It came out of the failure of Marxist communism. Fascism was just another flavor of communism. But instead of following Marxist workers revolution paradigm of uniting workers against the higher classes, it looks to control society by uniting the corporations at the top.
Fascist corporatism. When corporations and the govt work hand in hand to create a centrally controlled utopia.
Nationalism is a common way that all parties try to rally votes in their elections. Saying that no left wing politicians have ever used nationalism as a political tool, is absurd to the extreme. Ridiculous.
It just so happens that the leftist globalists agenda are currently being threatened by various right wing candidates and parties in various countries that are trying to leverage nationalist sentiments to oppose globalization (UK - Brexit, US - Trump, France - Le Pen), you'd be right.
Hence, the left trying to equate nationalism with everything bad like NAZIs, KKK, racism, hate, and of course the narrative claims that only racist right wingers are nationalist. Which is complete bullshit.
When you are trying to take over the globe, nationalism becomes the enemy. But when you are trying to gain power in individual countries, nationalism is a tool, even for left wingers. Leftists have shown time and time again that they will go to extremes to gain power and to keep it. Virtually every dictatorship in the last 100 years has been left wing and has used nationalism as a political tool to gain or maintain power.
When did I say that? This is a discussion on political ideology, nationalism is far more an idea associated with the right than the left for at least 100 years
I think they just don't like naturally occurring hierarchy, it seems like the whole point of socialism is to artificially control the hierarchy.
Hierarchies exist because some people are more competent than others, some people are more motivated, intelligent, physically attractive, capable etc etc.
These hierarchies lead people who deserve to have a position in power, to having it. Once socialism gets involved and everyone gets a trophy then the competent productive people no longer have any reason to be productive and they fuck off while society suffers from being lead by morons.
Free market is best market, free society is best society.
I understand this. But from a philosophical perspective hierarchy isn't necessary for socialism ans especially Marxism (provided it was a global revolution)
You must be poorly informed on Marxism if you don't know what Marx even argued.
What does what Marx argued have anything to do with anything? Make your own point, stop referring to the concept of other people making points as if that proves you right.
Not required for it in the abstract sense, but imposing that system in the real world, ones needs a hierarchy and a hierarchy must be developed and imposed.
I'm not trying to be rude but "natural order" has nothing to do with socialism. I think you may be confusing lack of corporate hierarchy with lack of hierarchy in general.
The entire post is claiming fascism is born from socialism when it clearly is very different fundamentally
You haven't said a single thing that makes that point. You just keep referring to related concepts. Marxism relies on hierarchies, they're just different forms than the one we're used to.
"Natural order" is a meaningless bullshit term. If you don't know what you're talking about, stop pretending and maybe read more.
Fascists have a very strong belief in hierarchy, antithetical to the left for one example right from the article
"Punch a Nazi" is a distinctly hierarchical movement. It places white people with decent haircuts at the very bottom of the social ladder. I would also argue that the whole culture of virtue signalling is nothing more than a developing hierarchy, where one's false sense of victimization improves your social status.
Basically, I think you haven't really thought this through very much.
Even if that was true current fascists are right wing.
Like their fascist predecessors, the “neofascists” advocated militant nationalism and authoritarian values, opposed the liberal individualism of the Enlightenment, attacked Marxist and other left-wing ideologies
I was thrown off because what you quote says absolutely nothing about right wing.
You quoted "militant nationalism". Has nothing to do with right wing.
"authoritarian values" - not right wing. Describes virtually every communist dictatorship though.
"opposed the liberal individualism of the enlightenment". That's right. Socialism and communism required the state collective be more important than the individuals that make up the collective
"attacked Marxism and other left wing ideologies". The various left wing ideologies fought each other and sometimes Fascism won, as in Italy, sometimes not, as with Quisling in Norway.
I'm curious as to how this is relevant given the rightwing of American politics (GOP) controls the house, senate and presidency while the leftwing is out in the cold, legislatively.
I'm curious as to how this is relevant given the rightwing of American politics (GOP) controls the house, senate and presidency while the leftwing is out in the cold, legislatively.
It's relevant when you look at George Soros' machinations in trying to use his Antifa/BLM/KKK/Nazi groups to try to create a race war.
It's relevant because the Dems are trying to take the high ground when they are the lowest scum on the planet.
I'm hesitating to even engage with you on this...you do realize that the KKK/Nazi guys in Charlottesville were all about Trump? They chanted his name and Christopher Cantwell specifically praised him.
My guess is that you're going to say that they were all paid protesters in a mastermind scheme by Soros and the media to draw a larger divide between people? Despite the fact that there is absolutely not a shred of evidence for that theory.
the KKK/Nazi guys in Charlottesville were all about Trump
No. They were on George Soros' payroll. The NAZI/KKK groups came on the same buses as the Antifa group.
And there is quite a bit of proof. Jason Kessler, head of one of the supposed Nazi or kkk groups is Jewish and worked for the Democrats for years until he had a convenient white supremacist epiphany at the exact same time that his party failed to get Hillary elected. They tried to pass off a Jewish Democrat as the leader of a kkk/Nazi group. Amateur hour or what.
Witnesses saw both groups come off buses that were parked in a row. They came off and were given their appropriate props and off they went.
The whole accident where a protestor was allegedly killed was staged. Multiple videos online shows just how sketchy the whole thing was.
You'd think with all of Soros' money they could put together a more credible performance than this highschool level production.
Kessler was a member of the Occupy movement, sure. Otherwise you have no proof of the rest. No evidence at all. You just choose to believe it because it supports the narrative that you already ascribe to.
To review, zero proof Soros is involved. Zero evidence Kessler is Jewish. Zero evidence Kessler supported Hilary. Zero evidence that both protest groups showed up on the same bus. And finally, zero evidence that the act of terrorism was staged.
I'm curious as to how this is relevant given the rightwing of American politics (GOP) controls the house, senate and presidency while the leftwing is out in the cold, legislatively.
Now that a supermajority is needed to pass legislation (which is a bullshit problem created by BOTH parties), that isn't really as true a point as it once was.
Having control of the branches of government doesn't mean you can actually pass legislation.
The issue with Facism is there is several different definitions, so assigning it to a brand of politics is difficult. You have economic fascism which Mussolini used and authoritarian fascism which the Nazi's used. At this point both the left and right use it and label each other to divide and polarize the nation.
That's great, but the establishment took it and uses it on both sides of the political spectrum, so it doesn't matter where it came from, but how it's used at this point.
.. and now... the Democrats are the ones trying to create a race war in the US, just like socialists have created a race war between Christians and Muslims in Europe.
the KKK/Nazi guys in Charlottesville were all about Trump
No. They were on George Soros' payroll. The NAZI/KKK groups came on the same buses as the Antifa group.
And there is quite a bit of proof. Jason Kessler, head of one of the supposed Nazi or kkk groups is Jewish and worked for the Democrats for years until he had a convenient white supremacist epiphany at the exact same time that his party failed to get Hillary elected. They tried to pass off a Jewish Democrat as the leader of a kkk/Nazi group. Amateur hour or what.
Witnesses saw both groups come off buses that were parked in a row. They came off and were given their appropriate props and off they went.
The whole accident where a protestor was allegedly killed was staged. Multiple videos online shows just how sketchy the whole thing was.
You'd think with all of Soros' money they could put together a more credible performance than this highschool level production.
63 comments
1 Terex80 2017-09-05
Not really accurate. Fascists have a very strong belief in hierarchy, antithetical to the left for one example right from the article
1 KickedinTheDick 2017-09-05
Hierarchy is not antithetical to the left. It is antithetical to liberty. There are authoritarian and libertarian leftists.
Fascism is rooted in authoritarian. There can be left and right wing fascists.
1 Terex80 2017-09-05
Yes I understand that but traditionally the left ideologically were against hierarchy. Just wanted to make the point clear for OP
1 Tunderbar1 2017-09-05
It came out of the failure of Marxist communism. Fascism was just another flavor of communism. But instead of following Marxist workers revolution paradigm of uniting workers against the higher classes, it looks to control society by uniting the corporations at the top.
Fascist corporatism. When corporations and the govt work hand in hand to create a centrally controlled utopia.
We all know how that worked out in Italy.
1 Terex80 2017-09-05
That's not true though. The ideological foundations are completely different, evem down to their views on history
1 Tunderbar1 2017-09-05
Did you even follow the link and read the webpage?
1 Terex80 2017-09-05
Yes. Nationalism etc is not left wing at all.
1 Tunderbar1 2017-09-05
Nationalism is a common way that all parties try to rally votes in their elections. Saying that no left wing politicians have ever used nationalism as a political tool, is absurd to the extreme. Ridiculous.
It just so happens that the leftist globalists agenda are currently being threatened by various right wing candidates and parties in various countries that are trying to leverage nationalist sentiments to oppose globalization (UK - Brexit, US - Trump, France - Le Pen), you'd be right.
Hence, the left trying to equate nationalism with everything bad like NAZIs, KKK, racism, hate, and of course the narrative claims that only racist right wingers are nationalist. Which is complete bullshit.
When you are trying to take over the globe, nationalism becomes the enemy. But when you are trying to gain power in individual countries, nationalism is a tool, even for left wingers. Leftists have shown time and time again that they will go to extremes to gain power and to keep it. Virtually every dictatorship in the last 100 years has been left wing and has used nationalism as a political tool to gain or maintain power.
1 Terex80 2017-09-05
When did I say that? This is a discussion on political ideology, nationalism is far more an idea associated with the right than the left for at least 100 years
1 Tunderbar1 2017-09-05
No.
1 Terex80 2017-09-05
Great debating
1 Tunderbar1 2017-09-05
The idea that leftists have never been nationalistic is patently absurd.
NAZIsm is National Socialism. It was a socialist movement. Left wing.
1 MASTURBATES_YOUR_DAD 2017-09-05
How is hierarchy antithetical to the left?
1 Terex80 2017-09-05
Natural order, humans can naturally cooperate etc. Core socialist beliefs.
Yes the USSR was hierarchical but from a philosophical perspective socialism doesn't like hierarchy
1 Flytape 2017-09-05
I think they just don't like naturally occurring hierarchy, it seems like the whole point of socialism is to artificially control the hierarchy.
Hierarchies exist because some people are more competent than others, some people are more motivated, intelligent, physically attractive, capable etc etc.
These hierarchies lead people who deserve to have a position in power, to having it. Once socialism gets involved and everyone gets a trophy then the competent productive people no longer have any reason to be productive and they fuck off while society suffers from being lead by morons.
Free market is best market, free society is best society.
1 Terex80 2017-09-05
It depends somewhat on what branch of socialism you talk about
Also I never said I was a socialist so I don't need a lecture on it
1 Tunderbar1 2017-09-05
Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot still embraced and imposed a hierarchy.
1 Terex80 2017-09-05
I understand this. But from a philosophical perspective hierarchy isn't necessary for socialism ans especially Marxism (provided it was a global revolution)
1 MASTURBATES_YOUR_DAD 2017-09-05
Marxism is inherently hierarchical.
1 Terex80 2017-09-05
I suppose you have never read the communist manifesto then? Marxism is not at all
1 MASTURBATES_YOUR_DAD 2017-09-05
Holy shit can you focus on a point you've made instead of just throwing around as many buzzwords as possible?
Tell me, how does a country (or organization, or community, or whatever) run without hierarchy?
1 Terex80 2017-09-05
I'm not focussing on buzzwords. You must be poorly informed on Marxism if you don't know what Marx even argued.
1 MASTURBATES_YOUR_DAD 2017-09-05
What does what Marx argued have anything to do with anything? Make your own point, stop referring to the concept of other people making points as if that proves you right.
1 Tunderbar1 2017-09-05
Not required for it in the abstract sense, but imposing that system in the real world, ones needs a hierarchy and a hierarchy must be developed and imposed.
1 Terex80 2017-09-05
Yes but my point still stands that fascism and socialism arr completely different in their philosophical roots
1 Tunderbar1 2017-09-05
No. The historical roots are the same. They diverged slightly from Marxism and other communist paradigms.
1 MASTURBATES_YOUR_DAD 2017-09-05
I'm not trying to be rude but "natural order" has nothing to do with socialism. I think you may be confusing lack of corporate hierarchy with lack of hierarchy in general.
1 Terex80 2017-09-05
Well in the Marxist sense of socialism then you do get natural order since the state withers away etc.
Also hierarchy doesn't just mean that. There isn't racialism in socialism
1 MASTURBATES_YOUR_DAD 2017-09-05
Okay a few things
1) You keep using the Left, Marxism, and Socialism interchangeably even though they're different things
2) Socialism doesn't eliminate the state
3) Marxism doesn't eliminate the state
4) An elimination of the state is not the elimination of hierarchy
5) There are hierarchies inherent to natural order
I have no idea what that means in this context.
1 Terex80 2017-09-05
I know they are different things.
Socialism doesn't necessarily but Marxism absolutely does. The state will wither away
The entire post is claiming fascism is born from socialism when it clearly is very different fundamentally
1 MASTURBATES_YOUR_DAD 2017-09-05
You haven't said a single thing that makes that point. You just keep referring to related concepts. Marxism relies on hierarchies, they're just different forms than the one we're used to.
"Natural order" is a meaningless bullshit term. If you don't know what you're talking about, stop pretending and maybe read more.
We're not arguing about Marxism. We're arguing
1 IthAConthpirathee 2017-09-05
"Punch a Nazi" is a distinctly hierarchical movement. It places white people with decent haircuts at the very bottom of the social ladder. I would also argue that the whole culture of virtue signalling is nothing more than a developing hierarchy, where one's false sense of victimization improves your social status.
Basically, I think you haven't really thought this through very much.
1 Terex80 2017-09-05
Ah yes because fascism came out after the alt left... the current left isn't really relevant here since the post is about the origins of fascism
Don't think you have really thought this out much
1 IthAConthpirathee 2017-09-05
When you respond to a user's comment, and instead of admitting they were wrong they try to insert a bunch of context after the fact.
1 quetz4 2017-09-05
Even if that was true current fascists are right wing.
1 Tunderbar1 2017-09-05
Cite? Or are you just pulling that from CNN headlines?
1 quetz4 2017-09-05
I'm pulling it from your own link
1 Tunderbar1 2017-09-05
I was thrown off because what you quote says absolutely nothing about right wing.
You quoted "militant nationalism". Has nothing to do with right wing.
"authoritarian values" - not right wing. Describes virtually every communist dictatorship though.
"opposed the liberal individualism of the enlightenment". That's right. Socialism and communism required the state collective be more important than the individuals that make up the collective
"attacked Marxism and other left wing ideologies". The various left wing ideologies fought each other and sometimes Fascism won, as in Italy, sometimes not, as with Quisling in Norway.
Nice try though.
1 DefiniteShill 2017-09-05
I'm curious as to how this is relevant given the rightwing of American politics (GOP) controls the house, senate and presidency while the leftwing is out in the cold, legislatively.
1 Tunderbar1 2017-09-05
It's relevant when you look at George Soros' machinations in trying to use his Antifa/BLM/KKK/Nazi groups to try to create a race war.
It's relevant because the Dems are trying to take the high ground when they are the lowest scum on the planet.
1 DefiniteShill 2017-09-05
I'm hesitating to even engage with you on this...you do realize that the KKK/Nazi guys in Charlottesville were all about Trump? They chanted his name and Christopher Cantwell specifically praised him.
My guess is that you're going to say that they were all paid protesters in a mastermind scheme by Soros and the media to draw a larger divide between people? Despite the fact that there is absolutely not a shred of evidence for that theory.
1 Tunderbar1 2017-09-05
No. They were on George Soros' payroll. The NAZI/KKK groups came on the same buses as the Antifa group.
And there is quite a bit of proof. Jason Kessler, head of one of the supposed Nazi or kkk groups is Jewish and worked for the Democrats for years until he had a convenient white supremacist epiphany at the exact same time that his party failed to get Hillary elected. They tried to pass off a Jewish Democrat as the leader of a kkk/Nazi group. Amateur hour or what.
Witnesses saw both groups come off buses that were parked in a row. They came off and were given their appropriate props and off they went.
The whole accident where a protestor was allegedly killed was staged. Multiple videos online shows just how sketchy the whole thing was.
You'd think with all of Soros' money they could put together a more credible performance than this highschool level production.
1 DefiniteShill 2017-09-05
Kessler was a member of the Occupy movement, sure. Otherwise you have no proof of the rest. No evidence at all. You just choose to believe it because it supports the narrative that you already ascribe to.
To review, zero proof Soros is involved. Zero evidence Kessler is Jewish. Zero evidence Kessler supported Hilary. Zero evidence that both protest groups showed up on the same bus. And finally, zero evidence that the act of terrorism was staged.
1 Tunderbar1 2017-09-05
You sure are trusting of the MSM narrative.
Why are you in this subreddit again?
1 DefiniteShill 2017-09-05
Great rebuttal
1 Tunderbar1 2017-09-05
I thought so.
1 DefiniteShill 2017-09-05
Gimme a shout when you break that Awan cas
1 Tunderbar1 2017-09-05
Not my job. The FBI are on it.
1 DefiniteShill 2017-09-05
Aren't they deep state though?
1 MASTURBATES_YOUR_DAD 2017-09-05
Now that a supermajority is needed to pass legislation (which is a bullshit problem created by BOTH parties), that isn't really as true a point as it once was.
Having control of the branches of government doesn't mean you can actually pass legislation.
1 kit8642 2017-09-05
The issue with Facism is there is several different definitions, so assigning it to a brand of politics is difficult. You have economic fascism which Mussolini used and authoritarian fascism which the Nazi's used. At this point both the left and right use it and label each other to divide and polarize the nation.
1 Tunderbar1 2017-09-05
I didn't look at definitions. I looked at the actual history.
It's roots are from the left. The people involved in it's creation came from a socialist or communist or leftists background.
1 kit8642 2017-09-05
That's great, but the establishment took it and uses it on both sides of the political spectrum, so it doesn't matter where it came from, but how it's used at this point.
1 ClassicFives 2017-09-05
and now...
1 Tunderbar1 2017-09-05
.. and now... the Democrats are the ones trying to create a race war in the US, just like socialists have created a race war between Christians and Muslims in Europe.
1 quetz4 2017-09-05
Yes it was those darn democrats chanting "blood and soil" and "Jew will not replace us" in Charlottesville
1 Tunderbar1 2017-09-05
Jason Kessler is Jewish. Look him up.
1 quetz4 2017-09-05
And everyone else who showed up and chanted?
1 Tunderbar1 2017-09-05
yes.
1 ClassicFives 2017-09-05
Even the guy in the Vice Doc complaining about how many there were in the city? Yeah, okay.
1 skorponok 2017-09-05
Especially that guy
1 1618b 2017-09-05
so is communism (despotism)
1 MASTURBATES_YOUR_DAD 2017-09-05
Holy shit can you focus on a point you've made instead of just throwing around as many buzzwords as possible?
Tell me, how does a country (or organization, or community, or whatever) run without hierarchy?
1 Tunderbar1 2017-09-05
No. They were on George Soros' payroll. The NAZI/KKK groups came on the same buses as the Antifa group.
And there is quite a bit of proof. Jason Kessler, head of one of the supposed Nazi or kkk groups is Jewish and worked for the Democrats for years until he had a convenient white supremacist epiphany at the exact same time that his party failed to get Hillary elected. They tried to pass off a Jewish Democrat as the leader of a kkk/Nazi group. Amateur hour or what.
Witnesses saw both groups come off buses that were parked in a row. They came off and were given their appropriate props and off they went.
The whole accident where a protestor was allegedly killed was staged. Multiple videos online shows just how sketchy the whole thing was.
You'd think with all of Soros' money they could put together a more credible performance than this highschool level production.
1 DefiniteShill 2017-09-05
Gimme a shout when you break that Awan cas