The greatest aid manson had was probably belladonna. Mainstream recognition of this as a "zombie drug", is exaggerated but not unwarranted.

At any rate, yes, the program was fierce, and the rumors are true.

May have been mentioned as datura, or Jonson weed, though the docs I've seen on manson which included interviews with members of "the family" mentioned personal accounts of taking belladonna regularly.

Absolutely. The arm of the ultra program that had to do with chemical influence was quite large though.

I wasn't just trying to correct you or anything. Just a favorite topic.

The chemical aspect is entirely the point though. Seems like a book with an agenda. The CIA literally couldn't do what they do without drugs.

those are different plants than belladonna. with different active chemicals. datura isnt that strong either.

Atropine and scopolamine are the main constituents, and datura is quite strong, though tree daturas (brugmansia) are not. All are tropanes alkaloids and all are in the nightshade family.

Jimsom is belladonna?

belladonna is deadly nightshade.

I dont think its used often, but it induces delirium -- which is like ACTUAL hallucinations you believe are real -- whereas hallucinogens only distort reality and dont make you 'see things' unless your a schizophrenic and it causes an episode.

the most you see as a normal person is objects bending and warping, and colors. but the objects are all real things, its just your perception of them.

well ive done a lot of LSD. most I ever saw was tie-dye patterns looking like pop-up images, colors extending out of a television screen while watching dragon ball super, and objects bend or distort.

the biggest distortion was looking at some of my roommates -- they popped out to me like a pop-up book, and the background of the room faded into fuzzyness like the parts that dont pop out.

Ive never seen, say, dogs or imaginary animals that didnt exist, or entire objects that werent there or anything -- and neither have any of my truly experienced drug using buddies whom i would go use or share with.

so, to me, it seems that almost all people who really are honest and not trying to be like "OH SHIT IM SO FUCKED UP IM SO COOL I KNOW DRUGS WATCH ME SMOKE LSD LOLS", all have reported not seeing actual objects that arent there.

if you DO happen to see, say, a man in black following you or something crazy like an actual demon... it might be time to lay off the LSD and pot and go get yourself into a mental hospital because you probably set of schizophrenia.

I could be wrong, but I really dont believe I am. there is a difference between delirium and hallucination -- a hallucination is just a sensory perception outside the norm -- a delirium is when you cant tell the difference between reality and the hallucination.

but even with that definition, I never got to see Goku come to life, or king kai, or a demon/elf/alien or anything not normal.

and ive done a decent amount of a wide variety of drugs, including LSD.

I always wished I could enter a non-existant fantasy world for awhile -- but so far ive yet to find a drug that actually turns everything into the yellow submarine video.

the colors do pop out, and I can see how LSD influenced such art with the spirals and strange stuff...

I cant really say more. im not an authority, I guess, just a guy whos done a lot of different hallucinogens and other drugs.

for me, a bad trip was just mega anxiety and racing bad thoughts.

The visuals with lsd are geomatrical shapes and objects merge and shift. And colours. Some people get visuals easier than others, it also depends on the dose. Take enough and all you see are visuals.

yeah that's what I meant by distortions. I don't consider closed eye visuals, or geometric patterns or distortions to be objects that aren't there.

its not like your seeing a face that literally isn't there floating in midair

its not like your seeing a face that literally isn't there floating in midair

You might if you take enough. You certainly do see stuff in the air that isnt there, twisting morphing shifting geometrical shapes and patterns. Take enough and you wont see the world at all, you will see only the visuals.

Indeed, big difference between anticholinergic delusion and psychedelic visions.

High doses of lsd, psilocybin, mescaline, and especially DMT can definitely cause hallucinations of things which aren't there, as well as obe though.

maybe I just didn't do enough then.

for me its a rare treat that I barely ever come across unless I chow down on LSA seeds. I Havent tried the third, less common seed, but I head its more potent with less nausea, I forget the name, but ive used woodrose and morning glories.

but unless I resort to that, which I almost never do (three times), I have to wait until a third party actually finds it and middles it because I'm a close friend they know isn't a narc and can make a few quick bucks by sharing.

I don't frequent those scenes -- mainly because I'm too poor -- and I don't have friends in the right circles to get it first, or even second hand.

I end up waiting years. and the most ive been able to do is 5 hits really. Once I got a 10 strip lol, but I split it with someone to have a safe place to trip and a buddy.

I always try to buy more, but most of the time, the person is just selling me half of their own stash or something. I always wanted access to more when I had money...

but right now I don't even have that. I'm putting everything into school and probably wasting my time trying to put life back together at the mid-way point and start again. I Quit opiates, went to rehab, got a job and got on kratom to kick subs because rehab got me more addicted, quit the job and quit kratom,

and now I'm back in college pursuing my passion -- software engineering (sadly I need like 4 math classes to get into comp sci -- so I'm planning on getting into the industry and going back for the math later, then applying for a masters in comp sci if I can).

its probably unrealistic, and even if ive done well in school so far I'll probably never be good enough to get a job or pull myself out of this, or it could happen that poverty keeps me from it -- I have to apply to private colleges only next semester as state schools only offer comp sci (thus, math that I also would get no aid for and have to take 2 at a time and not graduate til 35 to take rn), and I have no income and a family that lives solely off social security.

its shitty, even if I get a job, the most I can make is minimum wage. I have no official skills or qualifications at all other than working in fast food, ive been a cook, but I have 0 references because most people I worked for were independent fly-by-nights without phone numbers, under the table, or burnt bridges that will give me horrific references

so pretty much I Feel its my last shot at life, and am trying to see if I can break into the only thing I Really know and enjoy doing well enough to possibly be pro at.

so right now, I don't even have any money to try looking. I Wish I could find $20 so I could smoke pot even lmao. so even trying to find it would be impossible.

at this point I have no car, and no ability anymore. but maybe its for the best, because ive really put every spare moment into trying to be successful and learn more about programming to try and get a job.

either it will pay off, or I'll end up at the end of a noose instead of dealing with not having enough money to live.

soon my family will die too, I will have nobody and nothing to fall back on. everyone is real sick. the only reason I'm still here with them, is because I'm trying to turn my life around.

Inside I'm dying to party just a little, to relieve the tension and stress and forget for just awhile. but there has been no party for me, in a long time now.

without the crutch of some sort of opioid (even kratom and subs helped a little bit), and without enough pot to ration, which I consider to be valid medicine for migranes and anxiety amongst other disorders, its been hard to keep going and ive been close to burning out, even though I'm at the top of all my classes by a longshot.

As noted by another above, a meditative mind enhances things which enhance a meditative mind.

for reference, even though seriously bad fevers arent common in todays world, a fever hallucination from serious illness is an example of delirium.

in shorter words, a regular hallucination might involve trees looking different -- but it wont involve them being on fire suddenly, with the flames not being real.

You didnt take enough. Some people get visuals easier.

As in something like Scopolamine?

While that shit is the devil; I don't think that's the root of the Manson Family.

I do believe that Charles Manson was a result of MK Ultra. He used the same tactics (a steady diet of dogma, sexual abuse, and hallucinogens) as the CIA program. Difference was that he was meant to culturally assassinate the hippie movement instead of a specific person.

Yes, scopolamine. It's definitely on the darker side of entheogens.

Not the root, just a tool. I agree as to his role in the discrediting of the movement of the time.

i always wanted to try borderline poisoning myself on nightshade to induce delirium. I wanted to have a real disconnect with reality and actual visual hallucinations of objects and people that didnt exist.

was too afraid to try it though.

Not sure if sarcastic or not. It's not as hit or miss as people say, though it's not something anyone should do who does not have a very serious understanding of the plant and its chemicals.

Also, the consistency of the experience is enough to make you question the reality of the hallucinations for years after.

Scopolamine

Imagine what the CIA might have done with him. Not sure LSD worked out well as a programming aid. Look up Frank Olsen for an interesting story

Worm wood.

Im on episode 3 of wormwood. It's a dope doc. I'm surprised there isn't much discussion in the sub about that doc. It was released a few days ago. Highly recommend!!

I have finished this series and found it amazing it really is an eye opener.. I wasn't sure what to expect of it but I thought personally it was really well put together I love the original clips as well.. I still really don't know what conclusion I came to about this in the end. I feel for eric though it destroyed him as a person

What is it about? Keep seeing it mentioned, if you recommend it I'll sit down and watch it for sure

Watch the trailer on Netflix. It's a Netflix doc. Do you have access to Netflix?

Yes, will check it out with the old lady tonight thanks for the heads up

Thanks

shit, where can I find some of these programmers? Im so used to drugs, they'd have to give me two thumbprints to get me even semi compliant. Id just be having the time of my life, nodding and pretending to listen...

looking for a rusty knife to stab them in the back with so I could steal the rest of their stash as payment due for vigilante justice.

Orange sunshine, the same drug the Hells Angels were on when the killed Meredith Hunter at Altamont.

There's a quote I read once from a Manson follower who said they never bought Manson's death trip preaches until they tried Orange Sunshine.

The Straight Satans MC?

I gotta check this book out. If you get a chance I highly recommend Ed Sanders book The Family: the story of Charles Manson's dune buggy attack battalion. Guy infiltrated Mansons group after the killings. Crazy shit.

https://www.amazon.com/Family-Charles-Mansons-Attack-Battalion/dp/0525103007

You're welcome- This blog series has a lot of great info about Manson and Orange Sunshine:

http://visupview.blogspot.com/2010/12/mans-son-part-i.html

Think about what the Intell community could do with a drug similar to scopolamine

As noted by another above, a meditative mind enhances things which enhance a meditative mind.