I think that the simple cost to get in national parks should give people a clue as to what is going on.

Yeah, it's not like a national park has to pay any employees or do any upkeep, right?

Taxes are what is supposed to keep things running.

Sure. Taxes could also cover the cost of getting your driver's license renewed, eliminate the need for toll roads, and provide universal health care.

That said, a vast chunk of the US population and their representatives are extremely averse to increasing tax revenues and would rather shift the revenue burden onto people who use the services in question.

Furthermore, even if it were covered 100% by tax revenues, during a shutdown there's nobody there to actually mail out the paychecks.

If McConnell is going to object to paying military service members during a shutdown I doubt he is going to pay for park rangers and search and rescue operations in national parks.

I've just now thought about this issue for the first time and I 100% agree with your point of view

Driver's licenses are individually and privately owned. Toll roads are usually privately owned or are tolled in lieu of taxes. Universal healthcare is tricky.

Public land is public land. We have paid for it. The fees are going to employees who upkeep and secure the land. We should still have access to it. Regardless of whatever McConnell or any other politician thinks.

I don't want a bunch of idiots fucking up my parks because there are no rangers there.

Once everyone owns something you don't get the right to do decide how it's taken care of. That's why we have placed a group of people in charge of that in the national park service. And we trust our fellow Americans to be good stewards to the land.

What do you mean we paid for it? We didn't buy Yellowstone from anybody. Driver's licenses aren't privately owned, they're a license given by the state that can be revoked by the state.

There's a cost to keeping it off the market. What I mean about the driver's licenses is that like you and only you can use your drivers license legally.

So you can go to the parks legally, it's a messaging trick? By closed they mean they unmanned?

No your driver's license is the property of the state.

Even your license plates are. In some states you even get your license suspended for not turning in your plates. Toll roads are rarely privately owned if ever. They still receive highway taxes.

What I mean about the driver's licenses is that you and only you can use your drivers license legally.

I don't know about the toll roads. They're on the rise. Here's a source:

https://uspirg.org/sites/pirg/files/reports/Private-Roads-Public-Costs-Updated_1.pdf

disclosure: it's a group of interest groups that are liberal leaning

The real problem is that the vast majority of our taxes go directly to servicing the national debt. The debt based Federal Reserve Note system is robbing us blind. We could have AMAZING taxpayer-funded public services and infrastructure across the board right now if we switched back to a real currency instead of our 105-year Ponzi scheme trash.

Yeah, I disagree. I don't think there is a whole lot of merit in the gold standard, besides the fact it's easier for people to understand.

The real problem is that the vast majority of our taxes go directly to servicing the national debt.

Only 6% of federal spending goes to interest on the debt.

It's really not that simple. It's a really confusing mess, but the bulk of taxes go to purchasing US Treasuries, which really just represent more debt. The 6% number is just the interest on debt held by the public. In contrast, the entire monetary system is built out of intragovernmental holdings. Where does the cash come from when Social Security (for example) sells off Treasury notes? Well it is printed by the Federal Reserve. But what is a FRN really? Well, it's a liability of the Federal Reserve and an obligation of the US government which is backed by the collective holdings of the Federal Reserve, much of which is (you guessed it) more debt.

So I stand by my point. The majority of taxes go to servicing the US debt, including the monetized debt which is the foundation of our monetary system.

What you wrote is nonsense. Can't you just admit you were mistaken?

I wish that I was mistaken, but the entire monetary system is built out of debt, and ultimately this can only lead to more debt. The monetary system is backed by promises which are backed by promises which are backed by promises, and on and on and on. It's a disaster waiting to happen.

That's a different point, and also mistaken.

But it doesn't have anything to do with your original claim that "the vast majority of our taxes go directly to servicing the national debt". That claim is just wrong.

Perhaps I shouldn't have said "directly", but you are hiding behind the inherent obfuscation in the Federal Reserve system. Tax revenues that don't appear to go towards servicing the national debt ultimately go towards more debt.

Taxes are for bomb, bullets, tanks, missles, politicians. Etc. Not for running things.

Did you just have a stroke?

Here, you dropped this /s.

Taxes are for bomb, bullets, tanks, missles, politicians. Etc. Not for running things.

Also for paper, folders, pens, socks, boots, staples, etc. I was in the Guard for over a decade. It's unfortunate that military units must spend all allocated funds or be punished with a lower budget the next year. We couldn't afford to return any funds each year because some years we needed it. Changing that culture alone would, I believe, re-purpose allot of tax dollars. We would have liked to return money some years, but other years we have to have it to meet the standards.

Tanks run over a lot of things homie

People are so dumb downed ad to how are tax funds are misused. We could have so much abundance if the tax money was properly allocated.

People who steal money don't ever "allocate" it well. If they had that ability they'd just leave the money where it is so the person ego sweat for it could decide how to spend it.

You can't get moral acts from immoral people.

The idea of it is annoying. "give us money so we can do whatever we think is best for you"

Build me utilities that are not natural monopolies and are better served without regulatory oversight.

Oh wait.

That's a temporary condition. Are we going to pay taxes forever just because there was a period between 1940 and 2018 when it was more convenient for the government to set up a coal plant than for us to throw a couple turbines on the roof?

Taxes have been going up every year since I was born. Even the few politicians who pretended they were against them didn't lower government spending.

But it's the government. So nobody could reasonably expect a government to use tax money as effectively as a private business. Corruption is inherently built in to the idea of government.

Look at the symbols standing infront of the IRS. Nuff said

You can still visit national parks this time during the shut down:

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/government-shutdown-2018-what-s-open-what-s-closed-n839456

The reality is that slowly over the years much of our public lands have been turned over to the U.N. otherwise known as the Rothschilds. Does anyone remember the old quote from Thomas Jefferson " if the American people ever allow a private bank to its currency the central banks and corporations that rise up around it will leave your children homeless in the streets on the continent your forefathers had conquered". It gives credence to this topic and if you see how our the federal reserve conducts its business you realize it is all to grab up the land to have soveirgn rights to it.

And how about that "public transportation"?

the one you pay for twice?

Yes the one taxes are supposed to pay for but you also pay to ride it

That never made sense to me. It's like paying for cable and still getting commercials, which also makes no sense.

We live in crazy times. Lots of things dont and tend not to make sense any more. But thats Ordo Ab Chaos for you.

We are all just wage slaves to this system.

This. If this doesn't piss off people we are really in trouble.

It's designed to ensure that the public transportation is used only by members of society that will be financially supporting the system. Either going to work or going to shop. Wouldn't want people using public transportation for LEISURE! Haha

I think it's actually just to keep homeless people from using it as their heated moving bedroom, which they do anyway. But that's a whole additional issue.

Which is what I said... Financially supportive members of society. So yes thank you for restating that but as if you were correcting me.

4 times in NY. In spite of having sufficient population density (11 MILLION daily riders on week days) that the MTA should be not just self-sufficient, but profitable, not only have they not updated anything in 50 years, but they can barely keep it operational.

It's paid for by regular taxes, rider fees, advertisements and starting a few years ago, a corporate tax on businesses (and sole proprietors and contractors) operating in the lower NY counties called the MCTMT. The MCTMT was instituted because riders were revolting over the already increasing fares, and because apparently they still couldn't afford proper maintenance, never mind upgrades on hundred year old equipment, that is now failing and causing disruptions and tracks to be shut down.

Part of the problem is that the state government has viewed the MTA budget as a "piggy bank" they can use to fund other things, even while the MTA has been operating at a loss, so they take money from its budget, increasing the short falls. Both Dems and Reps have also cut about 1.5 billion dollars from its budget over the years, and it currently runs at a 900 million dollar deficit - one that wouldn't exist without both parties undermining it.

This has led to deferals of maintenance that's now biting the entire area in the ass, made worse because Amtrak also refuses to do it share of maintenance at Penn station, on what is one of its few actually profitable lines.

Out of curiosity, how much is the fare over there? La metro is 1.75 w/ 2 hrs of free transfers. (0.75 extra go on the freeway)

Depends on which part of the MTA you're talking about, as it controls a lot.

You probably mean the NY City subways, in which case the number you're looking for is most likely $2.75 for one ride. However a single ride ticket without getting a metrocard (you can get them everywhere) is $3. Metrocard has a minimum $5.50 purchase, plus a $1 fee for a new card if you're not refilling one you have, so $6.50 vs $3 if you want just the one ride, $6.50 vs $6 for 2 rides. Weekly unlimited ride tickets are $32 and monthly unlimited rides are $121. There's a whole bunch of programs for discounts also.

LIRR and other rail service tickets can range from as little as under $5, to over $30 one-way depending on how far you're traveling, and whether it's peak travel time or off-peak.

Tolls on the bridges they control range from $2.16 to $17 depending on whether you have ezpass (discount) or not. The Verazano bridge is about $12 for EZpass holders, and $17 to pay by mail. Residents of some areas (Staten Island for the Verazano) pay significantly reduced rates.

Public parks close alk the time for various reasons just because they close doesnt mean its not public.

Thank you, being public does not mean being free for everyone to use however they want. It's actually the exact opposite, it makes it so that people preserve the land and don't build a bunch of shit on top of it.

we live in 1984 because in reality private land is government land and public land is what is normally calle private. Public land is available for the public to own and extract resources from while land not available to the people is private government land, but government likes to sell it's sell as "we the people" so they do the whole up is down, black is white crap.

State government does the samething

Interesting point. From what I've seen, national parks are deeded to the US. Actual public land is deeded to the public.

That's a great book btw, and nice post.

So who's paying the people that will keep the public out? If the rangers are not getting paid, who keeps the park closed?

Based on u/00xjOCMD's comment, nobody.

Yeah, there was just a paper sign put up at the entry gate at Assateague. To sum it up it said, You're allowed to enter, if you get in trouble, no Rangers are here to help you, stay safe.

Shenandoah is open. Went hiking yesterday.

Wait... So I can actually fuck my girlfriend at the park and not have to worry about some prude in a uniform chasing us off?

r/ihavesex

/r/im14andthisisanarchy

I think NPS and Smithsonian had plans to stay open through the weekend. If the government stays shut down, they will probably close the gates.

Utilities.....?

Considering all the dumb asses that get lost or stuck on a mountain or set the whole thing on fire, is it any wonder you can't get on it when there is no help coming for who knows how long?

In a true shutdown, they would just need a sign like "no lifeguard on duty" and let people die.

Hikers and people familiar with nature, know the risk. There is no need for an on call rescue team.

Yeah, so. Making the mountains a military war zone ruins nature.

Seriously. This is flat out not true. The government also has a duty to protect the people.

Same reason meat inspectors are still working. If they let people go in and they got hurt by something normal staff would've cleaned up or kept them away from there's a law suit.

If they let people go in

They don't let them go in, and the parks are already understaffed and it takes tens of thousands of dollars to rescue someone from a park.

What I meant was pretty clear...if they are "open." I also meant OP was flat out not true, not your comment.

Anyone can file a lawsuit. Is it a lawsuit you're likely to win? No.

Everything* is collateral on the debt. The U.S. is a private corporation in debt up to it's ass.

7% a year more or less. Forever.

everything

That's pretty much the gist of it.

I find it amusing they will still pay a ranger to deny people access to the parks. Can't have them sneaking in and recreating while the government is teaching people a lesson.

You can definitely still go on public land and to public monuments. Sometimes, Rangers will put up a simple barrier(happened more under Obama than Trump). I went to Assateague this weekend, nobody stopped me.

Man, I hope campgrounds aren't patrolled by mentally ill, pill head, Prsd inflicted former soldiers that charge people with a felony for making s'mores

2nd Amendment can take care of most of those problems.

Keep the weasels scared? I just want to make s'mores, in the mountains, without being accused of being a terrorist.

I'm not a gun owner, but support that right.

I can respect/appreciate that(gun ownership) I was simply stating that if your concerned about crazies in the woods a firearm is your constitutional right to protect yourself in the absence of a government official if that's what your accustomed to, or prefer.

I heard parks weren’t getting shut down, they’re just not going to maintain them. And they’re free to get in now because no rangers on duty.

I think it might be that the workers on the publicly owned land are paid by the government, but when there is a shutdown they can't be paid. They shutdown the parks because they can't maintain them. Thats how I think of it.

This right here.

This kills me. WE THE PEOPLE gave our politicians the power to decide when we can enjoy some "publicly owned land". If you want that to change, go canvas and campaign for politicians who are willing to change that. The government is only a private institution if you sit around and do nothing to fight for what you believe in.

If you pay taxes on it, you don't own it.

How about Bundy and his friends' cows?

This is an idea... why doesn't everyone occupy the lands and take back whats rightfully the citizens while they can?