Fuck em

Totally true. I believe at the time of Elsagate Youtube/Disney already sent shills to this sub and i personally encountered them today. They have no purpose other than to debunk Disturbing youtube videos. Won't tell names but i know who they are.

Exactly what inspired this post

Anyone who disagrees with you is definitely being paid to do so.

You're so right.

Merica

Where did he say that?

Oh, I get it, you just made it look like he said that to anyone reading. Touche'.

Seems to be a very good technique. Turn around what they are saying and ignore the context. I've noticed it a lot throughout reddit. It's as though to make them appear delusional or silly and is being used as a put down technique to discredit what people are saying.

What's Elsagate?

TIL what a shill is finally.. I didn't want to Google it.

I got a warning from a mod here for exposing a shill. It violates rule 10 to accusse someone of being a shill, apparent no matter how good your argument might be.

It is just that your argument and evidence must be irrefutable.

I don't get that impression. I think the rule probably came about because people got tired of the comment section getting filled up with accusations going both ways. So even though I've been warned myself to not do it, I can understand why people might get tired of seeing people debate about it. After all, so what if they are a shill, it's not like there is anything that can be done about it.

That is exactly why that rule came about. It was a complete mess. But back then there were only like 75k users or so. It would be nice if everyone refrained from shill accusations, except when it can really be proven. But personally, I think the message of this thread is worthy, if controversial. If for no other reason than the chilling effect it could have on potential forum agents.

it's not like there is anything that can will be done about it.

that is wide open to interpretation.

Honeypot confirmed, again.

I just caught your meaning with the honeypot. That is a funny idea, and would probably be especially funny to anyone that is actually familiar with me around here.

Hell, maybe it can be? I think all the shill accusations are as much of a problem as the actual shills. If the low effort "everyone that disagrees with me is a shill" kinda users were gone, would you object to that?

I think all the shill accusations are as much of a problem as the actual shills.

Then why encourage it? You're talking out of both sides of your mouth and it's not convincing to anyone!

Good. People throw around paid shill because they have nothing to fall back on. If you come into a thread to defend something that is against what everyone is going crazy about, you are called a shill and down voted. How is that a healthy conversation for a place that acts like it's the Pinnacle of free thought

Exactly. Refute what they are saying.if someone says 2+2=4 explain why it is wrong with proof, not calling the user shill.

Mods are right to encourage discussion and not just name calling and personal attacks

The point is to debate the actual content and not the user. Whether or not it's obvious they are a shill, calling someone a shill is a end of a discussion and not the beginning of one. If you truly believe they are astroturfing, compile your evidence and PM the mods, but don't make a public comment on it because that breaks the rule, and it's not going to push the discussion in any helpful direction.

What good would PMing a mod do? I don't think it breaks any rules to be a paid marketing employee.

The mods can decide if the person is shilling/trolling and ban them accordingly. Now they might not think your evidence is compelling enough, as simply disagreeing with someone isn't enough evidence.

It does break the rule that it is a form a trolling and legit trolling isn't allowed on the sub. It's not a Reddit wide rule, but for this sub.

Trolling and shilling are not the same. A shill is basically a paid marketing position, whereas a troll is simply trying to get reactions out of people. So a paid shill could be very polite and represent their company in a non-trolling manner.

Like when Bill Gates does an AMA, he's technically a shill for microsoft.

Like when Bill Gates does an AMA, he's technically a shill for microsoft.

I would disagree with this. First, as a shareholder (and I think no longer involved in operations at all), he's not really being paid by Microsoft. But even if he were, I wouldn't consider that to be shilling. At least in the traditional sense of the word, shill implies the person is paid but makes the appearance of having no financial connection.

So I wouldn't consider a PR person for Microsoft or any other company advocating their products or services to be a shill, but I would if it were a person providing a positive review without disclosing a financial arrangement.

Well said! Yeah shills try to blend in as "normal" and want to stay hidden.

I know what the difference is. Trolling and shilling are treated the same, that's why I said both.

Also if you looked at previous shill campaigns (Correct The Record), a lot of the shilling is actually just trolling. They can be the same thing in a way. I mean obvious shilling is the guy that only posts about how great Coke products are. Political shilling is usually trying to downplay (troll) certain narratives and only push other narratives.

For example, people that only post about one political party's problems, but then downplay/ignore their side's problems are usually shilling, but doing so with trolling tactics and mannerisms. However they could just be a political activist, but not a shill. Usually the burden of proof for shilling is pretty high, but trolling tactics are usually public and easy to see.

You cannot directly call anybody a shill. Thats rule 10.

Be very careful people. Shill accusations break rules and will be removed and the user may be banned if egregious.

However, there is nothing in the rules that says you can't prove it. Just remember, the burden of proof for this is going to be high. Like higher than most of what we generally accept as proof around here.

You should also try to keep your language as respectful as possible. You make a fantastic case against a guy and call him a "lying ugly motherfucker that should be hung" 20 times, you are just breaking a ton of rules, and you kill your own case on a technicality.

Do not take this as an invitation for witch hunting. And this is my personal interpretation of rules that anyone else is perfectly able to override.

Always remember treating one another with courtesy and respect is probably the most difficult thing for negative forum agents to emulate.

Peace

Mods encouraging users to walk the tightrope. Sounds like a honeypot to me.

Your comment is all the proof I need.

:)

there is nothing in the rules that says you can't prove it.

.

Do not take this as an invitation for witch hunting.

How many contradictions you gonna make here? I've reported your comment for breaking the very rules you're meant to uphold.

How am I doing on your personal tightrope?

I don't get the objection. This is a thread about a malfunctioning shill bot. I mean, really the only way you are going to be able to prove anything is in a situation like that. And even still, there is going to be a doubt as to whether they were just accidentally responding to the wrong thread.

I did not encourage anyone to break rules. I don't understand why you are defending the idea of forum sliding either. That is a very strange objection.

But personally, I think the message of this thread is worthy

.

if you suspect somebody is intentionally being destructive to a discussion or "Shilling", you can always check the account's post and comment history to see if there is a pattern. If there is, feel free to expose this with screen shots for the community to see. We should be doing this.

This is against the rules of this subreddit. You're encouraging users to break the same rules you're mean to uphold.

From the rules:

Accusing another user of being a troll or shill can be viewed as an attack, depending on context.

But maybe Rule 2 is the one you should best familiarize yourself with:

No accusations of rules violations in comments. Please report violations.

No accusations of rules violations in comments.

.

OP says - We should be doing this.

.

I say - This (hypothetical post from OP) is against the rules of this subreddit.

This OP opens up the door to rule 1 violations, rule 4 violations, RULE 5 big time, and rule 10. You going to remove this comment for a rule 2 violation? That's quite shady considering OPs topic.

Did I remove your comment? I am done here. Have a nice day.

You have a nice day too!

=)

👏✊👏

There are easier ways to out shills than overtly proving it as well. Play to the skeptical nature of this sub and be nice while doing it. Make sound arguments and don't pretend to know more than you do. The regulars here will see the same things you do.

I have seen a number of user handles come and go over time. They lose patience when it becomes obvious they are treading water.

At the same time, try to recognize the true believers. Not everyone who disagrees with you has an agenda.

Be kind to one another and don't torpedo your own account in an effort for a short term win in an argument. Live to fight another day...

Exactly. But always and forever if you don't respond to these people, they probably don't even get paid. You know they track all the comment metrics at HQ or whatever. If they go a few weeks without a single response to their commentary, I doubt they keep their job. And part of that job is tying regular well meaning people up in endless circular debates.

Excellent point. Some people will just go tit for tat to waste your time. It is also important to know when a conversation has ended, and the other person is using you as a soapbox to push their agenda.

I was thinking about a rule idea the other day where if someone clearly indicates they do not want to debate any further and users keep going at them, that can be considered a kind of harassment or trolling.

Crazy idea?

It sounds good on the surface, but it sounds like it could be very subjective to enforce. It might just make more work for you.

I had a similar issue the other day in the thread about the mars rover being fake, where I refused to take a side pretty much, and one user took that as me clearly being opposed to their stance. It didn't bother me, but I could see how it might someone else.

I simply said "I don't pretend to know", and they took that as a slight that either they WERE pretending to know or that I was disagreeing with them. It reminded me of the kind of arguments I would get into with girlfriends in high school.

where I refused to take a side pretty much, and one user took that as me clearly being opposed to their stance

That is the story of my life. I don't actually have much of a serious opinion on very many things. I just like to play with subjects intellectually.

I was thinking about a rule idea the other day where if someone clearly indicates they do not want to debate any further and users keep going at them, that can be considered a kind of harassment or trolling.

Horrible idea. You have too much power to control narratives as is.

Haha yeah I imagine it wouldn't be dissimilar to no audio/video of press conferences and giving info Wars a press pass.

If you continue to follow me around to comment chains unrelated to ours, I will construe that as harassment. Look, I want to be fair with you. Especially because we are in something of a dispute here. But don't take that desire for fairness as an open invitation to break any rules you want just so I react and you can call me out for abuse. Not happening.

you continue to follow me around to comment chains unrelated to ours

It's the same comment section of the same post. Are users only allowed to engage you when you see fit? I haven't seen a rule about that. Mind explaining yourself?

You are a mod and you made a horrible suggestion. It is my right to comment unless you have rules in place I haven't seen. Please show me those rules.

I will not be silenced for voicing an opinion that breaks no rules.

+1

link to comment. That was an awesome and clever investigation of a very real problem we have. Maybe people wouldn't call you a shill if you tried to be just a touch less contentious than you are with the community? I dunno, that would be a signal to me.

I notice you bring up my comment, but not the ones I removed. Ok

I mean, if the mods are readily available to help people fish for IP addresses, how can users who go against the dominant narrative feel like speech isn't controlled here. That is crazy to me. You basically said that my controversial standpoint causes people to call me a shill. I'm wondering if it has anything to do with emboldening people to actively hunt for people they think are bots. And why do they think they are bots? Because they don't think pizzagate is real and refuse to bow down to the fash.

Remember this little escapade you were involved with?

Good thing you guys weren't able to get anything other than IPs belonging to reddit.

Op has an interesting post history himself. Him and /u/margaritavilllll often show up in threads together and their accounts were created 32 minutes apart!

https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/6elowc/i_figured_out_why_the_russia_conspiracy_was/dib8dqc?context=1

Holy shit the person we needed to look out for was the one warning us not to trust anyone... What a mindfreak

Your last post was 187 days ago

Lol best bust ever. I've been expecting him to delete this post out of embarrassment.

The op needs to realize that you shouldn't try to act righteous with dirty hands.

He knows I've probably archived it.

This guys been at it for weeks.

http://archive.is/Z8b6f

http://archive.is/WX53d#55%

http://archive.is/XgO7z#90%

http://archive.is/5Eed4#50%

WTF. OP explain yourself!

I second this!

Im away for like 15 minutes and I come back to this bullshit? What the hell is going on...No im not taking the post down, my message stands. Holy fucking character assassination...

Look at my post history, what about my post history is destructive to this sub? This is insane dude..

I think this post raises some good questions, but I also think /u/margaritavilll is you judging by the nearly identical grammar and punctuation habits.

Do you have any rebuttals to what /u/IneffableQuality claims? Other than calling them insane...

You are a pedophile. Do you have any rebuttals? Debunk my claim.

Maybe that accusation would be relevant if there was an alt account that was 32 minutes older than mine, that posted on pedo-friendly subs and had similar writing habits. Like some equivalent evidence that /u/IneffableQuality provided on /u/zepheryytyy.

Pedo friendly subs

Like r/Pizzagate? Or r/pedogate?

What Pedo friendly sub are you talking about?

There used to pedo-friendly subs on reddit, like pedofriends. Are you new here?

Im away for like 15 minutes and I come back to this bullshit?

How's it feel to be accused of something, just like you were advocating?

... And

They're so brave to delete their alt

Can someone explain why any of that has any bearing on his message? If he literally just told you to check his own post history where you would inevitably see what this guy posted - surely he knew it would happen.

So how the fuck does any of that have a negative effect on his message? Don't we all benefit?

lol, for a conspiracy sub, people around here critically think for about 3 seconds.

A lot of the same people who harp on judging a post/leak/article by its content and not by its source seem to really enjoy digging through post histories.

My take- if you encounter someone enough to recognize their username and they're not contributing positively to your experience on the site, you block 'em and move on.

What about concern trolls? Because I see a bunch of concern trolls here all the time they usually start their posts with phrases such as , "Friendly reminder"or "an open letter to" or something along those lines. Do you know what I mean ? It's like people think that if they post all day and night non stop they are some kind of hero or activist. When in fact people look at that like damn does this person have a life or is this their life , if this is their life I feel really bad for them and hope they get better, sending positive vibes to hose poor people

"Concern trolling" is a dumb term...

So people who are trying to restore good conversation in their subs are called shills now? That's so stupid

It is what it is man , and you know damn well they exist. And you also know damn well there are users here that feel this is their personal sub and new users have no place here . It's not bots down voteing you people, its people who truly believe this is their sub and they want to keep it that way.

you know damn well

Your negative attitude gives you away. You're trying too hard to form a narrative. You do that a lot, which I confirmed by looking at your account.

See how easy that is! 👍

I have 17 comments TOTAL idiot and like 4 of them are in regards to this thread ,the others have no negativity whatsoever. I told you yesterday to fuck off and I'll tell you again today, mind your business , stop trolling , harassing and reporting me because you disagree or are holding a grudge against me , wtf

You have at least one alt account you use to boost your own content.

What the hell is this lol? The irony of calling me a shill on a post that is to hold shills accountable...

No one is calling you a shill, they are suspecting you of using Alt accounts.

Most users that reach a certain level of karma will use an alt account to argue , fight , name call and be disruptive so they don't ruin that precious karma they have accumulated on their main account. We should call them coward accounts instead of alts. Then you have users that have several accounts because every time they open their fucking mouth around here and disagree with the narrative/s of the week they get banned . But mainly coward account is what I see , why do think there are so many new accounts lately?

oh yeah karma, i forgot people cared about that.

Lmao dude you aren't hiding it very well

Why is everybody attacking me ? Just because I posted this?

Please stop pretending you don't know about the allegations made at you by the top comment of this thread

The comment you just quoted? that was recognition of the allegations my thick friend.

but WHY. ? You guys are making yourselves look bad, by attacking the guy who is raising a legitimate concern regarding the influx of shills in this sub. You're showing your hands by doing so...

No, for the hypocrisy of using alt accounts to manipulate your own karma.

Dude who gives a FUCK about karma! The information is important. Nobody on this sub cares about karma. Karma is like Facebook likes, it's imaginary validation.

I get more validation when I get backlash from shills than fucking "karma"...that's how I know I'm on the right track.

lol wow. You're literally doing what you accuse others of doing. Manipulation of karma on here is the same as trying to control information. You haven't denied the accusations yet. So why would you be manipulating karma if you don't care about the karma itself? You're doing it to control the conversation, to control the information.

Ok this is ridiculous. You have no proof at all of what you are saying? Can we stop this lmao...you're speaking to me as if I'm on trial. Peace out brotha.

Not always, but often people make the loudest accusations about things they themselves are guilty of.

Ah, the golden rule of 'He Who Smelt It, Dealt It'.

If I'm not mistaken the irony would only come into play if you WERE a shill. Just saying

What if the pattern is that the user is in this forum but is always arguing against the conspiracy theory being discussed?

I hope you're ready to remove a lot more comments of people accusing everyone of being shills.

Let's see if users have a particular patterns...

Here are links to my comments where I call him out and prove he's a liar, and he still claims my post "only proves him right."

Hmmm... avoids debate and avoids posting proof for claims made...

So they're a shill?

Then /u/CelineHagbard will ban you.

Golly gee, one mod encourages bad behaviour and the other mod cleans up that bad behaviour.

Wish I knew the term used for this nefarious activity...

Great idea op if you want to get banned

From /r/conspiracy moderator /u/mastigia

there is nothing in the rules that says you can't prove it. Just remember, the burden of proof for this is going to be high. Like higher than most of what we generally accept as proof around here.

It's another honeypot.

Please refrain from responding to any of my posts. I do not care about your opinions.

When you make a post I'll not comment on it.

When you make a comment I have every right to respond. Reddit TOS and all

makes post encouraging others to call out shills, describing their own account, and doesn't mention that shill accusations are forbidden in this sub.

Thats a bold strategy cotton, let's see how it pays off for OP

ALL OF YOU NEED TO SHUT THE FUCK UP ALREADY!!! (Except for ineffableQuality , fuckyourselfe and mastigia they're cool)

Lol that's funny ...

Thank you for this post. That is about as simple and basic as it can be, check their history and if you see a pattern call their ass out. If they seem like a normal user who is just trying to debate then debate.

That's all I'm saying. And I got shat on and attacked. Go figure...

This is an attempt at a honeypot i believe, tread lightly.

Yea no...

Removed.

Don't do what the OP is suggesting, please, as it contravenes Rule 10 of this subreddit.

If you have found compelling evidence that specific users/accounts are being paid to push an agenda then message the mods directly.

Didn't the other mod say it's not illegal to prove a shill is a shill?

I edited my comment to clarify. Proving someone is a shill is very difficult, and if the mods aren't convinced by the evidence, the accuser commits a Rule 10. Shill accusations are incredibly easy to make, and notoriously difficult to prove - that's why we don't allow such accusations.

Grow up.

What's with the obsession of protecting abd maintaining this rule above all others?

Because otherwise it would just be everyone calling everyone they don't like or don't agree with them a shill. Be nothing but the finding nemo seagulls going "shill! Shill! Shill!"A

TIL everyone on Reddit is a shill 🤣

I just caught your meaning with the honeypot. That is a funny idea, and would probably be especially funny to anyone that is actually familiar with me around here.

Hell, maybe it can be? I think all the shill accusations are as much of a problem as the actual shills. If the low effort "everyone that disagrees with me is a shill" kinda users were gone, would you object to that?

From the rules:

Accusing another user of being a troll or shill can be viewed as an attack, depending on context.

But maybe Rule 2 is the one you should best familiarize yourself with:

No accusations of rules violations in comments. Please report violations.

I second this!

Im away for like 15 minutes and I come back to this bullshit? What the hell is going on...No im not taking the post down, my message stands. Holy fucking character assassination...

Look at my post history, what about my post history is destructive to this sub? This is insane dude..

Yea no...

You are a pedophile. Do you have any rebuttals? Debunk my claim.

... And

Can someone explain why any of that has any bearing on his message? If he literally just told you to check his own post history where you would inevitably see what this guy posted - surely he knew it would happen.

So how the fuck does any of that have a negative effect on his message? Don't we all benefit?

lol, for a conspiracy sub, people around here critically think for about 3 seconds.