What if the transgender movement is being orchestrated as a way to combat overpopulation by encouraging people to deliberately sabotage their reproductive organs
The bigger our population the more of an ecological impact we have on the environment. Obviously we can feed everyone, so we have not surpassed our ecological capacity ie overpopulation. However it's hard to deny that we aren't irreversibly fucking up the environment.
it's hard to deny that we aren't irreversibly fucking up the environment.
Stop mowing your lawn for a year and you'll see how extremely reversible human activity is. We might be able to fuck things up enough that humanity can't survive but the planet would be back to normal in no time.
I think that single cell organism and autotrophs can easily adapt to the environmental shift, but multi cellular organisms will most likely die out if we continue along our current path.
Or, and I know this is just the craziest explanation ever - maybe trans people actually are dealing with something that kinda sucks and take the best route available to live happy lives.
For the fact that transition and acceptance effective at improving people's psychiatric well-being? Uh, okay, here's a bunch, conducted in different countries by different organizations with different methodologies. Something tells me they're just going to get dismissed as "oh but that's only what The Man will let you publish", but hey, you asked.
Published papers:
Colizzi et al., 2013: "At enrollment, transsexuals reported elevated CAR ['cortisol awakening response', a physiological measure of stress]; their values were out of normal. They expressed higher perceived stress and more attachment insecurity, with respect to normative sample data. When treated with hormone therapy [at followup, 1 year after beginning HRT], transsexuals reported significantly lower CAR (P < 0.001), falling within the normal range for cortisol levels. Treated transsexuals showed also lower perceived stress (P < 0.001), with levels similar to normative samples."
Gomez-Gil et al., 2012: "SADS, HAD-A, and HAD-Depression (HAD-D) mean scores [these are tests of depression and anxiety] were significantly higher among patients who had not begun cross-sex hormonal treatment compared with patients in hormonal treatment (F=4.362, p=.038; F=14.589, p=.001; F=9.523, p=.002 respectively). Similarly, current symptoms of anxiety and depression were present in a significantly higher percentage of untreated patients than in treated patients (61% vs. 33% and 31% vs. 8% respectively)."
de Vries, et al., 2014 studied 55 trans teens from the onset of treatment in their early teenage years through a follow-up an average of 7 years later. They found no negative outcomes, no regrets, and in fact their group was slightly mentally healthier than non-trans controls.
Meier, et al. 2011 studies FTM transitioners: "Results of the study indicate that female-to-male transsexuals who receive testosterone have lower levels of depression, anxiety, and stress, and higher levels of social support and health related quality of life. Testosterone use was not related to problems with drugs, alcohol, or suicidality. Overall findings provide clear evidence that HRT is associated with improved mental health outcomes in female-to-male transsexuals."
Lawrence, 2003 surveyed post-op trans folk: "Participants reported overwhelmingly that they were happy with their SRS results and that SRS had greatly improved the quality of their lives. None reported outright regret and only a few expressed even occasional regret." The regrets that were present were primarily due to poor results, not due to having been "wrong" about wanting surgery.
Institutional endorsements, all of which endorse transition as appropriate and effective treatment:
Non-journal studies - less rigorous but often get some good sample sizes to corroborate:
A broad UK survey that provides some corroboration of the above results. In particular, we have: (Page 15): "Stage of transition had a substantial impact upon life satisfaction within the sample. 70% of the participants stated that they were more satisfied with their lives since transition, compared to 2% who were less satisfied (N=671)" (Page 50): " Most participants who had transitioned felt that their mental health was better after doing so (74%), compared to only 5% who felt it was worse (N=353)." (Page 55): "For participants who had transitioned, this had led to changes in their self-harming. 63% felt that they harmed themselves more before they transitioned, with only 3% harming themselves more after transition (N=206)." (Page 59): "Suicidal ideation and actual attempts reduced after transition, with 63% thinking about or attempting suicide more before they transitioned and only 3% thinking about or attempting suicide more post-transition. 7% found that this increased during transition, which has implications for the support provided to those undergoing these processes (N=316)."
Canadian survey finds recent suicide attempts heavily based on family acceptance: only 3% of those with 'very supportive' parents had attempted suicide in the last year, compared to more than half (!) of those without. Note that this one is all trans-identified youth, not post-transition, so it doesn't directly speak to transition's effectiveness.
So you're saying that once their bodies looked the way their minds thought that should, that were happier, basically... How is this different from period with body dysmorphia disorder? When you think about it, it's something going wrong in the person's brain that tells them their body is not what it should be. We all have these kinds of feelings, to an extent, want to have a fitter body or whatnot, but is the extreme nature of these feelings that makes these things fit into a mental disorder.
So you're saying that once their bodies looked the way their minds thought that should, that were happier, basically... How is this different from period with body dysmorphia disorder?
Because that isn't true for body dysmorphic disorder. If someone with BDD is, say, fixated on a mole that they believe makes them hideously ugly, and you amputate the mole, they just re-fixate on something else. See this paper for details.
That's for some, not for others, just as it is for trans people. No two cases are the same, for either disorder, but they are both DISORDERS of the brain.
You've got a correlation/causation issue there brosefarian. I'm not sure it's clear that gender reassignment surgery itself is the leading contributor to that higher suicide rate. It is possible those people could have been suicidal independent of surgery, even if their suicidal tendencies were caused by or related to personal gender/sex issues.
That's the issue. They were already suicidal because they weren't happy with themselves. Then they do reassignment, and they're still not happy with themselves. Hence, in their minds, they've exhausted all other options to be happy. So boom boom.
Then they do reassignment, and they're still not happy with themselves.
Then why do numerous studies, both subjective and objective, find trans people doing about eight bazillion times better post-transition? It cuts depression by three-fourths, that's better than any antidepressant does on the general depressed population.
Face it. If you're a girl and think you're a man trapped inside of a girl's body, you have a mental disorder. Physically removing body parts, and acting like a man does not make you a man. I know it's hard to accept, and I know you've admitted you suffer from this, but facts are facts. You're a girl acting like a man. It would be no different than allowing a schizophrenic to cut himself up because the demon he sees says it's the right thing to do.
Has it occurred to you that I might have actually considered the question and, as a reasonable human being, come to the conclusion that you're wrong?
Perhaps more to the point, you're deflecting from your original claim that transition doesn't work.
If you're a girl and think you're a man trapped inside of a girl's body, you have a mental disorder.
That is an oversimplified explanation. It's not people sitting down and going "okay, let's talk about linguistics for half an hour", it's "hey, this is a quick way of communicating how trans people feel so you can sorta get it".
Physically removing body parts, and acting like a man does not make you a man.
And we're generally not claiming that it does.
I know it's hard to accept, and I know you've admitted you suffer from this, but facts are facts.
The claim "I am a man", as used by a trans person, does not include the claim "I have X body part". Nothing we're claiming is contrary to material fact.
You're a girl acting like a man.
Moreso that I was for the first, oh, about 22 years of my life.
It would be no different than allowing a schizophrenic to cut himself up because the demon he sees says it's the right thing to do.
But it is different from that, for several reasons - most notably, because it produces the best medical and psychiatric outcomes for the person involved.
It's also the opinion of Johns Hopkins, hence why they stopped doing the procedures. Trangenders need mental help. Facts are facts, sorry if that triggers or hurts your fee fees.
Doesn't prove anything nor is it fact, it just proves the radical SJW's and mentally ill have over powered facts, science, biology and psychology.
Ah yes, so when a guy who's opposed every single LGBT-rights-related advance for decades gets rid of it, it's a reasoned and neutral scientific principle. But when they bring it back because of overwhelming scientific evidence and the consensus of every major medical organization on the planet, that's 'radical SJWs and the mentally ill overpowering facts, science, biology, and psychology'.
Ah yes, so when a guy who's opposed every single LGBT-rights-related advance for decades gets rid of it, it's a reasoned and neutral scientific principle. But when they bring it back because of overwhelming scientific evidence and the consensus of every major medical organization on the planet, that's 'radical SJWs and the mentally ill overpowering facts, science, biology, and psychology'.
I know you're mentally disturbed, but I hope you can actually read. If not, double whammy...
Well, you certainly seem to be interested in a good debate. But, just for giggles:
Here is McHugh filing an amicus brief in favor of California prop 8. Here's his brief against the Obergefell case that legalized gay marriage nationwide. Here is his brief against US v. Windsor, which repealed DOMA. And here he is in an interview calling homosexuality "an erroneous desire".
There is a "consensus" for man made global warming, but we all know that shit/pseudoscience. Dude, I feel for you (or girl). You have a mental disorder, and I don't want to see you end your life like the countless who do... Heroin works for a short period, as well..
There is a "consensus" for man made global warming, but we all know that shit/pseudoscience.
So basically, you gave a sarcastic [citation needed] and then, when a mountain of citations was provided, went "lol who trusts citations amirite".
Dude, I feel for you (or girl). You have a mental disorder, and I don't want to see you end your life like the countless who do...
Well, it's a good thing I transitioned, then. Also, your sympathy comes off as really genuine after throwing snarky "lol guess you can't read" literally one post ago.
Can't imagine why people might not think you want the best for them when you're arguing against their well being while sarcastically dismissing their arguments and sources and providing none of your own.
Because you're sources are shit, same with "climate change". I personally do not care what you do in your life. It just hits close to home, because I have a mentally ill family member (schizophrenic). You do you. That shit is not normal, and just know, you are being led to the slaughter..
Because your sources are shit, same with "climate change".
What sources would convince you you're wrong, then? If you are wrong, what evidence could someone possibly present to you that you wouldn't just dismiss? I could bring you a hundred anecdotes, and you'd brush them off as non-representative. I can bring you a hundred studies, but you'll just say journals are just the tools of the new world order. I could tell you my experiences, but you just think I'm too much of a sheep to see how miserable I really am. So what, exactly, do you want?
$cience is always biased to the highest bidder. Sincerely, if you're happy, that's all I want. But I think you are fooling yourself, and others. Not my place...
Then what data do you trust? What evidence would convince you that you are wrong?
This is important. You, and only other member of a democracy, need to be able to make decent informed decisions about other people, and you can't do that if you have no way to judge but your snap emotional response.
While I do believe that some people really do have a psychological/physiological predisposition to want to be the opposite sex. I can't help but feel that it is being pushed upon people and almost encouraged nowadays. I think most people who are truly transgender want to identify as the opposite sex and not some grey area in between with made up pronouns.
Well, there's your issue, isn't it? It's not "hey, I have actual reasons to think this", it's "well this feels true, so let's go with it".
that it is being pushed upon people
As a trans person myself who knows literally a couple hundred others, the only pushing I've seen was to not transition.
and almost encouraged nowadays
If by "encouraged" you mean "something like 1/4th of the trans folk I know, including myself, got thrown out of their families outright", maybe.
I think most people who are truly transgender want to identify as the opposite sex and not some grey area in between with made up pronouns.
And aside from not liking one of those groups, do you have any actual data to back that up?
In nearly half a decade in the trans community, I think I've met exactly one person - ever - who used any pronoun but "he", "she", or "they". Like yes, somewhere in the world, there is probably someone snowflaking for attention. But for every person doing that, there are dozens of actual trans people who won't touch their identity with a ten foot poll because people keep rolling their eyes and going on about attack helicopters.
By encouraged I mean that if a 7 year old who hasn't even gone through puberty wants to become the opposite sex they will face very few barriers. Meanwhile I have to wait until I am 21 just to drink alcohol.
It's not that I dislike transgender individuals, however I think people are highjacking the cause as a cry for attention. There are people who want to identify as the opposite sex, and their are people who want the special treatment that comes along with being a "transgender".
"A social trend exists" does not equal "a social trend only exists because it's pushed upon us by the Illuminati". Like, look at the search trend for, say, "sriracha", which looks almost identical. Or "burrito", which has gone up by a similar margin but a bit more steadily.
Like, yes, people talk about and search for issues that are in the public eye. That's not evidence of a conspiracy, that's evidence of people reading about shit they're interested in.
By encouraged I mean that if a 7 year old who hasn't even gone through puberty wants to become the opposite sex they will face very few barriers.
I mean, aside from the fact that literally no one, anywhere, gives medical transition to a seven year old, sure, they'll "face no barriers".
The earliest medical treatment currently applied is puberty-delaying medication, usually around 10-12. They're reversible and taken for a few years before starting proper HRT. But even those require (a) a kid to articulate what's wrong, (b) parents willing to accept it, (c) extensive psychological evaluation, and (d) a doctor willing to deal with a fairly new brand of medicine. That's not "no barriers" at all, that's "you only hear about the very few who do end up transitioning that early".
Meanwhile I have to wait until I am 21 just to drink alcohol.
Yes, because recreational substance use is totally equivalent to effective medical care.
It's not that I dislike transgender individuals, however I think people are highjacking the cause as a cry for attention. There are people who want to identify as the opposite sex, and there are people who want special treatment.
And the overwhelming majority of people claiming to be trans are the former. It's as simple as that.
But perhaps more to the point, how does this in any way fit into the theory you advanced in the OP. Is it a global population-control conspiracy, or is it a bunch of people looking for attention?
My point here was that there should be a legal barrier to undergo a sex change. The reason that we have a drinking age is because drinking at a young age has adverse effects. Getting a gender reassignment surgery has adverse effects too. Not to mention although it is a medical procedure it's not something that you need to live healthily, a transgender person can be perfectly healthy without an operation.
Hard to make that argument without a citation.
Lastly, the narrative being pushed by MSM is acceptance of what is mainly a mental disorder. An unfortunate side effect is that some people see this as a way to get attention. I don't have a problem with transgender individuals as I have stated numerous times, what I have a problem with is how it is increasing much faster proportionately to our population growth which makes me question the legitimacy of the movement.
They're not getting medical treatment, just changing how they dress and what name they go by.
Also, wow, that article.
It's...
On a website advertising two books within the text of the article entitled "Outlasting the Gay Revolution" and “Be Thou Prepared: Equipping the Church for Persecution and Times of Trouble”...
...cites an article in The New Atlantis (which is published by a conservative advocacy group)...
...written by Paul McHugh (who is citing a study to claim a conclusion that it explicitly notes cannot be drawn within the text of the study itself, and who is the sort of guy to see pedophilia in the church as "homosexual predation" and not, y'know, an issue with the church)...
...who is a member of the American College of Pediatricians, which is a fringe conservative group not associated not associated with the American College of Pediatrics, which is the actual major medical organization.
...which the article does not note, since they actually mix them up themselves and claim that the American College of Pediatrics (the real one) said what the American College of Pediatricians (the fringe group using an intentionally confusing name) said instead (they cite it correctly later in the article).
So basically, their grand "checkmate, atheists" article is citing two guys, both of whom have a long-time axe to grind with the LGBT community, published in a "journal" that exists specifically to advocate social conservatism. Do...you guys know what bias is, exactly?
My point here was that there should be a legal barrier to undergo a sex change.
Uh...there is. Surgery generally requires evaluations by multiple mental health professionals and at least a year of living full-time as one's identified gender. That's a pretty significant barrier.
Not to mention although it is a medical procedure it's not something that you need to live healthily, a transgender person can be perfectly healthy without an operation.
In the sense that their heart will keep beating or the like, sure. But that's like saying we shouldn't treat, say, someone in agonizing chronic pain because they could, in principle, live without it.
I don't have a problem with transgender individuals as I have stated numerous times, what I have a problem with is how it is increasing much faster proportionately to our population growth which makes me question the legitimacy of the movement.
Ten years ago, I wouldn't have transitioned, because it would have been a complete death sentence for my professional life. You see more people transitioning because it's possible to do so without wrecking the remainder of your life, and because they're exposed to the fact that it's a thing you even can do. I stumbled onto it almost by accident.
I grew up in an extremely conservative household that most certainly did not encourage anything remotely LGBT related. Didn't stop me from going to sleep dreaming of waking up a girl every night for months at age 8.
If you have any statistical evidence to suggest otherwise, do feel free to post it. If not, I'll direct you to my post, elsewhere in this thread, providing pretty extensive citations that supporting trans folk and treatments appropriate to them is a good idea.
Setting aside that transition is not surgery for a minute - what exactly would it take to convince you that it's the best option for people who feel a certain way?
Does gender reassignment surgery not fall under transition?
I've yet to see a scientific test for transgenderism. If all we're going off of is feelings to determine if transgenderism is right for an individual, I think that's an unscientific basis for making such an extraordinary leap. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Does gender reassignment surgery not fall under transition?
It is one part of transition, but not all of it.
I've yet to see a scientific test for transgenderism.
In a diagnostic sense? There isn't one - but there's also not any objective diagnostic test for whether or not someone's in pain, either, and as a general rule if someone says "fuck, shit, ow, that hurts!" we don't go "prove it".
If all we're going off of is feelings to determine if transgenderism is right for an individual, I think that's an unscientific basis for making such an extraordinary leap.
It's the basis we have, and it produces good results. If we find a better one in the future, great, but it's what we have right now.
On a philosophical level, maybe, and if you want to get into the philosophical backing I'm willing to do that. But medicine is about what works as of our best current knowledge, not what might or might not work in the distant future.
For example, I had a perfectly standard surgery last year to remove a dysfunctional organ (nothing related to being trans). It's the most common surgery performed in the US, and no one really objects to it being the gold standard for treating the condition I had just because maybe at some point in the future we might be able to fix that organ instead of removing it.
there's also not any objective diagnostic test for whether or not someone's in pain
Supposing this is true, you're comparing apples and oranges. Pain is a fundamental sensation (sense of touch), whereas gender identity is a matter of perception. There's no question as to whether you see, feel, hear, smell, or taste something; it's either something you're currently experiencing or not. There is question as to whether what you're experiencing is one thing or another (i.e. perception is questionable).
It's the basis we have, and it produces good results. If we find a better one in the future, great, but it's what we have right now.
Okay, then until we can go off more than just feelings, I will remain skeptical. It's a shaky basis, and the quality of the results is dubious.
medicine is about what works as of our best current knowledge, not what might or might not work in the distant future.
Yes, but when what works best produces poor results, it calls into question the efficacy of the treatment and the entire theory that it rests on (transitioning and transgenderism respectively).
I personally question any treatment that instead of encouraging someone to embrace who they are, it tells them to try to change something that's unchangeable and expect everyone to go along with it. No matter how many hormone injections, surgeries, or lifestyle changes someone makes, a trans woman will never be a woman beyond a nominal respect; they'll still have Y chromosomes and will never be capable of child birth.
That's what I suspect is part of the reason why the process is unsuccessful; it's because people know that only superficially are they changing themselves, and they aren't actually becoming the opposite gender.
Pain is a fundamental sensation (sense of touch), whereas gender identity is a matter of perception. There's no question as to whether you see, feel, hear, smell, or taste something; it's either something you're currently experiencing or not. There is question as to whether what you're experiencing is one thing or another (i.e. perception is questionable).
I'm not sure how you justify the distinction. The distress I felt at a low level my whole life, and the absolute bliss I felt when I finally figured out what'd been bothering me all those years, is (at least to me) on the same level of sensation as discomfort, embarrassment, or anger.
I might, on a philosophical level, be wrong about why I feel what I do (though obviously I don't think that I am). I don't think I can be wrong about the sensations I experience in and of themselves, and even if I could be, I think you'd need extreme evidence to claim that I am.
It's a shaky basis, and the quality of the results is dubious.
The quality of the results is not at all dubious.
Yes, but when what works best produces poor results
Satisfaction rates in the high 90s, a 75% drop in depression (also known as 'better than a lot of straight up antidepressants'), extremely rare regrets, and physiological stress markers normalizing is "poor results"? Just because you can't get a group that has been massively targeted for a trait they can't escape down to 100% as healthy as the general public doesn't mean you got 'poor' results, it just means you didn't get perfect ones.
I personally question any treatment that instead of encouraging someone to embrace who they are,
Trans people are embracing who they are. It's you who's trying to tell them that they can't be that because their body doesn't look a particular way.
it tells them to try to change something that's unchangeable
Sex is, to a fair extent, changeable. Gender doesn't need to be.
No matter how many hormone injections, surgeries, or lifestyle changes someone makes, a trans woman will never be a woman beyond a nominal respect; they'll still have Y chromosomes and will never be capable of child birth.
That's what I suspect is part of the reason why the process is unsuccessful; it's because people know that only superficially are they changing themselves, and they aren't actually becoming the opposite gender.
Ah yes, the old "they secretly know I'm right and just won't admit it!" approach.
I know that I can't fully change every aspect of my sex. And yes, that sucks! I'd really like to be able to carry a child. But the changes I could make have been literally the best decision I have ever made. I smile nearly every single morning when I see myself in the mirror because I see me there, not a mask I can't take off.
"For people who feel a certain way"... I'm just wondering... If I felt that I was born a tiger and needed to somehow get surgery to make myself look more like a tiger, tail, tattoos of stripes all over my body, etc., would that be seen as a mental disorder, or just what makes me feel good? There is no distinction.
"For people who feel a certain way"... I'm just wondering... If I felt that I was born a tiger
We have a reasonably good developmental model for how a human brain develops as masculine or feminine, and even a reasonably good set of theories for how this development might not end up matching that human's sex chromosomes or development of external sex-linked characteristics.
What's your theory for how a human brain could develop as a tiger?
It's all in their heads, like the people who think that deep down they are supposed to be a cat or whatever, it doesnt matter if it's every going to happen or not, its the same premise, they want to be something that they shouldn't be. A male brain born into a female body? Do you really think it's so separate that they can get switched up like that? Could you show me the theories that you speak of? I get that you don't see how someone could think they would actually turn into a tiger because we are humans, but isn't it just as weird for a man to think he's really a woman deep down? If the body is fine, then it's a disorder of the brain that makes them think these things, both are abnormal and are caused by something going wrong in the developing fetus.
I get that you don't see how someone could think they would actually turn into a tiger because we are humans, but isn't it just as weird for a man to think he's really a woman deep down?
You seriously don't see any difference between someone having a human body (regardless if it's male or female) and someone being a tiger? That's a bit ridiculous.
If a person develops a brain that's more comfortable exposed to estrogen and in a body that has feminine physical characteristics, why is it your business if they expose themselves to estrogen and develop feminine physical characteristics?
You're attempting to muddy things by bringing up tigers and disbelieving that there can be such a thing as a masculine or feminine brain - which science doesn't seem to have any problems with, by the way - but when we get right down to it, why does it matter to you how trans people treat their condition?
There are, in my mind, three distinctions that sort of headline it.
One is that it's both plausible and to some extent demonstrated that gender identity is the result of the physical differentiation of particular parts of the brain. There is no reasonable mechanism for "species identity" to occur in the same way.
Two, trans people are generally not trying to carve an entirely new niche in society, simply asking to be treated as you already do treat millions of others.
And three, and probably most importantly, there's a difference between "feels good right now" and "supports long-term emotional well-being". It is, at this point, well-demonstrated that gender transition is the latter, not just the former (in fact in the short term transition can be extraordinarily stressful). Comparable evidence does not exist for your hypothetical tiger-man.
anything identity related is meant to create the inability to create ways to group up (as in if you dont identify with anything, you dont have a reason to fight)
I think there's definitely an agenda with this movement. I think part of it, is that the people suffering with this mental disorder (as it is still a mental disorder in the DSMV, currently) are being given this by our environment, our bodies endocrine systems are being messed with to the point that we don't know whether or not we're a boy or girl and which gender we should mate with. This whole thing about the LGTBQ community is that it has always been in humanity, just not to this extent. The fact that we are being told and demanded to accept these people and their lifestyles is what has me questioning the whole thing. I think that TPTB are trying in every way to destabilize the American family and our values. I mean, look at a handful of families and check out how little time they spend together, for one. I feel that by continuing to change what a family looks like will in the end, be our downfall. I just don't see how we can be a strong country if we are so pulled apart by TPTB trying to get us to fight and accept everyone, it just doesnt work, un-organicly. We're being pushed into these things, and that just will make people push back, and end in in-fighting. Eh, that's some of my muddled thoughts, thanks for bringing the topic up!
as it is still a mental disorder in the DSMV, currently
To be clear: being trans per se is not classified as a disorder anymore. Being distressed about it, to an extent sufficient to disrupt daily function, is.
And didn't we all just say that the reason for people wanting to do this to their bodies is BECAUSE of their mental ambush about not looking how they feel???????????
You are going in circles because you really don't have a valid point. There is distress before the transition, that is the mental disorder, not after they have the transition, duh. We're not trying to hate on trans people, ok, we're just trying to say that it's not a normal thing to feel that you are in the wrong gender's body, it's a mental disorder which makes the person feel negatively. I think its something that should be dealt with in a different manner, rather than completely mutilate their genitals and get crazy hormones and get plastic surgery, that's frickin nuts to a normal person, completely crazy, which it is, it's the person's brain not acting normally, we shouldn't go along with someone who is experiencing this disorder and let them carve themselves a new physical identity when they know they will never actually be a woman or a man. I've been very interested in this topic for a big portion of my life, and have been mostly supportive of the changes trans people wish to make, but recently I've had to re-evaluate what is really going on in our society, why it seems so much more prevalent and why our govt is making the rest of us HAVE to be ok with their choices, that's what has me scratching my head. Why are we allowing/supporting people who are suffering with this mental disorder to take drastic measures such as to mangle their bodies?
I think its something that should be dealt with in a different manner
And you base this on what, aside from a knee-jerk 'that sounds crazy' response? Again, where is your evidence?
rather than completely mutilate their genitals and get crazy hormones and get plastic surgery
The only one of those I've done is 'get crazy hormones', by which you mean 'take HRT that is already given to post-menopausal women'.
we shouldn't go along with someone who is experiencing this disorder and let them carve themselves a new physical identity
Then why does every major medical organization say otherwise, along with the overwhelming majority of the many trans people who have transitioned and been satisfied with it?
when they know they will never actually be a woman or a man
There's that "oh, they secretly know I'm right, they just won't admit it!" approach again.
I've been very interested in this topic for a big portion of my life
And yet, you have a remarkable lack of any supporting evidence.
but recently I've had to re-evaluate what is really going on in our society,
Ah, and here's the "oh no, I don't have a problem with X, it's just that X is part of a conspiracy to destroy society".
why it seems so much more prevalent and why our govt is making the rest of us HAVE to be ok with their choices, that's what has me scratching my head.
No one is making you 'have to be okay' with anything. Judging by your posting history, you seem to live in the US, where it is currently legal in exactly 100% of jurisdictions not just to think what you want of trans people, but also to stand up and say as much. In fact, a party that explicitly opposes trans rights in all forms is currently in unified control of the US government. So...yeah.
Why are we allowing/supporting people who are suffering with this mental disorder to take drastic measures such as to mangle their bodies?
Sing it with me! ♫ Because it wooooooooooooooooooorks ♫
I bet I could find research that says to the contrary, because it's so varied among individuals, which I'll check into, but you are also very biased, being a trans person, so you are very defensive of people who talk about this subject, I get it. But try to take a view from the outside and see how it might seem, at least, yes in America, where it does seem like the govt and Hollywood and advertising are trying to swing us to view the trans person's condition as normal and a large part of humanity, which it isn't, but it is growing. I personally feel that we are being given hormone interfering chemicals through food, air, medications, etc. that might be producing this effect more than previously. I really want to research this, as I said it interests me to figure out what's going on in the brain.
I bet I could find research that says to the contrary
Please continue, Governor.
but you are also very biased, being a trans person
Having a stake is not the same thing as presenting a biased case. I do have a stake, to be sure, but the facts I present are accurate as best I understand them. I didn't transition until I was confident of that case, so if anything my transition is just putting my lifestyle choices where my mouth is.
But try to take a view from the outside
By which you mean "ignore the data and assume all change must be conspiratorial decay by default"?
where it does seem like the govt
...the government that just rolled back trans protections and is currently run by a party who quite clearly does not accept trans people as a group?
and Hollywood
Is very liberal, yes. No debate that your typical Hollywood type does indeed want you to accept trans people. I just don't think that's part of an evil scheme to stop people from breeding.
and advertising
Depends on the ad.
are trying to swing us to view the trans person's condition as normal
No, they're trying to get you to view trans people as generally normal people who should not be targeted simply because they are trans.
and a large part of humanity
Not sure what you're aiming for on that.
I personally feel that we are being given hormone interfering chemicals through food, air, medications, etc. that might be producing this effect more than previously.
"Given" implies intent, which it doesn't seem like you have anything to really support. But "exposed to incidentally", sure - there's actually a fair amount of research on this, and it is plausible that it's involved to some extent. But I suspect that most of the rise is from increasing acceptance, given that it so sharply correlates with where people are or are not accepted for being trans.
I'm not going to be annoying like you and break down each word said, I'm telling you what I feel is happening and you're going to contradict it, so fun, anyway have fun being a guy girl.
No, you think because you're a trans person, you know everything about it, and so you're just going to sit on your pedestal and tell everyone they're wrong for their beliefs and feelings. The fact is, that ya'll got some fucked up shit going on in your heads telling you to slice your penis open and flare it out to be a fucking vagina, that's fucking crazy, period!!! So I'm done with you and anything else you have to say, good job pushing people to not like you even more ;)
No, you think because you're a trans person, you know everything about it
Not at all. I think I know a lot about it because I've been having these discussions more or less every day for about half a decade now, and because I can back up my claims with dozens of studies.
and so you're just going to sit on your pedestal and tell everyone they're wrong for their beliefs and feelings
Because they are wrong in their beliefs. Feelings don't turn on a dime, I know that, but all I'm asking is that people try to work on them.
The fact is, that ya'll got some fucked up shit going on in your heads telling you to slice your penis open and flare it out to be a fucking vagina, that's fucking crazy, period!!!
So basically no, you don't actually have any data, you're just going "nope that's too crazy won't accept it bye".
So I'm done with you and anything else you have to say, good job pushing people to not like you even more ;)
By, what, refuting your terrible arguments point by point?
Did I don't have the time to go find fucking articles proving my points or else I would. You don't provide any either, just your word, so why don't you enlighten me, eh? Show me ALL your data so I may educate my ignorant mind. I have a masters in MFT, background in psych, so lets hear it! I also have my own personal beliefs and opinions that may not gel with current research, and as research is fluid and always evolving, whose to say. I don't know man, I'm not mad at ya'll, I think if you ask any person who has this affliction, if they'd rather be without it, I think they'd say yes. So with that said, I think we're being given this disorder, and doesn't that make you mad? I feel the same about other mental disorders as well as physical illnesses such as Autism spectrum, ADHD, and other hormone disrupting disorders. I have my opinions on why and stuff, it's rabbit hole stuff, so I'll just try to do more research on the whole thing, never said I was done learning.
I don't have the time to go find articles proving my points or else I would. You don't provide any either, just your word, so why don't you enlighten me, eh?
I've provided plenty of links in this thread. If you'd like some on any particular topics aside from that, just let me know.
I also have my own personal beliefs and opinions that may not gel with current research, and as research is fluid and always evolving, whose to say.
Ah yes, the "provide citations so I can dismiss them as 'well science has been wrong before'" gambit.
So with that said, I think we're being given this disorder, and doesn't that make you mad?
I mean...no, because I don't think we are being 'given' it.
Ran across this Bill Nye video which says a lot for how the re-programming is going here in America...Make a childhood science-trusted guy come back and try to drop some "new" knowledge on us to spread to everyone else, younger and older. I have no words for what I see in this video, I cannot believe that I'm supposed to show this to kids! How very un-scientific of him to present info this way! I have absolutely zero respect for this guy anymore, for more than just this though.
That video is, no doubt, a travesty, and I lost a tremendous amount of respect for Nye when I saw it. You're not going to get any argument from me there. As one of the comments puts it:
This is perhaps the best alt-right propaganda I've ever seen. They couldn't have done a better job themselves.
The thing is, being really stupid, trashy, or over the top doesn't make you wrong. I can think that social liberals sometimes take stupid paths to promoting a viewpoint without thinking the viewpoint itself is incorrect, because my opinion of a statement isn't based on whether or not I like the people saying it.
I feel ya, but the fact is that it's out there being done, ya know? Do you get where I'm coming from, like really? I'm not hating on the community or the individuals, I'm upset with the system I believe is sabotaging our bodies and minds, through various methods, not just sexuality based. Think of how many people are getting depressed/anxious and have to take meds that are creating side effects that are damaging our minds and bodies. Think of the GMOs and Round Up that's being sprayed on our foods and injected at the cellular level , that is most definitely having an impact on our minds and bodies, as well as other animals such as bees, amphibians, and other small fauna. I think this kind of in-fighing is what tptb want, they don't want us to come together DESPITE our differences, they want us to hate each other for them, not realizing they are the ones creating the fights. It's deep, for me, it goes deep, so I'll keep trying to find truths and keep the dialogue open, you do the same ;)
No, you think because you're a trans person, you know everything about it, and so you're just going to sit on your pedestal and tell everyone they're wrong for their beliefs and feelings. The fact is, that ya'll got some fucked up shit going on in your heads telling you to slice your penis open and flare it out to be a fucking vagina, that's fucking crazy, period!!! So I'm done with you and anything else you have to say, good job pushing people to not like you even more ;)
It's going from a few fractions of a percent of the population to a slightly larger fraction of a percent of the population. The change in birth rates caused by this is insignificant compared to the change caused by economic conditions.
Reminds me of a conversation between doc and jingleballicks in sweet Thursday by john Steinbeck. One of them brings up homosexuality as a possible evolutionary method to pop control and the other brings up lemmings. I don't know myself it's interesting tho
"For people who feel a certain way"... I'm just wondering... If I felt that I was born a tiger
We have a reasonably good developmental model for how a human brain develops as masculine or feminine, and even a reasonably good set of theories for how this development might not end up matching that human's sex chromosomes or development of external sex-linked characteristics.
What's your theory for how a human brain could develop as a tiger?
There are, in my mind, three distinctions that sort of headline it.
One is that it's both plausible and to some extent demonstrated that gender identity is the result of the physical differentiation of particular parts of the brain. There is no reasonable mechanism for "species identity" to occur in the same way.
Two, trans people are generally not trying to carve an entirely new niche in society, simply asking to be treated as you already do treat millions of others.
And three, and probably most importantly, there's a difference between "feels good right now" and "supports long-term emotional well-being". It is, at this point, well-demonstrated that gender transition is the latter, not just the former (in fact in the short term transition can be extraordinarily stressful). Comparable evidence does not exist for your hypothetical tiger-man.
92 comments
n/a bannanaflame 2017-05-16
The earth has been on the verge of unsustainable population growth for like 500 years now. There's no overpopulation problem.
n/a Blakwulf 2017-05-16
500 years ago there weren't even 500 million people alive.
n/a aevans395 2017-05-16
It's not that overpopulation is a problem. The NWO would be much easier to handle with a small population.
n/a cyphrrr 2017-05-16
The bigger our population the more of an ecological impact we have on the environment. Obviously we can feed everyone, so we have not surpassed our ecological capacity ie overpopulation. However it's hard to deny that we aren't irreversibly fucking up the environment.
n/a bannanaflame 2017-05-16
Stop mowing your lawn for a year and you'll see how extremely reversible human activity is. We might be able to fuck things up enough that humanity can't survive but the planet would be back to normal in no time.
n/a cyphrrr 2017-05-16
I think that single cell organism and autotrophs can easily adapt to the environmental shift, but multi cellular organisms will most likely die out if we continue along our current path.
n/a Tacomano123 2017-05-16
Overpopulation is a myth
n/a Putin_loves_cats 2017-05-16
It's a step in the NWO direction of trans-humanism. Overpopulation is a myth. That being said, TPTB do want to reduce the population.
n/a Chel_of_the_sea 2017-05-16
Or, and I know this is just the craziest explanation ever - maybe trans people actually are dealing with something that kinda sucks and take the best route available to live happy lives.
n/a Putin_loves_cats 2017-05-16
How high is the suicide rate among that crowd? Totes living happier lives.
n/a Chel_of_the_sea 2017-05-16
Quite a bit lower than it would otherwise be.
n/a Armaedus 2017-05-16
citation needed
n/a Chel_of_the_sea 2017-05-16
For the fact that transition and acceptance effective at improving people's psychiatric well-being? Uh, okay, here's a bunch, conducted in different countries by different organizations with different methodologies. Something tells me they're just going to get dismissed as "oh but that's only what The Man will let you publish", but hey, you asked.
Published papers:
Colizzi et al., 2013: "At enrollment, transsexuals reported elevated CAR ['cortisol awakening response', a physiological measure of stress]; their values were out of normal. They expressed higher perceived stress and more attachment insecurity, with respect to normative sample data. When treated with hormone therapy [at followup, 1 year after beginning HRT], transsexuals reported significantly lower CAR (P < 0.001), falling within the normal range for cortisol levels. Treated transsexuals showed also lower perceived stress (P < 0.001), with levels similar to normative samples."
Gomez-Gil et al., 2012: "SADS, HAD-A, and HAD-Depression (HAD-D) mean scores [these are tests of depression and anxiety] were significantly higher among patients who had not begun cross-sex hormonal treatment compared with patients in hormonal treatment (F=4.362, p=.038; F=14.589, p=.001; F=9.523, p=.002 respectively). Similarly, current symptoms of anxiety and depression were present in a significantly higher percentage of untreated patients than in treated patients (61% vs. 33% and 31% vs. 8% respectively)."
de Vries, et al., 2014 studied 55 trans teens from the onset of treatment in their early teenage years through a follow-up an average of 7 years later. They found no negative outcomes, no regrets, and in fact their group was slightly mentally healthier than non-trans controls.
Meier, et al. 2011 studies FTM transitioners: "Results of the study indicate that female-to-male transsexuals who receive testosterone have lower levels of depression, anxiety, and stress, and higher levels of social support and health related quality of life. Testosterone use was not related to problems with drugs, alcohol, or suicidality. Overall findings provide clear evidence that HRT is associated with improved mental health outcomes in female-to-male transsexuals."
Lawrence, 2003 surveyed post-op trans folk: "Participants reported overwhelmingly that they were happy with their SRS results and that SRS had greatly improved the quality of their lives. None reported outright regret and only a few expressed even occasional regret." The regrets that were present were primarily due to poor results, not due to having been "wrong" about wanting surgery.
Institutional endorsements, all of which endorse transition as appropriate and effective treatment:
APA,
AMA,
RCP
NHS
Non-journal studies - less rigorous but often get some good sample sizes to corroborate:
A broad UK survey that provides some corroboration of the above results. In particular, we have: (Page 15): "Stage of transition had a substantial impact upon life satisfaction within the sample. 70% of the participants stated that they were more satisfied with their lives since transition, compared to 2% who were less satisfied (N=671)" (Page 50): " Most participants who had transitioned felt that their mental health was better after doing so (74%), compared to only 5% who felt it was worse (N=353)." (Page 55): "For participants who had transitioned, this had led to changes in their self-harming. 63% felt that they harmed themselves more before they transitioned, with only 3% harming themselves more after transition (N=206)." (Page 59): "Suicidal ideation and actual attempts reduced after transition, with 63% thinking about or attempting suicide more before they transitioned and only 3% thinking about or attempting suicide more post-transition. 7% found that this increased during transition, which has implications for the support provided to those undergoing these processes (N=316)."
Canadian survey finds recent suicide attempts heavily based on family acceptance: only 3% of those with 'very supportive' parents had attempted suicide in the last year, compared to more than half (!) of those without. Note that this one is all trans-identified youth, not post-transition, so it doesn't directly speak to transition's effectiveness.
n/a rbslilpanda 2017-05-16
So you're saying that once their bodies looked the way their minds thought that should, that were happier, basically... How is this different from period with body dysmorphia disorder? When you think about it, it's something going wrong in the person's brain that tells them their body is not what it should be. We all have these kinds of feelings, to an extent, want to have a fitter body or whatnot, but is the extreme nature of these feelings that makes these things fit into a mental disorder.
n/a Chel_of_the_sea 2017-05-16
Because that isn't true for body dysmorphic disorder. If someone with BDD is, say, fixated on a mole that they believe makes them hideously ugly, and you amputate the mole, they just re-fixate on something else. See this paper for details.
n/a rbslilpanda 2017-05-16
That's for some, not for others, just as it is for trans people. No two cases are the same, for either disorder, but they are both DISORDERS of the brain.
n/a Chel_of_the_sea 2017-05-16
Citation needed.
n/a irespectyouropinion 2017-05-16
You've got a correlation/causation issue there brosefarian. I'm not sure it's clear that gender reassignment surgery itself is the leading contributor to that higher suicide rate. It is possible those people could have been suicidal independent of surgery, even if their suicidal tendencies were caused by or related to personal gender/sex issues.
n/a Armaedus 2017-05-16
That's the issue. They were already suicidal because they weren't happy with themselves. Then they do reassignment, and they're still not happy with themselves. Hence, in their minds, they've exhausted all other options to be happy. So boom boom.
n/a Chel_of_the_sea 2017-05-16
Then why do numerous studies, both subjective and objective, find trans people doing about eight bazillion times better post-transition? It cuts depression by three-fourths, that's better than any antidepressant does on the general depressed population.
n/a throwaway2964k 2017-05-16
Citation needed.
n/a Putin_loves_cats 2017-05-16
That's because it's a mental disorder. We don't go encouraging schizophrenics, now do we?
n/a Chel_of_the_sea 2017-05-16
No, we don't, because that doesn't work. Supporting trans people in their transitions does.
n/a Putin_loves_cats 2017-05-16
Apparently not, if they are killing themselves in soaring numbers.
n/a Chel_of_the_sea 2017-05-16
That's like saying "oh, chemo doesn't work, because cancer patients keep dying a lot".
When you're working with a group that has high suicide rates to begin with, having less high suicide rates is a success.
n/a Putin_loves_cats 2017-05-16
Face it. If you're a girl and think you're a man trapped inside of a girl's body, you have a mental disorder. Physically removing body parts, and acting like a man does not make you a man. I know it's hard to accept, and I know you've admitted you suffer from this, but facts are facts. You're a girl acting like a man. It would be no different than allowing a schizophrenic to cut himself up because the demon he sees says it's the right thing to do.
n/a Chel_of_the_sea 2017-05-16
Has it occurred to you that I might have actually considered the question and, as a reasonable human being, come to the conclusion that you're wrong?
Perhaps more to the point, you're deflecting from your original claim that transition doesn't work.
That is an oversimplified explanation. It's not people sitting down and going "okay, let's talk about linguistics for half an hour", it's "hey, this is a quick way of communicating how trans people feel so you can sorta get it".
And we're generally not claiming that it does.
The claim "I am a man", as used by a trans person, does not include the claim "I have X body part". Nothing we're claiming is contrary to material fact.
Moreso that I was for the first, oh, about 22 years of my life.
But it is different from that, for several reasons - most notably, because it produces the best medical and psychiatric outcomes for the person involved.
n/a irespectyouropinion 2017-05-16
That's just, like, your opinion man.
n/a Putin_loves_cats 2017-05-16
It's also the opinion of Johns Hopkins, hence why they stopped doing the procedures. Trangenders need mental help. Facts are facts, sorry if that triggers or hurts your fee fees.
n/a irespectyouropinion 2017-05-16
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/national/health-science/long-shadow-cast-by-psychiatrist-on-transgender-issues-finally-recedes-at-johns-hopkins/2017/04/05/e851e56e-0d85-11e7-ab07-07d9f521f6b5_story.html
Bwahaha facts are facts Mr. Fee Fee. Hope that trips your trigger.
n/a Putin_loves_cats 2017-05-16
Doesn't prove anything nor is it fact, it just proves the radical SJW's and mentally ill have over powered facts, science, biology and psychology.
Why would it trigger me? I actually pity them.
n/a Chel_of_the_sea 2017-05-16
Ah yes, so when a guy who's opposed every single LGBT-rights-related advance for decades gets rid of it, it's a reasoned and neutral scientific principle. But when they bring it back because of overwhelming scientific evidence and the consensus of every major medical organization on the planet, that's 'radical SJWs and the mentally ill overpowering facts, science, biology, and psychology'.
n/a Putin_loves_cats 2017-05-16
Citation needed.
n/a Chel_of_the_sea 2017-05-16
For which claim?
n/a Putin_loves_cats 2017-05-16
I know you're mentally disturbed, but I hope you can actually read. If not, double whammy...
n/a Chel_of_the_sea 2017-05-16
Well, you certainly seem to be interested in a good debate. But, just for giggles:
Here is McHugh filing an amicus brief in favor of California prop 8. Here's his brief against the Obergefell case that legalized gay marriage nationwide. Here is his brief against US v. Windsor, which repealed DOMA. And here he is in an interview calling homosexuality "an erroneous desire".
The consensus of major medical organizations, and a number of studies on the subject, have been covered in another post of mine in this thread.
And the last bit is quoting you, in the post right before.
So, now that I've provided...let's see, 16 sources for my claims, how's about you go ahead and bring in a few of your own if you want to keep going.
n/a Putin_loves_cats 2017-05-16
There is a "consensus" for man made global warming, but we all know that shit/pseudoscience. Dude, I feel for you (or girl). You have a mental disorder, and I don't want to see you end your life like the countless who do... Heroin works for a short period, as well..
n/a Chel_of_the_sea 2017-05-16
So basically, you gave a sarcastic [citation needed] and then, when a mountain of citations was provided, went "lol who trusts citations amirite".
Well, it's a good thing I transitioned, then. Also, your sympathy comes off as really genuine after throwing snarky "lol guess you can't read" literally one post ago.
I've been transitioned for many years, thanks.
n/a Putin_loves_cats 2017-05-16
I wish you the best. Something people do not actually get from me....
n/a Chel_of_the_sea 2017-05-16
Can't imagine why people might not think you want the best for them when you're arguing against their well being while sarcastically dismissing their arguments and sources and providing none of your own.
n/a Putin_loves_cats 2017-05-16
Because you're sources are shit, same with "climate change". I personally do not care what you do in your life. It just hits close to home, because I have a mentally ill family member (schizophrenic). You do you. That shit is not normal, and just know, you are being led to the slaughter..
Peace and love, Chelsea.
n/a Chel_of_the_sea 2017-05-16
What sources would convince you you're wrong, then? If you are wrong, what evidence could someone possibly present to you that you wouldn't just dismiss? I could bring you a hundred anecdotes, and you'd brush them off as non-representative. I can bring you a hundred studies, but you'll just say journals are just the tools of the new world order. I could tell you my experiences, but you just think I'm too much of a sheep to see how miserable I really am. So what, exactly, do you want?
n/a Putin_loves_cats 2017-05-16
$cience is always biased to the highest bidder. Sincerely, if you're happy, that's all I want. But I think you are fooling yourself, and others. Not my place...
n/a Chel_of_the_sea 2017-05-16
Then what data do you trust? What evidence would convince you that you are wrong?
This is important. You, and only other member of a democracy, need to be able to make decent informed decisions about other people, and you can't do that if you have no way to judge but your snap emotional response.
I am, at least with my transition.
n/a cyphrrr 2017-05-16
While I do believe that some people really do have a psychological/physiological predisposition to want to be the opposite sex. I can't help but feel that it is being pushed upon people and almost encouraged nowadays. I think most people who are truly transgender want to identify as the opposite sex and not some grey area in between with made up pronouns.
n/a Chel_of_the_sea 2017-05-16
Well, there's your issue, isn't it? It's not "hey, I have actual reasons to think this", it's "well this feels true, so let's go with it".
As a trans person myself who knows literally a couple hundred others, the only pushing I've seen was to not transition.
If by "encouraged" you mean "something like 1/4th of the trans folk I know, including myself, got thrown out of their families outright", maybe.
And aside from not liking one of those groups, do you have any actual data to back that up?
In nearly half a decade in the trans community, I think I've met exactly one person - ever - who used any pronoun but "he", "she", or "they". Like yes, somewhere in the world, there is probably someone snowflaking for attention. But for every person doing that, there are dozens of actual trans people who won't touch their identity with a ten foot poll because people keep rolling their eyes and going on about attack helicopters.
n/a cyphrrr 2017-05-16
When I say that "I can't help but feel" I don't mean on an emotional level, I mean that it instinctively feels wrong.
It's hard to deny that transgenderism is being pushed upon us when 10 years ago the term transgender was barely ever used, and now I hear it almost daily. Relevant: https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=transgender&hl=en-US&tz=Etc%2FGMT%2B5&tz=Etc%2FGMT%2B5
By encouraged I mean that if a 7 year old who hasn't even gone through puberty wants to become the opposite sex they will face very few barriers. Meanwhile I have to wait until I am 21 just to drink alcohol.
It's not that I dislike transgender individuals, however I think people are highjacking the cause as a cry for attention. There are people who want to identify as the opposite sex, and their are people who want the special treatment that comes along with being a "transgender".
n/a Chel_of_the_sea 2017-05-16
And those are...somehow different?
"A social trend exists" does not equal "a social trend only exists because it's pushed upon us by the Illuminati". Like, look at the search trend for, say, "sriracha", which looks almost identical. Or "burrito", which has gone up by a similar margin but a bit more steadily.
Like, yes, people talk about and search for issues that are in the public eye. That's not evidence of a conspiracy, that's evidence of people reading about shit they're interested in.
I mean, aside from the fact that literally no one, anywhere, gives medical transition to a seven year old, sure, they'll "face no barriers".
The earliest medical treatment currently applied is puberty-delaying medication, usually around 10-12. They're reversible and taken for a few years before starting proper HRT. But even those require (a) a kid to articulate what's wrong, (b) parents willing to accept it, (c) extensive psychological evaluation, and (d) a doctor willing to deal with a fairly new brand of medicine. That's not "no barriers" at all, that's "you only hear about the very few who do end up transitioning that early".
Yes, because recreational substance use is totally equivalent to effective medical care.
And the overwhelming majority of people claiming to be trans are the former. It's as simple as that.
But perhaps more to the point, how does this in any way fit into the theory you advanced in the OP. Is it a global population-control conspiracy, or is it a bunch of people looking for attention?
n/a cyphrrr 2017-05-16
Emotion and intuition are completely different mental faculties.
Social trends are hugely influenced by the media.
With one google I found an article of a four year old getting a sex change. http://www.wnd.com/2016/09/child-4-worlds-youngest-ever-sex-change-patient/
My point here was that there should be a legal barrier to undergo a sex change. The reason that we have a drinking age is because drinking at a young age has adverse effects. Getting a gender reassignment surgery has adverse effects too. Not to mention although it is a medical procedure it's not something that you need to live healthily, a transgender person can be perfectly healthy without an operation.
Hard to make that argument without a citation.
Lastly, the narrative being pushed by MSM is acceptance of what is mainly a mental disorder. An unfortunate side effect is that some people see this as a way to get attention. I don't have a problem with transgender individuals as I have stated numerous times, what I have a problem with is how it is increasing much faster proportionately to our population growth which makes me question the legitimacy of the movement.
n/a Chel_of_the_sea 2017-05-16
So again, you're basically just saying "if it feels wrong to me", it's automatically just wrong, end of story, no analysis required?
They're not getting medical treatment, just changing how they dress and what name they go by.
Also, wow, that article.
It's...
On a website advertising two books within the text of the article entitled "Outlasting the Gay Revolution" and “Be Thou Prepared: Equipping the Church for Persecution and Times of Trouble”...
...cites an article in The New Atlantis (which is published by a conservative advocacy group)...
...written by Paul McHugh (who is citing a study to claim a conclusion that it explicitly notes cannot be drawn within the text of the study itself, and who is the sort of guy to see pedophilia in the church as "homosexual predation" and not, y'know, an issue with the church)...
...who is a member of the American College of Pediatricians, which is a fringe conservative group not associated not associated with the American College of Pediatrics, which is the actual major medical organization.
...which the article does not note, since they actually mix them up themselves and claim that the American College of Pediatrics (the real one) said what the American College of Pediatricians (the fringe group using an intentionally confusing name) said instead (they cite it correctly later in the article).
So basically, their grand "checkmate, atheists" article is citing two guys, both of whom have a long-time axe to grind with the LGBT community, published in a "journal" that exists specifically to advocate social conservatism. Do...you guys know what bias is, exactly?
Uh...there is. Surgery generally requires evaluations by multiple mental health professionals and at least a year of living full-time as one's identified gender. That's a pretty significant barrier.
In the sense that their heart will keep beating or the like, sure. But that's like saying we shouldn't treat, say, someone in agonizing chronic pain because they could, in principle, live without it.
Ten years ago, I wouldn't have transitioned, because it would have been a complete death sentence for my professional life. You see more people transitioning because it's possible to do so without wrecking the remainder of your life, and because they're exposed to the fact that it's a thing you even can do. I stumbled onto it almost by accident.
n/a bluemagic124 2017-05-16
Way to identify the established narrative.
n/a Chel_of_the_sea 2017-05-16
I grew up in an extremely conservative household that most certainly did not encourage anything remotely LGBT related. Didn't stop me from going to sleep dreaming of waking up a girl every night for months at age 8.
n/a bluemagic124 2017-05-16
Nice anecdote. I guess that completely and unquestionably validates transgenderism.
n/a Chel_of_the_sea 2017-05-16
If you have any statistical evidence to suggest otherwise, do feel free to post it. If not, I'll direct you to my post, elsewhere in this thread, providing pretty extensive citations that supporting trans folk and treatments appropriate to them is a good idea.
n/a bluemagic124 2017-05-16
Gonna take more than some suicide statistics to convince me that mutilating your genitals is a good idea.
n/a Chel_of_the_sea 2017-05-16
Setting aside that transition is not surgery for a minute - what exactly would it take to convince you that it's the best option for people who feel a certain way?
n/a bluemagic124 2017-05-16
Does gender reassignment surgery not fall under transition?
I've yet to see a scientific test for transgenderism. If all we're going off of is feelings to determine if transgenderism is right for an individual, I think that's an unscientific basis for making such an extraordinary leap. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
n/a Chel_of_the_sea 2017-05-16
It is one part of transition, but not all of it.
In a diagnostic sense? There isn't one - but there's also not any objective diagnostic test for whether or not someone's in pain, either, and as a general rule if someone says "fuck, shit, ow, that hurts!" we don't go "prove it".
It's the basis we have, and it produces good results. If we find a better one in the future, great, but it's what we have right now.
On a philosophical level, maybe, and if you want to get into the philosophical backing I'm willing to do that. But medicine is about what works as of our best current knowledge, not what might or might not work in the distant future.
For example, I had a perfectly standard surgery last year to remove a dysfunctional organ (nothing related to being trans). It's the most common surgery performed in the US, and no one really objects to it being the gold standard for treating the condition I had just because maybe at some point in the future we might be able to fix that organ instead of removing it.
n/a bluemagic124 2017-05-16
Supposing this is true, you're comparing apples and oranges. Pain is a fundamental sensation (sense of touch), whereas gender identity is a matter of perception. There's no question as to whether you see, feel, hear, smell, or taste something; it's either something you're currently experiencing or not. There is question as to whether what you're experiencing is one thing or another (i.e. perception is questionable).
Okay, then until we can go off more than just feelings, I will remain skeptical. It's a shaky basis, and the quality of the results is dubious.
Yes, but when what works best produces poor results, it calls into question the efficacy of the treatment and the entire theory that it rests on (transitioning and transgenderism respectively).
I personally question any treatment that instead of encouraging someone to embrace who they are, it tells them to try to change something that's unchangeable and expect everyone to go along with it. No matter how many hormone injections, surgeries, or lifestyle changes someone makes, a trans woman will never be a woman beyond a nominal respect; they'll still have Y chromosomes and will never be capable of child birth.
That's what I suspect is part of the reason why the process is unsuccessful; it's because people know that only superficially are they changing themselves, and they aren't actually becoming the opposite gender.
n/a rbslilpanda 2017-05-16
Bravo!
n/a Chel_of_the_sea 2017-05-16
I'm not sure how you justify the distinction. The distress I felt at a low level my whole life, and the absolute bliss I felt when I finally figured out what'd been bothering me all those years, is (at least to me) on the same level of sensation as discomfort, embarrassment, or anger.
I might, on a philosophical level, be wrong about why I feel what I do (though obviously I don't think that I am). I don't think I can be wrong about the sensations I experience in and of themselves, and even if I could be, I think you'd need extreme evidence to claim that I am.
The quality of the results is not at all dubious.
Satisfaction rates in the high 90s, a 75% drop in depression (also known as 'better than a lot of straight up antidepressants'), extremely rare regrets, and physiological stress markers normalizing is "poor results"? Just because you can't get a group that has been massively targeted for a trait they can't escape down to 100% as healthy as the general public doesn't mean you got 'poor' results, it just means you didn't get perfect ones.
Trans people are embracing who they are. It's you who's trying to tell them that they can't be that because their body doesn't look a particular way.
Sex is, to a fair extent, changeable. Gender doesn't need to be.
Women who have Y chromosomes who aren't capable of childbirth and who no one seriously objects to calling women might want a word about that.
Ah yes, the old "they secretly know I'm right and just won't admit it!" approach.
I know that I can't fully change every aspect of my sex. And yes, that sucks! I'd really like to be able to carry a child. But the changes I could make have been literally the best decision I have ever made. I smile nearly every single morning when I see myself in the mirror because I see me there, not a mask I can't take off.
n/a rbslilpanda 2017-05-16
"For people who feel a certain way"... I'm just wondering... If I felt that I was born a tiger and needed to somehow get surgery to make myself look more like a tiger, tail, tattoos of stripes all over my body, etc., would that be seen as a mental disorder, or just what makes me feel good? There is no distinction.
n/a firelock_ny 2017-05-16
We have a reasonably good developmental model for how a human brain develops as masculine or feminine, and even a reasonably good set of theories for how this development might not end up matching that human's sex chromosomes or development of external sex-linked characteristics.
What's your theory for how a human brain could develop as a tiger?
n/a rbslilpanda 2017-05-16
It's all in their heads, like the people who think that deep down they are supposed to be a cat or whatever, it doesnt matter if it's every going to happen or not, its the same premise, they want to be something that they shouldn't be. A male brain born into a female body? Do you really think it's so separate that they can get switched up like that? Could you show me the theories that you speak of? I get that you don't see how someone could think they would actually turn into a tiger because we are humans, but isn't it just as weird for a man to think he's really a woman deep down? If the body is fine, then it's a disorder of the brain that makes them think these things, both are abnormal and are caused by something going wrong in the developing fetus.
n/a firelock_ny 2017-05-16
You seriously don't see any difference between someone having a human body (regardless if it's male or female) and someone being a tiger? That's a bit ridiculous.
n/a rbslilpanda 2017-05-16
Not when you extrapolate the core issue at hand, the desire to physically change the body to reflect how the person feels they are in their mind.
n/a firelock_ny 2017-05-16
Let me give you the real core issue:
If a person develops a brain that's more comfortable exposed to estrogen and in a body that has feminine physical characteristics, why is it your business if they expose themselves to estrogen and develop feminine physical characteristics?
You're attempting to muddy things by bringing up tigers and disbelieving that there can be such a thing as a masculine or feminine brain - which science doesn't seem to have any problems with, by the way - but when we get right down to it, why does it matter to you how trans people treat their condition?
n/a Chel_of_the_sea 2017-05-16
There are, in my mind, three distinctions that sort of headline it.
One is that it's both plausible and to some extent demonstrated that gender identity is the result of the physical differentiation of particular parts of the brain. There is no reasonable mechanism for "species identity" to occur in the same way.
Two, trans people are generally not trying to carve an entirely new niche in society, simply asking to be treated as you already do treat millions of others.
And three, and probably most importantly, there's a difference between "feels good right now" and "supports long-term emotional well-being". It is, at this point, well-demonstrated that gender transition is the latter, not just the former (in fact in the short term transition can be extraordinarily stressful). Comparable evidence does not exist for your hypothetical tiger-man.
n/a DoYouEvenBrewBro 2017-05-16
anything identity related is meant to create the inability to create ways to group up (as in if you dont identify with anything, you dont have a reason to fight)
n/a rbslilpanda 2017-05-16
I think there's definitely an agenda with this movement. I think part of it, is that the people suffering with this mental disorder (as it is still a mental disorder in the DSMV, currently) are being given this by our environment, our bodies endocrine systems are being messed with to the point that we don't know whether or not we're a boy or girl and which gender we should mate with. This whole thing about the LGTBQ community is that it has always been in humanity, just not to this extent. The fact that we are being told and demanded to accept these people and their lifestyles is what has me questioning the whole thing. I think that TPTB are trying in every way to destabilize the American family and our values. I mean, look at a handful of families and check out how little time they spend together, for one. I feel that by continuing to change what a family looks like will in the end, be our downfall. I just don't see how we can be a strong country if we are so pulled apart by TPTB trying to get us to fight and accept everyone, it just doesnt work, un-organicly. We're being pushed into these things, and that just will make people push back, and end in in-fighting. Eh, that's some of my muddled thoughts, thanks for bringing the topic up!
n/a Chel_of_the_sea 2017-05-16
To be clear: being trans per se is not classified as a disorder anymore. Being distressed about it, to an extent sufficient to disrupt daily function, is.
n/a rbslilpanda 2017-05-16
And didn't we all just say that the reason for people wanting to do this to their bodies is BECAUSE of their mental ambush about not looking how they feel???????????
n/a Chel_of_the_sea 2017-05-16
Yes, but a post-transition trans person may no longer feel distress. They are still trans but do not have (clinical) gender dysphoria post-transition.
n/a rbslilpanda 2017-05-16
You are going in circles because you really don't have a valid point. There is distress before the transition, that is the mental disorder, not after they have the transition, duh. We're not trying to hate on trans people, ok, we're just trying to say that it's not a normal thing to feel that you are in the wrong gender's body, it's a mental disorder which makes the person feel negatively. I think its something that should be dealt with in a different manner, rather than completely mutilate their genitals and get crazy hormones and get plastic surgery, that's frickin nuts to a normal person, completely crazy, which it is, it's the person's brain not acting normally, we shouldn't go along with someone who is experiencing this disorder and let them carve themselves a new physical identity when they know they will never actually be a woman or a man. I've been very interested in this topic for a big portion of my life, and have been mostly supportive of the changes trans people wish to make, but recently I've had to re-evaluate what is really going on in our society, why it seems so much more prevalent and why our govt is making the rest of us HAVE to be ok with their choices, that's what has me scratching my head. Why are we allowing/supporting people who are suffering with this mental disorder to take drastic measures such as to mangle their bodies?
n/a Chel_of_the_sea 2017-05-16
And you base this on what, aside from a knee-jerk 'that sounds crazy' response? Again, where is your evidence?
The only one of those I've done is 'get crazy hormones', by which you mean 'take HRT that is already given to post-menopausal women'.
Then why does every major medical organization say otherwise, along with the overwhelming majority of the many trans people who have transitioned and been satisfied with it?
There's that "oh, they secretly know I'm right, they just won't admit it!" approach again.
And yet, you have a remarkable lack of any supporting evidence.
Ah, and here's the "oh no, I don't have a problem with X, it's just that X is part of a conspiracy to destroy society".
No one is making you 'have to be okay' with anything. Judging by your posting history, you seem to live in the US, where it is currently legal in exactly 100% of jurisdictions not just to think what you want of trans people, but also to stand up and say as much. In fact, a party that explicitly opposes trans rights in all forms is currently in unified control of the US government. So...yeah.
Sing it with me! ♫ Because it wooooooooooooooooooorks ♫
n/a rbslilpanda 2017-05-16
I bet I could find research that says to the contrary, because it's so varied among individuals, which I'll check into, but you are also very biased, being a trans person, so you are very defensive of people who talk about this subject, I get it. But try to take a view from the outside and see how it might seem, at least, yes in America, where it does seem like the govt and Hollywood and advertising are trying to swing us to view the trans person's condition as normal and a large part of humanity, which it isn't, but it is growing. I personally feel that we are being given hormone interfering chemicals through food, air, medications, etc. that might be producing this effect more than previously. I really want to research this, as I said it interests me to figure out what's going on in the brain.
n/a Chel_of_the_sea 2017-05-16
Please continue, Governor.
Having a stake is not the same thing as presenting a biased case. I do have a stake, to be sure, but the facts I present are accurate as best I understand them. I didn't transition until I was confident of that case, so if anything my transition is just putting my lifestyle choices where my mouth is.
By which you mean "ignore the data and assume all change must be conspiratorial decay by default"?
...the government that just rolled back trans protections and is currently run by a party who quite clearly does not accept trans people as a group?
Is very liberal, yes. No debate that your typical Hollywood type does indeed want you to accept trans people. I just don't think that's part of an evil scheme to stop people from breeding.
Depends on the ad.
No, they're trying to get you to view trans people as generally normal people who should not be targeted simply because they are trans.
Not sure what you're aiming for on that.
"Given" implies intent, which it doesn't seem like you have anything to really support. But "exposed to incidentally", sure - there's actually a fair amount of research on this, and it is plausible that it's involved to some extent. But I suspect that most of the rise is from increasing acceptance, given that it so sharply correlates with where people are or are not accepted for being trans.
n/a rbslilpanda 2017-05-16
I'm not going to be annoying like you and break down each word said, I'm telling you what I feel is happening and you're going to contradict it, so fun, anyway have fun being a guy girl.
n/a Chel_of_the_sea 2017-05-16
So "actually respond to points", then?
It's almost like your feelings are leading you to a false conclusion.
n/a rbslilpanda 2017-05-16
No, you think because you're a trans person, you know everything about it, and so you're just going to sit on your pedestal and tell everyone they're wrong for their beliefs and feelings. The fact is, that ya'll got some fucked up shit going on in your heads telling you to slice your penis open and flare it out to be a fucking vagina, that's fucking crazy, period!!! So I'm done with you and anything else you have to say, good job pushing people to not like you even more ;)
n/a Chel_of_the_sea 2017-05-16
Not at all. I think I know a lot about it because I've been having these discussions more or less every day for about half a decade now, and because I can back up my claims with dozens of studies.
Because they are wrong in their beliefs. Feelings don't turn on a dime, I know that, but all I'm asking is that people try to work on them.
So basically no, you don't actually have any data, you're just going "nope that's too crazy won't accept it bye".
By, what, refuting your terrible arguments point by point?
n/a rbslilpanda 2017-05-16
Did I don't have the time to go find fucking articles proving my points or else I would. You don't provide any either, just your word, so why don't you enlighten me, eh? Show me ALL your data so I may educate my ignorant mind. I have a masters in MFT, background in psych, so lets hear it! I also have my own personal beliefs and opinions that may not gel with current research, and as research is fluid and always evolving, whose to say. I don't know man, I'm not mad at ya'll, I think if you ask any person who has this affliction, if they'd rather be without it, I think they'd say yes. So with that said, I think we're being given this disorder, and doesn't that make you mad? I feel the same about other mental disorders as well as physical illnesses such as Autism spectrum, ADHD, and other hormone disrupting disorders. I have my opinions on why and stuff, it's rabbit hole stuff, so I'll just try to do more research on the whole thing, never said I was done learning.
n/a Chel_of_the_sea 2017-05-16
I've provided plenty of links in this thread. If you'd like some on any particular topics aside from that, just let me know.
Ah yes, the "provide citations so I can dismiss them as 'well science has been wrong before'" gambit.
I mean...no, because I don't think we are being 'given' it.
n/a rbslilpanda 2017-05-16
Well I do, so that's it man, we don't have the same opinions, that's ok, I'm moving on.
n/a rbslilpanda 2017-05-16
Ran across this Bill Nye video which says a lot for how the re-programming is going here in America...Make a childhood science-trusted guy come back and try to drop some "new" knowledge on us to spread to everyone else, younger and older. I have no words for what I see in this video, I cannot believe that I'm supposed to show this to kids! How very un-scientific of him to present info this way! I have absolutely zero respect for this guy anymore, for more than just this though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wllc5gSc-N8&feature=youtu.be
n/a Chel_of_the_sea 2017-05-16
That video is, no doubt, a travesty, and I lost a tremendous amount of respect for Nye when I saw it. You're not going to get any argument from me there. As one of the comments puts it:
The thing is, being really stupid, trashy, or over the top doesn't make you wrong. I can think that social liberals sometimes take stupid paths to promoting a viewpoint without thinking the viewpoint itself is incorrect, because my opinion of a statement isn't based on whether or not I like the people saying it.
n/a rbslilpanda 2017-05-16
I feel ya, but the fact is that it's out there being done, ya know? Do you get where I'm coming from, like really? I'm not hating on the community or the individuals, I'm upset with the system I believe is sabotaging our bodies and minds, through various methods, not just sexuality based. Think of how many people are getting depressed/anxious and have to take meds that are creating side effects that are damaging our minds and bodies. Think of the GMOs and Round Up that's being sprayed on our foods and injected at the cellular level , that is most definitely having an impact on our minds and bodies, as well as other animals such as bees, amphibians, and other small fauna. I think this kind of in-fighing is what tptb want, they don't want us to come together DESPITE our differences, they want us to hate each other for them, not realizing they are the ones creating the fights. It's deep, for me, it goes deep, so I'll keep trying to find truths and keep the dialogue open, you do the same ;)
n/a rbslilpanda 2017-05-16
No, you think because you're a trans person, you know everything about it, and so you're just going to sit on your pedestal and tell everyone they're wrong for their beliefs and feelings. The fact is, that ya'll got some fucked up shit going on in your heads telling you to slice your penis open and flare it out to be a fucking vagina, that's fucking crazy, period!!! So I'm done with you and anything else you have to say, good job pushing people to not like you even more ;)
n/a cyphrrr 2017-05-16
couldn't have said it better myself
n/a 456com 2017-05-16
What if? I thought this was common knowledge by now.
n/a gummybearsoda 2017-05-16
Be ready for the brainwashed politically correct downvotes. Anyway I'm glad you're speaking on this topic.
n/a cyphrrr 2017-05-16
bring it on, I don't mind having a good argument as it strengthens my viewpoints, and If I'm completely wrong then I might just learn something new!
n/a gummybearsoda 2017-05-16
Transgenderism is also a way to destroy God's temple.
1 Corinthians 3:17 - If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy that person; for God's temple is sacred, and you together are that temple.
n/a cyphrrr 2017-05-16
Religion on /r/conspiracy? prepare your anus
n/a gummybearsoda 2017-05-16
The elites practice satanism, it makes sense that they'll be against be God of the Bible, so this is relevant. Not everybody is godless
n/a cyphrrr 2017-05-16
fair enough
n/a Cdwollan 2017-05-16
Remodeling is not destroying
n/a ChronicHerpes 2017-05-16
Well it's not doing a very good job is it
n/a lavendula13 2017-05-16
The changes to population would be so small, overall, as to be virtually meaningless. Do the numbers yourself.
n/a cyphrrr 2017-05-16
right now, yes. But it concerns me that it is becoming more common.
n/a firelock_ny 2017-05-16
It's going from a few fractions of a percent of the population to a slightly larger fraction of a percent of the population. The change in birth rates caused by this is insignificant compared to the change caused by economic conditions.
n/a lavendula13 2017-05-16
I agree, but until the trend reaches 10 percent of population, it won't really affect population numbers.
n/a Jordough 2017-05-16
Reminds me of a conversation between doc and jingleballicks in sweet Thursday by john Steinbeck. One of them brings up homosexuality as a possible evolutionary method to pop control and the other brings up lemmings. I don't know myself it's interesting tho
n/a bluemagic124 2017-05-16
Nice anecdote. I guess that completely and unquestionably validates transgenderism.
n/a firelock_ny 2017-05-16
We have a reasonably good developmental model for how a human brain develops as masculine or feminine, and even a reasonably good set of theories for how this development might not end up matching that human's sex chromosomes or development of external sex-linked characteristics.
What's your theory for how a human brain could develop as a tiger?
n/a Chel_of_the_sea 2017-05-16
There are, in my mind, three distinctions that sort of headline it.
One is that it's both plausible and to some extent demonstrated that gender identity is the result of the physical differentiation of particular parts of the brain. There is no reasonable mechanism for "species identity" to occur in the same way.
Two, trans people are generally not trying to carve an entirely new niche in society, simply asking to be treated as you already do treat millions of others.
And three, and probably most importantly, there's a difference between "feels good right now" and "supports long-term emotional well-being". It is, at this point, well-demonstrated that gender transition is the latter, not just the former (in fact in the short term transition can be extraordinarily stressful). Comparable evidence does not exist for your hypothetical tiger-man.