There is the star and crescent found with Baphomet, and also Freemasonry, like the Shriners. The Star represents the male deity and the crescent represents the female deity.
The god of the Jews is quite possibly Saturn itself and Baphomet or any other version of Satan. It may vary depending on which organization we are talking about, there is also clear satanism in the church.
What you are saying about Christ makes no sense in any christian context.
Yeah the flag of Israel has the Star of Remphan, not the seven branched Menorah.
Lucifer is Latin Vulgate for the Hebrew title Light-Bringer which was a title given to Christ. According to the Gnostic texts, Pitas Sophia created the Demiurge. The Demiurge opposes Pitas Sophia and creates an inferior world, the material world where he rules over. His son Sabaoth realizes the truth, and becomes filled with the light of the true god Pitas Sophia, which greatly anger the Demiurge. Sabaoth brings the truth to humanity in an attempt to free them from the deception of the demiurge. There was a really amazing post here last week iirc explaining all of this in great detail. Ill see if I can find it.
I know that the tittle of Lucyfer is given to Christ, however him being the one who gives people knowledge of good and evil does not fit in any Christian sense, you are mixing things up.
The serpent in the garden told Adam and Eve to eat the apple. He said something like didn't Yahweh say you would die if you ate this, and yet you haven't. Yahweh then kicks them out of the garden. The Gnostics believed that this was Sabaoth.
Jehovah does not want man to know his origin or his great destiny. He forbids all contact with the higher world. He wants man to be a reflection of him, the creator, and not a reflection of the Supreme God. But man did wake up, and he did become aware of good and evil. How did he manage to do this? The Serpent of temptation in Eden fed him the forbidden fruit which opened his eyes. According to Gnostics this Serpent is Lucifer, the Messenger of Light. This is the meaning of the word Lucifer: Bearer of Light. Lucifer took the form of a serpent to wake man up. He is a Messenger of the Supreme God, the Unknowable God. He is a Messenger of the True God who came into this imperfect, inadequate and wretched world to wake up and liberate man, to show him his true situation and what his great destiny could be like. For this reason, those who follow the orders of the creator god consider the serpent to be something malicious and satanic and in all this confusion liken it with satan.
On the other hand, Gnostics see the Serpent Lucifer as a saviour, someone who came to save man, a Messenger of the True God. This Serpent of Enlightenment which brought Gnosis, Gnostic truth which allows the authentic and true nature of things to be seen in this world of confusion, came to liberate man. Lucifer is the true liberator of man. He came to liberate man from the tyranny of Yahve, from the tyranny of the creator god. He brought the real knowledge that in itself can free man and help him to escape from this satanic world and return to the world from which he came.
This Serpent is, for Gnostics, the Serpent of Salvation, the Serpent which opened the eyes of man, which offered him the apple of emancipation to help him wake up and free himself from this world of misery and impure matter.
This is why the Old Testament god is destroying things and punishing everyone. Yet Christ comes with a message of love and truth to heal people.
Yeah, but I was saying the Catholic Church has been worshipping the Mystery Babylon religion of Nimrod. I highly recommend William Cooper's Mystery Babylon series. Walter Veith also has some good videos. I just think the Catholic Church has gone back to worshipping the Golden Calf, $$$, instead of God. When Martin Luthor wrote his thesis, and people had actual access to the word of God, it was an attempt to escape the corruption.
I think the people we are discussing are not Christians. They have perverted the Christian religion and have made good to be evil and evil to be good. This is what Freemasonry does, as well as the Jesuits and the Knights Templar.
I don't disagree nor agree with you. We don't know what it would be like. Perhaps we could have went a more philosophical route and became more enlightened.
Claiming that Lucifer is Christ is falling into the deception of Satan. Lucifer was one of God's angels, the most brilliant, smartest angel of them all. He was the light-bearer of the garden of eden. Until he deceived Adam and Eve for power over man.
“Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor” (Ezekiel 28:17)
Satan was cast out of heaven and found power on earth after he deceived Adam and Eve. Now he, and the fallen angels are now known as demons (Revelation 20:2) deceive as many humans as they can. Peter warns to, “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour” (1 Peter 5:8).
‘He’ is the beast often depicted as a ‘rampant lion’ whose minions became the ‘in-organic’ Archons that were supposedly ‘birthed from the chaos caused by Sophia’s ‘fall through the Pleroma’ (the source of all-that-exists).
As John Lash writes in his book, Not in His Image;
“And Sophia desired to cause the thing that had no innate spirit of its own to be formed into a likeness and rule over primal matter and over all the forces she had precipitated. So there appeared for the first time a ruler out of chaos, lion-like in appearance, androgynous, having an exaggerated sense of power within him, and ignorant of whence he came to be.” (The Apocryphon of John)
"Claiming that Lucifer is Christ is falling into the deception of Satan." Right. So certain groups have fallen for the deception of Satan. The Freemasons, Catholic Church, Jesuits, Knights Templar, Luciferians, etc.
You're mixing up your entities quite a bit, with not much rhyme or reason as to why. The "serpent" was incarnated Sophia (the original Eve, too), who had the ability to take different forms. According to the myth, she took the forms of Eve, a serpent, and a tree, at different times. She was the one responsible for waking up Adam, convincing him to eat from the tree. Certainly not Lucifer, as he's portrayed in the Bible. There isn't even a single mention of Lucifer or Satan in The Fall story of Genesis. Only the serpent.
Christ is his own separate person, according to the same stories, and it's never even hinted at that he's Satan. He's the embodiment of the Original Man, who came before the demiurge, and is the template from which we we're designed. Not Satan. Not Lucifer. "Human."
John Lash says some weird stuff, and makes some bizarre claims, for an "expert" in gnosticism. The most striking example I can recall is claim that the demiurge didn't create the world, when the nag hammadi origin myths say clearly and repeatedly that he did exactly that, with the help or other archons. They also created our physical bodies as traps for our light, soul, whatever.
I'm not sure why you're trying to conflate gnosticism with luciferianism. They're very different, and your claims here reak of poisoning the well, and creating guilt by association.
Well, both isms are pretty broad, and have a wide variety of beliefs under their umbrella. I think the main difference is that luciferians follow a "being" to salvation, who is supposedly trying to help, fight yaweh, other stuff, etc, while gnosis is more about knowing our own divine inner light, and achieving gnosis through our own personal pursuit of truth.
A person could debate the similarities and differences for days, but I think it distracts from the giant joke, which Luciferianism is. Its namesake is based on a mistranslated verse from Isaiah, which wrote about the king of Babylon, calling him the "morning star, son of dawn" (lucifer, in Latin), and how he "fell" (was conquered). There is literally no being known as Lucifer before early Christian history. He's basically a "modern" invention, based on a mistranslation, which developed it's own mythos in recent centuries.
I can see the use of Lucifer as an archetype, sure. But I doubt that many people who believe in the entity Lucifer even know what "lucifer" came from.
Here's an article I just googled up, which sums it up nicely.
No problem. I'm not Christian either, but I was raised in a fundamentalist Christian environment, so I've studied up on these topics quite a bit, even though much of it was done many years ago. I "lean" toward gnostic philosophies now, and have been studying it off and on for a year or so.
Satan is an actual character portrayed in the Bible. The book of Job has the best description. It refers to him as one of the sons of God, and shows him interacting with God, as a tormenter, sanctioned by God. If you're looking for Lucifer, you simply won't find "him", since he's just a misunderstanding of morning star, son of dawn. Isaiah 14:12, and a couple new testament references are all there is.
I see. I do read about religion out of personal interest, but this is one issue I never really delved into. I did not know about the Luciferians until last Fall.
Wasn't it the Knights Templar that learned that the serpent was "good" because he gave humans knowledge, and God is deceitful for lying to Adam? Maybe this is from Aleister Crowley. I cannot keep track of where I read things...
I'm not sure about the Knights Templar angle, on that. But the "good" serpent, and "lying god" actually are part of gnostic mythology. It's not Satan, Lucifer, or any other archon character, though. The idea is that "god" created our bodies to trap our souls, and didn't want us to know about good and evil, our true origins, etc. He wanted to keep us as animals, with base instincts. The serpent, aka Sophia/Eve was a higher being than "god" who came to show us the truth, good and evil, and show us what we are.
Some gnostics take it literally. Others consider it a myth/metaphor. I'm undecided. Gnostics and luciferians share the dislike of "god", but differ greatly on just about everything else.
And btw, the Nag Hammadi library is the best collection of ancient books for gnostic stuff. The three books that deal with creation myths are Nature of the Rulers, On the Origins of the World, and Apocryphon of John. They're a tough read, though. Fascinating stuff, but you have to read it a few times to sort out all the different characters in the stories.
They're only tough if you have a rudimentary knowledge of Early Christianity, Early Christian theology/Christological knowledge.
And most important of all, Greek Philosophical concepts. Once you understand those subjects to a decent degree. One can read Gnostic works fairly decently.
The toughest part is sorting through several beings with multiple names, shared names, and the rapid bouncing back and forth without announcement. The stories themselves aren't too bad, but the sorting out of who's who takes some familiarity with the subject, which you don't get, until.. you read the stories.
Then there's other important details that can be easily overlooked, like the fact that the apocryphon of John is written about psychical creation, not physical, which completely changes the nature of the story. I was so busy sorting out the details on the first couple readings, that I missed that one tiny switch of letters.
Exactly! That's why a decent understanding of hermeneutics and philology is a must when dealing with Gnostic material, or else you quickly find oneself getting confused.
I'm going through school for ancient philology, branching into Biblical scholarship.
Gnostic works and pseudopigrapha and logion are the name of the game, baby!
Praise be to Yahweh, the great I AM and the Eternal High Priest Christ Jesus! His love endures forever!
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
There was a man sent from God whose name was John. He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.
The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
(John testified concerning him. He cried out, saying, “This is the one I spoke about when I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”) Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
Your terminology is pretty wild, the word Christ means anointed one, the word Yahweh is a guess about what YHWH means, it's entirely possible that there is no spiritual being named Yahweh. The knowledge of good and evil is what God knows to be good and bad, without this knowledge we would have been content as naked gardeners living in harmony with nature in the direct presence of God who is holy and innocent. Salvation is the tree of life, it's not good to mix the two fruits because then you live forever in a cycle of shame, guilt and condemnation for always falling short of perfection. I would suggest that you question your beliefs regarding the gnostic texts you read and ask yourself if it's possible that they were written down as symbolic stories about the son of God and the Holy Spirit (Sophia). There was a huge attack on Christian texts in the early Church, we don't have any of the originals or even copies of the originals, so perhaps these authors found another way to deliver the truth through secret writings full of symbolism.
The Vatican destroyed the Library of Alexandria to conceal the early Christian works. Most of the disciples of Christ were burned or tortured. It's really sad because I think the original message of Christ is a beautiful thing that the world desperately needs, but the Church has used our desire to be with God as an opportunity to make $$$ and gain power. When the early Christians were rebelling against the Empire, Constantine made Christianity the official religion and then they decided on what was canon, which political ended the rebellions and brought the future of Christianity under the Empire's control. By Yahweh I mean the Old Testament god, which clearly delivers a different message from Christ, why would an all loving god destroy his people and curse them by casting them out of their homeland? Jesus teaches people how to be healed from within, at the root of their infirmaries, their spiritual problems. He doesn't demand sacrifices in blood and isn't jealous.
Emperor Theodosius is the one who made Nicene Christianity the official religion, I believe Constantine was long dead when this happened, his role was allowing Christians to worship without constantly facing persecution. This didn't end the rebellions because lots of people disagreed with what they came up with at Nicaea, not just the Arians.
I believe the gospel was preserved through Apostle John, he wrote a very mystical and gnostic-like gospel which contradicts the others in many places.
Could it be that there was a true God trying to lead them but the Jews kept going in different directions and worshiping false deities? I have been asking questions about the Old Testament, but there are two things that hold me back from going too far, it's that the Jewish nation is the one Jesus would have to be born into, if God just let them run free and wild then by the time Jesus was born the Jewish people would have been just as corrupt as the outside Gentile nations and the pagans. Another thing is that I believe there was a corrupt bloodline that produced giants, this forced God to send the Jews to fight wars against these hybrid humans before they destroyed the world, this would be the main reason behind the flood, to preserve the pure human race.
I believe the gospel was preserved through Apostle John, he wrote a very mystical and gnostic-like gospel
No... You have to really stretch the Gospel of John to get true Gnostic elements out of it. The belief that the Gospel of John might have been a Gnostic work has been thouroughly debunked since the 20th century. With the Nag Hammadi find giving us actual physical proof of Gnostic works.
Now the GoJ can be interpreted for an Arian cause, and even a Docetic cause. But not a Gnostic one.
You need to do more research into what constitutes a Gnostic work and what doesn't.
In case you haven't picked up by my Greek portmanteau name. I've a huge passion into Greek philosophy and Gnosticism as they take to each other naturally.
I own many, many volumes of work on the subject. And have studied extensively on it.
Lord Jesus is literally quoting Psalm 82.
Of course, you have to take into account the divine claim that Jesus actually makes in that passage in [John 10:30].
If it were just a matter of Him referring back to the passage to defend His use of the word "God," there might be some traction here. But that's not what's going on; He's referring to the psalm to draw a direct line to His unity with the Father.
And as an aside, the Hebrew word for "gods" used in Psalm 82 just translates to "Mighty ones". Not a deity in the traditional sense of the word.
A big reason why reading what the natively used words in an ancient text is. Makes it so important.
English translations of Koine Greek, and Hebrew are wooden, and not too good at times.
Lastly, a Gnostic work is anything that espouses obvious Gnostic beliefs and concepts.
To simplify it a heck of a lot: Basically, the Gnostic believes in acquiring special, mystical knowledge as the means for salvation. According to Gnostic beliefs, there is a Great God that is good and perfect, but impersonal and unknowable. The creator of the universe was actually a lesser deity—a cheap knock-off of the “true God”—who wanted to create a flawless material universe but botched the job due to ignorance. Instead of having a utopia, we ended up with a world infected with pain, misery, and intellectual and spiritual blindness; all matter is now corrupt and evil. However, when this lesser deity created man, he accidentally imbued humanity with a spark of the “true” God’s spirit, making man an inherently good soul trapped in the confines of an evil, material body.
Actually getting into the technical details of the used philisophical terms, and complexities that go into making Gnosticism could go on for quite sometime.
And the worst bit is that Gnosticism is a very large, and diverse religious spectrum.
So it's rather impossible to nail down what every single sect taught and believed. But the above statement is the majority of concepts that universally most sects shared with each other.
The Gospel of John does not fit any of those criteria. As I've already said, some scholars in the past speculated that the GoJ might be similar to what a Gnostic work might look like, but even they never went out on a limb and claimed it as such, merely speculated as we had no extant self-described Gnostic works in our possession until the Nag Hammadi Library find in 1945.
After that discovery, the Gnostic theory of the Gospel of John was entirely dropped and dismissed, as we finally found actual authentic Gnostic material.
Just because the Gospel of John has the highest Christology, and some mystical elements in it, does not a Gnostic work make.
Honestly, Wikipedia has a decent Gnosticism article. It's alright for a person completely unfamiliar with Gnosticism to get an Idea of it.
I'd also suggest reading "The Apocryphon of John"
if you want a perfect example of what a real Gnostic work is like.
If you want a decent book with a decent introduction it Gnosticism, check this book out
But that's not what's going on; He's referring to the psalm to draw a direct line to His unity with the Father.
What does it matter if he's quoting from Psalms, it's probably the most gnostic saying you ever read before, unity with the divine as a divine being, hard to get more gnostic than that in my opinion.
There are many other verses in John that is mystical knowledge that Christians do not talk about because they don't comprehend it:
“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father." John 14:12
I have read many of the Nag Hammadi texts; I understand that it's a different type of mystical knowledge clothed in symbolism, but the doctrines of Christ in John are equally as mysterious in their own way, where he is literally telling people they have to be "born again" spiritually.
The Vatican destroyed the Library of Alexandria to conceal the early Christian works. Most of the disciples of Christ were burned or tortured. It's really sad because I think the original message of Christ is a beautiful thing that the world desperately needs, but the Church has used our desire to be with God as an opportunity to make $$$ and gain power. When the early Christians were rebelling against the Empire, Constantine made Christianity the official religion and then they decided on what was canon, which political ended the rebellions and brought the future of Christianity under the Empire's control. By Yahweh I mean the Old Testament god, which clearly delivers a different message from Christ, why would an all loving god destroy his people and curse them by casting them out of their homeland? Jesus teaches people how to be healed from within, at the root of their infirmaries, their spiritual problems. He doesn't demand sacrifices in blood and isn't jealous.
44 comments
n/a Mengdim 2017-07-05
Wollupd like to hear more.
n/a pby1000 2017-07-05
Is this what you are looking for?
Lucifers New World Order, Exposing the Jesuits:
https://youtu.be/WJupxv9EiOY
33rd Degree Freemasonry and the Occult Exposed:
https://youtu.be/O88QZ_rDj7Q
There are many more by Walter Veith, if you are interested.
n/a LyleMillar 2017-07-05
Can confirm, Walter Veith is good.
n/a Mengdim 2017-07-05
Thank you, those were great.
n/a pby1000 2017-07-05
No problem!
n/a astralrocker2001 2017-07-05
Think about the millions of people who have died defending belief in a Parasitic Demiurge.
n/a Philomaeus 2017-07-05
What makes you think a Demiurge exists? Let alone a divine being/entity of any sort?
n/a astralrocker2001 2017-07-05
All roads lead to this. It is the biggest and most important conspiracy of all.
n/a Chokaholic 2017-07-05
I have come to realize this is true. I never in a million years imagined I'd say that.
n/a Todos1881 2017-07-05
Do you have links and shit...
n/a LyleMillar 2017-07-05
Here is a pic. And here is another. And again. Here too.
n/a pby1000 2017-07-05
There is the star and crescent found with Baphomet, and also Freemasonry, like the Shriners. The Star represents the male deity and the crescent represents the female deity.
n/a LyleMillar 2017-07-05
Yeah Isis the moon deity aka Allah aka Samiramis.
n/a mconeone 2017-07-05
Fish Nimrod? Jesus fish?
n/a HibikiSS 2017-07-05
The god of the Jews is quite possibly Saturn itself and Baphomet or any other version of Satan. It may vary depending on which organization we are talking about, there is also clear satanism in the church.
What you are saying about Christ makes no sense in any christian context.
n/a LyleMillar 2017-07-05
Yeah the flag of Israel has the Star of Remphan, not the seven branched Menorah.
Lucifer is Latin Vulgate for the Hebrew title Light-Bringer which was a title given to Christ. According to the Gnostic texts, Pitas Sophia created the Demiurge. The Demiurge opposes Pitas Sophia and creates an inferior world, the material world where he rules over. His son Sabaoth realizes the truth, and becomes filled with the light of the true god Pitas Sophia, which greatly anger the Demiurge. Sabaoth brings the truth to humanity in an attempt to free them from the deception of the demiurge. There was a really amazing post here last week iirc explaining all of this in great detail. Ill see if I can find it.
n/a downisupp 2017-07-05
would like to read the link
n/a LyleMillar 2017-07-05
I posted it in edit.
n/a HibikiSS 2017-07-05
I know that the tittle of Lucyfer is given to Christ, however him being the one who gives people knowledge of good and evil does not fit in any Christian sense, you are mixing things up.
n/a LyleMillar 2017-07-05
The serpent in the garden told Adam and Eve to eat the apple. He said something like didn't Yahweh say you would die if you ate this, and yet you haven't. Yahweh then kicks them out of the garden. The Gnostics believed that this was Sabaoth.
Jehovah does not want man to know his origin or his great destiny. He forbids all contact with the higher world. He wants man to be a reflection of him, the creator, and not a reflection of the Supreme God. But man did wake up, and he did become aware of good and evil. How did he manage to do this? The Serpent of temptation in Eden fed him the forbidden fruit which opened his eyes. According to Gnostics this Serpent is Lucifer, the Messenger of Light. This is the meaning of the word Lucifer: Bearer of Light. Lucifer took the form of a serpent to wake man up. He is a Messenger of the Supreme God, the Unknowable God. He is a Messenger of the True God who came into this imperfect, inadequate and wretched world to wake up and liberate man, to show him his true situation and what his great destiny could be like. For this reason, those who follow the orders of the creator god consider the serpent to be something malicious and satanic and in all this confusion liken it with satan.
On the other hand, Gnostics see the Serpent Lucifer as a saviour, someone who came to save man, a Messenger of the True God. This Serpent of Enlightenment which brought Gnosis, Gnostic truth which allows the authentic and true nature of things to be seen in this world of confusion, came to liberate man. Lucifer is the true liberator of man. He came to liberate man from the tyranny of Yahve, from the tyranny of the creator god. He brought the real knowledge that in itself can free man and help him to escape from this satanic world and return to the world from which he came.
This Serpent is, for Gnostics, the Serpent of Salvation, the Serpent which opened the eyes of man, which offered him the apple of emancipation to help him wake up and free himself from this world of misery and impure matter.
This is why the Old Testament god is destroying things and punishing everyone. Yet Christ comes with a message of love and truth to heal people.
n/a HibikiSS 2017-07-05
That's what Gnostics belief, it has nothing to do with Christianity, that's all I'm saying...
n/a LyleMillar 2017-07-05
Yeah, but I was saying the Catholic Church has been worshipping the Mystery Babylon religion of Nimrod. I highly recommend William Cooper's Mystery Babylon series. Walter Veith also has some good videos. I just think the Catholic Church has gone back to worshipping the Golden Calf, $$$, instead of God. When Martin Luthor wrote his thesis, and people had actual access to the word of God, it was an attempt to escape the corruption.
n/a pby1000 2017-07-05
I think the people we are discussing are not Christians. They have perverted the Christian religion and have made good to be evil and evil to be good. This is what Freemasonry does, as well as the Jesuits and the Knights Templar.
n/a Athos1620 2017-07-05
Organized religion is the biggest scam of all time. I thought this was known
n/a PsyRsc 2017-07-05
What would Man kind be like without any religion ? Like a Chimpanzee civilization.
n/a Todos1881 2017-07-05
Kinda like the middle east? Or the crusaders?
I don't disagree nor agree with you. We don't know what it would be like. Perhaps we could have went a more philosophical route and became more enlightened.
n/a pby1000 2017-07-05
I'd pee in her butt. I feel more enlightened already.
n/a EarnestB 2017-07-05
Chimpanzees with guns. Exactly what we have now.
n/a wildfireonvenus 2017-07-05
Claiming that Lucifer is Christ is falling into the deception of Satan. Lucifer was one of God's angels, the most brilliant, smartest angel of them all. He was the light-bearer of the garden of eden. Until he deceived Adam and Eve for power over man. “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor” (Ezekiel 28:17)
Satan was cast out of heaven and found power on earth after he deceived Adam and Eve. Now he, and the fallen angels are now known as demons (Revelation 20:2) deceive as many humans as they can. Peter warns to, “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour” (1 Peter 5:8).
n/a LyleMillar 2017-07-05
‘He’ is the beast often depicted as a ‘rampant lion’ whose minions became the ‘in-organic’ Archons that were supposedly ‘birthed from the chaos caused by Sophia’s ‘fall through the Pleroma’ (the source of all-that-exists).
As John Lash writes in his book, Not in His Image;
“And Sophia desired to cause the thing that had no innate spirit of its own to be formed into a likeness and rule over primal matter and over all the forces she had precipitated. So there appeared for the first time a ruler out of chaos, lion-like in appearance, androgynous, having an exaggerated sense of power within him, and ignorant of whence he came to be.” (The Apocryphon of John)
n/a pby1000 2017-07-05
"Claiming that Lucifer is Christ is falling into the deception of Satan." Right. So certain groups have fallen for the deception of Satan. The Freemasons, Catholic Church, Jesuits, Knights Templar, Luciferians, etc.
n/a Awesomo3082 2017-07-05
You're mixing up your entities quite a bit, with not much rhyme or reason as to why. The "serpent" was incarnated Sophia (the original Eve, too), who had the ability to take different forms. According to the myth, she took the forms of Eve, a serpent, and a tree, at different times. She was the one responsible for waking up Adam, convincing him to eat from the tree. Certainly not Lucifer, as he's portrayed in the Bible. There isn't even a single mention of Lucifer or Satan in The Fall story of Genesis. Only the serpent.
Christ is his own separate person, according to the same stories, and it's never even hinted at that he's Satan. He's the embodiment of the Original Man, who came before the demiurge, and is the template from which we we're designed. Not Satan. Not Lucifer. "Human."
John Lash says some weird stuff, and makes some bizarre claims, for an "expert" in gnosticism. The most striking example I can recall is claim that the demiurge didn't create the world, when the nag hammadi origin myths say clearly and repeatedly that he did exactly that, with the help or other archons. They also created our physical bodies as traps for our light, soul, whatever.
I'm not sure why you're trying to conflate gnosticism with luciferianism. They're very different, and your claims here reak of poisoning the well, and creating guilt by association.
n/a pby1000 2017-07-05
Can you expand on why gnosticism is different from luciferianism? At least, do you have a good source that explains this?
n/a Awesomo3082 2017-07-05
Well, both isms are pretty broad, and have a wide variety of beliefs under their umbrella. I think the main difference is that luciferians follow a "being" to salvation, who is supposedly trying to help, fight yaweh, other stuff, etc, while gnosis is more about knowing our own divine inner light, and achieving gnosis through our own personal pursuit of truth.
A person could debate the similarities and differences for days, but I think it distracts from the giant joke, which Luciferianism is. Its namesake is based on a mistranslated verse from Isaiah, which wrote about the king of Babylon, calling him the "morning star, son of dawn" (lucifer, in Latin), and how he "fell" (was conquered). There is literally no being known as Lucifer before early Christian history. He's basically a "modern" invention, based on a mistranslation, which developed it's own mythos in recent centuries.
I can see the use of Lucifer as an archetype, sure. But I doubt that many people who believe in the entity Lucifer even know what "lucifer" came from.
Here's an article I just googled up, which sums it up nicely.
n/a pby1000 2017-07-05
OK. I will look. Thanks!
I am not a Christian so I have not pondered the different between Lucifer and Satan until recently.
Did you see the halftime show from the last Super Bowl?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txXwg712zw4
n/a Awesomo3082 2017-07-05
No problem. I'm not Christian either, but I was raised in a fundamentalist Christian environment, so I've studied up on these topics quite a bit, even though much of it was done many years ago. I "lean" toward gnostic philosophies now, and have been studying it off and on for a year or so.
Satan is an actual character portrayed in the Bible. The book of Job has the best description. It refers to him as one of the sons of God, and shows him interacting with God, as a tormenter, sanctioned by God. If you're looking for Lucifer, you simply won't find "him", since he's just a misunderstanding of morning star, son of dawn. Isaiah 14:12, and a couple new testament references are all there is.
n/a pby1000 2017-07-05
I see. I do read about religion out of personal interest, but this is one issue I never really delved into. I did not know about the Luciferians until last Fall.
Wasn't it the Knights Templar that learned that the serpent was "good" because he gave humans knowledge, and God is deceitful for lying to Adam? Maybe this is from Aleister Crowley. I cannot keep track of where I read things...
n/a Awesomo3082 2017-07-05
I'm not sure about the Knights Templar angle, on that. But the "good" serpent, and "lying god" actually are part of gnostic mythology. It's not Satan, Lucifer, or any other archon character, though. The idea is that "god" created our bodies to trap our souls, and didn't want us to know about good and evil, our true origins, etc. He wanted to keep us as animals, with base instincts. The serpent, aka Sophia/Eve was a higher being than "god" who came to show us the truth, good and evil, and show us what we are.
Some gnostics take it literally. Others consider it a myth/metaphor. I'm undecided. Gnostics and luciferians share the dislike of "god", but differ greatly on just about everything else.
And btw, the Nag Hammadi library is the best collection of ancient books for gnostic stuff. The three books that deal with creation myths are Nature of the Rulers, On the Origins of the World, and Apocryphon of John. They're a tough read, though. Fascinating stuff, but you have to read it a few times to sort out all the different characters in the stories.
n/a Philomaeus 2017-07-05
They're only tough if you have a rudimentary knowledge of Early Christianity, Early Christian theology/Christological knowledge.
And most important of all, Greek Philosophical concepts. Once you understand those subjects to a decent degree. One can read Gnostic works fairly decently.
n/a Awesomo3082 2017-07-05
The toughest part is sorting through several beings with multiple names, shared names, and the rapid bouncing back and forth without announcement. The stories themselves aren't too bad, but the sorting out of who's who takes some familiarity with the subject, which you don't get, until.. you read the stories.
Then there's other important details that can be easily overlooked, like the fact that the apocryphon of John is written about psychical creation, not physical, which completely changes the nature of the story. I was so busy sorting out the details on the first couple readings, that I missed that one tiny switch of letters.
n/a Philomaeus 2017-07-05
Exactly! That's why a decent understanding of hermeneutics and philology is a must when dealing with Gnostic material, or else you quickly find oneself getting confused.
I'm going through school for ancient philology, branching into Biblical scholarship. Gnostic works and pseudopigrapha and logion are the name of the game, baby!
n/a pby1000 2017-07-05
Are you familiar with Victoryofthelight on Twitter? He/She has some interesting things to day about this topic.
https://twitter.com/KibBitzLaw/status/882064264189628418
n/a 2012ronpaul2012 2017-07-05
Praise be to Yahweh, the great I AM and the Eternal High Priest Christ Jesus! His love endures forever!
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
There was a man sent from God whose name was John. He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.
The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
(John testified concerning him. He cried out, saying, “This is the one I spoke about when I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”) Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
n/a LyleMillar 2017-07-05
Right, Moses claims to have seen God but he saw the Demiurge. Christ says no one has ever seen God but the one and only Son!
n/a 2012ronpaul2012 2017-07-05
Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Do not be deceived friend.
Michael Heiser - Gnosticism and Early Christianity
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HOD5sINobq8
n/a Awesomo3082 2017-07-05
Please point out, in the Bible, where Jesus said who his father was. Do you think it was Yaweh? I have never been able to find it.
n/a 5word 2017-07-05
Your terminology is pretty wild, the word Christ means anointed one, the word Yahweh is a guess about what YHWH means, it's entirely possible that there is no spiritual being named Yahweh. The knowledge of good and evil is what God knows to be good and bad, without this knowledge we would have been content as naked gardeners living in harmony with nature in the direct presence of God who is holy and innocent. Salvation is the tree of life, it's not good to mix the two fruits because then you live forever in a cycle of shame, guilt and condemnation for always falling short of perfection. I would suggest that you question your beliefs regarding the gnostic texts you read and ask yourself if it's possible that they were written down as symbolic stories about the son of God and the Holy Spirit (Sophia). There was a huge attack on Christian texts in the early Church, we don't have any of the originals or even copies of the originals, so perhaps these authors found another way to deliver the truth through secret writings full of symbolism.
n/a LyleMillar 2017-07-05
The Vatican destroyed the Library of Alexandria to conceal the early Christian works. Most of the disciples of Christ were burned or tortured. It's really sad because I think the original message of Christ is a beautiful thing that the world desperately needs, but the Church has used our desire to be with God as an opportunity to make $$$ and gain power. When the early Christians were rebelling against the Empire, Constantine made Christianity the official religion and then they decided on what was canon, which political ended the rebellions and brought the future of Christianity under the Empire's control. By Yahweh I mean the Old Testament god, which clearly delivers a different message from Christ, why would an all loving god destroy his people and curse them by casting them out of their homeland? Jesus teaches people how to be healed from within, at the root of their infirmaries, their spiritual problems. He doesn't demand sacrifices in blood and isn't jealous.
n/a 5word 2017-07-05
Emperor Theodosius is the one who made Nicene Christianity the official religion, I believe Constantine was long dead when this happened, his role was allowing Christians to worship without constantly facing persecution. This didn't end the rebellions because lots of people disagreed with what they came up with at Nicaea, not just the Arians.
I believe the gospel was preserved through Apostle John, he wrote a very mystical and gnostic-like gospel which contradicts the others in many places.
Could it be that there was a true God trying to lead them but the Jews kept going in different directions and worshiping false deities? I have been asking questions about the Old Testament, but there are two things that hold me back from going too far, it's that the Jewish nation is the one Jesus would have to be born into, if God just let them run free and wild then by the time Jesus was born the Jewish people would have been just as corrupt as the outside Gentile nations and the pagans. Another thing is that I believe there was a corrupt bloodline that produced giants, this forced God to send the Jews to fight wars against these hybrid humans before they destroyed the world, this would be the main reason behind the flood, to preserve the pure human race.
n/a Philomaeus 2017-07-05
No... You have to really stretch the Gospel of John to get true Gnostic elements out of it. The belief that the Gospel of John might have been a Gnostic work has been thouroughly debunked since the 20th century. With the Nag Hammadi find giving us actual physical proof of Gnostic works.
Now the GoJ can be interpreted for an Arian cause, and even a Docetic cause. But not a Gnostic one.
You need to do more research into what constitutes a Gnostic work and what doesn't.
In case you haven't picked up by my Greek portmanteau name. I've a huge passion into Greek philosophy and Gnosticism as they take to each other naturally.
I own many, many volumes of work on the subject. And have studied extensively on it.
n/a 5word 2017-07-05
What's your definition of a gnostic text then?
n/a Philomaeus 2017-07-05
Lord Jesus is literally quoting Psalm 82. Of course, you have to take into account the divine claim that Jesus actually makes in that passage in [John 10:30].
If it were just a matter of Him referring back to the passage to defend His use of the word "God," there might be some traction here. But that's not what's going on; He's referring to the psalm to draw a direct line to His unity with the Father.
And as an aside, the Hebrew word for "gods" used in Psalm 82 just translates to "Mighty ones". Not a deity in the traditional sense of the word.
A big reason why reading what the natively used words in an ancient text is. Makes it so important. English translations of Koine Greek, and Hebrew are wooden, and not too good at times.
Lastly, a Gnostic work is anything that espouses obvious Gnostic beliefs and concepts.
To simplify it a heck of a lot: Basically, the Gnostic believes in acquiring special, mystical knowledge as the means for salvation. According to Gnostic beliefs, there is a Great God that is good and perfect, but impersonal and unknowable. The creator of the universe was actually a lesser deity—a cheap knock-off of the “true God”—who wanted to create a flawless material universe but botched the job due to ignorance. Instead of having a utopia, we ended up with a world infected with pain, misery, and intellectual and spiritual blindness; all matter is now corrupt and evil. However, when this lesser deity created man, he accidentally imbued humanity with a spark of the “true” God’s spirit, making man an inherently good soul trapped in the confines of an evil, material body.
Actually getting into the technical details of the used philisophical terms, and complexities that go into making Gnosticism could go on for quite sometime. And the worst bit is that Gnosticism is a very large, and diverse religious spectrum.
So it's rather impossible to nail down what every single sect taught and believed. But the above statement is the majority of concepts that universally most sects shared with each other.
The Gospel of John does not fit any of those criteria. As I've already said, some scholars in the past speculated that the GoJ might be similar to what a Gnostic work might look like, but even they never went out on a limb and claimed it as such, merely speculated as we had no extant self-described Gnostic works in our possession until the Nag Hammadi Library find in 1945.
After that discovery, the Gnostic theory of the Gospel of John was entirely dropped and dismissed, as we finally found actual authentic Gnostic material.
Just because the Gospel of John has the highest Christology, and some mystical elements in it, does not a Gnostic work make.
Honestly, Wikipedia has a decent Gnosticism article. It's alright for a person completely unfamiliar with Gnosticism to get an Idea of it.
I'd also suggest reading "The Apocryphon of John" if you want a perfect example of what a real Gnostic work is like.
If you want a decent book with a decent introduction it Gnosticism, check this book out
It's not bad for being par for the course.
n/a 5word 2017-07-05
What does it matter if he's quoting from Psalms, it's probably the most gnostic saying you ever read before, unity with the divine as a divine being, hard to get more gnostic than that in my opinion.
There are many other verses in John that is mystical knowledge that Christians do not talk about because they don't comprehend it:
“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father." John 14:12
I have read many of the Nag Hammadi texts; I understand that it's a different type of mystical knowledge clothed in symbolism, but the doctrines of Christ in John are equally as mysterious in their own way, where he is literally telling people they have to be "born again" spiritually.
n/a hrccbr1000rr 2017-07-05
This is the inversion teaching of HP Blavatsky it is the lie behind the UN and the secret societies. Don't believe it.
n/a pby1000 2017-07-05
I will have to watch 2001 A Space Odyssey again. Look at 5:11.
https://youtu.be/ypEaGQb6dJk
n/a LyleMillar 2017-07-05
Here is a pic. And here is another. And again. Here too.
n/a LyleMillar 2017-07-05
The Vatican destroyed the Library of Alexandria to conceal the early Christian works. Most of the disciples of Christ were burned or tortured. It's really sad because I think the original message of Christ is a beautiful thing that the world desperately needs, but the Church has used our desire to be with God as an opportunity to make $$$ and gain power. When the early Christians were rebelling against the Empire, Constantine made Christianity the official religion and then they decided on what was canon, which political ended the rebellions and brought the future of Christianity under the Empire's control. By Yahweh I mean the Old Testament god, which clearly delivers a different message from Christ, why would an all loving god destroy his people and curse them by casting them out of their homeland? Jesus teaches people how to be healed from within, at the root of their infirmaries, their spiritual problems. He doesn't demand sacrifices in blood and isn't jealous.