Isn't Discrimination Illegal?
4 2017-08-17 by nugsNhugs
Apple Pay not offering services to people who hold a specific viewpoint (e.g. - white nationalism). Isn't it illegal to discriminate against people based on their beliefs/ideologies? And people are lining up to support this? I'm fucking triggered right now.
47 comments
1 cgamonitor 2017-08-17
Sure it violates a ToS, nobody wants to be the company that does business with the KKK or nazis.
1 Rayfloyd 2017-08-17
Yep, monopoly services denying service to people based on their thoughts and people are applauding it like idiots
hurr durr "Just use another service!"
1 moparornocar 2017-08-17
which service is a monopoly?
1 nisaaru 2017-08-17
Banking transfers like PayPal are pretty much in large parts of the world.
1 moparornocar 2017-08-17
which large areas of the world are paypal the only means to transfer money?
Im finding it hard to believe, and the generalization of your statement doesnt lend to its credibility.
1 nisaaru 2017-08-17
In context of online money transfer you can hardly avoid PayPal in some parts of the world.
1 moparornocar 2017-08-17
What parts? You keep saying that without actually saying where.
1 nisaaru 2017-08-17
Most online payments to US companies I have to use Paypal or credit cards. I'm not really sure what other services you have in mind here? Applepay/Googlewallets? EBay only goes through PayPal, CC or private bank transfers afaik.
Nationally I can use a quick online bank transfer system similar to PayPal in its simplicity.
I consider the termination of PayPal access a direct attack on somebody's economical existence.
1 moparornocar 2017-08-17
I disagree, you dont need paypal to survive, especially in the US. It is certainly not a monopoly.
I still hold up to their rights of denying service to who they want as long as it is not a protected class.
1 nisaaru 2017-08-17
If somebody's income stream is going through PayPal it is a matter of economical survival.
1 moparornocar 2017-08-17
thats their choice though, not a monopoly. they have access to banks and numerous other ways to transfer money.
1 ABrilliantDisaster 2017-08-17
There's no greater sin than "intolerance" in the New World Order. It's easy for people to defend this because "Nazis! OMG!' but it won't stop with what 'other" people believe.
1 ZiggyAdventures 2017-08-17
Out of all the aspects for distaste of the New World Order, being against genocide is not what I would pick.
1 ABrilliantDisaster 2017-08-17
This is exactly what i'm talking about. sounds reasonable.. especially with the dramatized buzzwords like 'genocide". it won't sound as reasonable when it's what you believe in
1 ZiggyAdventures 2017-08-17
Eh I was never into the whole holocaust denial thing, but taking your statement that the Holocaust is a believe I can see your point.
1 ABrilliantDisaster 2017-08-17
"but taking your statement that the Holocaust is a believe"
i don't know what you're trying to say here or what being into holocaust denial has to do with anything i said, exactly.
1 ZiggyAdventures 2017-08-17
Did I misunderstand your attribution of the Holocaust genocide as a believe? I see it more as a historical happening, which distaste of by the New World Order should not be condemned. I'm confused how condemning past actions coincides with believes.
1 ABrilliantDisaster 2017-08-17
Holocaust denial is a belief. There are lots of those out there. Some right, some wrong. We have a right to them. I say it's dead wrong to believe in the benevolence of a New World Order.
1 Kolyin 2017-08-17
It's illegal for the government to do it, not private companies.
1 modtrigger3000 2017-08-17
Tell that to the baker who refused to make a gay cake
1 NarwhalStreet 2017-08-17
There are legally defined protected classes when it comes to discrimination. It's basically, religions, minorities, age, and sexual orientation. White sumpremicists aren't a protected class in anti-discrimination legislation for some reason.
1 ZiggyAdventures 2017-08-17
That is incorrect, the Civil Rights Act of 1964 does not list sexual orientation as protected. It's mostly down to the states, for instance Mississippi has a law that allows refusal of service based on sexual orientation and it has been upheld by federal courts. A baker in some states can indeed refuse to make the cake.
1 NarwhalStreet 2017-08-17
Oh, my bad. Thanks for the correction.
1 nugsNhugs 2017-08-17
Last time I checked it was illegal for a company to discriminate on someone based on their beliefs, race, religion, etc...
1 Kolyin 2017-08-17
Those are all different categories, with different rules. Typically a business can refuse service for any reason, except that some reasons are prohibited. Race is the big one, gender is allowable sometimes, sexual orientation is allowable in some places, etc.
It's not an area of law I've ever practiced, so grain of salt, but I don't think there are any ideology restrictions.
1 nugsNhugs 2017-08-17
Thank you for at least some sort of rational comment. I must ask you this, though. Do you think it should be illegal to discriminate based on beliefs? And, if so, do you believe what apple is doing is immoral?
1 Kolyin 2017-08-17
No, and probably no.
I'm worried that some business, like CloudFlare, have so much market power and are so critical to the modern media market that they're essentially even more a public good than "common carriers," like railroads used to be. In that case I'd want their ability to discriminate restricted.
But I don't know enough about the tech or business to know if that's the case.
In other words, the power company shouldn't discriminate on viewpoint, even if it's private. Newspapers should. I don't know which end of the spectrum we're at here, but I suspect the latter.
1 nugsNhugs 2017-08-17
I understand what you're saying - that certain companies essentially become utilities. but I would say that a company that provides a service such as Apple Pay would be considered a utility, much like I believe google and the internet should be considered a utility. As to how that would work, I don't know. But I do believe that once a corporation/technology reaches that level of being a utility for society, it should be regulated like one.
1 Kolyin 2017-08-17
I agree with the principal, but I don't think Apple Pay rises to that level. It's got too much competition.
1 nugsNhugs 2017-08-17
See my edit. I think it should be the technology that should be regulated (e.g. - online payment services), and not the company(s)
1 moparornocar 2017-08-17
nazis and white supremacists are not a protected class.
1 nugsNhugs 2017-08-17
..... THEN WHO THE FUCK DECIDES WHCH IDEOLOGIES ARE PROTECTED AND WHICH AREN'T?? Do you not see my worry here? There aren't any (and should not be) any "protected classes", because deeming what is immoral and not is completely subjective. Which is why we have laws against government and businesses discriminating against people based on THEIR BELIEFS
1 quetz4 2017-08-17
Gender, race and sexuality are not ideologies.
1 nugsNhugs 2017-08-17
I wasn't saying they are. I was saying that you can't discriminate against people based on those things, beliefs being one of them
1 nisaaru 2017-08-17
Are you sure about that these days?:-)
1 Kolyin 2017-08-17
The legislature and in some cases courts.
1 moparornocar 2017-08-17
Gender, race, age, sexuality are all protected classes.
1 bryoneill11 2017-08-17
This why we can't get rid of cash and banks. The digital world seems scary as hell
1 stalks-the-north 2017-08-17
They're a private company so they can do whatever they want. If you don't like it, don't pay for their service. I don't understand why you're so fucking stupid, can you explain that to me?
1 nugsNhugs 2017-08-17
LOL. Bro. People are being discriminated against and you're okay with that? If a company decided to not sell things to atheists or christians, how would that make you feel? Would you be pissed then? Because that's the same shit. The only difference is that one of those ideologies/beliefs is considered by many to be wrong.
1 elcad 2017-08-17
I'm against the first one to discriminate. How is that so hard to understand? Discriminating against those that discriminate.
1 nugsNhugs 2017-08-17
You ever hear the phrase "2 wrongs don't make a right"?
1 elcad 2017-08-17
They are refusing to aid someone commuting a wrong. Inaction would be morally worse.
1 campus_dweller 2017-08-17
They'd be violating the Civil Rights Act.
1 IndigoMD 2017-08-17
If they were banning Isis would you feel the same?
1 nugsNhugs 2017-08-17
Yes, I would. I don't think you should discriminate based on beliefs. People who follow ISIS ideologies have the right to believe what they believe. However, when they begin harming others based on those beliefs is where I have a problem with it. Problem is, you can't say. Not all racists harm people of the race they discriminate against. So, i would say apple would have the right to express their discontent, but not flat out refuse them service based on opinion alone. That's a slippery fucking slope.
"I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
1 IndigoMD 2017-08-17
Okay but no one is stopping them from saying anything? They're just removing their content from their service?
So who exactly is stopping freedom of speech? If I give you a platform to speak on and I decide I don't want to support your speech anymore so I take my platform.
How is that stopping you from finding another platform.
So it Isis had a gofundme and private discord how would you feel?
1 elcad 2017-08-17
I'm against the first one to discriminate. How is that so hard to understand? Discriminating against those that discriminate.
1 Kolyin 2017-08-17
I agree with the principal, but I don't think Apple Pay rises to that level. It's got too much competition.
1 moparornocar 2017-08-17
What parts? You keep saying that without actually saying where.
1 campus_dweller 2017-08-17
They'd be violating the Civil Rights Act.