Spot on man. I don't understand why it can't be a discussion. I believe in Flat Earth to some extent...

Some points that I have brought up on this sub were given a proper explanation by other users which I can appreciate. I'd like to think I may have caused others to become curious as well.

It's when people start calling others retards that pisses me off. We all were probably taught the same things in school so I don't know why some Spinning Ballers think they're so enlightened for reciting mainstream science.

There are massive inconsistencies when it comes to NASA's validity and experiments that aim to measure the curvature of the Earth.

mainstream science

As opposed to?

Observable and measurable science. AKA, natural science.

Lol…science is science.

The Earth was determined to be spherical through what you call natural science…yet it doesn't seem to hold any weight with F'earthers

How was the Earth determined spherical hundreds of years ago? By whom?

Well, hell…if you don't know that then how can you even begin to participate in a discussion on the subject?

I don't need science for flat earth, I got my Bible /s

exactly. lazy and gullible are a bad combination. through in ignorant of one's own ignorance. man. flat earth city

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes#Measurement_of_the_Earth.27s_circumference

This guy died in 194 BC, over 2,000 years ago, and he measured the circumference of the earth to within 15% of its actual circumference using nothing more than a stick, a ruler and some maths.

Do you understand how he came to the conclusion? Can you put it in simple terms?

Do you understand how he came to the conclusion?

Yes.

Can you put it in simple terms?

More simple than the explanation on the wikipedia page? Probably not.

This image explains it very well.

I dont get how you know from that for example how far the sun is.

this is the problem with flat earthers--no imagination. copy and paste that shit into a search engine. don't bother us with your inability to google something.

I would be careful with your statement "science is science".

Throughout history, many things have been determined to be garbage science manufactured to fit a narrative. Many people believe a current example of this is climate science or GM foods.

The truth is that science isn't as credible when an agenda is funding it.

many things have been determined to be garbage science manufactured to fit a narrative

Well then that's not "science" is it?

Exactly. Which is what we're saying is true about your "NASA science".

The Earth was determined to be spherical 100s of years before NASA was created. You do know that, right?

The bible too was written some time ago. So what?

As soon as the stories in the Bible can be independently verified and confirmed you can argue that point.

How have you verified the roundness? Did you use the 1000s year old methdod and can you explain to me how it actually proves this place is a ball?

The means to verify it are there for anyone willing to see. The fact that hurricanes rotate in opposite directions in opposite hemispheres…the visibility of different constellations in opposite hemispheres…an experiment showing that pools of water will drain in opposite directions in opposite hemispheres….seasons…volcanoes…and the list goes on and on.

It's your choice to ignore all of that.

Those can happen without the earth being a ball.

Prove it….

Here is how. For simplicity let's compare a flat earth with a pentagonal earth.

We have two observers some distance apart, A and B. Both observers measure the angle between the surface and the sun at the same time. On both planets, observer A finds the angle is 90^o, meaning the sun is directly overhead.

On the flat earth, observer B measures an angle greater than 0^o, but less than 90^o, depending on the distance between the sun and observer A. The smaller the distance, the smaller the angle.

On the pentagonal earth, observer B notes that the sun is halfway set, meaning the angle is 0^o. If the earth was flat, this would mean the distance between observer A and the sun would also have to be zero. Clearly observer A is not touching the sun, so the distance has to be non-zero. The only way this could be true is if the surface the observers are standing on is not a flat plane.

They don't have to do any maths at all to disprove the idea that their earth is flat.

I dont get any of that.

Looks like you just corrected your post above by asking that question.

You're using semantics to try and prove some point…but the fact is science is testable and verifiable…period. There is no mainstream science and non mainstream science…there is only science and the scientific method.

Right. So let's verify this shit and end it.

Many people believe a current example of this is climate science or GM foods.

And many people are ignorant morons. Those two sets overlap.

to fit a narrative.

And what narrative is that?

The Earth was determined to be spherical 1000s of years ago

FTFY

Indeed. Aristotle some 2300 years ago.

There are massive inconsistencies when it comes to NASA's validity and experiments that aim to measure the curvature of the Earth.

Bullshit. This is why flat earthers are called retards - they assume their own ignorance is evidence.

There are massive inconsistencies when it comes to NASA's validity and experiments that aim to measure the curvature of the Earth.

Please provide examples.

alternative facts

The only group with the ability to know for sure by sending a craft high enough to end the debate forever--say 100,000 miles, are governments.

Private corporations are doing it too, like SpaceX and Blue Origin. I'm sure they're "in on it" too

I don't trust any corporation any more than I trust any government. Here's the thing--I'm doing my level best to hold myself to the same intellectual standard I normally would.

That said, until one of us are able to check for sure, with the proper oversight, and end the debate forever, what I said stands.

And I'm not talking about a GoPro on a balloon. I would demand (and I hope you would too) absolutely zero room for gray area or conjecture. This would require a high tech rocket with optics capable of reaching at least 100,000 ASL.

and so the earth remained flat until each of 8 billion humans made it far enough out to see the curves of our ovoid planet. then it was curved.

If they receive grants/funding whatsoever from the government, they are the gov's bitches and have to play ball. Same with Climate change scientists. If the gov have an agenda, you will have the agenda.

This is exactly right. I'm advocating for one thing and one thing only. The end of this debate. And that only happens with a private citizen and proper oversight. And 100,000 miles, give or take.

Every argument is met with a counter-argument. There's only one way and that's it.

Nope. Here is their argument the moment someone posts that video:

They're in on it! It's CGI! Earth is flat, the bible says so!

buy a go pro,put it to a balloon and send it up to heaven,eventual the balloon will pop,then track down the go pro and look at the video tape:)

Go Pros all have fish-eye lens.

This isn't true at all.

okey put on a camera that doesnt have a fish-eye lens.-.

I have flown model rockets and taken pictures where it is obvious the earth is curved. Anyone could do that themselves. I see your point, just sayin.

I hear you. What I'm saying is that the debate needs to be ended.

Essentially, 100,00 feet up, high res optics, no fuckery (that means oversight by people we trust, not corporations).

The debate is ended man. The flat earth "theory" makes no sense. They can't explain how the sun works. Or why the sun and moon would be round, but we wouldn't be. They can't explain why the sun rises over the horizon. The entire theory is basically based on calling the vast amount of pictures taken of earth fake. And it assumes that in this crazy world, where all these countries can barely get along, that everybody would come together to lie to us about the shape of the earth. Why the hell would they do that? It just makes no sense. And I think it makes all of us look crazy when people keep posting about this ridiculous theory.

The debate is obviously not over. It has more supporters than ever before. The theory doesn't make sense, but the debate won't end until irrefutable evidence kills it. You know that.

The theory doesn't make sense, but the debate won't end until irrefutable evidence kills it.

The evidence has been produced and ignored. Eratosthenes and Aryabhata experimentally proved the curvature of the Earth centuries ago. Thousands of photographs of the Earth from numerous space institutions demonstrate the Earth to be a sphere. Lunar eclipses, the Belt of Venus as well as the visible spherical shape of all other planets as well as the moon help demonstrate that the Earth is spherical.

The reason the debate still exists is because of the erosion of the educational system in the Western world as well as the mistrust people have in the government due to the absolute failure in providing a decent society for their citizens.

Interesting. I haven't heard the reason for this framed in that manner before. You're saying that a sort of ideological or cultural subversion over time has led to this belief in people?

I think it's the only way to reasonably explain how people are able to dismiss centuries of evidence and experimentation (a failure of the educational system) as well as current photographic evidence and video (mistrust in government).

(you forgot god and the bible)

So basically, the perfect storm of cultural decay with religion as an excuse for the fairytale and as a means to dismiss any contradictory evidence.

Add in the ability to make videos which seemingly "prove" the earth is flat and easily distribute them to millions of ignorant people for nothing more than the cost of an internet connection.

You can absolutely refute flat earth for sure, lumping it in with 9/11 just discredits 9/11 more as well as other legitimate conspiracies, if you take a picture of the North Star each night and then played them over multiple nights the stars would seem to rotate, and if you did the same thing on the opposite hemisphere they appear to rotate the opposite way, this wouldn't work on a flat earth model, also it is not true that toilets go the other way on other hemispheres because they are powered to go whichever way the manufacturer intended, but in a controlled experiment draining water from pools on opposite sides of the earth leads to opposite rotation when draining the pools, this also doesn't work on a flat earth model since everything should rotate the same no matter where you are on earth or no rotation at all. Flat Earth refuted.

You're mistaken. I did not lump flat earth in with 9/11, nor would I ever. I simply stated that I was attempting to tackle the debate with the same level of intellectual integrity that I would ascribe to a topic like 9/11, a topic I've spent thousands of hours researching.

My point here is that for every single argument against the flat earth (like the ones you outlined above) someone who is a flat earth believer will issue you a counter argument, and the debate roars on. It cannot be truly ended until a private citizen, not a government or corporation, and with air-tight oversight sends a craft up high enough to show the truth.

You know that's the only thing that's going to do it.

I mean what you basically just told me is that no matter what I say someone will refute it but you can't refute it yourself? I've not seen any flat earther able to refute those two points, but you're telling me someone somewhere would be able to.

Don't mean to come off as hostile I just have a lot of people in my everyday life that align 9/11 with flat earth and I too have done a lot of research on that topic, I've seen several flat earth videos and arguments and I'm still not convinced but I'd love to see a private citizen launch some kind of craft like you said, and if the damn things flat I'll absolutely eat my words.

So will I. You're not coming off as hostile. I understand you're frustrated like just like I am. And it reaaaaally pains me to be one of the people I detest who post about this topic. The reason for the post is to try and explain why the back and forth continues, and offer a solution for ending it. I hope you can see that.

No I feel that for sure and coming up with solutions like that is really the best way to any conspiracy theory. For example with 9/11 we can't just keep going on and on about how the towers collapsed. At some point there needs to be some sort of petition or something to get an independent investigation going. Lest we all end up like conspiracy theorists who never saw justice for JFKs assassination after all these years.

That is honestly my biggest fear. The way we handle 9/11 is going to determine the fate of everything in my opinion. It is that important. With every year that goes by, I can feel it reaching that JFK level of "in the past".

All we can do at this point is keep spreading awareness in our own spheres of influence, the percentage of Americans who believe something fishy happened with 9/11 is going up every year we've gotta get to a point where every September 11th when they wheel out their propaganda every point gets challenged in a civil public way

People do this type of stuff all the time and every time it's presented FE's just call it fake and get on with it.

simply cannot refute it for sure

Lol, yes we can. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RATP53l9MA&list=PLQCOKOZuhSS2L8beLNb9qHNdRJu3qHnSU

Description says they used a Go-Pro which uses fish-eye lens.

If you could prove the Earth was round that easily, FE wouldn't be a discussion anymore. No one is arguing whether Grizzly Bears exist.

This isn't fish-eye...

"4.35mm lens has a .3% derivation at the edges"

That's not a fish-eye lens...

Okay now you're arguing semantics.

It's a lens that distorts curvature so it can't be used to determine the shape of anything.

Ignorance surely is bliss huh?

Don't argue with morons man.

you don't understand math at all, eh buddy? but of course not, otherwise your entertainment of FE would be a passing fancy.

"4.35mm lens has a .3% derivation at the edges" Edit: Also, every time he stops spinning the fucking thing the horizon levels out.

How is that supposed to be a fish eye lens?

Can you also explain how camera spinning can cause the horizon to appear curved, or screenshot when the camera stops spinning?

Here are some with a line drawn across the horizon.

How is the horizon line straight on a curved ball?

It isn't.

Simple answer. I'll quote a couple of comments I made a while ago:

Is this a flat plane, or a circle?

It sure looks like a flat plane, doesn't it?

But no, it is a small part of a much larger circle.

And the second comment:

Here is another look at the reality of it.

This image is scaled so that one pixel represents a box with sides that are three miles long.

At the very top is a tiny red dot. That dot represents the height of Mt Everest (2 pixels/6 miles - Everest is actually 5.5 miles high).

I have zoomed the dot so you can get an idea of the relative scale. Our planet is so big, even the tallest mountain is nothing but a tiny dot on its surface.

That's why you can't see the curve.

you'll say "show me proof, like a civilian balloon at high altitude." then when you see that, you'll say, "oh, that's not what i meant. i didn't mean footage from a civilian balloon at high altitude. i don't believe you."

Civilian balloons have been sent up by flat earthers and show no curve.

Links please. I believe they are on youtube and that said videos do not go all that high.

No. we can't.

Footage lie that hasn't ended the debate so far, and it won't.

You're assuming that both sides of the debate are based on evidence. They're not. The flat earthers simply reject and ignore evidence that proves their beliefs are wrong.

So the debate needs to be ended with clear, irrefutable proof. Civilian pictures or video from high enough up with proper oversight would kill it.

Nope. They'll just claim whoever took the picture is faking. These people are claiming it is a satanic conspiracy that goes far beyond mere governments.

This guy disproves the flat earth and calculates the circumference - but the fact he is not part of or funded by the government doesn't stop the flat earthers from rejecting his evidence.

Seriously just get a simple raspberry pi and a weather balloon.

Go for it. I don't need such imagery to know the earth is a sphere.

My comment must've come off wrong, I was attempting to back up your argument

This guy mentions "atmospheric effects" as being rather significant but does not factor in atmospheric magnification.

Here is a video talking about the effects of atmospheric magnification and how they could easily account for the things shown in your linked video that supposedly prove earth's curvature. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeo_-1h6qUc

Sorry? Atmospheric magnification accounts for why only part of a giant smokestack is visible?

That video was made by a fucking idiot.

First he shows the clip where more of the skyline becomes visible, then claims this is how less of the sun becomes visible. That is stupid beyond words.

The point of the clip is that items below the horizon become visible because the light coming from them is bent around the earth. This happens to the sun as well - when the bottom edge of the sun touches the horizon, the sun is already below it.

Here is how that works

You'll note that the sun appears to be higher in the sky than it is, not lower, because as he repeats several times, the light is being bent downwards.

Here is what he claims is happening when the sun sets

Here we see the sun is higher in the sky than it appears to be because the light is being bent upwards not downwards, which is the complete opposite of what he admits happens.

This guy is such a fucking idiot he proves himself wrong.

Only because that evidence is produced in Adobe Photoshop.

Can you explain what you mean?

Nope.

This video literally proves the Earth isn't flat though.

If ANY video clearly proved anything, the debate would be over and everyone would use that specific video do end it.

Nope.

You give the flat earthers far too much credit. No amount of evidence will convince them because their beliefs are not based on evidence.

You're right. This has taught me a lot. It's tied to religion...it's not ending any time soon. It's cult behavior.

That's because Flat Earthers are morons and you can't argue with or prove points to a moron.

More than it just being flat, operation fishbowl is interesting. I think the flat part maybe a distraction of some kind.

Sure. Can't prove the world isn't run by lizard people either.

At high enough altitudes you can see the earth is curved, either with a camera and a weather balloon or in high altitude flights. People also travel around the world. Not back and forth across it, around it. Because it's a sphere. Like most any celestial body.

Do you understand why pointed, single arguments like those aren't going to kill the debate? Only one thing will, and that's a craft going up very high not sponsored by any government or corporation.

Bullshit.

No amount of evidence will "kill the debate" because "flat earth" is a religious belief, not a scientific theory.

You could take a flat earther into space and point out a window at the earth, and the flat earther would claim the window is an LCD screen.

They can't actually be that thick.

They believe earth was created by a god with a dome over it to "keep out the waters", and that below the surface Satan rules in Sheol (AKA Hell). They believe this because the bible says so.

They are that thick.

Fuck me. Why the sudden surge though? You'd think this would have been way more prominent than just in the past few years

A lot of has to do with the increasing availability of effective means of communication. Even the internet was not as widely used before the advent of the smartphone and even early smartphones - prior to 2010 - had poor internet connections.

Now every man and his grandmother can make a video and upload it with nothing more than a cheap smartphone.

There is also the effect of critical mass and exponential growth. As more people are exposed to the belief and share their view, there are more sources for other people to be exposed to it, so it spreads faster. 1 becomes 2, 2 becomes 4, 4 becomes 8, and so on. It's the same way any other meme goes viral.

It really makes me angry that something like this has so much steam, but 16 years later and most Americans have no clue about WTC 7.

Really? I see videos and posts about WTC7 all the time. In fact much more often than flat earth.

I'd be willing to bet that more Americans know about WTC 7 than believe flat earth, by a long margin.

Refute anything I said and we'll call this a "debate" otherwise you're logic can be applied to well... just about anything. Sure Santa isn't real and he didn't just quit visiting because you quit believing? Have you personally ever been to the north pole?

Otherwise you're just saying "I haven't seen it so I don't believe it" which is hardly a debate. Oh and private citizens, public schools, non-profit organizations have all sent balloons high enough to see the curvature of the earth. You can literally see it yourself on some flights.

Look, I get what you're saying. My point is that it would be awfully nice to hand a rocket with great optics to a popular flat earther with influence, and say "Here you go! Time to prove to us that we're all wrong!" If you don't believe that would put a damper on things, I think you're kidding yourself.

Here's the thing. Facts don't give a shit about flat earth theorists, nobody is going to hand whatever the hell a "popular flat earther with influnce" is a rocket with great optics. They cost money. Lots and lots of money. What we have in the world now is NUMEROUS accounts, from private citizens and organizations stating that the earth is NOT FLAT. But we still have loons who think the earth is flat and people I dunno, fucking fall off the side and nobody ever hears about it or discusses it? There are no corners, there are no edges, that's why there are no pictures of them, that's why there's nobody who says "I'VE BEEN TO THE EDGE" because if they did we might have a debate. What flat earthers are presented with are cold hard facts and like the petulant children they are, they will stick their fingers in their ears and scream "PHOTOSHOP AND CORPORATIONS" without having a shred of evidence to back themselves up with.

Simply put that's why there's no debate, there is no proof for the earth being flat and tons of proof for it being a sphere. Nobody is going to take you seriously if you seriously believe the earth is flat.

I don't believe the earth is flat. I'm not sure if we're misunderstanding each other here. The reason for this post is to try to get people talking about how we can end this. It's poisoning the well.

No I get what you're saying, (I hope) I didn't say that you were one. But that's my point, it's like trying to end religion. It's a belief not based on fact and one that doesn't hold up to any scrutiny.

I didn't realize that this was so heavily rooted in religious texts. I'll admit I'm being schooled on that.

This worries me. Religion is used to dismiss any factual information that runs counter to a belief.

It's not going to end because flat earth people don't care about facts, or reason, or anything that goes against thier view.

we simply cannot refute it for sure

Yes, we can.

Then why is it still a thing?

Because religious morons are still a thing.

I've heard people mention the religious angle and I've seen a couple of graphics showing what they claim is described in various religious texts. Question for you, and I'm asking honestly. If the FE theory rests on descriptions from ancient religious texts, why has this theory had such a surge in just the past couple of years? It's like it came out of nowhere. Counterintelligence program meant to poison the conspiracy well? I'm seriously curious. You'd think this would have been all over the Internet since its inception.

If the FE theory rests on descriptions from ancient religious texts, why has this theory had such a surge in just the past couple of years?

It only appears that way because even morons can use YouTube and reddit etc. Relatively speaking, the same amount of morons a spreading this belief... they just have far more effective means to do it now.

Remember, You Tube and reddit have only been around for just over a decade.

What is the theory as to why "they" are supposedly keeping the truth from us? I always see people present their evidence of FE but no one ever explains why it is that they lie

Because the flat earthers know that once most people realise it is actually a religious belief, like other forms of "intelligent design", they won't fall for it

Okay now you're arguing semantics.

It's a lens that distorts curvature so it can't be used to determine the shape of anything.

I think it's the only way to reasonably explain how people are able to dismiss centuries of evidence and experimentation (a failure of the educational system) as well as current photographic evidence and video (mistrust in government).

and so the earth remained flat until each of 8 billion humans made it far enough out to see the curves of our ovoid planet. then it was curved.

The bible too was written some time ago. So what?

Do you understand how he came to the conclusion? Can you put it in simple terms?

That is honestly my biggest fear. The way we handle 9/11 is going to determine the fate of everything in my opinion. It is that important. With every year that goes by, I can feel it reaching that JFK level of "in the past".