Simple solution, ask them to give you their phone so you can look through it, i mean, if they're not hiding anything surely they don't mind you flicking through their history or recent messages no?

No because they've been trained to submit to 'authority', not their fellow citizens. We're supposed to be afraid of the little people.

Exactly this. It's the reason why if I tell my friends they are being spied on by the government, they laugh and think I'm a paranoid fool. But then it's reported months later by 'mainstream news media' they think are respectable, they'll consider it true.

Most people are conditioned at this stage to blinded agree. Money talks.
In other words "If what you say is true, why isn't it on the news?"

"That can't be true, otherwise I would have heard about it!"

So true, I've heard this argument umpteen times. makes me want to pound my skull on the pavement.

I mean did you initially offer any evidence for government spying? Cuz if they didn't see the evidence until the news reported it that makes sense. You absolutely shouldn't just believe whatever people tell you, they should back it up.

I'm guessing you did back it up, they just didn't like it or some shit tho

Perfect. Then when they cite that reason, you tell them you're thinking about applying to police academy, and ask if that changes anything.

I go for the "lemme see your bank statements" -they immediately close off and feel intruded on since its their money you now wanna see. They didn't realize til that moment privacy matters

Um wut? Why would not letting you see MY bank statements mean privacy just now matters?

The person being asked doesn't realize how much they value their privacy until someone tries to breach it. Simple way to breach it without offending them

You're assuming but I see your point. I still think it was a rather poor example though.

I mean i use that example because it has worked and proven my point with friends and family who say the line OP mentioned

There is more to it as well. Many people don't realise that anything you sell after your finished with it, or do a job for a mate for a little money; needs to be declared as an income. I simply ask people if they declare all their little cash incomes, because if they don't they are breaking the law and need to pay the extra tax. I'll happily tell the state for them coz they have nothing to hide, right? They always answer with, "oh, never thought about that".

That's not entirely true though. You only have to declare income if it totals over a certain amount.

because if privacy does NOT matter, then it won't matter to show bank statements, which are considered private.

It's a perfectly constructed proof by contradiction. I think you didn't get it.

Whatever you say man.

I like the "let the government put a camera in your bedroom and bathroom with thousands of contractors having access to the feed" line.

Suddenly privacy matters.

i wish that one worked, people always just instantly go to laughing off the uncomfortability by saying "i hope they enjoy the free shows"

Damn this is hard. True enough.

go in the bathroom with them, see if they like that

Have a computer or phone? We're already there.

As long as you do not delete or modify anything I would be fine with that.

How about, 'Then you won't mind giving me your email address & password' - it's not just about having something to hide, this lack of privacy means our personal data is compromised, think identity theft, think what if some govt comes into power in the future who likes to send people like you to concentration camps. That could happen no matter which side of politics you sit.

I like the question "So whats your favorite position in the bedroom and how much money do you make?" All of a sudden it gets too personal.

Well...there's people who don't break laws...and never worry about being arrested or harassed...so they look at it like, if you're doing shit wrong...expect repercussions

Slippery slope. It starts off with "oh don't worry as long as you don't break the law you're safe" and it eventually morphs into "oh you're researching things we disagree with?" or "oh you wanna run for office? Haha now the world knows you look at hentai porn".

i always let them think of a couple of bad guys in the past, and how happy they would be in that time period if all was controlled and documented as it is now.

And you knever know what lies ahead, things could change fast and you don't know who is going true all your data in the future. And you don't know what crimes you already might have commited, but you did not know of untill it is to late.

...and considering those bad guys 'in the past' only had shoe leather, Lily Tomlin switchboard phones, typewriters and file cabinets full of paper.

Now they have acres of data centers and a population who stands in line at midnight to be the first with their own personal Telescreen^(C)1984

And sometimes you can see them change their mind while they are thinking of just that.

And sometimes you can see them pushing it away, they will not be able to or can't see the big picture yet.

u/Ev_Lynn wrote (a little further down):

• There have been many times in history where if it looked like you associated with the wrong people, you would be interrogated, arrested or worse. People may think it can't happen again, but it always does as power becomes more centralized.*

“The state can't give you freedom, and the state can't take it away. You're born with it, like your eyes, like your ears. Freedom is something you assume, then you wait for someone to try to take it away. The degree to which you resist is the degree to which you are free...” ― Utah Phillips

You are not born free. If you are born in a country, in a hospital you are already a slave to their system.

When you are born you are given a name and identifier, all well and dandy. But as you continue your jeorney through life there are bills, chargers and fees to be paid to be in the system. Not talking entitlement here, just to be able to travel you have to have a passport, pay fees for using the roads, pay licencing fees to be allowed to use the personal item such as a car(and it is justified for personal safety of all users of the road), you pay reg. Fees for your personal property, schooling, work, taxes. You are not born free, you are born into a system, where everything has a cost. If you dont want to be a part of such system there isnt much you can do, as everything relies on that system, true freedom means there is allowence for more than one system, but alas that isnt thw world we live in.

I just see the system as an obstacle requiring a workaround.

Damage to be routed around.

As a digital nomad (an international gypsy who works online) I see this everyday, in order to travel, by plane or to purchase a car, get insurance which you need to legally drive the cars, etc it is nigh on impossible not to keep punching in your slave's timecard because no matter how free you think you can be it is virtually impossible to move about without showing your slave papers. You can't do it undocumented, you can't do it without constantly being tracked by some organisation or the other. Thanks to bureaucracy (I never thought I would say that) that can't completely lock the people down or control everything they do because bureaucracy = inefficiency but it will come once cashless society, AI & biometric IDing are in full swing, there will be no more fleeting escapes. The stupid thing is that the dumb fucks who want all this power don't even realise that it will probably be the AI who become our masters in the end and they too will become slaves as well!

AI programmed to fulfill the demands of a cabal of elite psychopath child-traffickers.... Welcome, my son. Welcome to the Machine.

Or to put it another way, if you aren't doing anything wrong, then the government isn't making enough money on your existence to suit its purposes. Why else would it protect and import Afghanistan's heroin to fuel its drug war, or enact laws despised by the majority of the population and beat peaceful protesters to disturb the "domestic tranquility?" The government functions because of these things, not as a protection against them.

everything in the universe has a cost. It's a law of physics, thermodynamics and whatnot. Freedom has nothing to do with the "ability to do X". It's a state of mind. I can't fly but I don't feel a slave to gravity because of that.

The "system" is just a thing that exists, if you don't like it, get out of it.

i don't think you understood the quote to it's fullest extent.

Here's the "deal" you're a asset, or a liability... TPTB use what ever they "have" on you to put pressure on you to snitch, or get caught up in some fucked up shit they planned all along... Innocent American's unknowningly commit felonious actions everyday day... The scariest part is when it's all on record and they "bring it up when asking if your brother ever sold weed" or did cousin jimmy dabble in meth???

Did you give them an example of why that's something they should reconsider?

I always tell them how it's a slippery slope and then I ask them to imagine living in a police state where every single thing you do is being monitored by those "above you".

Most act like I'm insane and that society will never get to that point. That or they tell me "well there's nothing I can do about it, why should I care?"

I mean thats kind of a fair point, they really can't do much to solve it

There have been many times in history where if it looked like you associated with the wrong people, you would be interrogated, arrested or worse. People may think it can't happen again, but it always does as power becomes more centralized.

Why do you need privacy? Got something to hide?

(...leads to....)

Why do you need free speech? Got something interesting to say?

Why don't you have a chip in your forehead? Got some illegal thoughts you're harboring?

soon enough...

Why you mad at the government? You a commie?

It's funny because that new/old tactic the media are using.

Are we really recycling commies again?

I read that as a "chip on your shoulder" and I was confused for a second. Good comparison. This Reddit chain got crazier and crazier.

Its going in the butt this time.

We're improving your services by collecting your data and selling it to advertisers.

Slippery slope arguments are weak and they teach you not to use them as early as junior-high.

My attitude is I'm not worried because I'm not doing anything wrong. But that doesn't mean I'm not pissed about the invasion of privacy, and ready to do whatever is in my power to make it stop.

Because one day the state can decide that what you have been doing all along has actually been wrong, and they'll have records of it, and at that point they'll use it to prosecute you if they think you are a threat.

Did anybody read the front page piece in NY Times on Google in the public school system. I don't consider myself naive but I had no idea just How Entrenched they have become in a fairly short period of time. Great read if you go find it....

think of all the servicemen rolling in their graves... thinking "what exactly did we give up our lives for?"

this is shameful... give away that which was fought and died for...

and they give it up as a side thought... it's not even important to them.

Most of them tend to lean right, "hey if there's nothing in your sigmoid why can't they look" paradigm.

The idea that military servicemen died to protect freedom is about as dumb as the "if you're not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about" sentiment.

Military is used to further government and corporate interests.

Uh huh fair enough... The men that died back then didn't have a clue how they were being manipulated.

They fought for what they THOUGHT they were fighting for.

Agreed. And a lot of them had no real education or prospects outside of military service. It's still that way today, unfortunately.

This is so true. But you bloody cop it if you say that too loudly. They are heroes. End of story.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE

This video titled "Don't talk to the police" was what motivated me, many years ago, to give up this type of thought.

It's pretty long but the part that was so interesting to me is how he goes through all the situations where a person speaks to the police, and no matter how carefully he/she speaks, it can be used against them. It's amazing.

Now imagine that everything that you've ever said is in a database somewhere. Whoever has access to that database could paint whatever picture of your life that you want. Remember that time you told your best friend, "I'll kill you"? Imagine a lawyer posts those words on a projector at your trial citing this as an indication of your character as a murderer.

I love that video

I'm lucky and glad I don't run in those circles.

They haven't hatch'd yet.

Sounds like a starbucks line

Look at it this way, it's a cope for how to deal with the stuff we talk about. If you let these ideas/theories/truths manifest and swirl in your head you'll go insane. Living life constantly in fear is no life I want to live.

There are things we do not have control over individually, no reason to stress over it.

You will only keep the freedoms you are willing to die for, otherwise, their gang is bigger and better organized and they're running off a script of prior assumptions. The main assumption: the makers of "Empire" USA want to use its armies to make "Greater Israel" the Yinon plan. As they have dug into the former Republic of the United States they access you as a threat: that's why the police state exists, not "terror" until they simply define you as a terrorist.

I just want to point out that if most of you knew the actual power and resources our government truly had at it's disposal, you'd shit yourselves. It's cute that you think what you say and do matters, though.

Lmao

It's terrifying how many people I meet who have the mentality of "if we educate people, they will take action"

My response to friends that think its OK that the government is spying on us through our devices has become "You have windows in your house, Is it ok with you now if your neighbor/random comes over and watches you through your window without you knowing?" Funny how they think that that's different.. Maybe helps wake them up a little

They think the people spying on them are good guys looking for bad guys.
How adorable.

I just saw a person post something of this sentiment on my neighbor forum. I was appalled. She went along the lines that this is good for us, makes us safer.

What's a neighbor forum?

What's that ol saying?

“To a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail.”

And yet they can't apply that same logic to the State, which should be monitored 24/7 IMO.

We could be shepherds.....

Especially since we are all lawbreakers now. Very visible if you have paid attention about the now long stand trend to pile on charges for every arrest and just how ridiculous the charges are.

This goes way back. It's a variation on that Japanese saying of 'the nail that sticks up is the one that gets hammered'. It's a fallacy, because authoritarians tend to pick on the meekest as well as anyone who shows signs of independence. They have contempt for what they see as 'weakness' and most others see as 'just wanting to get about my business'

Nearly everyone can be bought with simple creature conforts.

dont worry guys they're only lookin for terrorists!!!!!!!

You have nothing to hide? Such a easy fallacy to shoot down.

Please give me all your credit card and bank statements? Why do you have doors on your bath rooms? I suspect you have a weapon/contraband on you and I am in danger please remove all your clothes. Please remove all the blind and drapes from your windows.

You have nothing to hide so none of these are a problem right?

ideally, what is right and wrong?

Just remind that it doesn't matter because they can lie about what you do and will find a way to incriminate you if they so desire.

If you close or lock doors, pull your curtains closed, whisper, put your headphones in or put a passcode on your phone - you have something to hide. Individuals need privacy. It's a basic human need.

You know how any time you install or download or register for most things that is this box that says I agree with terms? Never mind . . .

Just look at how you get treated by airport security even when you have nothing to hide.

Right let me blacken my lungs and get cancer while my liver dies, and then let me quick and die from withdrawals. Hey the gov only cares about us, I'm doing the right thing. You go smoke your marijuana and wear your tinfoil hat, fuck terrorist

You can't blame others for falling prey to a form of psychological conditioning that began almost from the moment they were born and whose main priority was to get them to respect and obey any recognised form of authority quite literally without question.

It's a system that was designed by the very people who were intent on establishing and maintaining their own authority over others and enjoying all the perks and privileges that come with it.

There is no school for anyone still under the sway of that to unlearn that obedience as adults and all of their previous experience has shown them that the penalties and punishment for failing to comply or daring to disagree were always more extreme than the offense ever warranted so there is a distinct disincentive to even consider questioning let alone not going along with any recognised authority's stance, opinion, or dictates.

Those individuals are either too afraid to risk thinking for themselves or else don't actually believe they are intelligent enough to do so.

So they're not and never have actually been "free" in any real way when it comes to that. They not only don't understand or appreciate the sense of individuality that leads others to question or challenge the ruling authorities they mistrust and are fearful of them.

I agree, its unbelievable. I always respond with the same answer. Ok, your doing nothing wrong at home would you want people staring into your windows 24/7? Just because I may have nothing to hide doesn't mean I want to share every idea/thought/moment with anyone without knowing about it.

How about if we found out people in positions of power have done something wrong. And they want to monitor us to make sure we can't stop them. Then can we worry??

This is such a broad statement.

I've encountered a lot of these people and many of them are so wrapped up in fear of terrorism or whathaveyou that they're willing to give up their rights so that they can feel safe.

First, on gotta define what is wrong and what is right. Then, one can judge whether doing the ''right'' thing ensures security

All it takes is to piss off the right(or wrong) person and it doesn't matter what you hide or not, something will manifest that'll do you in. My philosophy is it's the state that should be the transparent ones.

Is there any place I can escape this madness?

"Soulless sacks of meat" is very extreme. More like people just like you and me that could use a little enlightening. That made you sound so arrogant and cynical. Why would anyone want to listen to anything you have to say? Judging from your post I bet you'd be incredibly condescending and negative to talk to when it comes to this stuff. Might wanna work on that.

Indeed. "I just want to be safe"

I tend to think that for most of them the reason they have that attitude is because they are scared shitless of the alternative.

You should tell them about the story of the jews in the netherlands.
Jews who came to the netherlands ( and any other )
Where registered with their birthday religion age and location photo ( and who their family where )
Then the germans invaded took over the databases and had a field day picking up the jews
They had nothing to hide till hitler took over.
Then there noting to hide turn into horror

Where registered with their birthday religion age and location photo ( and who their family where )

Then the germans invaded took over the databases

on machines made by IBM

Some 75% of the Dutch-Jewish population perished, an unusually high percentage compared with other occupied countries in western Europe
Number of jews
1941 154,887 start Nazi occupation** 1947 14,346 Census*

There's a great TED talk that advocates for privacy and explores the subject that although you may have nothing to hide, privacy still matters. If you have nothing to hide, I'm sure you wouldn't mind sharing compromising emails, text messages and photos and videos between you and people close to you? Worth the watch IMO.

https://www.ted.com/talks/glenn_greenwald_why_privacy_matters/transcript?language=en

It is amazing so many people think like this. To put it in perspective. I don't even really spy on my school age kids. My daughter writes in journals, but I never read it, she would let me, but I don't because I want to show fairness. It's like when you decide to spy/monitor everything that's basically a way of saying you are in trouble until you are not.

define wrong. like illegal? Or more like immoral?

Seems to be the prevailing sentiment among the majority of folks I discuss the topic with- apathy abounds.

You may have a point on some level. Many people who were Counter Culture in the 1960s promoted breaking the law, and doing the wrong things. They are now in places of power, and are fascist in how they go about trying to force people to accept their views.

I on the other hand, have done things like Tweet The Kremlin "Istanbul Not Constantinople." After the first time, they took the Crimea not too long after.

I have a friend like that, I told him : " well if you have nothing to hide, then take the doors out of all of the rooms in your house, how would you feel then?"

my reply to this is always, "Well who's definition of 'something wrong' are we using?"

Ask them if it's wrong to masturbate. Then ask them if you can watch them masturbate. Tell them that's what you're talking about.

It is a false mentality. The fact is that at any moment while driving. I could have a corrupt police officer pull me over, plant drugs on my car. If in Louisiana, I get arrested and placed in a trial but there is no public defender to use and how that defender is paid greatly benefits the prisons and hurts the tax payer. With no public defender, I either plead guilty due to threats or I attempt to defend myself which they will argue against. Then due to this and them trying to make an example out of me, they would give the maximum sentence to threaten people against defending themselves. If I resist an unlawful and corrupt arrest, more time is extended. Then I get out, and no one would hire me and I am forced to actually traffic drugs due to the connections that I gained from jail. There is a problem in the current justice system as it can really mess someone up if they do not have the resources to fight it.

There is a lot of tiny problems that add up to one major problem. It needs to be fixed as people's rights are being violated and their lives are being destroyed. This is why I criticize the system because of how easy it would be for someone's life to be ruined through no fault of their own.

My mother in law comes out with gems like this.

The best one was when she said "i think we should scrap the human rights act" I said "so what human rights would you be willing to give up" and she answered "none of them i dont even know what they are"

My wife gave me the "shut the fuck" eyes so I smiled and went out to smoke.

How many archaic laws have we all broken? You can almost guarantee that you've stepped foul of some stupid law that has fallen well and truly out of favour and relevancy. If we've all broken these stupid laws then it becomes a case of them prosecuting whoever they want when they want,as if there's no law at all.

That's why all this 'revolution' talk is fantasy fiction. Nobody will be able to organize an effective force in this 'see-something-say-something' society.

It is impossible to downplay this. The very idea of using the "Good German" defense, because in essence this is exactly what this is, is a threat to our freedom. Frankly if you are doing everything right you are part of the problem.

Even more sad is you havent done more to change the system than they have. Which is nothing

I have the perfect thing to say to these people. When you go to use the bathroom in a public place, are house doing anything wrong behind that stall? Anything illegal? No. But you still have a right to privacy nonetheless.

"But what happens when you need to do something 'wrong'?"

First day in my Philosophy course my professor decided to open up about a discussion about Snowden. This girl and I got into a heated argument and she said this very thing. NO. That's not the point. Regardless of your actions, you have a right to privacy. A right to autonomy. A right to freedom.

Fuck.

Last family dinner my brothers cracked a 'conspiracy!' joke at my expense because i chose to discuss the 9/11 conspiracy with them one time and also casually mentioned Zeitgeist.

Sigh.

"You have nothing to fear, if you have nothing to hide" -Joseph Goebbels

Same logic from a monster, that's what these people think like.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Goebbels

Incase you don't know about the Minister of Propaganda

I did know that, I was making the comparison on purpose. People who think that way are taking a page out of Hitler's book, which is fucked up

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis

Non-Mobile link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis

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It's not even myself I'm worried about, the problem begins when people that are actively trying to expose certain things are shut down because of it.

Like sheep to the slaughter. NOT ME!

"That is like saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say..." - Snowden

No because they've been trained to submit to 'authority', not their fellow citizens. We're supposed to be afraid of the little people.

Exactly this. It's the reason why if I tell my friends they are being spied on by the government, they laugh and think I'm a paranoid fool. But then it's reported months later by 'mainstream news media' they think are respectable, they'll consider it true.

Most people are conditioned at this stage to blinded agree. Money talks.
In other words "If what you say is true, why isn't it on the news?"

I go for the "lemme see your bank statements" -they immediately close off and feel intruded on since its their money you now wanna see. They didn't realize til that moment privacy matters

Agreed. And a lot of them had no real education or prospects outside of military service. It's still that way today, unfortunately.

Perfect. Then when they cite that reason, you tell them you're thinking about applying to police academy, and ask if that changes anything.

As long as you do not delete or modify anything I would be fine with that.

How about, 'Then you won't mind giving me your email address & password' - it's not just about having something to hide, this lack of privacy means our personal data is compromised, think identity theft, think what if some govt comes into power in the future who likes to send people like you to concentration camps. That could happen no matter which side of politics you sit.

I like the question "So whats your favorite position in the bedroom and how much money do you make?" All of a sudden it gets too personal.

Are we really recycling commies again?