Why do you think it was 12500 Years ago? What benefit is there to us being lied to about the date?

It would defy the Theory of Evolution. Ancient advanced civilizations.

Modern humans have existed for about 200,000 years, so if anything I'd imagine it would reinforce the theory of evolution.

It would mean we'd need to rewrite human history though. There are plenty of academics whose careers would not allow for that!

Modern humans have existed for about 200,000 years, so if anything I'd imagine it would reinforce the theory of evolution.

No it wouldn't. Evolution says: that back then (and longer back) they were somewhat primitive (ie. Uga uga I bam bam u hed wit stik).

Structures such as these require immense knowledge of various sciences. Hell, we can not even recreate some of the shit from ancient times, with our modern tech/knowledge.

Read or view some Graham Hancock.

Well we have found enough evidence to suggest they had simple tools, and we cannot forget about the cave paintings in France that suggested they had an understanding of modern art concepts like perspective.

Alongside this ( and possibly predating ) we have ancient sites that yes, we cannot replicate today. So I imagine much like today, there was a disparity of knowledge and technical ability for whatever reason.

It's impossible to talk about these subjects without failing to mention the ice age. It's likely that a few communities kept their knowledge in tact all throughout the ice age. They became hubs of knowledge for the redeveloping world.

I would speculate that a lot of advanced societies existed prior to the last ice age. This would account for the coastal civilizations that are all underwater now. Look at Yonaguni for one example.

Anyway, if there were advanced civilizations prior to the ice age, it's hard to imagine that many sites would be leftover after miles of ice ground them to dust, and then theres the simple passage of time. It may sound convenient that there's "no evidence" but I think we should keep this in mind when we find seemingly advanced artifacts "misplaced" outside of established, known about, advanced communities.

You're talking anthropology, not evolutionary science. When people speak of the theory of evolution, they're talking about a theory of biology, not culture.

Something he dreamt up I assume

I think it's more likely to be ~50,000 + years ago.

I've never seen this before, but that's very intriguing On multiple fronts.

Also, if that's to scale, definitely explains the size of the current sphinx's head.

Indeed. I always thought the head/body proportions were off and it looked silly, even when I was a kid. Teachers didn't like me very much for questioning them on it's validity...

The body was also buried under sand https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Great_Sphinx_of_Giza&mobileaction=toggle_view_desktop#Restoration

i agree much more likely it was at least 20,000 years ago if not 30-50k.

You should educate yourself more on the history of the pyramids. They are not a mystery.

Egyptian society is 8000 years old. After about 3000 years their kings became obsessed with reincarnation. They believed that they needed a home when they were reincarnated. The first monument of this kind was just a 20 foot high wall that surrounded the kings burial site.

That monument was cool, but his some wanted something bigger, so he build a rectangular wall, put a ceiling on it and then built another wall on top of that. This was the first 'stepped pyramid'. There were a few more of these before the great pyramid at Giza was built.

After the great pyramid tons of pyramids were built for around a thousand years. Archaeologists have been all over these and there is tons of details about who built them and how.

One common misconception is that they were built by slaves. In actuality they were mostly built by volunteers. Egyptians were religious fanatics and working on a pyramid was like going to mecca.

Inside the pyramids they left not just their garbage, their shit, their footprints and occasionally their bodies from workplace disasters. They also left a lot of graffiti. The graffiti mostly says things like 'Imhotep was here' or 'The River Phoenix crew is the best crew!'

The idea that they are anything other than what they appear is not supported by any evidence.

This sounds like an accepted view from 20 years ago.

AFAIK it is still the accepted view. I mean it's pretty hard to argue with well done archaeology. And when you have graffiti saying "I built this thing" and yet you want to believe that it's not true....i dunno but it sounds like some pretty low effort thinking.

Egypt had written records. We still have those records. They said they built the pyramids. They told us how they did it. The drew pictures. They left and incredibly detailed archaeological record.

I really think that anyone who ignores all of that evidence in order to hold on to a fantasy is just a mental child.

Those written records also show Egypt had Pharoahs going back tens of thousands of years from when the pyramids were allegedly built.

The Sphinx has erosion that shows it was built somewhere from 12,000-35,000 years ago.

That's the evidence.

You're claiming Egyptian society is 8,000 years old when the sphinx has erosion that places it 12,000 - 35,000 years old.

Where's your evidence?

Both statements could be true if it was created before the Egyptians.

The sphinx erosion thing is really interesting. I need to read up more on that and see if the claim holds up.

But my claim is based on a preponderance of evidence. I mean we have 8000 years of archaeological history showing a fairly simple culture evolving into a great civilization. The sphinx is one thing, with some weird anomalous details. But in the other column we have millions of data points.

I just took a quick look at this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphinx_water_erosion_hypothesis

It really is just a claim that the sphinx is like a thousand years older than most archaeologists think. Not really groundshaking.

You claim archaeology is about being a detective, but you used, Wikipedia? If, as you believe, people need to educate themselves (as you so patronizingly posted earlier) perhaps you could expand your horizons past the first Google result.

I think wikipedia is a really good place to start researching a topic you don't know much about. The point is not to trust the source of the information, but wikipedia gives you a relatively stable point from which to start investigating the different sides.

I don't believe in trusting any source of information. That's why I'm into cryptocurrency projects - they are based on mediating trust-less interactions.

But everyone knows wikipedia, and therefore no one who is vested in a subject ignores it's wikipedia entry. When you read wikipedia you know you are seeing the grudging compromise of many people with different perspectives. It's a good middle ground and helps you figure out what to look into next.

By reading that article I see that there are at least two major schools of thought on the matter. One is the standard Egyptology thoughts on the age and the other is an archaeologist who thinks there is physical evidence of the Sphinx's date being off by 1000 years.

Based on this thread I know some people think it is much older, as much as 50,000 years old. In the past when I have followed links that make these claims they are on silly websites about physics and channeling. I don't give any credence to those beliefs any more than I do any other religion.

But that doesn't mean it is a closed deal. I would love to see evidence of the Sphinx being super old. I think that would be incredible. I've agreed to look into the Graham Hancock dude, but if he is just making shit up then I do think you guys are a bunch of suckers.

I also think we need to address the preponderance of evidence that just doesn't make sense if there were another more Ancient Egypt. We have archaeological evidence of primitive people living in the area before the Ancient Egyptians. We can see their stuff. Am I supposed to believe that they lived with the other Ancient Ancient Egyptians but somehow only the Primitive Egyptians stuff can be found?

It's pretty hard to swallow.

Robert Schoch is the person worth looking into. Hancock has no back ground in geology and himself makes huge leaps based on other peoples research.

Schoch is a Yale educated Geologist and associate professor, and so if you hold archaeology in high regard, I imagine you're more likely to listen to a geologist.

Going back to your original statement, you said that Egyptian's were religious fanatics. And it wasn't slaves that built that pyramids. Does that discount the "you have the option of dying or volunteering" kinda of situation? It seems like a bit of a stretch to assume manual labor of that degree is based on religious beliefs.

I completely disagree with your statement on Wikipedia. If you are someone that seeks truth, the first thing you should do is ignore a user edited website that tells is clearly manipulated to tell the version of history that is most palatable.

Thank you, I will check out Schoch.

You can see the edit history of wikipedia articles, so you should be able to see people's different viewpoints that way. Wikipedia articles are like taking snapshots of a fistfight. You can get an idea who is in the fight and start following leads from there.

Yea and much like a fist fight its the person with the loudest voice that is likely gonna get his arse kicked by the quiet guy at the back.

Religion is not really an exact enough word. There were no other societies around when Egypt developed a civilization so their were no other religions. There were stone age people and there was Egypt. Everything that was worth considering was basically Egyptian and so their concepts of identify, life, death, property, order all of that could be wrapped up in one concept. The Pharaoh was a living god who lead everything.

And when the Nile flooded, people had to evacuate to the desert and order was kept through the priesthood based state. During the monument building period people were organized by their neighborhoods back home and they worked on incredible monuments that anyone would have been proud to work on. They didn't need to be compelled. They were fed and in their beliefs the Pharaoh kept chaos at bay.

It was the word you used. To be precise, "religious fanatics".

You've just done it again, I have asked what evidence you use to back up your statement and you have told me a story.

That's not evidence, it is an assumption, based on some things that may, or may not (do you know, you haven't referenced?) have been dug up at a given point in the past 200 years. You've surely got to see why people struggle with archaeology calling the shots right?

You've surely got to see why people struggle with archaeology calling the shots right?

No, because I am just a guy responding with things I have learned. I like talking to you, but I definitely don't have time to go find references for all the knowledge in my head.

If you read actual archaeology reports you will find that they are sited, documented and peer reviewed. It's a competitive field. It's not like any two archaeologists agree on everything.

Go be an archaeologist. Digs need volunteers. You can learn for yourself that these people are truth seekers.

Believe it or not, I have done on the Roman Ruins in Fishbourne, where I am from. I have actually been to Egypt because the RN sails through the Suez to transit to the Gulf so I got to go and see myself.

I don't know either, but I am not the one stating that "this is what it was, and this is how it is".

Fishbourne in Wales? I worked on an Iron Age site in Pembrookshire! Yachi da!

I don't know either, but I am not the one stating that "this is what it was, and this is how it is".

I'm not either. I just call bullshit when someone comes in and says, "I'm a psychic and the pyramids are 50,000 years old. Archaeologists are all lying to you because they hate knowing things"

And that is most of what pseudo-archaeology is. It's people making stuff up without doing their homework and ignoring the great effort made by people who are doing the work.

But not all of it. I'm driven by a desire to uncover more history and people have been around for a long time. I want to believe I just think real archaeology is the best way to find this information and I wonder who really benefits when r/conspiracy thinks archaeology is fake.

No you didn't though, you came in and said "People need to educate themselves" "It was religious fanatics" "Someone found poop" and "8000 years" you can go back through your own post history to see that. I didn't say anything about psychics.

I didn't say Archaeology is fake either, but I do not agree that it is a hard science as some archaeologists like to claim. As shown in our conversation respectfully,you haven't been able to reference a single piece of actual evidence, just stories that people have surmised based on things they found in the ground.

And fuck no. Sussex. The only time I went to Wales was being forced across the black mountains for three days and despising every minute of it.

Ok, I'm reading Schoch's work. I do remember studying this in school and he is the real deal. It is worth noting that he believes the pyramids are the same age as all other Egyptologists. He also believes the head of the Sphinx is from later. His evidence indicates that the feet of the Sphinx is older, which is definitely fascinating, but has nothing to do with the Pyramids.

But Wikipedia say's otherwise. If we apply your argument to either of them, Wikipedia must be right, because 'an' archaelogist or two won the argument to get into mainstream media.

And that isn't strictly true, Schoch has gone on to make statements about not just the Egyptian pyramids but globally and them being linked to an older civilization, not the Egyptians as we know it.

Right, and I look forward to reading that. So far he looks like he is doing do diligence, but the devil is in the details. I need to read what his critics say about him and how he responds to them.

We really pick and choose what we listen to though. The Egyptians themselves told us their society was much older than what we decided upon.

Looking at Manetho's Kings List, perhaps their ruling class went back 30k years.

Well, their society is older in the sense that all people are descended from countless generations. But their civilization -- the physical things they left behind -- those we can date.

But did the Egyptians have oral history that went back much farther? Probably.

You know we can't date the structures themselves, and the best dates are just guesses.

It's important to remember that ancient Egypt was a society in decline. Their knowledge and skill seemed to wayne with time. Luckily for us westerners, the Egyptians influenced the culture of the Greeks before the Romans invaded them.

Now we have the living remnants of their technology dubbed western science.

I have a theory. I think the Sphinx, the great pyramids were there before the Egyptians we know of and that they deified these structures so much that they tried to copy them. I think an advanced civilization lived there before the ice age and the Egyptians just inhabited the land and took credit for them. Maybe they were the descendents of these ancient people, maybe not.

You recite propaganda well...

Thanks. So you are pretty good at insulting people who know more than you, but what exactly are you adding to the conversation? You believe in some magic fairy world where ancient aliens build the pyramids because -- well I admit I don't know why. I guess you think Egyptians were two stupid to cut stone and put it on other stones?

But what do you know about it? Anything? Go on and respond to the details I just gave you.

People like you are so fucking lazy. I get really tired of your shit.

It doesn't have to be ancient aliens. It could just be that that humans were smarter than you think back then.

people who know more than you

lmao, are you talking to yourself in the mirror again, Ralph?

but what exactly are you adding to the conversation

Mentioning your exceptional reciting skills.

You believe in some magic fairy world where ancient aliens build the pyramids because

When did I say that?

I guess you think Egyptians were two stupid to cut stone and put it on other stones?

No, I think you're the one who thinks of them as inferior to modern man.

But what do you know about it

Quite a bit. What you like to know? Ask and you shall receive.

People like you are so fucking lazy

Yeah, you tell that mirror!

I get really tired of your shit.

Ditto to you.

What? Alright I'll be honest, I think I just have no idea what you think or want. I certainly don't think the ancient Egyptians were inferior to modern man. I think they were modern man. They were the first great civilization in the world

They were the first great civilization in the world

...and I'm saying that's not true, according to water erosion evidence on the Sphinx.

That right there, blows your academic drivel out of the water. Who is the one who hasn't researched? If you truly care to educate yourself, check out Graham Hancock (videos on youtube, books where ever you buy books).

I'll read Graham Hancock if you read something other than Graham Hancock.

I'll read Graham Hancock if you read something other than Graham Hancock

I already do. So get reading, young chap.

What evidence is the 8000 years based on? Actual scientific evidence.

Not true.

For actual evidence that you can check yourself you would have to get some pretty heavy duty textbooks and start reading. Totally worthwhile endeavor.

But to see the basics, check out this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuUMe-43A3E

Its a couple of hours long but at the very least it lays out clearly what the accepted history of egypt is. From there you can challenge or question whatever details you want.

The tl;dr.... once a upon a time there were Bedouins who spent the rainy season at a lake that appears in the desert when it rained. The climate changes and the rains never came again. They wandered in the desert until they found the nile valley. There they created the first great civilization.

The evidence of all this is normal archaeology stuff - site sin the desert and the valley with lots of details that can be dated.

Your TL;DR isnt really scientific. Its a theory that you cant test or therefore prove. Anything outside of archeology which is really a step up from geology?

How do you date stone?

Well... you can date stone but its going to show that it is billions of years old. But for dating the placement of a stone you can do all kinds of things.

• You can find pollen and other organic material between two stones and date that.

• You can find pieces of wood that were used in the construction and date that.

• you can find buried firepits with charcoal and date that.

• you can find human poop, oyster shells and other things like that and date it.

• you can find the written records left behind by egyptians that say things like 'In the year xxxx the great king foobar built the pyramid at'

You see where I am going with this? Archaeological dating is an incredibly exciting field. It's amazing.

No I dont see where you are going with it. It might be exciting but thats because there is a lot of interpretation. If I live in a 500 year old house, and 'poop' in the garde and in a thousand years someone finds my poop, by your logic the archeologist will date that house at 1000 years old give or take. Which would not be accurate.

So someone can find poop or pollun or lichen on a rock but by no means is that verifiable proof of the structure around it.

What written records are you referring too? I have been to Egypt three times and each time a certain piece in the museum was given a different description. We dont actually know 100% what the hyroglyphs mean, it remains a best guess. Egyptology has held a monopoly on the story because it benefits Egypt.

You aren't giving archaeologists enough credit.

So let's say I find your poop in the garden near your house. Does that tell me how old your house it? No.

Now lets say I find your body encased in the foundation of your house? Then lets say I try to determine if your body could have been placed in the foundation after it was built and prove that no, it had to be there before the foundation was poured.

If I did all of that and then carbon dated your body, would you agree that the house could not be older than the body?

Now how about if I found around 100 such pieces of data around your house. And lets say using have a dozen different dating techniques we found that all 100 pieces of data agreed that your house was about 1000 years old.

And then I find the 500 year old poop. What that tells me is that someone pooped next to a house that was already 500 years old when they pooped.

Archaeologists aren't a bunch of hacks. They are detectives.

Honestly I like to think that what we do here on this sub is a sort of archaeology.

Yes I agree. Unless a space was cut into the foundation of the house after it was poured. Then it wouldnt be true.

What bodies were found in the foundation if the pyramids? I am aware of chambers. I am aware that Ehyptologists have blocked invetigation of chambers thay have been found beneath the Great Pyramid amd the Sphinx by sonar. I am aware they ceased the German exploration of other internal chambers using the robot that got so far, found a door then the scientists lost thier visas. I am not aware of any bodies being found in the foundation.

Using the anaology that it is detective work takes it further from science and closer to humanities. You are basically stating it is down to personal interpretation of evidence that cant be tested. Thats why detectives have forensic scientists come in to verify. Archeology doesnt really have that kind of scientific support to hand.

King Foobar was the best

I'm leaning more towards the pyramids being psychic/astral projection amplification devices.

read Princess of Mars...

I by into the idea that the Sphinx is at least the 10,000+ year ago age made by an unknown civ. Probably with an original head of a Lion. I think the Pyramids themselves are in the suggested age of 4500 years old as the water erosion isn't there like the Sphinx has.

I say, that I could agree with that. Even just focusing on the Sphinx being extra old is still pretty counter to mainstream Egyptian models. But it seems possible.

The outer cladding of the pyramids was removed,It could have shown the same erosion.

The outer cladding of the pyramids was removed,It could have shown the same erosion.

The Sphinx was carved out of the limestone bedrock. The casing stones were quarried granite.

The head was of Anubis, not a lion

Over 9,000 that's for sure.

Over 9000?!?!?!?!?

The Sphinx head is literally the petrified head of giant it has a freakin septum. I don't think Egypt is more than 1,000 years old.

Check out Magical Egypt on YouTube. It's around 8 hours long but there is some fascinating info in there.

I've found this one idea interesting: the the Egyptians simply occupied the pyramids. That these megalithic structures were much older than the earliest known civilizations of mankind itself.

Ive read they are anywhere from 12-30k years old. For the life of me i can not remember where. might have been 'magicians of the gods'

What? Alright I'll be honest, I think I just have no idea what you think or want. I certainly don't think the ancient Egyptians were inferior to modern man. I think they were modern man. They were the first great civilization in the world

I say, that I could agree with that. Even just focusing on the Sphinx being extra old is still pretty counter to mainstream Egyptian models. But it seems possible.

You aren't giving archaeologists enough credit.

So let's say I find your poop in the garden near your house. Does that tell me how old your house it? No.

Now lets say I find your body encased in the foundation of your house? Then lets say I try to determine if your body could have been placed in the foundation after it was built and prove that no, it had to be there before the foundation was poured.

If I did all of that and then carbon dated your body, would you agree that the house could not be older than the body?

Now how about if I found around 100 such pieces of data around your house. And lets say using have a dozen different dating techniques we found that all 100 pieces of data agreed that your house was about 1000 years old.

And then I find the 500 year old poop. What that tells me is that someone pooped next to a house that was already 500 years old when they pooped.

Archaeologists aren't a bunch of hacks. They are detectives.

Honestly I like to think that what we do here on this sub is a sort of archaeology.

The outer cladding of the pyramids was removed,It could have shown the same erosion.

The head was of Anubis, not a lion