Let's talk about Rule 10

4  2017-10-13 by inyourarea

This part specifically: "Accusing another user of being a troll or shill can be viewed as an attack, depending on context."

It is widely reported as fact that shills exist. Paid shills specifically targeting discussion forums to spread misinformation and distrust.

Why again, is it against the rules of this sub to call out shills?

40 comments

1  hoeskioeh 2017-10-13

because it is impossible to proof.
and thus impossible to defend against.

basically, it will escalate into a shitstorm and a flame war that no one wants to read and that no one wants to moderate.

1  inyourarea 2017-10-13

but literally half the discussion here is already shitstorms and flamewars

1  hoeskioeh 2017-10-13

then let the other half be a discussion based on reason and arguments :-D

1  inyourarea 2017-10-13

"based on reason" on the internet? What are you, a shill? (SARCASM PLEASE MODS DON'T BAN ME)

1  ShallowendPirate 2017-10-13

Why again, is it against the rules of this sub to call out shills?

So that when someone disagrees with you or provides a counterpoint, the response isn't "SHILL, FUCKIN' SHILL, REEEEE" and you can have an actual discussion.

It's supposed to encourage discussion.

1  inyourarea 2017-10-13

People are banned/warned for pointing out posts by 1 day old accounts publishing articles from Shareblue, an organization that literally is a shill organization.

1  ShallowendPirate 2017-10-13

That's weak. I've called out a few people on here for spreading disinfo, but I haven't had any issues. I guess fight the power and provide links and sources to the mods when they're wrong. If that doesn't work, take the evidence to a new sub and blow it up there. Hold the staff accountable.

1  inyourarea 2017-10-13

fair point.

1  ShallowendPirate 2017-10-13

That's part of what this sub is about, right? Conspiracies are happening all the time. If the staff is conspiring to shut down the discussion of information and openly allowing disinformation (not differing opinion but actual bad intel) to be spread, then there's something actually wrong here. Make it their problem when they do.

1  inyourarea 2017-10-13

To be fair the mods are just humans. How can they, or we, spot actual disinformation when it's posted? And if pointing out the existence of shills and shill tactics is against the rules, how do we make any collective headway towards finding truth?

1  ShallowendPirate 2017-10-13

Calling out shills isn't against the rules, but using that as your only argument or your only comment probably is.

Example: "hillary did nothing wrong!"

"SHILL!"

Wrong.

"Hillary did nothing wrong!

"Shill, she used private email servers for federal business, etc. (providing an argument)

Probably not wrong...

To be fair the mods are just humans. How can they, or we, spot actual disinformation when it's posted?

The same way we do. Research. If it's posted and it's a well known fact, fine leave it alone. If it's new information, source it. Links, any type of proof. You know, similar to investigative journalism.

1  inyourarea 2017-10-13

It would be nice, if what you just said is in fact the way the rules worked, if the rule explicitly stated it in that way.

1  ShallowendPirate 2017-10-13

Yeah, unofrtunately who knows? I'm not a mod, I can't say...

1  mastigia 2017-10-13

Before rule 10 every post eventually devolved into shill accusations.

1  Snot_that_simple 2017-10-13

This is a distraction from the Weinerstein Vegas psyop.

1  inyourarea 2017-10-13

are you calling me a shill?

1  heresmything 2017-10-13

This. Why don’t they allow ad hominem fallacies?

1  grivent 2017-10-13

Can you actually prove that anyone is a shill, or is it just something you call someone you disagree with?

1  inyourarea 2017-10-13

Since when did a sub dedicated to theory suddenly care about proof?

1  grivent 2017-10-13

So it's a meaningless word.

1  inyourarea 2017-10-13

So, you can't generally prove an individual user is a shill, but you can easily prove shills exist and they specifically target discussion groups to spread misinformation and flamewars. The word itself is not meaningless, individual accusations can be.

1  grivent 2017-10-13

Has there ever been a shill accusation that was proven correct in this sub, ever?

1  inyourarea 2017-10-13

the problem is that it's so divided. There is actual proof that Russia is paying shills to push pro-trump content, and there is actual proof that Shareblue is paying shills to push anti-trump content, to the point where no one can trust each other here.

1  groman29 2017-10-13

Damn!

1  atavisticbeast 2017-10-13

Why again, is it against the rules of this sub to call out shills?

Because you can't know if someone is a shill or not, it's not constructive to discussions, it contributes heavily to forum sliding (intentional or not), distracts from the main point of posts and turns into a flame war, it hampers civil and rational dialogue....

Basically, calling people shills, whether they are or not, is pretty fucking toxic behavior and does literally nothing but breed mistrust and conflict within our community.

Discuss ideas, don't name call. Use those upvotes/downvotes.

1  inyourarea 2017-10-13

Shills exist to breed mistrust and conflict within our community. Calling them out breeds mistrust and conflict within our community. It's shillception.

1  atavisticbeast 2017-10-13

yeah, which is why i've often times suspected that the whole idea that reddit is infested with shills is actually just a psy-op, and the real manipulation is being done with bot swarms to control upvotes.

just make everyone distrust anyone with different ideas, spread paranoia and hatred, and then all you gotta do is control what gets upvoted or not. just like that, you have neutered the community.

just my thoughts...

1  inyourarea 2017-10-13

So what can we do to build trust and erase conflict in our community?

1  atavisticbeast 2017-10-13

nothing.

i don't mean to be too cynical or pessimistic, but i think the harsh reality is that /r/conspiracy is just too big at this point. too mainstream. and i think any large internet community is fucked at this point.

i still come here out of curiosity and because i've been coming here for many many years, but... it's just different now. and i don't see any way of it ever going back to what it was.

1  Evilmeevilyou 2017-10-13

Not throwing around shill accusations is actually a step in the right direction. And if it’s a shitty source, you can always jus call it fake news and return to bootlicking.

1  inyourarea 2017-10-13

yeah calling people bootlickers is a great step forward in building trust and erasing conflict.

1  Evilmeevilyou 2017-10-13

Fuck authoritarians here. If anyone’s shills pushing agendas and military worship, it’s them.

1  likes-to-use-italics 2017-10-13

I've been called a shill many times because I don't like Trump. Just think about that. I'm in a sub about conspiracies and I'm speaking out against the government and I'm told I'm getting paid for my opinion.

So the president is horribly unpopular but people still can't grasp that I guess.

1  inyourarea 2017-10-13

it's kind of a sad state of things here. You are either a "Clinton loving pizza gate shill doing spirit cooking" or you are a "Russia loving Trump shill bootlicker" with zero middle ground or nuance.

1  Facts_About_Cats 2017-10-13

The shills are so obvious, they're always the same. "So let's assume debunked theories like multiple shooters are false." Uh, no, you're a shill, they're not debunked, you're debunked.

1  inyourarea 2017-10-13

that, sir, is a great fact about cats!

1  EyeOfTheBeast 2017-10-13

Meeeoooow

1  lolheadshot 2017-10-13

I found it best to simply speculate that a given post has the appearance of a slide or astro turf attempt and then let the user explain why its not.

While I am not accusing anyone, I merely present the suggestion that there post seems a certain way. Most of the time people will clarify their position and we move on with the conversation. Shills in my experience don't reply or start making personal attacks.

1  Lol_regressive_tears 2017-10-13

you know exactly why. Reddit is dead

1  Chemsmith 2017-10-13

Same reason we can't call people on being full of shit or just plain fucking wrong. It might hurt teh feels.

1  ShallowendPirate 2017-10-13

That's part of what this sub is about, right? Conspiracies are happening all the time. If the staff is conspiring to shut down the discussion of information and openly allowing disinformation (not differing opinion but actual bad intel) to be spread, then there's something actually wrong here. Make it their problem when they do.