Piggybacking because OP added a new source to pretend supports his claims:
You're not looking at a list of people. You're looking at a range of ID numbers which were issued. The very same page you're linking me to right now acknowledges that these numbers were reused, meaning when someone died or was transferred away, they just gave the old number to someone else. That right there is enough to fully invalidate your argument, not even to mention the fact that a number of people may have been executed on arrival without even receiving a number.
The only thing this link establishes is that there were never more than 400,000 prisoners fully 'booked' into Auschwitz at any one time.
The holyhoax official story is crumbling. The jews can't stop the tide of the truth. Not even with by rigging Google's algorithm to promote the kosher story, or Amazon now starting to ban Holohoax denial books. The cat is out of the bag.
The biggest hurdle I've noticed is that people seem to be conditioned to think our world is all nice and friendly and the world leaders are all great, selfless people that just want what's best for everyone.
The reality is so far removed from that that people have a hard if not impossible time accepting it.
It's definitely frustrating to witness firsthand the kind of people whose brains just shut down rather than try to comprehend the reality of what people are capable of.
I was banned from /r/history for asking "Since when does an official story need the threat of a prison sentence to enforce the truth"? The mods there didn't like that. So, OP, I feel your frustration.
No, it doesn't. The reality is not allowed. The lie must be maintained. That is why I was banned. I wanted to question the reality and that is not permitted - ever.
You give thousands of historians decades to debate about reality. Eventually there will be some consensus opinion that most will hold about what really happened. This narrative will then be called "the narrative".
I was banned from /r/uncensorednews for no real reason. I was banned from /r/wikileaks for questioning wikileaks. I was banned from here for similar reasons.
You are not allowed to impede the Zionist agenda, which requires a justification for its aims, even if that justification is false on its face. Here in the /r/conspiracy subreddit you will find the freedom to pursue the truth and will not be required to toe the line.
Yeah, the Holocaust is a huge trigger over there. Any mention of it and people's hair bristles. Accept the narrative or get banned, end of story, no discussion. >:(
I mean it is a private subreddit, the mods can do whatever they want.
It sounded like OP already knew he was going against their known narrative. If he wanted answers, why not post it to more holohoax sub or another forum?
Otherwise it would be as inflammatory as asking on a holohoax forum the reverse of that question, expecting not to get banned, or hostile responses. Know your audience if you want answers.
Sounds like OP was just trying to "open up peoples eyes", which never happens to an audience already pitted against you.
Would caution against getting information from obviously biased sourced. As you would guess, you can't trust them to give an objective telling of the events. A website called "Exposing-the-holocaust-hoax" probably isn't that interested in objectivity.
Yes, everyone is biased, but some organizations make an attempt to be less biased. The New York Times takes steps to present things with less of a spin rf an agenda. Sure the bias comes through, but there is LESS bias because they TRY to have less bias. The world is not simply full of everyone only pushing an agenda. Some organization and people try to challenge their pre conceptions with evidence, and in their communication with the world, elevate that evidence over their narrative. But exposing-the-holocaust-hoax is not one of them. A website like exposing-the-holocaust-hoax does not make attempts to challenge what it already thinks is true and therefore cannot be trusted to be anything BUT biased.
So literally everyone associated with the "Establishment", aka the general mainstream, is trying to deceive you.
As you're thinking those ideas, do they ever strike you as, perhaps, the propaganda of a cult in order to get you to not listen to ideas other than theirs?
I don't know what you're FYIing. All the fringe things you believe because you've been taught to demonize the "establishment"? Dude, I'm telling you. You're being played. Nobody likes the establishment. Of course! But that doesn't make everything the "anti-establishment" says true. I was part of a small religious group, not as small as yours, but still fairly insular. This whole "the establishment is satanic" is a tactic propagated by them so that you don't listen to ideas other than theirs. I'm sure you think of your anti-establishment attitude as free thinking and edgy, but once you pop your head above the mire of hate and superstition, you'll see that the real world based on real evidence, critical thinking and challenging your most deeply held beliefs to see if they're really true, is the place where you're free to not just repeat someone else's wrong ideas. Because that is what you're doing. Your ideas are in no way new, they've been said for centuries, and they've been wrong the whole time. And the "proof" that you use to prop them up is not the kind of "proof" that will ever let you know what the base truth of the world is.
Ah my bad. I actually thought that it was him responding as he's been the only one engaged. I thought he was just showing me all the shit he believes lol.
I know I'm sort of wasting my breath, but there's a quote I like that I can't remember specifically and can't be bothered to look up but it is something like "Nobody ever leaves an argument holding EXACTLY the same position they held at the beginning." I was once a super religious semi-nutjob and I'd have arguments with people and even though I know they wouldn't think they budged me and I wouldn't admit that I was budged at the time, reason can still worm its way in there. I mean eventually enough got in that I rejected all that madness entirely. Plus, I'm unemployed and high at home and I like arguing and I like giving a counter to the crazy hatred in the world if only for someone else to read, so fuck it.
Go read about the holocoster, photoshopped images, or any "eyewitness" testimony. Or, ask the soviets why all the "death" camps were only found by them. Not to mention, as a physicist, they did not have operational gas chambers at any site. Good to see you searching for the truth, you better hurry before the rest of the goy find out, so you can at least try to convince them not to kill you all.
It's strange that there is even an argument over numbers, the nazi's were notorious for extremely diligent and detailed record keeping... No official records on these camps though? I have no idea, just asking
I don't know what OP is specifically referring to, but at Auschwitz they initially claimed that "4 million" died there. This was alleged and "proven" at the Nuremberg trials (which were a kangaroo court).
Then around 1990, the official Auschwitz museum revised down the claim of dead at Auschwitz to "1.5 million". I think today it's at only "1.1 million". That is still a gross exaggeration. Red Cross records only show that around 68,000 died at Auschwitz.
Omg the anti-Semitism is so despicable! Millions of people diiiiied! I don't use it often, but it's the definition of "Reeeeeeee." Questioning history should be encouraged, but it's not. Especially when it comes to this subject.
I was banned from r/funny once for stating that a particular popular comic strip's latest submission at the time didn't make sense, and then discussing it. Go figure. I don't think you're a real Redditor if you haven't been banned at least once, or have had multiple accounts.
BLM seems to me about making people more racist. The establishment and particular individuals are doing unaceptable? So therefore I am going to cause tangible harm and financial burdon on my neighbors instead of anyone involved in the wrongdoing? Wut?
BLM needs to at LEAST be roughly thousands of times more clear than they are in explaining to the public WHY they are blocking freeways and looting. People just see them as a bunch of dumbasses standing in the freeway that we should just run the fuck over but that isnt allowed because the police oming after people for vehicular manslaughter are the only thing keeping them alive.
OP congratulations on "tearing the veil of tribalism", not sure what path lead you there but unless it's your family, it's quite an accomplishment! Good luck!
The biggest problem with reddit is that mods just ban anybody who says things they don't like, and there is no recourse. So instead of discussion we end up with a bunch of echo chambers each pushing a narrative.
This is exactly how I feel. /r/conspiracy is no exception. This is one of the dangers of social media imo. It's hard to get new ideas traction and even harder to go against an accepted idea within this community
Huh? I grew up learning that 6 million people were killed in the holocaust (not sure if just the holocaust or all of WW2) and 3 million Jews were killed specifically.
Please don't go around saying "they" are changing the count from 6 to 1M because "they" aren't. It's a weak argument and doesn't make you look very credible. Now if Wikipedia decided to change their number from 6 to 1M (I checked as soon as I read your post) and it still says 6M.
I can say 2+2 = 5 but that doesn't mean I'm changing the constants of the universe. That'd be pretty cool though...
Jewish and Polish scholars of the Holocaust now agree that the Auschwitz death toll was less than half the four million cited here for four decades. The actual number was probably between 1.1 million and 1.5 million-and at least 90 percent of the victims were Jews.
I can't believe how stupid some people are. You literally stopped reading at the end of that paragraph. It's a two page article. It takes about two minutes to read for a person of average intelligence. Why is that so hard for you?
The very next paragraph explains that the old Soviet estimates put the number of non-jews killed at 2.5 million when it's now believed to be closer to .5 million. The estimates of the number of Jews killed remain unchanged at between 1 and 1.5 million.
You sure are an angry fuck. My first comment was about citing Wikipedia as truth. Wikipedia says 6 million and you are telling me the article says 1-1.5 million.
fine, "there are even mainstream sources reporting the death count was lowered to as low as 1.1 million. Wikipedia may say otherwise but I could edit the page and use this as a source too."
Are you learning disabled and literally incapable of comprehending the words in the article or are you posting that article to be misleading in the hopes that people won't read past the headline?
The article says that between 1 and 1.5 million Jews were killed at Auschwitz, not in the entire holocaust. Furthermore, the article specifically mentions that there is no change in the number of Jews killed at Auschwitz. The article states with incredible clarity that only a dunce or a snake could 'miss' that the number of non-Jewish Poles killed there was the only one revised.
Auschwitz website gives some information about prisoner numbers:
It provides the following breakdown:
The number series
1 – 202499
main series - men
1 – 12000
"R" Soviet POWs
1 – 9 000
"EH" – men
1 – 2 000
"EH" - women
1 – 90 000
main series - women
1 – 10 094
"Z" – Sinti and Roma men
1 – 10 888
"Z" - Sinti and Roma women
1 – 20 000
"A" – Jewish men
1 – 15 000
"B" - Jewish men
1 – 30 000
"A" - Jewish women
1 – 3 000
"PH" – police prisoners
404 481
in total
http://auschwitz.org/en/museum/auschwitz-prisoners/prisoner-numbers
Sorry, other comment was poorly copied and pasted. I love when people are as rude as you to only be wrong and look like they are all of the things they said someone else was.
Simply add up all of the people listed on the official Auschwitz website and the total goes to 404,481 in total. This is the largest camp and the number stated by google is a 1.3m prisoner population. You will find this across all camps, the real numbers are lower than what is understood and accepted. That is all I'm trying to get across
Jewish and Polish scholars of the Holocaust now agree that the Auschwitz death toll was less than half the four million cited here for four decades. The actual number was probably between 1.1 million and 1.5 million
Not even a little bit. It's a two page article. Would it kill you to read past the first four paragraphs? Literally the next paragraph in the article explains that they revised the number of non-jewish poles who died there after the soviets turned out to be lying to make it seem like it was a general slaughter, instead of a specifically targeted extermination of jews.
okay now im confused. what point are you contending here?
you seem to be agreeing with OP
or at least obfuscating the argument
Every one of them feels that he is knowledgeable and that he is an authority on history, Lerman said. Unfortunately, that is not the case. Last week here at the camp, one elderly Polish woman said she was sure that four million people died at Auschwitz. She said she first visited the camp in 1948 and that was what she was told then, when things were fresh. Ken Hanau, a 26-year-old American, refused to believe that fewer than four million people had died here. Hanau, a student at Harvard Business School, said he had done a paper on the subject as an undergraduate and had read in several history books that four million was the right figure.
this is what OP was addressing, the fact that people will not believe that less than 4 million people died in the camp, not the number of jews killed.
That was never in any of OP's arguments that I read, though his justifications shifted as fast as his assertions were rebutted. His original argument was that the Auschwitz number couldn't be revised without subtracting the same amount from the 6 million. We can't even go back to argue about it anymore because he deleted everything out of embarrassment when he was repeatedly called out for his poor reading comprehension.
As to your point, of course people still believe what they heard from the communist regime after the war. New evidence always has an uphill battle against the prevailing common knowledge.
It was changed on the plaque outside of Auschwitz, first it was 6 million, then it was changed to four million in this picture and it is now at 1.5 million.
..
The number was lowered. All I want to do is make a few more people aware of this.
these are the two comments in the thread that are clear about his motivations
OK you got me. I can't resist how extraordinarily stupid one would have to be to only have the capability of superficially skimming over all of three pages worth of text without fully comprehending any of it. I'll address this one, too.
You're not looking at a list of people. You're looking at a range of ID numbers which were issued. The very same page you're linking me to right now acknowledges that these numbers were reused, meaning when someone died or was transferred away, they just gave the old number to someone else. That right there is enough to fully invalidate your argument, not even to mention the fact that a number of people may have been executed on arrival without even receiving a number.
The only thing this link establishes is that there were never more than 400,000 prisoners fully 'booked' into Auschwitz at any one time.
Well first off the article answers your question pretty well so I don't know why you would bother asking.
And that article DOES NOT say that only 1 million Jews died in the holocaust as opposed to 6. It says that the original estimate of 4 million people dying AT AUSCHWITZ (and only at that specific camp) was incorrect because the Communist government of Poland purposefully overestimated the number of POLES killed not the number of jews.
The communists tried to de-Judaize Auschwitz to emphasize that other nationalities, particularly Poles, died at the hands of the Nazis, said Lerman, who is also a member of the International Council of the State Museum of Auschwitz.
So there's your answer, the number of jews killed didn't change (significantly), the number of non-jews killed AT AUSCHWITZ changed so that the communist government of Poland could demonize fascism and prop up communism as the best form of government.
Since at least as far back as 1900, everywhere you look it says 6 million. The myth of 6 million goes back to the roots of Zionism itself; the number was instrumental in sculpting a narrative that would justify and promote the takeover of The Middle East by Zionist Jews, and the Palestinian genocide which long ago was seen as necessary by the Zionist Jews to achieve their aim.
Yeah they lowered Auschwitz numbers from 4 million to 1.5 million BUT miraculously they kept the official 6 million number.
That alone is 10000% proof that the numbers are all a lie. You can't be wrong about 2.5 million people dying at one camp. That literally means the numbers have to be fake.
There is holocaust laws for a reason. The laws came out around the same time that Auschwitz was lowered by 2.5 million. Do you expect any credible historian to really speak about and say the number should be lower? They could literally go to jail.
Everything I said was a fact. If you get offended by it then you get offended by truth.
The Auschwitz victim number was changed because historians worked out a more accurate version of what actually happened based on new information and analysis. I'm just saying, if it's all concocted and fake they could have left the number as is.
(3) Whosoever publicly or in a meeting approves of, denies or downplays an act committed under the rule of National Socialism of the kind indicated in section 6 (1) of the Code of International Criminal Law, in a manner capable of disturbing the public peace shall be liable to imprisonment not exceeding five years or a fine.
Doesn't sound like this law prohibits real historical research with intent of reaching the truth.
denies or downplays an act committed under the rule of National Socialism of the kind indicated
so like challenging the numbers
capable of disturbing the public peace
Not overly vague and could be used to fuck over someone challenging the narrative at all. Oh only 5 years? So more harsh than if you are a migrant who rapes a german native. Well you sure sold me. How could have i ever had my original opinion?
in a manner capable of disturbing the public peace
I'm sure it was by mistake. I'll explain what this means. It means that if you are a boring historian in academia who found out that there was an error in history perception, and you write an article about it, citing sources, and convince your peers, that's fine. However if you do the Hitler salute, talk about your desire to make Germany great again and say that the holocaust never happened and that all historians are blackmailed by the international Jewry, you will be jailed.
so if you come along with scientific evidence and Neo_nazis come out and say "wow this guy is right, see holocaust is fake" Now they do a march about it. Now people blame you for it. Now you a disturbing public peace. Now your ideas are dangerous, Now you go to jail. Seems simple.
This is a very interesting hypothetical scenario - what would happen in the case that the holocaust deniers were actually correct. In reality, however, no historian is buying what they have to offer. Luckily, the only people buying holocaust denial are racists and Nazis, who disturb the public peace very much, so there's no actual contention here.
what would happen in the case that the holocaust deniers were actually correct
they would then have nazis agree with them and then blame them for hate speech and they would go to jail. Things would then stay the same. I feel like we're going in a circle now. See how these laws could be bad? The Truth doesn't hide from the light. Whole thing is shady.
The official number is 6 million I'm not sure what you're talking about.
Did you not see the official statement they make every year for the Holocaust rememberance day. 6 million is in that statement. Everyone just says 6 million in everyday conversation.
Mathematically it's really hard, kind of like "khufu built the pyramids in 20 years" hard.
Just take your average office job today. It's so god damn inefficient, then suppose they laid a 2 ton block perfectly cut and alligned with the god damn stars every 8 minutes for 20 years straight.
Hahahhaha. Same thing with holocaust. Take 6 million and even over the entire life of the war it would be a massive number per day of humans.
Sorry, doesn't pass the "humans are too lazy" test. I can just picture the camels back 4000 years ago being like wtf why am I doing this.
So what you're basically saying is, if before leaving to the front, each German soldier who died shot one Jew, that would be about enough to perform this monumental task, that can be compared in how monumental it is to building the Pyramids 4000 years ago.
That article later states on page 2 that the lowered Auschwitz count simply means more Jewish people were killed elsewhere and the total death toll was actually up to 7 million, but doesn't seem to cite any sources.
Anyone know what they're referencing?
If the official count of Auschwitz dropped from 4 million to 1.5 million, does that mean there a 2.5 million unaccounted for people that died elsewhere? Or does that merely mean the count was fabricated to 4 million for political reasons and not as many people died in the holocaust in total as we originally were told?
P.S. Not holocaust denying or anything, just curious as I've seen a wide range of numbers throughout my lifetime ranging from a couple million up to 9 million, with 6 million being the officially repeated number in most cases.
If the official count of Auschwitz dropped from 4 million to 1.5 million, does that mean there a 2.5 million unaccounted for people that died elsewhere? Or does that merely mean the count was fabricated to 4 million for political reasons and not as many people died in the holocaust in total as we originally were told?
That's a legitimate question. The answer would be in academic works. Wikipedia:
Hilberg's estimate of 5.1 million, in the third edition of The Destruction of the European Jews, includes (respectively) over 800,000 Jews who died from "ghettoization and general privation"; 1,400,000 killed in open-air shootings; and up to 2,900,000 who perished in the camps. Hilberg estimates the death toll of Jews in Poland as up to 3,000,000.[341] His numbers are generally considered to be very conservative, as they typically include only those deaths for which records are available, avoiding statistical adjustments.[342]
You can look up this study, or others. Whatever you find, it will be very boring and contain a lot of numbers, which is the sign of good information.
So by his calculations he was already estimating lower death camp numbers overall. I'm guessing the truth is likely somewhere in the middle. Some of the Auschwitz numbers may have been merely fabricated, but some of them likely died elsewhere and were attributed Auschwitz incorrectly.
There was of course other death camps, as well as the ghettos, starvation, and mass shootings. Many of those people could have been killed before getting to Auschwitz, and were simply calculated in the original figures inflating the number.
As horrible as the holocaust was, I was never taught that the USSR/Russia actually took the brunt of the civilian causalities during WW2, as many as 16 million, and lost another 10 million soldiers. Didn't discover the truth until I was an adult, as my history books liked to leave that fact out. Supposedly there were even cases of entire towns being cut off from food and water in the USSR essentially starving entire cities during the winter. The Nazi's purposely would cut off supply lines and steal the supplies for themselves to weaken their enemies so they could walk right in and take over entire cities without resistance because they had starved the population out. The Eastern front was absolutely brutal compared to the Western front, but again good luck learning about that in a Western country.
One of the craziest things from WW2 to me was actually after the war, during Operation Paperclip when the US let over a thousand Nazi scientists and doctors some of which ran these death camps come to the US and become US citizens and conduct further research in the US. Said research resulted in everything from the MK Ultra experiments, to potentially releasing Lyme disease from Plum island decades later.
Another comment mentions that the 4 million figure for Auschwitz was lowered due to the communist Polish government having lied about the number of Poles who died there. I haven't checked this but it sounds familiar.
There are a number of estimates out there. Depending on the source it's something like 5.7-6.3 million Jewish dead, 4.7 million have their names and biographies recorded (this was reported in the news a day or two ago).
These estimates look at population numbers and the like so it's not an exact science, and also why the 6 million figure is normally used. I should probably know about non-Jewish dead, but I don’t. Though to be fair to myself I don't know the figures for other genocides and until I saw that 4.7 million piece I thought the Jewish dead was 3 million - just my ignorance/memory mind.
Non-Jewish dead is controversial in reference to the camps from my research. The article mentioned by u/Todos1881 was 90% Jewish deaths at Auschwitz with the revised numbers, but I've seen other sources state as high as 95%.
Meanwhile, I've seen holocaust deniers suggest the numbers of non-Jewish were much greater, and the total number of Jews of killed was much lower. As the camps were also used on Gypsies, POWs, homosexuals, mentally ill, and others.
One of the arguments I've come across as well is that the death camps were isolated by the end of the war and were mostly run by skeleton crews with little contact from the outside world. So many people died from starvation, firing squads, and other means. Many of these deaths are counted by historians as still being apart of the holocaust, but some argue they should be counted as POW / Civilian deaths as a result of the war, and not necessarily deaths that were purposely or intentionally contributed to genocide of the Jewish population. Then again, those people wouldn't have died had they never been put in camps and ghettos in the first place, hence the controversy and the disparity in numbers.
From my analysis, theres more than enough evidence that the holocaust happened, we just don't know the exact number of people killed and although the majority were Jewish many other populations were targeted as well.
I was the one posted about Auschwitz changing their numbers. Jews absolutely died. I hardly see anyone try to say less than a few hundred thousand died.
I've concluded based on all available evidence that nowhere near 6 million died. But that's just my opinion.
Yeah I'm not sure on the 6 million number either, but do believe it was likely in the millions when considering both death camps, and conditions of war.
6 million is Jewish propaganda, as is the Holocaust as a whole. It comes form a Talmudic prophecy that 6 million Jews must vanish before the creation of Israel, which of course happened right after WWII. They had been using that number in propaganda pieces since the late 1800s. The alleged mass graves have been debunked by independent researchers as having no bodies. The crematoriums were used to burn the bodies of those who died from disease to help prevent its spread. Zyklon B was used only used to delouse clothing. People were generally taken care of and most deaths were caused by starvation and disease, especially after Allied bombings cut off supplies. Testimony at Nuremberg was achieved through extreme torture including testicle crushing, and some of the testimony received has been debunked by even mainstream Holocaust historians. There is a reason people get thrown in jail for "denial". These Jews are master manipulators, liars, and propagators. The Talmud teaches them that the are the supreme race and at the gentiles are only animals. They still demand reparations for their alleged Holocaust to this day. Why don't we hear about the millions of people that the Bolsheviks killed? Hmm. They like to point the finger at others and demand sympathy for themselves. They create division and fund both sides of it to keep us fighting ourselves. They promote degeneracy through the mainstream media and Hollywood that they own almost all of. They use the US military to do their dirty work in the Middle East. They rape babies in their religious rituals and normalize it. None of this stuff really sank in for me until I saw footage of rabbis sucking the bloody dicks of babies who'd just had their genitals cut. I've seen some fucked up shit on the internet and nothing has hit me as hard as that, I couldn't take it and I had to shut it down for a bit. You can just type in "rabbi circumcision" on google and find pictures. Only they could get away with this shit. "Oh its just a religious ceremony. Nothing to see here goyim!" Hitler rose up against them and their debt-based money scam that they have used to enslave people and that is still used today. He lost, and became the most demonized person in history.
The Auschwitz estimate drop doesn't affect the estimate of the number of Jews killed. The new understanding is that Soviets had previously padded the number of non-Jewish Poles who were killed by about 2 million.
This would explain the disparity I've seen in the number of non-Jewish killed. I've seen some estimates as high as 95% Jewish, meanwhile I've seen others argue that far more people were killed who were non-Jewish.
Yup. That explains a big part of that disparity, along with the inconsistencies in counting political killings, deaths caused by neglect of POWs, and summary executions carried out with little to no documentation.
Don't the Jewish get compensation for "Holocaust survivors" (something along those lines and it's vague)? And that means for families in general. As far as I'm concerned, Jewish people have exploited the event as much as they can. Even if they had to exaggerate numbers, money is more important to them then honouring those they lost.
Got any ideas for a better system, or suggestions to make this one suck worse? The current system is definitely flawed, but I'm not sure how it could be fixed.
At the very least we need a process for appealing a ban. Like a 'legal' system, but of course very simplified. Then if a mod looses too many cases he will loose his position. However it should also come at a cost to the appealer because otherwise there will be too many frivolous cases.
But how would that legal system be structured? I see two possibilities for that: either a single "official" system established by reddit itself and run by the admins, or independent tribunals that would be specific to every subreddit.
Official system: How would that be fair, or even work at all? There are thousands of subs, and each are run independently with their own philosophies, rules, and problems. It's extremely unlikely that an outside authority would have the knowledge, context, or time necessary to understand the nuances and make an appropriate decision. Imagine how people in this sub or some place like t_D would feel about pleading their case to some reddit authority...
Tribunal system: How would the tribunal be selected? Because in corrupt subs (i.e. the ones that are a problem in the first place), the moderators would just stack the panel with their friends or alternate accounts. This would also make hostile takeovers of subreddits even easier, since corrupt mods could abuse the system to oust other moderators and gain control.
Also, some other problems I foresee with a system like that:
What happens to subreddits which only have a single moderator? Who decides their fate, and what happens if they get ousted?
While people could abuse the system by making new accounts, moderators could do the same. If it's a "3 strikes" type system, they could just transfer their moderator status to a new account once they had lost a few cases, but before they lost their position.
What would the "cost to the appealer" be? Since they are already banned from the sub where they are contesting, it would have to be a site-wide consequence(s), otherwise it would be meaningless. But considering all the potential flaws I listed above, this would discourage people from using the system, even when they might have a legitimate case.
What would stop corrupt moderators from circumventing this entire system using tools that are already available? For example, automoderator can be programmed to immediately remove all posts from a specific user without actually banning them, thus giving them no recourse under your system.
Who are they? On which documents was it "changed"? The official number is still 5.6 - 6.3 million according to Wikipedia.
Sorry, but Holocaust denial is utter bullshit, basically on the same level as the flat earth "theory". There are so many current, much more important conspiracies going on, but your mind is clouded with a bullshit theory that has no effect for our world now and is clearly designed to distract from things like the MIC to the schemings of Goldman Sachs and the whole international financial industry.
They are the winners of WW2. It was changed on the plaque outside of Auschwitz, first it was 6 million, then it was changed to four million in this picture and it is now at 1.5 million.
Don't tell me my mind is clouded when you haven't even done your research lol. I understand the evils of our financial industry and it ties in to WW2 in the holocaust which was a for-profit war.
Holocaust denial doesn't deserve the time it takes to refute your bullshit. There are plenty of posts explaining the holocaust and how the figures are calculated, read one of them instead.
I did some quick wikipedia-ing & I don't see a single thing that says 1 million jews died in the holocaust as opposed to 6 mill. Wikipedia has the amount of jews killed at just under 6 million. The only figure I found in the 1 million range was the amount of people who died specifically at Auschwitz. So maybe OP was mistaken & was just looking at Auschwitz numbers. Or he's been binging on some fringe websites/videos. I don't know. But he should at least back up what he's saying with some links. This is the first I'm hearing of "them" lowering the number.
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Ah you're right, that was my mistake and I'll correct my original post. Don't be so dismissive of me and say I'm on fringe websites / videos because you aren't aware of an idea. This was posted here earlier and is a good link, do your own research, they didn't cover this lie well: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1992-05-07/news/9202100662_1_death-wall-auschwitz-memorials
I'm not dismissing you at all. I'm saying "maybe" & "I don't know". Because I really don't and I'm speaking from experience. I've been down looney rabbit holes before & got so absorbed that it seemed like the only reality possible. But I like to think I recovered nicely.
Whenever someone used "they" the implication is that it's coming from the mainstream consensus. And this is a very big change you're suggesting without any initial backup. So I went directly to wikipedia. If it's changed there or even has a section about dispute there may be an issue but it seems like you're just mildly mistaken, which happens to us all.
Saying that I spend too much time on fringe sites isn't dismissive? Implying that I'm stuck down a "looney rabbit hole." Ok. Yea you're talking me up?
The number was lowered. All I want to do is make a few more people aware of this. Wikipedia is a good source but why don't you go check out what happened on 9/11 according to wikipedia? Do real research. My evidence is there but you seem like the kind of person I'd rather not spend excess time on. Good luck to you
Oh please. It's a new account that suddenly decides to ask about holocaust numbers in r/history, a sub likely/known to stamp on holocaust denial. They make a point of saying "as a Jew" both here and there, mention denial in their post there, etc. Plain as a day.
The original estimate for Auschwitz was 4 million until it was discovered the communist government of Poland lied about the number of Polish people that died and it was lowered to the actual number, 1 million (note the number of jews killed never changed very significantly). Some how the OP got this twisted in his head or is just flat out misrepresenting the truth.
What are the actual numbers of Jews who died in the holocaust if its not 6 million, and sources for them? I was always told it was 6 million Jews and 6 million non Jews.
That cannot be, he said that he's not a holocaust denier and that he's just a Jew who cares very much about finding the real truth rather than The NarrativeTM. And since people never lie on the Internet, it must be true.
Please don't go around saying "they" are changing the count from 6 to 1M because "they" aren't. It's a weak argument and doesn't make you look very credible. Now if Wikipedia decided to change their number from 6 to 1M (I checked as soon as I read your post) and it still says 6M.
I can say 2+2 = 5 but that doesn't mean I'm changing the constants of the universe. That'd be pretty cool though...
Are you learning disabled and literally incapable of comprehending the words in the article or are you posting that article to be misleading in the hopes that people won't read past the headline?
The article says that between 1 and 1.5 million Jews were killed at Auschwitz, not in the entire holocaust. Furthermore, the article specifically mentions that there is no change in the number of Jews killed at Auschwitz. The article states with incredible clarity that only a dunce or a snake could 'miss' that the number of non-Jewish Poles killed there was the only one revised.
I was the one posted about Auschwitz changing their numbers. Jews absolutely died. I hardly see anyone try to say less than a few hundred thousand died.
I've concluded based on all available evidence that nowhere near 6 million died. But that's just my opinion.
143 comments
n/a The_Veracity_Sector 2017-04-25
You're absolutely right. It's called Revisionism. Some don't want real truth though, sadly.
n/a 1-800-GOFUCKYOURSELF 2017-04-25
https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/60baq6/rhistory_is_being_run_by_zionists/df4xjw1/
n/a unruly_mattress 2017-04-25
You can change the future even if you can't change history. But I appreciate the effort you put into this sentence, it sounds very pretty.
n/a DeathMetalDeath 2017-04-25
no, completely different.
n/a mrjosemeehan 2017-04-25
Piggybacking because OP added a new source to pretend supports his claims:
You're not looking at a list of people. You're looking at a range of ID numbers which were issued. The very same page you're linking me to right now acknowledges that these numbers were reused, meaning when someone died or was transferred away, they just gave the old number to someone else. That right there is enough to fully invalidate your argument, not even to mention the fact that a number of people may have been executed on arrival without even receiving a number.
The only thing this link establishes is that there were never more than 400,000 prisoners fully 'booked' into Auschwitz at any one time.
n/a Wuggarat 2017-04-25
Always be suspect of the ones you cant question.
n/a Thy_Weapon_Of_War 2017-04-25
The holyhoax official story is crumbling. The jews can't stop the tide of the truth. Not even with by rigging Google's algorithm to promote the kosher story, or Amazon now starting to ban Holohoax denial books. The cat is out of the bag.
n/a i_liveunder_a_bridge 2017-04-25
Welcome to Reddit the only place you can censor censorship
n/a mastigia 2017-04-25
Yo dog...
n/a logga 2017-04-25
Hahahaha
n/a mastigia 2017-04-25
Classics never die.
n/a Chill_Confirmed 2017-04-25
It's so great /s that this is commonplace now. Anyone in their right mind should find this type of censorship sickening. Yet next to no one cares.
n/a mmaisprettycool 2017-04-25
I care, a lot
n/a Chill_Confirmed 2017-04-25
You are "next to no one". Not trying to put you down. It's just reality.
n/a actualzed 2017-04-25
yes op will soon get labeled a "self-hating" Jew
n/a mmaisprettycool 2017-04-25
I know, it's unfortunate. My girlfriend is now on the same page as me and I hope to turn a few friends on to these ideas
n/a Chill_Confirmed 2017-04-25
The biggest hurdle I've noticed is that people seem to be conditioned to think our world is all nice and friendly and the world leaders are all great, selfless people that just want what's best for everyone.
The reality is so far removed from that that people have a hard if not impossible time accepting it.
n/a mmaisprettycool 2017-04-25
Most people are good people. Good people can't fathom the depths of an evil person
n/a Chill_Confirmed 2017-04-25
It's definitely frustrating to witness firsthand the kind of people whose brains just shut down rather than try to comprehend the reality of what people are capable of.
n/a Hearthstone4LyfeBro 2017-04-25
God help her
n/a nighthawk1961 2017-04-25
I was banned from /r/history for asking "Since when does an official story need the threat of a prison sentence to enforce the truth"? The mods there didn't like that. So, OP, I feel your frustration.
n/a justSFWthings 2017-04-25
They should change the name from /r/history to /r/thenarrative
n/a nighthawk1961 2017-04-25
They should but won't. That would expose the propaganda.
n/a WhyIHateTheInternet 2017-04-25
As if that changes anything.
n/a nighthawk1961 2017-04-25
No, it doesn't. The reality is not allowed. The lie must be maintained. That is why I was banned. I wanted to question the reality and that is not permitted - ever.
n/a unruly_mattress 2017-04-25
You give thousands of historians decades to debate about reality. Eventually there will be some consensus opinion that most will hold about what really happened. This narrative will then be called "the narrative".
n/a el_guapo_malo 2017-04-25
I was banned from /r/uncensorednews for no real reason. I was banned from /r/wikileaks for questioning wikileaks. I was banned from here for similar reasons.
n/a DownvoteDaemon 2017-04-25
Good
n/a youstupids 2017-04-25
KYS
n/a DownvoteDaemon 2017-04-25
Lol
n/a CelineHagbard 2017-04-25
Removed. Rule 4. First Warning
n/a IanPhlegming 2017-04-25
User name checks out.
n/a DownvoteDaemon 2017-04-25
Lol
n/a Dhylan 2017-04-25
You are not allowed to impede the Zionist agenda, which requires a justification for its aims, even if that justification is false on its face. Here in the /r/conspiracy subreddit you will find the freedom to pursue the truth and will not be required to toe the line.
n/a justSFWthings 2017-04-25
Yeah, the Holocaust is a huge trigger over there. Any mention of it and people's hair bristles. Accept the narrative or get banned, end of story, no discussion. >:(
n/a heavyheavylowlowz 2017-04-25
I mean it is a private subreddit, the mods can do whatever they want.
It sounded like OP already knew he was going against their known narrative. If he wanted answers, why not post it to more holohoax sub or another forum?
Otherwise it would be as inflammatory as asking on a holohoax forum the reverse of that question, expecting not to get banned, or hostile responses. Know your audience if you want answers.
Sounds like OP was just trying to "open up peoples eyes", which never happens to an audience already pitted against you.
n/a kimchikimm 2017-04-25
can someone post some sources about the victim count being changed? thx!
n/a swansong19 2017-04-25
Just do a search for "Auschwitz plaque" and you'll see the actual plaque having been changed from 4 million to 1.5
n/a Thy_Weapon_Of_War 2017-04-25
http://exposing-the-holocaust-hoax-archive.blogspot.com/2009/09/at-nuremberg-4-million-deaths-proved-at.html
n/a SaltyExplorer 2017-04-25
Would caution against getting information from obviously biased sourced. As you would guess, you can't trust them to give an objective telling of the events. A website called "Exposing-the-holocaust-hoax" probably isn't that interested in objectivity.
n/a Thy_Weapon_Of_War 2017-04-25
EVERYONE is biased.
Is the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum biased? You bet they are. Is the New York Times biased? Of course.
The jewish-controlled Establishment media and Hollywood is EXTREMELY biased.
n/a SaltyExplorer 2017-04-25
Yes, everyone is biased, but some organizations make an attempt to be less biased. The New York Times takes steps to present things with less of a spin rf an agenda. Sure the bias comes through, but there is LESS bias because they TRY to have less bias. The world is not simply full of everyone only pushing an agenda. Some organization and people try to challenge their pre conceptions with evidence, and in their communication with the world, elevate that evidence over their narrative. But exposing-the-holocaust-hoax is not one of them. A website like exposing-the-holocaust-hoax does not make attempts to challenge what it already thinks is true and therefore cannot be trusted to be anything BUT biased.
n/a Thy_Weapon_Of_War 2017-04-25
New York Times less spin? Are you fucking serious? The NYT is hard-core commie Leftist propaganda, and pushes the Establishment agenda.
The site I linked is biased in favor of the TRUTH. So, no, it's not going to present the argument of those promoting the "holocaust" lie.
When is the last time the NYT presented the argument of those denying the Holohoax lie? All they do is promote the official story.
n/a SaltyExplorer 2017-04-25
So literally everyone associated with the "Establishment", aka the general mainstream, is trying to deceive you.
As you're thinking those ideas, do they ever strike you as, perhaps, the propaganda of a cult in order to get you to not listen to ideas other than theirs?
n/a Thy_Weapon_Of_War 2017-04-25
Not everyone. But basically 99% of them.
n/a SaltyExplorer 2017-04-25
99% of the media is communist propaganda huh? Fareed Zakaria. Anderson Cooper. How about the BBC?
n/a interfused-soap 2017-04-25
FYI https://www.reddit.com/user/Thy_Weapon_Of_War/submitted/
n/a SaltyExplorer 2017-04-25
I don't know what you're FYIing. All the fringe things you believe because you've been taught to demonize the "establishment"? Dude, I'm telling you. You're being played. Nobody likes the establishment. Of course! But that doesn't make everything the "anti-establishment" says true. I was part of a small religious group, not as small as yours, but still fairly insular. This whole "the establishment is satanic" is a tactic propagated by them so that you don't listen to ideas other than theirs. I'm sure you think of your anti-establishment attitude as free thinking and edgy, but once you pop your head above the mire of hate and superstition, you'll see that the real world based on real evidence, critical thinking and challenging your most deeply held beliefs to see if they're really true, is the place where you're free to not just repeat someone else's wrong ideas. Because that is what you're doing. Your ideas are in no way new, they've been said for centuries, and they've been wrong the whole time. And the "proof" that you use to prop them up is not the kind of "proof" that will ever let you know what the base truth of the world is.
n/a interfused-soap 2017-04-25
Dude, I meant you're wasting your breath on that person.
n/a SaltyExplorer 2017-04-25
Ah my bad. I actually thought that it was him responding as he's been the only one engaged. I thought he was just showing me all the shit he believes lol.
I know I'm sort of wasting my breath, but there's a quote I like that I can't remember specifically and can't be bothered to look up but it is something like "Nobody ever leaves an argument holding EXACTLY the same position they held at the beginning." I was once a super religious semi-nutjob and I'd have arguments with people and even though I know they wouldn't think they budged me and I wouldn't admit that I was budged at the time, reason can still worm its way in there. I mean eventually enough got in that I rejected all that madness entirely. Plus, I'm unemployed and high at home and I like arguing and I like giving a counter to the crazy hatred in the world if only for someone else to read, so fuck it.
n/a interfused-soap 2017-04-25
From the proselytized to proselytizing? Just pulling your leg, I like the sentiment. :)
n/a SaltyExplorer 2017-04-25
Oh absolutely. I recognize the irony of it.
n/a youstupids 2017-04-25
The holocaust didn't happen but it should have.
Go read about the holocoster, photoshopped images, or any "eyewitness" testimony. Or, ask the soviets why all the "death" camps were only found by them. Not to mention, as a physicist, they did not have operational gas chambers at any site. Good to see you searching for the truth, you better hurry before the rest of the goy find out, so you can at least try to convince them not to kill you all.
n/a 568-47-0008 2017-04-25
I often wonder why you never see the tattoo numbers leave hundreds of thousands, never mind the millions.
n/a thedogshittacos 2017-04-25
It's strange that there is even an argument over numbers, the nazi's were notorious for extremely diligent and detailed record keeping... No official records on these camps though? I have no idea, just asking
Regardless, may they all rest in peace. =(
n/a waaaaasp 2017-04-25
Wait, it's now just 1 million? What happened to the other 5 million?
n/a Thy_Weapon_Of_War 2017-04-25
I don't know what OP is specifically referring to, but at Auschwitz they initially claimed that "4 million" died there. This was alleged and "proven" at the Nuremberg trials (which were a kangaroo court).
Then around 1990, the official Auschwitz museum revised down the claim of dead at Auschwitz to "1.5 million". I think today it's at only "1.1 million". That is still a gross exaggeration. Red Cross records only show that around 68,000 died at Auschwitz.
n/a jamisonglory 2017-04-25
to clarify, with the new (assumed accurate numbers) the holocaust would be something more like a total of 3-4 million
n/a RedPillFiend 2017-04-25
Omg the anti-Semitism is so despicable! Millions of people diiiiied! I don't use it often, but it's the definition of "Reeeeeeee." Questioning history should be encouraged, but it's not. Especially when it comes to this subject.
n/a half-monty99 2017-04-25
I was banned from r/funny once for stating that a particular popular comic strip's latest submission at the time didn't make sense, and then discussing it. Go figure. I don't think you're a real Redditor if you haven't been banned at least once, or have had multiple accounts.
n/a WilhelmScreams 2017-04-25
Calm down, /r/gatekeeping
/s if it wasn't obvious.
n/a half-monty99 2017-04-25
Thanks for that point to r/gatekeeping, funny stuff. Didn't realize I was gatekeeping, albeit it was just having fun.
n/a mmaisprettycool 2017-04-25
This source is interesting with good info and is well sourced but I haven't finished it!
https://www.stormfront.org/forum/t790421/
n/a moelottosoprano 2017-04-25
I got banned from the donald for racism.. When I was talking about my own race...
n/a Spooky2000 2017-04-25
You really should not go there anyways. "It is a silly place."
n/a moelottosoprano 2017-04-25
I hate blm.. Quite a bit..
n/a Spooky2000 2017-04-25
Ok...
n/a ThePantheistPope 2017-04-25
BLM seems to me about making people more racist. The establishment and particular individuals are doing unaceptable? So therefore I am going to cause tangible harm and financial burdon on my neighbors instead of anyone involved in the wrongdoing? Wut?
BLM needs to at LEAST be roughly thousands of times more clear than they are in explaining to the public WHY they are blocking freeways and looting. People just see them as a bunch of dumbasses standing in the freeway that we should just run the fuck over but that isnt allowed because the police oming after people for vehicular manslaughter are the only thing keeping them alive.
n/a Shroobot3000 2017-04-25
Now I'm imagining a Trump version of the knights of the round table song.
n/a Spooky2000 2017-04-25
Same song, just more spray tan...
n/a actualzed 2017-04-25
OP congratulations on "tearing the veil of tribalism", not sure what path lead you there but unless it's your family, it's quite an accomplishment! Good luck!
n/a rodental 2017-04-25
The biggest problem with reddit is that mods just ban anybody who says things they don't like, and there is no recourse. So instead of discussion we end up with a bunch of echo chambers each pushing a narrative.
n/a mmaisprettycool 2017-04-25
This is exactly how I feel. /r/conspiracy is no exception. This is one of the dangers of social media imo. It's hard to get new ideas traction and even harder to go against an accepted idea within this community
n/a rodental 2017-04-25
Try suggesting that some of the mods may be compromised and see how fast you get banned ;)
n/a Dhylan 2017-04-25
I'd like to see you back up this statement you just made with some evidence.
n/a qsdls 2017-04-25
Huh? I grew up learning that 6 million people were killed in the holocaust (not sure if just the holocaust or all of WW2) and 3 million Jews were killed specifically.
n/a mmaisprettycool 2017-04-25
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1992-05-07/news/9202100662_1_death-wall-auschwitz-memorials
n/a Dhylan 2017-04-25
My grandfather was born in 1893 and he grew up learning that 6 million Jews would be 'something this' or 'something that'.
n/a boenig787 2017-04-25
Who is "they"? Where did "they" change the count from 6 to 1M?
n/a mmaisprettycool 2017-04-25
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1992-05-07/news/9202100662_1_death-wall-auschwitz-memorials
n/a boenig787 2017-04-25
This article is a few months older than I am...
n/a mmaisprettycool 2017-04-25
Same with me but that doesn't change that it's fact.
n/a boenig787 2017-04-25
Please don't go around saying "they" are changing the count from 6 to 1M because "they" aren't. It's a weak argument and doesn't make you look very credible. Now if Wikipedia decided to change their number from 6 to 1M (I checked as soon as I read your post) and it still says 6M.
I can say 2+2 = 5 but that doesn't mean I'm changing the constants of the universe. That'd be pretty cool though...
n/a Kertigen 2017-04-25
The article is a "weak argument", but Wikipedia is definitely factual? You know there is a reason Wikipedia isn't used for research right?
n/a mrjosemeehan 2017-04-25
If you'd just read the article we wouldn't even be having this discussion because it clearly says nothing of the sort OP is claiming.
n/a Kertigen 2017-04-25
You mean like the first paragraph in the article?
Jewish and Polish scholars of the Holocaust now agree that the Auschwitz death toll was less than half the four million cited here for four decades. The actual number was probably between 1.1 million and 1.5 million-and at least 90 percent of the victims were Jews.
n/a mrjosemeehan 2017-04-25
I can't believe how stupid some people are. You literally stopped reading at the end of that paragraph. It's a two page article. It takes about two minutes to read for a person of average intelligence. Why is that so hard for you?
The very next paragraph explains that the old Soviet estimates put the number of non-jews killed at 2.5 million when it's now believed to be closer to .5 million. The estimates of the number of Jews killed remain unchanged at between 1 and 1.5 million.
n/a Kertigen 2017-04-25
You sure are an angry fuck. My first comment was about citing Wikipedia as truth. Wikipedia says 6 million and you are telling me the article says 1-1.5 million.
n/a mrjosemeehan 2017-04-25
The article says 1.5 million at Auschwitz, which you very well know is perfectly compatible with a total holocaust death toll of 6 million.
n/a ThePantheistPope 2017-04-25
fine, "there are even mainstream sources reporting the death count was lowered to as low as 1.1 million. Wikipedia may say otherwise but I could edit the page and use this as a source too."
n/a mrjosemeehan 2017-04-25
Are you learning disabled and literally incapable of comprehending the words in the article or are you posting that article to be misleading in the hopes that people won't read past the headline?
The article says that between 1 and 1.5 million Jews were killed at Auschwitz, not in the entire holocaust. Furthermore, the article specifically mentions that there is no change in the number of Jews killed at Auschwitz. The article states with incredible clarity that only a dunce or a snake could 'miss' that the number of non-Jewish Poles killed there was the only one revised.
n/a interfused-soap 2017-04-25
"As a Jew" I resent the implication. /s
n/a mmaisprettycool 2017-04-25
Auschwitz website gives some information about prisoner numbers: It provides the following breakdown: The number series 1 – 202499 main series - men 1 – 12000 "R" Soviet POWs 1 – 9 000 "EH" – men 1 – 2 000 "EH" - women 1 – 90 000 main series - women 1 – 10 094 "Z" – Sinti and Roma men 1 – 10 888 "Z" - Sinti and Roma women 1 – 20 000 "A" – Jewish men 1 – 15 000 "B" - Jewish men 1 – 30 000 "A" - Jewish women 1 – 3 000 "PH" – police prisoners 404 481 in total http://auschwitz.org/en/museum/auschwitz-prisoners/prisoner-numbers
n/a mmaisprettycool 2017-04-25
Sorry, other comment was poorly copied and pasted. I love when people are as rude as you to only be wrong and look like they are all of the things they said someone else was.
Let's start at this link: http://auschwitz.org/en/museum/auschwitz-prisoners/prisoner-numbers
Simply add up all of the people listed on the official Auschwitz website and the total goes to 404,481 in total. This is the largest camp and the number stated by google is a 1.3m prisoner population. You will find this across all camps, the real numbers are lower than what is understood and accepted. That is all I'm trying to get across
n/a mrjosemeehan 2017-04-25
I'm not even moving on to talking about another issue until you admit that the first article didn't say what you pretended it said.
n/a jamisonglory 2017-04-25
isnt that his entire argument?
n/a mrjosemeehan 2017-04-25
Not even a little bit. It's a two page article. Would it kill you to read past the first four paragraphs? Literally the next paragraph in the article explains that they revised the number of non-jewish poles who died there after the soviets turned out to be lying to make it seem like it was a general slaughter, instead of a specifically targeted extermination of jews.
n/a jamisonglory 2017-04-25
okay now im confused. what point are you contending here?
you seem to be agreeing with OP
or at least obfuscating the argument
this is what OP was addressing, the fact that people will not believe that less than 4 million people died in the camp, not the number of jews killed.
n/a mrjosemeehan 2017-04-25
That was never in any of OP's arguments that I read, though his justifications shifted as fast as his assertions were rebutted. His original argument was that the Auschwitz number couldn't be revised without subtracting the same amount from the 6 million. We can't even go back to argue about it anymore because he deleted everything out of embarrassment when he was repeatedly called out for his poor reading comprehension.
As to your point, of course people still believe what they heard from the communist regime after the war. New evidence always has an uphill battle against the prevailing common knowledge.
n/a jamisonglory 2017-04-25
..
these are the two comments in the thread that are clear about his motivations
n/a mrjosemeehan 2017-04-25
OK you got me. I can't resist how extraordinarily stupid one would have to be to only have the capability of superficially skimming over all of three pages worth of text without fully comprehending any of it. I'll address this one, too.
You're not looking at a list of people. You're looking at a range of ID numbers which were issued. The very same page you're linking me to right now acknowledges that these numbers were reused, meaning when someone died or was transferred away, they just gave the old number to someone else. That right there is enough to fully invalidate your argument, not even to mention the fact that a number of people may have been executed on arrival without even receiving a number.
The only thing this link establishes is that there were never more than 400,000 prisoners fully 'booked' into Auschwitz at any one time.
n/a a_trashcan 2017-04-25
When did they change it to 1 million? I can't find a source for that.
n/a mmaisprettycool 2017-04-25
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1992-05-07/news/9202100662_1_death-wall-auschwitz-memorials
n/a a_trashcan 2017-04-25
Well first off the article answers your question pretty well so I don't know why you would bother asking.
And that article DOES NOT say that only 1 million Jews died in the holocaust as opposed to 6. It says that the original estimate of 4 million people dying AT AUSCHWITZ (and only at that specific camp) was incorrect because the Communist government of Poland purposefully overestimated the number of POLES killed not the number of jews.
So there's your answer, the number of jews killed didn't change (significantly), the number of non-jews killed AT AUSCHWITZ changed so that the communist government of Poland could demonize fascism and prop up communism as the best form of government.
n/a Dhylan 2017-04-25
Since at least as far back as 1900, everywhere you look it says 6 million. The myth of 6 million goes back to the roots of Zionism itself; the number was instrumental in sculpting a narrative that would justify and promote the takeover of The Middle East by Zionist Jews, and the Palestinian genocide which long ago was seen as necessary by the Zionist Jews to achieve their aim.
n/a Todos1881 2017-04-25
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1992-05-07/news/9202100662_1_death-wall-auschwitz-memorials
Yeah they lowered Auschwitz numbers from 4 million to 1.5 million BUT miraculously they kept the official 6 million number.
That alone is 10000% proof that the numbers are all a lie. You can't be wrong about 2.5 million people dying at one camp. That literally means the numbers have to be fake.
6 milliom was mentioned countless times before ww2. http://balder.org/judea/Six-Million-140-Occurrences-Of-The-Word-Holocaust-And-The-Number-6,000,000-Before-The-Nuremberg-Trials-Began.php
There is holocaust laws for a reason. The laws came out around the same time that Auschwitz was lowered by 2.5 million. Do you expect any credible historian to really speak about and say the number should be lower? They could literally go to jail.
Everything I said was a fact. If you get offended by it then you get offended by truth.
n/a mmaisprettycool 2017-04-25
This is the real post that matters here. Everyone do yourselves a favor and if you're not informed on this; read this post and check the links out.
n/a libertyant 2017-04-25
http://www.jta.org/2017/01/31/news-opinion/united-states/remember-the-11-million-why-an-inflated-victims-tally-irks-holocaust-historians
n/a unruly_mattress 2017-04-25
There is no official 6 million number. Various numbers and history thereof are listed here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust#Jewish_death_toll
The Auschwitz victim number was changed because historians worked out a more accurate version of what actually happened based on new information and analysis. I'm just saying, if it's all concocted and fake they could have left the number as is.
n/a DeathMetalDeath 2017-04-25
If you do that now, you can literally go to jail in many countries. Interesting that.
n/a unruly_mattress 2017-04-25
Germany:
Doesn't sound like this law prohibits real historical research with intent of reaching the truth.
n/a DeathMetalDeath 2017-04-25
so like challenging the numbers
Not overly vague and could be used to fuck over someone challenging the narrative at all. Oh only 5 years? So more harsh than if you are a migrant who rapes a german native. Well you sure sold me. How could have i ever had my original opinion?
n/a unruly_mattress 2017-04-25
You left out
I'm sure it was by mistake. I'll explain what this means. It means that if you are a boring historian in academia who found out that there was an error in history perception, and you write an article about it, citing sources, and convince your peers, that's fine. However if you do the Hitler salute, talk about your desire to make Germany great again and say that the holocaust never happened and that all historians are blackmailed by the international Jewry, you will be jailed.
n/a DeathMetalDeath 2017-04-25
so if you come along with scientific evidence and Neo_nazis come out and say "wow this guy is right, see holocaust is fake" Now they do a march about it. Now people blame you for it. Now you a disturbing public peace. Now your ideas are dangerous, Now you go to jail. Seems simple.
n/a unruly_mattress 2017-04-25
This is a very interesting hypothetical scenario - what would happen in the case that the holocaust deniers were actually correct. In reality, however, no historian is buying what they have to offer. Luckily, the only people buying holocaust denial are racists and Nazis, who disturb the public peace very much, so there's no actual contention here.
n/a DeathMetalDeath 2017-04-25
they would then have nazis agree with them and then blame them for hate speech and they would go to jail. Things would then stay the same. I feel like we're going in a circle now. See how these laws could be bad? The Truth doesn't hide from the light. Whole thing is shady.
n/a Todos1881 2017-04-25
The official number is 6 million I'm not sure what you're talking about.
Did you not see the official statement they make every year for the Holocaust rememberance day. 6 million is in that statement. Everyone just says 6 million in everyday conversation.
n/a infiniteprogress 2017-04-25
Mathematically it's really hard, kind of like "khufu built the pyramids in 20 years" hard.
Just take your average office job today. It's so god damn inefficient, then suppose they laid a 2 ton block perfectly cut and alligned with the god damn stars every 8 minutes for 20 years straight.
Hahahhaha. Same thing with holocaust. Take 6 million and even over the entire life of the war it would be a massive number per day of humans.
Sorry, doesn't pass the "humans are too lazy" test. I can just picture the camels back 4000 years ago being like wtf why am I doing this.
n/a unruly_mattress 2017-04-25
About 4-5 million German soldiers died in WW2.
n/a Shroobot3000 2017-04-25
Yes, in active combat across many fronts, from 39 to 45.
n/a unruly_mattress 2017-04-25
So what you're basically saying is, if before leaving to the front, each German soldier who died shot one Jew, that would be about enough to perform this monumental task, that can be compared in how monumental it is to building the Pyramids 4000 years ago.
n/a Shroobot3000 2017-04-25
I never made the original comparison. /shrug
n/a unruly_mattress 2017-04-25
Sorry, missed your edit. I'll edit too
n/a applextrent 2017-04-25
That article later states on page 2 that the lowered Auschwitz count simply means more Jewish people were killed elsewhere and the total death toll was actually up to 7 million, but doesn't seem to cite any sources.
Anyone know what they're referencing?
If the official count of Auschwitz dropped from 4 million to 1.5 million, does that mean there a 2.5 million unaccounted for people that died elsewhere? Or does that merely mean the count was fabricated to 4 million for political reasons and not as many people died in the holocaust in total as we originally were told?
P.S. Not holocaust denying or anything, just curious as I've seen a wide range of numbers throughout my lifetime ranging from a couple million up to 9 million, with 6 million being the officially repeated number in most cases.
n/a unruly_mattress 2017-04-25
That's a legitimate question. The answer would be in academic works. Wikipedia:
You can look up this study, or others. Whatever you find, it will be very boring and contain a lot of numbers, which is the sign of good information.
n/a applextrent 2017-04-25
Interesting.
So by his calculations he was already estimating lower death camp numbers overall. I'm guessing the truth is likely somewhere in the middle. Some of the Auschwitz numbers may have been merely fabricated, but some of them likely died elsewhere and were attributed Auschwitz incorrectly.
There was of course other death camps, as well as the ghettos, starvation, and mass shootings. Many of those people could have been killed before getting to Auschwitz, and were simply calculated in the original figures inflating the number.
As horrible as the holocaust was, I was never taught that the USSR/Russia actually took the brunt of the civilian causalities during WW2, as many as 16 million, and lost another 10 million soldiers. Didn't discover the truth until I was an adult, as my history books liked to leave that fact out. Supposedly there were even cases of entire towns being cut off from food and water in the USSR essentially starving entire cities during the winter. The Nazi's purposely would cut off supply lines and steal the supplies for themselves to weaken their enemies so they could walk right in and take over entire cities without resistance because they had starved the population out. The Eastern front was absolutely brutal compared to the Western front, but again good luck learning about that in a Western country.
One of the craziest things from WW2 to me was actually after the war, during Operation Paperclip when the US let over a thousand Nazi scientists and doctors some of which ran these death camps come to the US and become US citizens and conduct further research in the US. Said research resulted in everything from the MK Ultra experiments, to potentially releasing Lyme disease from Plum island decades later.
n/a interfused-soap 2017-04-25
Another comment mentions that the 4 million figure for Auschwitz was lowered due to the communist Polish government having lied about the number of Poles who died there. I haven't checked this but it sounds familiar.
There are a number of estimates out there. Depending on the source it's something like 5.7-6.3 million Jewish dead, 4.7 million have their names and biographies recorded (this was reported in the news a day or two ago).
These estimates look at population numbers and the like so it's not an exact science, and also why the 6 million figure is normally used. I should probably know about non-Jewish dead, but I don’t. Though to be fair to myself I don't know the figures for other genocides and until I saw that 4.7 million piece I thought the Jewish dead was 3 million - just my ignorance/memory mind.
n/a applextrent 2017-04-25
Non-Jewish dead is controversial in reference to the camps from my research. The article mentioned by u/Todos1881 was 90% Jewish deaths at Auschwitz with the revised numbers, but I've seen other sources state as high as 95%.
Meanwhile, I've seen holocaust deniers suggest the numbers of non-Jewish were much greater, and the total number of Jews of killed was much lower. As the camps were also used on Gypsies, POWs, homosexuals, mentally ill, and others.
One of the arguments I've come across as well is that the death camps were isolated by the end of the war and were mostly run by skeleton crews with little contact from the outside world. So many people died from starvation, firing squads, and other means. Many of these deaths are counted by historians as still being apart of the holocaust, but some argue they should be counted as POW / Civilian deaths as a result of the war, and not necessarily deaths that were purposely or intentionally contributed to genocide of the Jewish population. Then again, those people wouldn't have died had they never been put in camps and ghettos in the first place, hence the controversy and the disparity in numbers.
From my analysis, theres more than enough evidence that the holocaust happened, we just don't know the exact number of people killed and although the majority were Jewish many other populations were targeted as well.
n/a Todos1881 2017-04-25
I was the one posted about Auschwitz changing their numbers. Jews absolutely died. I hardly see anyone try to say less than a few hundred thousand died.
I've concluded based on all available evidence that nowhere near 6 million died. But that's just my opinion.
n/a applextrent 2017-04-25
Yeah I'm not sure on the 6 million number either, but do believe it was likely in the millions when considering both death camps, and conditions of war.
n/a WhirlingDeath 2017-04-25
6 million is Jewish propaganda, as is the Holocaust as a whole. It comes form a Talmudic prophecy that 6 million Jews must vanish before the creation of Israel, which of course happened right after WWII. They had been using that number in propaganda pieces since the late 1800s. The alleged mass graves have been debunked by independent researchers as having no bodies. The crematoriums were used to burn the bodies of those who died from disease to help prevent its spread. Zyklon B was used only used to delouse clothing. People were generally taken care of and most deaths were caused by starvation and disease, especially after Allied bombings cut off supplies. Testimony at Nuremberg was achieved through extreme torture including testicle crushing, and some of the testimony received has been debunked by even mainstream Holocaust historians. There is a reason people get thrown in jail for "denial". These Jews are master manipulators, liars, and propagators. The Talmud teaches them that the are the supreme race and at the gentiles are only animals. They still demand reparations for their alleged Holocaust to this day. Why don't we hear about the millions of people that the Bolsheviks killed? Hmm. They like to point the finger at others and demand sympathy for themselves. They create division and fund both sides of it to keep us fighting ourselves. They promote degeneracy through the mainstream media and Hollywood that they own almost all of. They use the US military to do their dirty work in the Middle East. They rape babies in their religious rituals and normalize it. None of this stuff really sank in for me until I saw footage of rabbis sucking the bloody dicks of babies who'd just had their genitals cut. I've seen some fucked up shit on the internet and nothing has hit me as hard as that, I couldn't take it and I had to shut it down for a bit. You can just type in "rabbi circumcision" on google and find pictures. Only they could get away with this shit. "Oh its just a religious ceremony. Nothing to see here goyim!" Hitler rose up against them and their debt-based money scam that they have used to enslave people and that is still used today. He lost, and became the most demonized person in history.
n/a mrjosemeehan 2017-04-25
The Auschwitz estimate drop doesn't affect the estimate of the number of Jews killed. The new understanding is that Soviets had previously padded the number of non-Jewish Poles who were killed by about 2 million.
n/a applextrent 2017-04-25
Got it.
This would explain the disparity I've seen in the number of non-Jewish killed. I've seen some estimates as high as 95% Jewish, meanwhile I've seen others argue that far more people were killed who were non-Jewish.
n/a mrjosemeehan 2017-04-25
Yup. That explains a big part of that disparity, along with the inconsistencies in counting political killings, deaths caused by neglect of POWs, and summary executions carried out with little to no documentation.
n/a redmotive 2017-04-25
Don't the Jewish get compensation for "Holocaust survivors" (something along those lines and it's vague)? And that means for families in general. As far as I'm concerned, Jewish people have exploited the event as much as they can. Even if they had to exaggerate numbers, money is more important to them then honouring those they lost.
n/a Ls2323 2017-04-25
The whole moderator-system is so fucked up. A lot of people attracted to mod'ing are little people with huge egos.
n/a DeathMetalDeath 2017-04-25
my translation of that "losers with illusions of grandeur"
n/a redmotive 2017-04-25
Those who want power probably shouldn't have it.
n/a Polycystic 2017-04-25
Got any ideas for a better system, or suggestions to make this one suck worse? The current system is definitely flawed, but I'm not sure how it could be fixed.
n/a Ls2323 2017-04-25
At the very least we need a process for appealing a ban. Like a 'legal' system, but of course very simplified. Then if a mod looses too many cases he will loose his position. However it should also come at a cost to the appealer because otherwise there will be too many frivolous cases.
n/a Polycystic 2017-04-25
But how would that legal system be structured? I see two possibilities for that: either a single "official" system established by reddit itself and run by the admins, or independent tribunals that would be specific to every subreddit.
Official system: How would that be fair, or even work at all? There are thousands of subs, and each are run independently with their own philosophies, rules, and problems. It's extremely unlikely that an outside authority would have the knowledge, context, or time necessary to understand the nuances and make an appropriate decision. Imagine how people in this sub or some place like t_D would feel about pleading their case to some reddit authority...
Tribunal system: How would the tribunal be selected? Because in corrupt subs (i.e. the ones that are a problem in the first place), the moderators would just stack the panel with their friends or alternate accounts. This would also make hostile takeovers of subreddits even easier, since corrupt mods could abuse the system to oust other moderators and gain control.
Also, some other problems I foresee with a system like that:
What happens to subreddits which only have a single moderator? Who decides their fate, and what happens if they get ousted?
While people could abuse the system by making new accounts, moderators could do the same. If it's a "3 strikes" type system, they could just transfer their moderator status to a new account once they had lost a few cases, but before they lost their position.
What would the "cost to the appealer" be? Since they are already banned from the sub where they are contesting, it would have to be a site-wide consequence(s), otherwise it would be meaningless. But considering all the potential flaws I listed above, this would discourage people from using the system, even when they might have a legitimate case.
What would stop corrupt moderators from circumventing this entire system using tools that are already available? For example, automoderator can be programmed to immediately remove all posts from a specific user without actually banning them, thus giving them no recourse under your system.
n/a Askalan 2017-04-25
Who are they? On which documents was it "changed"? The official number is still 5.6 - 6.3 million according to Wikipedia.
Sorry, but Holocaust denial is utter bullshit, basically on the same level as the flat earth "theory". There are so many current, much more important conspiracies going on, but your mind is clouded with a bullshit theory that has no effect for our world now and is clearly designed to distract from things like the MIC to the schemings of Goldman Sachs and the whole international financial industry.
n/a mmaisprettycool 2017-04-25
Haha. Read this: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1992-05-07/news/9202100662_1_death-wall-auschwitz-memorials
They are the winners of WW2. It was changed on the plaque outside of Auschwitz, first it was 6 million, then it was changed to four million in this picture and it is now at 1.5 million.
Don't tell me my mind is clouded when you haven't even done your research lol. I understand the evils of our financial industry and it ties in to WW2 in the holocaust which was a for-profit war.
n/a JMP88 2017-04-25
Holocaust denial doesn't deserve the time it takes to refute your bullshit. There are plenty of posts explaining the holocaust and how the figures are calculated, read one of them instead.
n/a mmaisprettycool 2017-04-25
I already made a post dealing with someone as thick as you, feel free to read it or ignore it like you do most things in your life. Good luck.
n/a JMP88 2017-04-25
Thats how many died there you mong.
n/a Hearthstone4LyfeBro 2017-04-25
OP's lack of maturity revealed
n/a skywalk818 2017-04-25
The person who rules you are the person you cant criticize.
n/a SiriusC 2017-04-25
This is what OP posted in /r/history.
The actual reason given was "the number was not lowered".
I did some quick wikipedia-ing & I don't see a single thing that says 1 million jews died in the holocaust as opposed to 6 mill. Wikipedia has the amount of jews killed at just under 6 million. The only figure I found in the 1 million range was the amount of people who died specifically at Auschwitz. So maybe OP was mistaken & was just looking at Auschwitz numbers. Or he's been binging on some fringe websites/videos. I don't know. But he should at least back up what he's saying with some links. This is the first I'm hearing of "them" lowering the number.
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n/a mmaisprettycool 2017-04-25
Ah you're right, that was my mistake and I'll correct my original post. Don't be so dismissive of me and say I'm on fringe websites / videos because you aren't aware of an idea. This was posted here earlier and is a good link, do your own research, they didn't cover this lie well: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1992-05-07/news/9202100662_1_death-wall-auschwitz-memorials
n/a SiriusC 2017-04-25
I'm not dismissing you at all. I'm saying "maybe" & "I don't know". Because I really don't and I'm speaking from experience. I've been down looney rabbit holes before & got so absorbed that it seemed like the only reality possible. But I like to think I recovered nicely.
Whenever someone used "they" the implication is that it's coming from the mainstream consensus. And this is a very big change you're suggesting without any initial backup. So I went directly to wikipedia. If it's changed there or even has a section about dispute there may be an issue but it seems like you're just mildly mistaken, which happens to us all.
n/a mmaisprettycool 2017-04-25
Saying that I spend too much time on fringe sites isn't dismissive? Implying that I'm stuck down a "looney rabbit hole." Ok. Yea you're talking me up?
The number was lowered. All I want to do is make a few more people aware of this. Wikipedia is a good source but why don't you go check out what happened on 9/11 according to wikipedia? Do real research. My evidence is there but you seem like the kind of person I'd rather not spend excess time on. Good luck to you
n/a interfused-soap 2017-04-25
OP is about as Jewish as the Grand Ayatollah.
Holocaust denier / attention seeker.
n/a SiriusC 2017-04-25
No he's not, he's just mistaken.
n/a mmaisprettycool 2017-04-25
Haha. You're a classy guy
n/a interfused-soap 2017-04-25
Oh please. It's a new account that suddenly decides to ask about holocaust numbers in r/history, a sub likely/known to stamp on holocaust denial. They make a point of saying "as a Jew" both here and there, mention denial in their post there, etc. Plain as a day.
n/a a_trashcan 2017-04-25
The original estimate for Auschwitz was 4 million until it was discovered the communist government of Poland lied about the number of Polish people that died and it was lowered to the actual number, 1 million (note the number of jews killed never changed very significantly). Some how the OP got this twisted in his head or is just flat out misrepresenting the truth.
n/a Hearthstone4LyfeBro 2017-04-25
OP puts "as a Jew" in the title, as if that's relevant or makes his claim more credible
n/a legend747 2017-04-25
All I can say is I find it interesting that the other ethnic victims of the Holocaust are ignored
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims#Romani
www.ukemonde.com/holocaust/victims.html
n/a CaptainApollyon 2017-04-25
slavic people were the majority causality of the war.
n/a soullessgeth 2017-04-25
yay let's argue about the holocaust forever. also only the fact that jews died matters. the 20m russians? well they were just communists.
the role of the anglo establishment, including the bush family, in funding nazism? irrelevant
n/a DeathMetalDeath 2017-04-25
this, kinda seals the deal on an agenda. Why are they so much more important?
n/a soullessgeth 2017-04-25
america is a stupid colony and slave state of israel...and america is a joke
n/a SaraSkittles 2017-04-25
What are the actual numbers of Jews who died in the holocaust if its not 6 million, and sources for them? I was always told it was 6 million Jews and 6 million non Jews.
n/a unruly_mattress 2017-04-25
The number was not lowered to 1 million. What are you talking about?
n/a Hearthstone4LyfeBro 2017-04-25
OP appears to be a holocaust denier using a 16 day old account, please ignore his misinformation
n/a unruly_mattress 2017-04-25
That cannot be, he said that he's not a holocaust denier and that he's just a Jew who cares very much about finding the real truth rather than The NarrativeTM. And since people never lie on the Internet, it must be true.
n/a williamsates 2017-04-25
Auschwitz website gives some information about prisoner numbers:
It provides the following breakdown:
The number series
1 – 202499
main series - men
1 – 12000
"R" Soviet POWs
1 – 9 000
"EH" – men
1 – 2 000
"EH" - women
1 – 90 000
main series - women
1 – 10 094
"Z" – Sinti and Roma men
1 – 10 888
"Z" - Sinti and Roma women
1 – 20 000
"A" – Jewish men
1 – 15 000
"B" - Jewish men
1 – 30 000
"A" - Jewish women
1 – 3 000
"PH" – police prisoners
404 481
in total
http://auschwitz.org/en/museum/auschwitz-prisoners/prisoner-numbers
n/a mmaisprettycool 2017-04-25
Wow, great info.
n/a Hearthstone4LyfeBro 2017-04-25
Sounds like you got exposed as a holocaust denier and can't support your argument, Mr. 16 day old account.
n/a mmaisprettycool 2017-04-25
http://auschwitz.org/en/museum/auschwitz-prisoners/prisoner-numbers
404,481 prisoners you say?
n/a Hearthstone4LyfeBro 2017-04-25
/u/IntellisaurDinoAlien OP is breaking rule 10 multiple times in this thread, even in post description.
n/a mmaisprettycool 2017-04-25
Then report it.
n/a Hearthstone4LyfeBro 2017-04-25
Already have.
Hilarious, coming from you
n/a IntellisaurDinoAlien 2017-04-25
So report them.
n/a mmaisprettycool 2017-04-25
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1992-05-07/news/9202100662_1_death-wall-auschwitz-memorials
n/a boenig787 2017-04-25
This article is a few months older than I am...
n/a boenig787 2017-04-25
Please don't go around saying "they" are changing the count from 6 to 1M because "they" aren't. It's a weak argument and doesn't make you look very credible. Now if Wikipedia decided to change their number from 6 to 1M (I checked as soon as I read your post) and it still says 6M.
I can say 2+2 = 5 but that doesn't mean I'm changing the constants of the universe. That'd be pretty cool though...
n/a Dhylan 2017-04-25
My grandfather was born in 1893 and he grew up learning that 6 million Jews would be 'something this' or 'something that'.
n/a mrjosemeehan 2017-04-25
Are you learning disabled and literally incapable of comprehending the words in the article or are you posting that article to be misleading in the hopes that people won't read past the headline?
The article says that between 1 and 1.5 million Jews were killed at Auschwitz, not in the entire holocaust. Furthermore, the article specifically mentions that there is no change in the number of Jews killed at Auschwitz. The article states with incredible clarity that only a dunce or a snake could 'miss' that the number of non-Jewish Poles killed there was the only one revised.
n/a redmotive 2017-04-25
Those who want power probably shouldn't have it.
n/a Todos1881 2017-04-25
I was the one posted about Auschwitz changing their numbers. Jews absolutely died. I hardly see anyone try to say less than a few hundred thousand died.
I've concluded based on all available evidence that nowhere near 6 million died. But that's just my opinion.