How to permanently defeat shills and trolls
52 2017-11-27 by LonelyIslandIsWoke
Shills rotate between a few well-known strategies that are pretty easy to see once you are aware of them. That is why the moderators have chosen to sidebar this article, and if you haven't read it, you need to:
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2012/07/22/1112509/-The-Gentleperson-s-Guide-to-Forum-Spies
The key to defeating these strategies is to understand what they do. Shilling strategies generally boil down to an attempt to get you to stop having a productive discussion of the truth.
The shills are just as happy if you start calling them names, give sarcastic replies, become frustrated and stop posting entirely, or start using their own strategies back. Because the shills win when no meaningful information is exchanged, and quality drops from real research to silly gossip and conjecture:
"By implementing continual and non-related postings that distract and disrupt (trolling ) the forum readers they are more effectively stopped from anything of any real productivity. If the intensity of gradual dilution is intense enough, the readers will effectively stop researching and simply slip into a 'gossip mode.' In this state they can be more easily misdirected away from facts towards uninformed conjecture and opinion. The less informed they are the more effective and easy it becomes to control the entire group in the direction that you would desire the group to go in."
How do we defeat this?
- Always make high quality, fact-based posts and comments. Never shitpost.
- Always back up everything you say with reliable sources. Prove your claims.
- Always respond to shills with facts and logical arguments that refute their errors.
- Never make a sarcastic response that doesn't refute the disinformation
- Never use the 25 disinformation tactics (read them, then read your comment history and see how many you're using)
- If you see disinformation strategies in a post, explain why it is using a known disinformation tactic. This raises the consciousness level of the neutral reader more than just saying "fuck off, shill!"
- When you have a disagreement, avoid an immediate emotional reactions. Instead, take a few minutes to construct a calm, fact-based response showing why the other person is wrong. This helps clarify points of disagreement, and edifies both parties and their readers (look at how Socrates and Plato argued for an example).
- Moderators can aggressively police shilling strategies, which cleans up the board while allowing free speech for anyone wanting to add to the discussion.
The meme of "don't feed the trolls" is aimed at low-consciousness people who can't prove the shills wrong. Readers of r/conspiracy are quite capable of defeating shills by shining the light of truth on these cockroaches.
Indeed, this is what they fear more than anything else:
"However in some cases where the forum members are highly educated and can counter your disinformation with real facts and linked postings, you can then 'abort' the consensus cracking by initiating a 'forum slide.'"
In other words, if the shills are constantly faced by a barrage of facts and links refuting their disinformation, they will be forced to stop.
52 comments
1 DownWithTopMinds 2017-11-27
Its hard when they can legitimately say "your fucking stupid", and you cant retaliate in any form
1 themadhat1 2017-11-27
sure you can. block them.
1 DownWithTopMinds 2017-11-27
But then the same rotten user will do it to someone else. Thats the same problem as TMOR. The "ostrich" defense is not a solution.
1 themadhat1 2017-11-27
report the exchange to mods and post the exchange in a post and warn people about them this one fucker started going through my comment history and doing some very strange shit. so i looked at his and it was nothing but bullshit. they banned him from conspiracy and then they went the extra mile and had his account frozen by admin....it can be done.
1 itsthetruthbitch 2017-11-27
just say "no, im not."
1 DownWithTopMinds 2017-11-27
But then I would be lying
1 itsthetruthbitch 2017-11-27
lol
1 WarSanchez 2017-11-27
Is this a self deprecating joke or do you genuinely believe you are dumb?
1 itsthetruthbitch 2017-11-27
he doesn't believe it, he is dumb
1 LonelyIslandIsWoke 2017-11-27
That's when you point out that screaming "your fucking stupid" isn't logically valid. Most of the people that hang out here know that, but there are a few newer people that really don't understand basic logic (most people don't) who will actually be enlightened by a response like that.
1 Mountaingiraffe 2017-11-27
One of their techniques is to tie 2 the well intentioned. So if you have a feeling that someone is just leading you on, leave the discussion. I sometimes get asked to give sources or do research on blatant truths. I will not entertain those
1 DownWithTopMinds 2017-11-27
Thanks for the advice!
1 LonelyIslandIsWoke 2017-11-27
That's been their most successful attack on this sub.
1 KarmaPolice777 2017-11-27
They will often dance around the relevant points of the topic being discussed. For example, you bring up the blockade on Yemen, the subsequent deaths of children, and how this is a war crime, they will talk about Iran, how Yemen is a breeding ground for terrorism, how Obama began the campaing not Trump.
When they do this, just refocus them by re-quoting your original point and ask them to address that. They might bring up other irrelevant points but if you continue to refocus on the main point(e.g. the fact that the blockade is a war crime), they will summon their bots and mass downvote your comments but will stop replying to you.
1 thebabyseagull 2017-11-27
Report them.
Personal attacks are not allowed.
They would sure as hell report you.
1 DownWithTopMinds 2017-11-27
Look @ my last comment, the "youre fucking dumb" response is still up if youd like to report it also. He calls the next person in that same thread dumb also
1 DownWithTopMinds 2017-11-27
Look @ my last comment, the "youre fucking dumb" response is still up if youd like to report it also. He calls the next person in that same thread dumb also
1 DownWithTopMinds 2017-11-27
Look @ my last comment, the "youre fucking dumb" response is still up if youd like to report it also. He calls the next person in that same thread dumb also
1 UnverifiedAlligator 2017-11-27
the report button and sympathetic mods is definitely a go to
1 itsthetruthbitch 2017-11-27
trump is immune to trolls. trump is my idol. therefore just be like trump and you too can be troll proof.
1 tefvik_arif 2017-11-27
Like Lavar Ball?
1 Tamerlane-1 2017-11-27
Definitely not like you...
1 i_am_unikitty 2017-11-27
Reading rainbow suxxxxxx
1 spacelord_rasputin 2017-11-27
These are pretty much all good ideas regardless of any shill activity.
1 ANON331717 2017-11-27
Shill post
1 Kendle_C 2017-11-27
Sources?
1 ANON331717 2017-11-27
Can’t divulge. National security interest.
1 Kendle_C 2017-11-27
You better delete this, then. Trust no-one but I'm your pal.
1 ANON331717 2017-11-27
Trust but verify
1 i_am_unikitty 2017-11-27
Don't trust, as well as verify
1 ANON331717 2017-11-27
Dont trust, cant verify.
1 RaakamB 2017-11-27
Isn't that censorship!
1 UnverifiedAlligator 2017-11-27
here? literally nothing
OPs post had a good point that mods should be looking out for shill tactics not perspectives they dont like. if someone isnt using logic and instead resorts to ad hominems and inflaming language I feel like that should be moderated. Remember, the biggest weakness of shills is that they know they are arguing from the wrong. Their arguments dont have a leg to stand on. IF they did, they wouldnt need to shill that perspective!
1 bannana 2017-11-27
nothing. I was called a shill repeatedly last night when I went several rounds with some rabid PGers. I've been here 10yrs with an open post history but yet they claim I'm being paid to say that pizza is nonsense, I'm unclear who would pay for this service but apparently it's clear to these folks that some entity does this.
1 wwwes32 2017-11-27
OK, here's the problem with this strategy. Half the links I've seen people post trying to prove a point are bullshit. I call them out on the bullshit, they just get annoyed and say I'm either delusional or call me a shill. So how is that helpful?
And posting a giant wall of text doesn't mean you are right, it just means you have found a lot of links that say what you are trying to say. Read the links, interpret the links for yourself, and defend what you are using to show that you have the correct point. Another reason why walls of text and links are a bad idea, because it makes it nearly impossible to have a discussion about all of them.
1 LonelyIslandIsWoke 2017-11-27
If you don't explain why the link is incorrect, then you're invoking a logical fallacy:
"ad Hominem Fallacy: (abusive and circumstantial): the fallacy of attacking the character or circumstances of an individual who is advancing a statement or an argument instead of seeking to disprove the truth of the statement or the soundness of the argument. Often the fallacy is characterized simply as a personal attack. "
http://philosophy.lander.edu/logic/person.html
1 wwwes32 2017-11-27
Usually I try to, but I am often on my phone and it's hard to find a bunch of sources to back up a statement, especially when most of the time I'm just stating my own interpretation of something.
Occasionally I can dive deep and actually post real analysis, but even doing that, I seem to get the same response, just get called a shill or stupid.
1 bannana 2017-11-27
many are based on a false premise and would need a history lesson and not just a few sentences to refute, if someone is dealing from a profound basic misunderstanding of how reality works then there really isn't much that can change this short of a multi-page explanation that they probably won't read anyway.
1 RIDER_OF_BROHAN 2017-11-27
Ignoring an unfounded claim is NOT the definition of ad hominem.
I mean, no one can ACTUALLY disprove there's a child sex slave ring on Mars- but I'm not obligated to disprove that. It's on the person introducing the claim to back up their claims with some kind of evidence.
1 ubervongoober 2017-11-27
If you don't disprove every link in the text wall you lose too. No one has time to shoot down 50 different links
1 isyad 2017-11-27
Contest mode for all posts for 48 hrs.
1 wwwes32 2017-11-27
I don't know why they don't just enable that mode all the time. People would stop complaining about shills pushing all the comments to the top..
1 UnverifiedAlligator 2017-11-27
because the last time we saw extensive use of contest mode mods were using alts to flood the thread with low effort partisan shitposts that had an equal chance of rising to the top of the discussion
1 Otto-von-Bolschitt 2017-11-27
sadly, that is not true at all. That's not why they exist in the first place, and I'm convinced many of those sort of accounts aren't even directly run by humans (they're automated language-capable bots)
1 UnverifiedAlligator 2017-11-27
we had a bunch of bots get exposed for copying t_d posts and conversation chains here.
1 TotesMessenger 2017-11-27
I'm a bot, bleep, bloop. Someone has linked to this thread from another place on reddit:
If you follow any of the above links, please respect the rules of reddit and don't vote in the other threads. (Info / Contact)
1 ANON331717 2017-11-27
Just turn the shilling back onto the shill. They eventually get frustrated when they cant make headway, call you some names, and then disengage. Always get the last word. Engage with them until their shift is over. Gotta have fun with it, or they win.
1 waltdewalt 2017-11-27
NEVER
1 i_am_unikitty 2017-11-27
Sometimes
1 joseph177 2017-11-27
Expend all your energy on shills?
1 Slipgrid 2017-11-27
If someone is shilling you, report as spam and block them.
1 BandyBanana 2017-11-27
Number 1 is the key to shut them down. It's very easy to do. Once you do this, and they feel like they are losing, they start being sarcastic and childish, away from the initial argument. Very predictable.
1 DereIzNoPoint 2017-11-27
Word to your mother.
1 QTAnon 2017-11-27
Where does "accuse everyone of being a sock puppet" fit into your strategy?
1 petrus4 2017-11-27
For me, the only real problem with /r/conspiracy, is the amount that /r/Socialism leaks in here at times; not to mention the usual authoritarian Communist, pseudo-Utopian gang who allow themselves to be used as Hillary's henchbeings.
1 ubervongoober 2017-11-27
Yawn you Trump tards really think this is your turf don't you?
1 petrus4 2017-11-27
I'm actually not an advocate of Donald Trump at all. I just don't want to associate with people any more, who are so assured of their own supposed righteousness, that they treat those who they consider their opponents, as less than human.
While both sides do that, I actually see the Left doing it more; and the reason why that stands out to me more, is because it's the Left who continually claim to have the moral high ground. The Right don't try and wrap themselves in Gandhi's toga on the one hand, and then call people who disagree with them "tards," on the other.
That's what I'm really tired of; the patronising condescension. The attitude that whatever the Left believe in is supposedly just self-evident historical inevitability, and that if you disagree, there is no place for you other than for you to be supposedly destroyed. My attitude now is, let me be destroyed, if that is the case; because I do not want to be among such people.
1 schmickler83 2017-11-27
Except their own rule, Rule 10, is specifically used to prevent users from calling out shilling. It is the shill's best tool for shilling here.
1 dogrescuersometimes 2017-11-27
I love #6. Thank you for this reminder post.
1 Chokaholic 2017-11-27
They're so obvious too, especially when you have a few keywords in your post/comment. They swarm you and try to drag down your morale. On top of that you have TMOR clowns brigading. You have to grab a sweater because it gets very shilly in here sometimes.
1 partyghost 2017-11-27
Why don't we just ignore them. I shouldn't have to post proof on a conspiracy THEORY forum. This whole extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence thing is bullshit. Extraordinary claims should require the same proof as everything else.
1 themadhat1 2017-11-27
report the exchange to mods and post the exchange in a post and warn people about them this one fucker started going through my comment history and doing some very strange shit. so i looked at his and it was nothing but bullshit. they banned him from conspiracy and then they went the extra mile and had his account frozen by admin....it can be done.
1 UnverifiedAlligator 2017-11-27
because the last time we saw extensive use of contest mode mods were using alts to flood the thread with low effort partisan shitposts that had an equal chance of rising to the top of the discussion