg
Also, when Assange said he had information coming out that would ruin Hillary for good, it's likely this was it. Look how far people are going to silence him. This will open up an investigation with huge implications and no telling how far this network spans.
5 LordPubes 2016-12-02
Remember how Jared from subway was nabbed? Damning, solid evidence. Evidence. Show that, not edgy bullshit art and facebook tier family pictures, and many others like me will be convinced. Until then this is more 80s and 90s "think of the children" satanic panic.
9 mrsnakers 2016-12-02
So you get to disregard all of this simply because in the 80's there was a blip in which Christians feared satanism in rock music? Must be nice.
And the evidence hasn't been found yet, this is the investigation part and said investigation is turning up a LOT of, at the very least, nasty language / imagery strange coded words for a family pizza place and those associated with HRC's team.
At the very least, you should be able to say "man some of those people are pretty weird and they use a coded language and some of this isn't appropriate for a family business and it is a little strange that they associate with important politicians" - which is not evidence of anything but should at least be considered and not entirely disregarded and perhaps give you a clue that maybe things aren't what they seem to be.
Maybe it's escorts.
Maybe it's drugs.
Maybe it's bribes.
Maybe it's something else entirely.
But regardless, you should be concerned.
9 cutol 2016-12-02
But they've been branded as pedophiles from the beginning, numerous people associated with them have been branded, and anyone who extols the virtue of not yelling pedophile in a crowded internet when there is nothing concrete to back it up is also instantly branded.
These are life-ruining accusations, and here they being made without any proof to back them up. The case is built on coincidence, pareidolia, "'think of the children' satanic panic", enabled by the momentum of an uncritical herd.
Pizzagate will be remembered as a callous witchhunt that only ended up fucking up others peoples lives, without enough evidence to even warrant a police complaint, without enough evidence to offer any conclusive proof of guilt.
It's some fucked-up shit. It's sad that there'll be a dozen replies to this calling me a pedo for trying to exercise critical thinking skills. The hivemind herdmob must be kowtowed to, or else you'll be branded a pedo-pal. Better to be a bully than the the one being bullied.
Pass me a torch, let's get to lynching!
6 mrsnakers 2016-12-02
So that's your response? Innocent people might get hurt? - while the entire basis for the investigations are that innocent children may be being hurt in a systematic ritualistic way and regardless of validity, something very eerie and extremely unprofessional is going on at a nightclub involving many of DC's elite - and yet you can't even acknowledge that due to your concerns.
In fact, you're now bringing up an entirely different concern. Not of evidence, but of appearance.
I suppose this doesn't have enough "weirdness" going on to convince you that anything out of the ordinary is going on because you are too concerned that someone might get labeled something they're not.
Of course, if everyone's wrong then the truth will win over, right? So what's the concern again? We will look callous and foolish. And you're concerned you'll be labeled a pedo for not buying in? Concern, concern, concern.
I don't buy that these are your original thoughts - that's more of a stretch than OP's conclusions.
But if it's evidence you'll want, be patient. It's certainly coming and it won't be in the form of coded words.
The truth has leaked out many times before, the timing of it this time around is all that matters here.
4 cutol 2016-12-02
"Think of the children!"
Not exactly a proud banner there.
The targets have been deemed pedophiles over weirdness? Surely a sensible move.
That's not how baseless pedophile witchhunts work. They targets of those witchhunts have their lives ruined, regardless of how glaringly innocent they are. You do not go around slathering people as pedophiles without evidence. The accusatations being throw around are irresponsible and reckless, exerting that nasty mob mentality and immunity to reason that accompanies witchhunts of this sort.
Oh, that's good to know. The reddit herdmob has already tried and convicted several people as pedophiles, without evidence of any wrongdoing, but it's okay because at some unspecified future date the 'truth' will come out. Surely another adept investigatory move.
Announce you're investigating the most powerful people in the world for running a satanic child-trafficking ring, then bumble about the investigation disregarding facts and reason simply because they obstruct the narrative, they blemish the predetermined guilt of the targets. If there ever was any damning evidence it'd be gone by now.
The evidence spurring on this faithfully inept investigation? Weirdness, bullshit codewords 4chan pulled from theiranus, and puritanical conjecture based on an almost total lack of anything resembling evidence, and an absolute total lack of proof that anyone has done anything wrong, a total lack of evidence that anyone has been harmed at all.
But we should think of the children! Think of all of the children that have not been shown to be in any danger from Alefantis et al.
I don't know what that means, but I feel slighted. I do sometimes have original thoughts. It's not totally unheard of, it has been recorded multiple times, probably.
7 mrsnakers 2016-12-02
I like the part where your account became active as a commentor for the first time the day of the election and you've solely been talking about programming, owls, arguing that wikileaks is compromised, and that pizzagate isn't real.
You're cute.
Where's your heart?
7 cutol 2016-12-02
This account has been active for over a year, and I've been on Reddit since 2013. There's no way you can realistically paint me as a shill or a plant. You'll have to address the arguments made, instead of trying to attack my credibility.
Dig deeper, I talk about a lot of shit. :P
7 mrsnakers 2016-12-02
You haven't typed a single sentence on reddit until 11-8-16 and now you're here to debunk the biggest conspiracy of all time. Totally legit.
4 cutol 2016-12-02
My account is over a year old and Ive been posting steady on it from day 1.
Edit: apoarently 15 months.
5 mrsnakers 2016-12-02
Posting articles to get your account in legit standing.
lmao if you don't think you at least look sketchy you're deeper in the doodoo than I imagine.
3 cutol 2016-12-02
Uhh, no, that never happened. Does reddit prune old posts? My post hostory is majorly pruned. There should be multiple posts for almost every day since Ive joined, but instead there appears to be large gaps in my history. Wtf?
I use reddit a lot, i post a lot, have posted at a similar rate since this account began. A whole lot of stuff looks to be pruned from my history. Is that normal??
2 cutol 2016-12-02
Holy crap, my account does look sketchy. Less than a month into my history almost all my posts are gone! Not even a month into my history its only showing submissions, its not showing comments I made. Who da fuck stole my history?? Is that normal? How does that happen? wtfwtf.
2 cutol 2016-12-02
Oh! My profile page is just not showing my comments older than 24ish days old. Those comments still exist, they just aren't shown on my profile. For example, from the sub I started, where I've commented on most every post for the entire last year: that comment was made 9 months ago, yet does not show up on my profile page. I could show many others examples of comments of mine that exist but don't show up on my profile page.
Wtf is up with that? Is that a thing reddit is doing nowadays, hiding comments and only showing submissions?
edit: oh man, that really sucks. I love to scroll back through my comment history sometimes. They stole my history! Muthafuckas.
I made a ton of comments during the run-up to the election, all hidden from my profile page. Why??
2 mrsnakers 2016-12-02
I see. Well, perhaps I'm jumping the gun but you do look sketchy af. No clue why your account would be missing so much. You sure you didn't delete it or use one of those history wiping apps?
3 cutol 2016-12-02
I asked Reddit help and they said that profiles only show up to 1000 posts. You can find posts of mine all over reddit that go back to when my account was created, using Bing\Duckduckgo or Yandex or Google. You can even find cached versions of my profile from months back on Bing and Yandex that shows posts that arent shown on my current profile anymore.
My level of activity on Reddit has been fairly steady since I opened the account, with comments far outnumbering submissions. I dont often have original content to add, I dont submit much.
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4 SpaceAgeCreations 2016-12-02
You are posting about an LG phone.. Smoking gun
I have used an LG G3 phone for years, and it's the worst phone I have ever owned. I could not write one good thing about it. Somehow I have a feeling only robots could be writing stuff about an LG phone on reddit ;)
2 cutol 2016-12-02
I wish I could be a robot. Not a fan of humans.
4 JonathonFlowers 2016-12-02
Sounds like something an undercover robot would say...
5 lisiate 2016-12-02
Magnificent summary of why pizzagate has to be considered seriously and not dismissed out of hand. There needs to be some real investigation done here.
5 bryoneill11 2016-12-02
What about the Moloch reference in one of the emails? This is the same thing as the Bohemian Grove.
Also you should include Wikipedia in your first list
3 Narog1 2016-12-02
yea the "Moloch email" is super creepy is probably something illegal going on
4 Orangutan 2016-12-02
What do you make of this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7198450.stm
Were the Podesta images sketches/drawings manufactured after the fact?
18 ZornsLemmon 2016-12-02
the podesta brother images were definitely there pre-pizzagate. They were first snagged right off the wikipedia page for her disappearance.
1 Orangutan 2016-12-02
Well we need to get a date for them somehow. Because the images from the BBC in 2008 definitely differ significantly. Date and Source requested for the Podesta images.
8 ZornsLemmon 2016-12-02
Its on wikipedia. It's sourced.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/oct/14/british-detectives-efits-madeleine-mccann-suspect
3 rigorouspanda 2016-12-02
that article states the e-fit image is of one suspect not two.
5 ZornsLemmon 2016-12-02
believed to be the same man.
They're wrong.
4 thebabyseagull 2016-12-02
How would different witnesses know they are describing the same person?
This is speculation.
5 The_Bohemian_ 2016-12-02
Definitely the key problem with the folks that keep iterating that its supposed to be the same person. Different witnesses observed several strangely behaving actors. At two different times, two separate witnesses claim to have observed a person carrying a child but there is no indication that it is the same person carrying the child in each observance.
The descriptions seem to differ enough, that were these people actually in view of Madelines abduction, its more likely that there was a handoff at some point.
-2 baluchithyrium 2016-12-02
They are describing the same person because both fits come from members of the Smith family, each of whom saw a single man carrying a young girl down a street as they returned home from a bar on the night Madeleine disappeared. It's dispiriting to see this simple fact overlooked in what was an otherwise excellent write-up by the creator of this post.
-5 rigorouspanda 2016-12-02
It also states that the suspect is believed to be aged between 20-40 which is too young for either Podesta at the time, they're also described as being of medium build. John is a small build and Tony is large build. So beyond certain facial similarities the descriptions do not seem to match.
1 rigorouspanda 2016-12-02
why source something and then completely dismiss said source. mind boggling.
-2 fmoly 2016-12-02
That article says both sketches are of the same man? I guess it's not the Podesta brothers then.
8 ZornsLemmon 2016-12-02
it says BELIEVED to be the same man. Well guess what, it's not.
7 mrsmsteele 2016-12-02
I have been on a missing child forum for years. I went back and checked and those pictures were there.....I couldn't remember and wanted to know for my own clarification.....
1 Rabbithole48 2016-12-02
Could you link ?
4 mrsmsteele 2016-12-02
Ok, so I went to the original source, I was not aware that the info said the sketches were done in 2008 and not released until 2013, that is bizarre......but it freaks me out that they look so much like the Podesta brothers http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/madeleine-mccann-what-do-we-know-about-the-case-9330875.html
3 twsmith 2016-12-02
The sketches ("e-fits") were created in 2008 by a team of investigators from Oakley International that were hired by the McCanns’ Find Madeleine fund. They were released to the public in 2013.[1]
They are based on the sighting of a man (not two men) carrying a child near the hotel where Maddie McCann disappeared, at around 10pm. Several members of the Smith family gave statements to the police a few weeks after the disappearance.](http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_SMITH.htm They described the man as "about 35/40 years old", "about 35 years, or older", and "between 20/30 years of age" (the last one was from a 12 year old girl, so should be considered less reliable).[2]
The Podesta brothers—besides being two people, not one—were 59 and 63 years old in 2007.
Four months later, "Martin Smith contacted our department stating that after having observed the McCann family on TV alighting from the plane, he believes that the person he saw carrying the child that night was Gerry McCann."[2]
But he later changed his mind and "Smith has since stressed that he does not believe the man he saw was Gerry, and Scotland Yard do not consider this a possibility. Last week the McCanns were told officially by the Portuguese authorities that they are not suspects."[1]
In 2008, the private investigators re-interviewed Martin and Mary Smith and the e-fits were created based on that.[1]
The investigators included the e-fits in their report. But the report wasn't released because it "was hypercritical of the people involved . . . It just wouldn’t be conducive to the investigation to have that report publicly declared because . . . the newspapers would have been all over it. And it would have been completely distracting."[1]
[1] http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic21297.html
[2] http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_SMITH.htm
4 throwingthisout44 2016-12-02
Thanks for taking the time to lay this all out.
3 Aarno4412 2016-12-02
Quotes on coincidences:
3 1didwhatihadtodo 2016-12-02
https://i.sli.mg/eoWIeB.jpg
5 LucifersHammerr 2016-12-02
Not bad but I have a few criticisms:
The alleged "food code" was made up by some guy on 4chan and should not be considered evidence.
The email about "walnut sauce" is irrelevant as there is video footage of Podesta making it. He really is a chef.
there are three food emails that don't make much sense: "hot dog stand in Hawaii", "pizza related" handkerchief map and "dominos on cheese or pasta." I'm not even sure the food references should be mentioned at all beyond saying some of them are strange. Better to link the Podesta's to Comet Ping Pong.
Needs more artwork from Tony's house. The alleged "jeffrey dahmer" statue is by sculptor Louise Bourgeois. She has not claimed she was inspired by Dahmer, though the similarities are interesting.
More of Jimmy's instagram should be featured.
Luzzatto is absent.
the punk rock posters prove nothing and are a waste of space. Instead of showing those pictures they should show the kim noble poster and stills from Amanda Kleinman's music video "The Neutered Noel."
2 1didwhatihadtodo 2016-12-02
didnt make it, just pasted it
3 [deleted] 2016-12-02
Very good post. Archived for future reference here:
https://web.archive.org/web/20161203000334/https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/5g3ywi/for_pizzagate_skeptics/
3 Tinie_Snipah 2016-12-02
I have no doubt that some form of paedophilia/paedophilic ring is operating at high levels of governments. It's come to light in recent years of similar things happening in my own country and I just can't believe that the UK is the only place in the world this exists, but rather the only place it has been uncovered. I just don't think pizzagate is it, because there's just not enough factual evidence to me. Too much of the theory relies on interpretations of words and very tenuous links
3 LucifersHammerr 2016-12-02
That's a fair position I suppose. I should reiterate that Comet Pizza is not the be-all-end all of Pizzagate. It was merely a starting off point. A lot of people are now investigating potential child trafficking involving the Clinton Foundation, which seems like a useful endeavor even if the pizza stuff turns out to be bullshit -- which remains to be seen.
2 ragecry 2016-12-02
Excellent skepticism and analysis. I'll throw in a few more things here when I get a chance.
2 Mrexreturns 2016-12-02
Not suprising. Occult and degenerate practices are in the ruling classes since ancient times. You know that King James (The one who wrote the KJV) persecuted "witches" and practiced witchcraft himself right?
2 Aaronmcom 2016-12-02
The pizza isn't children. It's probably drugs. Go back and read the email as drugs and it makes 20 times more sense.
Hell, it might actually be just pizza and pasta.
Two ping pong paddels crossed? Makes it a pedo symbol? Ffs.
Look, Im on my phone and i cant reply to every single thing on the list. Throw something at me that I can't easily dismiss
10 LucifersHammerr 2016-12-02
Those points are irrelevant to my post. I myself said the food references could be drugs, and I made no mention of the ping pong logo.
4 Aaronmcom 2016-12-02
Then whats the link between the podesta and the pizza place?
4 The_ChaplainOC 2016-12-02
Alefantis is buddies with Tony Podesta. He hosted Alefantis birthday party which featured the flaccid penis birthday cake.
Alefantis sent John Podesta several emails, which is how his name came to be googled and his Instagram with the sexualized pics of babies and toddlers on it was exposed.
0 Aaronmcom 2016-12-02
Show me evidence of these sexualized babies and toddlers photos
2 The_ChaplainOC 2016-12-02
hotard....
2 Aaronmcom 2016-12-02
Hoe retard. Insulting and dickish, not exactly sexualized.
Sure hoe is a term for sex workers but words like bitch and motherfucker have meanings that aren't used either.
Again. I see no sexualized photos. Just stupid hashtags.
Look weird dark humor https://youtu.be/3IikUnX1WQ0
Edit: fuck this waiting six minutes to reply dickshittery.
Calling a baby a hoetard doesn't equal pedophilia.
I have said "I personally will abort all the unborn babies!" what does that make me? Nothing, because I was pissing off pro lifers.
3 The_ChaplainOC 2016-12-02
Because describing babies as hotard is something normal people do.
1 Aaronmcom 2016-12-02
Made an edit above, not waiting 6 minutes trying to reply to 3 different people.
3 The_ChaplainOC 2016-12-02
Maybe it's just me, but there is never a justification for sexualizing children.
1 Aaronmcom 2016-12-02
I agree with you. I for one am pretty appalled by the shit pageant moms put their kids in.
But calling a baby a hotard isn't sexualization. I call my friends cocksuckers but i'm not sexualizing them. Girl friends call each other hobags all the time. No sexualization.
1 The_ChaplainOC 2016-12-02
Sexualizing a baby with its mouth open by calling it a hotard is never acceptable in a civilized society.
Sexualizing children as a constant theme on your Instagram is a red flag that something is very wrong.
1 Aaronmcom 2016-12-02
HOLY FUCK BATMAN
http://vigilantcitizen.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/2FyXrV.png
YOU DUMBFUCKS
joe willis calls jimmy a hotard.
Then jimmy calls joewillis a hotard.
You dumb mother fuckers! He wasn't even accrediting hastags to the baby anymore!
1 The_ChaplainOC 2016-12-02
"Baby....yum."
1 Aaronmcom 2016-12-02
OH LOOK! AN OLD FUCKING MEME! google image search "atheists eat babies"
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-i9GQ_gfbXGw/U8ZDdrNvPGI/AAAAAAAAAPs/AxDCgC-Kxc4/s1600/EatBabies.jpg
https://paddyk.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/atheism2.jpg
https://whyevolutionistrue.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/atheism-eating-babies.jpg
1 The_ChaplainOC 2016-12-02
No, just no.
1 Aaronmcom 2016-12-02
is that your response when your argument falls apart?
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/d1lTCjqYFC2T805OIOPAHOajeYUB-IrdVNabY4fOXKXfl6bpUMUJElmEKd-2eAKU_adZJIgcBVn-amw=w2560-h974-rw
it looks like hes about to cook the baby with the pizza paddle. Literally nothing sexual about it.
2 The_ChaplainOC 2016-12-02
If you have all the images from Alefantis Instagram and do not find his constant habit of sexualizing children questionable, then that is what it is.
I however find them to be suspect and highly improper.
1 Aaronmcom 2016-12-02
Thats just it. He didn't sexualize the children. Both examples. In hotard he was refering to @joewillis. And yum baby had no sexual conotation whatsoever.
So where the fuck are you pulling this from!?
2 The_ChaplainOC 2016-12-02
Why do you keep asking people to give you the sexualized pics of the kids that Alefantist posted and then turn right around and quote the captions and try and defend them?
2 Aaronmcom 2016-12-02
Because I was proving that there were no sexualized images because there weren't any to post. So you deflected to the hashtags and I threw your own curve ball right back at rocket speed directly to your forehead
1 The_ChaplainOC 2016-12-02
You swung but you missed little britches.
2 MadMonkey119 2016-12-02
"Raw and uncut" is from here
http://evelynneaville.blogspot.com/2009/11/grand-tam-and-luzattettes.html?m=1
I believe she is just referring to the pictures/footage. Like I can't imagine her opening Movie Maker to splice some footage up or photoshop to touch up the photos. The coverage is "raw and uncut". Thinking the baby is a big deal she sets up the blog after its born and then clearly loses interest over time.
Otherwise good post
2 LucifersHammerr 2016-12-02
That's not the way it sounds:
Well, if it's what you claim she sure has a weird fucking way of talking about the kids. Maybe she's lost her marbles or something.
2 MadMonkey119 2016-12-02
The time your spending with the baby is via footage and pictures. The footage is raw and uncut. I think that isn't too strange.
/r/footage describes itself as the subreddit for raw uncut footage.
1 know_comment 2016-12-02
see this was one of the few things you said that gave me pause to re-evaluate the situation. but it turns out, like much of the "evidence" that it may be just misinterpreted/ misrepresented.
much of what you question whether or not it could be "coincidence" is being heavily leveraged by your interpretation. if you really want to understand how people with the opposite opinion think, you have to step outside of your bias.
when you say that "maybe it's a coincidence that the shops around comet use pedo symbolism", i say- that is too broad an interpretation of pedo symbolism. the ampersand in the prose and politics sign? crossed ping pong paddles? it appears to me as pareidolia.
again, when you think about cognitive bias- is your reaction to my perspective an emotional one? as much as you can say "why would the media be spending so much time debunking this if it wasn't true?", the same thing goes for how you interpret evidence. If I tell you that I don't see most of these things as evidence of a pedofile ring, because I don't even see them as coincidences- i see people misinterpreting facts to suit a narrative they were already emotionally invested in, what's your internal response? Is it to look at it from my perspective, or is it just to discredit me because it feels like I''m attacking you. I'm not attacking you, but i suspect that this feeling about pizzagate is internalized, because i just don't personally see this investigation as very analytical. And in this case- i don't even see it as cherrypicking so much as I see a lot of just plain misinterpretation.
The hastert thing is a bit of a red flag as far as I'm concerned- though he's not necessarily a pedo as much as he is a predator/ sociopath. the antinous profile picture is demonstrably a red flag which leaves less room for interpretation- but these point more to grooming gay teenagers than to satanic ritual child trafficking.
2 spezzingout 2016-12-02
I've viewed all of the facts over and over again, and given my critiques over and over again (this isn't my first reddit acct). For my own peace of mind, I'm not going to dive too far into specifics. I'm tired. But I do want to speak up and you can take it or leave it:
The investigation has uncovered evidence that these people are corrupt (shocker). It has uncovered that they are a bit fucked up in the head (another shocker). What it has not uncovered is evidence of child abuse. None.
I'll dig into one, just one thing: The entire case for interpreting the emails as pedophilia rests on the post of one person on one 4chan thread. It's obvious that pizza and handkerchief do not mean the dictionary definitions, unless someone types the most retarded emails when they're drunk. What isn't obvious is that our assumed definitions of these are true. If we assume that our definitions of pizza and handkerchief are possibly false, the ENTIRE narrative crumbles.
Now look, I'm not saying that the investigation isn't worth performing. It is. But the trail has run cold and in the absence of new information, people started adding in really dumb shit like comparing drawings from crimes and saying "looks similar, PROOF!" This further undermined the entire investigation, especially when people started lumping the evidence together and included the dumb shit with it.
I love a good conspiracy theory, and I'm very convinced that there is one to be found. I am not at all convinced that it is what people think it is. We don't know how they use code words and until we do, we don't know what we've uncovered. Everything beyond that was confirmation bias.
If the investigation is to get anywhere, it needs to be restarted from the top in a small, closed group of people so that people cannot inject false information into the investigation and then propagate it as the narrative. The people holding intelligent conversation and legitimately investigating the data with an open mind were quickly drowned out by a flood of unreasonable voices. Maybe those were CTR, maybe they were someone else, maybe they were just a bunch of dumb kids. I don't know. All I know is I watched reasonable people downvoted and blatantly false information massively upvoted. The narrative was hijacked by someone, and so was the investigation.
4 LucifersHammerr 2016-12-02
Your complaints are valid. However the food references are not particularly significant in my view. They are only significant insofar as they led to Comet Pizza. The reason people lept to the pedo conclusion is because of the article quoting (unnamed) NYPD sources who stated that Clinton was herself directly involved in underage sex with Huma and had traveled six times to Jeffrey Epstein's sex slave island.
Now, it may well be that you're right: these are deeply disturbed individuals but not criminals. Their strange response to the scandal does not appear to support this view, but perhaps you're right. It would be quite easy to put the matter to rest if the people being accused just explained themselves. Instead they are bizarrely claiming everything is "fake news".
If Comet turns out to be a dead end, which it probably will, I still think people should investigate potential child trafficking links to the Clinton Foundation. Those efforts are underway as we speak on the Voat Pizzagate site.
2 [deleted] 2016-12-02
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1 spezzingout 2016-12-02
Absolutely. That's why I think the investigation is of value and needs to continue. I just think it needs to be conducted more privately where outside influences cannot interfere (injecting theories with no credibility and then upvoting them, while downvoting logic). I also think it needs to be scrapped and it needs to be considered from a fresh, new perspective. That goes far beyond something I have time for, I'm afraid, or I'd gladly attempt to take a lead at it.
1 [deleted] 2016-12-02
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2 spezzingout 2016-12-02
Or perhaps as simply as a closed off conversation via slack, etc. Just something where dumb kids, CTR, or whoever can't pop in and pollute the information.
2 Sub7Agent 2016-12-02
http://www.inquisitr.com/3762538/pizzagate-news-bbc-supports-james-alefantis-but-did-they-catch-him-lie/
Found lieing about a basement.
2 [deleted] 2016-12-02
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2 The_ChaplainOC 2016-12-02
/u/lucifershammer - Hey, when people ask you for the images, or imply that the images are doctored, just be aware that CTR is trying to find all the images and have them taken down.
It's a brave new world, if Crispy wanted to see the images he could use Google.
1 [deleted] 2016-12-02
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2 The_ChaplainOC 2016-12-02
Can't help you there. I am of a mind that if I can find them anyone could.
I saw the entire feed before it was shutdown and as far as I can tell, the archives I've seen completely replicate his IG.
2 littleboylost78 2016-12-02
Two fucking words for anyone dismissing this: Jimmy fucking Saville. That sick bastard got away with it for YEARS. The BBC knew what he was doing and protected him. John Lyndon called him out for it in 1978 and got banned from the station. Check out YouTube, loads of people working for the BBC joking about JS. If they knew, you'd better believe many others did too. Now the Beeb are calling the latest wave "fake news". What a fucking nerve.
2 FrankGreen_12 2016-12-02
OP should also mention the "handkerchief map to pizza". I've never heard a justification for that one that made any fucking sense.
All these high level politicians are more obsessed with pizza than a room of starving first-graders, so much so that they print a map to all the best pizza places on a handkerchief....yeah, that sounds totally legit, right?
2 jupiter-marino 2016-12-02
If the photo posted by Alefantis on Instagram with the caption "#chickenlover" is undoctored, that's proof enough.
That's not a joke, that's fucked up. There's nothing innocently coy about it and it's not just "a gay man's sense of humor." As a gay man, I'm insulted that anyone would justify it by claiming that it's normal for gay guys to think something like that is funny.
There's too many connections for all of this to be merely coincidence and everyone claiming that it's unfair to these people's reputations immediately seems like a shill to me. History should tell you that if it talks like a pedophile, it's probably a pedophile because this shit has been going on forever and it's ALWAYS swept under the rug.
2 FloridaMom13 2016-12-02
Thank you for taking the time to put this together, this is probably the most coherent summary I have came across!
The point that gets me is basically the double standard. If a regular "Joe" was accused of CP there would be some type of investigation/inquiry by some level of law enforcement... but not so in this case. I also beilve it to be odd that none of the suspected people have came forward to deny or set the record straight. Imagine if you were being accused of such things...would you just quietly sit by waiting for it to pass???
2 RexAxisMundi 2016-12-02
Fantastic post. Too many coincidences for there not to be something to it.
2 mrsmsteele 2016-12-02
Does anyone have a verifiable link between the Podestas and Clement Freud(yes one of THOSE Freuds)? He had a home in Portugal, very close to where Madeline went missing and the McCanns were there after she was abducted...... http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/living-through-every-parent-s-nightmare-1.578444
1 thereddespair 2016-12-02
i dont think the idea is that the whole thing is completely made up drama. i believe that there are real children being victimized here and there are real predators.
but its not different from ISIS, it does exist, and they are killing people over there and people are dead. but the scenario is puppeteered for a bigger agenda.
maybe it wasnt originally intended for this purpose even but it was spun and repurposed now. to turn a loss into a win.
has times really changed and we also just accept it now for what it seems.
1 pizzagateinvestigate 2016-12-02
"Pedos make up at least 4 percent of the population"
4%???? Do you have a link handy for that? Sounds outrageously high.
2 chillmorebeersnow 2016-12-02
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=what+percentage+of+population+is+pedophillic
1 pizzagateinvestigate 2016-12-02
I've seen different figures which I why I wanted to know specifically which source they were referring to.
1 LucifersHammerr 2016-12-02
http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,232584,00.html
1 Ydoc71 2016-12-02
if it quacks like a duck, and walks like a duck..
1 5arge 2016-12-02
The media does not investigate and prosecute criminals.
1 RickTarded1 2016-12-02
It's a fucking psyop, true or not look at how the media and the politicians are using this against us.
2 Astranagun 2016-12-02
If it's true what do you suggest? Stop talking about it because it's a psyops?
1 RickTarded1 2016-12-02
I don't know, as long as people are aware and stay skeptical. I think they're playing us pretty succesfully. Everybody get so emotional when we need to be rational. I mean clearly photoshopped "evidence" is being used. That's not to say that I did'nt fall for it to, initally.
1 TherealScrable 2016-12-02
And that is where the Lizard people are literally shaking
Seriously though, I wouldn't be surprised if the whole west's elite is involved in this shit.
Keep on doing your hard work, people. These criminals need to go down.
1 brimstone18 2016-12-02
THIS NEEDS TO BE STICKIED!!!
1 zeropoint357 2016-12-02
Best post evah. Many thanks OP.
1 The_ChaplainOC 2016-12-02
Nice work.
1 djklbd 2016-12-02
I couldn't have said it better myself mate. I would think a pedophile ring involving some of our most prominent world leaders would be something I couldn't simply "brush off" as a conspiracy theory.
The investigation will continue and it will bring these people down.
1 [deleted] 2016-12-02
[deleted]
1 Exec99 2016-12-02
Link?
2 Caliginosity 2016-12-02
https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/56492
1 Exec99 2016-12-02
Thanks!
1 Deadpool_666 2016-12-02
Still you can't disprove Gobblins, so lets talk about, how we aren't talking about them. Gobblins they are in government and they're coming to take your guns. Gobblins. And they're mostly from places you can't have a tough time finding on a map. Gobblins.
1 Deadpool_666 2016-12-02
And they're Green.
1 corn_of_action 2016-12-02
Congratulations, you've debunked all the shills. Now all that are left are people like me who agree with you. So I will ask, what do we do? I'm planning on building a community as independent from socitey (a.k.a. the puppets of the U.S. federal government) as possible. What can we do on a large scale to fuck these people over as they have fucked us?
1 Domenicaxx66xx 2016-12-02
I keep saying that if even one of these things MIGHT be true, not only how could people still vote for Hillary but it should be mandatory to do everything possible children from abuse. Child protection agencies are supposed to protect first ask questions later.
1 RussianLiberal 2016-12-02
I've tried debunking several statements about PizzaGate before, but never this many. Hold on tight!
So, I looked it up and this is what
fake"alternative" news websites are claiming:First of all, Terosol is not a "non-profit that specializes in at-risk youth." It's actually a Bistro & artisan gallery. It describes it self as an "Intimate cafe featuring traditional French cuisine & a boutique selling artisan handcrafts."
Source
The claim that it has a picture of a heart in a heart as their logo is also wrong. Here is the above portion of their homepage. Just flowery stuff. But no heart-in-a-heart.
They used to have a heart in a heart symbol, but removed it from their homepage between November 6 and 14, judging from the archive links. But the heart in a heart symbol is actually quite commonly used. Just look. Just because it's been used by a few pedos doesn't magically mean you can retroactively call all those who have some form of that image pedophiles. They most likely removed it due to the massive amount of backlash by, uh, "concerned" citizens.
The only true statement is that their homepage has a picture of Hillary. There's another picture of Madeleine Albright too. This is most likely for advertising purposes, like "hey, look, famous people come here!"
There are also claims that a charity across the shop, http://beyondborders.net, is funded by the CF. I was unable to find any evidence of this.
Now, for the second of the two businesses. From the same "alternative" news website, it claims:
That logo is a triangular logo, since pizzas are triangular. Google "triangular logos" are you'll find many such logos.
I looked this up, and there's more info here:
So, Sasha Lord is someone who basically creates posters for these performances and organizes them. Here is how she describes herself on her website:
Here is some of her poster art: http://www.sashalordpresents.com/poster-art/
It seems completely normal to me.
Actually, she graduated with a degree in literally working with at-risk populations:
I mean, she spent years studying for this, so it doesn't seem strange.
That doesn't really indicate anything to do with pedophillia, I agree.
That seems normal.
I debunked this already:
https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/5fwsvd/this_was_just_promoted_aka_sponsored_on_my/dap7zsm/
https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/5fwsvd/this_was_just_promoted_aka_sponsored_on_my/dapl23k/
https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/5fwsvd/this_was_just_promoted_aka_sponsored_on_my/dapwbt2/
I found a primary source for this and I think it speaks for itself. Read it:
https://books.google.ca/books?id=HsCh8Mj2XlYC&pg=PA19130&lpg=PA19130&dq=podesta+butchering+pigs&source=bl&ots=6FuM67vyL8&sig=Q_1B4FiVBuwApjZAPko25X8lxFU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwja8LCct9jQAhVK94MKHfuoCoQQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=podesta%20butchering%20pigs&f=false
I believe Podesta declined to go to a dinner with her.
I don't see how Brooks is connected to Comet.
If Tony was involved, then he would have been arrested too.
OK.
He's moving near Comet?
No, just food. The food references need context.
Debunked one such reference here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/5fwsvd/this_was_just_promoted_aka_sponsored_on_my/dao5djh/
https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/5fwsvd/this_was_just_promoted_aka_sponsored_on_my/daobonr/
https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/5fwsvd/this_was_just_promoted_aka_sponsored_on_my/daoc8cz/
Oh come on. Just look: Reverse Speech of Amanda Kleinman Speaking INSIDE COMET PIZZA
This is ridiculous.
Or its possible that since Clinton is a well-known figure, the thousands of random people "investigating her" and any of their deaths get mistaken for the Clintons having "killed" them.
Snopes: Haiti Mongers
Meh, nothing old people I know don't say. Some of it is weird, but would you call a mother telling her baby "Oh, you look so cute I could just eat you up!" a pedophile too? Of course not.
I already debunked this here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/5fwsvd/this_was_just_promoted_aka_sponsored_on_my/daohjmq/
https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/5fwsvd/this_was_just_promoted_aka_sponsored_on_my/daojibv/
https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/5fwsvd/this_was_just_promoted_aka_sponsored_on_my/daombcy/
The raw and uncut time is yet another one of the countless things that are so vague anyone can twist them into meaning anything.
As for the "entertainment" sentence, keep in mind she was talking about her own kids and was referring to their visit to a farm. Are kids entertaining at farms? Yes or no? I can personally attest to kids being entertaining at apple farms!
Vague references to food + no context to us outside observers + Pareidolia + Backmasking fallacy + hatred of Clinton/Soros conveniently expressed with this made-up controversy + winding down of U.S. elections and thus no boogeyman to bash anymore + narcissistic individuals looking to boost their egos by pretending they're "saving children" =
PizzaGate
As a sidenote, something you all should read:
You Americans are one of a kind. You just never learn.
1 madhya462 2016-12-02
to be honest, I was riveted and thoroughly convinced about pizzagate since Podesta emails first started flowing. The moment I began losing interest was when the Abramovic/Spirit Cooking stuff first popped up. People talking hysterically about satanism and human sacrifice..
I'm not a fan of Abramovic in the slightest, but she is well-established and respected in the art world, and she got that way by doing edgy, avant-garde, controversial shit. A lot of the artwork related to pizzagate falls under that category. The edgier, the better for some people -- they eat it right up. But it's art -- and freedom of expression. Embracing works of art as evidence of pedophilia made the whole thing feel more like a witchhunt than anything, and it makes for an easy defense: people fear what they do not understand.
That being said, there's plenty of art-unrelated aspects of this investigation that are beyond compelling. I keep coming back because it's impossible to dismiss some of this stuff, and the consequences of being wrong and doing nothing here are too high.
Again, I'm not a fan of the 'art' that's been intertwined in this whole thing -- in fact, art mostly confuses me or pisses me off. I don't personally have an appreciation for it, but I respect that some people do, and that is their right to exercise. I just wanted to share where the investigation soured for me, and perhaps for others as well.
1 chilover20 2016-12-02
I have not read all comments, so forgive me if this has been discussed. When I started reading all these connections, I started thinking back. When Clinton was governor of Arkansas, there was a raid at a hotel in Little Rock by Sheriff Tommy Robinson.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_F._Robinson He was an uncontrollable maverick. Was a wild toga party of politicians and elite of Little Rock. Rumors of a wild orgy. Was a huge scandal. I can't find articles about this, but there should be lots. At that time there was a lot of animal mutilation happening. Lots. Was big news along with satanic worship. Pentagrams, symbols and evidence of fire and rituals. There were also child abductions that have never been solved. Then there was this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Memphis_Three Just seems like when they went to DC all this stopped in Arkansas. Now it seems to be following them to DC.
1 bitfriend 2016-12-02
There is only one standard for situations such as this:
pics or it didn't happen
Everything else is circumstantial.
n/a supermailvitality 2016-12-02
Why no mention of the pizza map hankerchief or playing dominos on pasta?
0 4esop 2016-12-02
Lets entertain the idea that everything is true. What makes you think that doing the investigation in a public forum is a good idea? Can you imagine if criminals had access to police files as an investigation developed? Sure would be easy to plant some misdirection up the path a little way.
About your 4 points at the bottom:
I don't have sources for some of this info so it's hard to evaluate in most cases.
Did you verify DKIM on ALL emails related to the evidence you are presenting? One big thing about all the emails is that only a portion of them are signed. The news story about DKIM went a long way towards making people forget to check. You have to throw out emails that don't have DKIM if you want verifiable info as there is no valid chain of custody.
Where do you get the info that John deleted his emails on date that McCan went missing? You would have to show that he didn't delete email on other days to show the behavior as aberrant. Even then it's very little to go on.
I did see the "raw and uncut" email and the ages. It's definitely an abnormal statement, but how do you investigate that. The only people with the kind of access to catch something like this would be the NSA. I mean hackers could set up a trap of some sort but it would have to be an elaborate plan.
In the end what you have is a bunch of circumstantial evidence. There are no bodies. There is nothing that lets you prove to anyone anything but what you pointed out: these people say and look at some creepy shit. The real problem comes when people who want to believe get a hold of this. They are far more easily led down rabbit holes. They could easily be led to something that gets them in trouble or that they jump the gun on and harass innocent people.
5 libretumente 2016-12-02
Circumstantial evidence is how cases are built. People are building a case because they don't trust the FBI to do so. No smoking gun yet, but a pretty undeniable narrative has been spreading based on a lot of coincidental, circumstantial evidence and more people are demanding answers. We gone git what we came fo.
2 4esop 2016-12-02
What about the fact that you are holding the investigation in a public forum? It's happened before plenty of times that these types of things sweep up people that aren't involved because of the horrible standard of evidence. Also, you are pretty much showing your hand to someone that you think is sophisticated enough to secretly run a global pedophile ring? I don't see the wisdom in that.
5 libretumente 2016-12-02
If a few wealthy folk get swept up in it by associating themselves with child molesters, so be it. It's like getting taken in for questioning because you were a friend or significant other of a high up crime organization like drugs, money laundering etc.. If the people that are 'innocent' give valuable input that can put bad people away, what is the harm?
I think they should have chosen their friends more carefully if they're kicking it with pedos . . .
These are valid questions people are asking, and the MSM is completely ignoring so much of what has been presented and have not questioned for dug like they should as 'respected' journos.
Do you recommend we just take this one at face value and blindly accept what the MSM and FBI tell/don't tell us? The implications of this are staggering.
Think for youself.
2 4esop 2016-12-02
Well I doubt that any respected journalist would have had time to vet anything enough to print a full story on something like this. This is something that should take a year to investigate and document in private before it goes public.
Again, the biggest point I've made is that if you guys are correct about everything in pizzagate, then the strategy of doing an investigation like this in public is just going to feed the bad guys all of the info you are uncovering and then they can mislead you easily or avoid you entirely. There is no way something as powerful as what is proposed goes down like this. Their very existence would prove more competence than is needed to avoid something as obvious as an investigation that they can watch unfold.
I can indeed think for myself.
That I choose to question something that you believe does not mean that I am not thinking. If you actually believe I cannot think for myself and am mind controlled somehow, that's just a way of propping up your own ideas in your mind and shoving out unwelcome thoughts, which is exactly what you are implying I'm doing. So basically I'd just advise leaving off statements like this as it's circular and hostile.
4 libretumente 2016-12-02
You are throwing shade on ordinary people investigating this because the MSM won't. Do you think condemning this citizens' investigation will help lock child abusers up? I understand where you are coming from, but I think it is important to get that this is a real possibility in as many people's heads as possible so it isn't covered up or pushed away like it has been so easily in the past.
Again, should we just keep our fingers crossed for some MSM fairy to come down and report on the wrongdoings of the elites in our country?
We have seen hard evidence of pedophile rings' exposure being covered up all across the world previously by the MSM that turned out to be true. And this? We had better let the trusty MSM educate us and lead the way on this investigation . . . /s
2 dustlesswalnut 2016-12-02
You haven't investigated anything. You've googled some things and drawn wild conclusions based on disregarding all context of a bunch of emails.
And you've (the movement) has managed to harass business owners and private citizens who happen to follow those businesses on social media. So there's that, I guess.
2 libretumente 2016-12-02
Let's hope the juice is worth the squeeze! If a few people get harassed that follow a pizza place on social media, ohhh well. It's the Internet and people say offensive things.
3 [deleted] 2016-12-02
[deleted]
2 4esop 2016-12-02
Yes the crime is awful. The claims about this particular crime are particularly awful and extravagant. where are the victims in this case? I realize that if the situation is as many claim, and pervasive, then the police would likely not be a safe route. The issue here I have is that people are assuming guilt. People often start responding to any criticism of methodology or fact gathering with emotive appeals to the nature of the crime. That's not an argument for anything more than extreme vigilance and being careful not to dismiss something. So yeah, I don't really think you just drop any thought that this is possible. I just think that a responsible journalist would do a year long secret investigation and have overwhelming evidence before accusing someone of a crime of this magnitude. That's the other side of your statement. The crime is really really awful. So we should also be careful about accusing people of it before we have enough solid evidence.
0 pepinoVERDE 2016-12-02
some of the best succinct evidence is the instagram picture of the pedophile rugby player. i mean, that is just too close for home
0 johntole 2016-12-02
All of this exists, however, the story that home detectives using their own confirmation bias will over time do more damage to Alt News. Less freedom is on the way and The Devil will never be unmasked at the end of this Scooby Doo Episode.
Also YT algorithms are boosting certain videos not really the thing that would happen unless its spreading disinfo.
0 rockytimber 2016-12-02
This is sounding like a witch hunt. There is a reason there is such a thing as due process, and a reason r/conspiracy used to be freaked out when the government kept eroding it.
Julian got framed for "rape", and no matter how possibly guilty Podesta and the others may seem to be, until you can show that a single law has been broken, you are just as likely to have been played as to have found a real crime. Maybe this would be a good time to learn about what is entailed in proper investigations, because the victims out there deserve it, but also innocent people like these who were wrongly put through hell: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kern_County_child_abuse_cases
This pizzagate thing rings of hysteria at least in some cases, judging by the way people are describing extreme reactions. No one seem to have reacted to learning of proven atrocities like this, that involved tens of thousands of victims. Who here lost one nights sleep over Abu Ghraib, honestly?
Its almost as if all of the false flags in Boston etc. have primed people for an imagined reality that is of a different standard than real life. The media has successfully lobotomized us against reason. Let's not let this subreddit became a case study in hysteric delusion.
5 KeepItAmerican 2016-12-02
Oh really? Is that the new thing to say when people get exposed?
Really? Is that just your opinion of you speaking for the world?
1 rockytimber 2016-12-02
As what? If they didn't break the law, what do you have? Do you want new laws so that what they did, the pictures they own for example, become criminal? Because right now, what you got, everything they did was legal.
You are taking conjecture too far. Conjecture is one of those things in investigations that stays conjecture until you get more. Get more, or start admitting all you got is conjecture, in which case, you are on a witch hunt and acting inappropriately.
https://books.google.com/books?id=o6_3WTwZ5y8C&pg=PA202&lpg=PA202&dq=Conjecture+guesswork+investigations&source=bl&ots=AYhkYCPypI&sig=AJsSiFrKKhtZMlhoWtc8GZXgdsk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjU56ak2dbQAhVM6CYKHQ4aAtYQ6AEIKDAD#v=onepage&q=Conjecture%20guesswork%20investigations&f=false
3 KeepItAmerican 2016-12-02
Witch hunt. That's exactly who they are. Witches. So the truth speaks as truth. If you can't handle that truth, that is your problem. The world understands what is real based on the history of the Clintons. There is no more hiding.
So sorry.
3 rockytimber 2016-12-02
There is no law against doing what they have been shown to be doing so far. You have no proof they have broken the law.
These days, witch hunt means: "a campaign directed against a person or group holding unorthodox or unpopular views". You are being set up, and you will be the next target of your own tactics, because you were sloppy and got used.
3 walkalloveryou 2016-12-02
Too much critical thinking for the #pizzagate ERROR ABORT RETRY FAIL....
1 KeepItAmerican 2016-12-02
It's you don't comprehend the entire Clinton History or have been blinded by the Clinton lies.
Others have seen it and choose an adult like Trump to run America.
2 rockytimber 2016-12-02
I can't wait for Hillary to go to jail. I have never supported her. I have never believed in any of the Clinton lies, but I also realize that Trump was just the loudest angry voice in the room.
Why put your faith in Trump? He has obviously sold out. Goldman Sachs for cabinet level appointments!!!! Fuck Trump. He's an entertainer and a con man.
Weak minded people don't bother to study what a real criminal investigation entails. Pizzagate does not have any criminal evidence, if it did, there would be credible people piling on. As it is, just a bunch of tin foil hats, getting taken in once again.
1 squashedbananas 2016-12-02
What are you even talking about
0 jimibulgin 2016-12-02
Of you really want to cater to skeptics, dont make long posts.
RE: "It's the economy stupid."
0 ForgotMyFathersFace 2016-12-02
I wish you would have provided links to all the images your thread .
0 fatboyroy 2016-12-02
So presumably, WikiLeaks gets every dem memebers email and there's zero evidence of this really besides a few oddities, admittedly weird oddities but there's nothing else. When in reality the fbi uses Internet to catch most pedo ribgs...
Where are these molested kids at now... Catholic Church has been dealing with this shit forever now but we have no actual people coming forward to say they were touched or blackmailing them to get money.
If they were engaged in cp, find a tape or a dnad dildo or something.. anything.
0 freakuniit 2016-12-02
My only problem with the meta of #pizzagate is that there is still the possibility that it is social engineering by Russians or other foreign actors. That is, they could have poisoned the pool of Podesta emails with the references to pizza, hot dogs, etc.
Those logos of the restaurants though... There is no getting around that, but if the basis of suspicion of them (the symbol key) is also engineered or even possibly engineered, then I throw up my hands at this point in time.
0 squashedbananas 2016-12-02
Why would a big pedo ring conspiracy have a public Instagram account?
If this is some big government cover-up, why not suppress the sketch that "exactly matches" the Podesta brothers?
I mean, if I was a rich and famous and powerful person and I was powerful enough to run a child pedo ring in the basement of a pizzeria and have the media more or less know about it, or at least know that they're covering something up, I wouldn't, like, allow someone to sketch me as a suspect. I would have that person killed or replace the sketch with a sketch of a minority.
I see links to emails where the links say "If they're not speaking code then these emails make NO SENSE!" Well, yeah. If you read my emails, you would probably find some that make no sense. I'm not speaking code. I'm just not writing to you.
Someone actually went into that pizza place and fired a gun. A gun. While families were dining there, presumably with children. Does that bother you, like, at all?
And why should journalists have to work to prove that this isn't true? The burden of proof is not on them.
This is nothing more than a witch hunt, and the media did the right thing by ignoring the witch hunt for as long as they could. If they had focused on it, it would have been worse, not better. There's another conspiracy post right now where the top comment is sarcastically saying that we know pizzagate isn't real because NYT and other newspapers say it isn't. So obviously you conspiracy theorists don't really give a shit what the media says; in fact, the more mainstream, the less likely you are to trust it.
That's as much as I can write. Every time I think about this I become furious.
-1 rehms 2016-12-02
Oh, you conspiracy theorists LOVE connecting dots that are there.
They're just does, after all...
1 BigPharmaSucks 2016-12-02
Your just does
-1 Deadpool_666 2016-12-02
Stop believing in silliness, or do something about it. Educate yourself.
-1 Deadpool_666 2016-12-02
This is really dumb, as a Satanist, I'm disgusted with this nonsense, you are making everyone dumber, you are an idiot.
1 zeropoint357 2016-12-02
Oh, go dress up in your cape and try to get goth chicks to sleep with you.
7 sh3rog 2016-12-02
*you're
Wikileaks has not once been shown to have published anything false.
Stop trying to spread disinfo please
1 Cannot_go_back_now 2016-12-02
Bye bye, sorry your fee fees got hurt, but please do enjoy burying your head in the sand and thinking about how everyone is being manipulated but you and people with your biases, because yer so smart and we're so dumb and easily brainwashed, I'm sure that'll work out for you in the long run.
-2 wtfhaxpwn 2016-12-02
I see more deflections from you than from cannot**. He or she made good points and you are accusing and derogatory. Might be good to look at it again.
7 mrsnakers 2016-12-02
I like the part where your account became active as a commentor for the first time the day of the election and you've solely been talking about programming, owls, arguing that wikileaks is compromised, and that pizzagate isn't real.
You're cute.
Where's your heart?
1 rigorouspanda 2016-12-02
why source something and then completely dismiss said source. mind boggling.
6 sh3rog 2016-12-02
If they aren't suspicious, then showing them would help debunk this theory
This is a perfect opportunity for Mr. Alefantis to stop all this. Explain what #hotard is
Or #murder #killroom
Jesus its not hard, its like he doesn't wan't to address the pictures in any specific manner.
If they really wanted to debunk it they would choose 2 or 3 of the most suspicious ones and include them along with some kind of explanation from mr alefantis, showing that this is all a big misunderstanding. Instead they are making ad hominems against the people raising the issues and saying their evidence doesn't even merit a response.
4 The_ChaplainOC 2016-12-02
The media would be quick to show non-suspicious photos. But they can't. Because sexualized pics of toddlers will always be suspicious.
5 The_ChaplainOC 2016-12-02
Jimmy is in the Podesta emails sucking up to John.
1 spezzingout 2016-12-02
Absolutely. That's why I think the investigation is of value and needs to continue. I just think it needs to be conducted more privately where outside influences cannot interfere (injecting theories with no credibility and then upvoting them, while downvoting logic). I also think it needs to be scrapped and it needs to be considered from a fresh, new perspective. That goes far beyond something I have time for, I'm afraid, or I'd gladly attempt to take a lead at it.
1 The_ChaplainOC 2016-12-02
"Baby....yum."
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2 corn_of_action 2016-12-02
"Non-discerning semi-human"
2 returnofN 2016-12-02
Present ONE piece of evidence that isnt "the owner swears he isnt" that this is untrue.
inb4 you tell me to present mine. My evidence is all over the internet and is easily found. NO ONE however has presented anything resembling a refutation of this.
2 nottheoretical 2016-12-02
Marches with legally carried guns have been done before...i think it's not a bad idea. Maybe we need a Million civilian march on DC.
1 nottheoretical 2016-12-02
I agree the government is the problem but they want nothing more than a reason to point to us and call us criminals. It would be unreasonably rash to go marching around with illegal weapons and make ourselves look like a threat in some way. We need to remain peaceful and law abiding as possible.